Are chimps people too?

[Ezzie.]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/

I've just watched the programme on whether chimps should be given the rights of a human or the rights of a very young human child (1-5 years old)

The evidence he provided was simply amazing, he actually had a conversation with a Bonobo (a type of chimp- one of the most intelligent of it's species tree) He was using a touch pad it must have had about 100 words on minimum, he pressed the touchpad in order to form a sentence.

The presenter asked the bonobo how was he and stuff like that. The chimp replied back and also asked if he would like to play with him. The presenter agreed then the bonobo started playing with him and were having fun and having games just like a little kid would after he'd asked his parents to play..

They also showed that chimps have another human factor, well two actually, culture and teamwork, the teamwork test required two chimps to pull strings on the opposite end of the room which in turn would drag a plate of bananas attatched to the string to them. They did it, and worked as a team..

The next test of culture was a "lifting or poking" test, Chimp a was taught how to retrieve an m&m from this wooden device by poking inside the hole to enable to mechanism for the m&m to be released chimp b was taught the same except he was told to lift the lever.
They put the chimps back with their different community and put the mechanism there, the chimp a was using his prodding technique and chimp b was doing the same, the other chimps in chimp a/b communities started watching chimp a and b and then started to copy and learn what he was doing, developing a "culture" in the group.

If you look on the horizon website you should find the movie somwhere as it was just screened at 9, we share 99.4% of a chimps DNA so what is the other 0.6 percent?

[You]

excellent find + rep

[Ezzie.]

The possible implications of this are very big. Cruelty to chimps and apes could be extremely reduced as they could be classed as homo sapiens

[You]

I like chimps and apes :cool: - hope they treat them like us xP

[velvet]

I watched that. Really interesting and makes you reconsider what you think of as a 'person'

[brandon]

good find.

[Ezzie.]

Spent quite a while typing that up there's a debate going on about it now on http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/

[SHEEPY_luvs_u]

no, they're not. that's why they're called chimps.

[Ezzie.]

You don't understand... Chimps are chimps of couse but they're related to us. It's like I'm called Elliot and you're called sheepy? lol? But we're both human, if you understand me.

[GommeInc]

I would say no. They are a species that act similar to people, but that is just it! They act and have similarities.

[Ezzie.]

If they were classes into the "Human" familly, they would have the right to not be tested on tortured and could defend their rites

[Demynx]

if chimps are treated as humans then...does that mean Monkey presidents?

[entor M]

Nothing there requres any higher brain function, which is what makes humans specal. You could VERY easly get a computer to do all that and a whole lot more. You couldnt get a computer to do what a human can though... well at least not yet

[Ezzie.]

I was expecting you to reply dude :p what's with the new account? Anyways, one of the major points of this "experiment per say" is to prove that chimps are related to humans and share alot of things that we do, this can also prove laws against certain inhumane acts etc. Also if you program a computer it does that which requires a being of intelligence to configure it so that argument is flawed. Susan I think she was called who was raising the certain species of chimp wasn't actually "programming" the chimp like people in hollywood do to chimps to make them perform "tricks" she was guiding them as a mother would do to her children. If you haven't watched the programme I highly recommend all to do so as it's very interesting.

[entor M]

I was expecting you to reply dude :p what's with the new account?
God banned for proveiong to Ostinarto that blood is Red not blue... the quality of the admins here is just on the up and up *cough*


Anyways, one of the major points of this "experiment per say" is to prove that chimps are related to humans and share alot of things that we do, this can also prove laws against certain inhumane acts etc.
Earth worms and bannana are also very simlar to us geneiticly?
And Animal rights laws to exist already.


Also if you program a computer it does that which requires a being of intelligence to configure it so that argument is flawed.
No realy, It is quite possible to write computer software which is capable of learning. if you say the computer program cant be writen as thats cheeting, then being borns cheeting for an ape "/


Susan I think she was called who was raising the certain species of chimp wasn't actually "programming" the chimp like people in hollywood do to chimps to make them perform "tricks" she was guiding them as a mother would do to her children. If you haven't watched the programme I highly recommend all to do so as it's very interesting.
Theres a very fine line, custom and habbit is the main way humans learn also, it requres no higher level thinking for basic comprhention and learning. What makes something centaiant is the abilty to think about thinking... none of this is even relivent to proveing this point, and the chimp still remains none self aware, this is quite easy to prove as well as they lack the frontal lobe which is the part of the brain responcable for all that "/

[Ezzie.]

God banned for proveiong to Ostinarto that blood is Red not blue... the quality of the admins here is just on the up and up *cough*
*sigh* The intellectual capacity of the staff well :) put it this way, I got fired for being ill for a week ^^

Earth worms and bannana are also very simlar to us geneiticly?
And Animal rights laws to exist already.

True in fact bananas have a 16% genetical trait to ours and mice have a 94% if I can Remember right.


No realy, It is quite possible to write computer software which is capable of learning. if you say the computer program cant be writen as thats cheeting, then being borns cheeting for an ape "/

Whilst this is true a computer can only do a set amount of tasks it's artificial. the computer technically only has a certain amount of space to learn, a living sentient being has an almost infinite capacity to learn and adapt. Also computers don't develop cultural habits, mating rituals, etc etc.

Theres a very fine line, custom and habbit is the main way humans learn also, it requres no higher level thinking for basic comprhention and learning. What makes something centaiant is the abilty to think about thinking... none of this is even relivent to proveing this point, and the chimp still remains none self aware, this is quite easy to prove as well as they lack the frontal lobe which is the part of the brain responcable for all that "/

The researchers went into the jungle, they observed a group of senior chimps sitting around in a circle eating, if a female got near they got extremely irritated and shouted them off, if a child came near to them they would allow them to crawl all over them as they had the intellect to realise that the children were just "playing" and were not to be harmed.
Leading scientists who were interviewed at a certain conference or somthing or other and they all blatently said that in no way a chimpanzee is considering a member of the same tree as of a human's. Some people are so close minded that they are almost "threatened" that an ever evolving sentient being is acting more human like everyday. I use the term humanlike very loosely of course, humans and chimpanzees will always be different but they're showing alot of the factors of an "intelligent being"

[entor M]

Whilst this is true a computer can only do a set amount of tasks it's artificial. the computer technically only has a certain amount of space to learn, a living sentient being has an almost infinite capacity to learn and adapt. Also computers don't develop cultural habits, mating rituals, etc etc.

The Human Brain has a capasity which is roughly 3 petabytes.. Massivly more than computers at the moment, but theres already more **** than that on the net, to put it in prospective "/
Computers Can learn alot more than there made out to be able to. Even when given no real instructions at all. You create a small robot, its only task not to hit a wall and to keep moveing, combined with an abilty to work out if something works or doesnt.
First few trys it runs in to wall or does things randomly, Evenetaly it will figure out methods to deal with the problem. Have 30 robots doing the same, many of them will come up with differnt methods to the others. So this realy is indveridal learning on there part "/ The more advanced the computer, the more abilty to learn it can pick up "/
Mimicing humans though is easy, so leanring by copying doesnt actualy realy requre any advanced fucntion even in computing terms "/


The researchers went into the jungle, they observed a group of senior chimps sitting around in a circle eating, if a female got near they got extremely irritated and shouted them off, if a child came near to them they would allow them to crawl all over them as they had the intellect to realise that the children were just "playing" and were not to be harmed.

This is simple instinct, ants can do that o.0

Leading scientists who were interviewed at a certain conference or somthing or other and they all blatently said that in no way a chimpanzee is considering a member of the same tree as of a human's. Some people are so close minded that they are almost "threatened" that an ever evolving sentient being is acting more human like everyday. I use the term humanlike very loosely of course, humans and chimpanzees will always be different but they're showing alot of the factors of an "intelligent being"

Not realy there showing basic learning fasilitys, which if used and requred in there every day life, will eventaly lead to the slow immergance of higher thinking, as did with humans, as human life slowly became more complex, so did are minds, higher functions are what allowed us to do this. If another life form gets the same challenge following our route is not unlikly "/ But at current i dont belive theres anything to suggest higher functions "/

[Ezzie.]

I'm afraid at quarter past twelve by brain has died and partially ascended to heaven so I will get back to you tomorrow when it's come back down to hell

[Kpod]

Well there Brainy, and reports shown a few weeks ago that chimps could walk etc like us & probs talk.

[additional]

Intersting this was. Nice information.

[GJay]

Of course chimps act human - they are who we came from.

Actually...chimps are more intelligent than some humans xD

[Ezzie.]

The Human Brain has a capasity which is roughly 3 petabytes.. Massivly more than computers at the moment, but theres already more **** than that on the net, to put it in prospective "/
Computers Can learn alot more than there made out to be able to. Even when given no real instructions at all. You create a small robot, its only task not to hit a wall and to keep moveing, combined with an abilty to work out if something works or doesnt.
First few trys it runs in to wall or does things randomly, Evenetaly it will figure out methods to deal with the problem. Have 30 robots doing the same, many of them will come up with differnt methods to the others. So this realy is indveridal learning on there part "/ The more advanced the computer, the more abilty to learn it can pick up "/
Mimicing humans though is easy, so leanring by copying doesnt actualy realy requre any advanced fucntion even in computing terms "/

I never said the chimps were "copying" so to say they were learning from their other community members and also the bobonos were learning from the woman who was acting as their parental figure. Also a robot is programmed to learn still, if you put a robot in the middle of a jungle with all parts in place and don't turn the switch on what would it do? :rolleyes: Kinda flaws the idea that robots can adapt and learn as if the switch was never turned on in the first place they're pointless...
Saying that a robot has the same learning capacity and adaptability as a sentient being is extremely out of whack.
The difference between a male and female "programming" a child is that this has been done millions upon millions of times before so the process is almost perfect..
But you seem to be going off topic now talking more about them in comparison to robots...

This is simple instinct, ants can do that o.0

Ants follow each other using trails of their scent? yes that's quite evolved... I was talking about the chimps understanding each other and not harming their young, if you're saying that is simple instinct then what about in certain species the father does his upmost to eat his young... I believe this happens with bears. So it being simple instinct is wrong. It's called a primitive society.

Not realy there showing basic learning fasilitys, which if used and requred in there every day life, will eventaly lead to the slow immergance of higher thinking, as did with humans, as human life slowly became more complex, so did are minds, higher functions are what allowed us to do this. If another life form gets the same challenge following our route is not unlikly "/ But at current i dont belive theres anything to suggest higher functions "

Question, have you actually watched the Horizon show yet? It shows a hell of alot of evidence against the stiff minded.. Ok lets go through a checklist..

Can chimps work together in a society: Yes
Do they have culture: Yes
Can they use language This doesn't class as the basic form of communication. : Yes
Can they feel fear and pain?: Yes

Again I really advise you to watch the programme if you haven't already.

[Dan2nd]

hmmm I agree that chimps should be treated corretly but not have te same rights as humans what if a chimp attacked and killeda small child would they get put in prison? not a good idea :p

[^.^]

it cant independantly speak for itself and can only do very basic tasks, so its not exactly a person.

[entor M]

I never said the chimps were "copying" so to say they were learning from their other community members and also the bobonos were learning from the woman who was acting as their parental figure. Also a robot is programmed to learn still, if you put a robot in the middle of a jungle with all parts in place and don't turn the switch on what would it do? :rolleyes: Kinda flaws the idea that robots can adapt and learn as if the switch was never turned on in the first place they're pointless...

If you place a random lump of organic matter on the floor its not going to do a whole much better, animals are programed to in a sence, via the information in the DNA. The only real differnce is we supply the porgraming for the computer, the parent animal supplys it from the animal. We could easly make a computer that could make and program another... well nearly all computers already do, in the sence of compieling a program so it will work "/



Saying that a robot has the same learning capacity and adaptability as a sentient being is extremely out of whack.
Give it enough time they will probably suppas humans by some way, Sentients isnt somthing that just an organic lifeform can have. Quantom computing, although therotical could easly allow it, useing the computing analogy, thats how are brains are programed. Only this would be created by us, insted of the result of billions of years of eveolution "/

The difference between a male and female "programming" a child is that this has been done millions upon millions of times before so the process is almost perfect..
But you seem to be going off topic now talking more about them in comparison to robots...
Humans are far from perfect? nore is any life on this planet "/

The point being, computers now are NOT, sentiant, by any stretch, they are very simple, they have no higher thoughs, there not self awre. Yet in an equal test could do everything a chimp could, or at least you said a chimp could.
Performing tasks does not requre any higher function, abstract thinking and philopshisng on the other hand does "/



Ants follow each other using trails of their scent? yes that's quite evolved... I was talking about the chimps understanding each other and not harming their young, if you're saying that is simple instinct then what about in certain species the father does his upmost to eat his young...
Theres good reason for it, if theres a preditor, and theres no proper escape, the young will be killed an eaten by it. The animal may as well get the nutriants, and not let the preditor have it. Its instinct. A bear will also protect its young, and have socal structures just as advanced as any in the ape world "/


Question, have you actually watched the Horizon show yet? It shows a hell of alot of evidence against the stiff minded.. Ok lets go through a checklist..
Its not avaible to watch ahveing happened before i knew it was on.
horrison shows are famous for the bias, and single sided evidance.


Can chimps work together in a society: Yes
You need proof here, none has been provided.
Do they have culture: Yes
still no evidance, claims are usless without it
Can they use language This doesn't class as the basic form of communication. : Yes
Apes dont communicate in any more advnaced way than a mear cat, or even a tabby cat. theres also still no proof
Can they feel fear and pain?: Yes
Fear is an instinctal reaction, not a conuise one even in humans... and anything with a sence receptors can exsperince pain.

Again I really advise you to watch the programme if you haven't already.
Its not on, so isnt an option "/

[Ezzie.]

Try youtube/google vids or the actual website, they provided evidence to:


Can chimps work together in a society: Yes
You need proof here, none has been provided.
Do they have culture: Yes
still no evidance, claims are usless without it
Can they use language This doesn't class as the basic form of communication. : Yes
Apes dont communicate in any more advnaced way than a mear cat, or even a tabby cat. theres also still no proof
Can they feel fear and pain?: Yes
Fear is an instinctal reaction, not a conuise one even in humans... and anything with a sence receptors can exsperince pain.

Again I really advise you to watch the programme if you haven't already.
Its not on, so isnt an option "/

But I agree that it is quite a bias programme and the presenter knows **** all about science but the evidence the real scientists provided was quite amazing.

Also on the online debate thing that was on afterwards they were discussing whether chimps could philosophise and think abstractly, the "experts" were a little stumped on that one, one reason could be that they are so busy eating (as chimps eat practically all day) but I guess we'll know in time if this is being further investigated.