Over-Zellus Modding?

[Mentor]

Rather than making a ****zy rant about the problem as some people seem to think is the answer, which will just result in the repetition of the problem itself, ive decided to try and put down the problem with the infractions system more clearly.

Since the system has been introduced, an infraction carries less weight hence are given easier, in most cases to easily, and for things where they are not really appropriate.
The problem was responded to with the update of rule

"C18. Do not make off topic posts - Off topic and random posts are not allowed. Your post must be related to a post made earlier in the thread or about the thread itself."

In which the bolded clause was added, Basically stating that posts could relate to subtopics arriseing from the central topic. Aka someone makes a topic about there favorite cerial. people are then allowed to discuss other cerial, as its related, of praphs another issue todo with the ceral? this is how a conversation, even on a forum works.
This isnt a support forum, this is a community, or at least thats what ive always taken it as, hence the idea isnt to make ask a question, get it answered and finish. But instead raise a discussion point "a topic" then discuss it and things that come out from it"

Heres where the first problem arrises, since certain modoraters feel its there solum duty to go threw a thread and infarct every member who has made a post even slightly deviating from the core topic, and then every member who responds to that, exsample being a certain return topic, in which people began talking about what habbox was like when they were there, i come back to it minutes later, theres a red line on every post.
I think there needs to be more discression in where these infractions are given.

Now, theres a reason forums have moderators, people who check posts, as opposed to an alogruthm that automatically scans and makes judgements. That reason is mod's are human, they can make informed choices, or at least i would hope they can.
Hence, while a machine would infract someone who may have accidentally made a spelling mistake and not noticed, a mod, wouldnt not. When someone accidenly double posts, we've all done it, laggy networks often the blame, it would also infract them, but a mod wouldnt...

Well on habbox this isnt true, mods infract people even when it obviously isnt there fault, a mod should be able to make the distinction here, whether someone has simply made an honest mistake or has broken a rule. Not just mindlessly adding infractions to anyone who does anything that doesn't directly adhere to rules.
There are alot of edits, where they are truly uncalled for, in one topic, questioning this issue, someone defending a mod got infractcted by them for exsample after an obviously honest mistake?

I mean, is the problem here mods that mods are maybe not gieven enough leniancy to make desisons based on the circumsatnces? or that the mods hired are not really fit for a job that requres thought that goes beoned what a few lines of php could do "/

Point being, i Feel the system should be relooked at by admins, and ajusted to better fit the needs of the community.
The Mods job, is help the community run smoothly. Not to jam the works, thats what the spammers do, and the mods are supposed to stop.

The moderators should be respected, fair and able to make proper choices, in many cases this just doesn't appear to be true, hence why its almost Mods V Members at the moment, which is as far from what it should be as its possible to get without the forum totally collapsing.
The moderators should be chosen not just because of a clean record, but becuse they have respect within the community and are an active part of it, not people no one has ever heard of and whos only contribution is a few red lines on peoples posts.

This is just my opinion, but i feel i have made a number of valid points. I hope that at least some of it is taken in to consideration.

[Catzsy]

Well it is a well structured post but have you any specific examples to support what you say i.e. links where you feel the mods have been over zealous?
I would say recently since the introduction of the simplified and much less strict off topic rule that things seem to have been a lot more relaexed on the forum but would be interested to see the threads/posts you are talking about. :)

[Mentor]

Well for one, i do currently have a infraction for offtopic posting after defending myself becuse someone insulted me, Although the mod in question was only on trial, and i dont belive passed so that doesnt really work so well.

The easiest to find exsample is the one of the user defending the moderators, then getting punished for what i see as clearly a mistake. I think this is often forgotten by many mods/admins who have the luxuray of being able to delete these themselves.

http://habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=266136&page=2#postmenu_2570728

That responce after defending a mod, isnt going to help reinforce his first post is it really.

Alot of this was inspired by genral browsing and just repeatedly seeing these things around and many of the specific exsamples arnt as up to date and hence hard to find.
Which has remined me of a futher problem ive noted, i havent seen this recently, but i have often come across moved threads, where the move was quite inapproprite. Aka when the mod moves them without actualy checking what there about, and they end up in the wrong place.
In the return thread im looking for (cant find currenly) worse still i think i remember the posted also got an infraction for posting in the wrong forum, even though it was moved there by another mod "/ *i may be wrong here - my memoery isnt especaly good alot of the time*

[Colin-Roberts]

Which has remined me of a futher problem ive noted, i havent seen this recently, but i have often come across moved threads, where the move was quite inapproprite. Aka when the mod moves them without actualy checking what there about, and they end up in the wrong place.
In the return thread im looking for (cant find currenly) worse still i think i remember the posted also got an infraction for posting in the wrong forum, even though it was moved there by another mod "/ *i may be wrong here - my memoery isnt especaly good alot of the time*

yes i seem to remember a couple of those threads ill look for them to later and mentor youve made alot of good points frankly the mods with the exception of mad wich isnt a mod are horrible.

[BL!NKEY]

I think it was a good structured post with good points.

I agree that if someone double posts with the exact same post the same minute it shouldnt be a infraction. Maybe a mod could delete the 2nd post.

I agree with the community thing also.

But also if you are careful you can avoid infractions. I have never gotton infracted (once but was reversed) I think because I rarly make short 2-3 word posts which dont help the convertation.

If all of your posts contribute to the convertation then you should be fine. The off topic rule was changed but I dont think it should be changed more. We dont want people to post about selling a red amber then say PS: I just took a shower

and someone else posting OMG how was the shower I bet you were neked

and it going off topic from there.

I think the mods are doing a good job now after the recent clause.

[Mentor]

If all of your posts contribute to the convertation then you should be fine. The off topic rule was changed but I dont think it should be changed more. We dont want people to post about selling a red amber then say PS: I just took a shower
Im not really asking for that to be changed, more for what it says to be better understood by certain moderators, many probably are good at there job, and do have an understanding of the rules, the problem is not all of them.

My main argument is, phraps if its not the case already, more power should be given to mod's, so they can use there own discression in order to determin whether infracting a post is actually the apporpirate action. Hence meaning the actions taken will be done on a more case by case basis and from this be far more relivant to the situration, and remove problems with them being unfair.
The only problem with this is, is that it places more responcabilty on the mod, aka they actualy have to be able to weaigh up a situation and make informed choices, insted of getting by, by simply acting as a mindless drone "/
Which i do personaly feel Some mods are doing, im refraining from nameing names, but there are mods that stand out to me as often infracting in alot of very unnecessary situations, and in my eyes doing the wrong thing, and leads to members resenting the mods as a whole, as in most cases, the Moderators are lumped together, even if only one mod is doing things wrong, the rest will also be seen as to blame much of the time.


Another point (i keep comeing up with more) is maybe there should be more weight to the appropriteness of mods to the forums there given. As thinking of the webdeisgn forums, most of the mods on it NEVER or at least Very rairly use the webdesign forums, have any idea of anything to do in that forum, and dont interact with its members. (im sure other forums also have simlar problems)
Haveing mods which know the subject of the forum they are moderating i do think would be helpful, and makes moderation less of a chore and insted just an action of dayly forum life, while your posting around etc "/
Just a though :p

[:Jamie]

Another point (i keep comeing up with more) is maybe there should be more weight to the appropriteness of mods to the forums there given. As thinking of the webdeisgn forums, most of the mods on it NEVER or at least Very rairly use the webdesign forums, have any idea of anything to do in that forum, and dont interact with its members. (im sure other forums also have simlar problems)
Haveing mods which know the subject of the forum they are moderating i do think would be helpful, and makes moderation less of a chore and insted just an action of dayly forum life, while your posting around etc "/
Just a though :p

I understand what you mean here, runescape forum only has mods who have an interest in the game and posts quite often. Been annoying in the past when mods get added and have no idea about the game and started moving threads etc to places where they don't go.

I think trial mods need to be given help when there on trial and a bit of advice on how there doing by the asst forum managers.

Good structured post and you made some good points.

[Move-Along-fnx-]

Rather than making a ****zy rant about the problem as some people seem to think is the answer, which will just result in the repetition of the problem itself, ive decided to try and put down the problem with the infractions system more clearly.

Since the system has been introduced, an infraction carries less weight hence are given easier, in most cases to easily, and for things where they are not really appropriate.
The problem was responded to with the update of rule

"C18. Do not make off topic posts - Off topic and random posts are not allowed. Your post must be related to a post made earlier in the thread or about the thread itself."

In which the bolded clause was added, Basically stating that posts could relate to subtopics arriseing from the central topic. Aka someone makes a topic about there favorite cerial. people are then allowed to discuss other cerial, as its related, of praphs another issue todo with the ceral? this is how a conversation, even on a forum works.
This isnt a support forum, this is a community, or at least thats what ive always taken it as, hence the idea isnt to make ask a question, get it answered and finish. But instead raise a discussion point "a topic" then discuss it and things that come out from it"

Heres where the first problem arrises, since certain modoraters feel its there solum duty to go threw a thread and infarct every member who has made a post even slightly deviating from the core topic, and then every member who responds to that, exsample being a certain return topic, in which people began talking about what habbox was like when they were there, i come back to it minutes later, theres a red line on every post.
I think there needs to be more discression in where these infractions are given.

Now, theres a reason forums have moderators, people who check posts, as opposed to an alogruthm that automatically scans and makes judgements. That reason is mod's are human, they can make informed choices, or at least i would hope they can.
Hence, while a machine would infract someone who may have accidentally made a spelling mistake and not noticed, a mod, wouldnt not. When someone accidenly double posts, we've all done it, laggy networks often the blame, it would also infract them, but a mod wouldnt...

Well on habbox this isnt true, mods infract people even when it obviously isnt there fault, a mod should be able to make the distinction here, whether someone has simply made an honest mistake or has broken a rule. Not just mindlessly adding infractions to anyone who does anything that doesn't directly adhere to rules.
There are alot of edits, where they are truly uncalled for, in one topic, questioning this issue, someone defending a mod got infractcted by them for exsample after an obviously honest mistake?

I mean, is the problem here mods that mods are maybe not gieven enough leniancy to make desisons based on the circumsatnces? or that the mods hired are not really fit for a job that requres thought that goes beoned what a few lines of php could do "/

Point being, i Feel the system should be relooked at by admins, and ajusted to better fit the needs of the community.
The Mods job, is help the community run smoothly. Not to jam the works, thats what the spammers do, and the mods are supposed to stop.

The moderators should be respected, fair and able to make proper choices, in many cases this just doesn't appear to be true, hence why its almost Mods V Members at the moment, which is as far from what it should be as its possible to get without the forum totally collapsing.
The moderators should be chosen not just because of a clean record, but becuse they have respect within the community and are an active part of it, not people no one has ever heard of and whos only contribution is a few red lines on peoples posts.

This is just my opinion, but i feel i have made a number of valid points. I hope that at least some of it is taken in to consideration.


100% agree with all of it especially the bold bit. Possibly the best arguementetive thread i have seen.

[---MAD---]

Hey,
I would like to first say, well done on making a sensible post instead of saying "OMGZ MODS ARE POWER FREAK, KILL THEM ALL". You have come around it in a sensible manner, god bless you :p.

Anyway, about the topic:
I agree a few things need changing even further. The off topic infraction removal was the first step forward. So many infractions were given for off topic posts before and it was no longer seeming to be a community, more of a school where you can only say what the teacher is on about or w/e and thats boring (if you have been to school, you will know it is ;)).

Sometimes its also quite hard for a moderator to decide on things, some also think that every single rule break should be logged (ie double posting). Most of the double posts are accidents. I usually look at the persons infractions log seeing if they have been spamming or whatever before, if not then the person doesnt really deserve to be infractioned unless its very obvious that he/she is doing it to annoy everyone or to bump an old thread of his/hers.

I think moderators are under a lot of pressure seeming every small thing they do, someone makes a thread about. The good thing is you havent mentioned any names or direct thread cases, which means no moderator is targetted (or I should hope not :p).

Anyway, thanks for telling us about this, there will be more changes made in the very near future, for the mean time, simply report any unfair infractions or if you think a mod is being very unfair, report him to forum management (myself, ostinato, a4aowen or seacat) and if nothing is done and you think its extremely serious, report him to sierk (last resort though as hes always busy with other problems ;)).

Also: If anyone has noticed this, a respectful thread with good points as such as is given respect back instead of locked and ignored ;). Maybe mentor is teaching us all a lesson :o.

[:Jamie]

Also I think moderator reports are a bad idea, as we try to get alot of moderator logs to keep our jobs so therefore we try our best to get enough mod logs to not make it look like we are slacking. (We also don't have a chance/choice to comment on our reports to say why we have a low mod log count)

[darkchicken101]

Also I think moderator reports are a bad idea, as we try to get alot of moderator logs to keep our jobs so therefore we try our best to get enough mod logs to not make it look like we are slacking. (We also don't have a chance/choice to comment on our reports to say why we have a low mod log count)

That's like parking wardens that get a bonus for each ticket they give. Drivers got mad because of unfair tickets. That's basically what it's like here.

[---MAD---]

Mod reports have been changed to take into consideration the forums being moderatorated and the moderators actions in the forum (not just moderatoring, includes helping, etc however I am not sure of the full list, contact ostinato for that :p).

[Mentor]

As an exsample of problems relating to moderators with no subject knowlage being assignd to certain forums, http://habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=268414

Basicly (it actualy happens alot) the people in the topic decided to switch conversation to binary, which 99% of the people who actualy use the forum can quite easly decode, although by the looks of it the modertor could not hence has deemed it spam, this has actualy happened on a few threads before "/

[Nixt]

I am sure Moderators in that category do try their very best, but you have to understand it is very difficult to Moderate the forums to the best of their ability if they don't understand some of the posts made in that category.

[J1MI]

Dear 01101101entor,

You have very little faith in the knowledge of the moderators, I dont see why you have a problem with this thread being closed if you can decode binary you would know that this post:


01010000 01110010 01101111 01100010 01110011 00100000 01110111 01101001 01101100 01101100 00101110 00100000 01010111 01100101 01101100 01101100 00101100 00100000 01000110 01110101 01100011 01101011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100110 01110101 01100011 01101011 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01101101 01101111 01100100 01110011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01101110 00100000 01110011 01101000 01100001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00111111

Is against forum rules, as many of the posts are.

[Mentor]

I am sure Moderators in that category do try their very best, but you have to understand it is very difficult to Moderate the forums to the best of their ability if they don't understand some of the posts made in that category.

Which was more my point, that the moderators should be assign forums of which they have subject knowledge?


Dear 01101101entor,

You have very little faith in the knowledge of the moderators, I dont see why you have a problem with this thread being closed if you can decode binary you would know that this post:


Is against forum rules, as many of the posts are.
Avoiding the filter is against the forum rules? Its kinda contradictory to then post them yourself if your gonna tell people off for it?
But because one member is swearing uselly results in them getting an infraction, just as it would if they were typing in normal English? not the thread in which a user as broken a rule in getting locked "/
I don't have a whole lot of faith in my English teachers knowledge of quantom mechanics ether, that doesn't mean i have little faith in there knowledge, just not of the particular subject of quantom mechanics, same applys here, you may know your job as a moderator well, or be espelcay knowledgeable in many subjects, that doesnt mean i should exspect you to be fluent in PERL now does it "/

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