Praying and How It Helps (Or Most likely Doesn't) [Archive]

Mentor

08-12-2006, 09:32 PM

Caution

08-12-2006, 09:35 PM

I don't pray, I always say I will - And never do.:P
But I wouldn't say it's stupid or anything:)

DJ-Ali

08-12-2006, 09:35 PM

When I pray (Rare for me) I pray about something good that will happan to me/freinds/family. And it happans. I don't really believe in God though. -.-'

Dan2nd

08-12-2006, 09:42 PM

Depends on your type of preying, preying for forgiveness etc ok, its there choice.

The thing i do feel is stupid is preying for things, preying to solve problems, as it directly contradicts a good 2/3 of all christan teaching and moral values?

Christanty has a concept of a perfect god yes?

So god must have already made the perfect decision already?

If you preying for somthing or to solve, that must mean god has done something wrong, but hes perfect, so he has already taken the right action.

The only reason you would ever need to prey is if you want god to change his mind, So you must ether want god to do somthing Evil or bad? or are accepting god has done somthing wrong and isnt perfect?

Hence since god alrady knows the problems and has already made the perfect desion on everything preying is complety and utterly pointless useless and a Bad thing becuse your trying to subvert gods "perfect" will.

I googled it hope this helps..

to give an example, a child asks his mother for a cookie and doesn’t get one. So his little friend says, “You request didn’t work.” That is how the world views prayer. What actually happens is the child asks for a cookie, and his mother says, “No.” If the child is insightful, he realizes that if he got the cookie, it would spoil his appetite for dinner, which he cannot see being prepared, and not having eaten a proper dinner, he would awaken hungry in the night. In that way, prayer is our spiritual eyesight. Through prayer, our discernment is perfected and our spiritual maturity is hastened.

God, like our mothers, sometimes says No out of love, when it impedes a greater providence that lies ahead.

don't really get it my self but you might

Tiuhdur

09-12-2006, 01:41 PM

A While ago I got into a charged Debate in Sukia with a girl who was shouting about how Jesus is real and we should all repent for our sins and Pry forgiveness. Balderdash (to put it lightly) I think that Praying is for people who don't have the capacity to solve their own problems. What say You Dudes?

thats actually quite blasphemous

Eamonn

09-12-2006, 02:18 PM

I pray for guidance from God.

YoManGo!

09-12-2006, 02:57 PM

I pray for guidance from God.

Oh he's so unreliable isn't he? He stopped returning my calls years ago!

Browney

09-12-2006, 03:27 PM

Mentor

09-12-2006, 03:43 PM

I googled it hope this helps..

don't really get it my self but you might
No, the arguement is actualy not even about the same point im makeing?

The point is a common defence of why god doesnt answer are preyers, but the actaul argument if carred to its proper comcuslion also comes to the decsion preying is stupid and pointless.

If the child was insigtful to start, he wouldnt have asked to have the cookie to start with would he, since he knows if he was able to have the cookie, his mother would have given it to him?

Or maybe not, since his mother isnt perfect hence needs suggestions or certain things may be forgotten, but god IS PERFECT, so wouldnt forget, so asking him to do somthing is saying you think he is incapable of doing the correct thing himself, hence your idea must not be of the true god.

I pray for guidance from God.
But gods perfect, if he wanted you to have the guidance hed have already given it to you.

Dan2nd

09-12-2006, 08:27 PM

I only ever prayed once. It was for my grandma when she was in hospital. Then she died. Ever since then I've lost my faith in god. And that faith will never make up for taking one of the dearest people to me. As the moment I'm Athiest at heart, but I was christianed as a baby.

But why would God want to stop one of his people from getting to heven? People always say if God was perfect he would do *insert here* the thing is he gave us free will if I prayed for money and he gave it to me wouldn't he be controling (sp?) my future by doing this? and wouldn't this mean my freewill was gone? You can apply this to anything if I asked for my dieing grand parent to live this would be effecting their destiny and again their freewill

gods perfect, if he wanted you to have the guidance hed have already given it to you.

I think God is already giving me guidence he can give it to anyone who excepts him.

Dan2nd

09-12-2006, 08:29 PM

Sorry double posted delete please

Mentor

09-12-2006, 09:00 PM

But why would God want to stop one of his people from getting to heven? People always say if God was perfect he would do *insert here* the thing is he gave us free will if I prayed for money and he gave it to me wouldn't he be controling (sp?) my future by doing this?
Why would he need to, hes perfect, he doesnt need to control the feature to be able to predict it perfectly. If he didnt find a £10 to start with, preying isnt going to change it so you did.
If you did find a £10 god must have already been planning it, else that would mean a preyer changed his mind, which could only happen if he wasnt perfect?

and wouldn't this mean my freewill was gone? You can apply this to anything if I asked for my dieing grand parent to live this would be effecting their destiny and again their freewill
LMAO. Reread what you just said, you only have a destiny if you are predetermined, hence DONT have free will. If you had freewill theres NO SUCH THING as destiny... You just contradicted yourself, not me.

I think God is already giving me guidence he can give it to anyone who excepts him.
So you agree with the topics starter then? God is for people who cant do things on there own and have to rely on gods guidence "/

RedStratocas

09-12-2006, 09:12 PM

LMAO. Reread what you just said, you only have a destiny if you are predetermined, hence DONT have free will. If you had freewill theres NO SUCH THING as destiny... You just contradicted yourself, not me.

Pure ownage. Youre right, its impossible to believe in destiny AND free will.

I dont mind people praying, if it makes you feel good and if you think its good for your soul, go ahead. But people praying for money and physical things, and people who go to praying as a first priority when something they feel isnt going their way is wrong.

Mentor

09-12-2006, 09:20 PM

Pure ownage. Youre right, its impossible to believe in destiny AND free will.
Well unless you belive in hume and his contemporys "/
Although his idea of freewill, not to mention a few other things, dont really conform with what people usealy mean by them "/

I dont mind people praying, if it makes you feel good and if you think its good for your soul, go ahead. But people praying for money and physical things, and people who go to praying as a first priority when something they feel isnt going their way is wrong.

If they actualy belived in god, they would know god is perfect, and wouldnt be asking for him to do anything or change anything becuse they would know already his decision was the perfect and good one.

YoManGo!

09-12-2006, 09:43 PM

Even as a non religious person, I can see how praying can help people on a spiritual side, to help them, just give them someone to talk to.

Of course praying for someone to live doesn't work, Christianity teaches that God chooses when it's your time to die, if someone's dying in Hosptial then it means God has chosen their time. That's if he exists, which he probably doesn't...

Dan2nd

09-12-2006, 09:49 PM

LMAO. Reread what you just said, you only have a destiny if you are predetermined, hence DONT have free will. If you had freewill theres NO SUCH THING as destiny... You just contradicted yourself, not me.

I mean death... :rolleyes: Everyone dies in the end and either goes to heven or hell ( well thats what I beleve) thats what i meant by destiny and its our free will and the choices we make which directs us to our last day on Earth so I don't think i was contridicting myself at all unless your suggesting we don't die? I think you knew what I meant and was just trying to find something to proove the point wrong =l

So you agree with the topics starter then? God is for people who cant do things on there own and have to rely on gods guidence "/

no the topic starter said people who pray can't sort their own problems

I think guidence and probelms are diffrent

[B]Pure ownage.

lol yes I got owned of course.... :rolleyes:

RedStratocas

09-12-2006, 09:59 PM

If they actualy belived in god, they would know god is perfect, and wouldnt be asking for him to do anything or change anything becuse they would know already his decision was the perfect and good one.

Many people dont have that logic, thus why I hate it when people do that.

Mentor

09-12-2006, 10:06 PM

I mean death... :rolleyes: Everyone dies in the end and either goes to heven or hell ( well thats what I beleve) thats what i meant by destiny and its our free will and the choices we make which directs us to our last day on Earth so I don't think i was contridicting myself at all unless your suggesting we don't die? I think you knew what I meant and was just trying to find something to proove the point wrong =l
You are still contradicting yourself, free will, is freedom of the will, it doesnt effect the causal realtions of exstrnal events, that has nothing to do with destinty, destiny is predetermination of the will, the idea that are will is unable to effect exstranal events, thats like saying its impossible to wave my arm, becuse i wasnt "destined" to... i can wave my arm quite easly when i will it.
Someone is never destined to die, since being destined to would mean they would have to die at an exsact time in an exsact was that was predetermined. They may die one day, or the next, or have life saveing surgery and not die for many years "/

no the topic starter said people who pray can't sort their own problems

I think guidence and probelms are diffrent
Why would you need guidence if you didnt have problems?

Dan2nd

09-12-2006, 10:20 PM

Many people dont have that logic, thus why I hate it when people do that.

So you hate it when people pray? I don't get that :s

You are still contradicting yourself, free will, is freedom of the will, it doesnt effect the causal realtions of exstrnal events, that has nothing to do with destinty, destiny is predetermination of the will, the idea that are will is unable to effect exstranal events, thats like saying its impossible to wave my arm, becuse i wasnt "destined" to... i can wave my arm quite easly when i will it.
Someone is never destined to die, since being destined to would mean they would have to die at an exsact time in an exsact was that was predetermined. They may die one day, or the next, or have life saveing surgery and not die for many years "/

Why would you need guidence if you didnt have problems?

Yes but everyone is still destined to death did I say on a certain day? I don't think I did maybe I chose the wrong choice of words ...

Guidence can be used in a problem but when I pray I seek guidence towards heven. I'm not suggesting others don't ask God to fix their problems because they most proberly do I was just saying what I do.

I pray because prayer is powerful and it moves God’s heart.

Mentor

09-12-2006, 10:58 PM

Guidence can be used in a problem but when I pray I seek guidence towards heven. I'm not suggesting others don't ask God to fix their problems because they most proberly do I was just saying what I do.
So its to solve the problem of hell, you needing help to get in to heven becuse you dont think god is good enough to already provide all the help you requre?

I pray because prayer is powerful and it moves God’s heart.
Ok... every point i made for the last few pages? i take it you didnt read any right? i wasnt sure the logic was getting threw, now im definite it isnt.

God is perfect?

Yes?

A perfect god makes perfect choices?

yes?

Move gods heart/changeing his mind, means go did not make a perfect descion?

yes?

So since god is perfect you cannot change his mind (move his heart)

yes?

Well that or god has been perswaed to do a less perfect act, evil maybe, or he made a mistake... ether way it couldnt be god if it was becuse its trade of IMPERFECTION?

So preyer serves no purpos and is illogical?

yes?

and in fact is an affront to god, since it implys hes not perfect and not doing his job right (perfectly)

yes.

Dan2nd

10-12-2006, 01:06 PM

So its to solve the problem of hell, you needing help to get in to heven becuse you dont think god is good enough to already provide all the help you requre?

Ok... every point i made for the last few pages? i take it you didnt read any right? i wasnt sure the logic was getting threw, now im definite it isnt.

God is perfect?

Yes?

A perfect god makes perfect choices?

yes?

Move gods heart/changeing his mind, means go did not make a perfect descion?

yes?

So since god is perfect you cannot change his mind (move his heart)

yes?

Well that or god has been perswaed to do a less perfect act, evil maybe, or he made a mistake... ether way it couldnt be god if it was becuse its trade of IMPERFECTION?

So preyer serves no purpos and is illogical?

yes?

and in fact is an affront to god, since it implys hes not perfect and not doing his job right (perfectly)

yes.

Lol you can have as many tantrums about this as you like and yes I have read your previous posts but why should your posts alter what I think is true? you said many times prayer is pointless, so that means I'm meant to giveup a life time of beleifs and just agree with you? I've also said in other threads I'm not the pope I don' know all the answers I just say what I think is true so you can't expect perfect answers from me because I'm still learning from my religion. Finally you can pick and poke at the beleifs as much as you like but I stick by this I pray because:

We are invited to by God Himself.
There is power there.
It moves the heart of God.
It connects us with God through Jesus.
To invite God to be at work in our lives.

Prayer was designed by God to draw us to Himself.

RedStratocas

10-12-2006, 02:29 PM

So you hate it when people pray? I don't get that :s[/I][/B]

You REALLY need to pay attention to what I wrote, maybe actually read it? I said I hate it when people pray for physical things and pray for actual stuff to come to them, as opposed to praying for their soul and for themselves. So I hate it when people pray to win the lottery.

Dan2nd

10-12-2006, 03:08 PM

You REALLY need to pay attention to what I wrote, maybe actually read it? I said I hate it when people pray for physical things and pray for actual stuff to come to them, as opposed to praying for their soul and for themselves. So I hate it when people pray to win the lottery.

So you were still saying you hate when people pray even if you didn't mean it as an overall thing .. and even if they do pray for physical things it seems a bit of a strange thing to hate about people.

RedStratocas

10-12-2006, 04:10 PM

So you were still saying you hate when people pray even if you didn't mean it as an overall thing .. and even if they do pray for physical things it seems a bit of a strange thing to hate about people.

Its my OPINION. Thats how the world works. I think it's wrong for people to think that if they just ask, they can get anything they want, and they can just sit on their butt all day long. And everything magically comes to them. We need less people who think that way in the world. Just my opinion.

Dan2nd

10-12-2006, 04:19 PM

Its my OPINION. Thats how the world works. I think it's wrong for people to think that if they just ask, they can get anything they want, and they can just sit on their butt all day long. And everything magically comes to them. We need less people who think that way in the world. Just my opinion.

ok thats fair point I suppose

Kaytti

10-12-2006, 04:23 PM

I don't pray much. I meditate.

Mentor

10-12-2006, 05:17 PM

Lol you can have as many tantrums about this as you like and yes I have read your previous posts but why should your posts alter what I think is true? you said many times prayer is pointless, so that means I'm meant to giveup a life time of beleifs and just agree with you? I've also said in other threads I'm not the pope I don' know all the answers I just say what I think is true so you can't expect perfect answers from me because I'm still learning from my religion. Finally you can pick and poke at the beleifs as much as you like but I stick by this I pray because:

We are invited to by God Himself.
There is power there.
It moves the heart of God.
It connects us with God through Jesus.
To invite God to be at work in our lives.

Prayer was designed by God to draw us to Himself.

Your answer basicly consists of this.
> i am to stupid to understand what your saying
> so i will ignore it completely to avoid having to think

Read your answer if you dont agree, thats exactly what your saying, i cant example this logic any more simply, this is the sort of stuff most 5 year olds can handle, theres nothing advanced here, no theology, no technical detail, just simple 2+2=4 logic.

A perfect being cant be wrong.
You can only prey if something is wrong.

It doesnt work. Dont even bother entering a debate if you are not even up to the challenger of understanding an oppents agurment.
Be ignorat in your own time, it is not a way to debate.

GommeInc

10-12-2006, 05:17 PM

I don't see the point. I just call it thinking? Prayer is when you are thinking about stuff in your mind and pretend you are talking to someone, like God.

When I am thinking about stuff, I normally sit with a blank expression and think about stuff and sort it out, I like to sort out my thoughts and learn from them. Christians just think but to someone in their own mind while sitting in a position (arms closed, head bent down etc). I just think religious believers resolve their problems similar to thinking but pretend they're talking to someone and they end up resoliving it by coming to their own conclusions when they think and possibly say it over to themselves. The connection of God is just the name they have given to the part of their mind they are talking it through with.

Herman

10-12-2006, 05:38 PM

I pray from time to time, and when I do, I pray for my family and friends to be safe, and for guidance.

I'm a muslim btw.

Dan2nd

10-12-2006, 06:22 PM

Your answer basicly consists of this.
> i am to stupid to understand what your saying
> so i will ignore it completely to avoid having to think

Read your answer if you dont agree, thats exactly what your saying, i cant example this logic any more simply, this is the sort of stuff most 5 year olds can handle, theres nothing advanced here, no theology, no technical detail, just simple 2+2=4 logic.

A perfect being cant be wrong.
You can only prey if something is wrong.

I'm sorry but theres no need to insult me? People pray so they can have a connection with God and give God permisson to be in their lives. Therefore people don't just pray when theres a problem. When people say they move Gods heart what could they mean? What is normally used with the heart? Love maybe?

It doesnt work. Dont even bother entering a debate if you are not even up to the challenger of understanding an oppents agurment.
Be ignorat in your own time, it is not a way to debate.

This isn't even a debate anymore mate its just a pointless arguement which will never have an end mainly because neither of us will back back down because we both want to defend our beleifs and you may think I'm stupid for not seeing the logical side to things but I don't know what else you want me to say other than admitting I'm wrong which I won't do.

Mentor

10-12-2006, 06:29 PM

I'm sorry but theres no need to insult me? People pray so they can have a connection with God and give God permisson to be in their lives. Therefore people don't just pray when theres a problem. When people say they move Gods heart what could they mean? What is normally used with the heart? Love maybe?
This isn't even a debate anymore mate its just a pointless arguement which will never have an end mainly because neither of us will back back down because we both want to defend our beleifs and you may think I'm stupid for not seeing the logical side to things but I don't know what else you want me to say other than admitting I'm wrong which I won't do.

Hence why theres no point in you debateing since all you can do is argue. If a better agrument is offered and mine is destroyed i ether accept i was wrong or i create a new counter. Blind defining an incorrect, disproven belife is not debateing, its simply clinging to ignorance.
You cling to ignoance and refuse to accept the evedance offered, even though it is well within your understanding.

Dan2nd

10-12-2006, 06:49 PM

You cling to ignoance and refuse to accept the evedance offered, even though it is well within your understanding.

What evidence? You said 'people only pray when they have problems' then I said 'no they don't' Wheres the evidence in that?

You said 'God is meant to be perfect' I said yes I know he is I've also said I agree some people pray to God when they have problems but I also said personally don't. I pray to express my thoughts and emotions

GommeInc

10-12-2006, 07:54 PM

I work in a church. When they do a healing service or a special prayer all they do is pray for someone and heal themselves of problems they probably don't have.

"I forgot to say thanks when someone opened a door, off to hell I go!"

I don't see what they are being healed of in a healing service.

Dan2nd

10-12-2006, 08:16 PM

GommeInc

11-12-2006, 08:45 PM

Lol I've never been to one of those before
They're freaky, they talk in tongues to the person that has come up to be healed. What of I do not know. I think a woman said something about her husband and his behaviour?

Ezzie.

14-12-2006, 12:04 AM

So its to solve the problem of hell, you needing help to get in to heven becuse you dont think god is good enough to already provide all the help you requre?

Ok... every point i made for the last few pages? i take it you didnt read any right? i wasnt sure the logic was getting threw, now im definite it isnt.

God is perfect?

Yes?

A perfect god makes perfect choices?

yes?

Move gods heart/changeing his mind, means go did not make a perfect descion?

yes?

So since god is perfect you cannot change his mind (move his heart)

yes?

Well that or god has been perswaed to do a less perfect act, evil maybe, or he made a mistake... ether way it couldnt be god if it was becuse its trade of IMPERFECTION?

So preyer serves no purpos and is illogical?

yes?

and in fact is an affront to god, since it implys hes not perfect and not doing his job right (perfectly)

yes.

Question. Have you even read a tiny bit of the bible? Genesis atleast? In their you will find that Adam & Eve ate from the forbidden tree and were cast out of the garden of eden into the wilderness, where they were left by themselves and were not in direct contact with God.

I find it highly illogical that you seem to never agree to a good counter argument, I've read through the thread and there seems to be some pretty good arguments, I don't ask you to agree with them but all you seem to do is mindlessly blabble on about incomprehendable counter-arguments.

Mentor

14-12-2006, 11:42 PM

Question. Have you even read a tiny bit of the bible? Genesis atleast? In their you will find that Adam & Eve ate from the forbidden tree and were cast out of the garden of eden into the wilderness, where they were left by themselves and were not in direct contact with God.
Yes, but i take it you havent? since you seem to have neglected to take in to account which genisis? 1 or 2? the storys are very differnt.

I find it highly illogical that you seem to never agree to a good counter argument, I've read through the thread and there seems to be some pretty good arguments, I don't ask you to agree with them but all you seem to do is mindlessly blabble on about incomprehendable counter-arguments.
o.0 so your saying you saw some good arguments, and then my counter agument was to complex for you to understand, hence you belive the orignals stand?
I seriosly think my counter was incredibly simplictic, currenly its written a reading age likenable to the Suns o.0

And please present to me a decent argument, mine is apriori, not an empirical one, hence is hard to refute with a posterioi knowledge since your dealing with a being supposedly metaphysical to start with "/

Ezzie.

16-12-2006, 02:05 AM

Yes, but i take it you havent? since you seem to have neglected to take in to account which genisis? 1 or 2? the storys are very differnt.

o.0 so your saying you saw some good arguments, and then my counter agument was to complex for you to understand, hence you belive the orignals stand?
I seriosly think my counter was incredibly simplictic, currenly its written a reading age likenable to the Suns o.0

And please present to me a decent argument, mine is apriori, not an empirical one, hence is hard to refute with a posterioi knowledge since your dealing with a being supposedly metaphysical to start with "/

You're mindlessly babbling again.

I never knew the Sun had a reading age? Where did you come up with that anaology? The mind reels..

Where did i state my mind was too simple to understand your simplistic and one sided view?

Your last paragraph did not make sense as it was illegible. The basic jist of it is saying that because your views seem superior to mine in your own head, then by no doubt, my god isn't real, just because you're an athiest has no reason for you to "Bash" other people's views.

luke-p

16-12-2006, 01:22 PM

In July my dad had a heart attack and it didn't look to good he was in intensive care for 3 days on a ventilator... Praying made me feel slightly better makes you feel that everything will be alright. But praying doesn't work, About 2 weeks after he came out of intensive care he needed a double heart bypass and i started praying that everything would be alright it was but 5-6 hours later he needed to go back into theater because his blood pressure wouldn't rise... Praying.. isn't a magical force its purely psychological

Mentor

16-12-2006, 05:58 PM

You're mindlessly babbling again.
Translation: what you said was to complicated for my puney brain to understand

I never knew the Sun had a reading age? Where did you come up with that anaology? The mind reels..
Well it definilty shows your genral knowlage hovers around zero... thats possibly the stupiest thing ive ever head, im obviosuly refering to the NewsPaper, how redicusly ignorant can you get?

Where did i state my mind was too simple to understand your simplistic and one sided view?
*points up* You would have been able to offer a rebuttled insted of ignoreing it if you wernt stupid, so it logicly dicates that becuse your unable to you must therefor be stupid.

Your last paragraph did not make sense as it was illegible. The basic jist of it is saying that because your views seem superior to mine in your own head, then by no doubt, my god isn't real, just because you're an athiest has no reason for you to "Bash" other people's views.
No what i said, was my agrument was a simple logical flow. Like 2 + 2

Your agrument is Non existant

Obvously a REAL argument is better than your NO agrument at all, hence based on the evidance, im right, you wrong and to stupid to accept it.

Now offer a rebulltel or im going to have to conlude your to stupid to even bother argueing against.

Dan2nd

16-12-2006, 09:45 PM

Your agrument is Non existant

Obvously a REAL argument is better than your NO agrument at all, hence based on the evidance, im right, you wrong and to stupid to accept it.

Now offer a rebulltel or im going to have to conlude your to stupid to even bother argueing against.

I admit I have no proof my God exists and I have no proof he listens to my prays but where is your proof he dosn't exist ? Do you have any? Does anyone ? Do you have proof hes not listening ? The only proof I do have is the happiness I've had since I've invited God to enter my life through pray. So in my opinion your arguement is non existant. I've also said many times God is perfect yes but he still welcomes our prayers even if they do question it. This is because we connect to God through prayer and God wants to connect with us

RedStratocas

16-12-2006, 09:55 PM

I admit I have no proof my God exists and I have no proof he listens to my prays but where is your proof he dosn't exist ? Do you have any? Does anyone ? Do you have proof hes not listening ? The only proof I do have is the happiness I've had since I've invited God to enter my life through pray. So in my opinion your arguement is non existant. I've also said many times God is perfect yes but he still welcomes our prayers even if they do question it. This is because we connect to God through prayer and God wants to connect with us

I agree that there is no proof in either direction that he/she does or does not exist, but after you said that, you started talking about what he is like and what he does. We dont even know if there IS a god, let alone what he wants and what he thinks.

Dan2nd

16-12-2006, 10:00 PM

I agree that there is no proof in either direction that he/she does or does not exist, but after you said that, you started talking about what he is like and what he does. We dont even know if there IS a god, let alone what he wants and what he thinks.

Yes but i was saying what i think God is like based on my beleifs :) and there is also no proof there is NO God thats why i don't get why people insist on trying to shoot religious beleifs down because the arguement has no end ! it is circular if you get what I mean.

RedStratocas

16-12-2006, 10:22 PM

Yes but i was saying what i think God is like based on my beleifs :) and there is also no proof there is NO God thats why i don't get why people insist on trying to shoot religious beleifs down because the arguement has no end ! it is circular if you get what I mean.

I think arguement between relgious and non religious people is actually healthy, its good for balence.

Mentor

16-12-2006, 10:34 PM

I admit I have no proof my God exists and I have no proof he listens to my prays but where is your proof he dosn't exist ? Do you have any?
i wasnt arguing that there was no god, there is no proof ether way, thats purely a matter of faith, and is pretty irrelevantly to my argument.

My argument was that anyone who believes in the default Christan god concept, cannot also believe that god will answer preyer's for things, because it incurs a logical contradiction in the concept.
My argument only refers to prayer asking for thinks, be it a new playstation, or world peace.

Does anyone ? Do you have proof hes not listening?
No, but i have present proof that if he is he will not answer any prayers since if he did, you are left with him ether having made a mistake in what he did originally, aka not perfect, or doing something imperfect, which goes against his benevolence.

The only proof I do have is the happiness I've had since I've invited God to enter my life through pray.
Thats an subjective opinion not proof.

So in my opinion your arguement is non existant.
No, im quite sure it is, be it encoded in 8 bit ascii on a server somewhere, scroll back up if you dont belive me.

I've also said many times God is perfect yes but he still welcomes our prayers even if they do question it. This is because we connect to God through prayer and God wants to connect with us
Whether he listens or not is irrelevantly. my argument is that it cannot change goes actions, hence prayer for things, is useless.

Im only referring to prayer for things, other types of prayer are NOT covered by this argument, i did state this back when i originally put forward the argument, although im not sure everyone has understood this.

This entire argument is based on god hypothetical existing as the christan concept, so i dont understand how you managed to get the idea in to your head i was attempting to disprove god, which is logicaly impossible due to the nature of the concept.

Dan2nd

16-12-2006, 10:35 PM

I think arguement between relgious and non religious people is actually healthy, its good for balence.

Yes i agree to start with its good when mentor and i started the debate it was quite good but soon enough he said something about god being perfect and how prayer is pointless and the debate turned into me just repeating myself every post and him calling me stupid lol

No, im quite sure it is, be it encoded in 8 bit ascii on a server somewhere, scroll back up if you dont belive me.

I'm laughing my socks off mate :rolleyes:

Mentor

16-12-2006, 10:47 PM

Yes i agree to start with its good when mentor and i started the debate it was quite good but soon enough he said something about god being perfect and how prayer is pointless and the debate turned into me just repeating myself every post and him calling me stupid lol
Actually i was calling Ezzie stupid, id given you credit for actually being able to comprehend a simple logical argument, but see how you decided to completely ignore everything i just said, i may have misjudged "/
The only thing worse that stupidty is self inflicted ignorance, and ignoreing and blanking out any views that challenge your own, becuse you subcounsily know your probably wrong, and are just attempting to delude yourself is exsacty that, whats more its pathetic.

If your not going to debate, dont join a debate. The people i get annoied at are those whom enter a debate they fail to enter any form of rebuttle against an agrument, and make stupid clames without bothing to actualy read whats been said.

I'm laughing my socks off mate :rolleyes:
It wasnt supposed to be funny, its literally true. Were you actually Seriously trying to say the argument i present does not exist? Do you understand what the word exists means?

Dan2nd

16-12-2006, 10:55 PM

Actually i was calling Ezzie stupid, id given you credit for actually being able to comprehend a simple logical argument, but see how you decided to completely ignore everything i just said, i may have misjudged "/
The only thing worse that stupidty is self inflicted ignorance, and ignoreing and blanking out any views that challenge your own, becuse you subcounsily know your probably wrong, and are just attempting to delude yourself is exsacty that, whats more its pathetic.

If your not going to debate, dont join a debate. The people i get annoied at are those whom enter a debate they fail to enter any form of rebuttle against an agrument, and make stupid clames without bothing to actualy read whats been said.

Ok fair enough =]

It wasnt supposed to be funny, its literally true. Were you actually Seriously trying to say the argument i present does not exist? Do you understand what the word exists means?
Lol but it made me laugh

Ezzie.

19-12-2006, 12:18 AM

Entor, I'm not trying to come up as ignorant, I have this illness that makes me get "brain fog" which kind of makes me muddle words up and go discombobulated, so bare with me ;)

I'll start again, Ok basically the argument between no-God and pro-God still stands.

I believe prayer is a good thing to have, self meditation of sorts that lets you get in with your spirituallity side, getting into contact with God might soothe the mind and might come up with some answers.. but to be honest I'm not atall sure prayer really works. My dad was dieing and i just put my heart into praying for him to get well, it was unanswered, I understand that a God wouldn't answer selfish prayers asking for material things or things that can be fixed but come on, what i prayed for was un selfish.. I'm starting to babble now -.-

Genesis says that it is the fault of Adam and Eve that we were cast into a mortal world where we experience pain,suffering, etc. But where is the line drawn?

You look at Africa and other 3rd world countries and you see all the children suffering, going through such pain and suffering, surely God would step in to end it? I know they will go to heaven or some other religous haven (religously speaking) but when one ascends there do they remember what had happened before their death?

So pretty much, what is the point of prayer if they go unanswered? If every person prayed all at the same time, what would happen? Most likely nothing, maybe somthing.. It seems prayer is only for medidation purposes or to ease the mind of worries.

Mentor

19-12-2006, 08:01 PM

I believe prayer is a good thing to have, self meditation of sorts that lets you get in with your spirituallity side, getting into contact with God might soothe the mind and might come up with some answers.. but to be honest I'm not atall sure prayer really works. My dad was dieing and i just put my heart into praying for him to get well, it was unanswered, I understand that a God wouldn't answer selfish prayers asking for material things or things that can be fixed but come on, what i prayed for was un selfish.. I'm starting to babble now -.-
But whether or not your wish was selfish or not, God being all powerful would have already made the perfect desision, although most people would disagree, the church istelf puts it down to "gods greater plan" that in reality it is a good thing, we just cant yet understand the true nature of the action.
Since god already made the correct and perfect desion, preying to him to change this, would have to be asking god to do somthing wrong and less perfect, all be it only in terms of the "greater good" ideal. Hence god would have to take the good action (which is for the greated good) rather than takeing the action, most people would see as good, as it would actualy be the worse one.

Personaly i dont agree with much of it, but it is what nessarly follows from the definition. My own belife is that god is irrelivent, and it is down to humanity to fix these problems, hence why things that could have killed us 50 years ago are now harmless due to immunastion and better medical technolgy. The human genome will vastly improve are abiltys here again, allowing US to save more human life. But this view neglects any involment from an active god, hence could not fit with the christan idea of god.

Genesis says that it is the fault of Adam and Eve that we were cast into a mortal world where we experience pain,suffering, etc. But where is the line drawn?
Did god not do the greater sin? After all he being omniscient knew what action we would choose, when he presented us with the choice, haveing created us in such a way that would lead to us doing so, and haveing presented it also in a way that would lead to that act. We only choose to eat the apple becuse god made us so we would choose it.

You look at Africa and other 3rd world countries and you see all the children suffering, going through such pain and suffering, surely God would step in to end it? I know they will go to heaven or some other religous haven (religously speaking) but when one ascends there do they remember what had happened before their death?
I again, dont belive there is a god, hence suffering is a problem humanity must tackel. The other question you asked is a theological one, and my knowlage of the christan concept of heven is far more limited, in the medieval perior it was belived that you loose all memoerys when you go to hevern, but the church is often prone to chaneing its opinion on such matters "/

So pretty much, what is the point of prayer if they go unanswered? If every person prayed all at the same time, what would happen? Most likely nothing, maybe somthing.. It seems prayer is only for medidation purposes or to ease the mind of worries.
I agree with your last sentence, as my argument is only that asking god for somthing in preyer is pointless, prayer in relation of spirtual enlightenment, mediation and easing the mind on the other hand is a wholely separate matter, and is also included in a number of complety non-religious activitys, so must offer some form of benift due to its wide spread adoptio, entire religions are based on such things allown (buddism for example)

Anyway, much better post, and you did state your opinion and what you belive, and in this case, i do agree with much of it, Although in due to a cronic lack of sleep chances are most of my own agrument doesnt make sence in this post "/

Ezzie.

19-12-2006, 09:19 PM

But whether or not your wish was selfish or not, God being all powerful would have already made the perfect desision, although most people would disagree, the church istelf puts it down to "gods greater plan" that in reality it is a good thing, we just cant yet understand the true nature of the action.
Since god already made the correct and perfect desion, preying to him to change this, would have to be asking god to do somthing wrong and less perfect, all be it only in terms of the "greater good" ideal. Hence god would have to take the good action (which is for the greated good) rather than takeing the action, most people would see as good, as it would actualy be the worse one.

Hmm this is where personal beliefs take into account, i personally believe God justs lets everyone get on with it, humans have to tackle their own problems and issues, why would God want some spoilt brat in heaven?
But if you take this into more thought then you would have to consider God not bothering much about mortal sin, which could mean that when one dies God just welcomes them whether they were a sinner or not in real life.

Personaly i dont agree with much of it, but it is what nessarly follows from the definition. My own belife is that god is irrelivent, and it is down to humanity to fix these problems, hence why things that could have killed us 50 years ago are now harmless due to immunastion and better medical technolgy. The human genome will vastly improve are abiltys here again, allowing US to save more human life. But this view neglects any involment from an active god, hence could not fit with the christan idea of god.

Hmm yeah, have you ever seen stargate sg1? I like their idea of how there is a bunch of "pretend" Gods that ruled through fear and superstition *hell anyone?* But behind all this big farse there is some sort of godly / super intelligent being.

Did god not do the greater sin? After all he being omniscient knew what action we would choose, when he presented us with the choice, haveing created us in such a way that would lead to us doing so, and haveing presented it also in a way that would lead to that act. We only choose to eat the apple becuse god made us so we would choose it.

See that's where genesis is flawed. Why would God make man if he knew that man would commit a fatal sin? God looks at us as children (or so it says in the bible), if you told a younger sister or brother not to touch somthing, what are they going to do? Touch it of course. Humanity can be simplified into two things, curiosity to learn and imagination.

If God made us with theese traits then why did he get the huff over them taking the apple? When i have children i'm not going to cast them into a world of pain and misery if they steal an apple.

God expects us to learn and grow yet he casts us out of Eden because we learnt from the knowledge tree. Tolkiens books are starting to sound a bit more believable than the bible at the moment "/

I again, dont belive there is a god, hence suffering is a problem humanity must tackel. The other question you asked is a theological one, and my knowlage of the christan concept of heven is far more limited, in the medieval perior it was belived that you loose all memoerys when you go to hevern, but the church is often prone to chaneing its opinion on such matters "/

Heaven has so many different aspects, the bible hints it is a city made out of gold, where jewels are everywhere etc. Others believe the tradition in the clouds version etc

I agree with your last sentence, as my argument is only that asking god for somthing in preyer is pointless, prayer in relation of spirtual enlightenment, mediation and easing the mind on the other hand is a wholely separate matter, and is also included in a number of complety non-religious activitys, so must offer some form of benift due to its wide spread adoptio, entire religions are based on such things allown (buddism for example)

Anyway, much better post, and you did state your opinion and what you belive, and in this case, i do agree with much of it, Although in due to a cronic lack of sleep chances are most of my own agrument doesnt make sence in this post "/

Yeah I agree and also i have insomnia too, it sucks ^_^

Mentor

19-12-2006, 10:04 PM

Hmm this is where personal beliefs take into account, i personally believe God justs lets everyone get on with it, humans have to tackle their own problems and issues, why would God want some spoilt brat in heaven?
This view isnt really coverd by my argument, but it doesnt need to be, if god "just lets you get on with it" and isnt active or involved in anyway, praying in terms of asking for things is equaly mertitless, since god isnt involved and isnt going to do anything anyway.

But if you take this into more thought then you would have to consider God not bothering much about mortal sin, which could mean that when one dies God just welcomes them whether they were a sinner or not in real life.
The entery requrments to heven are pretty varided, some think as serial killer/rapest can come in freely if he accepts jesus, others think actualy liveing a decent life is whats important, not a belife in god at all, and of cause all thats imbetween. so massive variation.

Hmm yeah, have you ever seen stargate sg1? I like their idea of how there is a bunch of "pretend" Gods that ruled through fear and superstition *hell anyone?* But behind all this big farse there is some sort of godly / super intelligent being.
SG1 is one of my fav tv programs, although lately im prefer the atlantus versions as the new SG1 ones have been pretty poor since they cut out jack.

More on topic, im guessing you mean the Ainchents as the godly being, although in ther series they are simply asseneded beings, although they may exist in a higher plain of existance (technicly thats a contradiction since existance is a state, not a scale) in any case, this doesnt nessarly make them all powerful or good in any way, the orii also assended are evil, and merlins wepon can kill one "/

See that's where genesis is flawed. Why would God make man if he knew that man would commit a fatal sin? God looks at us as children (or so it says in the bible), if you told a younger sister or brother not to touch somthing, what are they going to do? Touch it of course. Humanity can be simplified into two things, curiosity to learn and imagination.
Technicaly thats only one gensis, the other gensis story cuts out alot of the moralty rubbish, and isnt as flawed or pointless. It also cuts out all the men are supior to women, and wiredly enough even though its gensis one, it gets ignored, and people look over to genisis 2 "/

If God made us with theese traits then why did he get the huff over them taking the apple? When i have children i'm not going to cast them into a world of pain and misery if they steal an apple.

God expects us to learn and grow yet he casts us out of Eden because we learnt from the knowledge tree. Tolkiens books are starting to sound a bit more believable than the bible at the moment "/
The tolkin books do actaly include alot of popular mythology, hence much of it at some stage or another was viewed by people as being just as valid as the bible, The tolkins books tended to use the ideas animals, creatures and genral mythology in his fictinal tails. There basis in what is simlar to the current religions is what gives them a semi beliveable fraim work, becuse there written as if the things were real, aka a story that happened to hobbits, not a story about hobbits, as if they were fictios. As is the bible supposedly a story about what happened to jesus, not storys about jesus/god etc.

Heaven has so many different aspects, the bible hints it is a city made out of gold, where jewels are everywhere etc. Others believe the tradition in the clouds version etc
Clouds are just a biproduct of the idea of heven being up, they didnt have to worry about plains of space crafts hitting in to it, so were free to belive heven phiscly existed in the clouds at those times "/
Plus no idea of heven ive come acorss has actualy been particaly appleaing to me perfectly, they all seem very cold, very empty and very pointless, id rather just die, in the proper sence, and let my corps rot away "/

Yeah I agree and also i have insomnia too, it sucks ^_^Naa i dont have insomnia, id sleep if i had the choice, just last day of collage today, and i had to substitute sleep for cousework in order to get the deadlines...