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Dan2nd
29-03-2007, 07:49 PM
Apes and humans have common ancestors but should they have the same rights? An international movement to give them "personhood" is gathering pace.
What would Aristotle make of it? More than 2,000 years after the Greek philosopher declared Mother Nature had made all animals for the sake of man, there are moves to put the relationship on a more equal footing.

Judges in Austria are considering whether a British woman, Paula Stibbe, should become legal guardian of a chimpanzee called Hiasl which was abducted from its family tribe in West Africa 25 years ago.

The animal sanctuary where he has lived is about to close and to stop him being sold to a zoo, Ms Stibbe hopes that she can persuade the court he deserves the same protection as a child.

Spanish MPs are also being urged to back a similar principle, one already endorsed by the Balearic parliament and held dear by the international organisation The Great Ape Project - that apes be granted the right to life, freedom and protection from torture.

So should apes such as those at London Zoo, which opens its Gorilla Kingdom on Thursday complete with gym and climbing wall, get the same rights as their zookeepers?

They need greater protection in the eyes of the law, says Ian Redmond of the UN's Great Apes Survival Project, who believes welfare groups could use guardianship as a way to rescue ill-treated apes.

Some rights are conferred on apes but only because they are endangered. And the international trade ban is flouted in Africa and South-East Asia, where mothers are shot and their infants shipped off as pets, circus performers or lab animals. Vivisection on apes is banned in much of Europe but still goes on in the US and Japan.

"Apes are special because they are so closely related to us," says Mr Redmond. "Chimpanzees and bonobos are our joint closest living relatives, differing by only one per cent of DNA - so close we could accept a blood transfusion or a kidney. Gorillas are next, then orang-utans."


If you take a chimp away from its family groups it's a real wrench

Charlotte Uhlenbroek


Hiasl the chimp

But there is a stronger cognitive argument, he says, because the apes' intelligence and ability to reason demands our respect.

"Show a gibbon a mirror and the reaction suggests he or she thinks the reflection is another gibbon. But all the great apes have passed the 'mirror self-recognition' test and soon begin checking their teeth or examining parts of their body they couldn't see without the mirror. This self-awareness surely suggests that they know they exist."


Family ties

Apes also share a range of human emotions, says zoologist Charlotte Uhlenbroek, who thinks they should be afforded legal protection enshrined in law.




They have a similar lifespan to humans and form strong family bonds which they maintain for life, she says. And apes have displayed a tenderness which could be described as love, anxiety when separated, and fear, jealousy and trauma.


"If I was an alien from Mars and looked at human society and a society of apes then in terms of the emotional life I would see no distinct difference, although we live very different lives because of language and technology."


Giving them rights does not mean throwing open all the cage doors because some zoos are important to preserve the species, but it is vital to establish a principle that apes should not be treated like objects, she says.

Daniel Sokol, a medical ethicist, says apes possess cognitive and emotional faculties that make them worthy of moral consideration.




"Justice and consistent thinking require that we treat non-human animals who share morally-relevant properties in a respectful way, and that surely means giving them the opportunity to flourish and not be tortured or subject to cruel or degrading treatment."


But Steve Jones, professor of genetics at University of London, says human rights are a construct which can't be imposed on animals.

"Where do you stop? It seems to be that being human is unique and nothing to do with biology. Say that apes share 98% of human DNA and therefore should have 98% of human rights. Well mice share 90% of human DNA. Should they get 90% of human rights? And plants have more DNA than humans."


I've yet to see a chimp imprisoned for stealing a banana

Professor Steve Jones

Chimps can't speak but parrots can. Defining creatures and allowing them rights based on criteria invented by one group is itself an enormous breach of human rights, he says, and one need look no further than Austria in 1939 to see why.

"Rights and responsibilities go together and I've yet to see a chimp imprisoned for stealing a banana because they don't have a moral sense of what's right and wrong. To give them rights is to give them something without asking for anything in return."

There is a moral case to make about animal welfare, he says, but it has nothing to do with science.


Whats your opinion?

-:Undertaker:-
29-03-2007, 07:57 PM
No because they are not humans..

More Political correctness crap.

Mr.Sam
29-03-2007, 07:58 PM
we are animals to - we just happen to be more evolved than our primate ancestors.


No because they are not humans..

More Political correctness crap.

Dan2nd
29-03-2007, 08:00 PM
I'm not sure where I stand on this but if we give apes humans rites would that mean they have to go to prison for breaking the law?

-:Undertaker:-
29-03-2007, 08:01 PM
we are animals to - we just happen to be more evolved than our primate ancestors.

I know we are animals.

But they are not Humans

Mr.Sam
29-03-2007, 08:02 PM
Point being?


I know we are animals.

But they are not Humans

-:Undertaker:-
29-03-2007, 08:04 PM
Point being that Apes should not get Human rights, they are not the same as humans.

velocity
29-03-2007, 08:09 PM
they dont need rights.

Mr.Sam
29-03-2007, 08:13 PM
back to my first point - we are animals to, we destroyed/are destroying the planet, where not only humans live but animals live to.

we are destroying evolution in our species and "domestic" animal species.
Yes they should have rights and so should other animals.


Point being that Apes should not get Human rights, they are not the same as humans.

Mentor
29-03-2007, 08:16 PM
NO, the question answers it itself, in the fact there called "Human" rights. hence only humans are covered by them, apes not being human an all.
In the question of other rights covering apes, then also no, there bloody stupid things, if you want to give something rights, given em to octopus's, there a danm signt more intellgent than anything bar us in the ape family "/

uh huh her
29-03-2007, 08:19 PM
i think they should, we may be the "dominant" species, but it doesn't mean we have say over how any other animal should be treated. i agree fully with what sam says.

Mentor
29-03-2007, 08:31 PM
i think they should, we may be the "dominant" species, but it doesn't mean we have say over how any other animal should be treated. i agree fully with what sam says.
o.0 isnt that kinda contradictory, if you dont belive we have a right to say how any other animal should be treated, how the hell can you support legislation saying how other animals can be treated o.0

Demynx
31-03-2007, 03:21 AM
That would clash with Science, they should be taken care of better but if they had Human rights, they would have the right to cause a nucuelar war if they wanted too. But sadly they can't talk.

Bef
31-03-2007, 03:31 AM
Yes, yes they should and sheep should wear nappys.

GommeInc
31-03-2007, 11:26 PM
No... Human Rights sorta explains itself :rolleyes:

BL!NKEY
31-03-2007, 11:32 PM
Lol

Apes should have equal rights if they get a job and start paying taxes.

HaboCola
31-03-2007, 11:44 PM
Lmao, no they are just animals... Another pointless stupid thread... :@

DiscoPat
31-03-2007, 11:45 PM
Lol @ above,
Also I think its nice the scientists are doing all this stuff, but why dont they spend their time on stuff more important? I mean come on.. How likely is it that they are gonna have human rights, they might be "similar" to us but they are not human, unless you have human similarity rights Oo.

Mentor
31-03-2007, 11:49 PM
Lol

Apes should have equal rights if they get a job and start paying taxes.

If they manage to convince apes and monkeys to pay tax's i may just be able to agree to it. :P

Since thats not gona happen, im sticking with my, its a crock of **** theory, though.

FlyingJesus
31-03-2007, 11:54 PM
They have animal rights, not human rights.

GommeInc
01-04-2007, 01:05 AM
I suppose they could have Human Rights. I imagine George Bush has and he is inbetween "/

Axel
01-04-2007, 01:30 AM
Lmao, no they are just animals... Another pointless stupid thread... :@

Most points in this thread are reasonable, but what you're saying is a crap excuse. We're animals too, just smarter, which is why we have everything we do today.

-Soph-
01-04-2007, 01:34 AM
Point being that Apes should not get Human rights, they are not the same as humans.

I agree..

Eamonn
01-04-2007, 02:19 AM
No for the fact that they aren't humans, it would be like seeing a pidgeon and going lets give it human rights, it's not human so how can you give it human rights, would be more like ape right?

Jazza
01-04-2007, 02:52 AM
An ape does not have the cognative facilities to understand the rights it has, so therefore it should not have human rights.

-Soph-
01-04-2007, 03:11 AM
No for the fact that they aren't humans, it would be like seeing a pidgeon and going lets give it human rights, it's not human so how can you give it human rights, would be more like ape right?

well a pigeon has nothing to do with a human, apes do, but I still disagree that they should be giving them human rights, like mrlore said, they don't understand what human rights are.

FlyingJesus
01-04-2007, 03:50 AM
I don't think the apes should have human rights (as I said before), but the cognition argument as put forward by our resident OAP MrLore is flawed, as it suggests also that humans with "mental deficiencies" such as prevents certain thought patterns required to know that they have rights should not have them.

edit: you can't say a simple medical term on this forum, how sad

Kymux
01-04-2007, 10:57 AM
why should apes get them and not fish?? this is stupid its called "Human" rights

Mr.OSH
06-04-2007, 06:30 PM
No because they are not human :P

velocity
06-04-2007, 06:33 PM
should apes have human rights?

no, they have animal rights.

Jamie!
06-04-2007, 06:50 PM
no, obv not.

Wig44.
06-04-2007, 06:59 PM
An ape does not have the cognative facilities to understand the rights it has, so therefore it should not have human rights.

It's cognitive, not cognative. Back on track. An ape may be what we are descended from, but that doesn't necessarily mean we are at all alike. Though there are some physical similarities, that does not mean we are at all similar mentally. Besides, they aren't human, therefore they do not qualify for human rights. It is wrong to say they get animal rights as they are animals and not humans, because, what are we, besides the most dominant animal?

:Liam
06-04-2007, 09:22 PM
Should Apes Have HUMAN rights?
It sort of answers itself. Animals get a basic right as in humans have to treat them well ect.
Could you imagine a policeman arresting a ape :P

Plank
12-04-2007, 04:05 PM
animals have animal rights, so why should they have human rights? when an ape can speak, then give them human rights.

T0M
12-04-2007, 04:45 PM
animals have animal rights, so why should they have human rights? when an ape can speak, then give them human rights.


Well said =) - When apes can do everytihng humans can, then they deserve human rights, and not until =)

JoeyK.
13-04-2007, 12:33 AM
Apes are not humans. Apes can have ape rights, not human rights. Humans get human rights, not ape rights. :)

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