Regarding the Reputation Issue

[nvrspk4]

Hey there,

Ok, I'm sorry, but no matter how dedicated I am and how much I don't back down from a long thread or long posts, there's no way I'm going through 58 pages this late. Actually, I would, except they all say the same thing except for the one meaningful post here and there. So I cba to read that just to find the occasional gem of originality and thought. So if you made a decent point, feel free to post it here. If you are going to post here saying STUPID CHANGE CHANGE IT NOW, I will not pay attention to you. Who knows, I may even make a statement -rep you. Ok I probably won't because that doesn't achieve anything. And that's a point I'll make later. But first.

No I'm not going to leave this saying post worthwhile posts here to save me trouble. I have a point to make.

First of all, it seems all the blame is going to MAD. Now, I could sit here and let him take all the heat, and it wouldn't be hard at all, and we would've gotten something that needed to be done done and I would have kept my (limited at best) popularity. But that's an utterly vile and despiccable thing to do to have someone else take the heat for something you were a part of. So let me reveal something. The decision was one made by all four members of General Management plus sierk. At least the decision to make the limits for rep power higher were the decision of all five of us, we're reevaluating if the specific numbers are too high or two low, but we aren't going to change it to an arbitrary number just because you feel its right. We'll actually think out arguments to why it should be at a lower or higher number.

Moving on, it was all of our decision. So no, its not MAD abusing his power. Even if I hated MAD (and I don't..and anyone who tells me that I'm sucking up evidently lacks the brainpower to realize that I have no reason to suck up) I would not allow him to take the sole blame on this. So, it was a committee decision I suppose you could say and we did argue the issue out a bit.

But let me give you a bit of perspective before you tell us that this committee is biased against you and since we're so elite and have 15 power anyway since we don't care. We put every option on there when we discuss a problem. We weren't just like, HEY LETS LOWER EVERYONES REP POWER LOZL. We consider the reputation issue a very large one. Therefore, we posted the reputation issue up, and looked for solutions. We put EVERYTHING up there, no matter how wild. Among those were removing the system entirely, refunding and removing ALL bought rep, setting the system to 0, etc. etc. Another one was disabling negative rep. And the last was removing paid rep. One by one they were struck down as AGMs thinking of the members decided that they were too unfair or were biased against certain people. I won't tell you who did what, because this isn't about glorification, its just to illustrate that we don't do everything without thinking about the members. So only making rep power harder to achieve remained, along with removing rep. We decided to do both. This was after extended debating of the issue.

So it was a thought out decision, we are rethinking SOME of the numbers, and some of the numbers (ie Rep from 1000 to 600) have changed. However the basis behind the idea still stands. Rep powers are going far too high, and reputation is slowly spinning out of control. Why is it an issue? The high powers are being abused. A social order is being created where the higher your rep and rep power is, the higher up you are. This is the forum equivalent of the "The more your car cost the larger your *genitalia* is." That's redonkulous. As is the rep power thing. Also larger rep powers used their rep power to cower newer members, and they would actually -rep people they didn't like until they sat down and shut up. Obviously not acceptable.

Don't believe me about the social order? Then why not reexamine why you're mad. Why are you mad? Because you lost rep power. Why do you care about losing rep power? Because obviously you think it has some part in the respect you get. Don't feed me *crud* about how its for the satisfaction of being able to take one more point off an annoying member's rep or give one more point for that super alt. Because that is crap. You care because you have a higher number above your rep bar. I believe it was possibly one of the biggest mistakes we have ever made adding the rep power to a person's postbit. If you still don't believe me, consider this. Did anybody care about their rep power until it was included in the postbit? No. If it wasn't included in the postbit, nobody would even notice or mind the change all that much either. Everyone's complaints are about numbers. Just confirming this more.

Does it mean you have bigger ones just because you have a higher number above your rep bar? Are you morally superior to someone else because you have a bigger number there? No.

Oh yeah, and coincidentally you might consider how lucky you are. Since probably in total thousands of power were removed across the forum, tens of thousands of rep points should have been lost. People who got only three reps from neversoft should have lost about 100 points just from that. (And, no matter what you think, we weren't targeting you specifically :P)

So, present to me a logical argument that is not based off of "I want a higher rep power for the purpose of having a higher number there" and I will respond.

I have other things I want to say, but right now they're swimming around in the back of my head and I can't grab them quick enough. So let me take a different tack.

You could try it out you know. It wouldn't kill you. Last three major riots? Infractions, MAD being GM, MAD being FM. Nobody cares anymore (or at least as much). Well, people consider MAD a terrible GM now, but three days ago I can guarantee a lot fewer people disliked MAD as a GM.

Half of the people in this are caught up in a mob mentality. If you were each able to speak with an (A)GM one on one, I guarantee the numbers of protestors would be much less. However when 20 people are outraged, spreading their outrage to 3 friends each, all of a sudden it becomes a frenzy and an AGM's response is lost between 20 protesting posts, and nearly half the people don't see it.




On a completely different tack, the poll, as I'm sure you've guessed, is totally unrelated to the rant. So I would like to know what y'all think about this.

Person A gives Person B a pointless rep.

Admin finds it because of one of the circumstances that leads them to search through rep, lets not go through those now.

Rep is deleted, Admin records it and PMs it to person B explaining that its been deleted as its pointless (may be multiple reps if Person B was being searched, however if Person A was having their sent reps checked, then the Admin wouldn't randomly check Person B's recieved reps).

Person B has no consequences other than the little bit of rep points removed.

Person A, however, has the amount of all sent pointless reps over the last month added together, and double the amount is subtracted from Person A's rep by the Admin.

You can't deny the responsiblity for the reps you send. This way the person who pointless reps is punished, and its a more effective way to combat the pointless rep situation (in addition to the rep power thing, which was ridiculous for other reasons, this has to do with pointless rep but pointless rep was only one facet of the rep power thing.) So feel free to leave your opinions on this too.


And finally, on a COMPLETELY different task, there is something big coming in January that I will be putting together (and am putting together now) that I think will make things like these easier to stomach in the future, and give you an outlet, or at least a better explanation, about these kinds of issues. However no comments about that please because its not that far away and I'm not saying nawt :P

So anyway, there's my rant.

Anyone who says OMG THATS TOO LONG TO READ has in my eyes lost all validity and all their rights to complain about the issue. If they truly care, they would read it. If they don't read it, they're A) merely agitators B) jumping on the bandwagon C) finding an excuse to rip management or D) don't really care all that much.

nvr

[Demon]

The fact still remains that you dont listen to us. You could have put a poll before you messed up rep your just doing things nobody likes even people with 0 rep dont like it. Its going to take like a year to get up a power.

[Hayd93]

ok i have read it all,I admire you for writing that to try to sort the problem but could you tell me everyone elses rep goes down but yours and mads and that stays the same i know because it is defalt for the admin but shurely shouldent you lower yours too.

As well as above you never ask what we want anymore you just do it to us

[Demon]

Btw why does --ss-- have 17 rep?

Edited by opensourcehost (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not post pointless or off-topic comments.

[AgnesIO]

This idea is far better, than the pathetic new thing.

[Boxiel]

I agree with the red text.. only if rep is returned back to what it was previously.

[buttons]

to put it into perspective, you suck, ok?

Edited by opensourcehost (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not post rude or pointless comments.

[jesus]

this doesnt really bother me before you say anything, but if you want my opinion here it is:

the reputation system was fine as it was, its just a bit of harmless fun and its a nice thing to do. even if 'pointless' reputation was being given, who actually cares? no other forum ive EVER visited has been so concerned about their forums reputation system and i dont see why this one should be.

also it appears i was wrong in thinking that the users 'hapiness' comes first here.

[Jamesy]

to put it into perspective, you suck, ok?

Oh yes, very well thought out argument...

Edited by opensourcehost (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not post pointless comments.

[Catzsy]

Yes great post NVR and an effective solution.
Shame it was not posted before the rep change.
Having said that I do not wholeheartedly agree with the body of your argument and merging all the rep threads is just a way of confusing the issue basically and making sure people cba to read it as you have said yourself.

[velvet]

i like the idea in red, it'd work well.

[jrh2002]

I agree with what you wrote in red and think the rep change is great :)

[jesus]

i honestly dont see any problems with the previous system of reputation, the idea in red just seems silly to me.

[benjamin]

the highlighted section of the post wasn't as detailed as the rest, if that was to take place does that mean rep power would go back the same? or would it stay how it is currently, and that would just be another extent to tackle pointless rep?

i think you mean it goes back to how it was; which in that case would be a good idea because it'd stop people pointless repping, and well if it doesn't then they get quite a bold punishment. &i'm not saying this because i pointless rep, because in fact i don't. if i did my rep would get removed and stuff, and infact i've never had any rep removed except once in the staff forums (and that just goes to show how long ago that was, i haven't been staff for like over 6 months.)

[Hazza]

I think the red text part, but still don't agree with the rep change.

[reindeer.]

if the admins keep saying 'who cares?' then why are they doing this.
LOL AT MY REP POWER.
3 GO ME.
LMAO.

[benjamin]

I think the red text part, but still don't agree with the rep change.
firstly, that doesn't make sense.
secondly, it was rep power that changed not the actual rep you've already gained.

[reindeer.]

to be honest, you should stop fooling around with rep, and train these good for nothing moderators.

[jesus]

the highlighted section of the post wasn't as detailed as the rest, if that was to take place does that mean rep power would go back the same? or would it stay how it is currently, and that would just be another extent to tackle pointless rep?

i think you mean it goes back to how it was; which in that case would be a good idea because it'd stop people pointless repping, and well if it doesn't then they get quite a bold punishment. &i'm not saying this because i pointless rep, because in fact i don't. if i did my rep would get removed and stuff, and infact i've never had any rep removed except once in the staff forums (and that just goes to show how long ago that was, i haven't been staff for like over 6 months.)

if the reputation system was to revert back to how it was and this idea was implemented then i would agree.

looking at the current system where you have to get 1000 points for a power, this is impossible because of the powers being lowered.

[reindeer.]

looking at the current system where you have to get 1000 points for a power, this is impossible because of the powers being lowered.

good point.
no-one is ever going to gain a rep power.

[benjamin]

if the reputation system was to revert back to how it was and this idea was implemented then i would agree.

looking at the current system where you have to get 1000 points for a power, this is impossible because of the powers being lowered.

i completely agree with the second bit, and i don't think that side of it was thought out very well, because all they say in response to that is 'it will feel like more of an achievement', when infact it'll take a lifetime to get it anyway. the majority of the forum members now have 1/2 rep power, so that's like what, 500 reps? i probably get like 2 or 3 reps a day, and well that's going to take a hell of a long time, lmao.

OH and another point, i think that if management insist on keeping the boundary for a rep at 600, then the one for posts should be lowered a hell of a lot. they said it's to encourage to post more to earn rep, but then they higher the post boundary too? it should've stayed at 2,500, or even lowered to 2/1000, and imo it wouldn't have been as big of a problem if that hadn't changed so drastically.

and on a final note, i do agree that a change was needed. but i don't agree that it was needed to this extent.

[Mr.OSH]

I'm in agreement with that idea, it definitely would make people think twice before issuing pointless reputation. :) Also in regards to the changes to the reputation system as you stated I think that people should firstly get off ---MAD---'s back regarding changes that people don't agree with as it is the management as a team that make decisions and also that maybe everyone should just give it some time and see how it goes, in the long run it may even work out to be a better, more effective system than before. The whole point of this change is because lots of people had very high reputation which made the whole system utterly pointless as people would just rep each other for no reason thus increasing each others reputation and it was turning into quite a fiasco.

At the end of the day even if your reputation points are not as high it is much better when you do get your reputation up to a higher level because you feel you have earn it and you also will feel that reputation is doing what it is supposed to do - showing who has the best reputation from posts on the forum, not who has the most money or who has the most friends with high reputation points which it seemed to be turning into recently. I myself have gone down to 3 reputation points from 7 so I agree with the point that it is slightly frustrating that you feel as if you have lost something as your number has gone down and yes it is only reputation at the end of the day but I can clearly see why some people are frustrated, however you must remember now that having 10 + reputation points is much higher than i t used to be, it isn't just your reputation that has gone down, it is everyone's.

Therefore in effect your not loosing out on anything because the reputations points you have now are in effect worth as much [in terms of your effort to gain reputation] as they were before. The only thing that has changed is the number of reputation points people have and as it has changed in proportion it make no difference at all to your "power". All this change is doing is trying to make sure the people who have high reputation deserve it and they don't feel that they have worked hard for high reputation when others have just bought it or gained it unfairly.

Of course your not going to like the fact that your reputation points went down but as I've said in effect they have not as everyones have gone down and no one is being singled out individually. If you think it through this isn't such a bad decision after all, at first I was like "Oh why has my reputation gone down" and I was wondering why this change had been made but then when I had a think about it I had a change of opinion on the matter because int he long run it hopefully will make the system better and people will feel the reputation they have has been earned fairly. :)

I can imagine lots of you will say that the only reason I'm in agreement is because I'm staff or sucking up to the management or whatever however I can tell you if I didn't agree with this change I would say so, this is how I feel about whats going on at the moment and I think some people need to just have a think about the fact it is only a number at the end of the day and also nothing have been "lowered" in terms of who has the most reputation power, the numbers have simply changed to make it fairer.

[jrh2002]

if the reputation system was to revert back to how it was and this idea was implemented then i would agree.

looking at the current system where you have to get 1000 points for a power, this is impossible because of the powers being lowered.


I agree now the new system is here it will make it very hard to gain more power.
I think it has been lowered to 600 per rep now but could be changed a little once we see how well its working.

Personally I think they should have made it so you get 1 rep after your first 100 posts and then 1 every year. I would have made it impossible to gain rep any other way and then people would only feel the need to rep good posts instead of repping in the hope to get rep returned to boost their rep power. If this happened then it would be nice for all members to see who left you rep so you can see the nice comments.

[reindeer.]

what about if you were allowed to give only 5 reps a week?
wouldn't that discourage pointless rep?
then you wouldn't be able to rep the legitimate posts if you had wasted them all on pointless rep.

[Catzsy]

I agree with what you wrote in red and think the rep change is great :)

Okay James, being a bit cheeky here :O so are you going to disable yours as
now it is probably one of the highest rep powers on the board? :D

[jesus]

I agree now the new system is here it will make it very hard to gain more power.
I think it has been lowered to 600 per rep now but could be changed a little once we see how well its working.

Personally I think they should have made it so you get 1 rep after your first 100 posts and then 1 every year. I would have made it impossible to gain rep any other way and then people would only feel the need to rep good posts instead of repping in the hope to get rep returned to boost their rep power. If this happened then it would be nice for all members to see who left you rep so you can see the nice comments.thats a decent idea, 1 per year and 1 per 1000 posts should be acceptable because 'reputation' itself is basically how 'well known' you are, and if you make a 1000 posts or are on for a year you are certainly well known.

the red text in the first post would be a good idea if the above was considered.

[le harry]

i think just increasing the amount of reps it takes to rep someone again would of done the job..

[reindeer.]

i think just increasing the amount of reps it takes to rep someone again would of done the job..
no because then u get people pointless repping with 'spreading' as the message.
we all like to recieve it but the admins don't like it.

[le harry]

no because then u get people pointless repping with 'spreading' as the message.
we all like to recieve it but the admins don't like it.

Rep 5 people a day and say it takes 30 rep's to rep the person again..?

[benjamin]

no because then u get people pointless repping with 'spreading' as the message.
we all like to recieve it but the admins don't like it.
but then if the highlighted text in the first post was implimented, peole wouldn't do it ;), and if they did, then they're really stupid :S

[kk.]

I agree with the red text.. only if rep is returned back to what it was previously.

yh if rep was back to the way was, then i would agree, however, i havent seen any forum carew about rep so i dont know why you do. like someone said, its harmless fun and you wasting your time over a number that causes hardly any issues anyway whereas you get pictures and links to scam sites that get removed 5 hours after there posted. train your moderators first and then maybe focus on less important things


this doesnt really bother me before you say anything, but if you want my opinion here it is:

the reputation system was fine as it was, its just a bit of harmless fun and its a nice thing to do. even if 'pointless' reputation was being given, who actually cares? no other forum ive EVER visited has been so concerned about their forums reputation system and i dont see why this one should be.

also it appears i was wrong in thinking that the users 'hapiness' comes first here.
100% agree


to be honest, you should stop fooling around with rep, and train these good for nothing moderators.
AGREED


And finally, on a COMPLETELY different task, there is something big coming in January that I will be putting together (and am putting together now) that I think will make things like these easier to stomach in the future, and give you an outlet, or at least a better explanation, about these kinds of issues. However no comments about that please because its not that far away and I'm not saying nawt :P

surely this means you are going to implement something without consulting us AGAIN and so all that we are saying your jsut disregarding anyway

[reindeer.]

but then if the highlighted text in the first post was implimented, peole wouldn't do it ;), and if they did, then they're really stupid :S
but you can't account for people like pleke and greco.
and they can't check everyones rep.
unless some fool reports plus rep.


i think 5 reps a week would do it - just put it all back to the way it was before with a 5 rep giving per week limit.

[benjamin]

but you can't account for people like pleke and greco.
and they can't check everyones rep.
unless some fool reports plus rep.


i think 5 reps a week would do it - just put it all back to the way it was before with a 5 rep giving per week limit.
but then if people like 'pleke' and 'greco' did it, then it'd be them that gets the punishment.

[Technologic]

I agree with the red but if the system is put as it was before

[reindeer.]

and also can i just say.
if the admins aren't going to decrease their rep powers what kind of an example does it set?
a rule that you're not going to abide by, but you're going to make us??

[Dom¿]

TBH this whole system is a load of rubbish, you have reduced everyone's rep, i should be on 4, because of 1 yr's and the amount of post's i have, you have totally messed this up, SORT IT OUT! Put rep back to how it was, and then put a 5 rep's per day limit like you have!

[jrh2002]

Okay James, being a bit cheeky here :O so are you going to disable yours as
now it is probably one of the highest rep powers on the board? :D

I would be happy to use my normal rep ive earned over the years :8
The reason Admin have rep power of 15 is because if we rep your posts then it would be for a good reason and compliment to rep a user and not some random reason even though I am not saying ALL members abuse the system.
The only time my high rep power works for me is when I -Rep for pathetic/ rule breaking posts but that was when I was just a member and not needed so now i could just take action against them.

[Dom¿]

I would be happy to use my normal rep ive earned over the years :8
The reason Admin have rep power of 15 is because if we rep your posts then it would be for a good reason and compliment to rep a user and not some random reason even though I am not saying ALL members abuse the system.
The only time my high rep power works for me is when I -Rep for pathetic/ rule breaking posts but that was when I was just a member and not needed so now i could just take action against them.


yeah i see what your saying, but still why did they change the rep system?
people payed for their rep, and now it's been taken away so really they should be refunded!

[Adzeh]

yeah i see what your saying, but still why did they change the rep system?
people payed for their rep, and now it's been taken away so really they should be refunded!

No reputation has been taken away because of this change to the system :).

[Dom¿]

No reputation has been taken away because of this change to the system :).

i know this, but power has people bought rep for power not for rep "/

[Mr.OSH]

i know this, but power has people bought rep for power not for rep "/

When they bought the reputation points the reputation was added on and it is still valid. No one has lost anything, just the numbers have changed. In effect now having 2 or 3 reputation points is like having 7 last week because everyones reputation has changed, not just individual peoples. The change has made all the rep power change in proportion so it is harder to abuse the system. All people need to get used to is the fact that having over 10 reputation points is worth much more than it was a week ago and having 2 or 3 points isn't as low as it was a week ago, because of the change you still have the same level of "power" in regards to the other members rep power as you ever had. It is simply a change in the numbers to make it more fair on people who work hard to gain high levels of reputation points.

[joshuar]

i know this, but power has people bought rep for power not for rep "/

Well we sold reputation to add to your reputation counter, not your rep power counter. We haven't changed your personal reputation counter, only your rep power, so it's not our fault that you were buying it for more rep power, as we sold it so you could get more reputation points.

[N!ck]

I agree with the red part meaning that those issuing the pointless reps will be punished.

I do, however think that the current boundaries for getting a higher rep power are too high. 1 year as a registered forum member is about the right amount of time to go up a power rather than the 2 years by the current changes. I think that 500-600 rep points (like it is now) is probably about the right amount, but 5000 posts is way too high. Maybe lower it to 2500-3000.

[Catzsy]

I would be happy to use my normal rep ive earned over the years :8
The reason Admin have rep power of 15 is because if we rep your posts then it would be for a good reason and compliment to rep a user and not some random reason even though I am not saying ALL members abuse the system.
The only time my high rep power works for me is when I -Rep for pathetic/ rule breaking posts but that was when I was just a member and not needed so now i could just take action against them.

Well I never -rep but my rep power of 26 (which was all earned except for that for buying VIP) was also a great tool for encouraging new members who had made a very good post and if what you are saying is true then its only admin that rep for a good reason? Most of the members here have never abused the rep system but under this new system we all suffer. I am not that bothered really but it is very de-motivating.

[Soil]

The fact still remains that you dont listen to us. You could have put a poll before you messed up rep your just doing things nobody likes even people with 0 rep dont like it. Its going to take like a year to get up a power.

I think he made the obvious when he said ...


Ok, I'm sorry, but no matter how dedicated I am and how much I don't back down from a long thread or long posts, there's no way I'm going through 58 pages this late. Actually, I would, except they all say the same thing except for the one meaningful post here and there. So I cba to read that just to find the occasional gem of originality and thought.

So basically if there is a good dicussion with lots of good points, he will presume they are a load of bull. And nvr, you dont have to read it at night? Read it in the morning? This is what people mean when they said they arent listenened to. Anyway, i think reputation should just be disabled. stops all the hassle and arguments.

[-Xiangu-]

I think that people who had amazingly high reputation still have quite high reputation and because rep is harder to earn then having someone with 8-9 rep power -rep you would make you loose reputation that could have taken a long time to earn. so i think. i know its not possible but. everyones reputation should be reset to 1 rep power and it is re started with the new reputation system. But i doubt this could happen because some people payed for rep. and in doing so you would have to refund them which i doubt you could do

xiangu

[Alkaz]

Wha nvrspk put in that red section seems like the rules at the moment.
When people had lots of rep being removed by nick it was for the same reasons for what nvr had said. Person A pointlessly repping person B and it was person A whos pointless rep was removed over the last 30days.

I know it would be hard to get them but surely if their were more vip/rep editors to actually check through peoples rep it would help the problem a little?

Rep points being removed affects people to and i think maybe more than rep power because alot more points are removed than power.

So ya i think highering the points needed for 1 rep power to 500 points and checking rep more often would help control pointless more i think?

[Elkaa]

So basically if there is a good dicussion with lots of good points, he will presume they are a load of bull. And nvr, you dont have to read it at night? Read it in the morning? This is what people mean when they said they arent listenened to. Anyway, i think reputation should just be disabled. stops all the hassle and arguments.

Both myself and J1MI, between us have read close to every single post in that thread, and have given numerous replies - You can't expect a reply from every single member of management to your specific question.

As for reputation being disabled, this isn't an option. It would mean the refunding of hundreds of people who bought rep, as well as that some people only buy VIP for the Reputation that comes with it.

[Blue]

A question, with us not being able to buy rep anymore, does that include getting it from buying VIP?

[Soil]

Both myself and J1MI, between us have read close to every single post in that thread, and have given numerous replies - You can't expect a reply from every single member of management to your specific question.

As for reputation being disabled, this isn't an option. It would mean the refunding of hundreds of people who bought rep, as well as that some people only buy VIP for the Reputation that comes with it.

I'm sure instead of refunding those users, you could extend their VIP? I am sure they wouldnt mind. Also, I appreciate the fact you read through every post but if nvrspk just cba then he shouldnt post it. It just shows he doesnt care what the users think on this forum.

What I think this forum needs is, more mature and older administrators. When this forum was run by Jack, Baving, DJ, Anitar, Seacat, it was much better as they were older and didnt take everything we post seriously. Not only that, they asked the users for their opinions before making a big change or something which would affect the users quiet a bit.

If back then I made a post saying OMG *USERNAME* SCAMS (and I make it obvious that its a joke and in the spam forum), I wouldnt have beene punished. Now, if I do that, I just get infracted. Administrators refuse to reverse it and I have to PM sierk, who has common sense, who ends up getting it reversed. This has meant I have had over 20 reversed infractions in total on both my accounts. This is just plain stupid.

[Titch]

The Idear in red is a very good one and should be instated, should stop all that pointless rep and arguments over it.

[Mr.OSH]

A question, with us not being able to buy rep anymore, does that include getting it from buying VIP?

You still get additional reputation as a V.I.P feature, that has not been removed to my knowledge. :)

[Blue]

Oh good, thanks :)

[GommeInc]

Btw why does --ss-- have 17 rep?

Edited by opensourcehost (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not post pointless or off-topic comments.
That comment wasn't off-topic :S

This thread is nearly one month too late. Just delete the rep points people have reported, and further delete rep points that break the HUGE list of forum rules. I don't know why someone thought it would be a good idea to delete ALL rep comments which maybe considered pointless. Because isn't it the member who has the rep has the right to say whether or not it is pointless? If that member gets a 'pointless' rep or rep with a small, strange rep comment, it may aswell be from someone who owed him rep, but didn't know what to say, or furthermore, it could be from a friend they have on this forum.

In short,

Don't touch rep that hasn't specifically been asked to be touched when it doesn't break ANY forum rules. Only touch rep that has been reported, e.g. from multiple members complaining about a stupid member who likes to pointless rep OR rep points reported in the 'Report Reputation' thread.

If you find pointless rep being sent, just warn the member responsible to stop their actions or action will be taken against them, like you've stated in red.

[Mr.OSH]

That comment wasn't off-topic :S

This thread is nearly one month too late. Just delete the rep points people have reported, and further delete rep points that break the HUGE list of forum rules. I don't know why someone thought it would be a good idea to delete ALL rep comments which maybe considered pointless. Because isn't it the member who has the rep has the right to say whether or not it is pointless? If that member gets a 'pointless' rep or rep with a small, strange rep comment, it may aswell be from someone who owed him rep, but didn't know what to say, or furthermore, it could be from a friend they have on this forum.

In short,

Don't touch rep that hasn't specifically been asked to be touched when it doesn't break ANY forum rules. Only touch rep that has been reported, e.g. from multiple members complaining about a stupid member who likes to pointless rep OR rep points reported in the 'Report Reputation' thread.

If you find pointless rep being sent, just warn the member responsible to stop their actions or action will be taken against them, like you've stated in red.

I understand what you are saying but people sending positive reputation to each other because they are friends and therefore artificially increasing their friends reputation isn't very fair on those who work hard posting good posts in order to increase their reputation. That is what has caused the removal of "pointless" reputation that people issue. If people didn't abuse the system and did what it is meant to be used for - adding reputation to members who are helpful or do something nice, this wouldn't be a problem. It was before the changes far to easy to gain reputation and it meant this had a knock on effect in regards to lots of people having very high *artificial* reputation power which was ruining the system as it was not achieving what it was set up to do and that is to identify members who are well known and helpful. With these changes hopefully in the long run it will improve the system to a point where it is useful and an achievement to get higher reputation power. :)

[Angel-Light]

Personally I think the rep system should be scrapped altogether. All it is really is a number. People should know you for a reputation from the posts that you do not because of a silly little number. I have been on the forum since the olden times and the problem to do with rep just keeps growing.

If something causes so much trouble then just get rid of it!

[Mr.OSH]

Personally I think the rep system should be scrapped altogether. All it is really is a number. People should know you for a reputation from the posts that you do not because of a silly little number. I have been on the forum since the olden times and the problem to do with rep just keeps growing.

If something causes so much trouble then just get rid of it!

I don't think it is as simple as that to just remove the system considering in the past people have purchased reputation and also one of the VIP features is reputation. Back logging and refunding everyone who bought reputation one way or another wouldn't be easy at all.

[Dentafrice,]

Hey there,

Ok, I'm sorry, but no matter how dedicated I am and how much I don't back down from a long thread or long posts, there's no way I'm going through 58 pages this late. Actually, I would, except they all say the same thing except for the one meaningful post here and there. So I cba to read that just to find the occasional gem of originality and thought. So if you made a decent point, feel free to post it here. If you are going to post here saying STUPID CHANGE CHANGE IT NOW, I will not pay attention to you. Who knows, I may even make a statement -rep you. Ok I probably won't because that doesn't achieve anything. And that's a point I'll make later. But first.

No I'm not going to leave this saying post worthwhile posts here to save me trouble. I have a point to make.

First of all, it seems all the blame is going to MAD. Now, I could sit here and let him take all the heat, and it wouldn't be hard at all, and we would've gotten something that needed to be done done and I would have kept my (limited at best) popularity. But that's an utterly vile and despiccable thing to do to have someone else take the heat for something you were a part of. So let me reveal something. The decision was one made by all four members of General Management plus sierk. At least the decision to make the limits for rep power higher were the decision of all five of us, we're reevaluating if the specific numbers are too high or two low, but we aren't going to change it to an arbitrary number just because you feel its right. We'll actually think out arguments to why it should be at a lower or higher number.

Moving on, it was all of our decision. So no, its not MAD abusing his power. Even if I hated MAD (and I don't..and anyone who tells me that I'm sucking up evidently lacks the brainpower to realize that I have no reason to suck up) I would not allow him to take the sole blame on this. So, it was a committee decision I suppose you could say and we did argue the issue out a bit.

But let me give you a bit of perspective before you tell us that this committee is biased against you and since we're so elite and have 15 power anyway since we don't care. We put every option on there when we discuss a problem. We weren't just like, HEY LETS LOWER EVERYONES REP POWER LOZL. We consider the reputation issue a very large one. Therefore, we posted the reputation issue up, and looked for solutions. We put EVERYTHING up there, no matter how wild. Among those were removing the system entirely, refunding and removing ALL bought rep, setting the system to 0, etc. etc. Another one was disabling negative rep. And the last was removing paid rep. One by one they were struck down as AGMs thinking of the members decided that they were too unfair or were biased against certain people. I won't tell you who did what, because this isn't about glorification, its just to illustrate that we don't do everything without thinking about the members. So only making rep power harder to achieve remained, along with removing rep. We decided to do both. This was after extended debating of the issue.

So it was a thought out decision, we are rethinking SOME of the numbers, and some of the numbers (ie Rep from 1000 to 600) have changed. However the basis behind the idea still stands. Rep powers are going far too high, and reputation is slowly spinning out of control. Why is it an issue? The high powers are being abused. A social order is being created where the higher your rep and rep power is, the higher up you are. This is the forum equivalent of the "The more your car cost the larger your *genitalia* is." That's redonkulous. As is the rep power thing. Also larger rep powers used their rep power to cower newer members, and they would actually -rep people they didn't like until they sat down and shut up. Obviously not acceptable.

Don't believe me about the social order? Then why not reexamine why you're mad. Why are you mad? Because you lost rep power. Why do you care about losing rep power? Because obviously you think it has some part in the respect you get. Don't feed me *crud* about how its for the satisfaction of being able to take one more point off an annoying member's rep or give one more point for that super alt. Because that is crap. You care because you have a higher number above your rep bar. I believe it was possibly one of the biggest mistakes we have ever made adding the rep power to a person's postbit. If you still don't believe me, consider this. Did anybody care about their rep power until it was included in the postbit? No. If it wasn't included in the postbit, nobody would even notice or mind the change all that much either. Everyone's complaints are about numbers. Just confirming this more.

Does it mean you have bigger ones just because you have a higher number above your rep bar? Are you morally superior to someone else because you have a bigger number there? No.

Oh yeah, and coincidentally you might consider how lucky you are. Since probably in total thousands of power were removed across the forum, tens of thousands of rep points should have been lost. People who got only three reps from neversoft should have lost about 100 points just from that. (And, no matter what you think, we weren't targeting you specifically :P)

So, present to me a logical argument that is not based off of "I want a higher rep power for the purpose of having a higher number there" and I will respond.

I have other things I want to say, but right now they're swimming around in the back of my head and I can't grab them quick enough. So let me take a different tack.

You could try it out you know. It wouldn't kill you. Last three major riots? Infractions, MAD being GM, MAD being FM. Nobody cares anymore (or at least as much). Well, people consider MAD a terrible GM now, but three days ago I can guarantee a lot fewer people disliked MAD as a GM.

Half of the people in this are caught up in a mob mentality. If you were each able to speak with an (A)GM one on one, I guarantee the numbers of protestors would be much less. However when 20 people are outraged, spreading their outrage to 3 friends each, all of a sudden it becomes a frenzy and an AGM's response is lost between 20 protesting posts, and nearly half the people don't see it.




On a completely different tack, the poll, as I'm sure you've guessed, is totally unrelated to the rant. So I would like to know what y'all think about this.

Person A gives Person B a pointless rep.

Admin finds it because of one of the circumstances that leads them to search through rep, lets not go through those now.

Rep is deleted, Admin records it and PMs it to person B explaining that its been deleted as its pointless (may be multiple reps if Person B was being searched, however if Person A was having their sent reps checked, then the Admin wouldn't randomly check Person B's recieved reps).

Person B has no consequences other than the little bit of rep points removed.

Person A, however, has the amount of all sent pointless reps over the last month added together, and double the amount is subtracted from Person A's rep by the Admin.

You can't deny the responsiblity for the reps you send. This way the person who pointless reps is punished, and its a more effective way to combat the pointless rep situation (in addition to the rep power thing, which was ridiculous for other reasons, this has to do with pointless rep but pointless rep was only one facet of the rep power thing.) So feel free to leave your opinions on this too.


And finally, on a COMPLETELY different task, there is something big coming in January that I will be putting together (and am putting together now) that I think will make things like these easier to stomach in the future, and give you an outlet, or at least a better explanation, about these kinds of issues. However no comments about that please because its not that far away and I'm not saying nawt :P

So anyway, there's my rant.

Anyone who says OMG THATS TOO LONG TO READ has in my eyes lost all validity and all their rights to complain about the issue. If they truly care, they would read it. If they don't read it, they're A) merely agitators B) jumping on the bandwagon C) finding an excuse to rip management or D) don't really care all that much.

nvr
What the hell, your on a completely different thing, i'm not sure if you read my thing, but how is this "pointless rep" thing helping..

WHAT WE REALLY WANT

I'm sure more people want their rep power, then pointless rep, yeah.. pointless rep is a problem, but thats not what people are caring about right now.

There were other soulutions that could have been put in place, but you took the easy way out, which angered everyone.

Good job management ;)

[Smits]

I think the idea in red is much better than the new system, although i do think you should of thought of more ideas and discussed them with the community first, rather than just going straight into it.

The way i see it is this, some members of staff are sick and tired of pointless rep so them themselves decide to change it, not discussing with many others.

[reindeer.]

I understand what you are saying but people sending positive reputation to each other because they are friends and therefore artificially increasing their friends reputation isn't very fair on those who work hard posting good posts in order to increase their reputation. That is what has caused the removal of "pointless" reputation that people issue. If people didn't abuse the system and did what it is meant to be used for - adding reputation to members who are helpful or do something nice, this wouldn't be a problem. It was before the changes far to easy to gain reputation and it meant this had a knock on effect in regards to lots of people having very high *artificial* reputation power which was ruining the system as it was not achieving what it was set up to do and that is to identify members who are well known and helpful. With these changes hopefully in the long run it will improve the system to a point where it is useful and an achievement to get higher reputation power. :)
if they choose to do that then so be it.
stop messing round with our accounts.

[Soy]

What the hell, your on a completely different thing, i'm not sure if you read my thing, but how is this "pointless rep" thing helping..

WHAT WE REALLY WANT

I'm sure more people want their rep power, then pointless rep, yeah.. pointless rep is a problem, but thats not what people are caring about right now.

There were other soulutions that could have been put in place, but you took the easy way out, which angered everyone.

Good job management ;)
Yeah, like the others i want the rep system back as it was. And then to tackle the pointless reputation issue.

I myself used to spread pointless rep and overall i believe i got two infractions, over 100 rep points removed and a countless number of warnings.
And i don't blame all of this on myself, i have to blame a small percentage of my rule breaking to the staff, simply because the rules are almost hidden and not stressed enough.

A good aim for the forum staff is to try and stress this rule & other rules alot more

Thanks,
ODT

[Superman]

I'm going to write a detailed response in my thread that you can get to through my sig shortly, so that (and yes, I'm being elitist/egotistical/whatever) my intelligent response doesn't get drowned out by idiots. What I am going to say just here, so that people see it, is that the idea in red is a bad idea. Any -rep can be reported as pointless and generally if you just scream "revenge rep!!!1" or "they just don't like me" it'll be deleted as such. Consequently, people would lose a lot of rep by -repping people for what may be genuine reasons.

Please people, have a brain and vote "no". Also if you succeed in getting a brain, stop with the ridiculous posting of hatred and let those who are better equipped for an argument handle it - otherwise you're just making it worse.

[Mr.OSH]

if they choose to do that then so be it.
stop messing round with our accounts.

;) It is however unfair on those who work hard for their reputation and earn it properly if other gain it unfairly by adding reputation to each others accounts. The reputations system is there to show who is the most helpful, the nicest and who writes the best posts. The system is not there to see who has the most friends with high rep counts? This just ruins the whole system and by scaling it down as it has been done it will prevent that from happening and will still allow those who wish to earn high reputation levels fairly the opportunity to do that. As I've said more than once no one has *lost* anything, the reputation power has just been scaled down to prevent further abuse of it and to stop it from being abused by certain members.


Yeah, like the others i want the rep system back as it was. And then to tackle the pointless reputation issue.

I myself used to spread pointless rep and overall i believe i got two infractions, over 100 rep points removed and a countless number of warnings.
And i don't blame all of this on myself, i have to blame a small percentage of my rule breaking to the staff, simply because the rules are almost hidden and not stressed enough.

A good aim for the forum staff is to try and stress this rule & other rules alot more

Thanks,
ODT

Infractions should stress the rules enough, we issue them so it reminds you to abide by the rules to avoid being banned. If you continue to break rules and choose to ignore these warnings then we are forced to take action against you. It is as simple as this - don't give out pointless reputation. Use the system the way it should be used and rep good posts or people who have helped you or perhaps done something good, don't just give them reputation because they asked you or because you are friends with them, that isn't the way it should be used.

[jrh2002]

Well I never -rep but my rep power of 26 (which was all earned except for that for buying VIP) was also a great tool for encouraging new members who had made a very good post and if what you are saying is true then its only admin that rep for a good reason? Most of the members here have never abused the rep system but under this new system we all suffer. I am not that bothered really but it is very de-motivating.

No lots of people rep properly but there are also lots who don't.
Personally I think everybody should have 1 rep point after 100 posts (including admin) then it goes up once every 6 months on the forum.
Nobody would get extra rep power for number of posts or reputation amount even though by the value of their rep we get some idea of their status instead of by the amount of green blocks they have.

[Dentafrice,]

Hmm thats a good idea JRH ;)

[e5]

I bet what you said in the end was "lets try it and see their reaction". I just sense that. Anyway good post by NVR but I still don't see why you are this bothered about rep to change the WHOLE system almost completly.

[Jordy]

I honestly don't think there is much of a issue with the old system. I have agreed to the idea in the red bit, however I would much rather go back to the old system.

On Friday I pointlessly repped someone for whatever reason, I forgot now, I'm not even sure if it was negative or positive. On Saturday I received a PM from the good ol' 'rep manager' Nick - What he did was remove all the positive pointless rep I'd received over the past month, and I think there was about 120 points worth of positive reputation took away. As people had been returning rep and spreading rep on me, which isn't really my fault, however I did deserve punishment for pointless repping someone, so I don't really mind. I think that system works fine and I won't pointless rep people again, and I do regret doing it, if that system isn't harsh enough, then make it more harsh, look back on 60 days or something? Bring back the old system and use the old punishments, and make them harsher if need be. Consider resetting people's rep entirely if they ignore the warnings.

[Yoshimitsui]

to be honest, you should stop fooling around with rep, and train these good for nothing moderators.

Moderators have nothing whatsoever to do with rep, the only people who can view it and modifiy it are Admins provided they have permissions to do that in the Controll pannel.

I agree on the fact it was getting way out of hand. So say that this system that you mentioned in red it put in place, would this take effect with the current reputation change? Or would it go back to normal but with more severe punishments.

I think that rep power should be scrapped from gaining a certain ammount of posts. As people post anything and everything around the forum, and with lots of members having so many posts. Then change the reputation power increse to double the ammount it was before and leave it there. That way it wouldant have an over dramatic effect like i believe it has now.

This way it could be more copeable.

[Smits]

So say that this system that you mentioned in red it put in place, would this take effect with the current reputation change? Or would it go back to normal but with more severe punishments

Yeh, i was wondering the same.

[Neversoft]

Oh yeah, and coincidentally you might consider how lucky you are. Since probably in total thousands of power were removed across the forum, tens of thousands of rep points should have been lost. People who got only three reps from neversoft should have lost about 100 points just from that. (And, no matter what you think, we weren't targeting you specifically :P)


If people only got 100 rep removed for me repping them 3 times, they would have still walked away with +68 rep. :P

[Catzsy]

No lots of people rep properly but there are also lots who don't.
Personally I think everybody should have 1 rep point after 100 posts (including admin) then it goes up once every 6 months on the forum.
Nobody would get extra rep power for number of posts or reputation amount even though by the value of their rep we get some idea of their status instead of by the amount of green blocks they have.

Thats a very good idea indeed and I think most people agree with that. The green blocks would be the indicator rather then a number. Also those who kept a stable account a long time would get the credit for it. Happy New Year James xxx (not not kissing bottom) - known him for years.:D

[@xP]

I just want it back to how it was mate.

[Nixt]

I agree with the majority of your post, Mr. nvrspk4! I do believe that there is something management are missing out, though. It is indeed true that a lot of those complaining are annoyed that they have lost rep power, or they are annoyed with the fact that it's going to be harder for them to increase their rep power. However, another big issue that is arising now with this change, and the changes before is the fact that members were in no way consulted. I believe that members were considered, but when something like this is simply sprung upon them it is obvious they will feel angry that their opinions don't seem to count (even though you may be doing what is best for them).
I agree with the decisions to sort out reputation 100%, but I do think that the communication side of things on Habbox needs improvement. Every time something like this happens, and with the other examples you gave in your post, there is annoyance at the event but also at the communication in regards to the event. It looks as if you may be working on something similar to the council idea though, judging on the "there is something big coming in January" comment (although I can't be sure). One hopes that this will help resolve the communication issue once and for all.

[reindeer.]

i can't help thinking management must be doing something wrong if there is a huge batch of complaints every time a change is made.

[benjamin]

I'm going to write a detailed response in my thread that you can get to through my sig shortly, so that (and yes, I'm being elitist/egotistical/whatever) my intelligent response doesn't get drowned out by idiots. What I am going to say just here, so that people see it, is that the idea in red is a bad idea. Any -rep can be reported as pointless and generally if you just scream "revenge rep!!!1" or "they just don't like me" it'll be deleted as such. Consequently, people would lose a lot of rep by -repping people for what may be genuine reasons.

Please people, have a brain and vote "no". Also if you succeed in getting a brain, stop with the ridiculous posting of hatred and let those who are better equipped for an argument handle it - otherwise you're just making it worse.
Tom, the link in your signature doesn't work.
I hope they didn't get rid of your thread, because atleast you used your brains when trying to confront them about the issue "/

[Superman]

FIXED LINK LOL

Edited by opensourcehost (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not post pointlessly.

[WarezKid]

Meh, i dont mind. lol

[The Professor]

As has been said, I think the high management have tried to tackle a problem that doesnt exist. This is further illustrated by the "rep wasnt pointless... now it is!" sig that Jordy has.

Unless I am being thicker than a whale omlette, I would have thought the management's problem with rep power couldve been solved with something nvr himself said, namely:


I believe it was possibly one of the biggest mistakes we have ever made adding the rep power to a person's postbit.

Surely removing that number from the postbit would eradicate the problem high management have with people simply gaining rep for the number in their postbit? Reducing the amount of rep power doesn't appear to have solved many, if any, problems. In fact, scanning over the whole rant again, that is the basic point of every paragraph. I doubt anyone would complain if it was removed.

[joshuar]

As has been said, I think the high management have tried to tackle a problem that doesnt exist. This is further illustrated by the "rep wasnt pointless... now it is!" sig that Jordy has.

Unless I am being thicker than a whale omlette, I would have thought the management's problem with rep power couldve been solved with something nvr himself said, namely:



Surely removing that number from the postbit would eradicate the problem high management have with people simply gaining rep for the number in their postbit? Reducing the amount of rep power doesn't appear to have solved many, if any, problems. In fact, scanning over the whole rant again, that is the basic point of every paragraph. I doubt anyone would complain if it was removed.

I don't think people would enjoy the rep power being removed from post bits. As people like to see how much power they have.

However, as stressed before, the reason it was done as reputation is a small section of the forum. When you rep it shouldn't have a great impact on the persons reputation scores. Only a small effect, so you can't take off loads of points, or boost someones reputation quickly.

That is the reason for the rep power reduction. Not because we are trying to make new problems for ourselves.

[Catzsy]

How many times can we rep a day now. I have repped about 3 really good posts and wanted to rep a couple more - Jay and Jimi for swiftly helping me to retrieve my account a few minutes ago where they were extremely helpful. I managed to rep Jay but then I can't rep anymore for 24 hours?
Does that mean we can only rep 5 times a day?

[mat64]

How many times can we rep a day now. I have repped about 3 really good posts and wanted to rep a couple more - Jay and Jimi for swiftly helping me to retrieve my account a few minutes ago where they were extremely helpful. I managed to rep Jay but then I can't rep anymore for 24 hours?
Does that mean we can only rep 5 times a day?
Yeh it's only 5 per day now, it's the last bit of reputation FAQ :)

Other -Once you have repped someone you must rep another 30 people before you can rep the same person again.
-You may only rep 5 people a day

[Catzsy]

Yeh it's only 5 per day now, it's the last bit of reputation FAQ :)

Oooh thats a tad harsh - i should have looked there but thanks Mat +rep(2009):O:D

[Hitman]

All in the FAQ.

I don't care about it anymore - it's just rep at the end of the day. Sure, people like collecting it etc, it's gone down and it's not as if it's too bad... although it could be a bit better.

So let's all just get used to it now. :)