The difference between a Argument and a Debate

[Pyroka]

An argument is:


an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation: a violent argument.

Whereas, a debate is:


a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints.

I would just like to make this point clear and hope that the Moderators of this forum, whatever their rank may be, understand the difference between a discussion and an argument. I would say it was the 2nd most common cause for threads being closed.

Both very similar in meaning, but the heart of it is rather different. That is omething almost all Moderators on this forum do not understand. But then, you don't see many forums opening up to designate a debate on something, unless organised by staff themselves do you. That also being something which is in need on most 'argumentitive' catagories of HabboxForum.

Thanks.

PS. If you even dare move this thread, then you've got alot more understanding to do. This is not a complaint, just a mere pointing of the obvious.

[FlyingJesus]

I didn't get no oral disagreement from your mother last night

[GommeInc]

And if anyone is clever enough to realise, an argument is included in a debate :rolleyes:

I hate marmite because.... - Is one side of an argument
I love marmite because... - Is the other side.

Huge giant woffle about marmite = debate.

Arguments are in a debate. If you don't realise that, you probably shouldn't be doing English or Philosophy or infact anything at all english related in schools e.g. law.

[Pyroka]

Well then, why don't they just shut down the whole debates forum? :)

[GommeInc]

Well then, why don't they just shut down the whole debates forum? :)
Does make me wonder, because you get multiple arguments and then debate about them. It seems Moderators are hired on... Actually I'm not entirely sure. Normally you're meant to hire staff on how well they do jobs with fairness to members and they should be very analytical. At the moment they just close when a few negative comments have been thrown about, even though they're not negative.

One Mod (can't remember his name) made a very stupid comment saying he closes threads when he believes they'll turn into an argument. Guess work, not real work. Silly Mod.

[FlyingJesus]

I think the definition of "argument" which they want to avoid is the pointless, insulting type. Of course, me saying this is an argument because it's a point of view being put across, but it's a different type of argument than it would be if I said "NO STOP BEING WRONG YOU [starstarstarstar] IDIOT" or something of such intelligence.

[Pyroka]

Some MODs are very silly. :P Yeah you basically said my entire point there. They close threads when they feel there's negative comments, despite they're not. It's been irritating me since I joined this forum. Nothing has changed either, and you think it would.

@Above, I agree with that. No-one wants insults flying around but its when a thread is not insulting, but in fact discussing valid points. Was that not what forum originated on? In the roman times, where they had the Senate? I thought a forum was a place to discuss points and, in most cases, let them be opposed by others. Moderators though, don't take that into account. At all.

[GommeInc]

They also close threads which they shouldn't close because there is no reason to. If a serious, abusive argument breaks out, remove what has been mentioned with a warn and they'll come down. Closing a thread down immediately is the lazy way out and causes more problems than it solves "/

[Pyroka]

They also close threads which they shouldn't close because there is no reason to. If a serious, abusive argument breaks out, remove what has been mentioned with a warn and they'll come down. Closing a thread down immediately is the lazy way out and causes more problems than it solves "/

Aka negligence. Nothing will change unless the MODs change the way they moderate. When it's a certain member(s) being abusive, the thread is just closed and the member(s) move onto the next topic. It's irritating because you can't give your own opinion on a matter, because some members are idiots.

EDIT: I found out why Moderators would never close threads in the debates section! ---MAD--- does all the posting! =P

[The Professor]

Aka negligence. Nothing will change unless the MODs change the way they moderate. When it's a certain member(s) being abusive, the thread is just closed and the member(s) move onto the next topic. It's irritating because you can't give your own opinion on a matter, because some members are idiots.


Okay, before I write anything I'd like to point out that your criticism about moderators' moderation and when/why they close threads should NOT be directed at the moderators. We are following a set of guidelines set out by the habboxforum management. It is our job to enforce the habbox rules using the guidelines set out in the moderator's guide, not to take it into our own hands to make up our own rules or choose when or when not to enforce them. If you have a problem with when/why threads are closed, your comments should be directed at the management team.

As for the point of the thread, I'm sure the vast majority of moderators are intelligent enough to know when an argument is constructive (or a "debate") and when it has turned into a flame war that is no longer about the topic of the thread. If you think a thread has been closed unfairly by a moderator, PM a super moderator and he will ***** the situation. But aside from the out-of-the-ordinary cases (e.g. the one Gomme pointed out) it rarely happens.

[GommeInc]

Okay, before I write anything I'd like to point out that your criticism about moderators' moderation and when/why they close threads should NOT be directed at the moderators. We are following a set of guidelines set out by the habboxforum management. It is our job to enforce the habbox rules using the guidelines set out in the moderator's guide, not to take it into our own hands to make up our own rules or choose when or when not to enforce them. If you have a problem with when/why threads are closed, your comments should be directed at the management team.

As for the point of the thread, I'm sure the vast majority of moderators are intelligent enough to know when an argument is constructive (or a "debate") and when it has turned into a flame war that is no longer about the topic of the thread. If you think a thread has been closed unfairly by a moderator, PM a super moderator and he will ***** the situation. But aside from the out-of-the-ordinary cases (e.g. the one Gomme pointed out) it rarely happens.
So why did one of the moderators suggest that HE closes threads when HE believes an argument is about to set out? There seems to be some confusion. Also, as it is your job, surely you're more likely to get through the barmy managements beliefs that any negativity shouldn't be allowed. Especially when you don't like the fact you're getting the blame. We wouldn't know, you do, so you should suggest that things are relaxed a little. Even though there are conflicting theories that you make up the rules yourself and the management tell you what to do :D

[Pyroka]

My criticism about Moderators actions should most definitely be directed at Moderators. Maybe not as a whole, but most of them do. I do not think it's bad you follow orders, however most Moderators take this orders and they enforce them in a rather harsh and silly way.

If you can't choose when or when not to enforce a rule, then you shouldn't be a moderator. I'd direct my comments to the Management team, and I know that from experience they do listen, however I know what they shall say. A manager will not change his mind on a Moderators action, or at least rarely does without a obvious mistake. Humility for those guys is not a strong point, I also know that from experience.

When you say flame war, you mean insulting, yes? If not, then do explain. :)

Thanks for your response Professor, it's appreciated.

[:....:mike:....:]

As for the point of the thread, I'm sure the vast majority of moderators are intelligent enough to know when an argument is constructive (or a "debate") and when it has turned into a flame war that is no longer about the topic of the thread. If you think a thread has been closed unfairly by a moderator, PM a super moderator and he will ***** the situation. But aside from the out-of-the-ordinary cases (e.g. the one Gomme pointed out) it rarely happens.

Debates have a tendency to get off topic because something has been brought up that may have been stronger then the original topic. You can't blame the users for talking about it, sometime or another, the topic may go back on track but if a moderator closes it and we can't post there anymore then what was the point of that thread?

Although you find all the mods to be "perfect" and that they follow the guidelines quite well, you are wrong because this does happen daily and this does happen unfairly as well. I have 2 links in my sig, they both have perfectly reasonable arguments, and yes, one of them got off track but it was a perfectly fine discussion. There was nothing wrong with it and it was in the SPAM section too. :eusa_wall At the end of the day, mods are instructed to look professional but only make a fool of themselves because they don't know how correctly to deal with debates.

Like Pyroka said from the first post, mods don't know the definition of debate and argument. That is why we have this problem on this forum.

Ps. Sorry I butt in :P

Edit: Damn...This forum has harsh standards. You can barely say something without it being over-analyzed.

[Pyroka]

Debates have a tendency to get off topic because something has been brought up that may have been stronger then the original topic. You can't blame the users for talking about it, sometime or another, the topic may go back on track but if a moderator closes it and we can't post there anymore then what was the point of that thread?

Although you find all the mods to be "perfect" and that they follow the guidelines quite well, you are wrong because this does happen daily and this does happen unfairly as well. I have 2 links in my sig, they both have perfectly reasonable arguments, and yes, one of them got off track but it was a perfectly fine discussion. There was nothing wrong with it and it was in the SPAM section too. :eusa_wall At the end of the day, mods are instructed to look professional but only make a fool of themselves because they don't know how correctly to deal with debates.

Like Pyroka said from the first post, mods don't know the definition of debate and argument. That is why we have this problem on this forum.

Ps. Sorry I butt in :P

Edit: Damn...This forum has harsh standards. You can barely say something without it being over-analyzed.

When it comes to making a point, I think you need to be over-analysed. When you're a MOD, you need to be an analysist and someone who can make decisions. It's lucky they're not a moderator for real-time, like I am. You'll find split decisions are much harder than 5 minute ones. This is one the Moderators themselves will have to learn, not Management.

[Catzsy]

Okay, before I write anything I'd like to point out that your criticism about moderators' moderation and when/why they close threads should NOT be directed at the moderators. We are following a set of guidelines set out by the habboxforum management. It is our job to enforce the habbox rules using the guidelines set out in the moderator's guide, not to take it into our own hands to make up our own rules or choose when or when not to enforce them. If you have a problem with when/why threads are closed, your comments should be directed at the management team.

As for the point of the thread, I'm sure the vast majority of moderators are intelligent enough to know when an argument is constructive (or a "debate") and when it has turned into a flame war that is no longer about the topic of the thread. If you think a thread has been closed unfairly by a moderator, PM a super moderator and he will ***** the situation. But aside from the out-of-the-ordinary cases (e.g. the one Gomme pointed out) it rarely happens.


With respect Alex, it is the Moderator's job most of the time to close the threads and so they 'do take it into their own hands' because they close them. It is up to them to use their judgment on how to interpret the guidelines so the responsibilty firstly is theirs.

Having said that maybe Pyroka could list a few example threads and it maybe something that the Council could look at on behalf of the VIPs and Members if it is a common problem.

[Pyroka]

I was hoping you'd say that Catzsy. You're one of the Moderators who actually took their time, alot like what mat64 does. Shame you resigned, but it was for the better of members. (I mean the council thing by the way!)

I can only blame power-abusing from Moderators, and being rash in decisions, along with the above reasons. I could definitely get more than a few 'example threads' if it helps.

[Catzsy]

I was hoping you'd say that Catzsy. You're one of the Moderators who actually took their time, alot like what mat64 does. Shame you resigned, but it was for the better of members. (I mean the council thing by the way!)

I can only blame power-abusing from Moderators, and being rash in decisions, along with the above reasons. I could definitely get more than a few 'example threads' if it helps.

Okay well you can post them here or pm me with them and I can nominate for discussion by the Council :)

[Pyroka]

Ill PM you when I'm back from downtown. I've actually came up with a few good ideas.. Some of which Moderators would actually agree with, and what I see one or two Moderators doing despite they're apparently banned from doing so.

See you inabit!

[Catzsy]

Ill PM you when I'm back from downtown. I've actually came up with a few good ideas.. Some of which Moderators would actually agree with, and what I see one or two Moderators doing despite they're apparently banned from doing so.

See you inabit!

Great! The more ideas the better :D

[JackBuddy]

Those Habbo X threads are a great example.

The original one was closed, without any comment. We were having a nice discussion there. The MOD who closed it (who didn't leave their name...) seems to have some sort of phobia of active threads, as if they can't be bothered to moderate them.

Anyway, I created a new one and that was then closed because an existing topic is open... (when it was closed)

So as it is still news, can an admin with common sense please re-open the thread.

[Agesilaus]

I can see what you guys are saying, from a member's perspective when probably a lot of you were apart of the discussion and were enjoying it.

Generally, active threads get closed because the purpose of the thread is breaking the rules (in some cases, these are removed from the public view of the forum). Or because there are lots of arguing in a thread and lots of members are involved where most of them take it to the degree where they are breaking the rules while arguing. I don't see many alternative reasons why active threads should get closed.

I disagree with how a lot of people don't consider that these judgments could be mistakenly made or mistakenly encouraged because they were also encouraged to do so by another moderator. This may also happen due to inexperience and they've made a mistake with their judgment (the amount of new moderators justify this). If we find this happening, we generally give the moderator a reminder. And in some cases management remind us all about our guidelines, if it's happening constantly by different moderators and tell us what they think should happen. Moderators are also Humans (shock horror), we are not always perfect and we all make mistakes on occassions, as much as we try not to. Power-abuse is not making a mistake, mistakes are not intentional considering circumstances. Where as power-abuse is where the moderator is fully aware they are breaking the rules with the intension of doing so and I'm sure this does not happen frequently. If you think there is an issue here, it should be reported to Elkaa or J1MI.

I suppose it's a good idea to bring it up in the council for the management to look into. Of course, no real action can be taken unless the forum management decide to do something to encourage what the team should do as a hole. I'm all for improving the forum. :)

In response to several specific points raised:



Also, as it is your job, surely you're more likely to get through the barmy managements beliefs that any negativity shouldn't be allowed. Especially when you don't like the fact you're getting the blame. We wouldn't know, you do, so you should suggest that things are relaxed a little. Even though there are conflicting theories that you make up the rules yourself and the management tell you what to do :D
I agree to a certain extent. It does depend on the situation. If we ignore rule breaking too much, the management will start having a go at us for not enforcing the rules they set. We are monitored like that, so they can see whether we are doing our job. Sometimes as a moderator it is best to let it go, if the rule breaking is incredibly mild.


My criticism about Moderators actions should most definitely be directed at Moderators. Maybe not as a whole, but most of them do. I do not think it's bad you follow orders, however most Moderators take this orders and they enforce them in a rather harsh and silly way.

Some moderators may deal with situations more harsh than others and in some cases this is unfair. I think most of us try to deal with things in a way that isn't too harsh but also where the management are happy for us dealing with it in that way.


If you can't choose when or when not to enforce a rule, then you shouldn't be a moderator.
I disagree to a certain extent. It depends on the situation, some rules are pretty straight forward not to break and what not to do, we can't exactly choose what rules we can and cannot enforce ourselves. It's how we deal with the rule breaking where we can choose on a wider line. However, there are iffy situations that spring up and this is where judgment makes the best of you. For me, I tend to encourage discussion with the other smods with these. This way, it's a team decision and if one thinks it's too harsh for certain action to be taken, we can discuss if needed. If it needs leaving, it is left.



With respect Alex, it is the Moderator's job most of the time to close the threads and so they 'do take it into their own hands' because they close them. It is up to them to use their judgment on how to interpret the guidelines so the responsibilty firstly is theirs.
Indeed, every rule breaking situation is our responsibility when we are dealing with it, ensuring that we are taking the appropriate action for the situation.


Anyway, I created a new one and that was then closed because an existing topic is open... (when it was closed)
If the purpose of the topic isn't breaking the rules and an original gets closed due to arguing + rule breaking, then in my opinion, it is fine to create another thread. However, if the discussion of the thread leads the same direction the previous one did, then it may be closed again. If this happens once more, the moderator may instruct a member not to post about that same topic as it is just feeding arguments which is causing rule breaking to occur << my opinion on handling situations like that.

[nvrspk4]

The way I classify the difference between an argument and a debate for the purposes of forum rulebreaking is that an argument involves attacks on the person whereas a debate involves attacks (or comments) on the issue. That's the simple differentiation I make.


And if anyone is clever enough to realise, an argument is included in a debate :rolleyes:

I hate marmite because.... - Is one side of an argument
I love marmite because... - Is the other side.

Huge giant woffle about marmite = debate.

Arguments are in a debate. If you don't realise that, you probably shouldn't be doing English or Philosophy or infact anything at all english related in schools e.g. law.

Of course, that's the more literal form of argument. In that sense, everything is an argument. Saying "Hello", you make the argument that you're a nice person and you deserve a response. However nobody would get infracted for arguing for saying hello (although if that was all that was posted, they might get done for pointless posting :P) I don't think the discussion involves the literary argument though.


I can only blame power-abusing from Moderators, and being rash in decisions, along with the above reasons. I could definitely get more than a few 'example threads' if it helps.

I think that's a little bit harsh to say. Everyone makes mistakes and everyone sees things from a different view. For example, there was a post from one person who replied to a thread about a black and proud group, replying "I don't see why you're proud to be black." I read it as "Being black is nothing to be proud of" in a derogatory way. However when I was PMd saying that he meant that being black didn't make any difference than being white and he didn't see why you would be proud just because you were a different race. That made more sense, I just didn't see it that way at first. Mistakes are possible.


I can see what you guys are saying, from a member's perspective when probably a lot of you were apart of the discussion and were enjoying it.

Generally, active threads get closed because the purpose of the thread is breaking the rules (in some cases, these are removed from the public view of the forum). Or because there are lots of arguing in a thread and lots of members are involved where most of them take it to the degree where they are breaking the rules while arguing. I don't see many alternative reasons why active threads should get closed.

I disagree with how a lot of people don't consider that these judgments could be mistakenly made or mistakenly encouraged because they were also encouraged to do so by another moderator. This may also happen due to inexperience and they've made a mistake with their judgment (the amount of new moderators justify this). If we find this happening, we generally give the moderator a reminder. And in some cases management remind us all about our guidelines, if it's happening constantly by different moderators and tell us what they think should happen. Moderators are also Humans (shock horror), we are not always perfect and we all make mistakes on occassions, as much as we try not to. Power-abuse is not making a mistake, mistakes are not intentional considering circumstances. Where as power-abuse is where the moderator is fully aware they are breaking the rules with the intension of doing so and I'm sure this does not happen frequently. If you think there is an issue here, it should be reported to Elkaa or J1MI.

I suppose it's a good idea to bring it up in the council for the management to look into. Of course, no real action can be taken unless the forum management decide to do something to encourage what the team should do as a hole. I'm all for improving the forum. :)

In response to several specific points raised:


I agree to a certain extent. It does depend on the situation. If we ignore rule breaking too much, the management will start having a go at us for not enforcing the rules they set. We are monitored like that, so they can see whether we are doing our job. Sometimes as a moderator it is best to let it go, if the rule breaking is incredibly mild.


Some moderators may deal with situations more harsh than others and in some cases this is unfair. I think most of us try to deal with things in a way that isn't too harsh but also where the management are happy for us dealing with it in that way.


I disagree to a certain extent. It depends on the situation, some rules are pretty straight forward not to break and what not to do, we can't exactly choose what rules we can and cannot enforce ourselves. It's how we deal with the rule breaking where we can choose on a wider line. However, there are iffy situations that spring up and this is where judgment makes the best of you. For me, I tend to encourage discussion with the other smods with these. This way, it's a team decision and if one thinks it's too harsh for certain action to be taken, we can discuss if needed. If it needs leaving, it is left.


Indeed, every rule breaking situation is our responsibility when we are dealing with it, ensuring that we are taking the appropriate action for the situation.


If the purpose of the topic isn't breaking the rules and an original gets closed due to arguing + rule breaking, then in my opinion, it is fine to create another thread. However, if the discussion of the thread leads the same direction the previous one did, then it may be closed again. If this happens once more, the moderator may instruct a member not to post about that same topic as it is just feeding arguments which is causing rule breaking to occur << my opinion on handling situations like that.

Damnit to hell Age, are you trying to steal my position as Mr. Long Posts????

FIRED M8!

[Agesilaus]

Damnit to hell Age, are you trying to steal my position as Mr. Long Posts????

I think you've just met another one. Your post was pretty long.


FIRED M8!

HRSH!

[FlyingJesus]

You know what they say about guys with long posts...

[Agesilaus]

You know what they say about guys with long posts...

We just like talking a lot, sometimes when we have an opinion. =]

[Cixso]

You know what they say about guys with long posts...

Yeah, small penis.

[Catzsy]

I can see what you guys are saying, from a member's perspective when probably a lot of you were apart of the discussion and were enjoying it.

Generally, active threads get closed because the purpose of the thread is breaking the rules (in some cases, these are removed from the public view of the forum). Or because there are lots of arguing in a thread and lots of members are involved where most of them take it to the degree where they are breaking the rules while arguing. I don't see many alternative reasons why active threads should get closed.

I disagree with how a lot of people don't consider that these judgments could be mistakenly made or mistakenly encouraged because they were also encouraged to do so by another moderator. This may also happen due to inexperience and they've made a mistake with their judgment (the amount of new moderators justify this). If we find this happening, we generally give the moderator a reminder. And in some cases management remind us all about our guidelines, if it's happening constantly by different moderators and tell us what they think should happen. Moderators are also Humans (shock horror), we are not always perfect and we all make mistakes on occassions, as much as we try not to. Power-abuse is not making a mistake, mistakes are not intentional considering circumstances. Where as power-abuse is where the moderator is fully aware they are breaking the rules with the intension of doing so and I'm sure this does not happen frequently. If you think there is an issue here, it should be reported to Elkaa or J1MI.

I suppose it's a good idea to bring it up in the council for the management to look into. Of course, no real action can be taken unless the forum management decide to do something to encourage what the team should do as a hole. I'm all for improving the forum. :)

In response to several specific points raised:


I agree to a certain extent. It does depend on the situation. If we ignore rule breaking too much, the management will start having a go at us for not enforcing the rules they set. We are monitored like that, so they can see whether we are doing our job. Sometimes as a moderator it is best to let it go, if the rule breaking is incredibly mild.


Some moderators may deal with situations more harsh than others and in some cases this is unfair. I think most of us try to deal with things in a way that isn't too harsh but also where the management are happy for us dealing with it in that way.


I disagree to a certain extent. It depends on the situation, some rules are pretty straight forward not to break and what not to do, we can't exactly choose what rules we can and cannot enforce ourselves. It's how we deal with the rule breaking where we can choose on a wider line. However, there are iffy situations that spring up and this is where judgment makes the best of you. For me, I tend to encourage discussion with the other smods with these. This way, it's a team decision and if one thinks it's too harsh for certain action to be taken, we can discuss if needed. If it needs leaving, it is left.


Indeed, every rule breaking situation is our responsibility when we are dealing with it, ensuring that we are taking the appropriate action for the situation.


If the purpose of the topic isn't breaking the rules and an original gets closed due to arguing + rule breaking, then in my opinion, it is fine to create another thread. However, if the discussion of the thread leads the same direction the previous one did, then it may be closed again. If this happens once more, the moderator may instruct a member not to post about that same topic as it is just feeding arguments which is causing rule breaking to occur << my opinion on handling situations like that.


This is a very good post and it boils down to the age old arguement which
indirectly & partially led to me leaving the staff because I was so incensed that my training programme idea was hijacked and I was not going to have a part in it which led me to become revolting (yes I know to some I am just revolting :P) The Mod staff need a structured training programme. It's really not good for the forum or the mods to have 10/12 new entrants just thrust onto the forum with 'read the guide and if you need to know anything pm me'. There could be one in place but having read this thread I tend to think not. If there is now please accept my apologies.

There is a safety net in place for incorrect infractions because the Smods check each one but there doesn't seem to be any real 'quality control' about things like thread closures or even general attitudes of Mods.

We still need specific examples of wrongly closed threads though :D

[Orangeesh]

Those Habbo X threads are a great example.

The original one was closed, without any comment. We were having a nice discussion there. The MOD who closed it (who didn't leave their name...) seems to have some sort of phobia of active threads, as if they can't be bothered to moderate them.

Anyway, I created a new one and that was then closed because an existing topic is open... (when it was closed)

So as it is still news, can an admin with common sense please re-open the thread.

I don't see how you can say that considering I continued to moderate the thread over the 260 replies it had. The thread was closed for a very good reason, members were posting off-topic, being rude to members and being rude to the new HabboX's who also use this forum. As a mod we have to follow the mod guide and enforce the rules even if a couple of member's like yourself were having a good debate.

With the new thread being posted, personally I didn't have a problem with it as long as you kept it clean and stayed on-topic.

[Favourtism]

The way I classify the difference between an argument and a debate for the purposes of forum rulebreaking is that an argument involves attacks on the person whereas a debate involves attacks (or comments) on the issue. That's the simple differentiation I make.



Of course, that's the more literal form of argument. In that sense, everything is an argument. Saying "Hello", you make the argument that you're a nice person and you deserve a response. However nobody would get infracted for arguing for saying hello (although if that was all that was posted, they might get done for pointless posting :P) I don't think the discussion involves the literary argument though.



I think that's a little bit harsh to say. Everyone makes mistakes and everyone sees things from a different view. For example, there was a post from one person who replied to a thread about a black and proud group, replying "I don't see why you're proud to be black." I read it as "Being black is nothing to be proud of" in a derogatory way. However when I was PMd saying that he meant that being black didn't make any difference than being white and he didn't see why you would be proud just because you were a different race. That made more sense, I just didn't see it that way at first. Mistakes are possible.



Damnit to hell Age, are you trying to steal my position as Mr. Long Posts????

FIRED M8!
Have you not seen Jays posts? :P

I think you've just met another one. Your post was pretty long.



HRSH!
LukeLongPostZilla


Right, usually a thread is closed for arguements if lots of rules are breing broke and there is rudeness towards users. it is onee thing to have a strong yet fine debate compared to a full attack on a group of people e.g. eXperts.

[Moh]

Some MODs are very silly. :P Yeah you basically said my entire point there. They close threads when they feel there's negative comments, despite they're not. It's been irritating me since I joined this forum. Nothing has changed either, and you think it would.

@Above, I agree with that. No-one wants insults flying around but its when a thread is not insulting, but in fact discussing valid points. Was that not what forum originated on? In the roman times, where they had the Senate? I thought a forum was a place to discuss points and, in most cases, let them be opposed by others. Moderators though, don't take that into account. At all.

Yea, you then end up getting RE threads because no one has been warned.

[JackBuddy]

Have you not seen Jays posts? :P [quote]
You never told me why you closed my thread, I explained that the other one was closed, but you chose to ignore me.

[quote=Tweety;4410584]I don't see how you can say that considering I continued to moderate the thread over the 260 replies it had. The thread was closed for a very good reason, members were posting off-topic, being rude to members and being rude to the new HabboX's who also use this forum. As a mod we have to follow the mod guide and enforce the rules even if a couple of member's like yourself were having a good debate.

With the new thread being posted, personally I didn't have a problem with it as long as you kept it clean and stayed on-topic.
Well there was an active discussion, you only needed to edit some posts and give warnings, no reason to close it.
You should also explain at the end of the thread why you closed it too...

[Mentor]

I don't really think i need to point out the correlation between "opposing viewpoints." and "oral disagreement; verbal opposition;"

Unless you plan to debate telepathically at least.

[Catzsy]

Habbo X thread
http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=450530

I have been through the above Habbox X thread and out of 265 posts there were 12 edits of minor rudeness although I cannot for the life of me think what was rude about this:S
Link: http://www.habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=4404634&postcount=16

That is not even a 5% rule breaking average and there was really nothing
very rude at all.

In addition there were approximately 8 off topics by about 3 people one of which was this - again it was a reasonable question.

Link:http://www.habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=4407880&postcount=264

This just looks like a long normal Habbo UK thread to me with a lot of strong opinions I agree but it was certainly not continuous rule breaking of a serious nature or hardly warrants as much spamming at all.

In my opinion closing this thread was harsh particuarly as there was very little rule breaking apparent when it was. I also see a lot of closed threads where people have duplicated subjects or put threads in the forum where there is a stickie which used to be merged with the appropriate thread:S

Then when JackBuddy wanted to continue the discussion on the Habbox X's it was closed straightway - I can see no reason for this at all, myself as there was no rule breaking in it and people would have only replied if they were interested in doing so.

Link: http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=450915


I would say that there was not really any reason at all to close this and although the rules are there to be followed it is obvious that a lot of people were genuinely interested in contributing to this thread including a lot of staff and Miss Alice.

The Habbo Section members is large are very loyal to this forum and I believe perhaps a little more common sense should have been applied here and maybe an Smod to check that threads are being closed correctly?

I am happy to nominate this for the council agenda if people want it.

Thanks :)

[GommeInc]

Habbo X thread
http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=450530

I have been through the above Habbox X thread and out of 265 posts there were 12 edits of minor rudeness although I cannot for the life of me think what was rude about this:S
Link: http://www.habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=4404634&postcount=16

That is not even a 5% rule breaking average and there was really nothing
very rude at all.

In addition there were approximately 8 off topics by about 3 people one of which was this - again it was a reasonable question.

Link:http://www.habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=4407880&postcount=264

This just looks like a long normal Habbo UK thread to me with a lot of strong opinions I agree but it was certainly not continuous rule breaking of a serious nature or hardly warrants as much spamming at all.

In my opinion closing this thread was harsh particuarly as there was very little rule breaking apparent when it was. I also see a lot of closed threads where people have duplicated subjects or put threads in the forum where there is a stickie which used to be merged with the appropriate thread:S

Then when JackBuddy wanted to continue the discussion on the Habbox X's it was closed straightway - I can see no reason for this at all, myself as there was no rule breaking in it and people would have only replied if they were interested in doing so.

Link: http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=450915


I would say that there was not really any reason at all to close this and although the rules are there to be followed it is obvious that a lot of people were genuinely interested in contributing to this thread including a lot of staff and Miss Alice.

The Habbo Section members is large are very loyal to this forum and I believe perhaps a little more common sense should have been applied here and maybe an Smod to check that threads are being closed correctly?

I am happy to nominate this for the council agenda if people want it.

Thanks :)
Perhaps we could put something out about this for the council? Not sure how we could work around that though... Shall we discuss using the PM medium?

[Catzsy]

Perhaps we could put something out about this for the council? Not sure how we could work around that though... Shall we discuss using the PM medium?

Well we could talk about it in the Council Forum to get others views as there does seem to be a misunderstanding or varying standards in moderation when it comes to closing threads :)

[Favourtism]

[quote=Favourtism;4410620]Have you not seen Jays posts? :P [quote]
You never told me why you closed my thread, I explained that the other one was closed, but you chose to ignore me.


Well there was an active discussion, you only needed to edit some posts and give warnings, no reason to close it.
You should also explain at the end of the thread why you closed it too...
The previous thread about X's had just bene closed for lots of rulebreaking etc and then you create a new one. This new thread is just going to be the sam as the last one: basically a ray of insults towards habbo experts.


Habbo X thread
http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=450530

I have been through the above Habbox X thread and out of 265 posts there were 12 edits of minor rudeness although I cannot for the life of me think what was rude about this:S
Link: http://www.habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=4404634&postcount=16

That is not even a 5% rule breaking average and there was really nothing
very rude at all.

In addition there were approximately 8 off topics by about 3 people one of which was this - again it was a reasonable question.

Link:http://www.habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=4407880&postcount=264

This just looks like a long normal Habbo UK thread to me with a lot of strong opinions I agree but it was certainly not continuous rule breaking of a serious nature or hardly warrants as much spamming at all.

In my opinion closing this thread was harsh particuarly as there was very little rule breaking apparent when it was. I also see a lot of closed threads where people have duplicated subjects or put threads in the forum where there is a stickie which used to be merged with the appropriate thread:S

Then when JackBuddy wanted to continue the discussion on the Habbox X's it was closed straightway - I can see no reason for this at all, myself as there was no rule breaking in it and people would have only replied if they were interested in doing so.

Link: http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=450915


I would say that there was not really any reason at all to close this and although the rules are there to be followed it is obvious that a lot of people were genuinely interested in contributing to this thread including a lot of staff and Miss Alice.

The Habbo Section members is large are very loyal to this forum and I believe perhaps a little more common sense should have been applied here and maybe an Smod to check that threads are being closed correctly?

I am happy to nominate this for the council agenda if people want it.

Thanks :)
I would not of closed the original thread personally but another moderator did which I cannot be held responsible for. Then another thread was created and because the other thread was closed, I felt I should backup that moderator so I closed the new thread as all it would be is another attack on habbo experts.

[Agesilaus]

This is a very good post and it boils down to the age old arguement which
indirectly & partially led to me leaving the staff because I was so incensed that my training programme idea was hijacked and I was not going to have a part in it which led me to become revolting (yes I know to some I am just revolting :P) The Mod staff need a structured training programme. It's really not good for the forum or the mods to have 10/12 new entrants just thrust onto the forum with 'read the guide and if you need to know anything pm me'. There could be one in place but having read this thread I tend to think not. If there is now please accept my apologies.

I have a great deal of respect for you reading my reasonably long post. I find some people don't like doing that. :P When I have a lot to say about an issue, I have a lot of points to make and it's good to see that someone has taken the time to listen. :)

About what you're saying here - a training system would be a good idea. With what we have now, we check infractions and if there is a problem with an infraction I tell the moderator who issued the infraction (well I do), this makes them better because they know what happened and if they disagree they can discuss that with me.

Another thing...


It's really not good for the forum or the mods to have 10/12 new entrants just thrust onto the forum with 'read the guide and if you need to know anything pm me'.

I find this only works with some mods. I get a little worried when a new mod doesn't ask questions about what to do and whatever when they might be inexperienced and might not have had a moderator's job on Habbox before, and are making mistakes/feeling nervous on their first time. I don't know if they're nervous to ask, they should never be. As long as they are asking someone when they're not sure, I'm happy. :D


There is a safety net in place for incorrect infractions because the Smods check each one but there doesn't seem to be any real 'quality control' about things like thread closures or even general attitudes of Mods.

Much like I said before, however, if we see moderators not doing exactly the correct thing, we send them PMs and help them out. It would be nice to have 'Problem Tracker' where everytime a moderator does something not exactly right or makes a mistake, we know about it. But that is just my imagination. :P



Habbo X thread
http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=450530

I have been through the above Habbox X thread and out of 265 posts there were 12 edits of minor rudeness although I cannot for the life of me think what was rude about this:S
Link: http://www.habboxforum.com/showpost....4&postcount=16 (http://www.habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=4404634&postcount=16)

That is not even a 5% rule breaking average and there was really nothing
very rude at all.


I think there might have been a mistake made. I haven't gone through the thread, but from what you're saying here, I would, personally, allow that discussion to continue.



I also see a lot of closed threads where people have duplicated subjects or put threads in the forum where there is a stickie which used to be merged with the appropriate thread:S


If someone accidentally makes 2 threads saying the same thing with the same topic, then we can close one thread and allow the other one to continue. If someone makes a topic where the same topic is already undergoing discussion, we can close it and give a link to the active discussion. If there are two threads with some discussion about the same topic, then we can merge them (that's just logic in my opinion). Unless forum rules or management say otherwise, that's how I go about those situations anyway, and I'd say a lot of the others would do that as well?


Then when JackBuddy wanted to continue the discussion on the Habbox X's it was closed straightway - I can see no reason for this at all, myself as there was no rule breaking in it and people would have only replied if they were interested in doing so.

Link: http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=450915

I've had a look at this myself and I don't agree with the action taken. LIke I said before about this - if that thread was to lead into an argument and closed, and then another one lead into an argument (argument with rule breaking posts that is), then if ANOTHER thread is created about the same topic, then I wouldn't disagree with the moderator closing that thread and instructing the member not to create another thread about it.


The previous thread about X's had just bene closed for lots of rulebreaking etc and then you create a new one. This new thread is just going to be the sam as the last one: basically a ray of insults towards habbo experts.

It's a bit hard to say it's a definitely going to happen again. There is the possibility of members looking back at what happened in the other thread and say 'well I don't think we should argue in this thread because it might get closed' and they might not. But I do agree that if threads about the same topic are constantly closed for arguing and rule breaking and then created again, there is only one thing to expect.



I felt I should backup that moderator so I closed the new thread as all it would be is another attack on habbo experts.


I can understand why you've done this, but the moderator before has already done his stuff with the other thread and now I relate back to what I've been saying on this issue. I'm not telling everyone else not to do it, I just disagree with it. :P

[JackBuddy]

[quote=JackBuddy;4411430][quote=Favourtism;4410620]Have you not seen Jays posts? :P
The previous thread about X's had just bene closed for lots of rulebreaking etc and then you create a new one. This new thread is just going to be the sam as the last one: basically a ray of insults towards habbo experts.


I would not of closed the original thread personally but another moderator did which I cannot be held responsible for. Then another thread was created and because the other thread was closed, I felt I should backup that moderator so I closed the new thread as all it would be is another attack on habbo experts.
We weren't insulting. There is nothing wrong with debating or discussing X's, afterall... it is a relevant thread. For all I know the other thread could have been closed for any reason. The MOD who closed it did not state why.

It was an interesting thread which was stupidly closed. As said above, maybe you should have dished out more warnings. Or even better, left us to it.