Infractions for insults

[Neversoft]

You are way too strict on infractions for insults.

If I told some they're a ******* ***** and I hope they'd die, I'd get an infraction for insulting another member. Yeah, thats all good and fair.

But if I called someone an idiot or moron, it'd be the same. I'd get an infraction for insulting another member. Which I don't think is fair at all. :S

They're two totally different insults.

Hitman said there was not warning option for insults. Well, in my opinion, there should be a warning option for light insults such as idiot and moron and the current infraction option for harsh insults.

I could get permanently banned for calling someone an idiot 10 times. What the hell? The word idiot is hardly an insult. I call people idiots every day. Why are you so strict? Would you care to explain? :rolleyes:

[Aflux]

Asking staff to explain things could result in a permanent ban.

(According to the stickied thread in this forum)

[buttons]

idiot could be used as an insult cause I have used it like that, but it's usually used friendly, it's okay if you make sure they know it's a joke. & jesus says he has to infract every insult so.. :S

[jackass]

It does seem a bit harsh, but 'idiot' is hardly nice, is it? ;)

But I do agree that there should be a warning option for insults.

[Neversoft]

Asking staff to explain things could result in a permanent ban.

(According to the stickied thread in this forum)

How pathetic.

[IRBlueMoon]

I got infracted for saying 'Oh do be quite your just a :rude:'. :rolleyes:

[bo$$]

Asking staff to explain things could result in a permanent ban.

(According to the stickied thread in this forum)

lol, that's so ******* stupid.
I haven't been infracted in quite some time now but I also agree that there should be WARNINGS for stuff like "idiot" and yeah. Obviously infractions should be handed out for more serious stuff..

[Pyroka]

well they consider everything rude because this is the world of habbox big brother, where if you speak even a bit out of line then youre gagged and put into a room with padded bannage.

it sucks, eejitz.

[Immenseman]

I do agree with you to an extent. It's a very 'low level insult' and it's not really frowned upon. For example you wouldn't be shocked or surprised if your teacher called you an idiot. However, the word can hardly be used in a positive way and it doesn't have another meaning. I certainly don't agree with it being an infractionable offence and to me it would depend on each case if it was even worth a warning. If you were to say to someone 'dont be an idiot' would you get an infraction? (Sorry for not knowing :P).

[Catzsy]

It does seem a bit harsh, but 'idiot' is hardly nice, is it? ;)

But I do agree that there should be a warning option for insults.

Jake in answer to your question, yes you would get an infraction.

We used to just edit saying. 'Please be careful not to offend the feelings of others' which is about right I think for that. If that is ignored constantly then fair enough

Thing is being as harsh as this leads to more people being banned, coming back and behaving in a worse fashion and it spirals. Being on the autoban does nothing except provide sport for the mods. They still come back and because they have lost their original and good account have nothing to lose. Negativity breeds negativity.

There also used to be more relaxed rules in the spam forum for 'banter' as quite often there people wind each other up in fun - they seem to have disappeared too.

[Dentafrice]

I don't think calling someone an idiot or moron is worth an infraction, as most of mine are from that.

In America, the word ***** is about as meaningful as the word idiot..

I call people idiots daily, and I don't see Mr. Infraction man walking behind me giving me citations everytime I do it.

[buttons]

well they consider everything rude because this is the world of habbox big brother, where if you speak even a bit out of line then youre gagged and put into a room with padded bannage.

it sucks, eejitz.
it says idiot on ya profile, omg!!!!

[infatuation]

Omg neversoft u r such an idiot.
KIDDING. I completely agree with what he's saying.
When i was a moderator the rules weren't this strict at all.
I think there needs to be improvement or changes..

[The Professor]

Jake in answer to your question, yes you would get an infraction.

We used to just edit saying. 'Please be careful not to offend the feelings of others' which is about right I think for that. If that is ignored constantly then fair enough

Thing is being as harsh as this leads to more people being banned, coming back and behaving in a worse fashion and it spirals. Being on the autoban does nothing except provide sport for the mods. They still come back and because they have lost their original and good account have nothing to lose. Negativity breeds negativity.

There also used to be more relaxed rules in the spam forum for 'banter' as quite often there people wind each other up in fun - they seem to have disappeared too.

As I recall, that "banter" has, on numerous occasions, led to flame fests, bullying and the spam forum being closed altogether for a period of time. Why you'd want a seperate forum where insults are allowed I can't begin to imagine, that's just asking for trouble.

I suppose I'm on my own when I say I think its necessary. I don't understand why people are feeling the compulsion to insult people; when is it ever necessary? It only serves to create a negative atmosphere, and when people who are "just joking around" start to offend people, accidentally or otherwise, you get the aforementioned flamefests.

I have always wondered why "insulting other forum members" is only an infractionable offence as opposed to a choice of warning/infraction, because it seems the most obvious offence that can be applied to a sliding scale of severity. Aparently we're supposed to use the "inappropriate post/thread" warning for mild insults, which seems to be a workaround to our own system, which doesn't seem right and that situation can easily be rectified.

[JackBuddy]

It's also annoying when MODs clearly are incapable of noticing the difference between a joke and and WW3.

[The Professor]

It's also annoying when MODs clearly are incapable of noticing the difference between a joke and and WW3.

And its also annoying when members think we're mind readers. When it is a joke, its often an "in joke" that refers to a conversation the members have had in the past. How people expect us to get that I have no idea. On an internet forum, with no tone of voice or facial expression (save for the sparesely used emoticons) its nigh on impossible to tell a joke from a genuine insult.

[Blinger1]

you can tell. If someone posted "you idiot, lol" clearly that aren't being angry, but if they just said "you ******* idiot :Argh:" then they are..

it really isn't hard.

[brandon]

Hitman said there was not warning option for insults. Well, in my opinion, there should be a warning option for light insults such as idiot and moron and the current infraction option for harsh insults.

I said this in the Forum Moderation poll thread. I'm glad you agree. :)

[Elkaa]

It's currently in discussion about the infraction system. As has been stated above, the change a few months back was the result of several complaints, and an initiative to crack down on infractions being reversed, or issued pointlessly. To a certain extent, this has worked, but it's also caused problems in other areas, for example certain "points" only being infraction-able, and not warn-able.

Rest assured that this is in discussion, but we won't be returning to the old system (of moderator decision), but may change several more to allow warnings, as well as infractions.

[e5]

I know what you mean, one insult (first one you said) was alot more harsher than the second. In any case there isn't need for name calling, well maybe there is but rudeness is any form should stay off the forum however bad it is.

[Hitman]

If I can tell you're having a joke with another user and you post something like "lol! idiot, cya tomorrow mate :P" then I wont give an infraction as I can clearly see you're joking with the user.

It can seem harsh as "idiot" isn't a bad enough insult for an infraction really, a warning would be more suitable, that's why Elkaa is discussing it.

However, moron is worse than idiot. Sure, we use it everyday saying things like "agh why do that moron?" but the actual meaning of it isn't very nice.


A person whose intellectual development proceeds normally up
to about the eighth year of age and is then arrested so that
there is little or no further development.
It also means idiot, cretin, imbecile, a word that's filtered here, etc.

http://dictionary.die.net/moron

[GommeInc]

I like the idea of a written warning, which is good enough. If that is ignored then a system warning and then later an infraction. It sounds about right...


If I can tell you're having a joke with another user and you post something like "lol! idiot, cya tomorrow mate :P" then I wont give an infraction as I can clearly see you're joking with the user.

It can seem harsh as "idiot" isn't a bad enough insult for an infraction really, a warning would be more suitable, that's why Elkaa is discussing it.

However, moron is worse than idiot. Sure, we use it everyday saying things like "agh why do that moron?" but the actual meaning of it isn't very nice.


It also means idiot, cretin, imbecile, a word that's filtered here, etc.

http://dictionary.die.net/moron
Uh huh... If people get offended by the meaning of moron, then it's clearly a joke "/ It's like when members say certain words which mean something else and there's no point complaining because if they wanted to be offensive, they'll use proper words.

[Hitman]

I like the idea of a written warning, which is good enough. If that is ignored then a system warning and then later an infraction. It sounds about right...


Uh huh... If people get offended by the meaning of moron, then it's clearly a joke "/ It's like when members say certain words which mean something else and there's no point complaining because if they wanted to be offensive, they'll use proper words.
I was just pointing out the real meaning of moron, although we use it as "idiot". Still, it isn't a really bad insult and would only deserve a warning alongside idiot, but some users may have family or know somebody who is a moron (as in whose intellectual development reaches 8 and stops) which could hurt them, sort of like if somebody has a ******ed person in their family an somebody else calls them a ******, they'd find that insulting or not nice at all.

[Invent]

You do know 'moron' hasn't been a scientific term (or at least hasn't been used in the psychological community) for quite some time now...

[You]

Chris should be banned, he's always calling people morons and idiots!

[Supersam]

If someone is offended by the insult then surely they would report the post?

For example, if someone called me a moron but did it constantly, I would probibly report the post to a moderator.

If the person it's adressed to doesnt report it, then it's hardly insultive.

I could understand if the insult contained swearing or racial/sexist remarks, or its clear the ONLY aim of the post was to insult someone else, but not if it is clearly meaningless.

[Hitman]

If someone is offended by the insult then surely they would report the post?

For example, if someone called me a moron but did it constantly, I would probibly report the post to a moderator.

If the person it's adressed to doesnt report it, then it's hardly insultive.

I could understand if the insult contained swearing or racial/sexist remarks, or its clear the ONLY aim of the post was to insult someone else, but not if it is clearly meaningless.Some people do report posts.

This usually happens though...

User 1: What do you think of this site?
User 2: Pfft it's crap.
User 1: tell me whats crap you idiot.
User 2: no you moron go to hell.

User 1 starts insulting and user 2 should just report it, but user 2 decides to retaliate and other users end up getting involved.

[Catzsy]

It's currently in discussion about the infraction system. As has been stated above, the change a few months back was the result of several complaints, and an initiative to crack down on infractions being reversed, or issued pointlessly. To a certain extent, this has worked, but it's also caused problems in other areas, for example certain "points" only being infraction-able, and not warn-able.

Rest assured that this is in discussion, but we won't be returning to the old system (of moderator decision), but may change several more to allow warnings, as well as infractions.

Can I ask why you don't use moderator decison? Surely human judgement, flexibility and discretion means a lot more than a list of rules that cannot possibly cover all situations. If the mod's judgement is not up to it they should not be a mod. Whether it is a internet forum or not mods are at the 'coal face' so to speak and if they are doing their jobs properly do know the members within that forum quite well and can communicate with them positively to change attitudes. One size does not fit all and I think the present system of almost turning the moderation into an automatic form with little discretion is not the right way to go.

How has the change worked? All I have seen is more confrontation and more people banned. Is there no room for interaction and communication with the members anymore. If the system wasn't broke why fix it in the first place? There will always be people who are constantly banned whatever happens but why make the majority of the members suffer because of this.

All new systems should be tried, tested and evaluated anyway in my view to
see if they actually have made an improvement. I am glad to see ---MAD--- has listed polls about moderation and the forum atmosphere. This is a good initiative and shows that he values the members and is willing to see exactly what the members think about things.

[Neversoft]

I said this in the Forum Moderation poll thread. I'm glad you agree. :)

Oh, I didn't read any posts in that thread. :P Glad to see that basically everyone does agree though. :)


Chris should be banned, he's always calling people morons and idiots!

Pfft, you insult people more than I do!


It's currently in discussion about the infraction system. As has been stated above, the change a few months back was the result of several complaints, and an initiative to crack down on infractions being reversed, or issued pointlessly. To a certain extent, this has worked, but it's also caused problems in other areas, for example certain "points" only being infraction-able, and not warn-able.

Rest assured that this is in discussion, but we won't be returning to the old system (of moderator decision), but may change several more to allow warnings, as well as infractions.

When you say it's currently in discussion, I hope that doesn't mean it'll take a few months to decide.

[GommeInc]

Then those users need to be less narrow minded, moron is rarely used for it's literal meaning, it would be surprising if it was :P The majority think of it as idiot, and moron is another word to use instead of moron, so no-one really pays attention to the meanings. If people call each other morons and idiots, they're just empty insults which are just there to throw, rather than to insult literally.

****** however is a different story, because it is used formally to label someone as someone with learning diffifulties and physical or mental problems more often than moron, so when people call each other 'tards it is more insulting because it is used for it's literal meaning more than other words.

I was just pointing out the real meaning of moron, although we use it as "idiot". Still, it isn't a really bad insult and would only deserve a warning alongside idiot, but some users may have family or know somebody who is a moron (as in whose intellectual development reaches 8 and stops) which could hurt them, sort of like if somebody has a ******ed person in their family an somebody else calls them a ******, they'd find that insulting or not nice at all.

Also, (to what Elkaa said), human judgement is best for humans, if you want to force specific guidelines on moderators, it's best to use a robot, which may explain why half of moderator actions seem like they've come from a robot, rather than a human being who is in the same age range as everyone else (which really is what people want).

[Test:Tube:Baby]

I really don't understand where all these arguements are coming from.

You all know by now that you're going to be infracted for calling someone an "idiot", if you keep doing then whose fault's that? :S

[Neversoft]

I really don't understand where all these arguements are coming from.

You all know by now that you're going to be infracted for calling someone an "idiot", if you keep doing then whose fault's that? :S

Are you too blind as to not notice the amount of 'negative' users provoking others on this forum?

We're not complaining about infractions per se. We're complaining that insults such as idiot and moron hardly deserve a warning, let alone an infraction. Therefore punishment for these kinds of insults should be changed. Surely you can agree on that.

[Test:Tube:Baby]

Now I agree that an infraction for saying a word like that is a bit harsh, and that a warning or even just an edit would be more suitable.

But what gets me is that you all know full well that if you call someone an idiot you're going to get an infraction, yet you continue to do it and then when you get an infraction you all start complaining about it :S

[Neversoft]

But what gets me is that you all know full well that if you call someone an idiot you're going to get an infraction, yet you continue to do it and then when you get an infraction you all start complaining about it :S

We complain because it's unfair. ;)

[Test:Tube:Baby]

Life is unfair :P

But as the saying goes - If you can't do the time, don't do the crime ;)

Ahh Chris, remember the old days of runescape and happiness? :P

[Neversoft]

Life is unfair :P

But as the saying goes - If you can't do the time, don't do the crime ;)

Ahh Chris, remember the old days of runescape and happiness? :P

Yeah, we get an infraction for calling someone an idiot. BUT, we shouldn't. So thats why we complain.

Yeah, whatever happened to them days... oh yeah I got permed. :eusa_wall

[Test:Tube:Baby]

Yeah, whatever happened to them days... oh yeah I got permed. :eusa_wall

As I was saying, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime :P

[You]

Oh, I didn't read any posts in that thread. :P Glad to see that basically everyone does agree though. :)



Pfft, you insult people more than I do!



When you say it's currently in discussion, I hope that doesn't mean it'll take a few months to decide.
I bet our infractions say different :P:D

[Neversoft]

As I was saying, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime :P

I give up...
WHAT I'M SAYING IS THE INFRACTION SYSTEM FOR INSULTS IS WRONG. THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANY 'TIME' TO DO.


I bet our infractions say different :P:D

Oh yeah? Infractions and warnings? ;)
Not fair anyway because you got me like 5 and if jesus never joined this forum I'd be at 0/0 (0). :(

[---MAD---]

I give up...
WHAT I'M SAYING IS THE INFRACTION SYSTEM FOR INSULTS IS WRONG. THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANY 'TIME' TO DO.



Oh yeah? Infractions and warnings? ;)
Not fair anyway because you got me like 5 and if jesus never joined this forum I'd be at 0/0 (0). :(
I understand where your coming from, saying its harsh to recieve an infraction for calling someone an idiot.

What do you suggest we do if everyone calls each other idiots and morons constantly. Is that the sort of atmosphere you would want to have?

[Test:Tube:Baby]

I understand where your coming from, saying its harsh to recieve an infraction for calling someone an idiot.

What do you suggest we do if everyone calls each other idiots and morons constantly. Is that the sort of atmosphere you would want to have?
Shut up, idiot.

Hmmm he has a point, it doesn't look very nice does it :P
(that was a joke btw)

[Neversoft]

I understand where your coming from, saying its harsh to recieve an infraction for calling someone an idiot.

What do you suggest we do if everyone calls each other idiots and morons constantly. Is that the sort of atmosphere you would want to have?

Well I wouldn't mind that kind of atmosphere. :) What ruins the atmosphere for me is all of your strict rules. So I'd be happy if it got changed.

I suggest you change the system so light insults recieved warnings and harsh ones recieve infractions. As I have already stated... It's still a punishment and you can still get cautioned from warnings, so it's not like anyone will be getting away with insulting people if it was changed to what I said.
I detect a lot of sarcasm in your post. It would be nice if you gave a good suggestion a chance for a change. Especially one from me.

[---MAD---]

Well I wouldn't mind that kind of atmosphere. :) What ruins the atmosphere for me is all of your strict rules. So I'd be happy if it got changed.

I suggest you change the system so light insults recieved warnings and harsh ones recieve infractions. As I have already stated... It's still a punishment and you can still get cautioned from warnings, so it's not like anyone will be getting away with insulting people if it was changed to what I said.
People would still complain though. It seems people want to be able to say stuff like that and get away with it.

I think that sort of atmosphere would make many people people afraid to post. Some people appear to be afraid of getting flamed as it is and that's without insults like idiot/moron being involved.

[Neversoft]

People would still complain though. It seems people want to be able to say stuff like that and get away with it.

I think that sort of atmosphere would make many people people afraid to post. Some people appear to be afraid of getting flamed as it is and that's without insults like idiot/moron being involved.

How do you know people would complain? :S You haven't even given my suggestion a chance and I highly doubt you're psychic. :S

Having warnings for light insults is always how it should have been. As I already said, it's not like people would be getting away with it. I don't understand how you can say no to this. Everyone else has agreed with me. Are you trying to rule out arguments altogether? Are you trying to create a Habbox utopia by trying to get rid of all insults or something? Because that is impossible.

[GommeInc]

People would still complain though. It seems people want to be able to say stuff like that and get away with it.

I think that sort of atmosphere would make many people people afraid to post. Some people appear to be afraid of getting flamed as it is and that's without insults like idiot/moron being involved.
Who's to say people will immediately start flaming each other? In most instances of the word idiot, they are not directed at someone to be offensive, it's used because it is used in every day speech. If Neversoft said he trapped his finger in the car door, I could call him an idiot. It's not offensive, it's the norm for such instances... If someone is arguing with another member of the forum and they are an idiot, they will be called an idiot if they are arguing and not making any sense (like someone I know who seems to love spamming the feedback forum :P) so idiot is the right term if they keep going on and on about how they think they're right.

Why is it the right term? Because people will call others like that in real life situations. Real life is the key term here, which I believe many moderators and other staff refer to when words require unfiltering, like the word 'piss'. When piss was unfiltered you got people moaning that if you said it in real life etc. you will get told off, which in most cases you won't. Of course there is a limit to that, but with common situations such as the word idiot and how it is used, it's impossible to stop people using it for situations described throughout the thread. If arguments break-out in the threads, get moderators to personally PM the users and tell them to calm down, maybe even just talk to the one being called idiot for not accpeting he's wrong, which I believe is the problem in the design forum where "noobs" challenge the knowledge of hardcore design experts. At least, when I was a moderator on here I PM'd users if there were problems, it solved things quite quickly and got you involved and made them involve you and make you feel valued and in return made them feel valued.

[nvrspk4]

I brought this issue up a week ago (beat ya Chris :P) and we are certainly looking into it. We do want to bring back the warning for insulting other members, and bring judgement a little back into the picture. We're evaluating how we can do all this at the moment, but we have recognized a need to change the way in which we deal with these kind of things ;)


How do you know people would complain? :S You haven't even given my suggestion a chance and I highly doubt you're psychic. :S

On that front I have to disagree because you yourself said that anime/manga posters were afraid of being flamed and thus didn't post as much. Or was that just a farce :P

[AgnesIO]

I say calling someone and idiot and get a infraction is way to harsh :)

You can't blame the MOD'S OR SMOD'S as they to not make the rules.

However my teacher has called me an idiot before, yet in year 8 I got a lv 7 in English.

[JackBuddy]

Well here's what you should do. Make everything how it was two years ago- sorted!

[Catzsy]

I brought this issue up a week ago (beat ya Chris :P) and we are certainly looking into it. We do want to bring back the warning for insulting other members, and bring judgement a little back into the picture. We're evaluating how we can do all this at the moment, but we have recognized a need to change the way in which we deal with these kind of things ;)


Glad the GM's and AGM's are looking at all this. It sounds very positive and I am sure will help enormously to bring back the community spirit. :)

[---MAD---]

Glad the GM's and AGM's are looking at all this. It sounds very positive and I am sure will help enormously to bring back the community spirit. :)
I will be posting an announcement within the next few days regarding the changes that are coming within the next few weeks :).

[today]

I will be posting an announcement within the next few days regarding the changes that are coming within the next few weeks :).
Hopefully little abuse such as "shut up moron" "go away idiot" will result in a post edit only, as its really not what i call abuse =l

[Supersam]

Hmmm...

On this forum does every rule break result in a warning/infraction?

Do they not give PM warnings to minor rule breakers?

[today]

Hmmm...

On this forum does every rule break result in a warning/infraction?

Do they not give PM warnings to minor rule breakers?
You get pm'ed when your infracted/warned.

[GommeInc]

You get pm'ed when your infracted/warned.
But they're only done when an infraction or warning occurs. A proper PM from a moderator which they wrote would be nice, at least you can have a down to earth discussion with a person and not a system PM :P

[today]

But they're only done when an infraction or warning occurs. A proper PM from a moderator which they wrote would be nice, at least you can have a down to earth discussion with a person and not a system PM :P
But we'll get the "dont have time" excuse thrown at us!