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GommeInc
25-06-2009, 12:19 AM
Ok well debate is over for me, its just my word against yours :)

Ask God to reveal himself to you and he will do so:)

Peace out.
I've heard people say that in church, as far as I am aware it doesn't solve anything - people just end up believing in a God because they excuse their own line of rational thinking. If something amazing happens in their life, like a child is born, has problems and is healed, they thank God rather than the baby's natural, existent, physical body and it's own healing powers. Or if you make a masterpiece, some people thank God when he has absolutely nothing to do with it and it all comes down to the painter.

I've also heard and read the Bible, it's quite a weird book... But that goes without saying - basically being a Christian makes you less likely to enter the kingdom of heaven, "strangers" (commonly seen as homosexuals, athiest, non-Christians etc etc) are more welcome. The Bible is OK, but it's main downfall are the people reading it. Like reading Harry Potter and making Voldemort seem like a lovely man that did amazing spells when the only information available shows a murderer.

StickMan
25-06-2009, 04:54 AM
I dunno... if theres a god.. then he likes to make my life a real ****

--liger--
25-06-2009, 06:23 PM
Yes if Course he does and I have enough info to back it up... Lets start with a great man who was before Jesus's time. But he knew Jesus.

His name is none the less Nostradamus.

So if you want to achieve the thing in life known as FAITH! For all you who are scared to click the video link. I challenge you to click this link: http://nostradamus2012.com/about.php

Most likely you wont....but click it. Everyone should.

Jordy
25-06-2009, 06:35 PM
I don't believe God exists and I doubt I ever will. However I think religion has excellent concepts and brings out the best in a lot of people, it's claimed it causes most wars which is wrong but I believe if people didn't have faith then the world would be a worse place.

Although I could never dedicate myself to a religion, I would sometimes like to believe in something or have 'Faith', but as an agnostic/atheist I cannot.

Mentor
25-06-2009, 06:45 PM
Yes if Course he does and I have enough info to back it up... Lets start with a great man who was before Jesus's time. But he knew Jesus.

His name is none the less Nostradamus.
...
Michel de Nostredame (14 December or 21 December 1503 – 2 July 1566)

The above is called a fact, unfortunately it trumps your "faith" or "belief" due to it being correct, unlike your assertion that Nostredame was someone who was before Jesus's supposed time.

I know the pesky facts may seem annoying to you, but to the rest of us, who live in a land known as reality there quite useful :)

As is the fact Nostredame's work has supposedly predicted countless apocalypses. So far, as i hope would be obvious, none have actually occurred.


So if you want to achieve the thing in life known as FAITH! For all you who are scared to click the video link. I challenge you to click this link: http://nostradamus2012.com/about.php

Most likely you wont....but click it. Everyone should.
I clicked it, so what? its gives a little background info (less than wikipeida would have provided)
Nostredame is just one of millions of profits, who like the rest of them suffers from his predictions carrying an accuracy rating similar to that of guess work (go figure)

That said, what on earth was your point as i sure missed it? What does this have to do with the existence or non existence of a god?


I don't believe God exists and I doubt I ever will. However I think religion has excellent concepts and brings out the best in a lot of people, it's claimed it causes most wars which is wrong but I believe if people didn't have faith then the world would be a worse place.

Although I could never dedicate myself to a religion, I would sometimes like to believe in something or have 'Faith', but as an agnostic/atheist I cannot.
Resent study s have links country's with a less religious population to having much lower crime rates, and engaging in far less conflict in generally. Equally less religious belief and higher standards of living both correlate, as does the happiness of the population.

So i'd question the word being worse, if people were less religious. I'd say the current evidence actually points to quite the opposite :)

GommeInc
25-06-2009, 08:32 PM
I don't believe God exists and I doubt I ever will. However I think religion has excellent concepts and brings out the best in a lot of people, it's claimed it causes most wars which is wrong but I believe if people didn't have faith then the world would be a worse place.

Although I could never dedicate myself to a religion, I would sometimes like to believe in something or have 'Faith', but as an agnostic/atheist I cannot.
I so wish I could rep you :( I agree entirely with you, it does have some good qualities which have shaped some nice people in my community. I work in a church and when I've had some sad events in my life, it's reassuring to hear that they "praying about you" - though there are some extremists out there, Christian, Jew, Muslim etc etc, the nice, decent folk who are religious are... well, decent.

Churches and Christians appear to be doing more good than bad in some communities, they bring people together and host some events you wouldn't usually come across - art, photography, coffee mornings, luncheon clubs and flower shows - they're also good places for the elderly to keep themselves busy and active, and they do quite alot for charity indirectly (in some areas, quite alot of the income from the collection goes towards local and national charities for instance). Heck, charity shops get quite alot of their products from churches that have taken on too much stuff, I know for a fact that three churches near me take any extra stuff donated to them to Age Concern and British Heart Foundation!

Without some churches, some communities wouldn't have a place for the elderly and the young to meet up, make friends and keep themselves busy. In a place near me called Great Totham, the churches in that area motivate the elderly and do alot of hardwork in the area for young and old alike, holding exhibitions that show off young artist(s) work, stopping points for bike rides which happen annually and flower arranging that the young and elderly can get involved with (of course, that is seasonal stuff and more of those things happen, weekly lunch and dinner clubs, art clubs, libraries etc and monthly coffee mornings happen for most of the year). In my local village, the churches are raising the money towards a Community Centre because the failure of the area Council can't afford it, not to mention Colchester church communities look after the poor, the elderly and I think they're focusing on doing more for the young.

Quite alot of the North Essex churches the ones keeping it clean I believe... In Tiptree they get groups together to clear up local wildlife areas and run the Parish Councils (Maldon, Great Totham etc) which keep the areas in check with help from Borough Councils (when and if they bother).

In short, I don't really see any problem - religion itself has it's ups and downs, but the bigger picture shows small communities affecting the larger community that surrounds them. Churches keep the elderly motivated (there are alot of lonely, elderly men and women in my area that rely on the church) and look after young children as creches and nurseries in small focus groups on behalf of mums and dads. My church even has a small group called "Happy Bunnies" which is where mums bring in their children and meet other mums and children and have a good time.

There are of course council driven groups, but they only exist in big towns away from what could be considered local communities. So the nearest support groups I think are 9 miles away. Why waste that money and time to go 9 miles away when the closest, small, local one is only a mile and a half from where I am? Not that I'm a child and go to something called Happy Bunnies :P

RastaLulz
30-06-2009, 07:51 PM
Religions were put in place to establish good morals in people, and also to explain the unknown. But now that we know the unknown, that once was religion, we can scientifically prove how we came into existence via evolution, and man has found a way to milk money out of another mans pocket by making them believe in something, and to think that a man magically appeared and created the human race is just silly. Plus the fact that he watches over you, and six billion over people is also insane. Lastly, I'd like to show how easily the human mind can become manipulated, using Scientology as my prime example. Scientology basically states that we're derived from an alien species, and yet people also believe this fairy tale, some man made up over a bar bet.. All in all, religions are myths, but with good morals, and intentions behind them.

Bun
01-07-2009, 12:30 PM
religion is a load of bull.







in my opinion of course. :eusa_ange

//Tom
01-07-2009, 04:10 PM
If there was a god why would so much crap happen?

Roboevil
30-07-2009, 11:53 AM
The existence of God makes no sense to me. I don't see what makes him so special, why doesn't anyone believe in Thor, Zeus, Isis, Quetzacoatl? What makes the Christian God, or Allah so much different?

I think we can all agree that our planet, and our lives are a tiny speck in the Universe. What is god trying to prove by creating us and judging us for heaven? Who is he trying to prove it to--if he's an omnipotent unique being, did he create us for himself? If he did then, for what cause?

What is he trying to hide from us? Why has he set up the world to make it seem so impossible for us to prove that he exists?

I don't like how it seems as though people are making up their own meanings to the Bible. The Bible says god created the universe in 6 days; obviously with science that now sounds ludicrous, so people try to interpret it in their own way by saying it's the 6 time periods in history.
The bible also says to burn witches and stone adulterers, if this is god's word, then why don't Christians do it anymore?
If you're going to be a Christian, take the Bible literally, that was its original intention.

Believing in god is an archaic way of finding the truth of the universe, there is no logic and reason for it. With all the modern day evidence, believing in god should be a last resort.

I cannot find a good argument that proves the existence of god. Religion offers nothing but fictional fairy tales.

Fehm
07-08-2009, 02:22 PM
That video tells me no.
Its impossible that one lonely person would come up with such an amazingly intricate global economy, evolution, everything by themselves. It's all science. No such thing.

jackass
07-08-2009, 02:37 PM
If there was a god why would so much crap happen?

Ever watch Bruce Almighty? Free will. :)

Feep
07-08-2009, 02:52 PM
God doesnt exist, it's just a way to make people feel better about dying.
Gutted for thoes people that have followed the bible and then have died to find out these no heaven. Waste of time

Mentor
07-08-2009, 02:58 PM
Ever watch Bruce Almighty? Free will. :)

Freewill for all intensive purpose's is a myth o.0

RandomManJay
07-08-2009, 04:55 PM
The existence of God makes no sense to me. I don't see what makes him so special, why doesn't anyone believe in Thor, Zeus, Isis, Quetzacoatl? What makes the Christian God, or Allah so much different?

I think we can all agree that our planet, and our lives are a tiny speck in the Universe. What is god trying to prove by creating us and judging us for heaven? Who is he trying to prove it to--if he's an omnipotent unique being, did he create us for himself? If he did then, for what cause?

What is he trying to hide from us? Why has he set up the world to make it seem so impossible for us to prove that he exists?

I don't like how it seems as though people are making up their own meanings to the Bible. The Bible says god created the universe in 6 days; obviously with science that now sounds ludicrous, so people try to interpret it in their own way by saying it's the 6 time periods in history.
The bible also says to burn witches and stone adulterers, if this is god's word, then why don't Christians do it anymore?
If you're going to be a Christian, take the Bible literally, that was its original intention.

Believing in god is an archaic way of finding the truth of the universe, there is no logic and reason for it. With all the modern day evidence, believing in god should be a last resort.

I cannot find a good argument that proves the existence of god. Religion offers nothing but fictional fairy tales.

Historial mythical figures died out once the cizivisation died out or was forced into alternative beliefs due to invasion and take over (e.g. Egyptian beliefs), personally I value these beliefs more and would prefer them to the ones that are mainstream now. Faith and beliefs were created to make logical sense about life, the unknown of death and the natural forces of the universe. Modern day religion is simply a reluctance to abandon these beliefs due to the unknown people have been brought up to believe awaits them if they abandon them. Logic and enlightenment are not valued in mainstream religion (particularly Christianity) anymore, only tradition and blind belief exist due to traditional upbringing and lack of knowledge of a world without such beliefs, this is also due to the religion itself rejecting anything which is not traditional to their faith.

Lost_Addict
13-08-2009, 09:23 PM
I believe there is a god but i believe the big bang happend, what scientists d onot take int oaccoutn was ok chemicals could of made the reaction but what made the chemicals?

also im all up on peoples opinion but i think people that say pfffft no or stupid jokes is just because there insecure abotu what other people think about them.
if yes / no just provide a logical answer rather than making a childish joke...

Black_Apalachi
13-08-2009, 10:28 PM
The human eye? God must exist because of how intricate the human eye is? :S **** me.

My parents are/were fairly religious, coming from Ireland and therefore I was brought up to believe in God and I went to church all my life until just before I went to uni really. The answer is no, I do not believe in God. Throwing something at me so stupid as to basically say, 'this is so unlikely therefore God is the only possible cause of it' will if anything, drive me further away.

For starters, how can you take any book seriously that has had countless authors contributing to it and has been translated and manipulated even more times over thousands of years? I think it would take a very naive person to do that.

I've spent the last couple of years of my life basically wrecking my head about whether I've effectively wasted my life up to now, and whether my dad wasted the whole of his life and whether my mum is still wasting hers. It feels like such a stupid thing to just believe, especially only because you are simply told to and yet I can't accept that my dad would have spent his whole life doing just that; wasting his life believing simply because he was told to by his parents and so on. Apart from that, he was an extremely intelligent person. He was the person I'd go to with any question or problem (obviously, I suppose), but he always had the answers. Religion was the only thing I think he got wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I really want heaven to be a real thing. I can't imagine why you'd prefer to just die, rather than go to a heaven (assuming it is as described; a perfect place with no unhappiness). Yet at the moment I don't believe it is real.

Even if I were going to be a theist, I don't see why Christianity should be "the one". If I had to make a list, it would probably rank pretty low anyway.

While my whole perspective of life has changed, I think I'll always have that spec of hope that it is in fact all real. After all, if I accept everything that is, is possible based on probability, then I must also accept that no matter how small, there is a probability that God does exist.

Aces
14-08-2009, 01:59 AM
religion is a debate that can never be won. Nobody can prove beyond a doubt that god does or doesn't exist.

The end.

Mentor
14-08-2009, 09:49 AM
I believe there is a god but i believe the big bang happend, what scientists d onot take int oaccoutn was ok chemicals could of made the reaction but what made the chemicals?

also im all up on peoples opinion but i think people that say pfffft no or stupid jokes is just because there insecure abotu what other people think about them.
if yes / no just provide a logical answer rather than making a childish joke...

Religion feeds of ignorance, the reason creationists don't believe in evolution isn't based on any logical reasoning, but instead or purely having no idea what evolution even is, never lone how it works. Christianity protects its interest by spreading outright lies about scientific theories in order to make them sound less credible.

You unfortunately are getting them to it seems. Before matter/the universe or even time exists, there were chemicals just magically sitting there which then exploded to create the universe? if thats what you've been told of the big bang no wonder is sounds absurd. It is.
The Big bang theory has no claims of any chemicals sitting there, or a reaction of these chemicals that caused an explosion. The big bang isn't even directly related to the beginning of the universe itself, its an event thought to have happens a few nano seconds after the universes advent when all the matter in the universe was packed in to an almost infinity small and dense mass. The specifics are disagreed on, but a common understanding is the explosion that sent are universe speeding out to form what we now know of it, was a reaction of matter and anti-matter, both which were crammed together. When matter/antimatter collides, enormous amounts of energy was released, splitting the atom has nothing on these sorts of quantities. Fortunately the amounts of matter / anti matter were not the same, once everything had canceled out, one was left over, formed the universe as we know it, and was dubbed matter by us.

As to the original creation of the universe there are a great number of different theories about what exactly happened. Noting that time having started with the universe itself, being just another dimension in it, the idea of a before the universe doesn't really make sense. M theory proposes the event may have been caused by another dimension overlapping with our own, but this is pure hypothesis as far as I'm aware in its current state. Are scientific understanding as it is, isnt able to answer such questions yet for sure. Because we accept this, rather than make up an answer (god) or give up, we simply progress with research and science in general, increasing are overall understanding and slowly moving us towards a point we really will be able to say with some assurance exactly what happened and why :)
For now, the why is best left to philosophy :)

religion is a debate that can never be won. Nobody can prove beyond a doubt that god does or doesn't exist.

The end.
An abstract god no. The Christan, Muslim, Jewish and pretty much any other concept of god you want to mention on the other hand can be. Specific qualities of these gods are mentioned and on a purely logical basis fail miserably. The simple paradox "Could god make a rock so heavy he could not lift it" illustrates this. Being all powerful (omnipotent) is not logically sound, so any god with such a trait (all of the aforementioned) could not logically exist.

RandomManJay
14-08-2009, 12:31 PM
Religion feeds of ignorance, the reason creationists don't believe in evolution isn't based on any logical reasoning, but instead or purely having no idea what evolution even is, never lone how it works. Christianity protects its interest by spreading outright lies about scientific theories in order to make them sound less credible.

You unfortunately are getting them to it seems. Before matter/the universe or even time exists, there were chemicals just magically sitting there which then exploded to create the universe? if thats what you've been told of the big bang no wonder is sounds absurd. It is.
The Big bang theory has no claims of any chemicals sitting there, or a reaction of these chemicals that caused an explosion. The big bang isn't even directly related to the beginning of the universe itself, its an event thought to have happens a few nano seconds after the universes advent when all the matter in the universe was packed in to an almost infinity small and dense mass. The specifics are disagreed on, but a common understanding is the explosion that sent are universe speeding out to form what we now know of it, was a reaction of matter and anti-matter, both which were crammed together. When matter/antimatter collides, enormous amounts of energy was released, splitting the atom has nothing on these sorts of quantities. Fortunately the amounts of matter / anti matter were not the same, once everything had canceled out, one was left over, formed the universe as we know it, and was dubbed matter by us.

As to the original creation of the universe there are a great number of different theories about what exactly happened. Noting that time having started with the universe itself, being just another dimension in it, the idea of a before the universe doesn't really make sense. M theory proposes the event may have been caused by another dimension overlapping with our own, but this is pure hypothesis as far as I'm aware in its current state. Are scientific understanding as it is, isnt able to answer such questions yet for sure. Because we accept this, rather than make up an answer (god) or give up, we simply progress with research and science in general, increasing are overall understanding and slowly moving us towards a point we really will be able to say with some assurance exactly what happened and why :)
For now, the why is best left to philosophy :)

Very nicely put :P, it also raises a point of why religious people deny this theory. Religious followers, particularly in the mainstream religions cannot agree that matter and energy etc. has always existed, which is their main argument, and their main downfall. They can argue that matter must begin at some point and therefore it must have been created, but then again, they make the exact same claim about their god, he/she/they have always existed and created the universe, so why is it that god has always existed but not matter. So basically both fail to be justified from the very beginning, but what is proven and shown afterwards is what justifies whether or not god can exist and why belief in science is growing while religious beliefs are gradually failing.

hmv
14-08-2009, 12:32 PM
GOD does not exist, GODS exist. I believe in Greek Mythology but I believe in the big bang theory.

Inspiration
14-08-2009, 02:59 PM
GOD does not exist, GODS exist. I believe in Greek Mythology but I believe in the big bang theory.

I think the big bang theory is Rubbish and believe there is only one God!
And as the world develops It's starting to come clear that God does exist and people just don't want to believe.

Mentor
14-08-2009, 03:50 PM
I think the big bang theory is Rubbish and believe there is only one God!
And as the world develops It's starting to come clear that God does exist and people just don't want to believe.
People are becoming less likly to believe in god as science explains the real reasoning behind many of the things previously just attributed to god. Religion is slowly on its way out seeing as it becomes more and more evident what is specified in the religious texts is untrue and the god concepts are both logically unsound and unnecessary "/

So quite the opposite of your own claim, All the evidence in the world points to the answers science provides (after all that conclusion is based on all the evidence), nothing though even hints at there being truth the religious texts and the attached gods.)


GOD does not exist, GODS exist. I believe in Greek Mythology but I believe in the big bang theory.
People been up mount Olympus, aint no gods to be seen o.0

Inspiration
14-08-2009, 03:58 PM
I understand were you are comming from as in "who can prove if god exists" but rather than thinking once I die thats the end of me shouldn't we atleast hope that God does exist and so does afterlife?
I make myself believe he does exist just for that very reason.

hmv
14-08-2009, 04:00 PM
People are becoming less likly to believe in god as science explains the real reasoning behind many of the things previously just attributed to god. Religion is slowly on its way out seeing as it becomes more and more evident what is specified in the religious texts is untrue and the god concepts are both logically unsound and unnecessary "/

So quite the opposite of your own claim, All the evidence in the world points to the answers science provides (after all that conclusion is based on all the evidence), nothing though even hints at there being truth the religious texts and the attached gods.)


People been up mount Olympus, aint no gods to be seen o.0

Okay, I don't agree with everything in Greek mythology. Hey, who knows? I believe that their place moves, just as the Earth does. It follows west around the world. But I also believe that they are not ON Mount Olympus but floating above it, but we cannot see them. You can only see them if you are needed.
But these gods didn't create Earth, they control different things in the world. Such as Zeus the sky and Poseidon water.
Overall: Their place changes but they didn't create Earth.

Also, I believe that they have two forms. 1) A human form and 2) A ''God'' form. They look completely different in their human form than their God form. You can only see them if they want you to see them or if they are in their human form. God form; they decide to let you see them.

Well, hey. That is my theory.
If God(s) created the world there would have to be more than one. God couldn't do that all on his own. And if God exists, how was he created huh?
Sometimes I wonder how the universe was created itself.

The Don
14-08-2009, 04:33 PM
I only read the first page of this dissucsion so sorry if someone has said something like this, but i dont beleive in god, or fate. Beleiving in fate means you dont have any free will or the choice to do what ever you want. I beleive the reason many people beleive in god is because they like to have faith in someone who they beleive is protecting them and like the idea of heaven. Which in reality is probaly non existent. There is far to much proof to show that god is not real and yet so many people beleive in him, it amazes me. Im not saying it is wrong for someone to beleive in god, after all i may be incorrect but this is my opinion.

PaulMacC
14-08-2009, 06:33 PM
I only read the first page of this dissucsion so sorry if someone has said something like this, but i dont beleive in god, or fate. Beleiving in fate means you dont have any free will or the choice to do what ever you want. I beleive the reason many people beleive in god is because they like to have faith in someone who they beleive is protecting them and like the idea of heaven. Which in reality is probaly non existent. There is far to much proof to show that god is not real and yet so many people beleive in him, it amazes me. Im not saying it is wrong for someone to beleive in god, after all i may be incorrect but this is my opinion.
There is also some questions even science cannot explain. I have a lot of free will and Im a Christian who attends chuch once a week :)

RandomManJay
14-08-2009, 07:38 PM
There is also some questions even science cannot explain. I have a lot of free will and Im a Christian who attends chuch once a week :)

The thing about science is although it might not be explainable 'as yet' (I'm agnostic :P) is that science can try, something religion doesnt do, it simply states that it is the work of god or divine intervention (if you don't mind me being blunt and straight to the point). Some people are fine with this, leaving their lives in the hands or an omnipitent non-physical being, whereas some aren't comfortable with this and need actual validity and would rather seek to understand it rather than accept it as an enevitability that only the onnipitent non-physical being can do.

Black_Apalachi
14-08-2009, 09:30 PM
Even though I have stated I do not believe in God, it still annoys me when other "atheists" simply use 'then who created God?' as a way to put forward their point of view. Obviously part of the point of believing in God is that he has always been and always will be. I also don't see why Christians don't simply counteract the science argument by simply saying, 'well God created science, just like He created everything else'.

I'm just saying, those seem like pretty obvious points when looked at from an impartial point of view :P.

Lost_Addict
14-08-2009, 09:32 PM
Religion feeds of ignorance, the reason creationists don't believe in evolution isn't based on any logical reasoning, but instead or purely having no idea what evolution even is, never lone how it works. Christianity protects its interest by spreading outright lies about scientific theories in order to make them sound less credible.

You unfortunately are getting them to it seems. Before matter/the universe or even time exists, there were chemicals just magically sitting there which then exploded to create the universe? if thats what you've been told of the big bang no wonder is sounds absurd. It is.
The Big bang theory has no claims of any chemicals sitting there, or a reaction of these chemicals that caused an explosion. The big bang isn't even directly related to the beginning of the universe itself, its an event thought to have happens a few nano seconds after the universes advent when all the matter in the universe was packed in to an almost infinity small and dense mass. The specifics are disagreed on, but a common understanding is the explosion that sent are universe speeding out to form what we now know of it, was a reaction of matter and anti-matter, both which were crammed together. When matter/antimatter collides, enormous amounts of energy was released, splitting the atom has nothing on these sorts of quantities. Fortunately the amounts of matter / anti matter were not the same, once everything had canceled out, one was left over, formed the universe as we know it, and was dubbed matter by us.

As to the original creation of the universe there are a great number of different theories about what exactly happened. Noting that time having started with the universe itself, being just another dimension in it, the idea of a before the universe doesn't really make sense. M theory proposes the event may have been caused by another dimension overlapping with our own, but this is pure hypothesis as far as I'm aware in its current state. Are scientific understanding as it is, isnt able to answer such questions yet for sure. Because we accept this, rather than make up an answer (god) or give up, we simply progress with research and science in general, increasing are overall understanding and slowly moving us towards a point we really will be able to say with some assurance exactly what happened and why :)
For now, the why is best left to philosophy :)

An abstract god no. The Christan, Muslim, Jewish and pretty much any other concept of god you want to mention on the other hand can be. Specific qualities of these gods are mentioned and on a purely logical basis fail miserably. The simple paradox "Could god make a rock so heavy he could not lift it" illustrates this. Being all powerful (omnipotent) is not logically sound, so any god with such a trait (all of the aforementioned) could not logically exist.

Very simply How?

how would you know if chemicals were there before time / the universe, there is no proof, it has the same theorys and beliefs science if you did not know is all based on therorys we don't have enough techno to prove any of this is true so just like christianity / jewdaism and so on science is a belief... its just how you put science as a perspective.

RandomManJay
14-08-2009, 10:00 PM
Very simply How?

how would you know if chemicals were there before time / the universe, there is no proof, it has the same theorys and beliefs science if you did not know is all based on therorys we don't have enough techno to prove any of this is true so just like christianity / jewdaism and so on science is a belief... its just how you put science as a perspective.

You're right it is just another form of belief, but what sets is aside is that it attempts to explain phenomenon rather than stating it was done by a higher power. If everyone did believe that god existed, science's perspective would be different, from did matter already exist? or what made it come into existance? into how did god make it? how did he bring it into existance? Religion doesn't hold these answers, its just gods will and he created it, end of that, which in many peoples opinion doesn't seem right considering no one has every seen god who is alive today with any proof, latter to that there is no proof that god even exists other than belief and the religions defining what is a miracle and divine. The Bible was written over 100 years after Jesus' death (you can find this out through scientific analysis and dated records from that era), yet many people believe it to be the word of god without question as to whether the gospals even met Jesus' or someone who knew him, and there is no mention that the gospals were given this knowledge from god. Many people don't even know that many of the stories and personal accounts within the bible were selected when the new testement was created, so many don't even know that the bible they have isn't the real and complete one (considering the bible has been translated many times over, different perspectives have tainted it though the ages and the main body of power within that religion has dicated what will be in the bible and what will be excluded from it).

So it is easy to disprove god through scientific evidence and the low validity of god, the bible and the gospals. Also knowing that the religion itself can say whatever it pleases and claim it to be divine and gods choosing does makes you question why the religion is doing this when there is no mention that god has decided it himself.

Neversoft
14-08-2009, 11:19 PM
My mind can't comprehend the existance of an almighty being, unfortunately. That video is also absolutely idiotic. Just because the human eye far exceeds the complexity of anything else on this planet how does that beg the question "does God exist?" :S

Reminds me of something 8Freak8 said in a thread I made about evolution and God a few years ago.

"Also another argument is if a hurricane ripped through a junkyard, how likely is it that a machine as complex as a Boeing 747 could be put together? The universe being many times more complex is therefore even more unlikely to come together by random processes.

The point is though, that if you had a junkyard that was abundant with everything that is needed to make a Boeing 747, and if all of these things had specific charges to attract each other (like molecules), then there is at least a very very very very remote possibility of this happening - as long as you have one constant hurricane in a junkyard for billions of years."

Just like the universe, the human eye does not need a creator to be so complex. Things happen by pure coincidence. At least that's what I think.

RandomManJay
15-08-2009, 01:04 AM
My mind can't comprehend the existance of an almighty being, unfortunately. That video is also absolutely idiotic. Just because the human eye far exceeds the complexity of anything else on this planet how does that beg the question "does God exist?" :S

Reminds me of something 8Freak8 said in a thread I made about evolution and God a few years ago.

"Also another argument is if a hurricane ripped through a junkyard, how likely is it that a machine as complex as a Boeing 747 could be put together? The universe being many times more complex is therefore even more unlikely to come together by random processes.

The point is though, that if you had a junkyard that was abundant with everything that is needed to make a Boeing 747, and if all of these things had specific charges to attract each other (like molecules), then there is at least a very very very very remote possibility of this happening - as long as you have one constant hurricane in a junkyard for billions of years."

Just like the universe, the human eye does not need a creator to be so complex. Things happen by pure coincidence. At least that's what I think.

Like saying that it isn't impossible, but highly inprobable, it doesn't change the fact that it can occur by chance. Like the example of an infinite amount of monkeys typing on an infinite amount of typewriters could eventually create the exact and complete works of Shakesheare.

Jordan:A
15-08-2009, 01:18 AM
I dont think he does, im more of the evolution theory

7799car
15-08-2009, 10:12 AM
I don't because:


No proof about God.
Adam & Eve = Everyone is related in some way.
Mary = You can't have a baby still being a virgin.
God would save people who have done nothing wrong.
Just little things I tend to think about :P Fair enough if you do but I haven't be bought up thinking of God much :$

I do believe there are points that help prove God :P

Molly.22
15-08-2009, 10:15 AM
I don't because:


No proof about God.
Adam & Eve = Everyone is related in some way.
Mary = You can't have a baby still being a virgin.
God would save people who have done nothing wrong.
Just little things I tend to think about :P Fair enough if you do but I haven't be bought up thinking of God much :$

I do believe there are points that help prove God :P

I do agree with this, I have always thought about Adam and Eve and how if this true we are like all related. :P

Japan
15-08-2009, 11:25 AM
If you believe in god, it means he exists to you.
I can't remember who it was, but someone said "if god did exist, it wouldn't be necessary to invent him"

RandomManJay
15-08-2009, 11:38 AM
I do agree with this, I have always thought about Adam and Eve and how if this true we are like all related. :P

It isn't, at least to certain religious groups, they believe that Adam & Eve is an example of what took part during Genesis when Man was created, only naive and blind believers really believe this story to be true.

kizza149
15-08-2009, 02:12 PM
weres the evadance that god doesn't exist?

GommeInc
15-08-2009, 02:29 PM
weres the evadance that god doesn't exist?
Where's the evidence that Joe Bloggs isn't eating a muffin in Surrey?

I tend to take the sceptical approach by using what Christians use against them. If the Bible was written by man, an imperfect creation of God, then how do we know that the Bible is from God? It could be a creation by the Devil, there is that possibility - God has little to no control over the Devil, but the Devil has just about as much power as God, even though the existence of a Devil is limited to possibly false translations of the Bible from what is defined as evil, or the evil one.

That said, I go to church every Sunday to do their presentations on a laptop and projector, the people are incredibly nice and I find the church useful for the community. It's just a shame the church can't really exist without the idea of a deity and a holy book :P Considering it's the faith which makes alot of church volunteers (one that look after the elderly, walk around busy towns, villagers and cities dealking with drunks, and hosting events) do all these things for free, becuase it will earn them brownie points.

RandomManJay
15-08-2009, 02:34 PM
weres the evadance that god doesn't exist?

Plain an simply, the fact that he hasn't made a recent appearance in 'burning bush form' or 'cloud pillar form' or even as a regular human being who can perform extraordinary things is proof enough that he doesnt. Requiring proof for his existance has and will always be required for some people to believe in him, otherwise, him not being around for over 2000 years and the religion itself pulling all the strings, coupled with the low vailidity of the bible and other religious texts due to carbon dating or actually dated records will forever be a testement to people who simply don't want to believe in someone they can't see, hear or feel.

Dan2nd
15-08-2009, 05:09 PM
I don't because:



Adam & Eve = Everyone is related in some way.





Couldn't you say the same thing about Evolution though?

If all things living evolved from the same place surely everything living on Earth is in some way related to one another?

Sammeth.
15-08-2009, 06:13 PM
I dont think there is a God, I'm a man of science n ting.

NIKKEE
15-08-2009, 09:25 PM
You see I went to church when I was younger, and even now still go. But I can't bring myself to believe in God, there is so much of the bible that makes no sense, can't be proved at all and is completely ludicrous. Of course it was a way for people to feel better about things, or maybe for people to control things. I don't know, all I know is I feel happy when I do go to church, even though I don't really believe anything the minister says. I am so much more spiritual.

jackass
15-08-2009, 09:49 PM
Plain an simply, the fact that he hasn't made a recent appearance in 'burning bush form' or 'cloud pillar form' or even as a regular human being who can perform extraordinary things is proof enough that he doesnt. Requiring proof for his existance has and will always be required for some people to believe in him, otherwise, him not being around for over 2000 years and the religion itself pulling all the strings, coupled with the low vailidity of the bible and other religious texts due to carbon dating or actually dated records will forever be a testement to people who simply don't want to believe in someone they can't see, hear or feel.

How is him not 'making an appearance' proof that he doesn't exist? :S

RandomManJay
15-08-2009, 10:09 PM
How is him not 'making an appearance' proof that he doesn't exist? :S

It isn't that he wont exist if he doesn't make an appearance, but making someone believe that something exists is far easier if they can see, hear and feel them. Some people aren't willing to wait and see if it could happen when it hasn't happened in over 2000 years, so people stop believing he exists if he doesn't make an appearance because its accepting that a higher power is a work that cannot be seen, heard or understood, something many humans refuse to accept because something can always be understood and learned, otherwise we would still be in the dark ages drilling into peoples heads to cure Schizophrenia and whatnot. We develop and grow, we learn from experience and better ourselves to understand the universe around us, if something can't be seen, heard or felt, whos to say that it exists. Its like saying if a tree falls in the forest with no one around, does it make a sound, logically yes, but who can prove it does, no one can be there through any means otherwise it changes the criteria for the example. The same applies to god, if no one can see, hear or feel him, does he exist?

I know I'm long winded (lol), my friend told me before that god does exist, but he's been retired for over 2000 years xD!

Neversoft
15-08-2009, 10:48 PM
The same applies to god, if no one can see, hear or feel him, does he exist?

No one can see, hear or feel gravity, but it exists. In some philosophies God is described as 'limitless and unknowable' so naturally there isn't a problem with not being able to see, hear or feel 'him'. There are also still fish in the ocean that we have not seen, heard, or felt yet we know they exist because of signs they leave behind. The same with dinosaurs. No one has ever seen, heard or felt a real one yet we know they existed because of their fossils. A better argument would be 'if God exists why is there no sign that 'he' was ever here?'. Although the 'limtless and unknowable' excuse could be used there as well.

Sammeth.
16-08-2009, 12:41 AM
Stephen Fry has already answered this question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3NRT748hKA#t=6m15s

Rixion
16-08-2009, 07:07 AM
I believe in the Greek & Norse Mythology because it's much more interesting, what did God do, not much..?

And I do believe it was evolution/science that started the human race.

RandomManJay
16-08-2009, 09:50 AM
No one can see, hear or feel gravity, but it exists. In some philosophies God is described as 'limitless and unknowable' so naturally there isn't a problem with not being able to see, hear or feel 'him'. There are also still fish in the ocean that we have not seen, heard, or felt yet we know they exist because of signs they leave behind. The same with dinosaurs. No one has ever seen, heard or felt a real one yet we know they existed because of their fossils. A better argument would be 'if God exists why is there no sign that 'he' was ever here?'. Although the 'limtless and unknowable' excuse could be used there as well.

You know gravity exists because you can feel its force keeping us on the planet like when you jump etc. The example of gravity is a good one, but you can feel it effects and you can see the effects, you drop a ball, it doesn't stay in place, it falls, hence the physical and visable effect of gravity. We know that there a certain fish in the ocean although we haven't seen them due to their ancestry and fossils, hence, they did exist because we can see their remains. I did explain this in another post relating to god, that he hasn't made an appearance in a while, what proof is there that he existed in the past, a bible and historical texts written at least a hundred years after Jesus died and over a thousand years after god created the universe. So I do agree with what you said, I was explaining something to someone in my last post (at least I think, I was drunk at the time), so it might not be literal as much as an example of what I was trying to put across.

hmv
16-08-2009, 10:26 AM
I believe in the Greek & Norse Mythology because it's much more interesting, what did God do, not much..?

And I do believe it was evolution/science that started the human race.

Good, I am not the only one.

About something someone said - Adam&Eve. I believe that we are all related through the first two humans on Earth (:

RandomManJay
16-08-2009, 10:28 AM
Good, I am not the only one.

About something someone said - Adam&Eve. I believe that we are all related through the first two humans on Earth (:

Lol :P. I prefer Egyptian Mythology myself, don't mind the Greek Mythology either.

Neversoft
16-08-2009, 10:48 AM
You know gravity exists because you can feel its force keeping us on the planet like when you jump etc. The example of gravity is a good one, but you can feel it effects and you can see the effects, you drop a ball, it doesn't stay in place, it falls, hence the physical and visable effect of gravity. We know that there a certain fish in the ocean although we haven't seen them due to their ancestry and fossils, hence, they did exist because we can see their remains. I did explain this in another post relating to god, that he hasn't made an appearance in a while, what proof is there that he existed in the past, a bible and historical texts written at least a hundred years after Jesus died and over a thousand years after god created the universe. So I do agree with what you said, I was explaining something to someone in my last post (at least I think, I was drunk at the time), so it might not be literal as much as an example of what I was trying to put across.

People say they know God exists because they believe he is currently preforming miracles. Ok, how about I use molecules as an example? Before science allowed us to see them, we could not see, hear or feel them. Does that mean molecules didn't exist until humans saw them? That's obviously an absurd acquisition. That's why I said 'if God exists why is there no sign that 'he' was ever here?' was a better argument. Although 'he' is supposedly 'limitless and unknowable' a lot of people believe that God created the wonders of the world. There is of course still many unexplained mysteries out there that could also pass as being 'works of God'. Some people claim that God revealed 'himself' to them as well. So the proof that 'he' might exist or might have existed is there, but of course it's unexplainable. Know one knows for sure who created the wonders, and miracles are pure coincidence in my opinion, and the other could easily be lying about God's appearance. But anyway, just because we can't see, hear or feel something and the fact that this something has left no proof of existance still doesn't prove it does not exist.

RandomManJay
16-08-2009, 11:13 AM
People say they know God exists because they believe he is currently preforming miracles. Ok, how about I use molecules as an example? Before science allowed us to see them, we could not see, hear or feel them. Does that mean molecules didn't exist until humans saw them? That's obviously an absurd acquisition. That's why I said 'if God exists why is there no sign that 'he' was ever here?' was a better argument. Although 'he' is supposedly 'limitless and unknowable' a lot of people believe that God created the wonders of the world. There is of course still many unexplained mysteries out there that could also pass as being 'works of God'. Some people claim that God revealed 'himself' to them as well. So the proof that 'he' might exist or might have existed is there, but of course it's unexplainable. Know one knows for sure who created the wonders, and miracles are pure coincidence in my opinion, and the other could easily be lying about God's appearance. But anyway, just because we can't see, hear or feel something and the fact that this something has left no proof of existance still doesn't prove it does not exist.

I do agree with everything you've said, I was explaining to someone what I meant from an earlier post, using an example like popular consensus and why people choose not to believe in god and what they would define as proof, it wasn't my actual opinion on the matter :P. Personally I don't think that the person god does exist, but I do believe that there are higher powers and higher forms of life in the universe. Whether they're influencing our life or aided in our evolution I don't know, but considering there are many stages of life on our planet, it not reasonable to assume we are the height of evolution on our planet or even the universe.

Dentafrice
17-08-2009, 03:47 PM
People say they know God exists because they believe he is currently preforming miracles. Ok, how about I use molecules as an example? Before science allowed us to see them, we could not see, hear or feel them. Does that mean molecules didn't exist until humans saw them? That's obviously an absurd acquisition. That's why I said 'if God exists why is there no sign that 'he' was ever here?' was a better argument. Although 'he' is supposedly 'limitless and unknowable' a lot of people believe that God created the wonders of the world. There is of course still many unexplained mysteries out there that could also pass as being 'works of God'. Some people claim that God revealed 'himself' to them as well. So the proof that 'he' might exist or might have existed is there, but of course it's unexplainable. Know one knows for sure who created the wonders, and miracles are pure coincidence in my opinion, and the other could easily be lying about God's appearance. But anyway, just because we can't see, hear or feel something and the fact that this something has left no proof of existance still doesn't prove it does not exist.
It's called faith :P

------

Personally, I believe in God. I believe in intelligent design, not evolution.

I don't think we came from monkeys. I don't believe we came from fish, eggs, pens, paper, or a turd.

People say there is no evidence that God exists, but check out this article.. don't just scan over it.. actually read it.. it speaks some truth..

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

Lost
17-08-2009, 04:04 PM
I don't care, i'm not interested, that sound's very ignorant but it's the simple truth. Why should I spend my life worrying if there is some God out there that does or does not exist? It slows you down if you ask me. I don't see what that video is doing either, it doesn't prove anything imo. Some people like the idea of there being a God up there protecting us and watching over us, others see it differently. Many people take it to the extreme and think that because other people believe in God then they should somehow pay the price physically :S. I think there are people who believe in God because they like the feeling if they fall they have someone to catch them if you know what I mean. However I cannot stand people who are glad if their children don't believe in god, and are anti-catholic, it's like, well if you don't believe in God, then fine, but you don't have to be glad if your children don't believe in god either - it's their choice :S. Someone I know is Anti-Catholic and everyone think's he's a really bad person because of it, but who's to say that being Anti-Catholic is a bad thing? I mean especially how that Church have some hidden dark secrets of their own. I totally agree with "we can't just live for about 80 or 90 years and then die and it's as simple as that, there has to be something out there, something else" I don't believe in faith because I don't like the idea that i'm not in control of my life.

So my overall answer is: no, I don't believe in God.

Mentor
17-08-2009, 07:54 PM
It's called faith :P
There are people who faithfully believe the sofa's talking to them and that a small irish lepricorn wants them to burn things. Faith means nothing.


Personally, I believe in God. I believe in intelligent design, not evolution.
Belife in god is fine. Belief in creationism, even with some fail-science thrown in on the other hand is hard to justify. ID was disproved in less than 3 minutes when a real scientist simply proved the claims its based on were outright lies. Both the flangla and the eye exist to this day in various stages of there evolution, something ID claims is impossible.
Evolution has a great deal of proof and can be seen happening minute to minute. People often confuse the facts and the theory of evolution. Evolution takes place, this is a fact. Exactly how the process works, thats the theory.

Evolution does happen, its been proven to happen, you can go see it happen yourself. The super bug, swine and bird blue are all examples of this.


I don't think we came from monkeys. I don't believe we came from fish, eggs, pens, paper, or a turd.
Fish is the only one of those things thats actually suggested we once had an ancestor in, even that would have little resemblance to the species we find today.



People say there is no evidence that God exists, but check out this article.. don't just scan over it.. actually read it.. it speaks some truth..

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
There is no evidence, just some poor reasoning, fail science and outright lies on a few subject. I think i may be slightly dummer from the experience of even reading the first few paragraphs...

Dont link arguments, make them yourself or dont make em at all,is my stance. Else feel free to browser some scientific journals on your own accord :)

There is no more proof of god than there is Barney the invisible purple dinosaur (although barny doesn't contradict himself as much and is much less evil), nothing suggests a god, nore ever has. Its pure fantasy. Feel free to come back with some evidence, but i doubt you'll find any.

I'm an Atheist for a reason :)

RandomManJay
17-08-2009, 11:17 PM
It's called faith :P

------

Personally, I believe in God. I believe in intelligent design, not evolution.

I don't think we came from monkeys. I don't believe we came from fish, eggs, pens, paper, or a turd.

People say there is no evidence that God exists, but check out this article.. don't just scan over it.. actually read it.. it speaks some truth..

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

The first section is completely based on data which was disproven ages ago, for example: there are many forms of life which would thrive on Mars in comparison to Earth, but are here nonetheless, just because this planet is capable of supporting our form of life doesn't mean that it was created from intelligent design, otherwise why are there other forms of life which would be perfectly suited to life on other planets but are here instead. Also the Moon is not in perfect position, it began much closer of earth and is gradually moving farther and farther away, if god did indeed place it, why is he choosing to put it farther away causing mass damage to the earth and which will eventually kill everyone. And one last thing, the earth is not in a perfect position to the Sun, its in a 'safe' place is all, the word being safe, and it wasn't always in this little zone either, even Mars is on the outer rim and will eventually enter it in the next millenia or so, and Earth will be leaving it heading into an inferno similar to Venus and Mercury. If god wants us to stay on this planet, why do this, why force us into moving, why not make a sun which doesn't die out and kill us.

Also the DNA code is an example of evolution, after every evolution, more data is added to our DNA, previous behaviours, characteristics and whatnot, why would we need this data considering it isn't required and in many cases causes more problems than solve them, they are a by-product of our evolution. Some of the oldest lifeforms on the planet which have evolved many times over have even more complex DNA than we do, why, there would be no point considering they are lower forms of life in comparison to us and their previous data holds no impact or chance of improvement on our part. Our DNA began quite simple and no impact until other chemicals and other genes began to inter mix and triggered evolution.

The rest can be countermanded in much the same way as they've presented their arguement. Simply put, it's there take on scientific knowledge, nothing more, nothing less, trying to justify that science itself if a product of god, we just aren't accepting it, and well that may be true, but not having someone say that they created it does pose the question of why he doesn't show that he did it, instead of telling a civilization which existed 2000 years ago which had no understanding of such concepts. It is possible that we were created by intelligent design, but untill thats proven to be fact, the universe and our existance will be known to us as a random and quite rare phenomenon (considering we haven't found other living lifeforms on other planets as yet).

Special
17-08-2009, 11:26 PM
I do not belive in god simply because there is more evidance that backs up evolution than there does being a god.

However i belive everything happens for a reason. And that life is a chain reaction



http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.htmlthats a biast report, thats blatently writen by a beliver of god.

Dentafrice
17-08-2009, 11:34 PM
Well I'm not going to respond to all that, because it's your opinion.. and you can say all you want about it.. and I'll respect it.

But I believe what I believe, whether these scientists "prove it wrong" over and over.

I'm a Christian, and I try to live a good life.. and if what I believe turns out to be "wrong", then I'll die happy living a good life.. and will have lost nothing.

Mentor
17-08-2009, 11:59 PM
But I believe what I believe, whether these scientists "prove it wrong" over and over.
I'm always worried by statements like these as they pretty much sum up the mentality of those willing to plunge planes in to buildings.
You can believe what you like about the unknown, but believing something contrary to known fact is somewhat worrying. Believing your table can fly does not mean it can. Facts win out in the realms of reality.


I'm a Christian, and I try to live a good life.. and if what I believe turns out to be "wrong", then I'll die happy living a good life.. and will have lost nothing.
Well you will have lost some time, time you could have helped someone wasted in preying for them, time you could have been learning wasted sitting in church listening to fiction and experiences you deny yourself based on a groundless morality?
So to me that is a loss, but its your life to use at the end of the day, just keep in mine. If we are right, this is the only one you get, so dont waste it :)

Dentafrice
18-08-2009, 12:05 AM
I'm always worried by statements like these as they pretty much sum up the mentality of those willing to plunge planes in to buildings.
You can believe what you like about the unknown, but believing something contrary to known fact is somewhat worrying. Believing your table can fly does not mean it can. Facts win out in the realms of reality.


Well you will have lost some time, time you could have helped someone wasted in preying for them, time you could have been learning wasted sitting in church listening to fiction and experiences you deny yourself based on a groundless morality?
So to me that is a loss, but its your life to use at the end of the day, just keep in mine. If we are right, this is the only one you get, so dont waste it :)
How is time wasted if you enjoy it? If I enjoy going to church, how is that wasted time? If I enjoy my responsibilities at church (sound, video, etc), that's not wasted to me.

I'm not going to be flying planes into buildings because I believe in god, and am a Christian?

You can believe whatever you want, just like I can.. so saying my mentality is the same as someone plunging a plane into a building, sums up a lot of the world who believes in some sort of religion.

RandomManJay
18-08-2009, 12:55 AM
How is time wasted if you enjoy it? If I enjoy going to church, how is that wasted time? If I enjoy my responsibilities at church (sound, video, etc), that's not wasted to me.

I'm not going to be flying planes into buildings because I believe in god, and am a Christian?

You can believe whatever you want, just like I can.. so saying my mentality is the same as someone plunging a plane into a building, sums up a lot of the world who believes in some sort of religion.

Just because you're a Christian doesn't change the fact that it is possible for extremists to attempt such acts, even if they are Christian, Christianity is responsible for some of the worst massacres in history afterall. I don't think he was suggesting you did, just the terminology you used suggests you could go to such extremes under the right pressure, anyone could really. Also to certain people, enjoyment doesn't equal time well spent (for some reason :rolleyes:), so because they believe there is no god, they don't see how preying to god is time well spent, so its a conflict in opinion over wasting time preying to a god which could exist and enjoying it.

In terms of what god would want, you're perfectly fine doing it considering he gave us free will :P.

Dentafrice
18-08-2009, 01:05 AM
Just because you're a Christian doesn't change the fact that it is possible for extremists to attempt such acts, even if they are Christian, Christianity is responsible for some of the worst massacres in history afterall. I don't think he was suggesting you did, just the terminology you used suggests you could go to such extremes under the right pressure, anyone could really. Also to certain people, enjoyment doesn't equal time well spent (for some reason :rolleyes:), so because they believe there is no god, they don't see how preying to god is time well spent, so its a conflict in opinion over wasting time preying to a god which could exist and enjoying it.

In terms of what god would want, you're perfectly fine doing it considering he gave us free will :P.
Correct.

Time well spent is just opinion anyway, you might enjoy say.. roller blading.. and enjoy it, and think it's time well spent.. and I might think it was stupid, and you could be doing something better..

but to you, it's something you enjoy, etc..

So it's all opinion tbh.

GommeInc
18-08-2009, 01:06 AM
Anyone can perform an act of terrorism, any religion or belief, which includes athiests (which is a belief) :S Heck, alot of murderers are probably athiests! The argument seems to be side tracking to who can kill who :P Extreme Christianity is quite a disturbing sight, although the only extreme Christians I can think of is the Westboro Baptist Church, which arguably isn't a proper Christian denomination (they go against their own beliefs so badly that it'll be wrong to call them a church :P).

Mentor
18-08-2009, 06:17 PM
Anyone can perform an act of terrorism, any religion or belief, which includes athiests (which is a belief) :S Heck, alot of murderers are probably athiests! The argument seems to be side tracking to who can kill who :P Extreme Christianity is quite a disturbing sight, although the only extreme Christians I can think of is the Westboro Baptist Church, which arguably isn't a proper Christian denomination (they go against their own beliefs so badly that it'll be wrong to call them a church :P).

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion. - Steven Weinberg

Theres alot of truth in those words. Blind faith is an incredibly dangerous thing.

Dentafrice
18-08-2009, 06:39 PM
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion. - Steven Weinberg

Theres alot of truth in those words. Blind faith is an incredibly dangerous thing.
Religion will always be here in some shape or form, and there is nothing you; or anyone can do about it.. but argue.

Mentor
18-08-2009, 09:56 PM
Religion will always be here in some shape or form, and there is nothing you; or anyone can do about it.. but argue.

Religion is in sharp decline within every first world country bar the US, if things keep going as they are chances are all traces of religion could be gone within the next few generations o.o

RandomManJay
18-08-2009, 10:26 PM
Religion is in sharp decline within every first world country bar the US, if things keep going as they are chances are all traces of religion could be gone within the next few generations o.o

The problem is that people will always wonder what will happen after we die and people will always fear it, there will always be people who want the answers and people will always want to have the answers and feel complelled to give them, so as long as this need exists, 'divine' belief and religion will always come back. Hopefully it wont get to the point that it used to be, but to the point that it wont be as influencial or controvercial.

Mentor
18-08-2009, 11:19 PM
The problem is that people will always wonder what will happen after we die and people will always fear it, there will always be people who want the answers and people will always want to have the answers and feel complelled to give them, so as long as this need exists, 'divine' belief and religion will always come back. Hopefully it wont get to the point that it used to be, but to the point that it wont be as influencial or controvercial.
Theres no need to wonder, the problem has nothing to do with not knowing the answer's, its purely with people not liking the answers they get.
There is no heaven, reincarnation or any form of life after death, when you die your body ceases to function. Thats all there is to it. You ether rot in the floor or get incinerated. If your a donor they may remove any useful organs too :)

Religion can no longer function as a answer to the unanswerable, since the unanswerable is fictitious. Religion just serves as an outlet for people in denial to avoid accepting the bits of the world they dont like. We have no freewill, no purpose, no destiny, were pure fluke - to think otherwize is contrary to the evidence we have. :)

ItsDave
18-08-2009, 11:28 PM
I'd like to see some evidence. Sure its a massive conisedance that we managed to be life forms, and live, and creatures live all because of the big bang and thats why I think there must be other life forms other than us. But if there is evidence which can be presented to me that supports God, I might consider it, but I'd doubt it, highly. So really... no. He does not exist.

RandomManJay
18-08-2009, 11:51 PM
Theres no need to wonder, the problem has nothing to do with not knowing the answer's, its purely with people not liking the answers they get.
There is no heaven, reincarnation or any form of life after death, when you die your body ceases to function. Thats all there is to it. You ether rot in the floor or get incinerated. If your a donor they may remove any useful organs too :)

Religion can no longer function as a answer to the unanswerable, since the unanswerable is fictitious. Religion just serves as an outlet for people in denial to avoid accepting the bits of the world they dont like. We have no freewill, no purpose, no destiny, were pure fluke - to think otherwize is contrary to the evidence we have. :)

Despite it being unable to function as an answer, it doesn't change the fact that 2-3 billion people in the world which believe in it, and although it may be gradually deminishing in some countries and some cultures, it doesn't change the fact that in some its rapidily on the increase. Considering the evidence is there, why do people still believe in it rather than listening to the facts, people don't see the answers in science and facts because many only explain the phenomenon, not it's causes and not the reasons why, these are the answers people want, and these people aren't ready to accept the answers presented to them.

I still believe that as long as this need is required, religion will always exist, as long as there are people who choose to deny the validity of science containing the answers, religion will come back time and time again. And whos to say that science could become a religion, considering the main theory for the creation of the universe is one singular defining event, you could argue that this can be related to god, a singular defining entity creating the universe rather than the singular defining event.

Mentor
19-08-2009, 12:10 AM
Despite it being unable to function as an answer, it doesn't change the fact that 2-3 billion people in the world which believe in it, and although it may be gradually deminishing in some countries and some cultures, it doesn't change the fact that in some its rapidily on the increase.
Even with your numbers, that means there is 35% less followers of religion than there were but a 100 years ago, give it another few 100 the numbers will continue there downward spiral.
As science answers questions and removes the shadows of ignorance which religion thrives on, religion and super natural belief in general will decline.
Within a 1000 years i expect, assuming the earth stays on its current course, i expect the religious population would fall way below a single %. Quite possibly much sooner :)


Considering the evidence is there, why do people still believe in it rather than listening to the facts, people don't see the answers in science and facts because many only explain the phenomenon, not it's causes and not the reasons why, these are the answers people want, and these people aren't ready to accept the answers presented to them.
The facts with cause and effect quite happy cover the why's too. Much of the older generations were brainwashed for lack of a better word in to the religious convictions they hold today, the younger generations much less so. Considering the majority of the religious population in the uk for example is over 60, it makes sence to think as the older generations die of and the new ones take there place, the % of people following religious beliefs will fall dramatically.


I still believe that as long as this need is required, religion will always exist, as long as there are people who choose to deny the validity of science containing the answers, religion will come back time and time again.
The need is not innate, its the result of years of indoctrination and brainwashing designed to keep the weak weak and the powerful powerful. The obviousness that religion is wrong is more evident to each generation, meaning brainwashing is far less effective than in the past. You can deniy science left right and center. The fact near everything in the world is based on the principles found though tends to conflict with the notion.


And whos to say that science could become a religion, considering the main theory for the creation of the universe is one singular defining event, you could argue that this can be related to god, a singular defining entity creating the universe rather than the singular defining event.
Science cannot become a religion, such a concept requires total ignorance of both the terms involved and the princibles they are based on? The claim is absurd??
Additionally, no where is this single event claimed, the big bang sent the universe flying out, it did not put it there. Just like evolution is the proccess by which life adapts, it has nothing to do with how it first formed.

Science is just a best guess based on the known facts, as we learn more, the theories are refined and improved. The more we know, the more accurate are theorys and understanding of whats involved :) the "science" changes constantly :)

RandomManJay
19-08-2009, 12:43 AM
Even with your numbers, that means there is 35% less followers of religion than there were but a 100 years ago, give it another few 100 the numbers will continue there downward spiral.
As science answers questions and removes the shadows of ignorance which religion thrives on, religion and super natural belief in general will decline.
Within a 1000 years i expect, assuming the earth stays on its current course, i expect the religious population would fall way below a single %. Quite possibly much sooner :)


The facts with cause and effect quite happy cover the why's too. Much of the older generations were brainwashed for lack of a better word in to the religious convictions they hold today, the younger generations much less so. Considering the majority of the religious population in the uk for example is over 60, it makes sence to think as the older generations die of and the new ones take there place, the % of people following religious beliefs will fall dramatically.


The need is not innate, its the result of years of indoctrination and brainwashing designed to keep the weak weak and the powerful powerful. The obviousness that religion is wrong is more evident to each generation, meaning brainwashing is far less effective than in the past. You can deniy science left right and center. The fact near everything in the world is based on the principles found though tends to conflict with the notion.


Science cannot become a religion, such a concept requires total ignorance of both the terms involved and the princibles they are based on? The claim is absurd??
Additionally, no where is this single event claimed, the big bang sent the universe flying out, it did not put it there. Just like evolution is the proccess by which life adapts, it has nothing to do with how it first formed.

Science is just a best guess based on the known facts, as we learn more, the theories are refined and improved. The more we know, the more accurate are theorys and understanding of whats involved :) the "science" changes constantly :)

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything :P. Just I believe that religion will always remain as long as people feel they need it, I didn't say it was innate, just simply a need to understanding the unknown, an unknown they can easily comprehend like an unknown force doing everything for us. And the science being a religion is a philosophical idea that its a belief of the universe, and could stand as a religion despite its methods and logic, and like many philosophical ideas, it isn't really followed. Personally I'd hate it to be a religion, it would mean I've put myself behind a religion for all these years instead of following cold hard fact.

I do hope it does finally end, but seeing as how much the religions are fighting back and even some creating new resolves and the teaching methods aren't changing within these religions, it could take a hell of a long time for religion to end, and with no avail in the end if the big questions still can't be answered.

Dentafrice
19-08-2009, 01:15 AM
Unanswerable is not fictitious, what created the big bang? What started it? Because if the big bang created everything, what created the big bang if there were no elements, no molecules, no chemicals, no heat, no cool, no anything until the big bang.

Dan2nd
19-08-2009, 07:27 PM
But aren't a lot of the atheist beleves (such as the big bang, evolution etc) still only theories meaning they haven't been fully proven?

Until these theories have been fully proven as fact aren't a lot of people just blindly agreeing with it alot like religion is being critised for?

I mean since these theories haven't been fully proven much like religion aren't athiests effectivly preeching these ideas to me?

Don't get me wrong I'm not totally disregarding science I just was looking for opinions

Mentor
19-08-2009, 08:51 PM
Unanswerable is not fictitious, what created the big bang? What started it? Because if the big bang created everything, what created the big bang if there were no elements, no molecules, no chemicals, no heat, no cool, no anything until the big bang.
Matter and antimatter at a near infinite density created/caused the big bang, the big bang has nothing to do with the creation of matter. Depending on who you side with there are a number of explanations, collision with another dimension is one option :)

The cosmological augment fails, as by making the assertion the universe needs a first cause, you must then accept so does your god. Meaning no progress is made, and Occam's rasor is against you o.o

But aren't a lot of the atheist beleves (such as the big bang, evolution etc) still only theories meaning they haven't been fully proven?
Theories are just are best estimation based on all facts known to date, they are tested, disproven, revised and slowly head towards being right.
Scienfic theory is very differnt to the common useage of the word. Also, evolution is fact, we know it happens. Same with big bang, we also know it did. The theories are are explanations of what caused these events and exactly how they function.
We may not know for sure every detail of how evolution works for example, but despite that its obvious to see it does and is happening.


Until these theories have been fully proven as fact aren't a lot of people just blindly agreeing with it alot like religion is being critised for?
No, we follow the evidence, as the evidence we have increases, we just ajust are understanding to be more accurate.
This is very differnt from pulling a conclusion out your arse and just deniying everything out there that disagrees with it


I mean since these theories haven't been fully proven much like religion aren't athiests effectivly preeching these ideas to me?

Don't get me wrong I'm not totally disregarding science I just was looking for opinions
See above :)

RandomManJay
19-08-2009, 08:59 PM
But aren't a lot of the atheist beleves (such as the big bang, evolution etc) still only theories meaning they haven't been fully proven?

Until these theories have been fully proven as fact aren't a lot of people just blindly agreeing with it alot like religion is being critised for?

I mean since these theories haven't been fully proven much like religion aren't athiests effectivly preeching these ideas to me?

Don't get me wrong I'm not totally disregarding science I just was looking for opinions

What makes it different is because there is actual proof which backs up the theories, it may not actually justify that they are 100% viable or accurate, but people (not only atheists) believe in them because of the proof in comparison to simple blind belief. Considering religion doesn't offer actual proof, or an incredibly small amount of proof, people would much rather go for the explanation with more proof than one without any (or an incredibly small amount).

Dentafrice
19-08-2009, 09:12 PM
Matter and antimatter at a near infinite density created/caused the big bang, the big bang has nothing to do with the creation of matter. Depending on who you side with there are a number of explanations, collision with another dimension is one option :)

The cosmological augment fails, as by making the assertion the universe needs a first cause, you must then accept so does your god. Meaning no progress is made, and Occam's rasor is against you o.o

Theories are just are best estimation based on all facts known to date, they are tested, disproven, revised and slowly head towards being right.
Scienfic theory is very differnt to the common useage of the word. Also, evolution is fact, we know it happens. Same with big bang, we also know it did. The theories are are explanations of what caused these events and exactly how they function.
We may not know for sure every detail of how evolution works for example, but despite that its obvious to see it does and is happening.


No, we follow the evidence, as the evidence we have increases, we just ajust are understanding to be more accurate.
This is very differnt from pulling a conclusion out your arse and just deniying everything out there that disagrees with it


See above :)
So what is the supporting evidence of the big bang?

Mentor
19-08-2009, 10:23 PM
So what is the supporting evidence of the big bang?
Background radiation, the redshift effect, fact the entire universe is still flying apart from a single point?

RandomManJay
19-08-2009, 10:35 PM
Background radiation, the redshift effect, fact the entire universe is still flying apart from a single point?

The first two are the proof that the universe is flying apart :P. Normally I like to think of it as expanding, kinda puts a less pessamistic view of the universe (lol).

Mentor
19-08-2009, 10:53 PM
The first two are the proof that the universe is flying apart :P. Normally I like to think of it as expanding, kinda puts a less pessamistic view of the universe (lol).
Background radiation is residual radiation left over from the big kaboom. Redshift is indeed just proving the universe is flying apart or expanding as you put it :) Although explosions do tend to cause such effects and are by far the most likely cause. That combined with the left over radiation leads to the big bang hypothesis. If something comes up and turns that on its head, all that will happen is a new hypothisis will be created to take this in to account as well :)

Dentafrice
19-08-2009, 10:56 PM
Background radiation, the redshift effect, fact the entire universe is still flying apart from a single point?
Then explain Population II stars?

Mentor
19-08-2009, 11:09 PM
Then explain Population II stars?
God did it is hardly an explanation, but the type III star hypothesis is one option, feel free to read up on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallicity

Dentafrice
20-08-2009, 01:15 AM
God did it is hardly an explanation, but the type III star hypothesis is one option, feel free to read up on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallicity
I never once said that god was the reason.

Population III stars:


are a hypothetical population of extremely massive and hot stars with virtually no surface metals

They can't explain Population II, so they go and make a hypothesis of Population III stars to explain Population II stars, yet we have found Population II stars, not Population III stars, so when we find a Population III star, I'll believe it..

They "think" that some stars could be Population III stars, but of course that is skeptical. That's like driving while you're looking through a straw.

As well, as the fact..

That the farthest object that is seen in the sky.. by the Hubble and the Keck Telescopes, is 13 billion light-years away.. and it is assumed to have been created when the universe was just 750 million years old.

It would take at least that long (if not longer) for the material form the theorized Big Bang to coalesce into stars, and for those stars to form a rotating galaxy.

But the problem! We are seeing that object 13 billion light-years away.. not as it is today.. and where it is today.. but as it was and where it was, 13 billion years ago, 13 billion light-years away from earth.

Basically, for this galaxy to lie 13 billion light-years away from Earth, only 750 million years after the Big bang, it would have had to travel 13 billion light years in just 750 million years' time.

That requires the galaxy in question, to travel more then 17 times faster than the speed of light (the speed of light, being a speed limit which according to the Big Bang Supporters, was in effect from the moment the universe was 3 seconds old).

For 3 seconds, the universe was "ruleless", with no laws of motion, no laws of gravity, no laws of anything.. nor any set limits, such as the speed of light or sound.

DrLacero
20-08-2009, 07:11 AM
Background radiation is residual radiation left over from the big kaboom.

There was no "kaboom", the term "Big bang" was originally a term used by those in support of the steady state universe, it was means to criticise the idea, what the "big bang" is is simply the cosmic expansion from a singularity. The term just stuck and it's implied false meaning did too.

</nitpicking :P>

SuperCheese96
20-08-2009, 07:52 AM
I think beliving in God or not has alot to do with your upbringing. Your gonna belive what your parents belive. Because my parents (despite being christian) let me chose my own path I do not believe in God. If your parents take you to church and christen you 2 days after you were born your more likely to be christian. I just think it's a bit coincidental how all the miricles happened about 2000 years ago and none happen now.

RandomManJay
20-08-2009, 09:11 AM
Population III stars:



They can't explain Population II, so they go and make a hypothesis of Population III stars to explain Population II stars, yet we have found Population II stars, not Population III stars, so when we find a Population III star, I'll believe it..

They "think" that some stars could be Population III stars, but of course that is skeptical. That's like driving while you're looking through a straw.

As well, as the fact..

That the farthest object that is seen in the sky.. by the Hubble and the Keck Telescopes, is 13 billion light-years away.. and it is assumed to have been created when the universe was just 750 million years old.

It would take at least that long (if not longer) for the material form the theorized Big Bang to coalesce into stars, and for those stars to form a rotating galaxy.

But the problem! We are seeing that object 13 billion light-years away.. not as it is today.. and where it is today.. but as it was and where it was, 13 billion years ago, 13 billion light-years away from earth.

Basically, for this galaxy to lie 13 billion light-years away from Earth, only 750 million years after the Big bang, it would have had to travel 13 billion light years in just 750 million years' time.

That requires the galaxy in question, to travel more then 17 times faster than the speed of light (the speed of light, being a speed limit which according to the Big Bang Supporters, was in effect from the moment the universe was 3 seconds old).

For 3 seconds, the universe was "ruleless", with no laws of motion, no laws of gravity, no laws of anything.. nor any set limits, such as the speed of light or sound.

His attack on god was basically a way to justify what it he was about to say, rather to piss you off then actually say that there is no explanation.

Population II starts are the second generation stars, born from the left overs of Population III stars, either from after they have exhausted their own components and whats lefts after they turn supernova and whatever, or from what was left after they began to merge into operational stars.

Population II stars cannot theortically exist for the period of time that they seem to be, essentially because we know from actually recorded proof that stars cannot exist for that long, not from actually watching the entire lifespan of a star, but from observing the different stages, radiation and reaction, also viewing a star turn supernova helps too. Although all of this actually happened some time ago considering the time it takes for light to travel, it gives us the observation we need to make these theories.

Population III stars are considered low-metal stars, the theory behind it is that Population II stars can be observed releasing elements which have undergone nuclear fission and their original elements all point to the heavier metals which would have only existed at that time, the belief behind this is that newer elements are being created by these stars, meaning that they were originally made from the heavier metals otherwise there would be no nuclear fission taking place. Therefore the Population III stars were made from the very few heavy metal elements that existed. The belief behind Population III stars is that the universe does not fit without them, thats why we look for proof and thats why we found it from the background radiation and red-shift, every star which exists and has existed excretes/d radiation and light, the radiation can show us what the star was made of and what it made and the red-shift can tell us the stage it is at or whether or not it has died. This points to the belief that Population III stars have existed, Population II stars don't need this proof because they already exist, we just have the theories to why they exist.

Why would the galaxy have to travel, considering we are 13 billion light years away from it, this planet was formed 13 billion light years away from that galaxy, it wouldn't have to travel to get that far away, because we've always been that far away. The belief that it wouldn't take 750 million years to form a galaxy is confusing because as you've said 3 seconds after the big bang was a jumble of the known laws of the universe, but considering the immense energy and pressure, its beleived that stars and galaxies were popping up at an insane rate during the first few million years or so after, whats amazing is that it has survived for the light to travel 13 billion light years to us and still appear as a galaxy.

Mentor
21-08-2009, 08:25 PM
There was no "kaboom", the term "Big bang" was originally a term used by those in support of the steady state universe, it was means to criticise the idea, what the "big bang" is is simply the cosmic expansion from a singularity. The term just stuck and it's implied false meaning did too.

</nitpicking :P>
Stars are just the result of lots of matter in one place, with the entire universe crammed together, there was definitely a bang :P It stuck because its actually a pretty good explication of what happened - the loaf of bread ideas more technically accurate maybe, but the general concepts the same, a bakeing bread is duller than a huge explosion :)


They can't explain Population II, so they go and make a hypothesis of Population III stars to explain Population II stars, yet we have found Population II stars, not Population III stars, so when we find a Population III star, I'll believe it..

Firstly - yes thats exactly right. Same way the hypothesis that a force now known as gravity was what made things fall. We investigated the hypothesis, tested it and turns out it theres something there - that said are knowledge of how gravity works is pretty limited, we know far more about evolution after all. But of cause, could say, well it must be magic, god did it. Not like understanding gravity is at all useful *cough*

Also population III stars as hypothesized could only exist in the very early universe, so none around today. we'll need to vastly improve are imaging capability's to see far enough in to space for any traces of em to be seen. That said, give it a decade "/


They "think" that some stars could be Population III stars, but of course that is skeptical. That's like driving while you're looking through a straw.
No, quite categorically they said they could not exist in the universe today - The hypothesis's relating to the core functionality of gravity are far easier to dispute as its even harder to test.


As well, as the fact..

That the farthest object that is seen in the sky.. by the Hubble and the Keck Telescopes, is 13 billion light-years away.. and it is assumed to have been created when the universe was just 750 million years old.
With a lifespan of "their lifespan would be extremely short, certainly less than one million years" and a near infinite universe to search though, what is even remotely surprising about that?? Thats like finding a needle in haystack larger than a few million milkyways(as in the universe)?

Tis a big place the universe, most of it empty.


It would take at least that long (if not longer) for the material form the theorized Big Bang to coalesce into stars, and for those stars to form a rotating galaxy.
Stars started forming roughly around 155 million years after the big bang. These stars were huge, not the type we see today, they created the materials that went on to form galexys and solar systems, from the emmence and frequent blasts a(they only last about a million years before going nova and are 1000's of times bigger than stars today)


But the problem! We are seeing that object 13 billion light-years away.. not as it is today.. and where it is today.. but as it was and where it was, 13 billion years ago, 13 billion light-years away from earth.

Basically, for this galaxy to lie 13 billion light-years away from Earth, only 750 million years after the Big bang, it would have had to travel 13 billion light years in just 750 million years' time.

That requires the galaxy in question, to travel more then 17 times faster than the speed of light (the speed of light, being a speed limit which according to the Big Bang Supporters, was in effect from the moment the universe was 3 seconds old).
... wat?

Speed of light = relative and sorry to say the earth is not the center of the universe, were moving away from everything else just as much as its moving away from us.

13 billion years ago the star we see as there was there and emmited light, where we are now that light is finally reaching us and we are seeing it. How from that you deduced that the star needed to be 16 billion lightyears away from where earths was then is unintelligible, this galaxy likely wasn't even formed at that point, never loan the earth?


For 3 seconds, the universe was "ruleless", with no laws of motion, no laws of gravity, no laws of anything.. nor any set limits, such as the speed of light or sound.
Not ruleless, but in conditions where the normal rules would not apply. Much like in quantom mechanics now where similar extreams can be seen.

Agnostic Bear
21-08-2009, 10:03 PM
Gonna pop my noodle in here and say atheists and theists are all idiots because they have no proof one way or another.

Strong Agnosticism for the goddamn win. Don't accept either view until one is proven right.

kasi
21-08-2009, 10:09 PM
LOL NO :|

Mentor
21-08-2009, 10:22 PM
Gonna pop my noodle in here and say atheists and theists are all idiots because they have no proof one way or another.

Strong Agnosticism for the goddamn win. Don't accept either view until one is proven right.
Are you also Agnostic about your belief in the flying spaghetti monster, the flying invisible blue dinosaur named chuck and the non-existent waffle iron of power?
If you come to the conclusion you don't believe they exist, then concider what you just said about religion as your an athiest like it or not.

Science means following the evidence, if the evidence shows theirs a god, then people who have any interest in the truth / being right - such as those who generally follow science will belive in god.
Unfortuntly zero evidence has ever even suggested at the remote possibility of a god, all evidence thus far both logical and empirical says quite the opposite :)

Caution
21-08-2009, 10:41 PM
I'm not sure what to make of it, I know God doesn't exist, but there's more to it. I know when you die, you're not gone though.

JACKTARD
21-08-2009, 11:25 PM
you know,

if a thread like this was created called
"does allah exist"
im pretty sure it would be closed.

Mentor
22-08-2009, 12:00 AM
you know,

if a thread like this was created called
"does allah exist"
im pretty sure it would be closed.

Allah IS a god. He gets included in the list of gods i don't believe in. When atheists say theres no god, you'll notice the lack of "except for Allah or Jehova or Zues, etc etc" O.o

DrLacero
22-08-2009, 09:37 AM
Gonna pop my noodle in here and say atheists and theists are all idiots because they have no proof one way or another.

Strong Agnosticism for the goddamn win. Don't accept either view until one is proven right.

The burden of proof is on the one making unfounded claims, and theists always have an excuse for why there is no way to prove God, it'll never be proven either way.

JACKTARD
22-08-2009, 10:33 AM
yeah but we refer to GOD as a christian symbol,
Other religions have names for their gods

Allah,
buddah and i cant remember the other ones. :/

Rixion
22-08-2009, 12:31 PM
God is the same person as Allah ain't he lol?

GommeInc
22-08-2009, 01:14 PM
God is the same person as Allah ain't he lol?
It's strongly suggested between the two religions :P When that big Muslim festival happens (can't remember what one lol) the Christian church supports the event, there's alot of Christian magazines with muslims on the front and stuff around the event.


yeah but we refer to GOD as a christian symbol,
Other religions have names for their gods

Allah,
buddah and i cant remember the other ones. :/
People go with God because gods / god / God all revolve around the same sort of idea. It's better than going God, Allah, Buddha etc etc etc, when god, gods or just God are better words to sum up the idea of a all powerful, all knowing being. If this thread was called "Does Allah exist?", people would tweak the subject to revolve around God, because the majority have heard or got an opinion on him/her. God and Allah are effectively the same thing, just a different name :/

I personally don't care, if God, Jesus or that Holy Spirit randomly appear, they've got alot to answer for. It'll probably be a Simpsons moment where God tells you how annoying prayer is and that Christmas has nothing to do with anything and that his best selling book got destroyed by wannabe book writers :P That's how I picture it at least, the timelines and stories make no sense. I'd love to meet someone who follows every word of the Bible, because no-one can and no-one will - you can find a verse which contradicts another in the Bible AND some of the odd morals, rules and laws are nearly all broken anyway (the wearing of two different materials for example :P). It's either that, or he appears on This Morning and OK magazines.

Mentor
22-08-2009, 01:28 PM
yeah but we refer to GOD as a christian symbol,
Other religions have names for their gods

Allah,
buddah and i cant remember the other ones. :/

You mean somthing like Yahweh?(the name of the christian god) ?

God refers to any god, since Christians dont believe in the other gods they generally dont feel the need to specify. When an atheist says it, they also dont as it doesn't matter which god people think of when they read the word god from an atheist, they have the same thoughts about ALL of them :)

luce
22-08-2009, 03:14 PM
you know,

if a thread like this was created called
"does allah exist"
im pretty sure it would be closed.

Why? This thread is referring to the christian God, the only reason the muslim thread might be closed if narrow minded idiots started being stupid. The fact that you think it would get closed proves that you aren't open to anything other then Christianity being discussed.


yeah but we refer to GOD as a christian symbol,
Other religions have names for their gods

Allah,
buddah and i cant remember the other ones. :/

That's because god is a christian symbol. Other religions do have names for their gods because they AREN'T GOD. Allah isn't god with another name, nor is Buddha or Vishnu. THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. God doesn't go around different religions shape shifting. The only reason we say "Allah is the muslim god" is because god is a symbol we can all identify with so it's a common comparison.


God is the same person as Allah ain't he lol?

Erm NO. Muslims think everyone who isn't a muslim are doomed and they hate them, they have different levels of Hell for people in different religions. Christians will be burnt in a hot fire, none believers in a furnace and there are hotter fires for those groups of people they hate more intensely. Islam is a very hateful religion, the reason some of them bomb places is because they believe the qu'ran tells them to kill all non-believers.

christians believe god is all loving and all powerful, he loves everyone weather you give you life to god or not, he's transcendent and omnipotent and many more things they are very much different.

GommeInc
22-08-2009, 03:23 PM
Erm NO. Muslims think everyone who isn't a muslim are doomed and they hate them, they have different levels of Hell for people in different religions. Christians will be burnt in a hot fire, none believers in a furnace and there are hotter fires for those groups of people they hate more intensely. Islam is a very hateful religion, the reason some of them bomb places is because they believe the qu'ran tells them to kill all non-believers.

christians believe god is all loving and all powerful, he loves everyone weather you give you life to god or not, he's transcendent and omnipotent and many more things they are very much different.
Actually, that's a gross generalisation. Different branches of Islam have different ideologies of the after life and who will and will not be punished. Some are open to other religions, some don't think you have to believe in Allah to live a successful life - provided you follow the rules you'll have a fruitful present and after life, while others think burning and spearing are suitable forms of not believing in Allah :)

Arguably, the silent majority of muslims don't actually have an opinion, it is not for them to judge and they tend to think if you're doing good deeds and being a good human being, you're fine to live as you wish. You're thinking of the small minority of Muslim Extremists, who kill anything with a pulse and aren't Allah followers :)

Mentor
22-08-2009, 03:45 PM
Why? This thread is referring to the christian God, the only reason the muslim thread might be closed if narrow minded idiots started being stupid. The fact that you think it would get closed proves that you aren't open to anything other then Christianity being discussed.
I disagree, It's referring to God. That includes all gods, Allah, Yahweh, Set and the rest of them.
Pretty much the entire debate has been over the general concept of God, rather than any specific instance o.o


That's because god is a christian symbol. Other religions do have names for their gods because they AREN'T GOD. Allah isn't god with another name, nor is Buddha or Vishnu. THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. God doesn't go around different religions shape shifting. The only reason we say "Allah is the muslim god" is because god is a symbol we can all identify with so it's a common comparison.
No God means all gods, from Thor to Allah to Yahweh (this being the name of the Christian god, despite your claims he doesn't have one)


Erm NO. Muslims think everyone who isn't a muslim are doomed and they hate them, they have different levels of Hell for people in different religions. Christians will be burnt in a hot fire, none believers in a furnace and there are hotter fires for those groups of people they hate more intensely. Islam is a very hateful religion, the reason some of them bomb places is because they believe the qu'ran tells them to kill all non-believers
Weired, thats exactly what the Christian bible says will happen to people of any other religion too.. Not every Christian believes that, not every muslim believes that ether. All religious texts due to the huge number of contradictions are just down to interpretation.

Christains have bombed more people, murdered more people and done more harm than any other religion - Generally even against other christrom ains, the entire IRA thing was catholics v Protestants...

I would educate yourself a little more on the subject as right now this reads as being incredibly bigoted if not a little racist "/


christians believe god is all loving and all powerful, he loves everyone weather you give you life to god or not, he's transcendent and omnipotent and many more things they are very much different.
Actually he's totally the same. Although he's killed more people, been more violent and generally just shown himself to be a great deal eviler than the gods in most other religions.

How can you say a god who would be so evil as to create a place called hell and make people suffer there for all eternity, benevolent or mercifully? Hitler/Stalin had nothing on the acts god has demanded in the bible?

luce
22-08-2009, 09:13 PM
Actually, that's a gross generalisation. Different branches of Islam have different ideologies of the after life and who will and will not be punished. Some are open to other religions, some don't think you have to believe in Allah to live a successful life - provided you follow the rules you'll have a fruitful present and after life, while others think burning and spearing are suitable forms of not believing in Allah :)

Arguably, the silent majority of muslims don't actually have an opinion, it is not for them to judge and they tend to think if you're doing good deeds and being a good human being, you're fine to live as you wish. You're thinking of the small minority of Muslim Extremists, who kill anything with a pulse and aren't Allah followers :)

I'm not an expert in the area of Islam im just scratching the surface on that religion, so no doubt what you say is true. Alongside what i said. Like in every religion there is many branches and i homed in on the extreme end of islam.


I disagree, It's referring to God. That includes all gods, Allah, Yahweh, Set and the rest of them.
Pretty much the entire debate has been over the general concept of God, rather than any specific instance o.o


No God means all gods, from Thor to Allah to Yahweh (this being the name of the Christian god, despite your claims he doesn't have one)


Weired, thats exactly what the Christian bible says will happen to people of any other religion too.. Not every Christian believes that, not every muslim believes that ether. All religious texts due to the huge number of contradictions are just down to interpretation.

Christains have bombed more people, murdered more people and done more harm than any other religion - Generally even against other christrom ains, the entire IRA thing was catholics v Protestants...

I would educate yourself a little more on the subject as right now this reads as being incredibly bigoted if not a little racist "/


Actually he's totally the same. Although he's killed more people, been more violent and generally just shown himself to be a great deal eviler than the gods in most other religions.

How can you say a god who would be so evil as to create a place called hell and make people suffer there for all eternity, benevolent or mercifully? Hitler/Stalin had nothing on the acts god has demanded in the bible?

I am in no way racist and meant no offense in what i said about muslims.

My opinions on god have formed from a christian upbringing and a christian life.

I'm really not in the mood for writing out everything i believe in and why i believe in it mainly because i don't want it torn apart by some ill-informed teenager. You can PM me if you really want to carry this on because theology is sick so yeah :)

Mentor
22-08-2009, 11:09 PM
I am in no way racist and meant no offense in what i said about muslims.

"Islam is a very hateful religion, the reason some of them bomb places is because they believe the qu'ran tells them to kill all non-believers"

Yup, all Muslims are evil and hateful. No judgments or racist judgments being made there - sure the majority of terrorist attacks were committed by christians, blowing up plenty of buildings with the whole IRA thing and the klu Klux Klan's racial attacks to the more modern firebombing of abortion clinics= not to mention a few outright murders... But yea, its all those other religion thats all hateful never Christians.

If you look at the extreme ends of any religion, you aint gonna find anything good - kinda unfair to make statements about Islamic extremists when the Christian extremist's are quite easly far worse. (be it primarily because theres more of them_


My opinions on god have formed from a christian upbringing and a christian life.

I'm really not in the mood for writing out everything i believe in and why i believe in it mainly because i don't want it torn apart by some ill-informed teenager. You can PM me if you really want to carry this on because theology is sick so yeah :
My opinions are based on fact, logic, evidence and a long running interest in theology that has provided me with an reasonable wealth of understanding.
From the way you come across i'm guessing you probably haven't even read the bible in its entirety, never loan have entered in to any real critical discussion of the concepts involved or consideration of the wide array of interpretations out there.

The fact so far your argument consist of a ad hominem attack kinda backs up my point.

Kinda ironic you call me the ill informed teenager o.0 Though dont expect a PM, i honestly don't care, i'm far more interested in discussing the wider issue in a public forum with interested parties than i am in discussing it with someones whos sole contribution so far has been a few racist remarks and some insults aimed at myself rather than my augments.

RandomManJay
22-08-2009, 11:10 PM
In terms of Religion, the term god is spread along every religion which has an omnipitent being at the top:

- For Christianity it's 'God', with a capital G, the god of Christianity's name is God itself.
- For Judaism it's usually 'Yahweh', but depending on certain eras and subcultures it can differ.
- For Islam, it's Allah, and as far as I can see, it has always been known as Allah.
- Buddhism doesn't have a god, the Buddha was the first human to acheive enlightenment, he did grow old and die and he didn't perform miracles, he is simply the example of how enlightenment can be acheived. If he was defined as a god, he would be the only god to live a full life and die naturally out of all religions (that I know of).

The term god is simply the word used to define the omnipitent being at the top and forefront of the religion, God isn't related to other religion's as his name is defined by Christians. Therefore the god itself could be the same person, just represented differently in every faith. The main topic of this debate is focused on the Christian god, probably because, just assuming, the majority of members are Christian or have the most knowledge about this particular god, the topic is aimed at god as a whole though.

Just wondering how exactly did this topic turn into who is god and what it belongs to rather than does it exist :P.

Gullable
23-08-2009, 12:27 PM
Personally i think he does exist but i dont actually believe it if you get me?, dont judge me btw its just im not christian and have not been brought up with god always in my mind, i dont like to think about if he exists because then i think about how the world was made, who are gods parents & so on + it makes me mixed up.
i have no opinion if he exists or not but i know hes up there:)

dogboy123
23-08-2009, 12:32 PM
I dont believe in god

However i think that religion is a main factor to why people live their lives, if there was no religion how would so many people cope without anyone to really turn to?

RandomManJay
23-08-2009, 02:34 PM
I dont believe in god

However i think that religion is a main factor to why people live their lives, if there was no religion how would so many people cope without anyone to really turn to?

It's the main reason why religion exists, it gives the answers and support, but its also the main reason why it can't simply be abolished considering people are brought up to believe that you can't live without god, that's why people are relucant to accept that god doesn't exist and why people don't understand how people can live without god. They've been brought up to be unconsiously dependent on the existance and dependence of god.

This doesn't apply to everyone, but it does apply to a small minority.

Tarmu
23-08-2009, 05:06 PM
No I don't believe in God.
I can explain why I don't. If anyone wants me to explain to them.

Mentor
23-08-2009, 09:13 PM
I dont believe in god

However i think that religion is a main factor to why people live their lives, if there was no religion how would so many people cope without anyone to really turn to?
Maybe they'd actually start helping each other, instead of wasting time praying to end poverty maybe thay could do charity work and you know, actually help others.
Rather than turn to god when things are bad, maybe you know try to help themselves, do something productive.
Having a god to turn to is just an excuse for inaction and for not doing. If someone needs help, go help them instead of relying on a non-existent god to do this for them "/

GommeInc
23-08-2009, 11:42 PM
Maybe they'd actually start helping each other, instead of wasting time praying to end poverty maybe thay could do charity work and you know, actually help others.
Rather than turn to god when things are bad, maybe you know try to help themselves, do something productive.
Having a god to turn to is just an excuse for inaction and for not doing. If someone needs help, go help them instead of relying on a non-existent god to do this for them "/
That's a bit of a generalisation :P In my church alot of money is given to charity, the building is rented out (for cheap) for events and quite alot of the members go and do voluntary stuff in the UK and abroad - Kenya for example, a group came back after a 3 week stay in a children's hospice, using money raised to bring in aid and build stuff. They even joined in with events like had a huge football game :) When they left, they did this interesting leaving ceremony!

But I agree with the pointless and tedious amounts of prayer. Instead of wasting time praying for someone to get better (especially ones that aren't physically present), go to them and encourage them or better yet, make them feel important and wanted. If someone is in need of help with a project like building, go out and help. Charitable work is a good example too, clearing streets. Heck, they believe in the good Samaritan, yet quite alot don't follow it :/ Loads of church groups help out with drunkards out partying, I think there's a huge group in Manchester that help out the police.

RandomManJay
24-08-2009, 01:21 PM
Most religions encourage prayer for very simple reasons, it makes their religion easy to follow which means you have nothing to do but sit there and hope that something good will happen. It basically means its a do nothing and hope for the best religion. Many people think that if they prey long and hard enough, good things will happen, the funny thing about it is, they mostly prey for the little things around them and when they do change, it increases their faith and makes them prey more. Preying is alright depending on who its for, like if a terminal patient is dying and their family is preying for comfort and acceptance. But preying so that wars would and poverty would cease to exist is just hopeful thinking and personally I agree, if they want something done and want something to get better, get involved instead of sitting around with your head bowed waiting for god to do it for you.

Santorefish
26-08-2009, 04:34 PM
1 word, miracles

Are they you gardian angel or a greater force helping u through life?

Or are they unlikely coincidences?

Mentor
26-08-2009, 06:57 PM
1 word, miracles

Are they you gardian angel or a greater force helping u through life?

Or are they unlikely coincidences?
Miracles is just a name used to describe an event an individual is too ignorant to understand o.0 How does it prove anything?

VirtualG
28-08-2009, 08:03 AM
God does not exist. There are so many flaws. If god was real he would either forgive everyone, in which case you can do no wrong and theres no such thing as hell, but if he's vengeful then everyone should live in fear of going to hell. I believe religion was created to control the masses and give meaning and rules to life. I respect the christian and budhist ethics, as well as the teachings of muhammad and the eastern prophicies but religion has been the cause of, or excuse for, countless atrosphies throughout the history of man kind. Sorry if there are any spelling mistakes...

RandomManJay
28-08-2009, 09:44 AM
God does not exist. There are so many flaws. If god was real he would either forgive everyone, in which case you can do no wrong and theres no such thing as hell, but if he's vengeful then everyone should live in fear of going to hell. I believe religion was created to control the masses and give meaning and rules to life. I respect the christian and budhist ethics, as well as the teachings of muhammad and the eastern prophicies but religion has been the cause of, or excuse for, countless atrosphies throughout the history of man kind. Sorry if there are any spelling mistakes...

Exactly right :D. You should skim over the story of the Apocalypes of Peter, if they had included that instead of the Revelation of John it would have made believing it a lot easier :P. It is true that they did give meaning, but the meaning isn't requied anymore, we as a race understand enough about the world and life that these beliefs aren't really required anymore, but as always the religions (not all) fight back with no proof and claiming that the scientific evidence must be wrong or scientists have done it to steer you away from god (lol).

VirtualG
29-08-2009, 06:30 AM
Exactly right :D. You should skim over the story of the Apocalypes of Peter, if they had included that instead of the Revelation of John it would have made believing it a lot easier :P. It is true that they did give meaning, but the meaning isn't requied anymore, we as a race understand enough about the world and life that these beliefs aren't really required anymore, but as always the religions (not all) fight back with no proof and claiming that the scientific evidence must be wrong or scientists have done it to steer you away from god (lol).
First of all, thnx :) I agree with you on everything you have stated so far. Every single miracle in the bible has been explained by scientists for one. Second of all, the bible has been tampered with and edited over the last 2000 years by kings, popes, and other rules over the centuries to suit what they want so they can unite the population and make them believe what the ruler wants is also god's will. If God was real, why would there be soo much suffering in this world, or would he be a sick, sadistic freak who likes to see people, from which supposedly came from his image, suffer and die. And if there was a God and God made everything then who created God? Human minds are the most intellectual minds that we know of but we, ourselves, can noot possibly comprehend all of the universe's secrets. Some things are not always meant to be understood. Do you think you are equal to hitler, himmler or sadam? Do you think they are worthless scum or do you think thhey are just like you, because God supposedly says that EVERYONE's equal which means you just as good as a murderer, a rapist, etc. There is no such thing as a real chritian, there never has been and there never will be. You may believe in chrisitan ethics, I believe in christian ethics, but that doesn't mean you will live by them. The christian pope was once in the Young Nazi's group when he was a child, do you think he never swore, never teased anyone, never did anything wrong? (btw just because you may believe in chritian ethics eg love one another, doesn't mean you believe in christianity) I was baptised by my mother when I was a child, she sent me to a catholic primary school. I've recieved all the sacraments except those of marriage and the last rights but I do not believe in God. I was forced to. My dad did not know of my baptism. I haven't seen my mother in years and I've rejected God completely (but still go to a chrisitan school) and I do not force my views and opinions onto people as most christians will tend to, though I will voice them, whether you listen to them or not is up to you. I think God was a creation of man so that the do not was fear what is to come after death. The truth is, after you die several things can happen you can be burnt to a crisp and ashes shoved into a box, you can be shoved in the ground and decompose as the worms eat you, etc. Im not scared of death. Im not scared of "god". Im a realist. I have many beliefs, some of which may be wrong but if god was real and he could see everything and be every, then let him stop you from reading this post.

DrLacero
30-08-2009, 05:35 AM
1 word, miracles

Are they you gardian angel or a greater force helping u through life?

Or are they unlikely coincidences?

A miracle is an event which is impossible and could only be the work of a supernatural cause, show me one miracle, I don't think you can find anything that can't be described with a cause.

nooblah123
01-09-2009, 12:44 AM
Idk if he exists or not XD

VirtualG
03-09-2009, 07:27 AM
Something that exist is either matter or energy, since god is neither he does not exist.

BaNaNaS
15-09-2009, 09:22 PM
yes, I do believe in God

Ardemax
16-09-2009, 08:47 AM
Something that exist is either matter or energy, since god is neither he does not exist.


you don't know what god is made of, so that is a fail

RandomManJay
16-09-2009, 10:11 PM
you don't know what god is made of, so that is a fail

The thing is if he is made of anything then there would be proof of his existance and if he is made of something, then he would be bound by the limitations within this universe/reality/dimension. So if god is made of something, his power is demeaned by the fact that he is physical, that's why he's known to be omnipitent and doesn't have a physical form because of the limitiation that would come with it, hence the dilemma of his existance.

Glitter
16-09-2009, 10:28 PM
i dont think theres a god, no.

Ardemax
17-09-2009, 08:19 AM
The thing is if he is made of anything then there would be proof of his existance and if he is made of something, then he would be bound by the limitations within this universe/reality/dimension. So if god is made of something, his power is demeaned by the fact that he is physical, that's why he's known to be omnipitent and doesn't have a physical form because of the limitiation that would come with it, hence the dilemma of his existance.

well if he created matter then surely he'd know how to be undetected/not seen by existance?

RandomManJay
17-09-2009, 09:14 AM
well if he created matter then surely he'd know how to be undetected/not seen by existance?

Hence the dilemma?

We've both made assumptions about his existance and to how powerful he is. I put that if he is physical he would be limited by forces within this universe, therefore limiting his omnipitency, also I assume that everything in the universe must be physical (either through physical matter or effect (e.g. gravity and light etc.) in order for it to exist. You assume that he created matter and considering that, you assume that he would know enough about the universe to conseal his physical or non-physical existance from us.

Both arguements describe god in a completelt different way. My way states that if he does exist, then he would be physical and therefore bound by our universe, this doesn't limit him completely as we don't know how powerful someone can be while being bound by our universe, so he may still be here, but considering there is no proof of him every being here, its reasonable to assume he doesn't exist as there is no other proof to contradict this. Your way states that god doesn't need to be physical to exist, he created matter hence he knows enough about it etc. You describe him in a way which puts his power higher than anything in the universe, the power to even maniplate himself to keep himself hidden, something which defies his omnipitency because it boasts that his power is higher than himself, therefore he cannot understand it (this is taken from the idea that we could not even come close to comprehending gods power because we are not to his level, if god is not even at his own level, how can he understand his power? Like manipulating the omnipitent).

There are dilemmas in both arguements, but considering there is no proof of his existance, non-believers will refuse to believe he is or was ever here. And considering the lack of proof, believers will play the same angle as they always do, he doesn't need to be physical to exist, he is god, the 'Blind Faith' explanation.

Ardemax
17-09-2009, 10:29 AM
But to judge God you must first read the Bible surely?

Black_Apalachi
17-09-2009, 11:39 AM
But to judge God you must first read the Bible surely?

Tbh even though a very large amount of people wrote the Bible, none of them ever saw God any more than we have. Actually I'm probably only saying that as an atheist, a Christian would point out the various stories involving the Holy Spirit etc.

RandomManJay
17-09-2009, 12:02 PM
But to judge God you must first read the Bible surely?

I was a Christian till I was 11 years old and even then I knew the bible was a load of rubbish, I got an abrided version Bible from my secondary school as a part of my RS studies which was pitiful to be honast and although I haven't read the entire bible, I have read certain parts and have read arguements for and against certain stories and how they are depicted within the bible. I also know of and read many stories which weren't included within the new testement which personally I believe should have been, it would have made it easier to believe I assure you. To put it bluntly, the modern day bible is a tainted piece of crap, altered by dominant values at the time and mis-translated so many times that it isn't even the bible anymore, also considering the stories in the bible were written by men who lived over 100 years after Jesus' death, there isn't much to it other than stories being passed down from generation to generation, changed with each telling. So in the end, no one today has read the true bible. The bible may be the symbol and the main text of the religion, but the religion itself would be hauled into question if you compare the modern day bible to the one over 1000 years ago.

So I don't think the bible has anything to do with judging the existance of god as its a book full of tainted stories so theres no knowing if they're actually true or not. I know some people take the bible as the actual word of god and I'm fine with that, and if you do, you do reserve the right to say that we must read it, but if you don't theres no point since to an atheist, the bible is nothing more than stories and holds no impact on the judgement of god. The teachings which are taken from the bible are valid, such as no stealing or murdering or adultary, but thats all that can be taken as valid as these are the main values in todays society, but other than that theres nothing to it.

Ardemax
17-09-2009, 03:33 PM
Tbh even though a very large amount of people wrote the Bible, none of them ever saw God any more than we have. Actually I'm probably only saying that as an atheist, a Christian would point out the various stories involving the Holy Spirit etc.


get out your history book again, someone in the bible has seen god :P

-K8T!E-
17-09-2009, 10:46 PM
No I dont believe in God. Theres no proof at all that he exists and I think that people just believe in god cos' they like the idea that if they pray and go to mass etc they'll be rewarded in and that nothing bad will happen to them. It's a load of rubbish really.

My parents are always giving out to me, cos they think i havent thought this out properly, and that I should give the whole religon thing another chance. They think 13 is too young to have decided you dont believe in God.

RandomManJay
17-09-2009, 11:24 PM
No I dont believe in God. Theres no proof at all that he exists and I think that people just believe in god cos' they like the idea that if they pray and go to mass etc they'll be rewarded in and that nothing bad will happen to them. It's a load of rubbish really.

My parents are always giving out to me, cos they think i havent thought this out properly, and that I should give the whole religon thing another chance. They think 13 is too young to have decided you dont believe in God.

Well I was 11 when I decided to be stop believing in god so if you want to believe that there is no god go for it :P.

VirtualG
18-09-2009, 06:47 AM
well if he created matter then surely he'd know how to be undetected/not seen by existance?


But to judge God you must first read the Bible surely?
No. The bible has been edited over the last 7000 by the Catholic Church and rulers throughout History so they can manipulate the masses by changing the laws set by god, what are expected of people, that it is ok to fight for your country, that there is meaning to life (other there would have been chaos) And let me ask you something.
If God has the power but no the will to end evil, then is he not satan himself and a sadist?
If God has the will but not the power then why call him God? What can he do that we cant? Isn't he all powerful?
And if he has both will and the power, then why is there still evil? And if he has neither, then what does he become?

RandomManJay
18-09-2009, 08:10 AM
No. The bible has been edited over the last 7000 by the Catholic Church and rulers throughout History so they can manipulate the masses by changing the laws set by god, what are expected of people, that it is ok to fight for your country, that there is meaning to life (other there would have been chaos) And let me ask you something.
If God has the power but no the will to end evil, then is he not satan himself and a sadist?
If God has the will but not the power then why call him God? What can he do that we cant? Isn't he all powerful?
And if he has both will and the power, then why is there still evil? And if he has neither, then what does he become?

Lol nice questions :P.

Ardemax
18-09-2009, 10:11 AM
im sorry but you obviously didn't read my post, read the bible
it's explained in their better
but ill attempy

do you know who satan is? research that then come back to me
the world is full of sin, so God is testing us with evil to see who is going to heaven and hell, that's my opinion, and ill share that with quite a few others

VirtualG
21-09-2009, 05:38 AM
im sorry but you obviously didn't read my post, read the bible
it's explained in their better
but ill attempy

do you know who satan is? research that then come back to me
the world is full of sin, so God is testing us with evil to see who is going to heaven and hell, that's my opinion, and ill share that with quite a few others
Ahh, so your saying he testing us for our own good, like a teacher? If he was so nice wouldn't he give us equal and fair "test" conditions because the majority of the people in the world (like 99%) are only bad because of a bad life. So why would "God" be so unfair, unkind, and put us through conditions just to see if we are worthy of having a nice life? Thats sadism to me!

Ardemax
21-09-2009, 06:03 AM
Ahh, so your saying he testing us for our own good, like a teacher? If he was so nice wouldn't he give us equal and fair "test" conditions because the majority of the people in the world (like 99%) are only bad because of a bad life. So why would "God" be so unfair, unkind, and put us through conditions just to see if we are worthy of having a nice life? Thats sadism to me!

Well imo the world is full of sin, and this can be shown by greedy people, robbers, criminals etc.

And whoever said, there's no proof he exists, there's no proof he doesn't :eusa_hand

VirtualG
21-09-2009, 10:53 AM
Well imo the world is full of sin, and this can be shown by greedy people, robbers, criminals etc.

And whoever said, there's no proof he exists, there's no proof he doesn't :eusa_hand
Uhh, thats where your wrong, there is proof that he doesn't exist, but there eis proof that he does exist to. The reliability of the proof is the problem. The bible is proof, but that was written over 7000 years ago, we ahve rpoven he doesn't exist by proving that if you exist you are either matter or energy and if he is one or the other than he cease's to be a god as he is bound to physical laws.

Black_Apalachi
21-09-2009, 02:07 PM
get out your history book again, someone in the bible has seen god :P

I said Christians would disagree. It's a case of how much you believe what you read.


Well imo the world is full of sin, and this can be shown by greedy people, robbers, criminals etc.

And whoever said, there's no proof he exists, there's no proof he doesn't :eusa_hand

There's no proof the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist.


Uhh, thats where your wrong, there is proof that he doesn't exist, but there eis proof that he does exist to. The reliability of the proof is the problem. The bible is proof, but that was written over 7000 years ago, we ahve rpoven he doesn't exist by proving that if you exist you are either matter or energy and if he is one or the other than he cease's to be a god as he is bound to physical laws.

What proof is there God exists? If you say the Bible, I won't take any post from you seriously ever again :P. Not to mention; you say a book, half of which is about a man who was supposedly born just over 2000 years ago, is 7000 years old? :rolleyes:

Ardemax
21-09-2009, 05:38 PM
I said Christians would disagree. It's a case of how much you believe what you read.



There's no proof the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist.



What proof is there God exists? If you say the Bible, I won't take any post from you seriously ever again :P. Not to mention; you say a book, half of which is about a man who was supposedly born just over 2000 years ago, is 7000 years old? :rolleyes:


that's a lot of negativity, some un thought out.

there's no proof the tooth fairy doesn't exist? i think there is

im entitled to my own opinion and you're entitled to yours, if you say i believe the bible and you won't take another post of mine seriously, i hate to call you bad for it.

since when was ther bible 7000 years old?

VirtualG
21-09-2009, 09:58 PM
that's a lot of negativity, some un thought out.

there's no proof the tooth fairy doesn't exist? i think there is

im entitled to my own opinion and you're entitled to yours, if you say i believe the bible and you won't take another post of mine seriously, i hate to call you bad for it.

since when was ther bible 7000 years old?
How isn't the bible written over 7000 years ago? And that thing about the tooth fairy is just proving my point. How many people believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus when they are children but then they realise one day that it is unrealistic. How can you prove that the tooth fairy doesn't exist, but you still think it's a load of bull, dont you?

Black_Apalachi
22-09-2009, 03:11 AM
that's a lot of negativity, some un thought out.

there's no proof the tooth fairy doesn't exist? i think there is

im entitled to my own opinion and you're entitled to yours, if you say i believe the bible and you won't take another post of mine seriously, i hate to call you bad for it.

since when was ther bible 7000 years old?

No, my post was completely thought out, which is a lot more than can be said for the one it was in response to.

Prove that the tooth fairy doesn't exist then?

I didn't say anything about having your own opinion or even believing the Bible. I referred to your point about the Bible being proof. And you're the one who said it was 7000 years old. :S

VirtualG
22-09-2009, 05:36 AM
No, my post was completely thought out, which is a lot more than can be said for the one it was in response to.

Prove that the tooth fairy doesn't exist then?

I didn't say anything about having your own opinion or even believing the Bible. I referred to your point about the Bible being proof. And you're the one who said it was 7000 years old. :S
I think he's refering to me as Im the one who said the bible thing (but the tooth fairy was you, and great point btw) But the bible was written 7000 years ago. Shows how much he knows about his own religion.

Ardemax
22-09-2009, 06:14 AM
this debate is turning into an arguement

you're not respecting my opinions in anyway shape or form.

if i believe in something, you can't say it's not real?
give me one scientific evidence that God doesn't exist. and none of this "matter" stuff, cos' that's a load of **.

VirtualG
22-09-2009, 09:09 AM
this debate is turning into an arguement

you're not respecting my opinions in anyway shape or form.

if i believe in something, you can't say it's not real?
give me one scientific evidence that God doesn't exist. and none of this "matter" stuff, cos' that's a load of **.
My God (is not real) your hypocritical. You are saying that I should respect your beliefs by not saying that God's not real but you are disrespecting my beliefs by saying he is. A debate is a formal arguement, by the way, and do you have any scientific proof that God exists? NO! The fact is you dont. Although we may not be able to "prove it" in YOUR terms, it is quite ovious that a God (which is a spiritual, superior being) does not exist as spirits do not exist as spirits are not energy or matter, therefore they do not exist. How am I not getting through to you?

What you dont understand is if you are going to say something then you have to back it up. And If you can back it up then make sure theres enough "back up" that you can take the crap that comes back at you. If you cant then dont get into a fight. It's like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

RandomManJay
22-09-2009, 10:46 AM
I think he's refering to me as Im the one who said the bible thing (but the tooth fairy was you, and great point btw) But the bible was written 7000 years ago. Shows how much he knows about his own religion.

Actually the bible was written roughly 1800-2000 years ago (depending on which section of the bible your looking at, some parts are older than others, some of the earliest recorded ones are around 3500-3700), also the fact that the bible states that the earth is only roughly 4000 years old, I don't really think that the bible was written 3000 years before we supposedly came into existance. Carbon dating and whatnot can also prove this as the original texts and scriptures have been proven to be written around 2000 years ago.


My God (is not real) your hypocritical. You are saying that I should respect your beliefs by not saying that God's not real but you are disrespecting my beliefs by saying he is. A debate is a formal arguement, by the way, and do you have any scientific proof that God exists? NO! The fact is you dont. Although we may not be able to "prove it" in YOUR terms, it is quite ovious that a God (which is a spiritual, superior being) does not exist as spirits do not exist as spirits are not energy or matter, therefore they do not exist. How am I not getting through to you?

What you dont understand is if you are going to say something then you have to back it up. And If you can back it up then make sure theres enough "back up" that you can take the crap that comes back at you. If you cant then dont get into a fight. It's like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

I do agree that you have the right to your own opinion, but you aren't simply stating your opinion, your attempting to discredit Ardemax's which isn't the reason for a debate, you state your own opinion and your own opinion of someone else’s opinion with your knowledge, you don't constantly badger them stating they don't get it and have no proof to justify it, if they don't believe in it, then they don't believe in it, you don't have the right to say they're wrong. There is no proof that god exists, but there isnt any to say that he doesn't, there is evidence that suggests that god doesn't have to exist in order for us or the universe to exist and considering the lack of evidence that god does exist, it is reasonable to assume that he doesn't. You can't use blind science to change someones opinion because science can only prove that this universe didn't require god to come into existance, but it cannot prove without a shadow of a doubt that he doesn't exist.

VirtualG
22-09-2009, 11:32 AM
Actually the bible was written roughly 1800-2000 years ago (depending on which section of the bible your looking at, some parts are older than others, some of the earliest recorded ones are around 3500-3700), also the fact that the bible states that the earth is only roughly 4000 years old, I don't really think that the bible was written 3000 years before we supposedly came into existance. Carbon dating and whatnot can also prove this as the original texts and scriptures have been proven to be written around 2000 years ago.



I do agree that you have the right to your own opinion, but you aren't simply stating your opinion, your attempting to discredit Ardemax's which isn't the reason for a debate, you state your own opinion and your own opinion of someone else’s opinion with your knowledge, you don't constantly badger them stating they don't get it and have no proof to justify it, if they don't believe in it, then they don't believe in it, you don't have the right to say they're wrong. There is no proof that god exists, but there isnt any to say that he doesn't, there is evidence that suggests that god doesn't have to exist in order for us or the universe to exist and considering the lack of evidence that god does exist, it is reasonable to assume that he doesn't. You can't use blind science to change someones opinion because science can only prove that this universe didn't require god to come into existance, but it cannot prove without a shadow of a doubt that he doesn't exist.
I was talking about the old testament that was written long before Jesus' time which is actually 7000 years (or older). I wasn't originally bagging ardemax out saying that God dosent exist, if you read my post you may recall that he was saying (in the quote) that I have no right to say that god doesn't exist, which I do, It's my belief, and that he is allowed to have his own opinion, which he is, I never took that away from him, because he believes God exists and I dont, I then stated that if he wants himself to have a right to say that God exists because thats his belief then I have all rights to say God Doesn't exist because thats my belief, sound fair?

And technically, according to dictionary definitions, it is unfeesable and as far as I can see impossible to exist (by the dictionaries definition) as God (if he exists) would be a spirit, but a spirit is neither matter nor energy and something that exists is either matter or energy, since he is neither he doesn't exist (according to the definition of existence, and Isn't that what the debate is about?)

Ohh, and back to the bible part, where are these "original scriptures" When your saying that the bible is only 3400 or something years old I believe your dating back just to moses? http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=define%3A+bible&meta=&aq=f&oq= Thta link defines the bible as the collection of christian (including the jewish parts, eg the old testament) sacred writings. If you go way, way back you can find collections of sacred christians writings that were available over 7000 years ago, therefore there was a bible.

Love the sig btw

Edited by iAdam (Forum Super Moderator); Posts merged due to genuine mistake.

Famish
22-09-2009, 11:38 AM
I personally do not believe in god, anymore. I used to until i became mature enough to make my own decisions about the world and everything in it.

SM007H
22-09-2009, 01:07 PM
Ok, I feel like joining in this debate.

Lets start of by saying;

"PROOF" is irrelevent, God can NOT be proven/does NOT want to be prooven/will NOT be prooven. So if you are asking for proof you are looking in the wrong place. If god gives ANY proof it takes away free will. Anyone who has a little brains will understand this. This is clearly conveyed through out the bible.

RandomManJay
22-09-2009, 01:10 PM
I was talking about the old testament that was written long before Jesus' time which is actually 7000 years (or older). I wasn't originally bagging ardemax out saying that God dosent exist, if you read my post you may recall that he was saying (in the quote) that I have no right to say that god doesn't exist, which I do, It's my belief, and that he is allowed to have his own opinion, which he is, I never took that away from him, because he believes God exists and I dont, I then stated that if he wants himself to have a right to say that God exists because thats his belief then I have all rights to say God Doesn't exist because thats my belief, sound fair?

And technically, according to dictionary definitions, it is unfeesable and as far as I can see impossible to exist (by the dictionaries definition) as God (if he exists) would be a spirit, but a spirit is neither matter nor energy and something that exists is either matter or energy, since he is neither he doesn't exist (according to the definition of existence, and Isn't that what the debate is about?)

Ohh, and back to the bible part, where are these "original scriptures" When your saying that the bible is only 3400 or something years old I believe your dating back just to moses? http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=define%3A+bible&meta=&aq=f&oq= Thta link defines the bible as the collection of christian (including the jewish parts, eg the old testament) sacred writings. If you go way, way back you can find collections of sacred christians writings that were available over 7000 years ago, therefore there was a bible.

Nicely put, I was referring to the new testament considering it is the main text of the Christian religion, also it is difficult to conceive that the scriptures from the earliest depictions of the bible as still used today by the modern church. Also you said there was a bible which is indeed true, many bibles have been found in eras earlier than the conception of the 'Bible', such as Druid, Pagan etc. but I'm not talking about them or the original Christians as they have very little importance in comparison to the influence of modern day Christianity. With all that being said, the old testament is indeed older than 2000 years old, but still isn't as old as 7000.

As for the original scriptures, they are the original stories told and written before the bible was actually compiled into one book, the collection of original stories found during excavations and whatnot surrounding religious landmarks. This is also the reason why we know there were other stories which were excluded from the bible, for example: 'Adam and Lilith' and 'The Apocalypse of Peter', which are not included in the bible for reasons which are obvious when you read them, and personally would have preferred them to the stories which took their place in the bible, it would have made believing a lot easier and enjoyable :P.

RandomManJay
22-09-2009, 01:27 PM
Soz, double post.

Was the sig post for me or someone else? Just noticed it now :P


Ok, I feel like joining in this debate.

Lets start of by saying;

"PROOF" is irrelevent, God can NOT be proven/does NOT want to be prooven/will NOT be prooven. So if you are asking for proof you are looking in the wrong place. If god gives ANY proof it takes away free will. Anyone who has a little brains will understand this. This is clearly conveyed through out the bible.

The statement you gave makes two assumptions which both go hand in hand. It assumes that god already exists as well as assuming that he has also given us free will, assumptions which are ofcourse taken from the bible. So heres the thing, what if he didn't? Then there would be no reason against asking for proof, and if he didn't exist at all, then there is still no reason against asking. The statement you gave is known as a Blind-Faith argument, that god doesn't need to prove his existance and if he did, it would end badly for us. Giving both reason and explanation of why not to ask for proof and beleive in him blindly.

SM007H
22-09-2009, 01:55 PM
Soz, double post.

Was the sig post for me or someone else? Just noticed it now :P



The statement you gave makes two assumptions which both go hand in hand. It assumes that god already exists as well as assuming that he has also given us free will, assumptions which are ofcourse taken from the bible. So heres the thing, what if he didn't? Then there would be no reason against asking for proof, and if he didn't exist at all, then there is still no reason against asking. The statement you gave is known as a Faith argument, that god doesn't need to prove his existance and if he did, it would end badly for us. Giving both reason and explanation of why not to ask for proof and beleive in him blindly.

Where you asking for a return on that? seem's to me you've already found out why i belive this.

Anyway, "Blind-Faith" is hardly the case, Jesus and the bible give us enough to understand that our faith is definetly not blind :L

RandomManJay
22-09-2009, 02:35 PM
Where you asking for a return on that? seem's to me you've already found out why i belive this.

Anyway, "Blind-Faith" is hardly the case, Jesus and the bible give us enough to understand that our faith is definetly not blind :L

I was really just explaining my take on what you said, its the most commonly used explanation of why people say there is no proof of god and why we should believe in him. Also Blind Faith is exactly what you said, to beleive something without proof is to believe blindly, just as people blindly believe science, its the same thing only different perspectives, a belief in something that has no proof or simply something you do not understand. Although it is a good arguement as it explains everything in one nice little package, it is just as flaud to a non-believer as science is to a believer in respects of both belief and understanding. It offers no resolve except in accepting that god exists and to believe in him blindly.

And as for the bible, you can read up on some earlier posts by me and others about the low validity of the bible in context of mistranslation and intentional alteration by dominant religious figures and values etc. So its like reading a story that you believe completely with no proof that it happened, to believe blindly.

EDIT: If you do quote me, please don't change the post, if you think I'm wrong, then simply tell me, by all means highlight areas, but do not change the quote.

Ardemax
22-09-2009, 03:19 PM
Thanks for the post Sarc :)


ok virtual here we go

the bible was not made over 7000 years ago, im pretty sure it was 1-2500 years before the birth of Christ

Black_Apalachi
22-09-2009, 05:52 PM
this debate is turning into an arguement

you're not respecting my opinions in anyway shape or form.

if i believe in something, you can't say it's not real?
give me one scientific evidence that God doesn't exist. and none of this "matter" stuff, cos' that's a load of **.

The only thing I am not respecting is the claim that the Bible proves God's existence. That's not an opinion, it's just a false claim. I could say something stupid like; 'the world is flat' for instance, and I hardly imagine you or anyone else would accept that as my opinion.

I'm not trying to extinguish your opinion of God's existence, it was just the statement you made in relation to it.

As for the age of the Bible, I'm mixed up now as to who first claimed it was 7000 years old but my comments regarding this were aimed at whoever that was.

Ardemax
22-09-2009, 06:27 PM
virtualg claimed 7000 years old i believe

VirtualG
22-09-2009, 09:51 PM
Ok, I feel like joining in this debate.

Lets start of by saying;

"PROOF" is irrelevent, God can NOT be proven/does NOT want to be prooven/will NOT be prooven. So if you are asking for proof you are looking in the wrong place. If god gives ANY proof it takes away free will. Anyone who has a little brains will understand this. This is clearly conveyed through out the bible.
There was a collection of scriptures which were that of Christian-Jewish beliefs that were all compiled into about 45-50 different stories and prohcies, before the time of even that of moses. There was another one very similiar found in Alexandria, Egypt. These were both put togther, along with many other scriptures to form the old testament, which was then formed with other parts such as the new testament to form another bible.

Thanks for the post Sarc :)


ok virtual here we go

the bible was not made over 7000 years ago, im pretty sure it was 1-2500 years before the birth of Christ
You are refering to the generation of bible (thats the only way I can think of to describe it) before the current one, which was the Jewish bible, but there was one, two or even three more generations before that that have been found that could be dated back over 7000 years.

Ardemax
23-09-2009, 04:26 PM
the current bible does not date 7000 years ago

VirtualG
24-09-2009, 08:01 AM
the current bible does not date 7000 years ago
It does. Large proportions of the old testament at least. It's like your building a castle and a 100 years later you want to improve on it and you double or triple or x10 it's size, does it no longer date back 100 years? Although you are getting off topic, I used it in my post, dont use it to create another thread or prove that god exists or doesn't exist, You must be one of the only christians still posting in this thread Ardemax, shows how much the rest "believe"

Ardemax
24-09-2009, 03:16 PM
It does. Large proportions of the old testament at least. It's like your building a castle and a 100 years later you want to improve on it and you double or triple or x10 it's size, does it no longer date back 100 years? Although you are getting off topic, I used it in my post, dont use it to create another thread or prove that god exists or doesn't exist, You must be one of the only christians still posting in this thread Ardemax, shows how much the rest "believe"


and suddenly there has to be Christians on habboxforum

-rep for ignorance tbh

jackass
24-09-2009, 03:42 PM
It does. Large proportions of the old testament at least. It's like your building a castle and a 100 years later you want to improve on it and you double or triple or x10 it's size, does it no longer date back 100 years? Although you are getting off topic, I used it in my post, dont use it to create another thread or prove that god exists or doesn't exist, You must be one of the only christians still posting in this thread Ardemax, shows how much the rest "believe"

No, i'm also a Christian, so stop with the ignorance.

VirtualG
25-09-2009, 06:48 AM
No, i'm also a Christian, so stop with the ignorance.
I did say one of the only, thats not ignorant, so far theres only two that have voiced themselves.

jackass
25-09-2009, 02:55 PM
I did say one of the only, thats not ignorant, so far theres only two that have voiced themselves.

Then I think you need to read this thread from page one.

Ardemax
25-09-2009, 05:04 PM
I did say one of the only, thats not ignorant, so far theres only two that have voiced themselves.


agrees with biohazard

you're just proving yourself more ignorant

edit: thanks for my revenge rep you ignorant ***

Mrak-Face
26-09-2009, 02:12 AM
I actually have the most honest and true answer. "I don't know".

Fact is the only way to know is to die, even then you mightn't find out. People may say that they know God exists but truely, they don't... ironically that's the key point of most religious empires, faith. If you knew there was a God then there would be no faith.

Now this isn't who you think the better James Bond actor is, this is the concept of all life, everything that existed, everything you can love, everything... and to force your view on someone when you don't even know the answer yourself is one of the most selfish things you can do.

There is no way to prove whether a God exists or not... no way whatsoever. Even if we develop a way to accurately show how the entire universe was made it will still not prove the concept...

I'm Agnostic and the only way I can believe in something is to have indisputible proof. I hate that... I wish I could believe in something bigger than me but I can't. If there is a God then I realise I'm going to hell for lack of faith and there's nothing I can do about it.

I do have a question for Christians/Catholics. No, this isn't done in a way to challenge your religon. I'm fascinated by religion and just want to hear other peoples answers.

The concept of God is that he is perfect. If so, why would he create a world... or universe for that matter? What reason of motivation could he possible have for it if he is perfect already? It can't be boredom or curiosity as they are imperfect traits.

God either has a selfish motivation for creation, in which he is not perfect in terms of personality or he has an unselfish reason, in which he is imperfect in terms of power. How can a perfect God exist?

I will +rep all honest and legitimate answers... I'm not trying to get you to prove me wrong, I just want your thoughts.

Ardemax
26-09-2009, 08:48 AM
so Mrak your question is why did God create the universe and world?

or are you trying to ask something else?

VirtualG
03-10-2009, 02:45 AM
agrees with biohazard

you're just proving yourself more ignorant

edit: thanks for my revenge rep you ignorant ***
No problem, i think it was ignorant of you in the first place. What are you trying to prove, that it was predominately christian to start off with. With in the last x amount of pages theres only been 2 (I think, maybe 3) christians that have been posting, thats what I said, this post is also saying, dont get off topic.

Ardemax
03-10-2009, 08:10 AM
No problem, i think it was ignorant of you in the first place. What are you trying to prove, that it was predominately christian to start off with. With in the last x amount of pages theres only been 2 (I think, maybe 3) christians that have been posting, thats what I said, this post is also saying, dont get off topic.


there's been more
read them
dont get off topic? let's see who's getting off topic :S

nemesis9k
10-10-2009, 03:46 PM
For me not believing in god is like not believing in oxygen. Just because you cannot see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Although god hasn't been proven doesnt mean anything because scientists still in the grand scheme of things no nothing. To me though god is proven through the beauty of nature.

Captainace$
02-11-2009, 09:20 PM
No one knows really, Some say he is, Some say he isn't. Its up to every person to decide for themselves I think.

Ardemax
02-11-2009, 09:29 PM
No one knows really, Some say he is, Some say he isn't. Its up to every person to decide for themselves I think.

tis hardly answering the question of do you think God exits?

Captainace$
02-11-2009, 09:53 PM
It is answering, I am not a belieaver, Nor a disbelieaver. That is what I meant by my post.

Black_Apalachi
02-11-2009, 11:57 PM
srsly, God doesn't exist. trust

staypositive
03-11-2009, 12:24 AM
No he does not.

/thread.

Ardemax
03-11-2009, 06:44 AM
ye cos that will win a debate.....................................

FlyingJesus
03-11-2009, 12:21 PM
I'm Agnostic and the only way I can believe in something is to have indisputible proof. I hate that... I wish I could believe in something bigger than me but I can't. If there is a God then I realise I'm going to hell for lack of faith and there's nothing I can do about it.

I'm exactly the same, I really would love to be a believer and I sometimes even go along to church with some of my Christian friends because it's such a peaceful and happy atmosphere but I can't make myself believe in what they're saying


I do have a question for Christians/Catholics. No, this isn't done in a way to challenge your religon. I'm fascinated by religion and just want to hear other peoples answers.

The concept of God is that he is perfect. If so, why would he create a world... or universe for that matter? What reason of motivation could he possible have for it if he is perfect already? It can't be boredom or curiosity as they are imperfect traits.

God either has a selfish motivation for creation, in which he is not perfect in terms of personality or he has an unselfish reason, in which he is imperfect in terms of power. How can a perfect God exist?

I will +rep all honest and legitimate answers... I'm not trying to get you to prove me wrong, I just want your thoughts.

Personally I think the whole view of God is skewed even by (perhaps even more so by) the Christian community. There is not one single passage in the Bible that states Him as being omnipotent yet this is an accepted belief. The church denies all other gods (note lower case g :P) yet the Bible introduces at least one such being, just as one of a far lower power than Jehovah. In the same way I think the idea of God as perfect is purely from a worship standpoint, ie: flattery and embellishment as with the kings of older cultures.

I'm not attacking Christianity here at all, I just think that it's not practised or even read properly for a large part


srsly, God doesn't exist. trust


No he does not.

/thread.

Good debate gg on the ignorance

Black_Apalachi
03-11-2009, 01:37 PM
I'm exactly the same, I really would love to be a believer and I sometimes even go along to church with some of my Christian friends because it's such a peaceful and happy atmosphere but I can't make myself believe in what they're saying



Personally I think the whole view of God is skewed even by (perhaps even more so by) the Christian community. There is not one single passage in the Bible that states Him as being omnipotent yet this is an accepted belief. The church denies all other gods (note lower case g :P) yet the Bible introduces at least one such being, just as one of a far lower power than Jehovah. In the same way I think the idea of God as perfect is purely from a worship standpoint, ie: flattery and embellishment as with the kings of older cultures.

I'm not attacking Christianity here at all, I just think that it's not practised or even read properly for a large part





Good debate gg on the ignorance

I've already debated in this thread.

Ontario
03-11-2009, 02:36 PM
These threads have never achieved anything but arguments and ignorance.

FlyingJesus
03-11-2009, 03:09 PM
Your debate was based purely on belief though, so you shouldn't later be stating what you think as fact as you did. Also..


For starters, how can you take any book seriously that has had countless authors contributing to it and has been translated and manipulated even more times over thousands of years? I think it would take a very naive person to do that.

Not a fan of encyclopaedias, cultural archives and dictionaries then isit lol

Ardemax
03-11-2009, 04:17 PM
oh yeah forget about that quote there rob... are you calling around 2.1 billion people in this world "naive"?

Agnostic Bear
03-11-2009, 06:10 PM
Strong agnosticism is the way forward and anyone who says otherwise is silly.

Black_Apalachi
03-11-2009, 08:03 PM
Your debate was based purely on belief though, so you shouldn't later be stating what you think as fact as you did. Also..



Not a fan of encyclopaedias, cultural archives and dictionaries then isit lol

As those books consist of FACTS, you just completely failed to put forward a valid argument.


oh yeah forget about that quote there rob... are you calling around 2.1 billion people in this world "naive"?

Oh yeah, just because a large amount of people do/say/believe something, that makes it right (Y) Do I need to remind you of a certain government that managed to brainwash the majority of its country's population into eradicating a whole sect of men, women and children?

Ardemax
03-11-2009, 08:13 PM
As those books consist of FACTS, you just completely failed to put forward a valid argument.



Oh yeah, just because a large amount of people do/say/believe something, that makes it right (Y) Do I need to remind you of a certain government that managed to brainwash the majority of its country's population into eradicating a whole sect of men, women and children?

not that I am, but the people who you call naive, they too have a reason to call you naive then?

Black_Apalachi
03-11-2009, 08:45 PM
not that I am, but the people who you call naive, they too have a reason to call you naive then?

Yes, but the difference would be that I didn't make a rash claim, instead I backed it up with a valid point.

Ardemax
03-11-2009, 08:55 PM
Yes, but the difference would be that I didn't make a rash claim, instead I backed it up with a valid point.

and my point is the same as yours...

just because a large amount of people believe something doesn't mean it's true/right

you're an atheist (i pressume.. correct if wrong) thus not believing in God aswell as lots of other people :)

Teabags
03-11-2009, 10:10 PM
I think that people look towards a greater power or god for comfort to scapegoat the inexplicable.

I think that as elements cannot be created or destroyed that they were always in exsistance and that our universe is in a black hole which explains it evergrowing and eventually in time it will create another big bang, erasing all exisistance before simply restarting the same process.

Orangeesh
03-11-2009, 10:50 PM
no i dont and never will.

Black_Apalachi
03-11-2009, 11:23 PM
and my point is the same as yours...

just because a large amount of people believe something doesn't mean it's true/right

you're an atheist (i pressume.. correct if wrong) thus not believing in God aswell as lots of other people :)

Yep I'm an atheist, but I don't see how your point is the same as mine; I'm not an atheist just because there are a large amount of atheists. I was a catholic until I was about 16 due to my upbringing, and that was only because of my parents' upbringing. I started becoming an atheist over a period of about 2 years. At first I still hoped there was a god even though I really didn't think there was. It's only really recently I've stopped even hoping because I just know there isn't. Yes I know I don't have proof therefore I can't claim to "know" it, but it's just how I feel.

Basically this decision is based on my own logic after considering the "evidence" put before me and to revert back to my original quote, the Bible is not sufficient evidence for me, nor would I imagine it to be for anyone else with a bit of common sense.

Eoin
03-11-2009, 11:38 PM
Sometimes I ask myself if God will ever forgive us for what we've done to each other. Then I realize, God left this place a long time ago.

Black_Apalachi
04-11-2009, 12:09 AM
Sometimes I ask myself if God will ever forgive us for what we've done to each other. Then I realize, God left this place a long time ago.

If that's a serious comment, it's the first time I've ever thought of the possibility that there was once a god who is no longer there. Interesting thought.

Ardemax
04-11-2009, 06:57 AM
what evidence can prove that God doesn't exist? There isn't any rock solid so it's complete belief, or not.

Black_Apalachi
04-11-2009, 12:38 PM
what evidence can prove that God doesn't exist? There isn't any rock solid so it's complete belief, or not.

Hence why I said I know I don't have evidence, it's just how I feel. Besides, there's no rock solid evidence fairies don't exist.

Ardemax
04-11-2009, 04:13 PM
Hence why I said I know I don't have evidence, it's just how I feel. Besides, there's no rock solid evidence fairies don't exist.

erm how do i answer that lol?

i dunno but i reckon God and fairies have more than a few differences

Black_Apalachi
04-11-2009, 04:33 PM
erm how do i answer that lol?

i dunno but i reckon God and fairies have more than a few differences

It wasn't a question, but I meant that there's as much evidence fairies exist as there is that God exists. In fact, there are photos of what are supposedly fairies :).

Ardemax
04-11-2009, 07:09 PM
It wasn't a question, but I meant that there's as much evidence fairies exist as there is that God exists. In fact, there are photos of what are supposedly fairies :).

I think that's a bit.. miff. "there's as much evidence fairies exist as there is that God exists."
Last time I checked fairies don't have a Holy book, a religion and billions of followers. ;)

Dusty-09
05-11-2009, 04:15 PM
Its just the fact that how complex everything is, just the human organism is so complex that science alone couldn't have made it.

And if someone could answer this, if evolution is the true way we were created, why haven't we evolved since? Why are we the same human person for more than 3000 years?

But think about it I've learnt from my science teacher who is a biologist who said that if you stretch everything from the human body into a line it could go around the world or something similar, how can that be if science created us?

If you believe in Science, wasn't there a time when the world was believed to be flat? God is the one belief which has survived thousands of years, I don't think any other belief has.

I respect peoples decisions if they don't believe in God but I think that there is sufficient evidence that God exists.

I also welcome the fact that I may be wrong because we can never tell until we die...

Cheryl
05-11-2009, 07:03 PM
Well personally I don't think he does, I don't really care waht other people think, they are entitled to freedom of speech.

Smits
05-11-2009, 07:21 PM
I think that's a bit.. miff. "there's as much evidence fairies exist as there is that God exists."
Last time I checked fairies don't have a Holy book, a religion and billions of followers. ;)

That isn't evidence. There are millions and millions of kids who believe in fairies, doesn't mean theyre real just because people believe. There are also HUNDREDS of books on fairies...



Its just the fact that how complex everything is, just the human organism is so complex that science alone couldn't have made it.

And if someone could answer this, if evolution is the true way we were created, why haven't we evolved since? Why are we the same human person for more than 3000 years?

But think about it I've learnt from my science teacher who is a biologist who said that if you stretch everything from the human body into a line it could go around the world or something similar, how can that be if science created us?

If you believe in Science, wasn't there a time when the world was believed to be flat? God is the one belief which has survived thousands of years, I don't think any other belief has.

I respect peoples decisions if they don't believe in God but I think that there is sufficient evidence that God exists.

I also welcome the fact that I may be wrong because we can never tell until we die...

The belief has only survived because of human nature. People naturally want to avoid fear, god avoids the fear of death..

And what do you mean how can that be? Ever heard of evolution? There is FAR more evidence of this than of any 'god'

Also, if you didnt know, Evolution is an extremely slow process, it takes millions of years, not thousands. And why would we evolve? We don't need to, we are surviving perfectly well, in fact, we're doing better than ever before. Theres no need to change what doesnt need fixing. Not to mention the fact that Hospitals and Modern practices mean that people no longer die from some diseases or illness, this means that people who would have died are passing on their bad quality through genetics. ( NOT SAYING PEOPLE WHO HAVE DISSABILITIES< DISEASES AND ILLNESS SHOULD BE LEFT TO DIE OFF THO)

jackass
05-11-2009, 08:35 PM
That isn't evidence. There are millions and millions of kids who believe in fairies, doesn't mean theyre real just because people believe. There are also HUNDREDS of books on fairies...

Kids area bitdifferent to adults. Millions of adults beleive in God and religion. Millions of kids might believe in fairies, but that's obvious - they're kids.

And I think a book on fairies is just a bit different to a very old book of God.

FlyingJesus
05-11-2009, 10:22 PM
As those books consist of FACTS, you just completely failed to put forward a valid argument.

No I didn't - you claimed that a book made over hundreds of years with different authors can't be trusted. You never said "unless it's proven fact" so therefore your earlier statement wasn't at all right


Yes, but the difference would be that I didn't make a rash claim

srsly, God doesn't exist. trust

Oh yeah no rash claims


Its just the fact that how complex everything is, just the human organism is so complex that science alone couldn't have made it.

Technically science has had infinite time for such a probability to actually come around, there's time periods we simlpy cannot fathom in which it's quite likely nothing much at all was happening until chance made it


And if someone could answer this, if evolution is the true way we were created, why haven't we evolved since? Why are we the same human person for more than 3000 years?

No need really. Evolution only happens if there's something needed to survive, and we are kind of evolving in some ways - humans are generally taller now than a few centuries or millennia back for one thing


But think about it I've learnt from my science teacher who is a biologist who said that if you stretch everything from the human body into a line it could go around the world or something similar, how can that be if science created us?

Not sure what you mean on that one, there are plenty of really long things coiled up into small spaces

Ontario
05-11-2009, 10:40 PM
Ok i'm a born again Christian. I believe God does exist and have seen and experienced things that couldn't make me think different.

I'm no Bible scholar so please don't throw verses from the Bible at me and then expect to me argue the toss over the meaning and context they are written in.

In all honesty I have only seen the tip of the Ice Berg with God, and all I know that from the parts of the Bible I have read.
God is something we are not made to fully understand.

FlyingJesus
05-11-2009, 11:12 PM
To be fair if you're gonna be a Christian you really should make a study of the Bible, otherwise how are you to know what it is you need to do in order to live out God's will?

Ontario
05-11-2009, 11:14 PM
To be fair if you're gonna be a Christian you really should make a study of the Bible, otherwise how are you to know what it is you need to do in order to live out God's will?

Well i have only been a Christian for about a year:)
But I'm reading the entire Bible in a year at the moment.

Black_Apalachi
06-11-2009, 01:09 AM
I think that's a bit.. miff. "there's as much evidence fairies exist as there is that God exists."
Last time I checked fairies don't have a Holy book, a religion and billions of followers. ;)


That isn't evidence. There are millions and millions of kids who believe in fairies, doesn't mean theyre real just because people believe. There are also HUNDREDS of books on fairies...

Exactly, there are even adults who believe that fairies exist. Ardemax you're still basing your argument on the point that lots of people follow it, therefore it must be true. You couldn't be more naive to live your life with this ideology.

As a side note, anyone could go out and create a religion based on fairies and create a holy book. Look at Scientology for example.


No I didn't - you claimed that a book made over hundreds of years with different authors can't be trusted. You never said "unless it's proven fact" so therefore your earlier statement wasn't at all right ...

Oh, you couldn't work that little deatil out for yourself? Sorry, my bad :rolleyes:.


... Oh yeah no rash claims ...

Yeah, I was a bit gutted that my earlier constructive post went overlooked so I just made that post in a less serious manner :P.


... God is something we are not made to fully understand.

When anyone denies the existence of God, Christians demand proof for how they know this. Then they come out with things like that.

Ardemax
06-11-2009, 06:46 AM
Exactly, there are even adults who believe that fairies exist. Ardemax you're still basing your argument on the point that lots of people follow it, therefore it must be true. You couldn't be more naive to live your life with this ideology.

As a side note, anyone could go out and create a religion based on fairies and create a holy book. Look at Scientology for example.

that would explain why every post of mine is about people following it? no.

i still can't believe you linked God with fairies either, saying there's as much evidence.

FlyingJesus
06-11-2009, 12:23 PM
Well technically faeries come from pagan religions that were around in Britain long before the Christians took over, and appear in some form in a lot of religions (whether as goodly being of nature or as devils).

Someone a page or two back mentioned a god that no longer exists, which is an interesting idea and one that I've looked across many many times (I make a lot of personal study on theology) but should perhaps be made in a new thread "Is there a god?" with a lower case g. Can't remember if I've said it already in this thread but where people say God as a pronoun like that I think for the sake of the argument it should be assumed that we're talking about the Jewish/Christian/Muslim deity. If you want to go into gods of other religions and theoretical gods that's an extremely interesting discussion but an entirely different one unfortunately :P

Ardemax
06-11-2009, 05:05 PM
well if the question was is there a god then i think the same answers may arise

Black_Apalachi
06-11-2009, 07:18 PM
that would explain why every post of mine is about people following it? no.

i still can't believe you linked God with fairies either, saying there's as much evidence.

Fairies is just what I randomly chose. I could have as easily picked Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny or the Loch Ness Monster. Fairies is probably a stronger argument of the bunch though.

And I said there's as much evidence because there is. There's a film based on a true story about some kids who claimed to see fairies at the bottom of their garden and took pictures of them (whether the pictures turned out to be hoaxes is another story). The point is that the Bible is a man-made book. Before I even go into the reliability it holds as a source of any information, the fact alone that it is man-made can not prove the existence of a greater being.

You do realise this is all coming from someone who strongly believed in God for a good 15 years or so. I used to actually feel sorry for people who didn't believe, now it's the complete opposite! :P


Well technically faeries come from pagan religions that were around in Britain long before the Christians took over, and appear in some form in a lot of religions (whether as goodly being of nature or as devils).

Someone a page or two back mentioned a god that no longer exists, which is an interesting idea and one that I've looked across many many times (I make a lot of personal study on theology) but should perhaps be made in a new thread "Is there a god?" with a lower case g. Can't remember if I've said it already in this thread but where people say God as a pronoun like that I think for the sake of the argument it should be assumed that we're talking about the Jewish/Christian/Muslim deity. If you want to go into gods of other religions and theoretical gods that's an extremely interesting discussion but an entirely different one unfortunately :P

I'm glad someone understands that concept!

Ardemax
07-11-2009, 10:01 AM
Yes Rob, but mind you you're saying that all God-based religions aren't real? As in their God is a fake.

I'm not trying to change your opinion here, but some people really do believe that God is helping them through things, I just don't know if atheists would understand though.

Wig44.
13-11-2009, 11:04 PM
Whether or not god exists, I still believe in Karl Marx: "religion is the opiate of the people"

Black_Apalachi
14-11-2009, 01:43 AM
Yes Rob, but mind you you're saying that all God-based religions aren't real? As in their God is a fake.

I'm not trying to change your opinion here, but some people really do believe that God is helping them through things, I just don't know if atheists would understand though.

Isn't the whole point of the thread to discuss that point? :P

Of course I understand. Like I said I was brought up catholic, went to mass once a week until I went to uni, made my first forgiveness, holy communion and confirmation and my mum still goes to mass every week. She believes God helps her through things all the time. In fact it kills me to know I am disappointing her by turning my back on it. But if I just went to mass anyway and pretended to believe, I can't see that being a positive approach really. I guess it reverts back to what I said about just knowing inside me that God doesn't exist. I'll also repeat that I obviously understand this isn't a valid argument but it's just my personal feelings. I guess others just need to accept this as I should accept their beliefs respectively.

Ardemax
14-11-2009, 11:48 AM
yeah i mean im not trying to say you should go back if you don't believe, but there's some good youth clubs you can try to go to that are run by the church. just an idea lol

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