Radio License

[AgnesIO]

looks interesting!

Cant we try and talk to habbo, and just ask to sell VIP for a bit to make the funds :D

Lol at the bit about £200 for just 10 listeners an hour.. :P

Thoughts?

[Jordy]

It could run into many thousands and even then VIP wouldn't rescue it.

I've probably over-looked something but the PPL only applies in the UK I thought? The site owner lives outside the UK, the site is hosted in the USA and it's a universal domain name so I can't see how anyone could prosecute.

[AgnesIO]

It could run into many thousands and even then VIP wouldn't rescue it.

I've probably over-looked something but the PPL only applies in the UK I thought? The site owner lives outside the UK, the site is hosted in the USA and it's a universal domain name so I can't see how anyone could prosecute.


You are half correct!

On the PPL website they do not have every country signed up to it.

Countrys not listed (Some of them)

Switzeland
USA

Then you could try places like Andorra and Koria :D

[Antony]

Habbo radios have been going for a long time, so why now are people getting involved with licensing etc?

Habbo seem to be doing a lot at the moment to put fan sites down, removing vip etc, and now this? How do they think teenagers who are running websites, advertising their brand, are going to afford such amounts? It's ridiculous.

[AgnesIO]

Habbo radios have been going for a long time, so why now are people getting involved with licensing etc?

Habbo seem to be doing a lot at the moment to put fan sites down, removing vip etc, and now this? How do they think teenagers who are running websites, advertising their brand, are going to afford such amounts? It's ridiculous.


It would appear sulake are not behind this.

However I would love to know why we are being attacked now.

[Hayd93]

It could run into many thousands and even then VIP wouldn't rescue it.

I've probably over-looked something but the PPL only applies in the UK I thought? The site owner lives outside the UK, the site is hosted in the USA and it's a universal domain name so I can't see how anyone could prosecute.

PPL though is who you broadcast to and who is the broadcaster. Now the thing is the main target is UK listeners and also 80 - 90% of habbox DJ's are from UK.

This is why some sites you will see restrict access for UK citizens so that they dont have to pay this.

[Sameer!]

PPL though is who you broadcast to and who is the broadcaster. Now the thing is the main target is UK listeners and also 80 - 90% of habbox DJ's are from UK.

This is why some sites you will see restrict access for UK citizens so that they dont have to pay this.

Hayd has got a point there. Most people in the Habbox community are British and preety much most of the DJs are aswell... I don't think they can prosecute...

[Agnostic Bear]

PPL are idiots and should do their research, server is in the us costs don't apply.

[AgnesIO]

PPL are idiots and should do their research, server is in the us costs don't apply.


Agreed.

Alhough i originally thought you were saying 'people are idiots' as is users ion here LOL :D

[Bass]

I agree with this, if the site is hosted outside of the UK, even if Habbox is a UK Offical site, they shouldn't have to pay the cost if the site is hosted outside the UK.

I don't know why these people have decided to get involved now after god knows how long Habbo Radio's have been running!!

[Antony]

It would appear sulake are not behind this.

However I would love to know why we are being attacked now.

Regardless if Sulake are behind it or not, what I was saying was, why now? Habbo has been running for coming up to 10 years, which is how long fansites have been going for.

When I used to play Habbo back in 04 / 05 / 06 - HabboHut was owned and ran by Sulake Staff - I believe the site was ran on servers paid for by Sulake too? If that's the case, surely they should know something about licencing, or have they done what other people have been saying, and been exempt from it due to being hosted in the USA? :rolleyes:

It's extremely silly.

[Judge Judy]

Even if the servers are hosted in the US I'm sure you have to pay for a license there also.

[AgnesIO]

Regardless if Sulake are behind it or not, what I was saying was, why now? Habbo has been running for coming up to 10 years, which is how long fansites have been going for.

When I used to play Habbo back in 04 / 05 / 06 - HabboHut was owned and ran by Sulake Staff - I believe the site was ran on servers paid for by Sulake too? If that's the case, surely they should know something about licencing, or have they done what other people have been saying, and been exempt from it due to being hosted in the USA? :rolleyes:

It's extremely silly.

Sulake have though about getting music in rooms instead of trax.

This means having radios will stop people,purchasing asongs.

[FlyingJesus]

Just out of interest, is the fee a one-off thing or an annual fee? Makes very little difference to me but would like to know how much we're likely to extorted for :P

In terms of "foreign server, no fees" I'm fairly sure that would mean no UK access, which cuts down on DJs and listeners by a pretty chunky majority.

To my eyes the bigger issue is actually DJs using illegally acquired tracks - the amount in fines that either they or Habbox would be liable to (not sure who'd bear the brunt of that one) if caught far exceeds £200 I'm sure.

[Jordy]

Just out of interest, is the fee a one-off thing or an annual fee? Makes very little difference to me but would like to know how much we're likely to extorted for :P

In terms of "foreign server, no fees" I'm fairly sure that would mean no UK access, which cuts down on DJs and listeners by a pretty chunky majority.

To my eyes the bigger issue is actually DJs using illegally acquired tracks - the amount in fines that either they or Habbox would be liable to (not sure who'd bear the brunt of that one) if caught far exceeds £200 I'm sure.Very true but like you said, with out UK listeners and DJs the radio isn't much. With out illegally acquired tracks I think that the radio might not be much once again.

Illegal downloading DJs should be dealt with the usual way illegal downloaders are.

[no waiii]

Just out of interest, is the fee a one-off thing or an annual fee? Makes very little difference to me but would like to know how much we're likely to extorted for :P

In terms of "foreign server, no fees" I'm fairly sure that would mean no UK access, which cuts down on DJs and listeners by a pretty chunky majority.

To my eyes the bigger issue is actually DJs using illegally acquired tracks - the amount in fines that either they or Habbox would be liable to (not sure who'd bear the brunt of that one) if caught far exceeds £200 I'm sure.

I think its an annual fee :(

[Crolons]

It's nothing to do with Habbo, however the donations system is set up, so there we go :).

[GommeInc]

I'm amazed they've started tackling this issue. In the UK, radios do have to pay for licenses. I think Habbox deserve a reward for going license free for so long to be honest :P

Also, isn't the radio hosted on a server which isn't in the UK? Although I guess that isn't enough to make it a non-UK internet radio... Is there even away around this without paying loads, even though you should? It does seem like a shame to close down the radio station, even though Habbo are not behind it for a change.

[Favourtism]

I always assumed Habbox payed some sort of license lmao. If 200.00 is 10 listeners then why have people like HFFM said they only need 200.00 :S. I know they dont get as much listeners as Habbox but it's sometimes in the hundreds?

[Tim.]

It would appear sulake are not behind this.

However I would love to know why we are being attacked now.


I think you may find habbo are infact doing its fansites a favour, If PPL has got fansites on the radar, habbo will have most likely warned them/told them that this is the problem, and persuaded ppl to let them deal with it.

Or

Habbo could be getting a cut from the licensing fees

[Jongo]

I'm wondering this... did PPL actually contact Sulake to raise awareness of this issue? Or was it the case Sulake went hunting for another element of control to bring down the batch of Habbo fansites? I'm sure Habbo USA have their own radio? Perhaps they want to implement one on the UK website and this is their way of getting the brand out. Because quite frankly give me one to reason to why VIP was removed from fansites? It broke no laws, do Sulake see it as a threat towards their income or something? I'm totally confused.

[leah]

PPL are idiots and should do their research, server is in the us costs don't apply.
I hope he's right.
I don't see how it should matter if DJs are from the UK and listeners are, it still doesn't effect where the hosting is.

[GommeInc]

Because quite frankly give me one to reason to why VIP was removed from fansites? It broke no laws, do Sulake see it as a threat towards their income or something? I'm totally confused.
Hopefully not that reason, if they think fansite VIP was cutting into the amount of profit they were making, then they're a rediculously bad company, because they have no evidence to back up such claims.

Either way you look at this licensing issue though, Habbo do seem to of done fansites a favour. Instead of the licensing organisation attacking individual fansites with fines and closuers, they got in contact with Habbo/Sulake to send out warning notices. Whoever said Habbo will be getting a cut of licensing fees really needs to get his head out of the clouds with such accusations, there is no evidence os these fees being split and if they were to be split with the organisation and Sulake, then the fees would be considerably larger to accomodate such an idea. Not forgetting that no fansite will pay that much and be around for much longer :P


I hope he's right.
I don't see how it should matter if DJs are from the UK and listeners are, it still doesn't effect where the hosting is.
Indeed, unless they want to go through the hassle of finding out where the music came from :P

[leah]

I bet that they're only doing this cos they're company is going bust or something, animals.

[Nick.]

Or Habbo contacted PPL about the issue because they are slowly trying to cut all fansites out and make everything more Habbo central. They want everyone to use the whole Habbo social side now. Habbo is becoming more social networky, and let's face it you don't get MySpace fansites do you? They want everyone to sue Habbo and only Habbo.

Sulake is behind this. I'm sure of it.

[Sammeth.]

While Habbo were looking into their own way of having music on the hotel they were probably requesting information from PPL and then PPL looked into Habbo, looked on the site and saw fansites that had radios. That's how I think this happened anyway :P I don't think Sulake would purposely do this, at least I dont think the UK Office Staff would want it to happen. Lost_Witness tuned into a few shows on HxL today which was nice of him :8

[Moh]

Or Habbo contacted PPL about the issue because they are slowly trying to cut all fansites out and make everything more Habbo central. They want everyone to use the whole Habbo social side now. Habbo is becoming more social networky, and let's face it you don't get MySpace fansites do you? They want everyone to sue Habbo and only Habbo.

Sulake is behind this. I'm sure of it.
I agree.

The Sulake offices are only 2 miles away. Lost_Witness could walk there in 30 mins :P

[Neversoft]

Can I ask why everyone on the forum was forced to read the radio license thread? Over half of the people here don't listen to HabboxLive, so it's of no interest to us. Were we directed to the thread so we'd be reminded to vote Habbox in the HabboHut awards? That's pretty crafty of you.

[HighFlight]

It could run into many thousands and even then VIP wouldn't rescue it.

I've probably over-looked something but the PPL only applies in the UK I thought? The site owner lives outside the UK, the site is hosted in the USA and it's a universal domain name so I can't see how anyone could prosecute.
If the radio is being broadcasted from any country in the world but it being received in the UK they require a license.

[efq]

If the radio is being broadcasted from any country in the world but it being received in the UK they require a license.
Yeah exactly, there is no way at all for people in the UK or any country that signed up to the PPL contracts to listen to Habbox (In the case they didn't have to pay because its the US). PPL arn't going to bend the rules for a Habbo Fansite either.
And it has been said most if not all DJs would have played a illegally downloaded track on the radio and if it was investigated would leave you and possible Habbox in a bigger payment lol.

[Jordan3606]

Radio licences are the reason why I didnt set up my own online radio station about a year ago now... I bought the shoutcast server (or rented it, whatever lol) and then did the research into the whole licenses thing and the whole area is very sketchy, you need a license to broadcast which can run into hundreds of pounds alone and then on top of that (if I remember correctly) you need to pay royalties on all the songs you play. But this does depend on the server location, your location, your listeners location etc. etc. Thats when I gave up and got a refund, haha. It was way over complicated and if things are to be done legally, the costs were very high. I'm suprised all these Habbo stations have lasted so long without running into legal trouble.

[HighFlight]

Yeah exactly, there is no way at all for people in the UK or any country that signed up to the PPL contracts to listen to Habbox (In the case they didn't have to pay because its the US). PPL arn't going to bend the rules for a Habbo Fansite either.
And it has been said most if not all DJs would have played a illegally downloaded track on the radio and if it was investigated would leave you and possible Habbox in a bigger payment lol.
The DJ's/listeners don't pay the stream owner does.

[nvrspk4]

Can I ask why everyone on the forum was forced to read the radio license thread? Over half of the people here don't listen to HabboxLive, so it's of no interest to us. Were we directed to the thread so we'd be reminded to vote Habbox in the HabboHut awards? That's pretty crafty of you.

There were a lot of rumors, speculation, and questions. To prevent 200 people from being linked to the thread we forced it. If you didn't care you could switch off but it did apply to the continuity of one very important part of Habbox, and I do truly apologize for the seconds wasted but we thought a large portion of people would like to know :)

The "we're not in the UK" business has been attempted but our "legal team" doesn't think it will work, but it has a shot. Since the bulk of our users are British that may qualify us as broadcasting in Britain. But as I pointed out we make no money off the listeners really (well ok there are ads but if we move it to an ad-free habboxlive.com).

[efq]

The DJ's/listeners don't pay the stream owner does.
No but they are responsible of who streams on their shoutcast therefore Habbox are responsible for what goes on air.

[Moh]

No but they are responsible of who streams on their shoutcast therefore Habbox are responsible for what goes on air.
What if HxL add a Terms of Use?
So if they want to be a DJ, they have accept stating there music is legal..

[nvrspk4]

What if HxL add a Terms of Use?
So if they want to be a DJ, they have accept stating there music is legal..

They do, any DJ that plays illegal music gets in trouble.

[Knuxxy]

There were a lot of rumors, speculation, and questions. To prevent 200 people from being linked to the thread we forced it. If you didn't care you could switch off but it did apply to the continuity of one very important part of Habbox, and I do truly apologize for the seconds wasted but we thought a large portion of people would like to know :)

The "we're not in the UK" business has been attempted but our "legal team" doesn't think it will work, but it has a shot. Since the bulk of our users are British that may qualify us as broadcasting in Britain. But as I pointed out we make no money off the listeners really (well ok there are ads but if we move it to an ad-free habboxlive.com).

Im thinking about opening a fansite with a radio, so can you try this theory and get back to us. kfnxbai. :)

[HighFlight]

After the license has been sorted you should get a receipt of all of your DJ's music purchase, because I'm betting most of the DJ's just d/l the music fro iwantmusik or limewire.

[GommeInc]

Or Habbo contacted PPL about the issue because they are slowly trying to cut all fansites out and make everything more Habbo central. They want everyone to use the whole Habbo social side now. Habbo is becoming more social networky, and let's face it you don't get MySpace fansites do you? They want everyone to sue Habbo and only Habbo.

Sulake is behind this. I'm sure of it.
Ha, if they are Habbos plans, then good luck, Habbo is more of a game than a social networking site and because they are selling a product that has interesting features (like furniture etc), they'll always have fansites just to list these features. No-one is going to use Habbo as their primary social network site, not when there is little to socialise about and features to socialise through (their wall features suck and they won't allow photos to be uploaded), especially with their negative, anti-social behaviour :P They can't compete with Myspace or Facebook, they allow freedom of language (swearing, e-language etc), photos and blogs. Something Habbo won't ever allow, as it goes against so many policies and rules they themselves built.

If Habbo focus on the social networking side, they won't last. Habbo is a game to people, nothing to be taken seriously (unless lots of money has been spent on it, but that's not too serious anyway).

[efq]

They do, any DJ that plays illegal music gets in trouble.
How will you know if a DJ has downloaded or purchased every song they play?
I doubt they'd spend hundreds of pounds for the songs they play but you never know.

[,Jess,]

How will you know if a DJ has downloaded or purchased every song they play?
I doubt they'd spend hundreds of pounds for the songs they play but you never know.

We dont know.

[nvrspk4]

How will you know if a DJ has downloaded or purchased every song they play?
I doubt they'd spend hundreds of pounds for the songs they play but you never know.

We don't ;)

Although if they're dumb and download live recorded songs or songs with voiceovers then we catch them.

[efq]

But what if the record company contacts you regarding a song being played or used on Habbox and then find out it was illegally downloaded and played. They don't have to give you a chance they could instantly take action if they have the given proof before you even know.

Edit to above: I don't hear many live recorded songs, they are downloaded and sound perfect.

[Slowpoke]

Yes but how would the record company prove that the song was illegally downloaded? They can't. It's generally quite obvious though when a song is downloaded illegally because songs that have just been released tend to have a voice over saying something like "music on demand". If they're stupid enough the play it, they'll get in trouble. The odds of a record company official listening to Habbox and bothering to take action against Habbox for someone playing an illegally downloaded song is pretty much none anyway.

Anyway, this is a completely different topic/issue and one that isn't really that important or anywhere near as pressing as the current radio issue. :P

[efq]

Yes but how would the record company prove that the song was illegally downloaded? They can't. It's generally quite obvious though when a song is downloaded illegally because songs that have just been released tend to have a voice over saying something like "music on demand". If they're stupid enough the play it, they'll get in trouble. The odds of a record company official listening to Habbox and bothering to take action against Habbox for someone playing an illegally downloaded song is pretty much none anyway.

Anyway, this is a completely different topic/issue and one that isn't really that important or anywhere near as pressing as the current radio issue. :P
If I was them I'd note the DJs name and time on and contact Habbox asking for that user to provide a reciept or transaction of some sort to prove the legally bought it and if no proof is provided then action taken. Recording Companies are to light these days and if it was my music I wouldn't take a second to contact them and get them in trouble.

[Slowpoke]

But why would a record company waste their time and money listening to a small, online radio for twenty-four hours a day attempting to catch teenagers playing illegally downloaded music?

[efq]

But why would a record company waste their time and money listening to a small, online radio for twenty-four hours a day attempting to catch teenagers playing illegally downloaded music?
Well who are they going to waste their time on?

[Slowpoke]

Sorry, what? :S

[nvrspk4]

But what if the record company contacts you regarding a song being played or used on Habbox and then find out it was illegally downloaded and played. They don't have to give you a chance they could instantly take action if they have the given proof before you even know.

Edit to above: I don't hear many live recorded songs, they are downloaded and sound perfect.

What action, contacting our shoutcast host? Oh that's us :P Our server people would forward them to us first and say to contact them if no action was taken. This isn't a freewebs type deal we work with a serious hosting company. It would then come to us and if they have proof we would take action.


If I was them I'd note the DJs name and time on and contact Habbox asking for that user to provide a reciept or transaction of some sort to prove the legally bought it and if no proof is provided then action taken. Recording Companies are to light these days and if it was my music I wouldn't take a second to contact them and get them in trouble.

Innocent until proven guilty, that's how it always works - if you have an idea that something was downloaded illegally and you have evidence then you can demand a receipt.


Well who are they going to waste their time on?

Illegal downloaders via prosecuting by finding them on Limewire and from their ISPs and that business.

[Sameer!]

You have to say that all of us have once in our lives downloaded a song..

[Suspective]

We all have downloaded a song, this PPL buisness is really ******. ClubHabbo have closed there radio though so I dont care that much!

[leah]

The illegal music thing isn't the issue here, the license is.
So try to keep it on topic please :)

[Hayd93]

The illegal music thing isn't the issue here, the license is.
So try to keep it on topic please :)

The illegal music issue plays a big part in the license. As part of the license the music must be purchased legally. So in actual fact it is part of the license and is actually a very big part of it.

[Grig]

They are going to take this as a serious issue now, do I don't really think that just because in the past they overlooked it or in fact didn't know- they will now! I don't really now how Habbox Live is going to come through, I hope it does- but I cannot fully think of how it'll be. The main problem here is the fact that a lot of the radio revolved around UK djs and listeners. Even if your server is located overseas it may be one of your only legal hopes, because it's a legality issue- there are not many options to hoop through it.

[--ss--]

The PPL licence is useless, it's there to pay royalties to certain record companies (whom you may have not got any material from at all ever) in the UK, it does not cover American record labels.

[timROGERS]

I'm actually very surprised that the multitude of Habbo radios haven't been harassed by PPL and the other licensing authorities before. I would say that it is probably illegal in some way, where it is the listener base of the radio or where the server is hosted. Hopefully Habbox will find some way to continue!

[nvrspk4]

The illegal music issue plays a big part in the license. As part of the license the music must be purchased legally. So in actual fact it is part of the license and is actually a very big part of it.

No, the legality of the music is not the issue in question. The issue in question is that these DJs are buying their music yes but they are rebroadcasting and the PPL wants to cash in on that, the royalties for us rebroadcasting "their" music.

Whether or not legality of music is some clause of their agreement (and I don't doubt they threw in a filler clause) the cost of the license and the reason for the license has nothing, or at least very little to do with illegally downloaded music.

[2hd.]

Having looked at it seems you would need the Small Webcaster Licence as (as far as I know, things may have changed) HxL doesn't generate more than £5000 pre-tax revenue, or, get over 270,000 unique hits to the radio website. The problem is, when you embed the radio in the main site you start taking on Habbox's hits and so if Habbox gets over 270,000 hits and makes at least £5000 from adverts etc., you then qualify for the 'Standard Webcaster Licence' which is £828.25 along with a sneaky £100 administrative charge, which takes you up to just under a grand.

Whether your "legal team" has noticed or not yet, PPL will only cover certain countries, meaning, you can't broadcast to Canada or the USA without buying separate licences from a different copyright holding company.

You also have to report your music usage every 3 months, and so if you then go over, you start getting charged £0.00058 per listener, per song.

The only way I can think you would be able to get out of it, would be to prove there is no financial gain, and no considerable listener numbers, which there is in both cases. OR, you could chose to simply ignore the PPL as they are less likely to follow up a writ to Denmark/USA. Especially in the USA where they have no powers in terms of jurisdiction (this would only be if you have an American host, rather than servers based in Denmark, where the site owner resides).

[Sluing]

The question that comes to mind for myself would be, why would Habbo bare to put this upon the communities that make them? Habbo is not held up by what it has to offer to the world, because quite honestly not too many of us are fond with the route it has taken. Though, we find it rather interesting to get involved with these fansites as a way to equalize the likeness of Habbo. Without the fansites, we would no longer log on as long as we do, leading into the occasional log in and eventually quitting the game all together.

I personally think, that if these accusation of Habbo being involved in such, rather confusing, actions, they're only digging a whole which may leave them in closing altogether.

VIP shouldn't be an issues, and as someone said, if they worry about these small memberships, this truly is a sad company. I personally do not see the urge to purchase this useless pixel furniture, though I do quite enjoy collecting it. Though, as I've stated, I will not go beyond trading for it and consider purchasing it. My money is worth way more time than something not in my hands. While others would disagree and purchase it in a heartbeat. So to conclude, it's all in whether the user has the urge purchase it or not. It has nothing to do with the revenue received by any organization revolved or relating to a Habbo associated website.

So enough of my blabs and good luck to HxF to whatever the future may hold. Hope it stays, I enjoy the Habbo gossip, rumors and other interesting factual information.