Moderation in spam...

[Immenseman]

Don't move this to complaints because I created it to gain an insight into how others feel about the moderation within the spam forum.

Personally, I think it's non-existent or very poor. This week there have been numerous arguments which I know General Management and I would hope the Moderation Department are fully aware of. However, negative sanctions haven't been handed out like they normally would be purely due to the excessive amounts of rule breaking. That's a very lazy mentality to have but throughout this week this lazy attitude has been evident.

I'm not creating this at a dig in anyone in particular it's just I think that the moderation in the spam forum needs to be looked at. I imagine it has always been one of the forums where the most amount of rule breaking occurs so surely the super moderators should help out the moderators if there is an excessive amount of rule breaking.

OK, admittedly threads have been closed and I assume infractions have been given out. The amount of time it has taken for threads to be closed has been bordering on ridiculous. As soon as there is an argument the thread should be closed... there is a thread which is like 17 pages with a lot of arguing in which has calmed now but was never closed yet I know for a fact moderators have viewed the thread.

Creating threads doesn't do anything but makes me think it was done in a time-cutting exercise which is a poor decision to make. Getting to the root of the problem is the only way to rid it not just try and paper the cracks which is the option that has been taken.

I wouldn't even know who a super moderator is and it never used to be like that. The only two I can think of off the top of my head are Jess and Yoshimitsui where previously I would be able to recite at least 4 or so.

[Samishlol]

I havent noticed this aswell which is abit stupid. The Moderators do need to step up yes. Maybe if they had MOD- next to their name it would be easy to spot them? Because I don't even know who the moderators are let alone that.

The administrators & super moderators are the same colour too.

[Immenseman]

I don't think they need that. I know they're busy and I respect this. However, super moderators specifically are key players in a decent community feel and when you don't even know who are super moderators because they never post or whatever then it isn't all that great.

[Pyroka]

Well they're not that busy, seeing as they have time to pick up the pieces and infract whoever they feel like, just to make it look like they've handled the situation 'efficiently'.

Jesus christ, I'm going to be temporarily banned just because the Moderators are slow and can't do their jobs, moderating the forum as a whole, properly. Bloody silly.

[Immenseman]

Yeah, but that always seems to be their poor excuse "we're busy" then bloody resign and let someone worth-while do your job and they'll make a better deal out of it also. I wouldn't care it's just stupid when threads are produced about bullying when they're not even doing anything to prevent it. It's like someone at college moaning that their grades are poor when they haven't revised.

[GommeInc]

I havent noticed this aswell which is abit stupid. The Moderators do need to step up yes. Maybe if they had MOD- next to their name it would be easy to spot them? Because I don't even know who the moderators are let alone that.

The administrators & super moderators are the same colour too.
Ewww no, people use this forum to get away from Habbo :P

Moderators are easy to spot, the coloured names and user title kinda give them away. I can't say I've noticed that many bad things in the Spam section, it just looks like Spam to me, but there's no harm in stepping up moderation :D

[FlyingJesus]

As I mentioned in the spam thread about it, I think one of the big problems currently is that staff members are getting involved (sometimes up to management level) and normal moderators can't deal with those people. I agree that smods need to be a bit more in the limelight though, the only one I actually see posting ever is Yoshi, the others seem set in only posting to one area if at all. Not sure if Wayne is away on holiday or something and apologies to him if I'm calling him out and he is, but seriously...
Last Activity: 06-02-2009 11:36 AM

[Immenseman]

Yeah Tom. Like I replied I can only think of me and Leah which is a minority. I know Garion reported all my posts like he should do but yet he is a moderator so why wasn't he handing out negative sanctions to other people in the threads he was reporting mine to, it's beyond me. Just because two staff members have been involved it doesn't mean they are they only ones who should be punished which is what has happened.

[clarissa !!]

i think spam just needs a lot more moderators really

[FlyingJesus]

I'm gonna stop posting in the spam thread because it's getting complicated :P but just to recap my reply there, I see a lot of radio staff acting up around the forum (not just in spam) and I'm not sure what happened last night really as I wasn't around, just looks like the normal female dominance fight to me.
Not to pick on you as I agree it's wrong to only discipline staff after a problem, but you are the ones, especially as managers, who are supposed to be setting an example. Even I managed to stay away from bullying for a while when I was manager.. or at least keep it to off the forum.

[Immenseman]

Yeah, I should have been fired. People have been fired for a lot less than what I did but that isn't up to me. I respect nvrspk4's decision regardless of what it is because he's the one trying to run Habbox. I can't personally help who I am and my staff status isn't going to stop me from posting what I'm thinking. I can't lie and pretend to like someone when I don't whereas some people could.

[FlyingJesus]

Well I don't think it's an offense worthy of getting fired but that's just my lax/pro views on freedom to bully in general, and you being an old hand at the job it wouldn't be beneficial to Habbox anyway. Far better to judge each case on its merits rather than have the same rule for all staff no matter how good they are in my view so yeah I'm not gonna be coming at you with torches at pitchforks :P

Anyway I'm off to McDonalds, latersss

[Wootzeh]

Should of pmed forum manager.

[Immenseman]

No, because if you'd read the thread then you'd see I wanted to get other peoples thoughts and opinions, dear.

[buttons]

As I mentioned in the spam thread about it, I think one of the big problems currently is that staff members are getting involved (sometimes up to management level) and normal moderators can't deal with those people. I agree that smods need to be a bit more in the limelight though, the only one I actually see posting ever is Yoshi, the others seem set in only posting to one area if at all. Not sure if Wayne is away on holiday or something and apologies to him if I'm calling him out and he is, but seriously...
Last Activity: 06-02-2009 11:36 AM
iirc wayne has family problems, jess is ill, yoshi is still about and mattgarner is away. There is hardy any arguments with staff that i've seen just the 2 (u no who u r!) the rest is just minor arguments that no-one really cares about.

OK, admittedly threads have been closed and I assume infractions have been given out. The amount of time it has taken for threads to be closed has been bordering on ridiculous. As soon as there is an argument the thread should be closed... there is a thread which is like 17 pages with a lot of arguing in which has calmed now but was never closed yet I know for a fact moderators have viewed the thread.
when there was a thread entitled "buttons/jen" it was closed by iAdam when it kicked off so he did a pretty good job there and even pmed me to ask if there was anything anywhere else that needed dealt with, even though the people arguing are denying it's arguing and say it's just "saying what they think" which is essentially leading to arguments. That thread "hiii" was made at the middle of the night when no mods were online so you can't really blame them and i doubt any come online in the morning and first thing they'll want to do is read through 17 pages to sort out the trouble makers. Jess had a look through (saw some edits) and she's actually away, i think?? so yeh it was made late at night no mods were on, it's not the moderator's faults it's the members who are spoiling it for everyone

Well they're not that busy, seeing as they have time to pick up the pieces and infract whoever they feel like, just to make it look like they've handled the situation 'efficiently'.

Jesus christ, I'm going to be temporarily banned just because the Moderators are slow and can't do their jobs, moderating the forum as a whole, properly. Bloody silly.
yes, they did hand out infractions in the end so they're still doing their jobs and how is them being slow gonna make you temporarily banned? even if they got you infracted straight away it'd be the same.


i think spam just needs a lot more moderators really
yeh there were 7 new mods or something and none were put to spam :S
anyway that thread is all sorted now so they just need to get everyone in spam to stop arguing, oh yeh it's not arguing according to them :rolleyes:

[Pyroka]

yes, they did hand out infractions in the end so they're still doing their jobs and how is them being slow gonna make you temporarily banned? even if they got you infracted straight away it'd be the same.

Yeah I think I take back that comment... Sorta silly to say that, sorry.

[jackass]

You do know we can't moderate 24/7, we do have college/university/jobs to go to, and we do have lives outside of this forum.

There have been many threads which have been full of arguments, and the second I saw them, I closed them all. Punishments cannot always be dished out, because there aren't actually specific posts that start the arguments - it normally just starts out slowly and snowballs out of control, so there isn't an exact post to punish.

Although saying this, the people in question that have been in the majority of the arguments do get reported, as it's out of us normal moderators hands, so serious action will get taken, especially if it carrys on.

Hope this has cleared some things up.

[Immenseman]

Well it hasn't really cleared anything up because we're all perfectly aware of that. If people are too busy with their real life then they should resign and let someone who isn't so busy take their job someone who is prepared to moderated and trawl through the pages and posts and issue the right sanctions. I personally wouldn't do it in 100 years but there are people who would be more than willing.

If that's right that none of the new moderators were issued to spam then that's just stupidity when it's obviously one of the "trouble" forums.

[jackass]

Well it hasn't really cleared anything up because we're all perfectly aware of that. If people are too busy with their real life then they should resign and let someone who isn't so busy take their job someone who is prepared to moderated and trawl through the pages and posts and issue the right sanctions. I personally wouldn't do it in 100 years but there are people who would be more than willing.

If that's right that none of the new moderators were issued to spam then that's just stupidity when it's obviously one of the "trouble" forums.

How has it not cleared anything up? Normal moderators cannot deal with constant arguments. It's only super moderators/higher ranked staff that can deal with things like that.

And you seriously cannot expect someone to come on the forum 24/7, can you? I come on a hell of a lot and go through the majority of the threads and posts, especially in the spam forum, so how am I not prepared to moderate?

[Immenseman]

It hasn't cleared things up because you're wrong. Normal moderators can infraction for bullying and arguing which is what was happening. You're blowing things out of all proportion and trying to cause a scene which isn't working. Not once have I requested that people come online 24/7 but I think the moderators at the moment have this lazy mentality. If you were prepared to moderate you would have sorted things.

It's funny because you say what action you took and then say you can't take action :S Which one is the lie?! :S:S

[jackass]

It's funny because you say what action you took and then say you can't take action :S Which one is the lie?! :S:S

We can take action against single posts/threads but we can't take action against it happening on a regular basis.

[Immenseman]

Can someone else confirm that? If that's correct then where the hell is the sense in that? Not an attack on you Biohazard but I can not see the reasoning behind "you can deal with singular threads but not if it happens on a regular basis"

[FlyingJesus]

Normal moderators cannot deal with constant arguments. It's only super moderators/higher ranked staff that can deal with things like that.

How's this the case? Unless staff members are involved I'm pretty sure it's well within a moderator's power to make edits and give out warnings/infractions (you know, those things which are your job to do).

As for taking action against single posts, that wasn't happening either. I'm not saying mods should be on 24/7 but maybe we need more who come on late night, either one of us insomniac types or someone foreign who's around at that time, because nothing gets done at night and then of course things escalate until everyone gets infractioned in the morning.

[buttons]

Can someone else confirm that? If that's correct then where the hell is the sense in that? Not an attack on you Biohazard but I can not see the reasoning behind "you can deal with singular threads but not if it happens on a regular basis"
moderators can only infract they can't exactly ban anyone unless it's automatic, smods can BUT I DUNNO, if both mods and smods had the same jobs there would be no need for the two different "titles" :S:S:P:@:eusa_wall:eusa_wall:$:8:eusa_whis:):D;)
*NVM*

[,Jess,]

As far as I am aware the bullying and insulting etc can be dealt with by normal moderators. If they see that something is getting out of hand they still deal with it but let an Smod know so that people who are consistantly breaking rules can get a kind of "final warning" about it which would mean if they continued they would get a ban which is Smod stuff. However normal mods can deal with infracting indivdual posts.

I know the rulebreaking last night took a while to be dealt with and I think it was just unfortunate circumstances in that most of the Smods were/are away and perhaps even moderators of that section too.

I think that there ought to be maybe 1 or 2 more Smods to help a bit as at the moment it's a bit like 1 person is away and the other 2 spend ages trying to keep on top of everything but obviously that's down to forum management.

[Immenseman]

Yeah I thought they could deal with it. Jen, I know that they do different tasks, lol. Where did that come from girl?! It's not that I'm saying I want moderators to be online all the time just someone actually actively moderating spam would be nice and if the current moderators can't do that then give the job to someone like Kardan who is active and posts in there a lot anyway.

[Monopoly]

lol when mods are strict in spam you're all like
"ahh nazi mods -moans"

[marriott0.01]

The moderation team try there hardest Jake, but I do have to agree with you they can't do everything, and the lack of Moderators in the Spam section is apparent. Your suggestion of giving it to someone like Kardan, will most likely not solve the problem as that means Kardan, or someone like Kardan, would have to constantly be on to just check that section. I think there should be more than one dedicated Moderator for spam, as it is the most active Forum, and also the one where bully's target. So, yeah I agree there is some flaws that need addressing, as the current Moderators team, no matter how hard they work, cannot handle that section.

[Samishlol]

They need more moderators for the spam forum.

[Immenseman]

lol when mods are strict in spam you're all like
"ahh nazi mods -moans"
well i'd personally rather strict than an evident lack of moderation even if you did just make that up on the spot.

[FlyingJesus]

I heard a rumour that I'm the new smod

[Immenseman]

You'd be crap tom ;l

[The Professor]

Moderators : 3
Garion, Biohazard, iAdam

There's your problem right there. 3 moderators for the general section isn't nearly enough, especially when there has been a problem identified. 4 moderators is the lowest number I'd put there (so there are still at least 3 when one is away) and ideally 5 moderators would be great, with some assigned to sections as well as general to give them something to do when general is quiet or being modded by the other mods. It just seems like a reshuffle is needed, there isn't anything wrong with the fundamental system or anything like that because it's worked well for the past year :)

[Sammeth.]

Spam specific moderators wouldn't do any harm I don't think since if they just focused on that forum alone thing might get done very swiftly indeed. Im not sure if that's exactly plausible though. You're right though, it is an issue which needs addressing but I don't think its the moderators doing a bad job, just a lack of moderators to do the job. Hopefully there will be a resolution to the issue soon!

[marriott0.01]

There's your problem right there. 3 moderators for the general section isn't nearly enough, especially when there has been a problem identified. 4 moderators is the lowest number I'd put there (so there are still at least 3 when one is away) and ideally 5 moderators would be great, with some assigned to sections as well as general to give them something to do when general is quiet or being modded by the other mods. It just seems like a reshuffle is needed, there isn't anything wrong with the fundamental system or anything like that because it's worked well for the past year :)
I don't think General should only cover Spam, I think there should be a dedicated team JUST for Spam, this would make it a lot easier for the Moderators in General, as they could concentrate on the other General Forums, while assisting the dedicated team.

[Immenseman]

Yeah but I don't think they're being over worked or anything. OK there could be 5 to cover the whole of general. I think the real problem is the lazy mentality. Of course, I say this blinded to the actual statistics and what work they're doing. They happily report staff posts to general management yet they ignore the rule breaking posts around them. Maybe it's something to do with friendship groups or something. I have no idea although I'd hope that doesn't play too much of a part.

[The Professor]

Spam specific moderators wouldn't do any harm I don't think since if they just focused on that forum alone thing might get done very swiftly indeed. Im not sure if that's exactly plausible though. You're right though, it is an issue which needs addressing but I don't think its the moderators doing a bad job, just a lack of moderators to do the job. Hopefully there will be a resolution to the issue soon!

Its an option but I think you should try just ploughing more mods into the general section first :) Moderators tend to get demoralised if they don't have much to do and being assigned to one section seems likely to make someone demoralised, especially with the general moderators and other spam moderators competing for the edits and such.


Yeah but I don't think they're being over worked or anything. OK there could be 5 to cover the whole of general. I think the real problem is the lazy mentality. Of course, I say this blinded to the actual statistics and what work they're doing. They happily report staff posts to general management yet they ignore the rule breaking posts around them. Maybe it's something to do with friendship groups or something. I have no idea although I'd hope that doesn't play too much of a part.

Imo that seems a bit "guilty 'til proven innocent". I don't use the section but from what you described it just sounds like there aren't enough people on at any one time to cover it, there's a difference between lazyness and genuinely not having the time to be on 24/7. If you see specific moderators ignoring certain posts around posts they edit, asking the FM to give them a nudge might solve the problem. I don't think making a generalisation will help much.

[marriott0.01]

There should be more of a variety of people that cover General, as it is the most active category, and 5 would be good, but then again, will they be up for doing it, or will they be lazy and just give up. And with friendship groups, they got to be a variety of people as you don't want someone who is close to someone letting them off.

[FlyingJesus]

You'd be crap tom ;l

You fix values!!!! :'(

lmao nah I know, I'd literally just ban everyone. Or at least Leah

[Immenseman]

I'd also like to see people who post a lot in there become moderators for that section. It's probably one of the most problematic. Sports is bad sometimes as is technology I've heard (not sure) so it'd be great to see people who are regular spam posters get a moderation trial or whatever. Obviously not one of the rule breakers but someone like erm flyingjesus (don't know about his disciplinary record) / Kardan / Smiddy they're also established members and won't be intimated to sort things out in fear of getting "hated" which unfortunately does play a part.

haha how ironic i said you'd maybe be a good mod for spam tom and then you post that ^

[The Professor]

I'd also like to see people who post a lot in there become moderators for that section. It's probably one of the most problematic. Sports is bad sometimes as is technology I've heard (not sure) so it'd be great to see people who are regular spam posters get a moderation trial or whatever. Obviously not one of the rule breakers but someone like erm flyingjesus (don't know about his disciplinary record) / Kardan / Smiddy they're also established members and won't be intimated to sort things out in fear of getting "hated" which unfortunately does play a part.

haha how ironic i said you'd maybe be a good mod for spam tom and then you post that ^

If there was a problem with friendship group-based moderating I think that might exacerbate it slightly :P

[Samishlol]

Just hire more moderators for spam section? Problem solved.

[Immenseman]

If there was a problem with friendship group-based moderating I think that might exacerbate it slightly :P
Just hazarding a guess at what might be going on :lol:

[myke]

I don't know whether to agree or not...

Super moderators have a lot of work to do..

Perhaps I read the thread wrong.

and there's moderators for spam.

[TopManTim]

there's also a lack of moderation in the music section

of course i got warned because I posted what britneys if you seek amy's lyrics meant/sounded like which was constructive but nothing for a 30 page war :$

[Jordy]

I'd also like to see people who post a lot in there become moderators for that section. It's probably one of the most problematic. Sports is bad sometimes as is technology I've heard (not sure) so it'd be great to see people who are regular spam posters get a moderation trial or whatever. Obviously not one of the rule breakers but someone like erm flyingjesus (don't know about his disciplinary record) / Kardan / Smiddy they're also established members and won't be intimated to sort things out in fear of getting "hated" which unfortunately does play a part.

haha how ironic i said you'd maybe be a good mod for spam tom and then you post that ^For the record the Technology section isn't too bad, lots of smod's tend to be interested in the section therefore behaviour tends to be good. The website development section is a totally different story though, just as awful as the Sports section in terms of continual arguments involving a lot of idiots.

I agree with the people you suggested as Moderator's but sadly most people in the Spam section aren't appropriate for it, like Nvrspk said, there is bullying going on etc so an internal recruitment could be a bad move.

I've been contemplating myself creating a thread because there's too many idiots around the forum and on most forums they'd just be banned but the rules just don't seem to sort that quick enough, you have to go through the whole warning/infraction process followed by cautions and temporary bans. Can't a smod just ******* perm them if they're gonna be annoying, if there is such thing as common sense moderating on this forum (I'm yet to see it) then their judgment should be good enough to dish out perms here and there to idiots who just sign up to rattle people in the sports and spam section etc.

It's a rather long-standing rule but I've never understood why Moderator's have to PM senior management (Must be Nvrspk or Bomb-Head) to deal with Staff infractions. I'm sure a lot of Moderator's can't be bothered and in a way I'm not surprised, it's so slow dealing with it this way, especially as Nvrspk is across the Pond so we have to wait for him to come on sometimes (Not his fault but the forum is predominantly European). Does it really matter if someone is a Habbox Help Desk Trialist? Moderators should be able to give out infractions to staff (Other than management and moderators for obvious reasons) and then maybe they should post in a thread or then PM their department manager so they know and can judge whether it's appropriate for them to be staff.

As for the poor moderation once again, can we please stop with the excuses and stop being in denial? Can't the moderation gravy train admit their mistakes for once and look into how things can be improved instead of giving tedious excuses and justifying everything. If there wasn't a problem people wouldn't be moaning so please stop defending yourself constantly and post constructively.

Edit: Oh and I feel I must include this here to prove my point about poor moderation, it's rather sickening this particular case. I reported this a few hours ago and still nothing, a moderator should have spotted this as it was posted yesterday (Trialist mod even posted).

http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?p=5671164#post5671164

Somebody has posted illegal download links to a Rape Simulator Game which has been in the news for obvious reasons, not only is it sick that somebody posted this but this is probably illegal too. Regardless of the law in this case, this is an 18 game which no doubt contains violence and nudity and would therefore be an 18 and unsuitable for this 'Teen' forum at the very least. I see this as far worse than posting pornography tbh and if anything but a perm ban is handed out for that post then they've got off lightly and clearly the rules need toughening, agreed?

[leah]

Yeah Tom. Like I replied I can only think of me and Leah which is a minority. I know Garion reported all my posts like he should do but yet he is a moderator so why wasn't he handing out negative sanctions to other people in the threads he was reporting mine to, it's beyond me. Just because two staff members have been involved it doesn't mean they are they only ones who should be punished which is what has happened.
Theres a difference between being rude and arguing than posting what you think :P

I'm gonna stop posting in the spam thread because it's getting complicated :P but just to recap my reply there, I see a lot of radio staff acting up around the forum (not just in spam) and I'm not sure what happened last night really as I wasn't around, just looks like the normal female dominance fight to me.
Not to pick on you as I agree it's wrong to only discipline staff after a problem, but you are the ones, especially as managers, who are supposed to be setting an example. Even I managed to stay away from bullying for a while when I was manager.. or at least keep it to off the forum.
If you read the thread you would know I wasn't arguing and Jake wasn't even online at the time :)

I heard a rumour that I'm the new smod
as if.

You fix values!!!! :'(

lmao nah I know, I'd literally just ban everyone. Or at least Leah
omg you're such a bully (U)

[Immenseman]

http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=568175&page=9

Another one earlier, 11 pages in and rule breaking was on first page, lol.

[nvrspk4]

We're taking steps to combat it as you can see from the sticky, also the SMODS are paying special attention and we're handing out stricter punishments for bullying. Additionally we are looking to raise the number of moderators, probably to about 6. lAscend is working hard to try and fix the situation.

That being said, some people here are criticizing the firefighters while fanning the flames.

I think Alex summed it up best a while ago, you can all do something to help: Don't feed the trolls. And don't poke them in the eye with a stick either.

Even the victims of bullying are not completely innocent because they too are throwing around insults, not only at bullies but at other people who are victims.

Also we are probably going to begin removing people's access to the spam forum for periods of time, or in some cases permanantly.

[Blinger1]

We're taking steps to combat it as you can see from the sticky, also the SMODS are paying special attention and we're handing out stricter punishments for bullying. Additionally we are looking to raise the number of moderators, probably to about 6. lAscend is working hard to try and fix the situation.

That being said, some people here are criticizing the firefighters while fanning the flames.

I think Alex summed it up best a while ago, you can all do something to help: Don't feed the trolls. And don't poke them in the eye with a stick either.

Even the victims of bullying are not completely innocent because they too are throwing around insults, not only at bullies but at other people who are victims.

Also we are probably going to begin removing people's access to the spam forum for periods of time, or in some cases permanantly.
Was that really needed to be said as metaphor? I mean, after what i (as an Australian who lives right next to the worst bushfires in australian history, literally about 5-10minute drive) have just gone through...

Just ban all the people who cause arguments for a week from the spam forum :S (obviously, who argued in the spam section)

[FlyingJesus]

Yeah I'm sure he was trying to target you and your situation there. That's exactly the kind of self-victimising attitude that makes fights happen in the first place, because people take everything personally whether it's got anything to do with them or not.

[nvrspk4]

Was that really needed to be said as metaphor? I mean, after what i (as an Australian who lives right next to the worst bushfires in australian history, literally about 5-10minute drive) have just gone through...

Just ban all the people who cause arguments for a week from the spam forum :S (obviously, who argued in the spam section)

...was that supposed to be a joke? Maybe I missed the sarcasm :eusa_wall

With all due respect there was nothing wrong with that post...

[Immenseman]

Was that really needed to be said as metaphor? I mean, after what i (as an Australian who lives right next to the worst bushfires in australian history, literally about 5-10minute drive) have just gone through...

Just ban all the people who cause arguments for a week from the spam forum :S (obviously, who argued in the spam section)
What on Earth?! That's like saying you can never used the term "tower" again because of the twin towers. We all know both of these events were tragedies but you can't just come up with such ludicrous arguments to try and cause drama.

[leah]

Yeah I'm sure he was trying to target you and your situation there. That's exactly the kind of self-victimising attitude that makes fights happen in the first place, because people take everything personally whether it's got anything to do with them or not.
I do have to agree here, people always get paranoid over tiny things and this results in arguments.

[FlyingJesus]

YOU WHAT:@

[le harry]

*REMOVED*


Edited by Yoshimitsui (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not make pointles commnents.

[e5]

I rarely see threads edited in spam.

Previously, I've just seen threads locked and left.