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View Full Version : The glass ceiling - is it real



Mentor
30-06-2009, 05:45 PM
Hello, i'm off on holiday tomorrow and starting a new full time job after so my time to waste foruming is going to disappear pretty swiftly. Before this though i wanted to leave a nice juicy debate somewhat inspired by the set of documentary that have appeared on tv.

Whats is it?
The glass ceiling is the name give to the pay gap found between the genders in most countries today. To many it seems initially obvious that the glass ceiling does exist. Figures such as the fact that women in full time jobs earn 17% (source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4753360.stm)) less than males (75.3 cents on the dollar in the US according to the Census Bureau in 2003)

This difference in pay between the genders is commonly put down as a form of sexism within the work place, when men are promoted ahead of women and/or paid more for the same work (the glass ceiling)

How could you not believe in it?
A number of studies and experts have stated that this "glass ceiling effect" may not actually exist at all, instead attributing the pay gap to a number of additional factors. For example.

When choose jobs almost all men will select the money they are paid as the most important factor. Women on the other hand rate it much lower and select things such as job satisfaction, supportive supervisors and convenient working hours and helpfulness towards society as more important. (source) (http://books.google.com/books?id=NtaQMZX5Hk0C&pg=PA296&lpg=PA296&hl=en&ei=5EZKSsDJDZWsjAfAt_Fj&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1)

Given the above the fact that many women are selecting lower payed public sector jobs, over the higher paid private sector jobs is actually unsurprising. As is the fact theres a significant pay gap involved. Its also unsurprising that the higher paid private sector jobs are mostly dominated by men.
This explanation, that women are actually choosing to be paid less, conflicts with the notion of a glass ceiling, which attributes the pay gap purely to sexism.

A flip side of this is though that women often enjoy there jobs far more than there mail counterparts, report less stress and are far less likely to work jobs they do not enjoy.
Men on the other often do not enjoy their work and are very stressed. But believe this is worth it for the additional money they make.
Which can push the previous point further in that, men are indeed working for the higher pay they often get, and thus are deserving of it.

Its important here to note, these are generalizations, some women do go for the better paid jobs and thus take home the higher wages as a result.

Some additional statistics based of i believe a 1000 people done by channel 4 (unable to source atm)
Men are far more likely to ask for promotions within the careers
Men think promotion prospects are more important than women do, when choosing a job.

Many women still stop working when they have children and after coming back toward, up to a year or two later earn less than men. Although its important to note, the men have spent the last year or two progressing with there career where the woman has not, so having a higher pay because there career has progressed a few years ahead isnt actually in any way surprising or unexpected.

And finally, what i think and hopefully people will ether disagree/agree or add to is:
Based on the above, i personally do not think the glass ceiling, at least in terms of the gender pay gap, truly exists. The gender pay gap does, but it is not actually a bad thing. Theres also a big job satisfaction gap that goes in the opposite direction. If people choose a job to earn money, they will earn more. if they choose it because they enjoy it, they'll earn less. Women are chooseing jobs they enjoy and men jobs that pay well, thus the pay gap.

So i don't think any form of discrimination is really take place in most cases now days and that the pay gap is simply a matter of differing priority's.
Again i want to point out this is a generalization, and there are plenty of people who break the mold and do not obay this average :)

Chippiewill
30-06-2009, 06:21 PM
Most woman take up jobs because they are bored
Most men take up jobs because they think that the inches of their TV is in relation to their *manhood* area...

:)

Mentor
19-07-2009, 06:29 PM
hmmm too much? I think i won this debate (despite taking a normally pretty unpopular view) before any debate even got going... I even need to start with a looser augment or pick something more controversial :p

00chips : That relation is real! :P

Skajo
19-07-2009, 07:31 PM
Yes, lol. It's in a man's blood to become the most successful - in humans that means more money. You can see it in the animal kingdom where lions fight to see who's stronger, who's more succesful.

I don't believe there's sexism though, just the fact that males want success more than females.

Mentor
19-07-2009, 07:46 PM
Yes, lol. It's in a man's blood to become the most successful - in humans that means more money. You can see it in the animal kingdom where lions fight to see who's stronger, who's more succesful.

I don't believe there's sexism though, just the fact that males want success more than females.
I disagree that men more successful than woman, but kinda think you hit the nail on the head in terms of the gender difference. Its in fact only men that conciser money to be the measure of success, hence since are goal is to gain it, we gain more of it than women.
This doesn't though make men more successful as dispute what many believe we are not competing in this arena, most women value the amount of money made quite lowly compared to a range of other things which they are competing to get.
Men and women are no better at getting what they want than each other, they are equally successful.The differnts comes from that fact what both groups want is different. Men want money, hence get more money, women want job satisfaction hence got jobs that offer that.

The gender gap is based on priority after all, not aptitude as is historically whats been though :)

N!ck
19-07-2009, 09:15 PM
It's all about statistics where money is concerned. For instance a 17 year old male is, on average, more likely to have a car accident than the equivalent female or any other driver as a matter of fact. The price it costs to insure people reflects these statistics.

If you flip it the other way around then perhaps it can be applied to the amount that people are paid (I'm not being sexist, it's statistics :P).

Alkaz
19-07-2009, 09:16 PM
I think the glass ceiling does exist.

Mentor
19-07-2009, 10:33 PM
I think the glass ceiling does exist.

I've put forward a argument demonstrating it does not, i backed it up with sourced facts and evidence. Saying "you think it does exist" doesn't really cut it in debate. What evidence can you present to show it does exist? or even imply its existence? Is anything I've said incorrect, demonstrate it?

I find the issue interesting have a pretty good understanding of the underlaying concepts so it would be interesting to hear if i have something wrong in my Augment in order to fix and improve my understanding :)

Middlesbrough
22-07-2009, 02:41 AM
I've put forward a argument demonstrating it does not, i backed it up with sourced facts and evidence. Saying "you think it does exist" doesn't really cut it in debate. What evidence can you present to show it does exist? or even imply its existence? Is anything I've said incorrect, demonstrate it?

I find the issue interesting have a pretty good understanding of the underlaying concepts so it would be interesting to hear if i have something wrong in my Augment in order to fix and improve my understanding :)

Do you realise who Alkaz is? He is the biggest name on HXF!
Yes pie, divide that by the route of that 350345 Degree angle and you have some apple crumble.

Edited by :Mobile (Forum Super Moderator): Please try and expand your posts, as they may be classed as pointless.

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