Ireland to vote on EU Lisbon Treaty in October

[-:Undertaker:-]

Call this democracy? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8140269.stm)


The Republic of Ireland will hold a second referendum on the EU's controversial Lisbon Treaty on 2 October, Irish PM Brian Cowen says.
He made the announcement in the Irish parliament on Wednesday.
The treaty, aimed at streamlining EU institutions, was rejected by Irish voters by referendum in June last year. Mr Cowen has now secured binding EU guarantees that Lisbon will not affect Irish sovereignty over key issues such as military neutrality and abortion.


These issues, along with taxation policy, were identified as major concerns of Irish voters. "I believe these concerns have been addressed now in the shape of the legal guarantees," Mr Cowen told parliament on Wednesday.
"On that basis, I recommended to the government that we return to the people to seek their approval for Ireland to ratify the treaty and that referendum will take place on 2 October."

Most EU member states have ratified the treaty, but the Eurosceptic presidents of the Czech Republic and Poland have not yet signed it, saying they will wait for the decision of Irish voters.

Shame on the Irish Prime Minister for making his people vote again, I wonder if he allowed his opposition party another election a few months after he was voted in - didn't think so. I also wonder that if the treaty had got through, would the Republic of Ireland be having another vote this time around to see what they think now? - didn't think so.

The fact the European Union has now offered Ireland opt outs (which will later be scrapped anyway) goes to show all along, that they do and always have aimed to create a European superstate despite the people of Europe not wanting a unelected European superstate to have powers over sovereign elected governments.

Iran and China must be laughing when our governments and the EU itself labels them undemocratic.

[alexxxxx]

nah but they weren't laughing when all the EU stood up and backed us against Iran and threatned them when our embassy staff were arrested.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Iran must be trembling in its boots now the EU is involved.

[alexxxxx]

which is why they let some of them go

[-:Undertaker:-]

Thanks to the EU telling Iran how much it disapproves?

In essence, we need to surrender 75%+ of our laws to a unelected body, pay billions and billions into the European Union and have our business, fishing and agriculture suffer with regulation so our so called allies & friends can call for the release of some embassy staff?

Are you actually serious?

[alexxxxx]

completely 100% serious.

viva europe, the european union and my fellow europeans. the body IS elected. billions and billions = £10bn/yr, in which we get the majority of all that money back. you don't know that those laws are not what something that you'd agree with. the EU as the largest trading bloc in the world and the with the largest economy in the world has a big weight behind what it says. We'd do the same for the french, the germans, the czechs, the romanians, the bulgarians and the spanish if they are in a similiar situation.

how about you go and read some europa.eu to find out some more stuffs about it.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3148/2390666040_2e6b0a9a78.jpg

Britain has always been, still is and forever will be part of Europe, it's economy and it's political setup.

Euronews is also a great TV channel to learn about the EU and fairly non-biased reporting.

[GommeInc]

completely 100% serious.

viva europe, the european union and my fellow europeans. the body IS elected. billions and billions = £10bn/yr, in which we get the majority of all that money back. you don't know that those laws are not what something that you'd agree with. the EU as the largest trading bloc in the world and the with the largest economy in the world has a big weight behind what it says. We'd do the same for the french, the germans, the czechs, the romanians, the bulgarians and the spanish if they are in a similiar situation.

how about you go and read some europa.eu to find out some more stuffs about it.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3148/2390666040_2e6b0a9a78.jpg

Britain has always been, still is and forever will be part of Europe, it's economy and it's political setup.

Euronews is also a great TV channel to learn about the EU and fairly non-biased reporting.
Europe has always been the biggest trading area of the world, dating back hundreds of years ago before the EU came about? :S And if all these figures are true, that the billions the EU make which go back to the respective countries, then how comes they do not make this known? As far as I can tell, they make themselves deliberately hated by not stating what good they do :/

[alexxxxx]

Europe has always been the biggest trading area of the world, dating back hundreds of years ago before the EU came about? :S And if all these figures are true, that the billions the EU make which go back to the respective countries, then how comes they do not make this known? As far as I can tell, they make themselves deliberately hated by not stating what good they do :/

That's the idea of the EU, to move money about to help the richer countries sell their goods in other countries and help the poorer countries. billions of Euros were spent in Ireland in improving their infastructure, millions (maybe billions) have been spent here. If you go to alot of places (like the market square in nottingham, much of liverpool, hundreds of other projects like art galleries and even businesses get money from the EU) you will see a european flag. It's because it's part-funded.

Look at www.europa.eu to all the things they actually do. They don't just hoard the billions given to them.

[-:Undertaker:-]

completely 100% serious.

viva europe, the european union and my fellow europeans. the body IS elected. billions and billions = £10bn/yr, in which we get the majority of all that money back. you don't know that those laws are not what something that you'd agree with. the EU as the largest trading bloc in the world and the with the largest economy in the world has a big weight behind what it says. We'd do the same for the french, the germans, the czechs, the romanians, the bulgarians and the spanish if they are in a similiar situation.

how about you go and read some europa.eu to find out some more stuffs about it.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3148/2390666040_2e6b0a9a78.jpg

Britain has always been, still is and forever will be part of Europe, it's economy and it's political setup.

Euronews is also a great TV channel to learn about the EU and fairly non-biased reporting.

So we do need to do all that just to get our so called friends and allies to help us?. Do you really think Iran gives ones or even remotely cares about what the European Union has to say, especially when the majority of its citzens do not even want it?

I'd prefer not to use a European Union channel thanks, I prefer history which is solid fact, you know like the example we have given of Europe trading fine with the EU for hundreds, if not thousands of years before the European Union existed?

Whats the difference between the Third Reich and the European Union in political structure terms? - the Third Reich was at least voted in.


Europe has always been the biggest trading area of the world, dating back hundreds of years ago before the EU came about? :S And if all these figures are true, that the billions the EU make which go back to the respective countries, then how comes they do not make this known? As far as I can tell, they make themselves deliberately hated by not stating what good they do :/

Exactly, but oh no without the European Union we would collapse Gomme, we'd be in poverty and the whole world would be in collapse, even though the farmers, fishermen and everyone else who is against the European Union know better than the eurocrats in Brussels - we are still apparently wrong. The political systems of the Soviet Union and the European Union are exactly the same, neither was voted in, sham elections were held in the parliaments of those countrys while the ruling elite still held the power, both also have/had a command economy which is centralised which is the opposite of the free market.

Its very strange how our country would suddenly collapse without the European Union, despite the rest of the world not being part of the European Union. If someone supports the economic side of the European Union (although that even doesn't even benefit us) then what is their excuse for the European Union becoming a political union? - they want a superstate, no doubt about that.

Why isn't anybody being asked whether they want this superstate? - because nobody does want it!

Alex later goes on to say how billions have been spent in the Republic of Ireland (sorry, since when did we pay our taxes to fund the Republic of Ireland?) and later says how Liverpool has apparently benefitted from the European Union, well no because that hardly makes sense at all, just look below, its primary school mathematics.

European Union
I give you, Gomme, £2 to spend on me.
You keep £1, and spend the other £1 on me.

Independance
I keep the £2 to spend on myself.
I spend the full £2 on myself and have double the benefits, & I can choose what I spend my money on.

Also the European Union has had billions going missing from its books for years, apparently its financial records have seen billions disappearing and its unknown where this money had gone - and it widely known.

[LuketheDuke]

LOL you used the example I gave in another thread and completely turned it on its head!

With the EU you get something back as other countries put into the big pot which we can take out of (see what Thatcher did with Agriculture in the 80's). With independence theres no external change so you end up paying more to keep British industries afloat.

Please dont highlight that as how the EU operates. Look onto the site alexxx posted and you can find out what Im trying to tell you.

[alexxxxx]

So we do need to do all that just to get our so called friends and allies to help us?. Do you really think Iran gives ones or even remotely cares about what the European Union has to say, especially when the majority of its citzens do not even want it?

FOR HEAVENS SAKE KNOCK IT OFF. THE LISBON TREATY LOST BY 3% POINTS IN IRELAND. THREE GOD-DAMN POINTS. The Irish have got some legal safeguards in place for themselves and now it is expected to pass as the polls suggest. It's called a freaking compromise.

Yes, Iran cares. Iran cares because we trade with them. We buy their goods, they buy ours. We cut them off, they'll lose, not us.


I'd prefer not to use a European Union channel thanks, I prefer history which is solid fact, you know like the example we have given of Europe trading fine with the EU for hundreds, if not thousands of years before the European Union existed?
This is what it sounds like to me: LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA IM NOT LISTENING, I'M JUST THINKING ABOUT MY OWN NARROWMINDED VIEWS ON THE WORLD AND HOW I WISH THAT I WAS AN UPPER CLASS SNOB IN THE 19TH CENTURY WHEN BRITAIN WAS GREAT. LALALALALALALALALLALALALALAA RULE BRITANIA BRITANIA RULES THE WAVES...... LALALALALALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING! DON'T TELL ME FACTS! Read up on what they are DOING. What they have DONE. How they have revolutionised us. At least READ some of the website. See what your campaign is against. The EU is elected. The commision is sent by the ELECTED governement and the parliament is ELECTED. The parliament gets a say with who is in and out of the comission and they have the power to sack the comission. Ultimately, the parliament has the power.

The FACT is that if we don't interact with the EU at ALL, our goods will be 6% more expensive at the border. At LEAST 6%. If we join the EEA we will get free trade, but we will still have to let people in and out as they please and we won't get any say on any laws that pass that will actually affect us. If we leave altogether, hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) will lose there jobs as they can no longer trade freely with europe again, plus the hundreds of thousands of brits living in Spain, France and Germany will all have to come back here. On the other way, there will be a few hundred thousands of poles and other E Europeans going back the other way. Inflation will rise. It's alright looking at the past, but looking AHEAD this would be the problem. You revel in the past, it's not coming back, you can't send time the other way around.

Sorry for flaming but eh. It's what i feel. Whenever i argue against you, you just use the same arguments AGAIN AND AGAIN even when i've already argued against them.

[-:Undertaker:-]

LOL you used the example I gave in another thread and completely turned it on its head!

With the EU you get something back as other countries put into the big pot which we can take out of (see what Thatcher did with Agriculture in the 80's). With independence theres no external change so you end up paying more to keep British industries afloat.

Please dont highlight that as how the EU operates. Look onto the site alexxx posted and you can find out what Im trying to tell you.

When the United Kingdom orginally signed up to the European project many, many farms closed, particulary apple farms were made worthless overnight as cheaper varieties from countrys around Europe were made avalible - that isn't helping us, that is DAMAGING US. Having a giant central economy is not good economics, we have seen it in all socialist countrys and it has failed, time upon time again.

The important lesson we learnt from Margaret Thatcher and the lesson which some of us still need to learn, is not to keep unprofitable industries afloat, of course socialism will never understand this.


FOR HEAVENS SAKE KNOCK IT OFF. THE LISBON TREATY LOST BY 3% POINTS IN IRELAND. THREE GOD-DAMN POINTS. The Irish have got some legal safeguards in place for themselves and now it is expected to pass as the polls suggest. It's called a freaking compromise.

Yes, Iran cares. Iran cares because we trade with them. We buy their goods, they buy ours. We cut them off, they'll lose, not us.
This is what it sounds like to me: LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA IM NOT LISTENING, I'M JUST THINKING ABOUT MY OWN NARROWMINDED VIEWS ON THE WORLD AND HOW I WISH THAT I WAS AN UPPER CLASS SNOB IN THE 19TH CENTURY WHEN BRITAIN WAS GREAT. LALALALALALALALALLALALALALAA RULE BRITANIA BRITANIA RULES THE WAVES...... LALALALALALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING! DON'T TELL ME FACTS! Read up on what they are DOING. What they have DONE. How they have revolutionised us. At least READ some of the website. See what your campaign is against. The EU is elected. The commision is sent by the ELECTED governement and the parliament is ELECTED. The parliament gets a say with who is in and out of the comission and they have the power to sack the comission. Ultimately, the parliament has the power.

The FACT is that if we don't interact with the EU at ALL, our goods will be 6% more expensive at the border. At LEAST 6%. If we join the EEA we will get free trade, but we will still have to let people in and out as they please and we won't get any say on any laws that pass that will actually affect us. If we leave altogether, hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) will lose there jobs as they can no longer trade freely with europe again, plus the hundreds of thousands of brits living in Spain, France and Germany will all have to come back here. On the other way, there will be a few hundred thousands of poles and other E Europeans going back the other way. Inflation will rise. It's alright looking at the past, but looking AHEAD this would be the problem. You revel in the past, it's not coming back, you can't send time the other way around.

Sorry for flaming but eh. It's what i feel. Whenever i argue against you, you just use the same arguments AGAIN AND AGAIN even when i've already argued against them.

How is the European Union democratic when we aren't given a choice on whether we want it or not and the commision which holds the power is not elected either?

The treaty LOST.

It LOST in the NETHERLANDS.
It LOST in FRANCE.
It LOST in the REPUBLIC OF IRELAND.

Too right I think we're a great country, we are still a world power and destroyed socialism in the 1980s along with the fall of the Soviet Union, we are stronger than most countrys around the world and yet they are not part of the European Union. Basically your argument is that we should give up, and just sign away our powers to Europe who we fought against in two world wars. Why did we even bother fighting Hitler & the Nazis when we are going to sign OUR SOVEREIGN POWERS away to unelected & unwanted eurocrats in Brussels?

These people would NOT be sent home, that is a damn lie. If these people from around Europe were sent back to the United Kingdom that would have a devestating effect on the economies around Europe, especially countrys such as the Kingdom of Spain. IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN. What would happen if we left the EU? - we would arrange free market style trade agreements with individual European countrys just like we had done for the past 1,000 years.

Why do you think the farmers and fishermen aorund Europe do not want the European Union? - they know better than me, they know better than you and they know better than the European Union itself.

I am in the past, the past where we ruled ourselves and when people had a say, your European dream would end tommorow if the people of Europe were given a say.

[GommeInc]

The FACT is that if we don't interact with the EU at ALL, our goods will be 6% more expensive at the border. At LEAST 6%. If we join the EEA we will get free trade,
As far as I can tell, that's due to the EU and they're the ones to blame for the 6% rise. Who sets that level? The EU, because individual countries cannot/would not set that level. It's like individual businesses trading with one another, they'll do it easily and for cheap (or free) because they need to trade to grow. It's why companies don't trade off their goods with a percentage of interest on top of it, instead, the sell of their goods for less than what consumers would buy them for - Sort of like VAT free rules.

An example could be at school. Individuals can trade their lunch for other food. Then individuals form a group, and they want to sell off their lunch with an extra percentage on-top of that - so a sandwich plus 20p. That 6% rise would only exist, because the EU have made it exist, that 6% would actually cease to exist if the EU weren't anti-competitive.

The only thing that I seem to agree on is free-trading and freedom to go around the EU, of course with limits. I don't agree with the idea of the EU signing away national identity. Soon people will refer to France as "the EU" because that's how the EU will market itself.

[alexxxxx]

When the United Kingdom orginally signed up to the European project many, many farms closed, particulary apple farms were made worthless overnight as cheaper varieties from countrys around Europe were made avalible - that isn't helping us, that is DAMAGING US. Having a giant central economy is not good economics, we have seen it in all socialist countrys and it has failed, time upon time again.

The important lesson we learnt from Margaret Thatcher and the lesson which some of us still need to learn, is not to keep unprofitable industries afloat, of course socialism will never understand this.

Are you an absolute idiot? Those farms stopped working well because they were too expensive to run! The consumers were paying more for goods that they were actually worth. If we already had this 1000 year old treaty with europe to trade freely THOSE FARMS WOULD BE ALREADY GONE. The EU is not a central economy apart from food supply, as without subsidies or price-control mechanisms, food becomes too cheap for farmers to be able to make a living. Rampant inflation. Ask people who have farms and alot of them need to survive on EU subsidies.



How is the European Union democratic when we aren't given a choice on whether we want it or not and the commision which holds the power is not elected either?

The treaty LOST.

It LOST in the NETHERLANDS.
It LOST in FRANCE.
It LOST in the REPUBLIC OF IRELAND.

Elected Commsion (via our ELECTED governments), Elected Parliament (by the people) and the elected parliament have the power to sack the comission. 'The EU is unlelected' is NOT an argument, cause it just isn't true. If we voted on every law, treaty we sign, law we pass, what is the point in voting in our MPs to do the job. It underminds parliament.



Too right I think we're a great country, we are still a world power and destroyed socialism in the 1980s along with the fall of the Soviet Union, we are stronger than most countrys around the world and yet they are not part of the European Union. Basically your argument is that we should give up, and just sign away our powers to Europe who we fought against in two world wars. Why did we even bother fighting Hitler & the Nazis when we are going to sign OUR SOVEREIGN POWERS away to unelected & unwanted eurocrats in Brussels?

'Europe' that we fought in the 2 world wars. GIVE ME A BREAK. XENOPHOBE. BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT THE GERMANS DON'T WANT THE UK ANYMORE. Because we fought some fascists 60 years ago doesn't mean they are the same anymore. Unelected, no, Unwanted, no.



These people would NOT be sent home, that is a damn lie. If these people from around Europe were sent back to the United Kingdom that would have a devestating effect on the economies around Europe, especially countrys such as the Kingdom of Spain. IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN. What would happen if we left the EU? - we would arrange free market style trade agreements with individual European countrys just like we had done for the past 1,000 years.

There has been NO free markety style agreements with EU countries like the past 1000 years. And to have free market solutions with the EU with free movement of labour, capital and goods you would need to join the EEA, which still means having to abide by EU law, with having no say in it. The only upside is that we'd have to pay less in contributions.

Why is what i have said is a lie? There is no legal reason why they'd be allowed to stay. The spanish here would have to pack up their bags and leave too? Why is it that British pensioners, that do nothing in the Spanish economy but use their healthcare and spend a small amount of money into the economy stay. Why would the country that has 10% unemployment rate (or more) want to keep those british people that have jobs in the market?



I am in the past, the past where we ruled ourselves and when people had a say, your European dream would end tommorow if the people of Europe were given a say.
The people WANT a union, the people WANT free trade, the people WANT to move from one country to the next, therefore they WANT the EU.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Are you an absolute idiot? Those farms stopped working well because they were too expensive to run! The consumers were paying more for goods that they were actually worth. If we already had this 1000 year old treaty with europe to trade freely THOSE FARMS WOULD BE ALREADY GONE. The EU is not a central economy apart from food supply, as without subsidies or price-control mechanisms, food becomes too cheap for farmers to be able to make a living. Rampant inflation. Ask people who have farms and alot of them need to survive on EU subsidies.


Elected Commsion (via our ELECTED governments), Elected Parliament (by the people) and the elected parliament have the power to sack the comission. 'The EU is unlelected' is NOT an argument, cause it just isn't true. If we voted on every law, treaty we sign, law we pass, what is the point in voting in our MPs to do the job. It underminds parliament.


'Europe' that we fought in the 2 world wars. GIVE ME A BREAK. XENOPHOBE. BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT THE GERMANS DON'T WANT THE UK ANYMORE. Because we fought some fascists 60 years ago doesn't mean they are the same anymore. Unelected, no, Unwanted, no.


There has been NO free markety style agreements with EU countries like the past 1000 years. And to have free market solutions with the EU with free movement of labour, capital and goods you would need to join the EEA, which still means having to abide by EU law, with having no say in it. The only upside is that we'd have to pay less in contributions.

Why is what i have said is a lie? There is no legal reason why they'd be allowed to stay. The spanish here would have to pack up their bags and leave too? Why is it that British pensioners, that do nothing in the Spanish economy but use their healthcare and spend a small amount of money into the economy stay. Why would the country that has 10% unemployment rate (or more) want to keep those british people that have jobs in the market?


The people WANT a union, the people WANT free trade, the people WANT to move from one country to the next, therefore they WANT the EU.

We never had a 1,000 year old treaty with Europe, nobody said we did. My point is that we have traded with Europe for the past 1,000+ years fine without the European Union. The European Union is a central economy, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Central means all together, the EU is all together in economic terms and sadly political terms. Free market means countrys are able to set their own prices/buy whatever they wish and trade on their own, its also known as independance. Have we lost the ability to trade all of a sudden?

How is something that is chosen without an election, elected? - in other words, its not elected!

Your right!, the Germans don't want the United Kingdom. This time we are fighting burocratic idiots within Brussels who are all left wing failures in their own countrys; Tony Blair, Neil Kinnock & Peter Mandelson. What is so hard to understand that people do not want European Union?

Free market isn't a collective agreement, it isn't a union. Free market is independant, therefore is doesn't need billions spent on it, it doesn't need national sovereignty to be taken away and it doesn't need large treaties which want control over all other aspects of national sovereignty. A union is not free market.

I think your forgetting what the rest of the world do to sort problems such as that out, they sign independant agreements between themselves, just like we did for a thousand years and just like the rest of the world still does, without the European Union. The Kingdom of Spain and various other countrys around Europe would not want the British to leave as that would ruin local property markets and economies, therefore the British and Spanish governments would sign an agreement on the status of them people living abroad - so simple its unbelievable.

I can't believe your saying people want the European Union, i'll ask you again; is that why no government will give the people of Europe a referendum on the EUs' existance and secondly, why did the EU constitution & lisbon treaty get voted down, in three countrys?

Why do you honestly think the European Union & the governments of Europe will not give the people of Europe referendums when it comes to the European Union? - because they will lose.

[alexxxxx]

We never had a 1,000 year old treaty with Europe, nobody said we did. My point is that we have traded with Europe for the past 1,000+ years fine without the European Union. The European Union is a central economy, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Central means all together, the EU is all together in economic terms and sadly political terms. Free market means countrys are able to set their own prices/buy whatever they wish and trade on their own, its also known as independance. Have we lost the ability to trade all of a sudden?

The world 1000 years ago (or even 100 years ago) was alot different. We didn't have such integrated markets as we do now, no global brands and our countries wered much less specialised. We have had good economic grwoth since we joined the EU. Better than ever before
You said:


we would arrange free market style trade agreements with individual European countrys just like we had done for the past 1,000 years.

What? Who said we didn't have agreements for free trade before the EU? YOU DID.


How is something that is chosen without an election, elected? - in other words, its not elected!

The cabinet isn't elected, the prime minister isn't elected, the house of lords isn't elected, the supreme court in the USA isn't elected. But you'd still call those democratic systems. The elected government places who they want there. If you don't trust who they'd put there YOU DON'T VOTE FOR THEM.


Your right!, the Germans don't want the United Kingdom. This time we are fighting burocratic idiots within Brussels who are all left wing failures in their own countrys; Tony Blair, Neil Kinnock & Peter Mandelson. What is so hard to understand that people do not want European Union?

The dutch got 60% no, the Irish got 53% no and the french got 55% no. Saying no to the treaty doesn't mean no to the EU altogether. Some people would have been unhappy with the new changes. bringing it back to at least 50/50. If not more pro-yes. I find it very hard because of this to understand that people don't want the EU.


Free market isn't a collective agreement, it isn't a union. Free market is independant, therefore is doesn't need billions spent on it, it doesn't need national sovereignty to be taken away and it doesn't need large treaties which want control over all other aspects of national sovereignty. A union is not free market.

A Common/Free market DOES need a collective agreement or it won't work, it needs safeguards, legaly binding agreements and people to ensure these agreements are taken place. A free treade agreement IS a union, a trade-bloc. It does need money spending on and technically it does erode some national sovereignty as every good should be allowed in and out.



I think your forgetting what the rest of the world do to sort problems such as that out, they sign independant agreements between themselves, just like we did for a thousand years and just like the rest of the world still does, without the European Union. The Kingdom of Spain and various other countrys around Europe would not want the British to leave as that would ruin local property markets and economies, therefore the British and Spanish governments would sign an agreement on the status of them people living abroad - so simple its unbelievable.

The rest of the world does make trading blocs. The EU IS an agreement between the EU member states. It is currently a union between states and not above them. It really isn't that simple. Spain is currently within the Shengen area, so techincally, the people who go to live in Shengen area are eligible to live everywhere else, plus goods and services are free to move from place to place. Therefore, we wouldn't be able to sign a treaty with just spain, we'd have to sign up to the EEA. Which is the 2nd class citizen approach to the EU, where you have to obey the rules, but with no say in how they are made. It isn't as simple as you'd think.


I can't believe your saying people want the European Union, i'll ask you again; is that why no government will give the people of Europe a referendum on the EUs' existance and secondly, why did the EU constitution & lisbon treaty get voted down, in three countrys?

Why do you honestly think the European Union & the governments of Europe will not give the people of Europe referendums when it comes to the European Union? - because they will lose.
The people of Europe have the chance to vote on the EU every time they vote for a pro-EU party and you have to remember that the majority of EU states have PR.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The world 1000 years ago (or even 100 years ago) was alot different. We didn't have such integrated markets as we do now, no global brands and our countries wered much less specialised. We have had good economic grwoth since we joined the EU. Better than ever before
You said:

It wasn't that much different, the financial parts of other countrys which are not part of the European Union have not collapsed due to them not being a part of the European Union, so why would ours? - Also we have had good economic growth thanks to free markets, not the European Union. I think you are forgetting the real reason why we have been turned around as a country, Margaret Thatcher. She was the one who reversed post-war decline, she was the one with Ronald Reagan who helped finish off socialism and let capitalism spread and she was the one we owe thanks to, not, and never the European Union.


What? Who said we didn't have agreements for free trade before the EU? YOU DID.

Indeed, and you will notice the key word there; individual, meaning independant trade agreements.


The cabinet isn't elected, the prime minister isn't elected, the house of lords isn't elected, the supreme court in the USA isn't elected. But you'd still call those democratic systems. The elected government places who they want there. If you don't trust who they'd put there YOU DON'T VOTE FOR THEM.

The Cabinet is elected via their electoral region, the cabinet, prime minister, house of lords, supreme court are all for their country, meaning a very simple thing; they think of their country first and foremost. If the elected government was so democratic as you say it is, why are they not giving us a referendum on European Union and that applies both to the Labour Party (first and foremost) and the Conservative Party included.


The dutch got 60% no, the Irish got 53% no and the french got 55% no. Saying no to the treaty doesn't mean no to the EU altogether. Some people would have been unhappy with the new changes. bringing it back to at least 50/50. If not more pro-yes. I find it very hard because of this to understand that people don't want the EU.

Nobody said all of the European population doesn't want the European Union, my point is that the majority do not want the European Union -therefore its existance is invalid. Why do you think nobody will give us a referendum on the European Union, or even its reformal?


A Common/Free market DOES need a collective agreement or it won't work, it needs safeguards, legaly binding agreements and people to ensure these agreements are taken place. A free treade agreement IS a union, a trade-bloc. It does need money spending on and technically it does erode some national sovereignty as every good should be allowed in and out.

That is not free then, collective market is not free marketism. Collective is another word for command, all together just as socialism has always argued for yet with all togetherness, command, collectivism it creates problems and does not work, hence the failed states of the Soviet Union and North Korea. Indeed it does erode national sovereignty, just like the Soviet Union eroded the sovereignty of Eastern Europe - do we want that? - no, we do not and that is why we fought a world war and a cold war to not have that sort of system placed upon us.


The rest of the world does make trading blocs. The EU IS an agreement between the EU member states. It is currently a union between states and not above them. It really isn't that simple. Spain is currently within the Shengen area, so techincally, the people who go to live in Shengen area are eligible to live everywhere else, plus goods and services are free to move from place to place. Therefore, we wouldn't be able to sign a treaty with just spain, we'd have to sign up to the EEA. Which is the 2nd class citizen approach to the EU, where you have to obey the rules, but with no say in how they are made. It isn't as simple as you'd think.

The rest of the world does make trading blocs, however those trading blocs are not aiming to become superstates and those trading blocs are independant, they do not have the extensive systems the European Union is setting up. You have just highlighted another problem and an example of the European Union being a dictatorship superstate, you have just said how Spain would be unable to sign a independant agreement with the United Kingdom due to the European Union - need I say much more?

It is very simple, but you, just like all the eurocrats boast about how the normal people do not understand the European Union and hence why we do not deserve a vote on whether or not we want it. Just like the Labour Party and Caroline Flint (Europe Minister at that time) said, despite herself not reading the treaty. Once the 'people do not understand/its not as simple as you think' argument is used, people can see right through the argument and can see very clearly that the aim is, and always has been a European Union superstate.


Which is the 2nd class citizen approach to the EU, where you have to obey the rules, but with no say in how they are made. It isn't as simple as you'd think.

No you do have a say in it, the only way to get a say in that would be to threaten to leave and they'd soon conform to your demands because the European Union hates the word no, it cannot bear the word. We have no say in how things are made right now, over 75% of our laws come from the European Union whether we agree with them or not - is that democracy when a foreign parliament is telling our parliament, government and people what to do? - no it is not.


The people of Europe have the chance to vote on the EU every time they vote for a pro-EU party and you have to remember that the majority of EU states have PR.

That is the best reply you can come up with? - well that just shows you know if we got our wish (a vote) the European Union would end overnight and Europe would once again be full of sovereign, independant states making their own laws for their own land, and making their own treaties where needed between each country, of which each country could terminate their treaties at anytime, also known as democracy.

[alexxxxx]

It wasn't that much different, the financial parts of other countrys which are not part of the European Union have not collapsed due to them not being a part of the European Union, so why would ours? - Also we have had good economic growth thanks to free markets, not the European Union. I think you are forgetting the real reason why we have been turned around as a country, Margaret Thatcher. She was the one who reversed post-war decline, she was the one with Ronald Reagan who helped finish off socialism and let capitalism spread and she was the one we owe thanks to, not, and never the European Union.

Free markets that the EU provide... That's why the orchards had to close. The 'free markets' we had before with the EU obviously weren't the same or those orchards wouldn't have been the same when we joined.
[/QUOTE]


Indeed, and you will notice the key word there; individual, meaning independant trade agreements.

Yes, but this ISN'T possible anymore. If we pull out of the EU, it's IMPOSSIBLE to have free trade agreements with individual states because there is no internal borders! Have you ever travelled from France to Germany, France to Italy? You will notice all there is is a sign with the country name on. It's impossible to setup solo free trade agreement with France and not Spain because Spanish people can send their goods via France, which is what they do now anyway! This approach CANNOT work. It is YOU that doesn't understand how it works.



The Cabinet is elected via their electoral region, the cabinet, prime minister, house of lords, supreme court are all for their country, meaning a very simple thing; they think of their country first and foremost. If the elected government was so democratic as you say it is, why are they not giving us a referendum on European Union and that applies both to the Labour Party (first and foremost) and the Conservative Party included.

This isn't the case. Mandelson was not elected, Brown made him a peer and then let him join the cabinet. This 'they think of their country first and foremost' is true in the Europe as well.



Nobody said all of the European population doesn't want the European Union, my point is that the majority do not want the European Union -therefore its existance is invalid. Why do you think nobody will give us a referendum on the European Union, or even its reformal?

What? You have no grounds to believe that the majority of the population don't want the EU. This argument is baseless.



That is not free then, collective market is not free marketism. Collective is another word for command, all together just as socialism has always argued for yet with all togetherness, command, collectivism it creates problems and does not work, hence the failed states of the Soviet Union and North Korea. Indeed it does erode national sovereignty, just like the Soviet Union eroded the sovereignty of Eastern Europe - do we want that? - no, we do not and that is why we fought a world war and a cold war to not have that sort of system placed upon us.

WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT? What I meant about a collective agreement is an agreement made between a group of states 'collectively.' This has nothing to do with socialism at all? Do you even know what a free market is? Because what we have is quite close to a free market.


The rest of the world does make trading blocs, however those trading blocs are not aiming to become superstates and those trading blocs are independant, they do not have the extensive systems the European Union is setting up. You have just highlighted another problem and an example of the European Union being a dictatorship superstate, you have just said how Spain would be unable to sign a independant agreement with the United Kingdom due to the European Union - need I say much more?

It's impossible to make an independant agreement because of the lack of border controls. We still have our border controls (apart from with the ROI). It is possible to be in the EU without the Schengen zone (Uk and Eire) are proof. If we got preferential treatment, the rest of the EU would have problems with Norway/Switzerland/Iceland as these are members of the EEA or have similiar treaties in place.



It is very simple, but you, just like all the eurocrats boast about how the normal people do not understand the European Union and hence why we do not deserve a vote on whether or not we want it. Just like the Labour Party and Caroline Flint (Europe Minister at that time) said, despite herself not reading the treaty. Once the 'people do not understand/its not as simple as you think' argument is used, people can see right through the argument and can see very clearly that the aim is, and always has been a European Union superstate.

You just don't understand the complexities. I've told you why it's impossible to sign independant treaties because of the border situation. This has nothing to do with us. We are not subject to these border issues because we are not a member of the schengen agreement. EU nationals still have to show ID when visiting the UK and the other way round. It is evident that normal people don't understand the EU because YOU don't undestand the EU. It made perfect sense for mainland europeans to remove their borders because it would reduce their costs.


No you do have a say in it, the only way to get a say in that would be to threaten to leave and they'd soon conform to your demands because the European Union hates the word no, it cannot bear the word. We have no say in how things are made right now, over 75% of our laws come from the European Union whether we agree with them or not - is that democracy when a foreign parliament is telling our parliament, government and people what to do? - no it is not.

Then make the EU work more for us. That's what the french do, that's what the germans do. But because the british public are fed rubbish and lies from News International (who have been allowed to become so big and to control the media of this country and therefore to control british politics by the tories) who are worried about EU regulations on them, outside of their control. The EU parliament isn't a foreign parliament. It's our parliament. Only EU nationals are allowed to stand in parliaments and be in the comission. It isn't foreign.


That is the best reply you can come up with? - well that just shows you know if we got our wish (a vote) the European Union would end overnight and Europe would once again be full of sovereign, independant states making their own laws for their own land, and making their own treaties where needed between each country, of which each country could terminate their treaties at anytime, also known as democracy.
Well it doesn't happen does it? Because when you vote for a party you are voting for all their policies. You can't pick and choose. That's how a democracy works. If the EU-haters keep voting tory, they won't get out of the EU anytime soon for the torys have too many mates with big business who rely on the EU and because the torys have no plan on leaving. It's how democracy works. If everyone who didn't support the EU went to UKIP, maybe they'd have a chance at getting us out. But it doesn't happen, probably because people don't actually mind the EU that much. If the EU is hated by the majority of other european states, why haven't france/nl gone as they have PR governments. Oh wait, it's because they don't hate it. If Ireland hate the EU so much, why are the polls showing they are going to pass the Lisbon Treaty. Because they don't hate the EU. This is democracy. Refferenda aren't democracy and just produce polarised results. The EU isn't just a yes/no answer. It's about how to approach the EU, how we want to steer it etc.

Learn about these things (not from the daily mail) and come back:

- Free Markets
- The EU
- Schengen Agreement/Area
- Free Trade
- EEA

[-:Undertaker:-]

Free markets that the EU provide... That's why the orchards had to close. The 'free markets' we had before with the EU obviously weren't the same or those orchards wouldn't have been the same when we joined.

What is it about the word free and free markets you don't understand, you have gone from collective to free market in this argument - which is it!? - you can't have both!


Yes, but this ISN'T possible anymore. If we pull out of the EU, it's IMPOSSIBLE to have free trade agreements with individual states because there is no internal borders! Have you ever travelled from France to Germany, France to Italy? You will notice all there is is a sign with the country name on. It's impossible to setup solo free trade agreement with France and not Spain because Spanish people can send their goods via France, which is what they do now anyway! This approach CANNOT work. It is YOU that doesn't understand how it works.

In your logic then, because these countrys no longer have border controls they cannot set up trade agreements with other countrys? - you have just made this up. This approach can work, it has worked for the past 1,000+ years and is still working all around the world. You saying internal borders have been abolished (which they have not, not yet anyway) just goes to show what you eurocrats really want, the erosion of the Europe and the creation of a superstate.


This isn't the case. Mandelson was not elected, Brown made him a peer and then let him join the cabinet. This 'they think of their country first and foremost' is true in the Europe as well.

How are they thinking of their country first when they are not elected by their country, they have let various laws from the European Union be imposed on us and finally have signed away our rebate along with Tony Blair without any protest? - are you seriously suggesting that these idiots are defending our country in the European Union?


What? You have no grounds to believe that the majority of the population don't want the EU. This argument is baseless.

Hang on, firstly the reformal of the European Union (when put to a referendum) to the French, Dutch and Irish was turned down, the people said NO.

Secondly, why do you think no government will give its people a referendum on European Union membership? - because it would LOSE.


WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT? What I meant about a collective agreement is an agreement made between a group of states 'collectively.' This has nothing to do with socialism at all? Do you even know what a free market is? Because what we have is quite close to a free market.

Collectivism is not free marketism, collectivism is what the Soviet Union had and what socialist states tend to have, the system the European Union has set up is the same. Free market has the word free in it for a reason.


It's impossible to make an independant agreement because of the lack of border controls. We still have our border controls (apart from with the ROI). It is possible to be in the EU without the Schengen zone (Uk and Eire) are proof. If we got preferential treatment, the rest of the EU would have problems with Norway/Switzerland/Iceland as these are members of the EEA or have similiar treaties in place.

Hang on, so because some other countrys who want a European Union superstate wouldn't like us retaining some sovereignty we should give it up? - come off it - if you and the European Union ever want to win over the people that certainly isn't the way to argue the case for European Union and sovereignty.


You just don't understand the complexities. I've told you why it's impossible to sign independant treaties because of the border situation. This has nothing to do with us. We are not subject to these border issues because we are not a member of the schengen agreement. EU nationals still have to show ID when visiting the UK and the other way round. It is evident that normal people don't understand the EU because YOU don't undestand the EU. It made perfect sense for mainland europeans to remove their borders because it would reduce their costs.

Borders have nothing to do with sovereignty and trade agreements. Before the European Union was about goods still were driven around Europe because of individual trade agreements between countrys. I really don't understand you eurocrats' logic. You had the EU reform turned down in three referendums, how many times do people have to say no before you get the message?


Then make the EU work more for us. That's what the french do, that's what the germans do. But because the british public are fed rubbish and lies from News International (who have been allowed to become so big and to control the media of this country and therefore to control british politics by the tories) who are worried about EU regulations on them, outside of their control. The EU parliament isn't a foreign parliament. It's our parliament. Only EU nationals are allowed to stand in parliaments and be in the comission. It isn't foreign.

Ahh here we go again, "the press are mind controlling us all!" - NO.
I think its a disgrace you have the nerve do say the British public don't know how to make up their mind on the European Union. Do you know why all these papers are so successful compared to the Guardian which has to be subsidised to keep running? - because people agree with them papers.

Don't use that tactic again about the "evil right wing media brainwashing us all" because there is a left wing option there, the Guardian, but due to its low circulation and it having to be subsidised to keep running I wouldn't say its a pretty popular read. Sales figures say everything.

The European Parliament is foreign, it doesn't have our interests at heart, it is in another country and we never asked or wanted it to create 75% of our laws.


Well it doesn't happen does it? Because when you vote for a party you are voting for all their policies. You can't pick and choose. That's how a democracy works. If the EU-haters keep voting tory, they won't get out of the EU anytime soon for the torys have too many mates with big business who rely on the EU and because the torys have no plan on leaving. It's how democracy works. If everyone who didn't support the EU went to UKIP, maybe they'd have a chance at getting us out. But it doesn't happen, probably because people don't actually mind the EU that much. If the EU is hated by the majority of other european states, why haven't france/nl gone as they have PR governments. Oh wait, it's because they don't hate it. If Ireland hate the EU so much, why are the polls showing they are going to pass the Lisbon Treaty. Because they don't hate the EU. This is democracy. Refferenda aren't democracy and just produce polarised results. The EU isn't just a yes/no answer. It's about how to approach the EU, how we want to steer it etc.

No, referendums are democracy, they are more democratic than elections themselves. Let us take a look back at 2005 when the Labour Party promised the British people that if Labour were to get into office again we would have a referendum on the reformal of the European Union. - We are now not having a referendum. Once in power they can do what the hell they bloody well like and its no wonder people don't bother with politics anymore.

Ireland have benefitted from the European Union, if the Republic of Ireland would not have had the European Union then the investment they have had/have now would not be sustainable on their own due to them being a small country. If we are using the PR argument then how about this; how strange is it that the two euro-sceptic partys (Conservatives & UKIP) both beat the Labour Party and other pro-EU partys at the European Elections which were PR?

As for the Republic of Ireland, if I was them i'd milk the European Union for all I could get for as long as possible, and then leave. The reason why I, as a British citzen want them to fail the treaty is because it means by that time a Conservative government coming into office and giving us a referendum on the treaty, which would then mean the treaty declared dead on the floor.

The Republic of Ireland said no the first time, why is this answer not good enough?


Learn about these things (not from the daily mail) and come back:

- Free Markets
- The EU
- Schengen Agreement/Area
- Free Trade
- EEA

I think the most important thing for you and the European Union to learn is that when people say no, that means no.

Maybe in future when referendums are held on the EU, or even at the next referendum in the Republic of Ireland, the voting card should just have two yes answers on it because that is what the EU wants, I wonder if the Republic of Ireland say yes this time, in a years time from then will the EU be asking them the same question again, just to make sure they are still comfortable with their decision?

Didn't think so.

[LuketheDuke]

Undertaker from a neutral point of view the previous poster has asked you to look up on a certain number of organisations and has even at times given you links to try and develop this argument further yet you aren't really communicating with whats being proposed to you.

Your recycling the referenda point endlessly, Ok so 3 countries said no to the treaty but have you seen the amount of countries who have ratified it? Seems to me that the majority do want the treaty so I dont understand what your saying.

Referenda arent statute or binding democratic means of authority either, they only guage a small amount of a publics attitude who are reacting at events which have recently happened. Is a less than 50% turnout really democratic?

Also this free markets thing is annoying me, if you say you support them then you must realise that whilst we have EU membership we have unrestricted trade allowances with other nations. From your ideological perspective you wouldnt like it if the government was slapping import and export taxes onto goods to recover money back from secular trade agreements yet if we left the EU we would have to do exactly that.

You cant just say all we learn is "no". How constructive is that in an argument where a lot of facts are being presented to you?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Undertaker from a neutral point of view the previous poster has asked you to look up on a certain number of organisations and has even at times given you links to try and develop this argument further yet you aren't really communicating with whats being proposed to you.

Your recycling the referenda point endlessly, Ok so 3 countries said no to the treaty but have you seen the amount of countries who have ratified it? Seems to me that the majority do want the treaty so I dont understand what your saying.

Referenda arent statute or binding democratic means of authority either, they only guage a small amount of a publics attitude who are reacting at events which have recently happened. Is a less than 50% turnout really democratic?

Also this free markets thing is annoying me, if you say you support them then you must realise that whilst we have EU membership we have unrestricted trade allowances with other nations. From your ideological perspective you wouldnt like it if the government was slapping import and export taxes onto goods to recover money back from secular trade agreements yet if we left the EU we would have to do exactly that.

You cant just say all we learn is "no". How constructive is that in an argument where a lot of facts are being presented to you?

Why would I want to read a European Union website telling me how great the European Union is? - that is like telling me to read Karl Marx to judge communism/socialism when I can judge it fine from history. All you seem to do is join discussions in the middle and move the subject away from the actual discussion, to something pointless.

Indeed the majority have approved the treaty, however the people have not approved the treaty. The only three countrys given a say on the reform all turned it down, doesn't that tell you something or can you not understand the concept of no?. The referendum point is vital to the European Union because you may say we need the European Union/people want the European Union but why aren't we being given a referendum on it if the European Union is so very sure of itself?

Using that argument then, should we just scrap general elections in future because they have a low turnout? - come on, lets not make silly points which don't hold up. A referendum is the best form of democracy as it is what the people want at that time, you couldn't get a better form of democracy/choice. The only reason you and the EU don't like the idea of a referendum is because you would lose it and the EU would end overnight.

No, this is a point that you and others annoy me about, you say the European Union is to remove restrictions but alexxxx himself gave an example of how it does restrict sovereignty and how it effects independant and sovereign trade agreements between countrys. Collectivism is not free market.

No, from my point if view and that of most Europeans, I do not like our sovereignty being taken away, I do not like the billions upon billions the European Union costs us. I do not like being part of a superstate, I do not like having over 75% of our laws being made in the European Union, I do not like the idea of a EU military, I do not like the idea of the EU passing regulations on our business, I do not like the idea of the EUs financial records having billions missing from them, I do not like the idea of the EU speaking on behalf of us, I do not like the idea of the EU interfering with our courts and laws, I do not like the EU having restrictions on our food/drink, I do not like the EU having restrictions on our farmers and fishermen, I do not like the EU ordering us how to measure in metric rather than imperial.. I could go on, so even if leaving the EU and having export/import tax back was a bit more expensive than staying in the European Union (which it wouldn't be) then i'd rather pay that extra money rather than have those things above - anyday.

[LuketheDuke]

The only collective trait of the EU economy is the regulations that everyone agrees to put on it to keep the markets in balance. That happens EVERYWHERE.

If we go from the EU we withdraw from one of the most powerful economies in the world and in the midst of a financial recession do you really think its wise to bail? Things would be more expensive its simple economics, study what Sir Robert Peel did in the 1840's, he removed all duties on goods and scrapped internal english corn laws to open up a free trade economy. If we were an independent functioning nation we would HAVE to barter new trading laws with other countries, try and stimulate agriculture past whats faesable for such a small country (USA dont have these problems due to diverse climate) and end up paying that in our taxes.

And lol at your referenda point that they are the best type of democracy. I vote on my issues in elections as thats who Im giving my mandate too as I know thats binding, referendums hold no power or meaning and thats the way it is. A better thing to do would be vote a party in based on their manifesto, Labour flip flopped on it, Tories cant decide on it as Mr Cameron knows the minimal stance we have in the EU is a safe bet so vote UKIP although I doubt theyd get in.


And can you please PLEASE stop saying me and most europeans when you state your own opinions as basically your making it up to try and add value to what your saying. Spain had a referendum on the EU and they voted yes for the Lisbon Treaty. Going to add that into your argument or because it doesnt suit you youl just ignore it and bang on with 75% blahblah yawn yawn

Ive always learnt in debates you have to study counter arguments as its the best form of furthering your own understanding of the matter at hand. I just dont know why you arent allowing this debate to perhaps progress by accepting what the EU does, even if you dont like it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The only collective trait of the EU economy is the regulations that everyone agrees to put on it to keep the markets in balance. That happens EVERYWHERE.

If we go from the EU we withdraw from one of the most powerful economies in the world and in the midst of a financial recession do you really think its wise to bail? Things would be more expensive its simple economics, study what Sir Robert Peel did in the 1840's, he removed all duties on goods and scrapped internal english corn laws to open up a free trade economy. If we were an independent functioning nation we would HAVE to barter new trading laws with other countries, try and stimulate agriculture past whats faesable for such a small country (USA dont have these problems due to diverse climate) and end up paying that in our taxes.

And lol at your referenda point that they are the best type of democracy. I vote on my issues in elections as thats who Im giving my mandate too as I know thats binding, referendums hold no power or meaning and thats the way it is. A better thing to do would be vote a party in based on their manifesto, Labour flip flopped on it, Tories cant decide on it as Mr Cameron knows the minimal stance we have in the EU is a safe bet so vote UKIP although I doubt theyd get in.


And can you please PLEASE stop saying me and most europeans when you state your own opinions as basically your making it up to try and add value to what your saying. Spain had a referendum on the EU and they voted yes for the Lisbon Treaty. Going to add that into your argument or because it doesnt suit you youl just ignore it and bang on with 75% blahblah yawn yawn

Ive always learnt in debates you have to study counter arguments as its the best form of furthering your own understanding of the matter at hand. I just dont know why you arent allowing this debate to perhaps progress by accepting what the EU does, even if you dont like it.

No, the European Union regulations on economy affect fishing, agriculture and so on, right down to the size of vegtables and fruit so you are wrong.

Things would not be more expensive, infact GommeInc gave an example in another thread which you can find here, below;

As far as I can tell, that's due to the EU and they're the ones to blame for the 6% rise. Who sets that level? The EU, because individual countries cannot/would not set that level. It's like individual businesses trading with one another, they'll do it easily and for cheap (or free) because they need to trade to grow. It's why companies don't trade off their goods with a percentage of interest on top of it, instead, the sell of their goods for less than what consumers would buy them for - Sort of like VAT free rules.

An example could be at school. Individuals can trade their lunch for other food. Then individuals form a group, and they want to sell off their lunch with an extra percentage on-top of that - so a sandwich plus 20p. That 6% rise would only exist, because the EU have made it exist, that 6% would actually cease to exist if the EU weren't anti-competitive.

The only thing that I seem to agree on is free-trading and freedom to go around the EU, of course with limits. I don't agree with the idea of the EU signing away national identity. Soon people will refer to France as "the EU" because that's how the EU will market itself.

I can find no evidence of Spain having a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, would you like to link me to a source which shows Spain had a referendum on the Libson Treaty? - You may say i'm ignoring 'it' to benefit my side of the discussion, but the fact is that only the Republic of Ireland has held a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, so who really is making it all up?

Referendums do hold power, they are the most accurate vote you can get as they are for one issue and cannot/are rarely ignored by governing governments. You have totally ignored what I said about general elections, in your logic, being useless if they are below 50%. As for the 75%+ argument, this is a widely acknowledged figure and just goes to show you do not like me saying it do you, because it makes the European Union look as bad as it is.

I won't accept the European Union and one day it will collapse, one day people will be given a say and it we all know what the answer is. I shall ask the question again, if the EU is so popular why don't the governments of the European Union or the European Union itself hold referendums on its existence? - one reason and one reason alone, it knows it will fall apart overnight if we are given a say.

[LuketheDuke]

The regulation of industries such as agriculture look into sustainability and environmental viability which I think doesnt lead directly into the economic camp. I think its a good thing that quotas are put on such things as we cant gamble on stable food stuffs, otherwise if numbers are in decline and demand rises youd start to see illegal fishing and silly prices.

And I agree GommeInc raises a point that a raise in 6% of prices could well be artificial, however I think that 26 other competitive countries who may I add are striving to rebuild themselves after a financial crisis would want to keep trade cheap to stimulate their individual economies as paying over the odds at this time is illogical. We leave we pay more, we may reap benefits in 10 or so years time but in 10 years time the EU will generate more than 25% of the Worlds GDP.

And no referenda dont hold power, look here to view countries who voted yes on the EU

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3954327.stm

Look here to find out that 75% is a myth

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/blog/2009/02/eu-scare-stories-coincide-with-euro.html

You may say their biased but heck at least Im backing up points eh?

[-:Undertaker:-]

The regulation of industries such as agriculture look into sustainability and environmental viability which I think doesnt lead directly into the economic camp. I think its a good thing that quotas are put on such things as we cant gamble on stable food stuffs, otherwise if numbers are in decline and demand rises youd start to see illegal fishing and silly prices.

And I agree GommeInc raises a point that a raise in 6% of prices could well be artificial, however I think that 26 other competitive countries who may I add are striving to rebuild themselves after a financial crisis would want to keep trade cheap to stimulate their individual economies as paying over the odds at this time is illogical. We leave we pay more, we may reap benefits in 10 or so years time but in 10 years time the EU will generate more than 25% of the Worlds GDP.

And no referenda dont hold power, look here to view countries who voted yes on the EU

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3954327.stm

Look here to find out that 75% is a myth

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/blog/2009/02/eu-scare-stories-coincide-with-euro.html

You may say their biased but heck at least Im backing up points eh?

Hang on, you have just gone back on what you were arguing about. You said prices would increase, I said they wouldn't and would infact go down and used Gommes' example and now you say its a good thing. Your all over the place.

The European Union is not free market at all, they control the number of imports/exports, the prices, what is and is not allowed such as the size of vegtables and fruit - collectivism is not free market. It is the opposite. Free means free, individual and independant, the European Union is the opposite of that.

I think your confused between ratified and referendum, you said Spain had had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty which was wrong. The Republic of Ireland is the only country to of held a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and only because its government legally had to, thanks to the Irish constitution which means when sovereignty is at stake, a referendum has to be held.

As for your 75% is a myth, you expect to prove me wrong via a blog on the internet by a euro-loving MEP? - If you would like me to, I could quote UKIP and other euro-sceptic partys all the time and we'd just have a mish-mash of quotes/links which isn't explaining anything. The 75% figure is widely accepted and is quite acurrate I believe, thousands of laws and regulations which aren't even needed/are a hinderence are imposed on the United Kingdom every year by the European Union.

You have backed away on the cost of the European Union, firstly denying its cost and then saying the 6% was a good thing, then you also were caught in the act making the Kingdom of Spain referendum claim up from thin air - you really need to get your discussion/idealogy in order.

[alexxxxx]

The European Union is not free market at all, they control the number of imports/exports, the prices, what is and is not allowed such as the size of vegtables and fruit - collectivism is not free market. It is the opposite. Free means free, individual and independant, the European Union is the opposite of that.
The EU does not control imports/exports between member states and there is an import tax into the european union, just as there is at the US border. They don't actually continue to regulate the size and shape of vegetables anymore. We're not talking about collectivism in the sense of a a socialist/commusit reigime but countries taking collective decisions across the continent. It IS a free market. A free market is a market where goods can be traded with no government inteference. Therefore the EU allows us to trade with the Netherlands without our goods being taxed at the border. The EU (and national) governements regulate certain areas such as the Fianancial services, chemical processing and food in interests of public safety or trying to keep the markets stable. Common rules on products makes it easier for everyone to trade with each other as a good produced to the specifications in Bulgaria is allowed to be sold in Malta, whereas if the maltese government hasn't tested a paricular chemical in the product, this might not have been allowed to have been sold. Free Markets aren't individual and independant, they are heavily integrated to allow trade with less government inteferance (therefore removing borders, passport checks, import/export duties, insurance) and allowing consumers to be able to find the lowest price possible. That is a free market. TBF, the EU isn't as free as the USA, but it's close.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The EU does not control imports/exports between member states and there is an import tax into the european union, just as there is at the US border. They don't actually continue to regulate the size and shape of vegetables anymore. We're not talking about collectivism in the sense of a a socialist/commusit reigime but countries taking collective decisions across the continent. It IS a free market. A free market is a market where goods can be traded with no government inteference. Therefore the EU allows us to trade with the Netherlands without our goods being taxed at the border. The EU (and national) governements regulate certain areas such as the Fianancial services, chemical processing and food in interests of public safety or trying to keep the markets stable. Common rules on products makes it easier for everyone to trade with each other as a good produced to the specifications in Bulgaria is allowed to be sold in Malta, whereas if the maltese government hasn't tested a paricular chemical in the product, this might not have been allowed to have been sold. Free Markets aren't individual and independant, they are heavily integrated to allow trade with less government inteferance (therefore removing borders, passport checks, import/export duties, insurance) and allowing consumers to be able to find the lowest price possible. That is a free market. TBF, the EU isn't as free as the USA, but it's close.

It does not matter whether the country is socialist, communist, monarchy, republic - anything. If the market is together and controlled like that then it is a command economy, a collective economy. Free markets are free, hence the word free in them. You yourself gave an example of how the Kingdom of Spain would be unable to sign such a treaty due to the European Union, that is not free market.

Free market enables that sovereign country to sign a trade/other treaty with whichever country it wants, and both work on a trade deal which suits them both. The borders of Europe haven't been abolished, they are just unchecked, for now at least before the European Union decides to abolish internal border marks.

The United States does have a a free market, we, the United Kingdom and all nations of the European Union do not. If you have the European Union telling you which vegtables/fruit of a certain size you are not allowed to sell - that is not free market.

If we were indeed free market the European Union would not exist, as it is the opposite of free market, the word free plays a large part.

[LuketheDuke]

The reason why I linked you to that bbc article was to stop your france and netherlands argument as they havent had referenda on the Lisbon Treaty either if we're going to be precise, however on the subject of the EU countries have said yes. So not all "europeans" are with you.

Prices would not go down, if you think that withdrawing from a market which is free of regulation would somehow all of a sudden put prices down than your confused. You also seem to ignore the FM argument and just talk about nationalism, "a true FM would be in Britain" etcetc. If youve got beef with national identity and the EU than be my guest and complain as I understand people who say it even if I dont have sympathetic views. However for you to rally on about how Britain could be better off without being involved in the super economy of the EU and trying to label it as some sort of evil socialist tool is just wrong.

Please look up the Corn Laws which Britain used in the 19th century, maybe collectivisation used in Communist Russia for socio-economic control.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The reason why I linked you to that bbc article was to stop your france and netherlands argument as they havent had referenda on the Lisbon Treaty either if we're going to be precise, however on the subject of the EU countries have said yes. So not all "europeans" are with you.

Prices would not go down, if you think that withdrawing from a market which is free of regulation would somehow all of a sudden put prices down than your confused. You also seem to ignore the FM argument and just talk about nationalism, "a true FM would be in Britain" etcetc. If youve got beef with national identity and the EU than be my guest and complain as I understand people who say it even if I dont have sympathetic views. However for you to rally on about how Britain could be better off without being involved in the super economy of the EU and trying to label it as some sort of evil socialist tool is just wrong.

Please look up the Corn Laws which Britain used in the 19th century, maybe collectivisation used in Communist Russia for socio-economic control.

I never said France and the Netherlands had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, I said all three countrys had referendum on reformal of the European Union which means the Libson Treaty and the former EU Consitution. My point still stands as you have just failed now, as I said from the start; the only three countrys which held a rederendum on EU reform all turned it down. You have just made something up, yet again.

We would be better off though, why do you think the European Union itself doesn't want a healthy debate on the European Union, why do you think Labour does not want a debate or referendum on the European Union. I have said before, even if it did cost us more not to be in the European Union (which it wouldn't as fruit/vegtable prices are all higher due to the EU, along with the cost of the regulations on our country) I would rather pay that extra, because the right to govern ourselves as we have for the past 1,000 or so years is priceless.

The argument you and all the left wing side give is that the European Union saves money, which I do not believe it does, apart from that since when was the left so concerned with money and finance, lets go back to the 1970s where socialism was rampant, the country was a mess and was bankrupt. Infact, at this very minute the country is plunging into debt from another Labour government yet it still sees it fit to pay billions to the European Union, when it should be the EU paying us at the moment as we are in debt, we have a government which is happy to give millions, if not billions to countrys such as Nigeria, India and the Peoples Republic of China and we have a government which refuses to cut spending which is unaffordable and refuses to cut red tape to save money - so don't give me the money argument again.

I hope your not suggesting the collectivisation used in the Soviet Union was good because millions starved. I have given examples of how command economy/collectivisation has failed time and time again, North Korea, Soviet Union, Peoples Republic of China under Chairman Mao and finally the United Kingdom in the 1970s.

To say the European Union isn't to the left is a fairytale, the European Union has had cabinet failures in it throughout, Peter Mandelson and Neil Kinnock - two of the worst and most hated politicians this country has ever seen.

You can't seem to understand the fact we haven't been given a referendum means they know it will lose, so i'd say at this point in time i'm in a pretty strong position to speak on behalf of Europe, because they and I are not getting a say on this European superstate that is being created, unwillingly, before our eyes.

[LuketheDuke]

You said that the only 3 countries who had a say on the Treaty turned it down, so you did suggest that France and the Netherlands rejected the LT. I dont get how thats making stuff up, no need to be abusive too. :S

-Our argument on the free markets isnt going anywhere but the last thing Ill say is that why in a free market situation would EU goods be sold at artificially high prices if no duty has been collected on them? Im not even sure thats legal. So what basis do you know theres secret EU taxes slapped on goods, please post evidence.
-Collective farming was used in Stalinist Russia, I have no idea why your accusing me of mocking dead gulags when all I said is if you want a good idea of CF they used it back then.
-Neil Kinnock is not a hate figure, neither was socialism hated in the 70's even if Labour did get voted out, so did the Tories in 97 so whats your point? You make it sound like Godzilla fgs. Many would say Thatcher is a hated politician so your argument just sounds like bias. If it wasnt for Labour we wouldnt have the NHS and we'd be at the mercy of health insurance industries like the USA is.
-Im not depriving you of a referendum just learn that they arent binding as we have no constitutional stance on them. Id much rather vote for a party in an election who has a stance on such a thing, ie UKIP.
-Finally you dont know there would be a loss on a referenda, neither do you know Europe agrees with your opinion as the Spaniards voted 77% in favour for it., whereas many other small nations such as Luxumborg have parties who have gathered high opinion polls on wanting corperation with European ties.

I have no problem with an issue of national identity as I know thats important to a lot of people which can stir resentment towards the EU, but to be so sensationalist and label it a superstate is pedantic, Britain isnt called Europeland is it?

Thats me done with this thread.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You said that the only 3 countries who had a say on the Treaty turned it down, so you did suggest that France and the Netherlands rejected the LT. I dont get how thats making stuff up, no need to be abusive too. :S

-Our argument on the free markets isnt going anywhere but the last thing Ill say is that why in a free market situation would EU goods be sold at artificially high prices if no duty has been collected on them? Im not even sure thats legal. So what basis do you know theres secret EU taxes slapped on goods, please post evidence.
-Collective farming was used in Stalinist Russia, I have no idea why your accusing me of mocking dead gulags when all I said is if you want a good idea of CF they used it back then.
-Neil Kinnock is not a hate figure, neither was socialism hated in the 70's even if Labour did get voted out, so did the Tories in 97 so whats your point? You make it sound like Godzilla fgs. Many would say Thatcher is a hated politician so your argument just sounds like bias. If it wasnt for Labour we wouldnt have the NHS and we'd be at the mercy of health insurance industries like the USA is.
-Im not depriving you of a referendum just learn that they arent binding as we have no constitutional stance on them. Id much rather vote for a party in an election who has a stance on such a thing, ie UKIP.
-Finally you dont know there would be a loss on a referenda, neither do you know Europe agrees with your opinion as the Spaniards voted 77% in favour for it., whereas many other small nations such as Luxumborg have parties who have gathered high opinion polls on wanting corperation with European ties.

I have no problem with an issue of national identity as I know thats important to a lot of people which can stir resentment towards the EU, but to be so sensationalist and label it a superstate is pedantic, Britain isnt called Europeland is it?

Thats me done with this thread.

I did not say the treaty, I said reform on the European Union. The Libson Treaty and EU Consitution are the same anyway, even supporters of it admit it so it wouldn't make any difference regardless. The Libson Treaty was voted down by the Republic of Ireland and the EU Consitution was voted down by the French and Dutch - need we say more on how 'popular' the European Union is?

GommeInc posted evidence on this, we also know prices are higher on vegtables and fruit because the European Union puts caps on them/regulations - we come to this point again, the European Union is controlling our agrictulure, fishing, importing and exporting - that is not the mark of a sovereign state.

Socialism was hated in the 1970s, the country was bankrupt and we had to appeal to the IMF in 1979. 1979 was a turning point in British history, if you think people actually enjoyed being poor, enjoyed having strikes imposed on them and enjoyed the unions controlling the government then I have no hope at all for you.

Thatcher accomplished something, Neil Kinnock didn't. He had and still has no talent, hence why he was in the European Union. He is unelectable here so he was thrown into the EU, he also disagreed with the House of Lords yet accepted to be admitted into the House of Lords - I don't think there has ever been a bigger tosspot than Neil Kinnock, well on second thoughts maybe Michael Foot.

You may well rather to vote a party in that way, but the public want a referendum, again I shall ask why do you think we are not being given a referendum on the European Union or European Union reformal? - because it would lose.

Congratulations to Labour for bringing in the NHS, yes the NHS was a very good idea, however that was back in the 1940s and was not in modern times, and in modern times all the Labour Party has done is either back flip on their socialist morals yet continue to say how much they hate Thatcherism, or we could look to the 1970s where Labour nearly destroyed this country, or even now where the national debt of this country has soared and is still soaring, a child would understand that if you cant afford it you cant have it - Labour don't seem to be able to get this message.

The Kingdom of Spain has benefitted massively from the European Union, without EU money (aka the United Kingdoms) Spain would not of been able to have built/progressed as much as it has, however I am not from the Kingdom of Spain and I am from the United Kingdom. The Spanish also did not vote on the Constitution or the Treaty as you claimed they did before, so it was you who was making the story up.

The United Kingdom isn't part of a superstate just yet, it is very close to becoming a superstate, believe me, very close indeed.

[alexxxxx]

It does not matter whether the country is socialist, communist, monarchy, republic - anything. If the market is together and controlled like that then it is a command economy, a collective economy. Free markets are free, hence the word free in them. You yourself gave an example of how the Kingdom of Spain would be unable to sign such a treaty due to the European Union, that is not free market.

Free market enables that sovereign country to sign a trade/other treaty with whichever country it wants, and both work on a trade deal which suits them both. The borders of Europe haven't been abolished, they are just unchecked, for now at least before the European Union decides to abolish internal border marks.

The United States does have a a free market, we, the United Kingdom and all nations of the European Union do not. If you have the European Union telling you which vegtables/fruit of a certain size you are not allowed to sell - that is not free market.

If we were indeed free market the European Union would not exist, as it is the opposite of free market, the word free plays a large part.

You obviously don't understand what a free market is then. Because that isn't it. A free market has nothing to do with countries being able to sign treaties. I'm no longer going to argue with you over the eu/economics because you are too incompetent to argue on such a matter you obviously know nothing about. You're a typical daily mail reader; uninformed, opinionated, argumentative, irrational and unreasonable.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You obviously don't understand what a free market is then. Because that isn't it. A free market has nothing to do with countries being able to sign treaties. I'm no longer going to argue with you over the eu/economics because you are too incompetent to argue on such a matter you obviously know nothing about. You're a typical daily mail reader; uninformed, opinionated, argumentative, irrational and unreasonable.

I find it strange how you all feel the need to bring up the Daily Mail, I could bring up the Guardian all the time but I won't because I can discuss without having to mention newspapers. Free market is the ability to sign your own treaties, you yourself gave the example of the Kingdom of Spain issue telling us how Spain would be unable to sign a treaty with us over the future of British people in Spain, because of the European Union.

Free market is not command economy and not collectivisation, as I have said before, if it was free market the European Union would not need to exist, as that is free market, independant and individual.

[lick]

you should all be given a ban from Current Affairs all you do is argue about europe, i think a debate would be better.

[-:Undertaker:-]

you should all be given a ban from Current Affairs all you do is argue about europe, i think a debate would be better.

Why aren't you posting non-Europe topics then?
This is a current affair and I have every right to post it, just like everyone else can post about Michael Jackson all day long.

[lick]

Why aren't you posting non-Europe topics then?
This is a current affair and I have every right to post it, just like everyone else can post about Michael Jackson all day long.

posting and arguing are two different things, every time someone supports Europe you seem to shot it down without even reading or even thinking about what they have to say, i laughed when alexxx said the comment about "blalalalalalalal im am a rich snob" or something like that because the way you go on it makes you seem that way, and he is right england in not in the 19th century its 2009 things have to change the sooner you get that into your head the better.

[-:Undertaker:-]

posting and arguing are two different things, every time someone supports Europe you seem to shot it down without even reading or even thinking about what they have to say, i laughed when alexxx sayid the comment about "blalalalalalalal im am a rich snob" or something like that because the way you go on it makes you seem that way, and he is right england in not in the 19th centery its 2009. things have to change the sooner you get that into your head the better.

In that logic then, lets hand over our country because things 'have to change'. Things have been changing since the world began and the United Kingdom, and former Kingdoms of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland have all existed for a number of years and led the way in the world. If we were desperatly poor and losing influence, then maybe i'd say join the European Union however we are not.

As for rich, i'm not at all and as for snob, well you have just totally ignored all what has been said and jumped in the discussion - who really is the snob?. I'll discuss with people, thats what a forum is for, you on the other hand would prefer not to as I am pretty sure you don't have a clue what your on about and are hoping to score some 'forum points' with remarks like that.

[lick]

In that logic then, lets hand over our country because things 'have to change'. Things have been changing since the world began and the United Kingdom, and former Kingdoms of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland have all existed for a number of years and led the way in the world. If we were desperatly poor and losing influence, then maybe i'd say join the European Union however we are not.

As for rich, i'm not at all and as for snob, well you have just totally ignored all what has been said and jumped in the discussion - who really is the snob?. I'll discuss with people, thats what a forum is for, you on the other hand would prefer not to as I am pretty sure you don't have a clue what your on about and are hoping to score some 'forum points' with remarks like that.

There you go not reading things, I never said you was a snob i said when i alexxx made that comment i laughed because its the way you act

[-:Undertaker:-]

There you go not reading things, I never said you was a snob i said when i alexxx made that comment i laughed because its the way you act

I never said you called me a snob, I said you are acting like one. Your 'reply' to what I wrote on the European Union sums your attitude up nicely really, the lights are on but nobodys home. There is nothing wrong with debate and although I don't agree with what alexxxxx is saying, at least he will defend his corner and discuss it, whereas you haven't had anything to say in your reply which is a shame because all that will lead to now is real arguing/pointless replies over eachother, which has led the topic off course and will only get us in trouble, so for that reason; the end.