New high-speed rail plan unveiled.

[StefanWolves]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8221540.stm


Network Rail has proposed a new £34bn ($55bn) high-speed railway line linking Scotland and London by 2030.
The line will serve Birmingham and Manchester, getting passengers from Glasgow to London in just two hours and 16 minutes, the rail firm said.

They say it's going to be much like Frances super-fast rail service, and it's about time we had it over here, even if we do have to wait another 20 years. :P

Good news? money well spent for once IMO.

[Technologic]

id rather take a plane tbh

[xxMATTGxx]

id rather take a plane tbh

I would laugh if the UK banned them flights when we get better railways. I guess its money well spent, faster train lines = good. :P

[Hecktix]

Last time I read about this it was meant to be ready by 2018

[LuketheDuke]

if it says prices are gonna be 30% more expensive when these rail links open i think network rail have another thing coming.

[hamheyelliot]

It sounds great, but I don't like the idea of a great big strip of metal running all the way up the UK.

[jam666]

Sounds good, however they have left half of the country without high speed rail... (east of england)...

Yet another disgrace and waste of money since it excludes a large proportion of people.

[Sammeth.]

Someone got ran over by a train today at my local station and I had to wait an hour to get home from work. I think they died though which is a shame :( The morale of the story is trains are no good, even fast ones :@

[Caution]

It's v. depressing knowing I'll be 36 when it opens. But it can only be good I suppose.

[StefanWolves]

Lol! yeh, it can only be good, if ******* dirty France can have it, why can't we? :P

[GommeInc]

if it says prices are gonna be 30% more expensive when these rail links open i think network rail have another thing coming.
Haven't Netword Rail realised that high prices are the quickest way to go bankrupt or abandon plans :S National Express did that with East Anglia trains, now they're abandoning ship and giving the lines back to the government, and retreating back to buses, all because they can't price tickets for... Whatever replacement for the S word there is :P

[StefanWolves]

I'd rather pay the extra and get to my destination in a much quicker time if im honest.

[Sammeth.]

I'd rather pay the extra and get to my destination in a much quicker time if im honest.
Same, it took me 2 hours to get to London from Birmingham earlier this year and that was well tedious, I would rather pay more and get there in 45 minutes.

[GommeInc]

I'd rather pay the extra and get to my destination in a much quicker time if im honest.
That's fine for a high-speed train, but from what looks to of been proposed, there are only going to be a few high-speed train lines (Surrey/Kent to London. London to Manchester/Scotland).

If train tickets for the normal train lines go up, then train companies are going to notice passenger numbers drop. The United Kingdom has the worst prices for trains, but apparently has the most frequen (though arguable). They should follow the lead from Germany and Holland, who have decent priced trains, that arrive frequently, and the services provided are just as decent :/

[StefanWolves]

I live 15 minutes from Birmingham (can catch the tram their, takes like 20mins tops), so it's not as bad for me. :)

And that service will come, but first we need our rail lines updated, and this is the first step IMO.

[J0SH]

Yeah it's good news. If I ever decide to go back to Scotland seems it'll only be 2 hours, even if it'll take 20 years to build.. But it's better than flying, I know flying takes an hour but travelling and risk of getting delayed etc, it'll work out better to take this new train.

[UKIP]

I don't see why Scotland needs to be linked, Scotland only has a small population and I doubt many will be coming down into England or Wales because as we know theres some strange hate of us from up there.

I dont see point in it really, France most likely had its train service paid for by us in some way or another as usual. We have low cost flights such as RyanAir and easyJet which will make the new line a waste of money.

[StefanWolves]

France most likely had its train service paid for by us in some way or another as usual

please elaborate, i have a lot of hate for the french, so some more wouldn't hurt.

[UKIP]

please elaborate, i have a lot of hate for the french, so some more wouldn't hurt.

The European Union, simple as that. The French have worked the European Union in a way that it benefits from the EU greatly, particuarly concerning farming so in a way, we have paid for it one way or another.

It wouldn't suprise me if we'd of given them a direct grant to build their railways anyway, we pay for everyone and anything, the exception being ourselves.

[alexxxxx]

The European Union, simple as that. The French have worked the European Union in a way that it benefits from the EU greatly, particuarly concerning farming so in a way, we have paid for it one way or another.

It wouldn't suprise me if we'd of given them a direct grant to build their railways anyway, we pay for everyone and anything, the exception being ourselves.

backing up your arguments as usual again. great post +rep

[UKIP]

backing up your arguments as usual again. great post +rep

The farming policy of the European Union benefits the French greatly compared to other nations, because the French have vast numbers of fields which can grow food. Why do you think the French government are so keen on the European Union?.. then again, we could ask the same on why Labour are so keen on the European Union - because thats where they get their unelected highly paid jobs after they leave office, disgraced and hated by their home nation; Mandelson, Blair and the Kinnocks + god knows how many more sleeze-ridden liars there are in Brussels, all funded for by us, the British taxpayer while our own roads crumble to pieces and people are refused life-extending drugs because the country apparently has no money.

You're quick to jump to the defence of the European Union (unelected in such modern times) which has accomplished nothing, yet are quick to stamp all over the legacy of the British Empire which brought wealth, jobs, building & healthcare across the world and to the third world.

[alexxxxx]

i'm not denying the legacy, it's there for all to see, i'm just saying it was immoral. The EU has brought stability and prosperity to Europe, easy to see.

where's the backup for your original argument?

[UKIP]

I just provided the backup to my orginal post, if you'd like me to post links to right wing sites then I will do as we could go on all night if we did that and it wouldn't sway the discussion one bit, as i've always said.


i'm not denying the legacy, it's there for all to see, i'm just saying it was immoral. The EU has brought stability and prosperity to Europe, easy to see.

where's the backup for your original argument?

What stability and prosperity has it brought to Europe?

.. did I miss the second coming of Hitler or something?

[alexxxxx]

I just provided the backup to my orginal post, if you'd like me to post links to right wing sites then I will do as we could go on all night if we did that and it wouldn't sway the discussion one bit, as i've always said.



What stability and prosperity has it brought to Europe?

.. did I miss the second coming of Hitler or something?

well exactly, where's hitler number 2? and id love to see these sites that say the EU built the french TGVs. because i know the majority of it came from tolls on autoroutes. I may be wrong and i'm not saying the EU didn't build them, you just have to show me some sort of evidence to back up the claim.

[UKIP]

well exactly, where's hitler number 2?

Oh so because we haven't had another Adolf Hitler recently the European Union stopped him before he could get us, oh right.

If only we'd of known back in the 1930s' that having unelected officals in Brussels ruling us while being made to pay billions into an organisation in which billions have gone missing from its financial books would have saved us from having to go through the trouble of world war two.

"unelected officals" - oh hang on! that was Hitlers job!

[alexxxxx]

Oh so because we haven't had another Adolf Hitler recently the European Union stopped him before he could get us, oh right.

If only we'd of known back in the 1930s' that having unelected officals in Brussels ruling us while being made to pay billions into an organisation in which billions have gone missing from its financial books would have saved us from having to go through the trouble of world war two.

"unelected officals" - oh hang on! that was Hitlers job!

Hitler was elected. plus, i think that an organisation like that would have helped indeed. The League Of Nations, what the UN evolved from, was dreadful, it intentionally isolated Germany, infact, it provoked it with the treaty of versailles, so yes, you could say that a stable europe economically could have prevented WW2.

You could then say that the stability after world war two and more cooperation economically has prevented wars. You only have to look at former Yugislavia, ex-comminist, but independent of the USSR to see nations ruined by war, as they were less developed economically and socially.

Oh also, where's this evidence?

[StefanWolves]

Wow, why does every thread that 'UKIP' posts in always turn into an argument or some sort of a debate that is not on-topc?? fgs guys, stop it.

[alexxxxx]

sorry. i won't do it again.

[StefanWolves]

sorry. i won't do it again.

put it this way, 1% of my post was directed at you, 99% at UKIP, :P.

[UKIP]

Hitler was elected. plus, i think that an organisation like that would have helped indeed. The League Of Nations, what the UN evolved from, was dreadful, it intentionally isolated Germany, infact, it provoked it with the treaty of versailles, so yes, you could say that a stable europe economically could have prevented WW2.

You could then say that the stability after world war two and more cooperation economically has prevented wars. You only have to look at former Yugislavia, ex-comminist, but independent of the USSR to see nations ruined by war, as they were less developed economically and socially.

Oh also, where's this evidence?

Hitler was elected first time around through bullying tactics and cheating, Hitler then abolished elections which means he wasn't electedand at least Hitler actually gained some support, since when have we ever been asked who we want to be in command of the European Union, let alone if we even want it or if we want it to gather more sovereign powers?.. oh thats right, Ireland, France & the Netherlands all did get asked that last question, and they all said no but it fell on deaf ears (suprise suprise).

If a stable Europe would of prevented World War II, then why now did the European Union fail to avoid the recent financial crisis which could of quite easily of turned into a depression far worse than the one before World War II. The European Union has solved, done, fixed or prevented jack all.

I think the organisation you are looking for is called NATO which protected Europe from the advance of the socialist USSR, not the European Union; and if you think the European Union has prevented Europe going into another World War then you have just been brainwashed by Brussels completely and your assured your place on the EU gravy train.

As for the evidence I never actually said the high speed trains were paid for by the European Union/us, I said it was most likely paid for by us/European Union which in other words means the British taxpayer.


Wow, why does every thread that 'UKIP' posts in always turn into an argument or some sort of a debate that is not on-topc?? fgs guys, stop it.

Wow, why does everytime I post in this forum can you not wait to say something like that? (again and again).

Why does every post I have posted on this account and my other account have the same reply posted from you all the time, you're not involved and don't want to be involved I presume, so lets keep it that way?.

[StefanWolves]

Hitler was elected first time around through bullying tactics and cheating, Hitler then abolished elections which means he wasn't electedand at least Hitler actually gained some support, since when have we ever been asked who we want to be in command of the European Union, let alone if we even want it or if we want it to gather more sovereign powers?.. oh thats right, Ireland, France & the Netherlands all did get asked that last question, and they all said no but it fell on deaf ears (suprise suprise).

If a stable Europe would of prevented World War II, then why now did the European Union fail to avoid the recent financial crisis which could of quite easily of turned into a depression far worse than the one before World War II. The European Union has solved, done, fixed or prevented jack all.

I think the organisation you are looking for is called NATO which protected Europe from the advance of the socialist USSR, not the European Union; and if you think the European Union has prevented Europe going into another World War then you have just been brainwashed by Brussels completely and your assured your place on the EU gravy train.

As for the evidence I never actually said the high speed trains were paid for by the European Union/us, I said it was most likely paid for by us/European Union which in other words means the British taxpayer.



Wow, why does everytime I post in this forum can you not wait to say something like that? (again and again).

Why does every post I have posted on this account and my other account have the same reply posted from you all the time, you're not involved and don't want to be involved I presume, so lets keep it that way?.

in case you aint noticed this is my thread, and it has nothing to do about ukip of any other national parties.

[UKIP]

in case you aint noticed this is my thread, and it has nothing to do about ukip of any other national parties.

I don't remember mentioning UKIP in this thread, infact I dont even think I have; so where are you getting that from?

[StefanWolves]

in case you aint noticed this is my thread, and it has nothing to do about ukip or any other national parties.

Check the bold writing.
Wow, it's gotten the point now, where I need to quote myself??

[GommeInc]

The European Union, simple as that. The French have worked the European Union in a way that it benefits from the EU greatly, particuarly concerning farming so in a way, we have paid for it one way or another.

It wouldn't suprise me if we'd of given them a direct grant to build their railways anyway, we pay for everyone and anything, the exception being ourselves.
One (hopefully) new major line, which is costing a few billion to re-open and make in this country, is paid by the EU. Since finding out that, my view on the EU is a little less critical :P Though for the sake of argument, it could of been paid for by us if the EU wasn't charging the UK millions each month.

[UKIP]

Check the bold writing.
Wow, it's gotten the point now, where I need to quote myself??


in case you aint noticed this is my thread, and it has nothing to do about ukip of any other national parties.

1. I didn't mention UKIP at all.
2. We haven't been discussing political parties, I have mentioned Labour once I think and thats about it, we're talking about history and international politics, not domestic parties.


One (hopefully) new major line, which is costing a few billion to re-open and make in this country, is paid by the EU. Since finding out that, my view on the EU is a little less critical :P Though for the sake of argument, it could of been paid for by us if the EU wasn't charging the UK millions each month.

It is like me, giving you £1 to spend on me, but you keeping 50p for yourself and only spending 50p back on me, meaning you've just robbed me blind.

[StefanWolves]

1. I didn't mention UKIP at all.
2. We haven't been discussing political parties, I have mentioned Labour once I think and thats about it, we're talking about history and international politics, not domestic parties.



It is like me, giving you £1 to spend on me, but you keeping 50p for yourself and only spending 50p back on me, meaning you've just robbed me blind.

Why do you have to turn everything into a debate? leading onto an argument?

Anyway, IDC lmao, going bed, ciao.

[UKIP]

Why do you have to turn everything into a debate? leading onto an argument?

Anyway, IDC lmao, going bed, ciao.

Whats wrong with a debate, its not against forum rules therefore i'm entitled to. Afterall it wasn't me who turned it into a debate anyway. It seems like that as soon as alexxx starts discussing his point of view, you cant seem to resist posting pointless comments alongside my side of the discussion, yet when alexxx isn't posting, you dont seem to be interested in doing so then.

[alexxxxx]

Hitler was elected first time around through bullying tactics and cheating, Hitler then abolished elections which means he wasn't electedand at least Hitler actually gained some support, since when have we ever been asked who we want to be in command of the European Union, let alone if we even want it or if we want it to gather more sovereign powers?.. oh thats right, Ireland, France & the Netherlands all did get asked that last question, and they all said no but it fell on deaf ears (suprise suprise).

If a stable Europe would of prevented World War II, then why now did the European Union fail to avoid the recent financial crisis which could of quite easily of turned into a depression far worse than the one before World War II. The European Union has solved, done, fixed or prevented jack all.

I think the organisation you are looking for is called NATO which protected Europe from the advance of the socialist USSR, not the European Union; and if you think the European Union has prevented Europe going into another World War then you have just been brainwashed by Brussels completely and your assured your place on the EU gravy train.

As for the evidence I never actually said the high speed trains were paid for by the European Union/us, I said it was most likely paid for by us/European Union which in other words means the British taxpayer.

Hitler's party was elected more than once and gained more and more power. The European Union has solved countless issues and passed many resolutions that help shape this continent as it is today, a stable democracy. Everything else you say is pure opinion. The European Union was at very little fault to the crisis we just had, it's related to international banks in crisis and it could be argued that the common stance we used helped to cool the crisis and now alot of the member states are out of recession. You can't make claims like 'probably did this.' I could say you probably raped and killed someone last week, but it doesn't make it ok to say that as it wasn't true.

That's the end of it.

[Jordy]

Hitler's party was elected more than once and gained more and more power. The European Union has solved countless issues and passed many resolutions that help shape this continent as it is today, a stable democracy. Everything else you say is pure opinion. The European Union was at very little fault to the crisis we just had, it's related to international banks in crisis and it could be argued that the common stance we used helped to cool the crisis and now alot of the member states are out of recession. You can't make claims like 'probably did this.' I could say you probably raped and killed someone last week, but it doesn't make it ok to say that as it wasn't true.

That's the end of it.Dan timeout, Jordy in?

Hitler was unelected in his later years it has to be said so he was in no way a legitimate leader of a legitimate democracy. Hence why fascism is strongly linked to Hitler :rolleyes:

What are these countless issues the EU has solved?

It has passed no resolutions to help Europe become a stable democracy. I don't consider Italy a Stable Democracy considering it's riddled with corruption. The EU hasn't stepped in? Infact I haven't even heard the EU comment on the issue. If it helped get rid of corruption in countries then I would agree, it would of contributed to a stable democracy.

Who really made Europe a mostly stable democracy? NATO as previously mentioned, they thankfully stopped any war with the Eastern pack ever happening, not any EU group, they weren't involved in the Cold War at all. The other people we have to thank are the noble servicemen who fought for the Allies in World War II.

We owe these two groups, everything.

[UKIP]

Hitler's party was elected more than once and gained more and more power. The European Union has solved countless issues and passed many resolutions that help shape this continent as it is today, a stable democracy. Everything else you say is pure opinion. The European Union was at very little fault to the crisis we just had, it's related to international banks in crisis and it could be argued that the common stance we used helped to cool the crisis and now alot of the member states are out of recession. You can't make claims like 'probably did this.' I could say you probably raped and killed someone last week, but it doesn't make it ok to say that as it wasn't true.

That's the end of it.

I have to say, at least Adolf Hitler actually won an election, whereas the EU has lost all referendums concerning reformal and refuses to give nations a say on whether or not they even want the European Union.

Oh you're totally right, telling us what light bulbs we can use and how many millimetres wide our apples can be has made the world of difference, and has no doubt averted World War III.

[alexxxxx]

I have to say, at least Adolf Hitler actually won an election, whereas the EU has lost all referendums concerning reformal and refuses to give nations a say on whether or not they even want the European Union.

Oh you're totally right, telling us what light bulbs we can use and how many millimetres wide our apples can be has made the world of difference, and has no doubt averted World War III.

okay, it's already been established that you don't understand what a democracy is, so let's not talk about how the people in government are meant to represent the people and they are meant to vote in how their constituency want them to. Because essentially, that's how it's meant to work.

Let's go through what the EU has achieved:

- A stable Europe with relatively good economic growth
- Free movement of goods, services, labour and capital.
- Schengen Agreement (ie, no passports through internal borders)
- Common documents to make it easier for those abroad to claim on health care and to drive
- Human Rights Laws
- A common market with common rules on goods to make it easier for firms to sell goods.
- Collective agreements on some foreign policy (ie with Iran, Georgian Crisis, Zimbabwe) to enact economic sanctions which carry alot of weight.
- Better University co-operation (EURAMAS (sp?) exchange programs), EU citizens pay roughly the same rate for university abroad.
- Joint-Research combining the best expertise from around europe in scientific and other fields
- Funding thousands and thousands of projects around europe which may be overlooked by national governments
- European Court
- External Trade deals
- Loans to small businesses
- Protection of local cultures and languages
- enviromental protection
- Humanitarian aid
- europol

and alloootttttttttttttttttttttttt more.

Jordy, the EU commission has asked Italy to obey human rights laws regarding the discrimination of Roma in Italy, Italy is corrupt, but it isn't up to the rest of the EU to run member states themselves, they have their own sovereignty.

viva europe.

[UKIP]

okay, it's already been established that you don't understand what a democracy is, so let's not talk about how the people in government are meant to represent the people and they are meant to vote in how their constituency want them to. Because essentially, that's how it's meant to work.

Let's go through what the EU has achieved:

- A stable Europe with relatively good economic growth
- Free movement of goods, services, labour and capital.
- Schengen Agreement (ie, no passports through internal borders)
- Common documents to make it easier for those abroad to claim on health care and to drive
- Human Rights Laws
- A common market with common rules on goods to make it easier for firms to sell goods.
- Collective agreements on some foreign policy (ie with Iran, Georgian Crisis, Zimbabwe) to enact economic sanctions which carry alot of weight.
- Better University co-operation (EURAMAS (sp?) exchange programs), EU citizens pay roughly the same rate for university abroad.
- Joint-Research combining the best expertise from around europe in scientific and other fields
- Funding thousands and thousands of projects around europe which may be overlooked by national governments
- European Court
- External Trade deals
- Loans to small businesses
- Protection of local cultures and languages
- enviromental protection
- Humanitarian aid
- europol

and alloootttttttttttttttttttttttt more.

Jordy, the EU commission has asked Italy to obey human rights laws regarding the discrimination of Roma in Italy, Italy is corrupt, but it isn't up to the rest of the EU to run member states themselves, they have their own sovereignty.

viva europe.

No, you don't understand what democracy is. How is it democracy when the European Union is making the Republic of Ireland vote yet again, despite it saying no and other governments around Europe refuse to give their people a referendum on it. You do not understand democracy, nor appreciate it.


- A stable Europe with relatively good economic growth
This was achieved by NATO and the aftermath of World War II onto the Cold War. Italy is unstable to this day with governments collapsing all the time, along with half of Europe being under the thumb of the Soviet Union for decades, with only NATO standing in the way.


- Free movement of goods, services, labour and capital.
The movement of goods has been going on for thousands of years, long before the European Union was even thought of by the corrupt left wingers in Europe. Have you not heard of individual trade agreements?


- Schengen Agreement (ie, no passports through internal borders)
Why is having no sovereign control over our own borders a good thing (especially with criminals and terrorism being so rampant across Europe), have you totally lost the plot?


- Common documents to make it easier for those abroad to claim on health care and to drive
This isn't worth the billions we pay the European Union every year.


- Human Rights Laws
These laws were not made or formed by the government of the United Kingdom, just like the laws across the USSR were made back in Russia. This, again, is not worth billions every year when we could quite easily do this ourselves. The Human Rights act is only their to serve criminals so they can have a nice time, but then again, the left have only ever cared about the criminals/minorities.


- Collective agreements on some foreign policy (ie with Iran, Georgian
Iran and Georgia were not solved anyway, therefore no results yet again from the European Union... more to the point, this overrules national sovereignty yet again.


- Better University co-operation (EURAMAS (sp?) exchange programs), EU citizens pay roughly the same rate for university abroad.
This (again) is not worth billions of taxpayer money every year.


- Joint-Research combining the best expertise from around europe in scientific and other fields
Co-operation in science occurs all the time, regardless of the European Union being around or not.


- Funding thousands and thousands of projects around europe which may be overlooked by national governments
You mean things such as useless art projects, you also can't call it funding because its our money which they are using on all of Europe and some of it on us, which means our government is surrending sovereign rights over taxpayer money to pay for the rest of Europe while the United Kingdoms roads crumble, infastructure ages, nuclear power plants come to the end of their lives and military is strapped for cash.


- European Court
This court has no place in the sovereign state of the United Kingdom and should have no place over sovereign courts, the EU may say it doesn't want a superstate but this is just yet another example that is does want it and it will force it down on us.


- External Trade deals
We have been trading for thousands of years without the European Union, if anything it hinders the process because it means the interests of the United Kingdom are being severed incase of conflict of interests with other European nations.


- Loans to small businesses
The European Union has forced regulation after regulation on small business throughout its existance and like the rest of the United Kingdom and Europe, the European Union is not welcome.


- Protection of local cultures and languages
How is the formation of a European superstate protecting culture and language? - infact as the European Union uses English a lot, its contributing to the spread of English as the world language.


- enviromental protection
..have governments across the world suddenly lost the ability to protect enviroment? - or has the EU been protecting us all along with its poisenous light bulbs its forcing us all to use?


- Humanitarian aid
The European Union is not needed for this, just like the United States, Peoples Republic of China (the rest of the world) can give aid as sovereign countries.


- europol
You mean the new KGB/SS?

Italy has a right, as a sovereign country to evict gypsies (as we should be doing) who rob from the water mains, degenerate an area and are criminals. Italy hasn't suddenly taken action against them for no reason.

..as I said at the start of this, the European Union has solved nothing and I still can't see the World War the European Union has apparently stopped? - oh wait, that was NATO.

[GommeInc]

Why do you have to turn everything into a debate? leading onto an argument?

Anyway, IDC lmao, going bed, ciao.
Debates and arguments are not against the forums rules and never will be. :) Look up the definition of argument, you'll realise that the word argument has two meanings, one which isn't entirely true and the other being true.

An argument is basically what structures a debate - a fact or opinion put forward to counter another already existing argument. UKIP argues (puts forward an argument) that the EU is useless, while alexxxxx puts forth a counter-argument saying it is useful. That's what an argument is, not what people seem to irritatingly believe are two members swearing at each other for the sake of nothing.

Tis a common mis-conception that an argument is a game of verbal fisticuffs when really it's just an opinion or fact being chucked around, to win a debate :P

[You]

It won't be ready by that time and the rolling stock used will be awful.

[StefanWolves]

I agree, it'll almost definately be delayed by another 5-10 years or something ridiculous.

[Alkaz]

Good really. I dont really have no need to go to Glasgo though and there is high-speed rail links from where I live (Ebbsfleet) to london in like 15mins, and the same way to paris :P

[You]

In the mean time, they could allow current HST stock to run up to 135 and some places 140mph.

[StefanWolves]

In the mean time, they could allow current HST stock to run up to 135 and some places 140mph.

In the mean team they will probably also expand every major airport in the UK, most notably probably the West Midlands airports and most of the London airports.

[You]

In the mean team they will probably also expand every major airport in the UK, most notably probably the West Midlands airports and most of the London airports.
You're right. They're just wasting money.

[StefanWolves]

It isn't wasting money, all these things need to be expanded, the population has got bigger, it is getting bigger, peoples needs to go abroad is getting bigger, numbers travelling to the UK for holidays(god knows why)/for business meetings/trips, ect, are getting bigger.

Over all, our needs on these services (trains, planes, motorways) - are getting bigger, so in turn, they must get bigger, which they need to.

[You]

I don't mean they are wasting money by expanding the airports. It is a wise move to do that but bigger airports, mean more frequent flights. Whereas relaying tracks for the railway is a waste, especially when it'll take up to 20 or more years to do. The current lines can easily be adapted to have trains run up to 140 or even 160mph in some parts. Higher line speeds means quicker journey times and more frequent trains.

Although, nothing usually seems to be done right the first time and if it isn't done right the first time, they are wasting money, as within a few years, it'll have to be done again.

[StefanWolves]

AFAIK on the train system, I've heard quite frequently on TV that the rails are getting older, and sooner rather than later that would need to be updated (not to mention the many train crashes that have happened in this country within the last 15 years), why avoid it further? just do it and get it out the way IMO.

[UKIP]

It isn't wasting money, all these things need to be expanded, the population has got bigger, it is getting bigger, peoples needs to go abroad is getting bigger, numbers travelling to the UK for holidays(god knows why)/for business meetings/trips, ect, are getting bigger.

Over all, our needs on these services (trains, planes, motorways) - are getting bigger, so in turn, they must get bigger, which they need to.

It is wasting money, their isn't a demand for a high speed rail service and the chances are that flight charges will be put up when the rail is built just to get people to use the train line. The population is getting bigger, however that doesn't mean we need more public transport especially when the country is in debt and cannot afford basic military needs whilst at war.

The train lines were much bigger and expansive in victorian times, why? - because they didn't have car or air travel back then, hence why the Beeching Report closed many lines which were making a loss (although some lines are being considered to be worthwhile reopening now).

[You]

AFAIK on the train system, I've heard quite frequently on TV that the rails are getting older, and sooner rather than later that would need to be updated (not to mention the many train crashes that have happened in this country within the last 15 years), why avoid it further? just do it and get it out the way IMO.
A lot of the lines are perfect for high speed running. Most of the train crashes in this country in the last 15 or so years lead to the point i made before, of jobs not being done properly. There has just been a 8bn upgrade done to the WCML, they could easily take advantage of that, which the lead TOC on the WCML wants to do but the government are stopping them.

[GommeInc]

Loads of airports don't need expanding. If you follow the news alot of airports are cutting down the number of flights therefore requiring less runway time therefore reducing the need for expansion :) The population is growing, yes, but the cost of travel is rocketing up.

[alexxxxx]

No, you don't understand what democracy is. How is it democracy when the European Union is making the Republic of Ireland vote yet again, despite it saying no and other governments around Europe refuse to give their people a referendum on it. You do not understand democracy, nor appreciate it.


they are not voting on the same thing, ireland has managed to fight for more things in the treaty for themselves and now they are voting again and is expected to pass.


This was achieved by NATO and the aftermath of World War II onto the Cold War. Italy is unstable to this day with governments collapsing all the time, along with half of Europe being under the thumb of the Soviet Union for decades, with only NATO standing in the way.

Security was done by NATO, which many of the EU countries are members of. Economic stability and growth was stemmed



The movement of goods has been going on for thousands of years, long before the European Union was even thought of by the corrupt left wingers in Europe. Have you not heard of individual trade agreements?

'corrupt left wingers' ahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhah ahahahahahahaha good one mate ;) nice for use in an argument. individual trade agreements often have exceptions and a blanket agreement makes it easier and less complicated.


Why is having no sovereign control over our own borders a good thing (especially with criminals and terrorism being so rampant across Europe), have you totally lost the plot?

Infact, if we were in the Schengen area we would have more information on foreign criminals. We are not currently in the schengen area and criminals and terrorists being so rampant is just not true. On the mainland, it's easy for criminals to cross borders without checkpoints. We have an advantage of being an island.


This isn't worth the billions we pay the European Union every year.

This alone doesn't warrant the billions we contribute, no.



These laws were not made or formed by the government of the United Kingdom, just like the laws across the USSR were made back in Russia. This, again, is not worth billions every year when we could quite easily do this ourselves. The Human Rights act is only their to serve criminals so they can have a nice time, but then again, the left have only ever cared about the criminals/minorities.

Daily, daily, daily mail. Daily, daily, daily mail. Daily, daily, daily mail, cause that's the rag you read.

The Human Rights were made with contribution with the UK and are really very important and serve everybody.



Iran and Georgia were not solved anyway, therefore no results yet again from the European Union... more to the point, this overrules national sovereignty yet again.

How do you define 'solved?' with Iran? That they internally destruct and cause more instability in the middle east? Or that economic sanctions make it harder for Iran to achieve their goals? This empowers sovereignty, doesn't take it away, the European Union's say is ALOT more than the UK. The UK being a big player in the EU means that they general serve us, france and germany's interests.



This (again) is not worth billions of taxpayer money every year.

This is a very worth it imo. People from Britain often go to Ireland, The Netherlands, Scandinavia for university. My university course will include a year abroad in France, which is helped by the EU.



Co-operation in science occurs all the time, regardless of the European Union being around or not.

The EU organise it. and the JRC in Italy is a EU-led institution.



You mean things such as useless art projects, you also can't call it funding because its our money which they are using on all of Europe and some of it on us, which means our government is surrending sovereign rights over taxpayer money to pay for the rest of Europe while the United Kingdoms roads crumble, infastructure ages, nuclear power plants come to the end of their lives and military is strapped for cash.

it's not appropriate for the EU to spend money on individual's military and to say 'things like useless art projects' makes me think so badly of people like you. Art enriches lives, environments and is important culturally around Europe. Unfortunately as it doesn't seem to create money, it's therefore worthless, in your opinion. I thought you thought that the power should be privatised? or do you just change your views depending on your argument?


This court has no place in the sovereign state of the United Kingdom and should have no place over sovereign courts, the EU may say it doesn't want a superstate but this is just yet another example that is does want it and it will force it down on us.

The European Court is a VERY good idea because it means people who are failed by the UK courts in some areas can go to the European Court so others can hear their case. ie, when innocent people wanted their DNA removed from police databases.



We have been trading for thousands of years without the European Union, if anything it hinders the process because it means the interests of the United Kingdom are being severed incase of conflict of interests with other European nations.

Idiot. Because of this it means UK exporters don't have to pay import duties in France or Spain or Poland or Czech. It used to happen when countries tried in vain to create a false market by making external firms' goods expensive with duties.


The European Union has forced regulation after regulation on small business throughout its existance and like the rest of the United Kingdom and Europe, the European Union is not welcome.

I personally think there isn't enough regulation in some industries.


How is the formation of a European superstate protecting culture and language? - infact as the European Union uses English a lot, its contributing to the spread of English as the world language.

Infact that's the OPPOSITE of what's happening. The EU has laws and rules regarding minority languages including Welsh and Gaelic. In the parliament, MEPs use their own language. There is no 'official' language of the EU, yet dozens of them.


..have governments across the world suddenly lost the ability to protect enviroment? - or has the EU been protecting us all along with its poisenous light bulbs its forcing us all to use?

United standards makes it easier for companies to produce products that can be sold throughout the region, plus protecting things like waters, forests, mountains and rivers which all cross borders makes sure everyone is happy with how the others are protecting shared natural features.



The European Union is not needed for this, just like the United States, Peoples Republic of China (the rest of the world) can give aid as sovereign countries.

We can buy/produce more in bulk and save money whilst saving the same amount of lives



You mean the new KGB/SS?

No. Because Europol isn't a police force. It's just where european countries can co-operate over cross border criminals.


Italy has a right, as a sovereign country to evict gypsies (as we should be doing) who rob from the water mains, degenerate an area and are criminals. Italy hasn't suddenly taken action against them for no reason.

They do NOT have the right to infringe on Roma's human right's of those who are doing absolutely nothing wrong. In your logic we should throw out all the muslims because some have murdered people on the tube.



..as I said at the start of this, the European Union has solved nothing and I still can't see the World War the European Union has apparently stopped? - oh wait, that was NATO.
Wronggg. EU has sewn the seeds of economic stability in this continent which corresponds to security defensively. No wars between EU nations for 60 years? Nice.

GO back to your daily mail and their depressing view on the world that you equally hold.

[StefanWolves]

I'm not going to bother getting into ANOTHER debate with him, I really can't stand him. :/

[UKIP]

they are not voting on the same thing, ireland has managed to fight for more things in the treaty for themselves and now they are voting again and is expected to pass.

The 'red lines' the Irish government is gathering from the European Union will slowly be wiped away by the European Union with European legislation, and by that time it will be too late - The Republic of Ireland, like the rest of Europe will have lost sovereign powers from its democratically elected government, transferred to the unelected European Union.


Security was done by NATO, which many of the EU countries are members of. Economic stability and growth was stemmed

NATO, not the European Union.. so are you actually now admitting the truth, that NATO and not the European Union kept peace in Europe?


'corrupt left wingers' ahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhah ahahahahahahaha good one mate ;) nice for use in an argument. individual trade agreements often have exceptions and a blanket agreement makes it easier and less complicated.

Indeed of course they are corrupt, billions have gone missing from the European Unions' finances and so called left wing politicians such as Jose Barroso, Tony Blair, Neil Kinnock & Peter Mandelson all have been/are involved with the European Union - all have large houses and fast fortunes, and holiday with billionares; Champagne socialists.

A blanket agreement is not much simpler, if you think it is then you have no grasp of world trade or economics. An individual trade agreement caters for the two nations involved, whereas a trade agreement for 20+ nations will almost for sure have negative effects on a lot of the members of the agreement - therefore not as beneficial as a single trade agreement.


Infact, if we were in the Schengen area we would have more information on foreign criminals. We are not currently in the schengen area and criminals and terrorists being so rampant is just not true. On the mainland, it's easy for criminals to cross borders without checkpoints. We have an advantage of being an island.

What use would more information on foreign criminals be, when we don't even have control over our borders?

The notion that we can travel around Europe freely is absolute rubbish, when we check in at airports/out you need to show passports and flight cards which in the United Kingdom are scanned, therefore there is no 'free movement' around Europe - its absolute rubbish.

Indeed we do have the advantage of being an island, hence why we haven't been conquered by Europe and have kept our sovereignty from Europe since 1066, until now.


Daily, daily, daily mail. Daily, daily, daily mail. Daily, daily, daily mail, cause that's the rag you read.

The Human Rights were made with contribution with the UK and are really very important and serve everybody.

That is all you have to say, to blame the Daily Mail yet again? - I just find it strange how most of the newspapers bought in the United Kingdom are right wing, or doesn't that reflect what people really think?. Do you read the Guardian by any chance?

The Human Rights Act is yet more useless legislation designed to serve only criminals, just like everything Labour and the left have ever done. Will Ian Huntley like his cell? oo maybe we should give him a Xbox so it doesn't break his human rights - this is the political correct nonsense that Labour and the European Union have engulfed us with.

You couldn't make it up.


How do you define 'solved?' with Iran? That they internally destruct and cause more instability in the middle east? Or that economic sanctions make it harder for Iran to achieve their goals? This empowers sovereignty, doesn't take it away, the European Union's say is ALOT more than the UK. The UK being a big player in the EU means that they general serve us, france and germany's interests.

I don't define anything solved with Iran, i'm just asking what the European Union has solved to this day which is nothing. What did it do to Iran? - told Iran how naughty it was. Iran must be trembling head to toe when the European Union tells it how much it disapproves.

Iran knows what a joke the European Union is, while we sit over here calling Iran a dictatorship which fixes elections, the unelected European Union refuses to even dare give people a say on reform of the European Union, let alone whether we want it or not.

..is this country worse than the USSR in terms of democracy & freedom? - in many ways, yes.


This is a very worth it imo. People from Britain often go to Ireland, The Netherlands, Scandinavia for university. My university course will include a year abroad in France, which is helped by the EU.

It may well be all good for you having a nice time in France, but meanwhile the United Kingdom is in severe debt, roads and crumbling, the military is strapped for cash and people are being refusing life-extending treatments because apparently we have no money.

No money for ourselves but all the money in the world for everyone else.


The EU organise it. and the JRC in Italy is a EU-led institution.
Did science and co-operation not exist before the European Union?


it's not appropriate for the EU to spend money on individual's military and to say 'things like useless art projects' makes me think so badly of people like you. Art enriches lives, environments and is important culturally around Europe. Unfortunately as it doesn't seem to create money, it's therefore worthless, in your opinion. I thought you thought that the power should be privatised? or do you just change your views depending on your argument?

Oh I see, so while our young men and women of this country are dying around the world because of lack of funds for the right equipment, all you care about is modern art (which most people loathe anyway as a child could create the same pieces for a free). It is worthless in the grand scheme of things, yes.

What power should be privatised?


The European Court is a VERY good idea because it means people who are failed by the UK courts in some areas can go to the European Court so others can hear their case. ie, when innocent people wanted their DNA removed from police databases.

In other words, the British courts are a sham. This is yet another example of how highly you think of this country, which is nill.


Idiot. Because of this it means UK exporters don't have to pay import duties in France or Spain or Poland or Czech. It used to happen when countries tried in vain to create a false market by making external firms' goods expensive with duties.

Thats it?, thats your reply? - oh I must be an idiot then, because as we know the rest of the world doesn't trade at all and without the European Union trade cannot possibly occur.


I personally think there isn't enough regulation in some industries.
1979.. 1979.. 1979.. 1979.. and you call me an idiot.


Infact that's the OPPOSITE of what's happening. The EU has laws and rules regarding minority languages including Welsh and Gaelic. In the parliament, MEPs use their own language. There is no 'official' language of the EU, yet dozens of them.

It can enforce as many of its pathetic laws/regulations as it wants, the fact is that English is still spreading and you telling me that the European Union is standing in the way of that is complete nonsense.


United standards makes it easier for companies to produce products that can be sold throughout the region, plus protecting things like waters, forests, mountains and rivers which all cross borders makes sure everyone is happy with how the others are protecting shared natural features.

What business is it of France/Germany/Poland that we're looking after our enviroment properly? (especially when the Victorians created the first major parks in cities) - also, if the European Union are so enviromentally friendly, why does it have two large parliament buildings and enforce a law across Europe which actually forces people to use light bulbs which are laced with poisen chemicals, far more dangerous than what normal light bulbs have within them.


We can buy/produce more in bulk and save money whilst saving the same amount of lives

That is utter rubbish, i've never heard such such an 'excuse' like that before.


No. Because Europol isn't a police force. It's just where european countries can co-operate over cross border criminals

The vital word being criminal. Whos job is it to crack down on criminals? - a police force, therefore they are a police force.

..more to the point; we wouldn't need to co-operate over corss border criminals if we had control of our own borders.


They do NOT have the right to infringe on Roma's human right's of those who are doing absolutely nothing wrong. In your logic we should throw out all the muslims because some have murdered people on the tube.

They are criminals, hence why nobody likes or wants them. I think the only people who actually like Roma/gypsies are the small minority of the public who are Guardian readers. I tell you what, if you'd like them all theiving, committing crime and destroying your area then invite them! - of course you won't because like Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and the rest of them, its all right for them to settle by someone else and make someone elses life hell, but not alright for them to ruin your neighbourhood!

..so ignorant its unbelievable.


Wronggg. EU has sewn the seeds of economic stability in this continent which corresponds to security defensively. No wars between EU nations for 60 years? Nice.

GO back to your daily mail and their depressing view on the world that you equally hold.

I think you'll find thats NATO, yet again. I will ask again, where was this new Hitler?, have I missed him?

The Guardian may tell you how the European Union and Labour saved us from the nasty Conservatives and averted another world war, but I think sale figures from the Daily Mail & other Conservative newspapers when compared to those of the Guardian say it all.

Do you support a referendum on the European Union and Lisbon Treaty?


I'm not going to bother getting into ANOTHER debate with him, I really can't stand him. :/

You don't debate with me, you havent ever got anything worthwhile saying so thats fine with me. :)