Ireland 'Votes Yes' In EU Treaty Referendum

[lick]

I Laughed at the pink part, so funny if this happened.
But yeah, lets see what happens now.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Lisbon-Treaty-Result-Due-In-Second-Referendum-On-Lisbon-Treaty/Article/200910115398162?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15398162_Lisbon_Treaty%3A_Result_Due_I n_Second_Referendum_On_Lisbon_Treaty


Irish voters have backed the Lisbon Treaty referendum at a second time of asking, the country's foreign affairs minister has said.
http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Oct/Week1/15398566.jpg

Early tallies from count centres across Ireland suggested voters have accepted the charter, following a massive swing to the "Yes" side.

Minister Micheal Martin said: "I'm delighted for the country. It looks like a convincing win for the Yes side.

"It's good for Ireland", he told RTE Radio.

Polling stations closed at 10pm yesterday and a final verdict is expected by late afternoon.

After the shock rejection of the Treaty, which aims to modernise and streamline the EU, in a referendum in June last year, this time supporters are confident of victory.

Times have changed: with higher unemployment and the Irish economy in meltdown, people here are far more open to the argument that the European Union is good for this country.

Despite the government here being deeply unpopular, which might attract a substantial protest vote, the arguments are not obscured this time by issues like abortion and Ireland's neutrality.

The implications of the vote are huge.

If the Irish reject the treaty again it will be dead in the water.

However if as expected they vote "Yes", the Poles and the Czechs are likely to follow suit and the treaty will be ratified.

That could put enormous pressure on the Conservative leader David Cameron, who has promised to hold a similar referendum in Britain if he wins the next election.

On a lighter note, "No" supporters say that if they lose they will demand a replay.

They say the score will be 1-1 and it would only be fair to have a decider - another referendum!

:: There have been suggestions in the European Parliament that ex-British prime minister Tony Blair could be given the job of EU president which would be created if the Lisbon Treaty comes into force.

The Tories have issued a warning to European leaders not to appoint Mr Blair.

Shadow foreign secretary William Hague said the Conservatives were prepared to lobby European capitals in an effort to block the appointment.

[Ardemax]

gg undertaker - guess they voted yes huh

imo, they were going to vote yes because they needed to, theres a load of benefits

[-:Undertaker:-]

gg undertaker - guess they voted yes huh

imo, they were going to vote yes because they needed to, theres a load of benefits

How is this democratic when they have already voted? - The no camp are right, its one all now so whens the final referendum?. The Republic of Ireland have gone with the Lisbon Treaty then, and goodluck to them. The rest of Europe 20+ countries are still awaiting their referendums which are being denied to them. At the end of the day, the Republic of Ireland has voted yes now and wishes to be in this new superstate, despite unfair and bullying tactics used against the Irish (making them vote twice) so now its our turn and the rest of Europes' turn.

On a better note, if the Czech and Polish Presidents' can hold off for a few more months, the United Kingdom will get the referendum it deserves - and halt the superstate that nobody wants, forming before our eyes.

[Ardemax]

im pretty sure the uk just went along with it?

[GommeInc]

im pretty sure the uk just went along with it?
Had no choice, there was no vote on whether we wanted it not. The only thing decided was whether the tiny minority wanted it, which was whoever decided we didnt have a choice :/

[alexxxxx]

The Irish thought that the guarantees given to them was enough to vote yes for the second time.

It wasn't even close, 67% voted yes, with only a slight increase in voter turnout, meaning many people even changed their minds, due to guarantees. That's democracy folks, you say no to something you don't like and fight for what you want.

[-:Undertaker:-]

im pretty sure the uk just went along with it?

The political elite in the United Kingdom went along with it, not the people and not the people of Europe.


Had no choice, there was no vote on whether we wanted it not. The only thing decided was whether the tiny minority wanted it, which was whoever decided we didnt have a choice :/

The idiots incharge such as Gordon Brown, Brian Cowen, David Milliband and Peter Mandelson will all end up having jobs in the European Union, I can gurantee it just like their good friend Tony Blair, oh but wait.. Peter Mandelson has already had a job in the European Union after having to resign twice from British government for fraud!.

It is insane to say the least.


The Irish thought that the guarantees given to them was enough to vote yes for the second time.

It wasn't even close, 67% voted yes, with only a slight increase in voter turnout, meaning many people even changed their minds, due to guarantees. That's democracy folks, you say no to something you don't like and fight for what you want.

If its democracy as you call it, when are the United Kingdom, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden going to get their referendums?.

How dare you say its democracy as a European Union supporter; it really is the top of hypocrisy, If it is democracy then the only referendums held over the reform of Europe put NO on 3 and YES on 1. That means the European Union is not wanted by a margin of 3 to 1 (and bearing in mind France, Republic of Ireland and the Netherlands are the only countries to of been asked their opinon).

A lot of people are also forgetting that the Republic of Ireland only held this referendum because they legally had to, if Brian Cowen and the European Union would of had it their way, they would never of had a referendum in the first place.

A good thing is that this is putting the spotlight on the European Union now, and people are becoming more and more aware of just how corrupt, undemocratic the European Union is. A sad day for the Republic of Ireland who fought to leave the British Empire yet have now been swallowed up by another, much more sinister one-nation superstate in the making.

The question the British people and the people of Europe are asking themselves is 'why our our governments not giving us the right to express our opinion and decide our own futures' and they already know the answer; because if Europe was given a vote on the European Union, the European Union would cease to exist overnight.

[Fez]

Hello new world order.

[alexxxxx]

If its democracy as you call it, when are the United Kingdom, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden going to get their referendums?.

How dare you say its democracy as a European Union supporter; it really is the top of hypocrisy, If it is democracy then the only referendums held over the reform of Europe put NO on 3 and YES on 1. That means the European Union is not wanted by a margin of 3 to 1 (and bearing in mind France, Republic of Ireland and the Netherlands are the only countries to of been asked their opinon).

A lot of people are also forgetting that the Republic of Ireland only held this referendum because they legally had to, if Brian Cowen and the European Union would of had it their way, they would never of had a referendum in the first place.

A good thing is that this is putting the spotlight on the European Union now, and people are becoming more and more aware of just how corrupt, undemocratic the European Union is. A sad day for the Republic of Ireland who fought to leave the British Empire yet have now been swallowed up by another, much more sinister one-nation superstate in the making.

The question the British people and the people of Europe are asking themselves is 'why our our governments not giving us the right to express our opinion and decide our own futures' and they already know the answer; because if Europe was given a vote on the European Union, the European Union would cease to exist overnight.

Central EU cannot order a state to ratify a treaty via referendum as it's up to the national governments to decide how to ratify treaties as each state has different legal/government systems.
2/3 voted in favor of the Lisbon Treaty. Remember, this was a referendum on the LISBON TREATY and not THE EU. Just because someone doesn't agree with the lisbon treaty, doesn't mean they are anti-eu. In effect, if you read the treaty, or even the outline, it gives the directly elected parliament more power and say in the budget and other key areas and sets out a way to leave the EU. You seem to have very little knowledge of the contents of the treaty of lisbon and see it as a vote for or against the EU.

Our government and every other EU government is directly elected by the people in that particular country. They represent the people. The electorate vote in those to evaluate and vote on bills, treaties, etc. That's how it works. The decision to not give a referendum on the LISBON TREATY, which ISN'T the same as the EU CONSTITUTION, though similar, but there are differences, was democratic.

When the tories get voted in next year, that will be democracy, however when the Irish vote YES on treaty of lisbon, because it isn't right in your view that an electorate should have to vote twice, after being offered legally binding guarantees on sensitive issues, it's undemocratic. I don't understand your hypocrisy.

It's a good day for the EU and Ireland. The far-right Czechs and the Poles will probably hold up the ratification until Cameron comes in anyway. If the Czechs ratify it, they will probably have to get out of the dodgy alliance they have with Cameron.

And I truely don't think the whole of Europe are anti-EU.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Hello new world order.

Where are the IRA when they have a decent cause to fight for?


Central EU cannot order a state to ratify a treaty via referendum as it's up to the national governments to decide how to ratify treaties as each state has different legal/government systems.
2/3 voted in favor of the Lisbon Treaty. Remember, this was a referendum on the LISBON TREATY and not THE EU. Just because someone doesn't agree with the lisbon treaty, doesn't mean they are anti-eu. In effect, if you read the treaty, or even the outline, it gives the directly elected parliament more power and say in the budget and other key areas and sets out a way to leave the EU. You seem to have very little knowledge of the contents of the treaty of lisbon and see it as a vote for or against the EU.

Our government and every other EU government is directly elected by the people in that particular country. They represent the people. The electorate vote in those to evaluate and vote on bills, treaties, etc. That's how it works. The decision to not give a referendum on the LISBON TREATY, which ISN'T the same as the EU CONSTITUTION, though similar, but there are differences, was democratic.

When the tories get voted in next year, that will be democracy, however when the Irish vote YES on treaty of lisbon, because it isn't right in your view that an electorate should have to vote twice, after being offered legally binding guarantees on sensitive issues, it's undemocratic. I don't understand your hypocrisy.

It's a good day for the EU and Ireland. The far-right Czechs and the Poles will probably hold up the ratification until Cameron comes in anyway. If the Czechs ratify it, they will probably have to get out of the dodgy alliance they have with Cameron.

And I truely don't think the whole of Europe are anti-EU.

Hang on, lets just cut to the crap now.

How is it a good day for Europe and the United Kingdom when the people of Europe are being forced to accept a treaty they do not want, a union they do not want, a presidential post they do not want.

IF the European Union was democratic, it would urge governments to hold referendums on the treaty, in a fair and democratic way but it refuses to. - does it? - NO.

The Lisbon Treaty is a re-write of the EU Consitition, which was turned down by the French, Dutch and Irish. The Lisbon Treaty was turned down by the Irish the first time. Therefore if you can do simple maths, that makes; NO at 4 and YES at 3. I have said before, the Irish have chosen their path as stupid as I think it is, now its time for the rest of Europe to let their people choose their own path aswell, do you or do you not agree?

If i'm quite honest I couldn't give a toss whether or not Spain, Luxembourg or Ireland say yes. I want the referendum that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown promised in the 2005 manifesto and all of the United Kingdom wants it now. The Irish have been fooled into believing the European Unino created the Celtic Tiger economy, the Celtic Tiger was built on debt and credit and collapsed as it eventually did.

The whole of Europe isn't anti-EU, Spain benefits greatly from British money going there. The United Kingdom is anti-EU, therefore why the hell are we in it?

[Jordy]

Central EU cannot order a state to ratify a treaty via referendum as it's up to the national governments to decide how to ratify treaties as each state has different legal/government systems.
2/3 voted in favor of the Lisbon Treaty. Remember, this was a referendum on the LISBON TREATY and not THE EU. Just because someone doesn't agree with the lisbon treaty, doesn't mean they are anti-eu. In effect, if you read the treaty, or even the outline, it gives the directly elected parliament more power and say in the budget and other key areas and sets out a way to leave the EU. You seem to have very little knowledge of the contents of the treaty of lisbon and see it as a vote for or against the EU.

Our government and every other EU government is directly elected by the people in that particular country. They represent the people. The electorate vote in those to evaluate and vote on bills, treaties, etc. That's how it works. The decision to not give a referendum on the LISBON TREATY, which ISN'T the same as the EU CONSTITUTION, though similar, but there are differences, was democratic.

When the tories get voted in next year, that will be democracy, however when the Irish vote YES on treaty of lisbon, because it isn't right in your view that an electorate should have to vote twice, after being offered legally binding guarantees on sensitive issues, it's undemocratic. I don't understand your hypocrisy.

It's a good day for the EU and Ireland. The far-right Czechs and the Poles will probably hold up the ratification until Cameron comes in anyway. If the Czechs ratify it, they will probably have to get out of the dodgy alliance they have with Cameron.

And I truely don't think the whole of Europe are anti-EU.On this rare occasion I have to agree with pretty much everything in your post. I think we deserve a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (And also the EU) but that's our governments fault not the European Union's. It also shows that some people do want the EU it seems, contrary to the fact that "no one" wants the EU.

I am disappointed by the outcome never-the-less although I do think it's all fair. Not sure what the chances of the Czech's and Polish holding out are though.

[-:Undertaker:-]

If it is not the European Unions' fault and the governments' of Europes fault, then why is the European Union A) not asking governments to hold referendums & B) making the Republic of Ireland vote twice.

[Jordy]

If it is not the European Unions' fault and the governments' of Europes fault, then why is the European Union A) not asking governments to hold referendums & B) making the Republic of Ireland vote twice.I'm led to believe the Irish got the guarantees they wanted. This was what the majority of Irish wanted and this is what they got, hence why the majority of them voted to ratify the treaty. The statistics speak for themselves.

Your government represents you on the international stage, hence why they choose to ratify the treaty or not. They choose what they believe is best for the country. Seeing as Labour won the last election then the majority of the population voted for them to represent us. They did indeed promise us a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and we didn't get one, that's the Labour Government's fault though, not the EU's.

You carry on about it being a dictatorship but these are all good examples of democracy.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm led to believe the Irish got the guarantees they wanted. This was what the majority of Irish wanted and this is what they got, hence why the majority of them voted to ratify the treaty. The statistics speak for themselves.

Your government represents you on the international stage, hence why they choose to ratify the treaty or not. They choose what they believe is best for the country. Seeing as Labour won the last election then the majority of the population voted for them to represent us. They did indeed promise us a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and we didn't get one, that's the Labour Government's fault though, not the EU's.

You carry on about it being a dictatorship but these are all good examples of democracy.

Then why is the European Union about to install a President who will be unelected, and more to the point why is the European Union not asking governments' of Europe to hold referendums on the Lisbon Treaty?.

[Jordy]

Then why is the European Union about to install a President who will be unelected, and more to the point why is the European Union not asking governments' of Europe to hold referendums on the Lisbon Treaty?.I explained my views to you last night about the president more specifically and why I don't think the person in the position is a "dictator". Perhaps the European Union should ask governments, although I can imagine certain people moaning at the thought of the European Union forcing governments to do things.

Our democratically elected government represents us at the end of the day. And the argument that the EU isn't asking us because they'll lose doesn't apply anymore, seeing as once the Irish got the guarantees they want, they voted yes.

[alexxxxx]

How is it a good day for Europe and the United Kingdom when the people of Europe are being forced to accept a treaty they do not want, a union they do not want, a presidential post they do not want.

Well the democratic process in that they have elected their governments which are part of the EU have proved that they DO want it.


IF the European Union was democratic, it would urge governments to hold referendums on the treaty, in a fair and democratic way but it refuses to. - does it? - NO.

Referenda are not fair as the electorate can be influenced by misinformation or wish to punish the government for an unrelated issue. Not everyone has the time or capacity to read and understand the whole thing. An MP's job would be to do so.


The Lisbon Treaty is a re-write of the EU Consitition, which was turned down by the French, Dutch and Irish. The Lisbon Treaty was turned down by the Irish the first time. Therefore if you can do simple maths, that makes; NO at 4 and YES at 3. I have said before, the Irish have chosen their path as stupid as I think it is, now its time for the rest of Europe to let their people choose their own path aswell, do you or do you not agree?

The treaty isn't exactly the same as the constitution. It includes alot of the same but isn't 100% the same. The people of europe are actually represented in their own governments more-so than they are here. They picked their path by picking their government. It isn't feasible to have a referendum on every law change.


If i'm quite honest I couldn't give a toss whether or not Spain, Luxembourg or Ireland say yes. I want the referendum that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown promised in the 2005 manifesto and all of the United Kingdom wants it now.

A referendum on a constitution that won't go into force?



The Irish have been fooled into believing the European Unino created the Celtic Tiger economy, the Celtic Tiger was built on debt and credit and collapsed as it eventually did.

Which shows the ineffectiveness of referenda. If people can be influenced one way on misinformation why can't it be possible that they can be influenced the other way? This is what I've been telling you about them for all this time and you've proved my point.


The whole of Europe isn't anti-EU, Spain benefits greatly from British money going there. The United Kingdom is anti-EU, therefore why the hell are we in it?
Then why did you say that if we gave a refendum to the whole of the EU about the continuation of the union it'd cease to exist overnight? There is no indication that the british don't want to be in it either. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it's true.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I explained my views to you last night about the president more specifically and why I don't think the person in the position is a "dictator". Perhaps the European Union should ask governments, although I can imagine certain people moaning at the thought of the European Union forcing governments to do things.

Our democratically elected government represents us at the end of the day. And the argument that the EU isn't asking us because they'll lose doesn't apply anymore, seeing as once the Irish got the guarantees they want, they voted yes.

Josef Stalin was elected by the Communist Party as the basic President of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics - same thing, just different names.

The European Union is not asking us because it will lose, I have said before the Republic of Ireland have made their decision but the rest of Europe has not, and I am not Irish, I am British so therefore I want my nation to make their own decision for themselves, not Gordon Brown, Brian Cowell or the Irish people.


Well the democratic process in that they have elected their governments which are part of the EU have proved that they DO want it.

Referenda are not fair as the electorate can be influenced by misinformation or wish to punish the government for an unrelated issue. Not everyone has the time or capacity to read and understand the whole thing. An MP's job would be to do so.

The treaty isn't exactly the same as the constitution. It includes alot of the same but isn't 100% the same. The people of europe are actually represented in their own governments more-so than they are here. They picked their path by picking their government. It isn't feasible to have a referendum on every law change.

A referendum on a constitution that won't go into force?

Which shows the ineffectiveness of referenda. If people can be influenced one way on misinformation why can't it be possible that they can be influenced the other way? This is what I've been telling you about them for all this time and you've proved my point.

Then why did you say that if we gave a refendum to the whole of the EU about the continuation of the union it'd cease to exist overnight? There is no indication that the british don't want to be in it either. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it's true.

You have just proven me right, so arrogant are you to say that the electorate (the public) would be misinformed in a referendum, you have just stamped on the graves of those who died to protect freedom of Europe, Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin also thought the people of Europe couldn't make their own decisions, hence why they never held elections. On the issue of the Lisbon Treaty and the Consitution, both EU sceptics and EU supporters, along with European ministers have all said on record that the Treaty is the Consitution just renamed.

I guess with your verdict then, the elections of 2005, 2001 all the way through history are not viable, because in your words they can be 'influenced'. If you still dont' accept referendums and their results, then you surely do not accept this result either then do you. As seeing you are so eager to ignore referendums, we'll move onto elections shall we.. in the European Parliamentary Elections 2009 anti-EU parties across Europe and especially in the United Kingdom all made major gains.

The British do not want to be in it, that is why we are not being given a referendum. You act as if i'm stupid and the British people are stupid; do you really think if the government knew it would win a referendum on the EU it would go through all this to avoid one?

[Jordy]

Josef Stalin was elected by the Communist Party as the basic President of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics - same thing, just different names.

The British do not want to be in it, that is why we are not being given a referendum. You act as if i'm stupid and the British people are stupid; do you really think if the government knew it would win a referendum on the EU it would go through all this to avoid one?The difference is though, no one voted the Communist Party into power, it forced it's self into power. That however has never happened in the UK in recent history.

I agree we are entitled to the referendum we were promised and maybe the British people don't want to be in the EU (Hopefully), however there's nothing much to base that on.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The difference is though, no one voted the Communist Party into power, it forced it's self into power. That however has never happened in the UK in recent history.

I agree we are entitled to the referendum we were promised and maybe the British people don't want to be in the EU (Hopefully), however there's nothing much to base that on.

Nobody voted the European Union into power, and just like the Communist Party it also forced itself into power.

[alexxxxx]

You have just proven me right, so arrogant are you to say that the electorate (the public) would be misinformed in a referendum, you have just stamped on the graves of those who died to protect freedom of Europe, Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin also thought the people of Europe couldn't make their own decisions, hence why they never held elections. On the issue of the Lisbon Treaty and the Consitution, both EU sceptics and EU supporters, along with European ministers have all said on record that the Treaty is the Consitution just renamed.

pull out the 'stamp on the graves' crap ahaa. referenda don't work and you know it. europe is free. free from fascism, free from genocide, free market, free to make our own decisions. FREE.


I guess with your verdict then, the elections of 2005, 2001 all the way through history are not viable, because in your words they can be 'influenced'. If you still dont' accept referendums and their results, then you surely do not accept this result either then do you. As seeing you are so eager to ignore referendums, we'll move onto elections shall we.. in the European Parliamentary Elections 2009 anti-EU parties across Europe and especially in the United Kingdom all made major gains.

Referenda don't work. I accept the first result and i accept the second one. The second one is different because Ireland's circumstances changed, plus they have new guarantees. I don't however doubt that they are influenced by misinformation, which is why i'm against them. Elections are a different kettle of fish as the elections are representative of the people. You should vote on what the parties say they'll do, not what the media say.



The British do not want to be in it, that is why we are not being given a referendum. You act as if i'm stupid and the British people are stupid; do you really think if the government knew it would win a referendum on the EU it would go through all this to avoid one?
I act as if you are stupid because you are. You fail to see what is and what isn't a democracy.

[Jordy]

Nobody voted the European Union into power, and just like the Communist Party it also forced itself into power.Our elected government has always had the right to leave the European Union whenever it wants, and it still does have this power. The people of the Soviet Union didn't have any say at all.

There was a referendum to join the "Common market" as it was at the time, it has of course changed it's form and it's aims, however all our governments since joining have maintained it's best to stick with it, otherwise we would have left. In my opinion we should have a referendum on it due to changing so much and there is a clear opposition to it in recent years.

Another reason the EU doesn't want to force referendums onto governments would be because it obviously wants to be as big as possible and include as many as nations as it can, providing they meet it's entry requirements. They believe what they do is the best thing for the countries in it so by forcing referendums on governments, it would threaten it's existence. It's like Microsoft suggesting to people they should consider an Apple Mac or Chelsea telling their fans they should maybe support Arsenal? Much like these examples, the EU doesn't want to risk getting worse or smaller.

[-:Undertaker:-]

pull out the 'stamp on the graves' crap ahaa. referenda don't work and you know it. europe is free. free from fascism, free from genocide, free market, free to make our own decisions. FREE.

Referenda don't work. I accept the first result and i accept the second one. The second one is different because Ireland's circumstances changed, plus they have new guarantees. I don't however doubt that they are influenced by misinformation, which is why i'm against them. Elections are a different kettle of fish as the elections are representative of the people. You should vote on what the parties say they'll do, not what the media say.


I act as if you are stupid because you are. You fail to see what is and what isn't a democracy.

Europe is not free, over 75% of our laws are made in Europe by unelected people, the United Kingdom itself has more cameras than communist China and the European Union has banned all manners of things ranging from lightbulbs to how many milimetres too big our fruit and vegtables can be.

That is not free.

The parties say things in referendums, its as much party orientated as it is media orientated. The elections and referendums are exactly the same, you vote for the option you want. The people of the United Kingdom are not stupid.

I do see what a democracy is, and I challenge you and you decide to opt out of what is and isn't democracy when it suits you and the European Union. If you can't see the European Union is marching towards a federalist superstate then you have no grasp of history, and will have to learn as history unfolds.


Our elected government has always had the right to leave the European Union whenever it wants, and it still does have this power. The people of the Soviet Union didn't have any say at all.

There was a referendum to join the "Common market" as it was at the time, it has of course changed it's form and it's aims, however all our governments since joining have maintained it's best to stick with it, otherwise we would have left. In my opinion we should have a referendum on it due to changing so much and there is a clear opposition to it in recent years.

Another reason the EU doesn't want to force referendums onto governments would be because it obviously wants to be as big as possible and include as many as nations as it can, providing they meet it's entry requirements. They believe what they do is the best thing for the countries in it so by forcing referendums on governments, it would threaten it's existence. It's like Microsoft suggesting to people they should consider an Apple Mac or Chelsea telling their fans they should maybe support Arsenal? Much like these examples, the EU doesn't want to risk getting worse or smaller.

The governments' of the Soviet Union did have the choice, as that is what led to the breakup of the Soviet Union in the 90s' and the final nail in the coffin was when Russia declared itself free from the USSR.

You know aswell as I do that the Common Market was nothing like the European Union, just like when the German people voted in the Nazi Party they would never of predicted Hitler to delclare himself Furher and plunge the world into world war II. The European Union then, as you have just said and proven, does not want people to have a say on its existence because it knows it will lose, and what is that called? - a dictatorship.

The point still stands that you yourself brought up, the Communist Party was never voted in, the European Union was never voted in, Josef Stalin was never elected and neither will Tony Blair be.

[Jordy]

The governments' of the Soviet Union did have the choice, as that is what led to the breakup of the Soviet Union in the 90s' and the final nail in the coffin was when Russia declared itself free from the USSR.

You know aswell as I do that the Common Market was nothing like the European Union, just like when the German people voted in the Nazi Party they would never of predicted Hitler to delclare himself Furher and plunge the world into world war II. The European Union then, as you have just said and proven, does not want people to have a say on its existence because it knows it will lose, and what is that called? - a dictatorship.

The point still stands that you yourself brought up, the Communist Party was never voted in, the European Union was never voted in, Josef Stalin was never elected and neither will Tony Blair be.What you're saying about the Soviet Union is true, however the governments of the respective states that made up the Soviet Union were not elected, people did not have a say, there were no elections. The European Union is not a country and still won't be after the Treaty. If the European Union was a country and the people didn't get a say in what goes on, that would then be a dictatorship.

Our democratically elected government reserves the right to leave, the EU does not control us, much like any state has the right to leave the USA and the states had the right to leave the USSR (and did).

[-:Undertaker:-]

What you're saying about the Soviet Union is true, however the governments of the respective states that made up the Soviet Union were not elected, people did not have a say, there were no elections. The European Union is not a country and still won't be after the Treaty. If the European Union was a country and the people didn't get a say in what goes on, that would then be a dictatorship.

Our democratically elected government reserves the right to leave, the EU does not control us, much like any state has the right to leave the USA and the states had the right to leave the USSR (and did).

The European Union may not be offically a country, but it does what a country does and will function even more like a country does. The Republic of China (Taiwan) is not offically a country, but we know it basically is.

The Lisbon Treaty will not be the last treaty/reform of the European Union, just watch.

[Jordy]

The European Union may not be offically a country, but it does what a country does and will function even more like a country does. The Republic of China (Taiwan) is not offically a country, but we know it basically is.

The Lisbon Treaty will not be the last treaty/reform of the European Union, just watch.That is probably true, hence why we should get out while we can. My problem with your posts is how you throw around the words democracy and dictatorship, not your stance on politics or ideologies which I pretty much agree with.

[alexxxxx]

The Lisbon Treaty will not be the last treaty/reform of the European Union, just watch.

Of course it won't be the last treaty/reform of the European Union, just like how our government/system has evolved.

[-:Undertaker:-]

That is probably true, hence why we should get out while we can. My problem with your posts is how you throw around the words democracy and dictatorship, not your stance on politics or ideologies which I pretty much agree with.

A unelected body which is part of the central political system can be classified as a dictatorship, just because it hasn't sent millions to the gas chambers/gulags doesn't mean it can't be classified in the same political system as the Third Reich/USSR.


Of course it won't be the last treaty/reform of the European Union, just like how our government/system has evolved.

Then you have just given the game away, the idea is to create a federal Europe through all these treaties combined. My government evolved like this, my legitamate government of the British Isles, not the illegitamate government of Europe.

[lick]

i got told that the Treaty is self amending and that means they can change it and get rid of our legal guarantees anytime they want.....is this true lol?

[-:Undertaker:-]

i got told that the Treaty is self amending and that means they can change it and get rid of our legal guarantees anytime they want.....is this true lol?

They can and always have done, that is how the European Economic whatever transformed into the European Union. When the European Union puts a treaty forward, it just gives the Union more powers on a different area/level meaning they can override national sovereignty more than they have ever done, hence why over 75% of our laws come from Brussels.

[Sammeth.]

and halt the superstate that nobody wants, forming before our eyes.

apart from the majority of ireland ye?

[-:Undertaker:-]

apart from the majority of ireland ye?

I am British, not Irish. :)

The rest of Europe is also not Irish and are still awaiting their vote, a population of a few million does not speak for the 500 million odd who live in Europe.

[Sammeth.]

I am British, not Irish. :)

The rest of Europe is also not Irish and are still awaiting their vote, a population of a few million does not speak for the 500 million odd who live in Europe.
You said nobody, which is untrue, that was my point. No one said anything about whether you were british or not :)

[-:Undertaker:-]

You said nobody, which is untrue, that was my point. No one said anything about whether you were british or not :)

A mistake on my part then, i'll rephrase - the majority of Europe and the large majority of the United Kingdom who do not wish to see our nations merely become provinces of the European Union.

In general, the Lisbon Treaty replaced the EU Consitution and supporters and sceptics have both admitted they are both the same, minus the emblem and badge (which will most likely be rammed on us through some other European legislation). On the issue of Blair, remember when he gave away our billion+ pound rebate to the European Union, money does seem to buy things then doesn't it?.

If this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ODFU4d9Xw) isn't the start of a military, federal superstate then I don't know what is. As Farage points out, the anthem that was being played was the very same anthem that was knocked down in the failed EU Consitution - they refuse to accept no, so really it makes little difference if the Republic of Ireland voted yes or no today, they are going full steam ahead with this corrupt and unwanted euro dream.

[Sammeth.]

A mistake on my part then, i'll rephrase - the majority of Europe and the large majority of the United Kingdom who do not wish to see our nations merely become provinces of the European Union.

That's better.

[Richie]

Ireland only got the yes because we were practically forced into saying yes.

[-:Undertaker:-]

They were bribed, using no doubt extra funds for the Republic promised, exemptions from certain policies on Lisbon (for now) - totally and utterly corrupt European Union duped them into it. If The European Union is so vital to the Irish economy, then why are other nations around the world who are not in the European Union below the poverty line and wanting to join the glorious EU? - because the haven't been fooled into it.

It is a voting trap, once your in you cant get out.

[Richie]

They were bribed, using no doubt extra funds for the Republic promised, exemptions from certain policies on Lisbon (for now) - totally and utterly corrupt European Union duped them into it. If The European Union is so vital to the Irish economy, then why are other nations around the world who are not in the European Union below the poverty line and wanting to join the glorious EU? - because the haven't been fooled into it.

It is a voting trap, once your in you cant get out.


That’s very true. We are a Neutral country and i can almost guarantee in years to come if there’s world war three we will be made to go to war. Think about it Ireland is small country if somewhere like Russia or china wanted to attack the uk, Ireland would be the perfect place for them to set up their base. The Irish government must be asking for problems because after getting the yes there's going to be allot of terrorist attacks by the IRA. Brian Cowen wanted the yes only to keep his own job, it made him look bad the first few times when he said yes to the whole situation and the majority of the country said no, what kind of leader does that make him look like? Personally if the voting had of been 15 days after the actual voting I would have voted no.

[-:Undertaker:-]

That’s very true. We are a Neutral country and i can almost guarantee in years to come if there’s world war three we will be made to go to war. Think about it Ireland is small country if somewhere like Russia or china wanted to attack the uk, Ireland would be the perfect place for them to set up their base. The Irish government must be asking for problems because after getting the yes there's going to be allot of terrorist attacks by the IRA. Brian Cowen wanted the yes only to keep his own job, it made him look bad the first few times when he said yes to the whole situation and the majority of the country said no, what kind of leader does that make him look like? Personally if the voting had of been 15 days after the actual voting I would have voted no.

I can promise you that your leader (that fat idiot with the glasses) will end up in the European Union, once hes left office, hated by his own country and disgraced. We have had them all before mate, Tony Blair (took us into an illegal war killing one million+ people as a result), Peter Mandelson (resigned twice in disagrace, linked with fraud), Neil Kinnock (the ex-Labour leader who looked a complete fool and lost two general elections) - all of these idiots have ended up in the European Union, totally unelected and ruling over 500+million people everyday.

The IRA have a cause to fight now.

[Richie]

The IRA have a cause to fight now.



Lets be honest the IRA today are idiots, they kill people for no reason. Years ago they actually fought for a cause. All of the leaders of the world today are idiots, including obama the amount of mistakes hes made already. We need a half decent person to run this world, someone with brains..

[-:Undertaker:-]

They are you are right, but we need something to stop or disrupt this gravy train thats unfolding before our eyes. At least Zimbabwe/Iran dont pretend they themselves are democratic.

[alexxxxx]

It is true to say that 75% of laws are made at the EU. However, almost none of these are criminal laws or the way how the educational systems work, to do with the military, health. Most are to do with regulatory processes, which makes sense as we all share a common market or they are directives which have to be passed by individual governments.

The EU is democratic and you really are kidding yourself if you think it isn't. There's a parliament which is directly elected and a commission which is appointed by the elected parliaments. Therefore, it's democratic. The EU isn't an entity in its own right, it's a set of agreements between states.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It is true to say that 75% of laws are made at the EU. However, almost none of these are criminal laws or the way how the educational systems work, to do with the military, health. Most are to do with regulatory processes, which makes sense as we all share a common market or they are directives which have to be passed by individual governments.

The EU is democratic and you really are kidding yourself if you think it isn't. There's a parliament which is directly elected and a commission which is appointed by the elected parliaments. Therefore, it's democratic. The EU isn't an entity in its own right, it's a set of agreements between states.

The laws of the European Union effect everything, from working hours, to business, to taxation, to foreign policy and soon maybe to the military and other areas. We are not kidding ourselves, the European Union was not chosen by the people of this country and the majority of Europe, why do you honestly think most people want a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty? - people like you do not fool them.

The parliament has no power, the commision and the soon-to-be President have all the power, none of who are elected, or elected on a mandate meaning we have unelected people making over 75% of our laws without a mandate, thus they could basically make any law they wished.

The Republic of China (Taiwan) also isn't an offical country, but we all know it has the powers of an offical country.. because something isn't offical doesn't mean its not real. Adolf Hitler never adopted a new treaty for the Third Reich, so technically he was still leader of the Weimar Republic because all he had to do, and did, was impose emergency law suspending the Weimar Constitution - again, proving that because something isn't offical doesnt mean it hasnt got the powers of something offical.

[alexxxxx]

The laws of the European Union effect everything, from working hours, to business, to taxation, to foreign policy and soon maybe to the military and other areas. We are not kidding ourselves, the European Union was not chosen by the people of this country and the majority of Europe, why do you honestly think most people want a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty? - people like you do not fool them.

Working Hours yes, direct taxation, no. 'Soon Maybe' does not mean 'now.' Speculation. You like to speculate. *Yawn* yes this country did decide.


The parliament has no power, the commision and the soon-to-be President have all the power, none of who are elected, or elected on a mandate meaning we have unelected people making over 75% of our laws without a mandate, thus they could basically make any law they wished.

The Parliament does have power, infact it has power to sack the comission, however, as the parliament does contain members of the same political party as those sitting in the commision, this is unlikely, but it does have that power. The Lisbon Treaty increases the power of the parliament.



The Republic of China (Taiwan) also isn't an offical country, but we all know it has the powers of an offical country.. because something isn't offical doesn't mean its not real. Adolf Hitler never adopted a new treaty for the Third Reich, so technically he was still leader of the Weimar Republic because all he had to do, and did, was impose emergency law suspending the Weimar Constitution - again, proving that because something isn't offical doesnt mean it hasnt got the powers of something offical.

These are completely unrelated. Taiwan is a country and is recognised by many states throughout the world. Hitler's Nazi Germany was elected democratically and represented the people. The failures in the Weimar constitution allowed the nazis to seize power when Hitler declared himself the leader of the reichstag and the president, meaning that when he passed the emergency act, he effectively ruled by decree. He then became a dictator, but he was elected in the first place. The president of the EU would be chosen by elected peoples, but has no power by himself, he would be the leading figurehead however. The Lisbon Treaty sets out a way for states to leave the EU, which before, didn't exist.

However, they don't claim themselves to being so because of their unstable relationship with China. The EU isn't a state. Nor will it become one.

This debate is really boring because you throw around the words unelected, undemocratic, EUSSR, speculate and don't accept facts as they are given to you.

:$

[-:Undertaker:-]

Working Hours yes, direct taxation, no. 'Soon Maybe' does not mean 'now.' Speculation. You like to speculate. *Yawn* yes this country did decide.

It is not speculation, hence why the Irish were bribed into taxation being exempt from the Lisbon Treaty. Their red lines will not last long, the Irish government will slowly but surely surrender them, just as our government has over the years and the governments' across Europe did.

You are wrong yet again, we-did-not-vote-for-a-European Union.


The Parliament does have power, infact it has power to sack the comission, however, as the parliament does contain members of the same political party as those sitting in the commision, this is unlikely, but it does have that power. The Lisbon Treaty increases the power of the parliament.

The treaty increases numbers of commissoners is what David Milliband said yesterday on television, why would the European Union really remove its own power which its been building up over the past few decades or so? - for democracy?..oh please, give me a break.


These are completely unrelated. Taiwan is a country and is recognised by many states throughout the world. Hitler's Nazi Germany was elected democratically and represented the people. The failures in the Weimar constitution allowed the nazis to seize power when Hitler declared himself the leader of the reichstag and the president, meaning that when he passed the emergency act, he effectively ruled by decree. He then became a dictator, but he was elected in the first place. The president of the EU would be chosen by elected peoples, but has no power by himself, he would be the leading figurehead however. The Lisbon Treaty sets out a way for states to leave the EU, which before, didn't exist.

You are wrong again, The Republic of China (Taiwan) is not recognised by any country (and the United Nations) which wishes to have formal diplomatic relations with the Peoples Republic of China, any country wishing to have formal relations with the Peoples Republic of China has to accept the 'One-China policy' and the United Kingdom, United States and most nations around the world have accepted this. The example of the ROC is the same as the EU.

Josef Stalin was elected by members of the communist party, because someone is elected does not give them the right to elect someone else on 500+ million peoples' behalf. It isn't hard to leave the European Union, which you dont seem to understand and neither do many of the politicians in the United Kingdom, you tell them you are leaving - its that simple. You tend to mention this clause for pullout a lot, so do you accept that if the Lisbon Treaty is passed and implemented, that every European nation should hold a referendum on European Union membership seeing as it now has a proper pullout clause?


However, they don't claim themselves to being so because of their unstable relationship with China. The EU isn't a state. Nor will it become one.

If the European Union does not desire to become a state, why has it proposed and moved in many areas to grab hold of taxation, foreign policy, defence, monetary issues, internal issues and regulations, agriculture, fishing, and defence. That is statehood. I never said the Republic of China do claim to be an independant state and I do know of their unstable relationship with the Peoples Republic of China, hence why I have said China is the biggest threat to world peace many times over - the point I was making is that neither are offical, but both act as countrys (The EU and ROC).


This debate is really boring because you throw around the words unelected, undemocratic, EUSSR, speculate and don't accept facts as they are given to you.

It is boring you are right, because you refuse to accept that people want a say on the European Union and the Lisbon Treaty, and that the highly likely outcome will be no.

[Bun]

taking us into the EEC is the only thing i rate the tories for. :D:eusa_danc

[-:Undertaker:-]

taking us into the EEC is the only thing i rate the tories for. :D:eusa_danc

You have just made my point even easier for people to see and have amplified it, they took us into (although looking back we can all see it was a awful move) the European Economic Community and not the European Union, two totally different things.

+rep :)

[alexxxxx]

It is not speculation, hence why the Irish were bribed into taxation being exempt from the Lisbon Treaty. Their red lines will not last long, the Irish government will slowly but surely surrender them, just as our government has over the years and the governments' across Europe did.

[QUOTE]
You are wrong yet again, we-did-not-vote-for-a-European Union.

YOU ARE SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO STUPID. SERIOUSLY. YOU MUST NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT A PARLIAMENT IS, WHO MPs/MEPs ARE ELECTED BY, NOR WHO THEY REPRESENT. EVERY TIME SOMEONE PUT 'X' BY THE NAME OF THEIR MP WHEN THEY VOTED, VOTED FOR THE EU. EVERY TIME. EVERY TIME. THAT'S HOW A DEMOCRACY WORKS. YOU VOTE FOR THE PARTY AND IT'S POLICIES. IF IT'S POLICIES INCLUDE WORKING WITH/IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, THEN YOU HAVE IN FACT VOTED IN FAVOUR FOR BRITAIN REMAINING IN IT. THAT'S HOW IT WORKS. THE SAME ARGUMENT HOLDS FOR WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-THE-SMOKING-BAN, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-WEED-TO-GO-TO-CLASS-B, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-THE-HUNTING-BAN, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-TO-JOIN-THE-UN, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-THE-ONE-WAY-EXTRADITION-TREATY-WITH-THE-USA, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-IN-OUR-REPRESENTATIVE-AT-THE-UN WE DON'T HOLD REFERENDUMS ON MOST/ALL LAWS/TREATIES BECAUSE IT UNDER-MINDS PARLIAMENT AND THE ELECTED DEMOCRACY PROCESS.


The treaty increases numbers of commissoners is what David Milliband said yesterday on television, why would the European Union really remove its own power which its been building up over the past few decades or so? - for democracy?..oh please, give me a break.

Untrue, the number of comissioners has been decided to stick to 1 per member state. It was going to be reduced to 2/3, but this was a major issue brought up by the irish and it was reverted back to 1 each. If the comission unanimously vote in favour of more or less per state, this can change.


You are wrong again, The Republic of China (Taiwan) is not recognised by any country (and the United Nations) which wishes to have formal diplomatic relations with the Peoples Republic of China, any country wishing to have formal relations with the Peoples Republic of China has to accept the 'One-China policy' and the United Kingdom, United States and most nations around the world have accepted this. The example of the ROC is the same as the EU.

Wrong again. The ROC is recognised by some states including the Vatican. We have to state that we accept the 'One-China' policy, however the UK only 'takes note' and has publically said that the future of taiwan needs to be decided between them peacefully.



Josef Stalin was elected by members of the communist party, because someone is elected does not give them the right to elect someone else on 500+ million peoples' behalf. It isn't hard to leave the European Union, which you dont seem to understand and neither do many of the politicians in the United Kingdom, you tell them you are leaving - its that simple. You tend to mention this clause for pullout a lot, so do you accept that if the Lisbon Treaty is passed and implemented, that every European nation should hold a referendum on European Union membership seeing as it now has a proper pullout clause?

However, you are changing the situation here. Not everyone supported the communist party or was a member of it, so therefore did not have a right to vote. Everyone of legal age has the right to vote in national (and therefore also which party is likely to sit in the comission) and in the eu parliament. It isn't as simple as walking out of the EU, new treaties have to be drawn up for trade/labour, those working in EU institutions, projects in the process of being funded by the EU. And as i've said before, no, why should everyone have a referendum? If you want out of the EU, don't vote for an EU nation. Almost every other EU nation has PR which, in theory, makes it even more easy.


If the European Union does not desire to become a state, why has it oposed and moved in many areas to grab hold of taxation, foreign policy, defence, monetary issues, internal issues and regulations, agriculture, fishing, and defence. That is statehood. I never said the Republic of China do claim to be an independant state and I do know of their unstable relationship with the Peoples Republic of China, hence why I have said China is the biggest threat to world peace many times over - the point I was making is that neither are offical, but both act as countrys (The EU and ROC).
Because in order to create a single-market, many elements need to be regulated so firms from all member states have equal rights etc. I never said that you said that ROC declared itself a country. China isn't a threat. It requires us to buy their goods for their wealth.

If the lisbon treaty passes, if 1 000 000 citizens sign a petition they can force the commission to write up a bill.

[-:Undertaker:-]

YOU ARE SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO STUPID. SERIOUSLY. YOU MUST NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT A PARLIAMENT IS, WHO MPs/MEPs ARE ELECTED BY, NOR WHO THEY REPRESENT. EVERY TIME SOMEONE PUT 'X' BY THE NAME OF THEIR MP WHEN THEY VOTED, VOTED FOR THE EU. EVERY TIME. EVERY TIME. THAT'S HOW A DEMOCRACY WORKS. YOU VOTE FOR THE PARTY AND IT'S POLICIES. IF IT'S POLICIES INCLUDE WORKING WITH/IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, THEN YOU HAVE IN FACT VOTED IN FAVOUR FOR BRITAIN REMAINING IN IT. THAT'S HOW IT WORKS. THE SAME ARGUMENT HOLDS FOR WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-THE-SMOKING-BAN, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-WEED-TO-GO-TO-CLASS-B, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-THE-HUNTING-BAN, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-TO-JOIN-THE-UN, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-THE-ONE-WAY-EXTRADITION-TREATY-WITH-THE-USA, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-IN-OUR-REPRESENTATIVE-AT-THE-UN WE DON'T HOLD REFERENDUMS ON MOST/ALL LAWS/TREATIES BECAUSE IT UNDER-MINDS PARLIAMENT AND THE ELECTED DEMOCRACY PROCESS.

Those policies you named, none of them make up 75%+ of our laws. They are irrelevent to the discussion. The Consitituion of the Republic of Ireland itself states that any signifigant power loss has to be put to a referendum, hence why the Lisbon Treaty was put to referendum.

If everyone is so supportive of the EU everytime they put an 'X' in the box next to the partys like you say, then whats stopping you and whats the big problem with holding a referendum on it? - surely you dont think it'll lose.. oh wait! you know it will lose!.

Untrue, the number of comissioners has been decided to stick to 1 per member state. It was going to be reduced to 2/3, but this was a major issue brought up by the irish and it was reverted back to 1 each. If the comission unanimously vote in favour of more or less per state, this can change.

I couldn't care how many there are to be quite frank, none are elected and these are the people who make over 75% of Europes' laws and regulations. They are not elected before you say they are, Josef Stalin was elected by the Communist Party, doesnt mean hes elected.


Wrong again. The ROC is recognised by some states including the Vatican. We have to state that we accept the 'One-China' policy, however the UK only 'takes note' and has publically said that the future of taiwan needs to be decided between them peacefully

The Vatican.. come on what a terrible example. The major world powers accept the One-China policy because they are terrified of the Peoples Republic of China and allow themselves to be blackmailed into accepting it, despite the Republic of China being basically independant for over fifty years. The Republic of China acts as a state but is not offically a state, therefore it is the same as the European Union.


However, you are changing the situation here. Not everyone supported the communist party or was a member of it, so therefore did not have a right to vote. Everyone of legal age has the right to vote in national (and therefore also which party is likely to sit in the comission) and in the eu parliament. It isn't as simple as walking out of the EU, new treaties have to be drawn up for trade/labour, those working in EU institutions, projects in the process of being funded by the EU. And as i've said before, no, why should everyone have a referendum? If you want out of the EU, don't vote for an EU nation. Almost every other EU nation has PR which, in theory, makes it even more easy.

Why should we get a referendum? - because we are the PEOPLE who DESERVE a vote and were PROMISED a vote.

Typical arrogance.


Because in order to create a single-market, many elements need to be regulated so firms from all member states have equal rights etc. I never said that you said that ROC declared itself a country. China isn't a threat. It requires us to buy their goods for their wealth.

If the lisbon treaty passes, if 1 000 000 citizens sign a petition they can force the commission to write up a bill.

The Peoples Republic of China is a threat to world peace, if they do indeed launch an attack on the Republic of China to fully unite China once again, this will cause conflict as Taiwan is heavily guarded by US ships and a democratic country, would not (I hope) be allowed to be taken over by the socialist elite in China. NATO & PLA ships have already clashed before and went to war in Korea if you remember.

How about this, instead of passing the treaty then making silly bills on things, how about the European Union give the people of Europe a referendum on A) Do we want the Lisbon Treaty? and B) Do we want to be in the European Union?.

..but I have said this before, and all you come back with is the same claptrap of how the EU is apparently democratic - well how about doing the democratic thing and accepting people want a say.

You won't though, because you know what would happen if people were given a say.

[alexxxxx]

Those policies you named, none of them make up 75%+ of our laws.

They are laws all the same and in your view, if we are having a referendum on the treaty with the rest of the EU, why shouldn't we have a referendum on these subjects as these equally effect all of our lives. Why is the signing of this treaty any different to the signing of any other bill? They all affect us. Now why won't you tell me why we can't have a referendum on the repeal of the copyright law? pretty much is the same.

you know what i think with a reasoned debate, people will see that the benefits outway the bad points and I think that a referendum would pass if there was no major media or personal interest interference throughout most, if not all, member states, including this one.

plus a do you want to get in and out of the EU isn't a great question. many people may wish to be in the EU but want to change the way in which it works or don't agree in it's current direction. the best way to change it is through changing it through politics or through the inside. we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

referendums are not the answer to this issue. if people in this country don't want the EU they should vote in UKIP so they win seats in the Parliament in both the EU Parliament and UK Parliament. they will then pull us out of it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

you know what i think with a reasoned debate, people will see that the benefits outway the bad points and I think that a referendum would pass if there was no major media or personal interest interference throughout most, if not all, member states, including this one.

plus a do you want to get in and out of the EU isn't a great question. many people may wish to be in the EU but want to change the way in which it works or don't agree in it's current direction. the best way to change it is through changing it through politics or through the inside. we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


We live in a democratic country, thus anybody; the media, the political partys - anyone can say what they want on the European Union. You are basically proposing we enforce a police state because you know that the treaty and the Union itself would be defeated come a referendum, you know it and you hate it.

It is very simple, you have two questioins on the ballot paper, A) Do you want the United Kingdom to adopt the Lisbon Treaty? and B) Do you think on a broader scale, the United Kingdom should withdraw from the European Union? - not a trick question, very simple and people can make their own minds up, just as they do in elections, which path they will vote for.

The best way to change it to do what the people want, thats what democracy was last time I checked.

[alexxxxx]

We live in a democratic country, thus anybody; the media, the political partys - anyone can say what they want on the European Union. You are basically proposing we enforce a police state because you know that the treaty and the Union itself would be defeated come a referendum, you know it and you hate it.

No, the media does not have a moral right in my view to spew lies, opinion dn other rubbish so voters cannot make an informed decision. That's why I think that the press should be free to report on what they want, but everything they say must be 100% true. In the real world this can't exist. Which is why that on specific issues like this, a referendum can't work.


It is very simple, you have two questioins on the ballot paper, A) Do you want the United Kingdom to adopt the Lisbon Treaty? and B) Do you think on a broader scale, the United Kingdom should withdraw from the European Union? - not a trick question, very simple and people can make their own minds up, just as they do in elections, which path they will vote for.

Should Britain withdraw from the EU and attempt to join the EEA?
Should Britain withdraw from the EU and attempt to join the EFTA?
Should Britain withdraw from the EU and other european markets?
Should Britain withdraw from the EU and cut off all diplomatic ties with EU member states?
Plus countless more options. That's why we have a parliament to do it for us.



The best way to change it to do what the people want, thats what democracy was last time I checked.
[/QUOTE]
Most people think it's OK morally to download music off limewire. Most people think it's OK to break the speed limit. It doesn't mean it's okay or right.


democracy
/dimokrsi/

• noun (pl. democracies) a form of government in which the people have a voice in the exercise of power, typically through elected representatives.


i don't see how this government sending a commissioner to the EU isn't democratic as these MPs who therefore create the government send a commissioner to the EU. this is democratic. they are doing what the people want. if they aren't, why do people constantly vote in people that aren't doing what they want - ie, removing them from the European union.

[Bun]

You have just made my point even easier for people to see and have amplified it, they took us into (although looking back we can all see it was a awful move) the European Economic Community and not the European Union, two totally different things.

+rep :)
init and it was nice of major to keep us in in 1993 x

[-:Undertaker:-]

No, the media does not have a moral right in my view to spew lies, opinion dn other rubbish so voters cannot make an informed decision. That's why I think that the press should be free to report on what they want, but everything they say must be 100% true. In the real world this can't exist. Which is why that on specific issues like this, a referendum can't work.

The government lies, and it lied over the invasion of Iraq - it is the public who decide who they believe, as we do in real life. A poor excuse form someone who has run out of ideas to dodge the referendum issue, you say specific issues like this, well what you really mean is 'issues that I know are unpopular and would lose in a referendum' - what right have you and other europhiles got to tell the people of Europe, most who had lived since 1944/45 under the Soviet Union including the Czech & Polish Presidents' - show some balls and face the debate for once, instead of crying and whining on about some conspiracy that Rupert Murdoch has indoctrinated the British public into right wing beliefs.


Should Britain withdraw from the EU and attempt to join the EEA?
Should Britain withdraw from the EU and attempt to join the EFTA?
Should Britain withdraw from the EU and other european markets?
Should Britain withdraw from the EU and cut off all diplomatic ties with EU member states?
Plus countless more options. That's why we have a parliament to do it for us.

Yet another poor example by you, you gave the poor example of the Vatican State recognizing the Republic of China as an offical nation to back up your argument which was just.. ahh disaster.

Does India have to cut ties with the EU?
Does Iceland have to cut ties with the EU?
Does Burma have to cut ties with the EU?
Does Iran have to cut ties with the EU?
Do the 150+ countrys across the world have to cut ties with the EU just because they are not in it?

You and the European Union build up this imaginary image of the United Kingdom becoming isolationist if it leaves the European Union - it is absolute and utter propaganda. Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Ukraine and other European nations are not in the European Union and are not isolationist, so no we would not have all those questions you put down on that - you make it up as you go along.

It is a very simple question, should the United Kingdom remain in the European Union? - that does not mean should we server ties with Europe, should we sever economic trading with Europe - it means as it says.


Most people think it's OK morally to download music off limewire. Most people think it's OK to break the speed limit. It doesn't mean it's okay or right.

democracy
/dimokrsi/

• noun (pl. democracies) a form of government in which the people have a voice in the exercise of power, typically through elected representatives.

Another poor example, i'm afraid Limewire does not make over 75%+ of the United Kingdoms' laws now, does it?.


i don't see how this government sending a commissioner to the EU isn't democratic as these MPs who therefore create the government send a commissioner to the EU. this is democratic. they are doing what the people want. if they aren't, why do people constantly vote in people that aren't doing what they want - ie, removing them from the European union.

The people do not vote soley on the European Union, and you know as well as I do that without proportional representation it is very hard for a new party to emerge and gain ground. Although I could say that the European Parliamentary Elections where UKIP beat Labour was the British verdict on the European Union, so can we pull out now that its been confimed in an election and not a referendum, just as you always stress is le-git?.

If the European Union is so confident of its popularity, and you are, why are you refusing to give the people of Europe and the United Kingdom a say? - infact I don't want a reply (not that I get one anyway) but I want you to now admit, that if the people of the United Kingdom were given a say on the European Union (along with many other countries) that most countrys would leave, especially the United Kingdom? - am I right(?) yes or no.


init and it was nice of major to keep us in in 1993 x

I have no idea why you think the my views must mirror those of the Conservative Party all the time, because I have criticised the Conservatives aswell about not taking action and I will criticise them exactly the same as I have criticised Labour over the EU when they are in office.

[LuketheDuke]

The referendum in the 70's represented the chance to move into the EEC which was then what we now know as the EU. Since then the EU has involved and taken on more duties, the EEC being one of them.

So technically we did vote yes for the EU so I dont get these anti arguments.

I still think Mr Undertaker needs to read the Lisbon Treaty otherwise how on earth can he create a credible argument against it. Thats like saying someone ive never met but only heard things about is an idiot.

Now that really does smack of arrogence.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The referendum in the 70's represented the chance to move into the EEC which was then what we now know as the EU. Since then the EU has involved and taken on more duties, the EEC being one of them.

So technically we did vote yes for the EU so I dont get these anti arguments.

I still think Mr Undertaker needs to read the Lisbon Treaty otherwise how on earth can he create a credible argument against it. Thats like saying someone ive never met but only heard things about is an idiot.

Now that really does smack of arrogence.

The-European-Economic-Community-is-not-the-European-Union.

We voted for a economic community called the EEC, not for a political, social and economic union called the European Union. On the issue of me reading the treaty - I do not need to read sheets and sheets of European propaganda thank you very much, I can see it installs a President and gives extra powers over taxation, abortion and a whole other manner of things, Europhiles have said it themselves, that the ultimate aim is to create a European Federal superstate. Caroline Flint, who was EU minister at the time, who argued for the Lisbon Treaty telling the public they could not make a correct decision themselves - she herself had not read the treaty.

Perhaps its time you got off your high horse and stop covering your ears, and maybe give the people a chance to give their opinions on the Lisbon Treaty and the European Union, instead of arrogantly dismissing and basis for a referendum to be cast.

[LuketheDuke]

The-European-Economic-Community-is-not-the-European-Union.

We voted for a economic community called the EEC, not for a political, social and economic union called the European Union. On the issue of me reading the treaty - I do not need to read sheets and sheets of European propaganda thank you very much, I can see it installs a President and gives extra powers over taxation, abortion and a whole other manner of things, Europhiles have said it themselves, that the ultimate aim is to create a European Federal superstate. Caroline Flint, who was EU minister at the time, who argued for the Lisbon Treaty telling the public they could not make a correct decision themselves - she herself had not read the treaty.

Perhaps its time you got off your high horse and stop covering your ears, and maybe give the people a chance to give their opinions on the Lisbon Treaty and the European Union, instead of arrogantly dismissing and basis for a referendum to be cast.


the EEC is now part of the EU, they arent seperate entities i tells ya!

you make the point of people not reading the Lisbon Treaty, wouldnt it be a good idea if we all sat down, read it and then discussed what we did and didnt like? this isnt even a for or against argument it kinda annoys me how everyone argues about it but dont know what its about, even its authors!

[-:Undertaker:-]

the EEC is now part of the EU, they arent seperate entities i tells ya!

you make the point of people not reading the Lisbon Treaty, wouldnt it be a good idea if we all sat down, read it and then discussed what we did and didnt like? this isnt even a for or against argument it kinda annoys me how everyone argues about it but dont know what its about, even its authors!

I cannot believe this, maybe i'll have to explain it like a simpleton.



The European Economic Community

Economic co-operation
The European Union

Political union
Economic union
Social union
China has remained the same entity for thousands of years, it once spanned across asia, decreased back to the eastern cost, expanded again inland, occupied the Kingdom of Tibet, lost control of Taiwan - it isnt the same as it was one thousand years ago, nor the same as it was back in 1900 yet it is totally different and has changed governmental system numerous times.

We do not read party manifestos' when we elect a party, so why would anybody want to read the Lisbon Treaty when everybody knows the basics of the treaty; creation of the presidential post, more control over taxation, abortion and working hours aloong with numerous other areas.

Instead of thinking of all the excuses on the planet to avoid giving the people a say on the referendum, why will you not accept the need the need and right for a referendum, and put your efforts into urging a yes vote, rather than trying to worm your way out in every manner possible? - do I sense a possible feeling of 'the British people would never fall for it?'(?).

[LuketheDuke]

I cannot believe this, maybe i'll have to explain it like a simpleton.





The European Economic Community

Economic co-operation
The European Union

Political union
Economic union
Social union
China has remained the same entity for thousands of years, it once spanned across asia, decreased back to the eastern cost, expanded again inland, occupied the Kingdom of Tibet, lost control of Taiwan - it isnt the same as it was one thousand years ago, nor the same as it was back in 1900 yet it is totally different and has changed governmental system numerous times.

We do not read party manifestos' when we elect a party, so why would anybody want to read the Lisbon Treaty when everybody knows the basics of the treaty; creation of the presidential post, more control over taxation, abortion and working hours aloong with numerous other areas.

Instead of thinking of all the excuses on the planet to avoid giving the people a say on the referendum, why will you not accept the need the need and right for a referendum, and put your efforts into urging a yes vote, rather than trying to worm your way out in every manner possible? - do I sense a possible feeling of 'the British people would never fall for it?'(?).


EEC is an abbreviation which usually refers to the European Economic Community (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community), which has now become part of the European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union).


^^Im not going crazy when I see things like that then?

And people interested in politics read stuff like manifesto's and treaties, maybe not that berk who you mentioned but a lot do and analyse them accordingly. People interested in politics would also see the non binding manner of referenda and instead wait til the General Election next year and see what the major parties have to say about it.

End of the day you wont vote for a pro EU party as will a lot of other people, these votes will hope to seek representation for your views. This in turn can create resistance in government and be a lot more effective than a referendum.

[-:Undertaker:-]

EEC is an abbreviation which usually refers to the European Economic Community (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community), which has now become part of the European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union).


^^Im not going crazy when I see things like that then?

And people interested in politics read stuff like manifesto's and treaties, maybe not that berk who you mentioned but a lot do and analyse them accordingly. People interested in politics would also see the non binding manner of referenda and instead wait til the General Election next year and see what the major parties have to say about it.

End of the day you wont for a pro EU party as will a lot of other people, these votes will hope to seek representation for your views. This in turn can create resistance in government and be a lot more effective than a referendum.

Totally ignoring my points, I am not talking about whether we call it EU, European Union, EEC, European Economic Community - I have clearly shown above how the EEC evolved into the European Union, covering areas which we did not expect or vote for when we voted for the EEC back in the 1970s'. A real reply on that would be warmly welcomed.

What do you propose then? - all people who do not read manifestos and treaties should have their democratic vote taken away because they do not understand it?. We do not need to analyse treaties or manifestos to form an opinon on something, otherwise if we did, nobody would ever form an opinon on anything.

I have not read the full books/events that formed Conservatism, yet I still know I am conservative in idealogy because I believe in the right of the individual, and the case for economic freedom along with political and social freedom. It does not mean I am any less a conservative than somebody who had read on them issues.

It will not be more effective than a referendum, you know as well as I know (so lets stop pretending) that politics swings in recent years, because the incumbent government has become unpopular, not because there has been a sudden mood swing/idealogical change amongst the public.

A referendum is a simple yes or no question, with a full campaign from both sides leading up to it. Of course you would do anything to avoid something like this because you know full well that the British people do not like the European Union, never have agreed to it and never ever will do.

[LuketheDuke]

Totally ignoring my points, I am not talking about whether we call it EU, European Union, EEC, European Economic Community - I have clearly shown above how the EEC evolved into the European Union, covering areas which we did not expect or vote for when we voted for the EEC back in the 1970s'. A real reply on that would be warmly welcomed.

What do you propose then? - all people who do not read manifestos and treaties should have their democratic vote taken away because they do not understand it?. We do not need to analyse treaties or manifestos to form an opinon on something, otherwise if we did, nobody would ever form an opinon on anything.

I have not read the full books/events that formed Conservatism, yet I still know I am conservative in idealogy because I believe in the right of the individual, and the case for economic freedom along with political and social freedom. It does not mean I am any less a conservative than somebody who had read on them issues.

It will not be more effective than a referendum, you know as well as I know (so lets stop pretending) that politics swings in recent years, because the incumbent government has become unpopular, not because there has been a sudden mood swing/idealogical change amongst the public.

A referendum is a simple yes or no question, with a full campaign from both sides leading up to it. Of course you would do anything to avoid something like this because you know full well that the British people do not like the European Union, never have agreed to it and never ever will do.


The EEC is part of the EU, you cant have one without the other so I think its a pretty sweet response to when you try and set them apart tyvm.

And no people dont have to read manifesto's etc and I never made the point that everyone should have to. But I do argue that if you want know something about something maybe you should consult the source first. Thats not even a political statement thats just simple criticism which maybe some MP's should try as well.

If referenda were statute maybe we could have them more but the fact is they arent so whats the point in demanding one? What I do know is I can vote on this issue if i so choose too and GE's facilitate democracy making it an outlet where I can truly express a grivience.

Im not arguing at you, I may not support a lot of things you say because they simply arent realistic but you've got to make do with the system your given. Otherwise become a revolutionary and buy a beret.

[Bun]

i'm not even trolling here but it must suck to be so against something, when deep down you know it's not going to be abolished or riddened of. :(

[vimcubcil]

uhm,Thanks so much 4 sharing with us,bros :-)

[-:Undertaker:-]

The EEC is part of the EU, you cant have one without the other so I think its a pretty sweet response to when you try and set them apart tyvm.

And no people dont have to read manifesto's etc and I never made the point that everyone should have to. But I do argue that if you want know something about something maybe you should consult the source first. Thats not even a political statement thats just simple criticism which maybe some MP's should try as well.

If referenda were statute maybe we could have them more but the fact is they arent so whats the point in demanding one? What I do know is I can vote on this issue if i so choose too and GE's facilitate democracy making it an outlet where I can truly express a grivience.

Im not arguing at you, I may not support a lot of things you say because they simply arent realistic but you've got to make do with the system your given. Otherwise become a revolutionary and buy a beret.

You have ignored it again, we voted for EEC and not EU, so therefore anybody with common sense would agree, that as we have not voted for the EU we need to do so.

What the point in demanding one? - we were promised, the European Union is unelected, the European Union makes over 75% of our laws, the European Union is not wanted and finally we are a democracy, so yes we should have a referendum on the European Union.

Anybody who opposes the European Union has my support and the support of millions in this country and across Europe, the European Union issue will become a far bigger issue in years to come than it is now, believe me. Europe is on course to clash.


i'm not even trolling here but it must suck to be so against something, when deep down you know it's not going to be abolished or riddened of. :(

It must suck to be as funny and as witty as you.

[alexxxxx]

The government lies, and it lied over the invasion of Iraq - it is the public who decide who they believe, as we do in real life. A poor excuse form someone who has run out of ideas to dodge the referendum issue, you say specific issues like this, well what you really mean is 'issues that I know are unpopular and would lose in a referendum' - what right have you and other europhiles got to tell the people of Europe, most who had lived since 1944/45 under the Soviet Union including the Czech & Polish Presidents' - show some balls and face the debate for once, instead of crying and whining on about some conspiracy that Rupert Murdoch has indoctrinated the British public into right wing beliefs.

All governments lie yes. But the facts of the lisbon treaty are there in writing for everyone to see and read, but unfortunately, it's several hundred pages long. Some people still believe that invading Iraq was a good idea but many others disagree. The problem with this argument is that the event has already passed and we didn't know how it was going to end up. We already know what will happen when the lisbon treaty comes into force.



Yet another poor example by you, you gave the poor example of the Vatican State recognizing the Republic of China as an offical nation to back up your argument which was just.. ahh disaster.

The Vatican City is a sovereign state. So are the several other nations that recognise it. The USA and UK would probably prefer to recognise both, but as we are more heavily involved with PROC then that's who we're more likely to align with.


Does India have to cut ties with the EU?
Does Iceland have to cut ties with the EU?
Does Burma have to cut ties with the EU?
Does Iran have to cut ties with the EU?
Do the 150+ countrys across the world have to cut ties with the EU just because they are not in it?

Well the EU has cut some ties with Iran, so yes. Myanmar/Burma also. ie But that's for other reasons. We wouldn't have to cut ties with the EU, no, i was just pointing out that giving the choice to British public isn't as simple of YES/NO there are different levels. Being in the EEA requires us to conform to EU laws on regulation and some other laws, but without a say in how they are formed.


You and the European Union build up this imaginary image of the United Kingdom becoming isolationist if it leaves the European Union - it is absolute and utter propaganda. Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Ukraine and other European nations are not in the European Union and are not isolationist, so no we would not have all those questions you put down on that - you make it up as you go along.

Norway, a member of the EEA, has to conform to rules as i told you above. Iceland also, but iceland is currently having a debate in moving into the EU. Croatia wishes to join + others.


It is a very simple question, should the United Kingdom remain in the European Union? - that does not mean should we server ties with Europe, should we sever economic trading with Europe - it means as it says.

There is EU and EUlite (ie EEA).



Another poor example, i'm afraid Limewire does not make over 75%+ of the United Kingdoms' laws now, does it?.

But it still affects our lives, which is the point. So does the treaty with the US. The EU's regulation generally only affects Businesses and rules on the Common Market and the environment, not criminal law. These laws generally don't affect our lives as criminal law. So why won't you give us a referendum on the speed limit on the motorways?



The people do not vote soley on the European Union, and you know as well as I do that without proportional representation it is very hard for a new party to emerge and gain ground. Although I could say that the European Parliamentary Elections where UKIP beat Labour was the British verdict on the European Union, so can we pull out now that its been confimed in an election and not a referendum, just as you always stress is le-git?.

Yes, UKIP beat Labour, but they didn't beat Labour and the LibDems, both pro-euro parties. So actually no, that argument doesn't hold.


If the European Union is so confident of its popularity, and you are, why are you refusing to give the people of Europe and the United Kingdom a say? - infact I don't want a reply (not that I get one anyway) but I want you to now admit, that if the people of the United Kingdom were given a say on the European Union (along with many other countries) that most countrys would leave, especially the United Kingdom? - am I right(?) yes or no.

Because the european union HAS The support it needs? It would cost millions and millions of taxpayers money on a result that would probably end up as yes.

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/activities/sip/docs/rep_template/euro_flag.png
viva europa.

[-:Undertaker:-]

All governments lie yes. But the facts of the lisbon treaty are there in writing for everyone to see and read, but unfortunately, it's several hundred pages long. Some people still believe that invading Iraq was a good idea but many others disagree. The problem with this argument is that the event has already passed and we didn't know how it was going to end up. We already know what will happen when the lisbon treaty comes into force.


The Vatican City is a sovereign state. So are the several other nations that recognise it. The USA and UK would probably prefer to recognise both, but as we are more heavily involved with PROC then that's who we're more likely to align with.

Well the EU has cut some ties with Iran, so yes. Myanmar/Burma also. ie But that's for other reasons. We wouldn't have to cut ties with the EU, no, i was just pointing out that giving the choice to British public isn't as simple of YES/NO there are different levels. Being in the EEA requires us to conform to EU laws on regulation and some other laws, but without a say in how they are formed.

Norway, a member of the EEA, has to conform to rules as i told you above. Iceland also, but iceland is currently having a debate in moving into the EU. Croatia wishes to join + others.

There is EU and EUlite (ie EEA).


But it still affects our lives, which is the point. So does the treaty with the US. The EU's regulation generally only affects Businesses and rules on the Common Market and the environment, not criminal law. These laws generally don't affect our lives as criminal law. So why won't you give us a referendum on the speed limit on the motorways?


Yes, UKIP beat Labour, but they didn't beat Labour and the LibDems, both pro-euro parties. So actually no, that argument doesn't hold.

Because the european union HAS The support it needs? It would cost millions and millions of taxpayers money on a result that would probably end up as yes.

The Vatican State was a poor example, the states that accept the Republic of China rather than the Peoples Republic of China are non-states, aka states that do not matter and have no influence or power. The argument I gave of the Republic of China, which backed up the argument of because something isn't offical doesn't mean it cant act as a country or state still holds, and you haven't come up with a decent reply except saying that the Vatican recognises the Republic of China - so would you now like to think of another excuse (one which holds water) to that argument?.

There are not different levels, the question of cutting ties with the European Union itself and European countrys would not even be on a proposed ballot, so grow up and stop thinking up stupid scenarios that just would never ever happen or are possible/realistic.

I am talking about the European Union, the union which dominates political, social and economic policy here. Anything else also under the umbrealla of Europe that also operates as that would also be up for referendum.

The motorways and Limewire do not make over 75% of our laws, the laws in this country - that is why I wouldn't give a referendum on motorways or Limewire, not to mention the fact they have nothing to do with the issue and its just you trying to worm your way out. A union that makes over 75% of our laws is not the same as Limewire/motorway speed limit, so try harder next time to think of something that actually makes sense and stands up, rather than something a 5-year old child would think up.

UKIP + Conservative + BNP votes = more than Liberal Democrats and Labour combined, so yes that argument does stand up. You yourself said referendums don't work (maybe because you know your cause would be beaten) but in the European elections it was proven, by the success of UKIP that people do not want European Union.


Because the european union HAS The support it needs? It would cost millions and millions of taxpayers money on a result that would probably end up as yes.

Do not avoid the issue of a referendum based on the cost, when we give billions a year to the European Union.

You refuse to give us a referendum despite saying the European Union has the support of the British public, do you know what someone who is scared of being beaten is called? - a coward.

[alexxxxx]

The Vatican State was a poor example, the states that accept the Republic of China rather than the Peoples Republic of China are non-states, aka states that do not matter and have no influence or power. The argument I gave of the Republic of China, which backed up the argument of because something isn't offical doesn't mean it cant act as a country or state still holds, and you haven't come up with a decent reply except saying that the Vatican recognises the Republic of China - so would you now like to think of another excuse (one which holds water) to that argument?.

Scotland acts as a country in many areas but isn't sovereign? I don't know what i'm trying to argue against you. The EU isn't a state, nor will it be.



There are not different levels, the question of cutting ties with the European Union itself and European countrys would not even be on a proposed ballot, so grow up and stop thinking up stupid scenarios that just would never ever happen or are possible/realistic.

Then you know nothing about the EU and EEA. Why not? I thought this was a democracy where we have to check every possibility. :rolleyes:



I am talking about the European Union, the union which dominates political, social and economic policy here. Anything else also under the umbrealla of Europe that also operates as that would also be up for referendum.

Well the EU ISN'T the EEA.


The motorways and Limewire do not make over 75% of our laws, the laws in this country - that is why I wouldn't give a referendum on motorways or Limewire, not to mention the fact they have nothing to do with the issue and its just you trying to worm your way out. A union that makes over 75% of our laws is not the same as Limewire/motorway speed limit, so try harder next time to think of something that actually makes sense and stands up, rather than something a 5-year old child would think up.

But they still affect our lives. Why won't you give us a referendum on the


UKIP + Conservative + BNP votes = more than Liberal Democrats and Labour combined, so yes that argument does stand up. You yourself said referendums don't work (maybe because you know your cause would be beaten) but in the European elections it was proven, by the success of UKIP that people do not want European Union.

The Conservatives are PRO-EU. So I don't see your argument. =\



Do not avoid the issue of a referendum based on the cost, when we give billions a year to the European Union.

You refuse to give us a referendum despite saying the European Union has the support of the British public, do you know what someone who is scared of being beaten is called? - a coward.
I AM NOT REFUSING YOU ANYTHING! AHAHA. WHO AM I? A 17 YEAR OLD IN NOTTINGHAM. NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY POLITICAL PARTY. WHAT POWER DO I HAVE - NOTHING. I KNOW FROM YOUR POSTS YOU ARE EVEN YOUNGER. What GCSEs did you get? Which A-Levels are you doing? I'd love to know so I can guage what kind of a person you are. Don't you dare call me a coward. I fight with reason and logic.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Scotland acts as a country in many areas but isn't sovereign? I don't know what i'm trying to argue against you. The EU isn't a state, nor will it be.

That only backs up my point, something doesn't have to be offical to be a state in its own right; Republic of China (Taiwan), Scotland & the European Union.


Then you know nothing about the EU and EEA. Why not? I thought this was a democracy where we have to check every possibility. :rolleyes:

I don't care what you want to call it, if we seperated all the European Union into different areas then of course it can span from E(insert two letters here) - we want to leave the European Union, which is very simple from what you are trying to make out. That means when somebody asks 'is the United Kingdom in the European Union' the answer would be no - simple, get it?.


Well the EU ISN'T the EEA.

..then what is your point? - I said leave the European Union.


But they still affect our lives.Why won't you give us a referendum on the

They do not affect our lives to the extent of the European Union, which makes over 75% of our laws, are you refusing to see this or are you actually blind to this fact?


The Conservatives are PRO-EU. So I don't see your argument. =\

The Conservatives are not pro-European Union, they are split and policy changes all the time, if they were pro-EU they would support the European Union and the Treaty of Lisbon, along with installing Tony Blair as European President.

UKIP and the Conservatives both beat Labour and the Liberal Democrats, which I think clearly shows even to the most stupid person, that the European Union is not wanted by the British public.


I AM NOT REFUSING YOU ANYTHING! AHAHA. WHO AM I? A 17 YEAR OLD IN NOTTINGHAM. NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY POLITICAL PARTY. WHAT POWER DO I HAVE - NOTHING. I KNOW FROM YOUR POSTS YOU ARE EVEN YOUNGER. What GCSEs did you get? Which A-Levels are you doing? I'd love to know so I can guage what kind of a person you are. Don't you dare call me a coward. I fight with reason and logic.

It does make me laugh when people say 'I have a A-level in such and such therefore I know more than you and you are wrong' - a sign that somebody has totally lost the plot, cracked and has ran out of useful or intelligent things to say.

Oh come on, of course you're a coward - you tell me that if a referendum on European Union and the Lisbon Treaty took place it would pass and therefore you are so sure it would pass, holding a referendum on it would be pointless - prove it; why do you and the left continue the argument to refuse the people of this country a say on something which people want a say on, and if its so popular it would only deepen your cause and would make me look like the idiot - but you won't, because you are terrified of the European Union being voted on because people do not want it.

..refusing to take the case to the public is cowardice, only those who are afraid of losing have something to lose if a referendum was held.

[alexxxxx]

That only backs up my point, something doesn't have to be offical to be a state in its own right; Republic of China (Taiwan), Scotland & the European Union.

Nu-uh. Scotland acts like a country in many ways, it makes alot of its own laws, it has a different education system, yet it isn't a sovereign state. The European Union makes some laws, has common rules, yet isn't a sovereign state. It's the same thing.


I don't care what you want to call it, if we seperated all the European Union into different areas then of course it can span from E(insert two letters here) - we want to leave the European Union, which is very simple from what you are trying to make out. That means when somebody asks 'is the United Kingdom in the European Union' the answer would be no - simple, get it?.

The EEC no longer exists. It evolved into the EC in the European Union (as one of the three sections). The EEA is EUlite, which is what Norway and Iceland have where they have to accept EU Law (without being able to have a say in it), no EU funding but also there is free movement of people. We still have to pay some money into the EEA/EU but not as much as if we're in the EU.



..then what is your point? - I said leave the European Union.

The EEA isn't the EU, but it still has to abide by EU legislation.



They do not affect our lives to the extent of the European Union, which makes over 75% of our laws, are you refusing to see this or are you actually blind to this fact?

Most EU laws do not affect people at ground level, but I am pointing out that if we starting throwing around referendums, which are bad for democracy if you ask me, as it under-minds parliament, why should we have referendums on some issues but not others, as some people view some laws as affecting their lives more-so than others.



The Conservatives are not pro-European Union, they are split and policy changes all the time, if they were pro-EU they would support the European Union and the Treaty of Lisbon, along with installing Tony Blair as European President.

I can't believe you just said that the tories aren't pro-eu. I just can't believe you just said that. THEY SIGNED THE MAASTRICHT TREATY WHICH FORMED THE EU AS IT IS TODAY! They are split, yes, that's why Cameron is trying to keep talk down on the Lisbon Treaty because there is LARGE support of it. Alot of Tories, including Ken Clarke, were against a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Plus, being against the Lisbon Treaty, is not being against the EU. We are all citizens of EU states and therefore we are allowed to dislike the way our union is deviating, just like a UK national is allowed to dislike how labour steered our union.


UKIP and the Conservatives both beat Labour and the Liberal Democrats, which I think clearly shows even to the most stupid person, that the European Union is not wanted by the British public.

As above.



It does make me laugh when people say 'I have a A-level in such and such therefore I know more than you and you are wrong' - a sign that somebody has totally lost the plot, cracked and has ran out of useful or intelligent things to say.

No, I'm sorry, you're wrong. People who have qualifications in subjects that teach you how certain decisions are made (ie Economics), can understand why certain decisions are better than others yet can be unpopular.


Oh come on, of course you're a coward - you tell me that if a referendum on European Union and the Lisbon Treaty took place it would pass and therefore you are so sure it would pass, holding a referendum on it would be pointless - prove it; why do you and the left continue the argument to refuse the people of this country a say on something which people want a say on, and if its so popular it would only deepen your cause and would make me look like the idiot - but you won't, because you are terrified of the European Union being voted on because people do not want it.

..refusing to take the case to the public is cowardice, only those who are afraid of losing have something to lose if a referendum was held.
Like I said, I think the Lisbon Treaty would win, if people are correctly informed and not misinformed by lies or great distortions, or if they would read the treaty. But this won't happen and someone who can't/won't take the time to really understand what they are voting on, or won't vote on the subject at hand (ie, not 'punishing' the government or getting confused at what they are voting for, my great aunt for example thought the Irish were voting on whether the EU should be disbanded or not), then the referendum is useless.

It's not only the 'left' that don't want a referendum, nor is the EU a 'leftist' organisation. There are plenty of conservatives that want to stay in the EU.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Nu-uh. Scotland acts like a country in many ways, it makes alot of its own laws, it has a different education system, yet it isn't a sovereign state. The European Union makes some laws, has common rules, yet isn't a sovereign state. It's the same thing.

..that is why I said the Republic of China, Scotland and the European Union are the same, they are states in their own right. Therefore as the issue of the United Kingdom being merged into a federal European superstate is such a big issue, there should be a referendum on it.


The EEC no longer exists. It evolved into the EC in the European Union (as one of the three sections). The EEA is EUlite, which is what Norway and Iceland have where they have to accept EU Law (without being able to have a say in it), no EU funding but also there is free movement of people. We still have to pay some money into the EEA/EU but not as much as if we're in the EU.

That just deepens the case for a referendum, we did not vote for European Union we voted for the EEC therefore that referendum back in the 1970s' in annulled, it has no bearing anymore. The EEC was economic co-operation, the European Union is economic union, political union and social union which is totally different to what we voted for.


The EEA isn't the EU, but it still has to abide by EU legislation.

Then I would leave that aswell, and that should be put into a referendum. When I say 'leave the European Union' that means leave the European Union, as in they no longer have control over sovereign policy areas.


Most EU laws do not affect people at ground level, but I am pointing out that if we starting throwing around referendums, which are bad for democracy if you ask me, as it under-minds parliament, why should we have referendums on some issues but not others, as some people view some laws as affecting their lives more-so than others.

We should have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty because it is such a big issue, the European Union affects more than 75% of our laws and affects everything from business right down to what fruit/light bulbs we buy. I would like to see referendums on more issues, but as Europe is the biggest issue, if anything deserves a referendum it is this.


I can't believe you just said that the tories aren't pro-eu. I just can't believe you just said that. THEY SIGNED THE MAASTRICHT TREATY WHICH FORMED THE EU AS IT IS TODAY! They are split, yes, that's why Cameron is trying to keep talk down on the Lisbon Treaty because there is LARGE support of it. Alot of Tories, including Ken Clarke, were against a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Plus, being against the Lisbon Treaty, is not being against the EU. We are all citizens of EU states and therefore we are allowed to dislike the way our union is deviating, just like a UK national is allowed to dislike how labour steered our union.

A lot of the Conservative elite are pro-EU that is right and the Conservatives constantly are split by the European Union issue. Margaret Thatcher has expressed regret of signing into the European Union as she only saw what was becoming of it as her term ended, the formation of a European superstate - hence why the European Union hated the Thatcher government as she forced them to give us a rebate.

There is not large support for the European Union, the tories risk large defection to UKIP at the next election, judging by comments on the Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph, BBC News and Sky News and I too would be voting for UKIP rather than the Conservatives because of Camerons' dithering.

Ken Clarke knows full well that is a referendum was held the Lisbon treaty would not pass, otherwise i'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with it. To be quite frank I couldn't care less what europhiles in the Conservative Party think, as long as the main party line is against the European Union. If the Conservatives truly represented the people then they would pledge to hold a referendum on both EU membership and the Lisbon Treaty, however there have been rumours that will be the case, with Davis, Pickles and Johnson hinting at that.

I am not the Conservative Party, and as I have said time and time again and as I have done this week, I will criticise the Conervatives as much as I would criticise Labour for not taking action on the European Union issue.


As above.

If that is the case, as the Conservatives and UKIP are both against the Lisbon Treaty - do you now accept the Lisbon Treaty is not wanted? (as the Conservatives and UKIP both won more seats in the European Parliamentary Elections than Labour and the Liberal Democrats).


No, I'm sorry, you're wrong. People who have qualifications in subjects that teach you how certain decisions are made (ie Economics), can understand why certain decisions are better than others yet can be unpopular.

Karl Marx could of had a degree in science, business and history for all I know - does it make him right? - no it does not. We could compare our grades to eachother all we wanted, it still doesn't make you right or prove to me anything.


Like I said, I think the Lisbon Treaty would win, if people are correctly informed and not misinformed by lies or great distortions, or if they would read the treaty. But this won't happen and someone who can't/won't take the time to really understand what they are voting on, or won't vote on the subject at hand (ie, not 'punishing' the government or getting confused at what they are voting for, my great aunt for example thought the Irish were voting on whether the EU should be disbanded or not), then the referendum is useless.

Hang on, sorry they would be informed. The Labour Party and Liberal Democrats would fight for a yes vote and the Conservatives and UKIP for a no vote. The Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and others would fight for a no vote, while the Guardian would fight for a yes vote.

You refuse a vote because you know it will lose, so stop blaming the media and accept people do not want it.


It's not only the 'left' that don't want a referendum, nor is the EU a 'leftist' organisation. There are plenty of conservatives that want to stay in the EU.

The European Union is to the left, Neil Kinnock and his wife, Tony Blair (to be soon), Peter Mandelson and so on have all been in the European Union and have made millions from it. The European Union is command economy, centralised - that is left wing and one of the basics of left wing politics.

It is right some people who call themselves Conservatives are for the European Union, however i'd argue how can you be a Conservative when you are supporting the creation of a unelected federal state with a left wing agenda on climate change and so on, while supporting a centralised-command economy. That is not Conservatism.

[alexxxxx]

The European Union is command economy.

Ok. You've lost it. You obviously don't know what a command economy is. I'm not going to argue against you about the EU anymore because you've made a completely fundamental mistake in describing the EU.

[LuketheDuke]

..that is why I said the Republic of China, Scotland and the European Union are the same, they are states in their own right. Therefore as the issue of the United Kingdom being merged into a federal European superstate is such a big issue, there should be a referendum on it.



That just deepens the case for a referendum, we did not vote for European Union we voted for the EEC therefore that referendum back in the 1970s' in annulled, it has no bearing anymore. The EEC was economic co-operation, the European Union is economic union, political union and social union which is totally different to what we voted for.



Then I would leave that aswell, and that should be put into a referendum. When I say 'leave the European Union' that means leave the European Union, as in they no longer have control over sovereign policy areas.



We should have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty because it is such a big issue, the European Union affects more than 75% of our laws and affects everything from business right down to what fruit/light bulbs we buy. I would like to see referendums on more issues, but as Europe is the biggest issue, if anything deserves a referendum it is this.



A lot of the Conservative elite are pro-EU that is right and the Conservatives constantly are split by the European Union issue. Margaret Thatcher has expressed regret of signing into the European Union as she only saw what was becoming of it as her term ended, the formation of a European superstate - hence why the European Union hated the Thatcher government as she forced them to give us a rebate.

There is not large support for the European Union, the tories risk large defection to UKIP at the next election, judging by comments on the Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph, BBC News and Sky News and I too would be voting for UKIP rather than the Conservatives because of Camerons' dithering.

Ken Clarke knows full well that is a referendum was held the Lisbon treaty would not pass, otherwise i'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with it. To be quite frank I couldn't care less what europhiles in the Conservative Party think, as long as the main party line is against the European Union. If the Conservatives truly represented the people then they would pledge to hold a referendum on both EU membership and the Lisbon Treaty, however there have been rumours that will be the case, with Davis, Pickles and Johnson hinting at that.

I am not the Conservative Party, and as I have said time and time again and as I have done this week, I will criticise the Conervatives as much as I would criticise Labour for not taking action on the European Union issue.



If that is the case, as the Conservatives and UKIP are both against the Lisbon Treaty - do you now accept the Lisbon Treaty is not wanted? (as the Conservatives and UKIP both won more seats in the European Parliamentary Elections than Labour and the Liberal Democrats).



Karl Marx could of had a degree in science, business and history for all I know - does it make him right? - no it does not. We could compare our grades to eachother all we wanted, it still doesn't make you right or prove to me anything.



Hang on, sorry they would be informed. The Labour Party and Liberal Democrats would fight for a yes vote and the Conservatives and UKIP for a no vote. The Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and others would fight for a no vote, while the Guardian would fight for a yes vote.

You refuse a vote because you know it will lose, so stop blaming the media and accept people do not want it.



The European Union is to the left, Neil Kinnock and his wife, Tony Blair (to be soon), Peter Mandelson and so on have all been in the European Union and have made millions from it. The European Union is command economy, centralised - that is left wing and one of the basics of left wing politics.

It is right some people who call themselves Conservatives are for the European Union, however i'd argue how can you be a Conservative when you are supporting the creation of a unelected federal state with a left wing agenda on climate change and so on, while supporting a centralised-command economy. That is not Conservatism.


Id seriously wish youd learn about politics instead of making up assumptions all the time. That and reading right wing papers do somewhat make your posts boggle the mind.

sovereignity exists in the UK and can never be undermined otherwise the British constitution is not being followed. MP's have the right to scrutinise EU draft legislation and then vote on it. Thats sovereignty, nothing can be shoved down our throats. Labour may be pro EU and vote through things accordingly but its above board and in strict juncture with the constitution.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Ok. You've lost it. You obviously don't know what a command economy is. I'm not going to argue against you about the EU anymore because you've made a completely fundamental mistake in describing the EU.

A command economy in something which is heavily regulated and is controlled by a small group of people at the top. That in the economy of the European Union, because if the European Union wasn't a command economy it wouldn't be involved in economics at all.

I think the issue you are keen to avoid really is 'You refuse a vote because you know it will lose, so stop blaming the media and accept people do not want it.' - I cannot wait until the day the British people get their deserved say on the European Union, we all know what the answer will be.


Id seriously wish youd learn about politics instead of making up assumptions all the time. That and reading right wing papers do somewhat make your posts boggle the mind.

sovereignity exists in the UK and can never be undermined otherwise the British constitution is not being followed. MP's have the right to scrutinise EU draft legislation and then vote on it. Thats sovereignty, nothing can be shoved down our throats. Labour may be pro EU and vote through things accordingly but its above board and in strict juncture with the constitution.

I seriously wish you would stop blaming the papers for my opinions, I have my own opinions and the papers do not influence that. I could read a pro-EU paper everyday and it wouldn't change my mind on the European Union. Get over the newspapers.

I am sorry but a country which has over 75% of its laws made by unelected foreigners is not sovereignty; if you think it is then you are deluded to say the very least.

[alexxxxx]

A command economy in something which is heavily regulated and is controlled by a small group of people at the top. That in the economy of the European Union, because if the European Union wasn't a command economy it wouldn't be involved in economics at all.


That is NOT the definition of a command economy.

[-:Undertaker:-]

That is NOT the definition of a command economy.

That is the definition of command economy, call it whatever you wish controlled economy, command economy, restricted economy - the European Union is not free market.

[alexxxxx]

That is the definition of command economy, call it whatever you wish controlled economy, command economy, restricted economy - the European Union is not free market.



An economic system where the allocation of resources, including determination of what goods and services should be produced, and in what quantity, is planned by the government.


That is a command economy.

[-:Undertaker:-]

That is a command economy.

The light bulb ban, fruit size regulations and goodness knows how many other regulations is command economy, along with allocating how many farmers can and cannot grow crops.

Command economy.