UAF V BNP at the BBC Television Centre ahead of Question Time

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/22/article-1222159-06ED155E000005DC-551_634x286.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/22/article-1222159-06ECDB2B000005DC-231_634x314.jpg



Anti-fascist campaigners are staging a mass protest at BBC Television Centre as British National Party leader Nick Griffin takes part in Question Time.
There are several hundred protesters outside the building, although it is calmer than earlier when about 25 broke through police lines into the BBC.
Inside, Mr Griffin was booed as recording of the flagship political discussion programme got under way. The BBC has defended the programme saying it has a duty to be impartial.

The Metropolitan Police say three protesters have been arrested and three police officers injured in the protests. Television Centre has been "locked down" with staff prevented from leaving to go home and a police helicopter continues to hover overhead. Mr Griffin accused the protesters of "attacking the rights of millions of people to listen to what I've got to say and listen to me being called to account by other politicians", adding: "It really is a disgraceful thing."

But Weyman Bennett from Unite Against Fascism accused the BBC of "rolling out the red carpet" to Mr Griffin and said his appearance on the flagship discussion programme "will lead to the growth of a fascist party" and promote violence against ethnic minorities.

While everyone has the right to protest peacefully, as we can see here the UAF are not protesting peacefully and when the word 'protesters' is used it doesn't delve into who these people are, as you can see from the flags around the BBC studio they include islamic flags, red flags (indicating socialist/communist involvement) and signs which read 'smash the BNP' (violence).

Griffin should be allowed on as we live in a democracy and his party is elected, whether we agree with them or not. In my view, its not the BNP which is the undemocratic party, its the UAF who are against democracy.

Thoughts, and will you be watching Question Time tonight?

..it starts at 10:30pm on BBC One

[Niall!]

I love the BNP and all they stand for. Those protesters should go blow up some buildings or something.

[AlexOC]

Just watched it on Catch-Up-TV.

That backfired for the BNP.

[PaulMacC]

Just watched it on Catch-Up-TV.

That backfired for the BNP.
You may think that but in reality it was a huge success, they got some of their policies and manifesto and earned some voters as a result of this. Not to mention they could sue BBC for discriminating against them as Question Time was mainly targeting them.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I think Griffin emerged best from the panel, Labour refused to tackle immigration and illegal immigration, the Conservatives stated they would tackle it but a angry audience member shouted 'then just DO it', the woman from the British Museum kept interrupting Griffin - from what I have seen on the Daily Mail, BBC and the Sun websites', even those who do not support the BNP can see how the panel was biased as the program was changed from being about the BNP/Post Strikes and other issues to being solely about the BNP itself.

I do not see muslim extremists/left wing Labour MP extremists being questioned like Griffin was last night, that was certainly not a fair show.

..it does seem though that now UKIP are stronger, Europe is being forced into the spotlight of the Lib/Lab/Con and now the BNP are stronger, immigration is being forced into the spotlight aswell - all of which is good for politics and democracy.

[HOSKO02]

I watched the show, very interesting.

I was surprised to hear some BNP supporters in the back rows, notable how the camera never turned to focus on them. Nick Griffin came across to me as a babling hypocrite, however, He made some good points when He could catch the other speakers off guard, and the Tories let it in by trying to dodge the immigration policies.

I'm from Lancashire, from which Burnley was mentioned as a constituency of one of the panelists, who explained how He had 'turned' them over and away from BNP support.

However, the population of 'ethnic minorities' in Lancashire is very high, and race riots are common especially in the East of the county. There are a number of public houses in proximity to me there which are frequented by BNP supporters and angry patriots. Coming from a low income area of majorly 'working-class' - it's easy to see how Griffins policies look appealing to them, change is happening too quick in some areas where ethnic minorities have populated in certain areas, and it's understandable that that, alongside recent policies relating to beureocracy and political correctness, leads the white working class to fear/misunderstanding/anger.

I was invited to attent that protest outside the BBC last night with my Socialist Society from my University, and though I support the ideals of Marx and Socialism as a whole, I agree that the BNP as a political party has every right to be given stage on Question Time, what worries me as stated above, is the ignorance of the working classes who need a scapegoat, hence why the BNP has seen unprecedented popularity in the forerun to the next election.

[RandomManJay]

Although I don't agree with literally all of the policies presented by the BNP, I do agree that Nick Griffin did have the right to be on the show and present his and the BNP's views. And although it was oriented around the BNP rather than the actual topics, there were times when they tried to get back on track, but in the end it just wasn't possible. Watched it a couple of hours ago on iPlayer, they should have made the show longer ;).

[Black_Apalachi]

I watched it but I really don't know what to believe. For example, he was talking about how the English, Scottish and Welsh have always been the people of Britain and so this should be preserved and he said the fact that they are white is irrelevant but everyone else says he's racist because he only wants white people in the UK.

It's really hard to ignore other people's opinions of him and his party and try to find out exactly what he's about for myself.

[alexxxxx]

i personally thought the show was dreadful and focused more on what n griffin did or did not say. Even though i hate him and everything he stands for and I don't respect him or anything i thought that they didn't give him enough time to really say much at all even though j straw had loads of time to say monologues. I was quite dissapointed that i couldn't hear some of his other policies and whatever and see a decent debate. I think his credibility was eroded (probably rightly so) and that it was just grilling him. They dodged the issue about are the mainstream parties dealing with sensitive issues which was disappointing.

[-:Undertaker:-]

A poll on BBC has said that 22% of people asked in a poll would 'seriously consider' voting BNP. Of course this is only a spur of the moment poll, but as shown by UKIP success at two European Parliamentary Elections it isn't impossible to make a big hit. Another poll which was in the Mail showed that when the BNP name wasn't mentioned and their policies were described to people, over 50% of people agreed with them fully - but when the BNP was mentioned as being the party behind this, support dropped to 20% to 30%.

I do think it has done the BNP good last night and did show how everything is tipped against them, however as I have said before; it does seem that with the growth of UKIP and the BNP, both immigration and the European Union are to become top issues in the near future.

On the BBC the theme seems to be the same, and the same on the Sun website and the Mail website, here are some from the BBC website.


im a labour supporter, when i came home from work this morning i watched question time on iplayer and, i couldnt believe what i was seeing, the whole program was just like a kangaroo court it reminded me of my days in the military when, we used to have kangaroo courts,i think people forget that people in this country voted the BNP in,people need to be looking at this government to blame,the whole thing was like a scene from a school playground,the other party members were so unproffessional
..more can be seen here, more or less the same. (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=7149&edition=1&ttl=20091024000731)

[Black_Apalachi]

Yeah I thought it went on too much about stuff he may or may not have said in the past as well.

I'll need to find out about your UKIP business Dan, before this election because if I'm honest I haven't got a clue what it is :P.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yeah I thought it went on too much about stuff he may or may not have said in the past as well.

I'll need to find out about your UKIP business Dan, before this election because if I'm honest I haven't got a clue what it is :P.

The website is pretty good for UKIP, although hopefully they get a new one soon as its looking a bit tired. UKIP are basically conservatives who are genuinely conservative, I am strongly conservative and would rather a conservative government anyday, but I think the conservative party these days is far to similar to Labour and is dithering over the European issue and others. They also came second on the PR vote that was the European Parliamentary Elections meaning they did in reality have more support on their issues than Labour did, although thanks to our voting system it is pretty hard for them to gain seats in Westminister.

The videos UKIP have on Youtube are good aswell, they do make a mockery of the European Union and Farage is one of the best politicians in the country in my opinion. If you believe in small government, independant United Kingdom and a country which has real morals and no political correctness then UKIP is an ideal party. http://www.ukip.org/

[PaulMacC]

BBC are in the wrong.
I find it absolutely disgusting on how biased can a so called political television show to not even be able to let us make are own minds up. They have to go to the the extent of belittling a man undignified infront of millions of people.
It was free advertisement for the BNP - Everybody in the studio was against Griffin. He couldn't have asked for better audience. He is in a victim situation. Hitler was democratically elected, just like this.

[ifuseekamy]

It was stupid, it's meant to be a debate not an inquisition.

[HOSKO02]

It was stupid, it's meant to be a debate not an inquisition.

'Well I wasn't expecting a sort of... Spanish Inquisition'
*BANG*
'Noooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!'

[Pyroka]

Hur hur oh dear. I never watched the debate but from what I've heard, the BBC absolutely merked Griffin. Funny that, the whole "we're impartial and give everyone a platform to debate" LOLZ. I can see why people are pissed off he got on the show, because they blatently know its giving him popularity, he's getting talked about and people who at first didnt agree with his policy, are now seeing the light of it all.

The way the media portrays him is that he will boot out all the black people in the country and beat them all up. He'll boot some out, but is that racist? White people get booted out of the country, just when a black person gets booted out OMG DRAMA RACIST SCUMMMMMM ;'OOOOOOO. I think the whole equality and human rights thing has really been taken out of hand by the world. Health and safety people hide behind red tape and make sure nobody does anything silly (or clever >.>).

I don't agree with the BNP completely, I don't think they have what it takes to run a country tbh. But at the same time, they have ideas which would benefit the country. Why can't we boot out scum who stab people on the streets? Why give them community service or 2-3 years in jail (followed by a reduction to 6 months :rolleyes:)?

Meh I'm gonna sound pro-BNP, but I'm not lol. Labour and Conversatives would go a far way if they adopted a few of BNP's policies when one of them comes to power. yeah I dont think BNP will win :P but yeah they need to stop being asshats.

[ifuseekamy]

Why can't we boot out scum who stab people on the streets?
Because other countries are unlikely to accept a murderer into their borders. Something might sound great in theory but be dreadful in practise (communism), aside from their beliefs the BNP have disastrous economic and social policies.

[Frodo13.]

I love the fact that despite everything that Undertaker said previous to this TV show, about how Griffen was going to expose Labour etc, has compleatly backfired on ALL possible levels. Griffen was showcased for the vile, racist pig that he is. He was physically shaken, and obviously out of his depth. Well done to all other members of that panel.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I love the fact that despite everything that Undertaker said previous to this TV show, about how Griffen was going to expose Labour etc, has compleatly backfired on ALL possible levels. Griffen was showcased for the vile, racist pig that he is. He was physically shaken, and obviously out of his depth. Well done to all other members of that panel.

..actually if you'd of watched you will of noticed how Griffin was stopped from answering his questions, Jack Straw (the man who fiddles his expenses) got told - and now, as opinion polls are showing, the BNP are actually looking better off now than before that show. - so no it didn't backfire on the BNP, it backfired on the establishment despite all their attempts to stop them, and their other attempts to make it a witch hunt on national television. Infact as you can see on this very forum, people are now openly questioning the immigration policy and are questioning whether or not everything we've been told about immigration over the past decade was infact true.

[Frodo13.]

..actually if you'd of watched you will of noticed how Griffin was stopped from answering his questions, Jack Straw (the man who fiddles his expenses) got told - and now, as opinion polls are showing, the BNP are actually looking better off now than before that show. - so no it didn't backfire on the BNP, it backfired on the establishment despite all their attempts to stop them, and their other attempts to make it a witch hunt on national television. Infact as you can see on this very forum, people are now openly questioning the immigration policy and are questioning whether or not everything we've been told about immigration over the past decade was infact true.

It's official, your actually stupid. The whole public is in backlash over this. Turn on your TV, open a newspaper for lords sake! You say people are questioning imigration on this forum - yes they are, but judging by the general age concensus on this forum, these are people who arn't even in a position to vote (unlike myself) And correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just the view that has come over from other posts I've read, but are you gay? (Seriously sorry if your not, and no offence caused), because if you are, Nick Griffen and the BNP thinks your a freak of nature who wants to evoke all your gay rights.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It's official, your actually stupid. The whole public is in backlash over this. Turn on your TV, open a newspaper for lords sake! You say people are questioning imigration on this forum - yes they are, but judging by the general age concensus on this forum, these are people who arn't even in a position to vote (unlike myself) And correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just the view that has come over from other posts I've read, but are you gay? (Seriously sorry if your not, and no offence caused), because if you are, Nick Griffen and the BNP thinks your a freak of nature who wants to evoke all your gay rights.

The interviews on the news have clearly shown that even people who do not agree with the British National Party did njot agree with the way the BBC and the other parties dealed with this. On the issue of gay rights, gay rights should not come above the rights of the majority or the opinion of the majority, I disagree with gay marriage aswell. Nick Griffin merely stated the truth on Question Time last night, that the majority of people think two guys kissing is pretty creepy, and its true a lot of people do think that. I'm not going to label him homophobic just because hes stating a true fact.

Infact your post just shows how everything concerning the BNP is over-amplified and you are putting words in his mouth right there.

[Frodo13.]

The interviews on the news have clearly shown that even people who do not agree with the British National Party did njot agree with the way the BBC and the other parties dealed with this. On the issue of gay rights, gay rights should not come above the rights of the majority or the opinion of the majority, I disagree with gay marriage aswell. Nick Griffin merely stated the truth on Question Time last night, that the majority of people think two guys kissing is pretty creepy, and its true a lot of people do think that. I'm not going to label him homophobic just because hes stating a true fact.

Infact your post just shows how everything concerning the BNP is over-amplified and you are putting words in his mouth right there.

And the reason why many people who find that creepy, is because they were brought up to believe it's creapy, and that is an upbringing that Nick Giffin would continue. As you yourself are aware of, homosexuality is becoming more exceptable, especially amongst the youth of today, and that is because they are educated about it. The fact you say that gay rights should not come above the rights of the majority, and that you also find it creepy, in my opinion makes you a disgrace to the gay community you belong to. And to add, it's not about gay rights being above the rights of the majority, it's about gays having the EQUAL rights of the majority, which includes same sex marriage, gay adoption etc. Why should, what in my opinion is a thing you are born with make you have less rights?

[-:Undertaker:-]

And the reason why many people who find that creepy, is because they were brought up to believe it's creapy, and that is an upbringing that Nick Giffin would continue. As you yourself are aware of, homosexuality is becoming more exceptable, especially amongst the youth of today, and that is because they are educated about it. The fact you say that gay rights should not come above the rights of the majority, and that you also find it creepy, in my opinion makes you a disgrace to the gay community you belong to. And to add, it's not about gay rights being above the rights of the majority, it's about gays having the EQUAL rights of the majority, which includes same sex marriage, gay adoption etc. Why should, what in my opinion is a thing you are born with make you have less rights?

I'm afraid that no Labour government advertisement on television will change peoples' minds, no matter how much Labour likes to think. Infact all these equality laws, equality advertisements, parades turn people against homosexuals and minorities. On the point of gay rights, I put the majorty first i'm afraid, I don't belong to any community, i'm me and I can think for myself. I don't support groups such as Stonewall interfering with government policy because the government was elected to do the job, not Stonewall or the Muslim Council of Great Britain.

On the last point, because I believe that marriage should be and always has been between a man and a woman, its like saying I should have the right to be well built - but i'm not, so I get over it. The point of adoption, i'm against this until attitudes change as the childs future could be harmed by bullying in schools and so on.

..because I put children and the majority before myself, and I believe that is always the right thing to do for the welfare of the nation and especially its children.

[Niall!]

It's official, your actually stupid. The whole public is in backlash over this. Turn on your TV, open a newspaper for lords sake! You say people are questioning imigration on this forum - yes they are, but judging by the general age concensus on this forum, these are people who arn't even in a position to vote (unlike myself) And correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just the view that has come over from other posts I've read, but are you gay? (Seriously sorry if your not, and no offence caused), because if you are, Nick Griffen and the BNP thinks your a freak of nature who wants to evoke all your gay rights.

lol@everyone thinking dans gay.

Anyway, I am of voting age and I must say, if BNP was elected, the country would be a much better place. You must have read the multiple stories before of hindus or whatever. Some of them started complaining about Christmas lights on their street for example and, in doing so, got them banned? This is the only one that comes to mine at the moment, but there are many, many more just like this.

Political correctness is what's killing this country, and someone needs to stop it.

[RandomManJay]

lol@everyone thinking dans gay.

Anyway, I am of voting age and I must say, if BNP was elected, the country would be a much better place. You must have read the multiple stories before of hindus or whatever. Some of them started complaining about Christmas lights on their street for example and, in doing so, got them banned? This is the only one that comes to mine at the moment, but there are many, many more just like this.

Political correctness is what's killing this country, and someone needs to stop it.

I do agree with you that political correctness is damaging this country (personally I wouldn't say killing), but if the BNP were to get elected, I feel they would take it from one extreme to another, and considering the actual support for the BNP is a low ratio to the population, a lot of people wouldn't like where the country would be heading. I know that if they were elected, I would rather migrate then live in a country which is against allowing diversity of faith, colour, sexuality and whatnot. It's like when Griffin said that when Islamic followers come to this country, there are to be made aware that this country should remain a christian country, but what about those who have chosen different beliefs, and what about those who originate from the country who have chosen the Islamic faith, should they be told that they shouldn't believe in it because it isn't British. It's going against the most fundamental of human rights, and in the eyes of the any community with different beliefs, forcing them to agree that christianity is dominant in this country is like saying their god or beliefs are not are important and not as powerful as christianity.

[Niall!]

I do agree with you that political correctness is damaging this country (personally I wouldn't say killing), but if the BNP were to get elected, I feel they would take it from one extreme to another, and considering the actual support for the BNP is a low ratio to the population, a lot of people wouldn't like where the country would be heading. I know that if they were elected, I would rather migrate then live in a country which is against allowing diversity of faith, colour, sexuality and whatnot. It's like when Griffin said that when Islamic followers come to this country, there are to be made aware that this country should remain a christian country, but what about those who have chosen different beliefs, and what about those who originate from the country who have chosen the Islamic faith, should they be told that they shouldn't believe in it because it isn't British. It's going against the most fundamental of human rights, and in the eyes of the any community with different beliefs, forcing them to agree that christianity is dominant in this country is like saying their god or beliefs are not are important and not as powerful as christianity.

I'll take this quote from the BNP website:


Can anyone imagine Saudi Arabia allowing the mass immigration of Christians, so that in a few decades it would no longer be an Islamic country?

That sums up my arguments. They would do the exact same thing to us if the situations were reversed.

[Black_Apalachi]

I'll take this quote from the BNP website:


Can anyone imagine Saudi Arabia allowing the mass immigration of Christians, so that in a few decades it would no longer be an Islamic country?

That sums up my arguments. They would do the exact same thing to us if the situations were reversed.

See, that's something I understand and would agree with about the BNP. I'm starting to think people are just resorting to calling everything they do or say racist regardless, just to try and snub them out.

[RandomManJay]

True, but compare our society to theirs, they have not reached, or will never want to reach the same level of equal rights for humanity as we have. The BNP want the UK to return to a state which it had centuries ago, but the thing is our society cannot exist in such a way anymore, it would mean restricting human rights to the point that there would be a clear definition between humanity dependent on factors which cannot be controlled; gender, race, sexuality and to some degree religious beliefs and anyone who does not agree to fall in line with this definition will be removed.

Now I'm all for reducing the level of immagration in this country, but only from a population stant point, this country is getting too crowded, but I do not want the immagration to reduce because I feel my idendity as a british citizen is being damaged. I do class myself as a british citizen, but I don't feel like I'm being squashed out because I don't class myself as being only that, you're lineage still exists, your former country and history still exists, just because this counrty has accepted other beliefs into their mainstream doesn't mean were being over run or classed out, were being more defined as a culture who accepts other cultures, people who are born in this country shouldn't be trying to maintain their status, their status is already written in stone, if you migrate, you are classed as both a british citizen and a citizen of whatever country you migrate to, you do not lose your identity, you gain another.

All the BNP wants is for all the people who they define as not belonging to this country to not be here, if they are ever elected, they will define this, they will have the right to kick who ever they want out, for whatever reason, and once that happens, they think that this country will turn into a utopian society, and the thing is it probably will, but what kind of society will it be that if you go against anything you will be removed, the UK will be isolated, no other country would want to be involved with a country which is so xenophobic and paranoid that any values which do not agree with their values are not allowed through fear that they would be taken over.

(p.s. some of this probably wont make any sense, I'm trying to get ready for work while debating, not easy when you're rushing :).)

[ifuseekamy]

See, that's something I understand and would agree with about the BNP.
What? That we should do what the oh so advanced Saudi Arabia does?

[Black_Apalachi]

No, just the point about how virtually every other country in the world upholds their own nation's religions and doesn't allow them to be diluted by the rest of the world.

[ifuseekamy]

To advance a country needs to be secular. If people want to practise personal beliefs why not? That's what democracy is about. It's not their fault the government are a bunch of spineless morons who enforce this political correctness.

[-:Undertaker:-]

See, that's something I understand and would agree with about the BNP. I'm starting to think people are just resorting to calling everything they do or say racist regardless, just to try and snub them out.

I hope politics starts changing now, because as shown on this forum, the Daily Mail, BBC, the Sun - people are turning against the main parties which is good news. I'd rather people go to UKIP as I find them far better than the BNP, but a vote for the BNP is far beter than a vote for Labour in my books.


To advance a country needs to be secular. If people want to practise personal beliefs why not? That's what democracy is about. It's not their fault the government are a bunch of spineless morons who enforce this political correctness.

Nobody is disagreeing with the fact that we need to be democratic, people just do not agree with the way is has gone about. It has njow come out that multi-culturalism was an experiment by New Labour - they engineered mass immigration, and as shown we do not know how many people are in this country now.

Yes to immigration, but sensible please.

[Ardemax]

I agreed with 1 thing they said. That Britain should be seen typically as a Christian nation.

However I think they should be banned as a party and thus stopping them from being on Question time.

I did watch it, yes, very interesting and I like how everyone turned on them.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I agreed with 1 thing they said. That Britain should be seen typically as a Christian nation.

However I think they should be banned as a party and thus stopping them from being on Question time.

I did watch it, yes, very interesting and I like how everyone turned on them.

..so you support a fascist element; banning opposition? - you can't want to ban something and claim it is similar to Adolf Hitler when you support doing the exact thing that Adolf Hitler imposed upon Europe, supression of opposition. If you support banning the British National Party, do you also support banning the Labour Party as it has come out this week (view my latest thread in this forum) that they engineered immigration based on race, to make the Conservatives and the right look bad.

[Ardemax]

..so you support a fascist element; banning opposition? - you can't want to ban something and claim it is similar to Adolf Hitler when you support doing the exact thing that Adolf Hitler imposed upon Europe, supression of opposition. If you support banning the British National Party, do you also support banning the Labour Party as it has come out this week (view my latest thread in this forum) that they engineered immigration based on race, to make the Conservatives and the right look bad.

BNP: facist, racist, cruel, denied the holocaust, a lot of members are in jail for things such as GBH and they don't think particular religions should exist and stuff

that's not really facist to ban them?

[-:Undertaker:-]

BNP: facist, racist, cruel, denied the holocaust, a lot of members are in jail for things such as GBH and they don't think particular religions should exist and stuff

that's not really facist to ban them?

It is fascist to ban them, if something opposes you're opinion and you ban it, you are doing what Adolf Hitler did to all the political parties around Europe. On the BNPs' points of view, while I believe in the holocaust - they have a right to not believe the holocaust, just like thousands if not millions of others around the world believe that 9/11 was a government conspiracy. As far as I know, we fought Hitler to protect freedom of speech and thought, or am I totally wrong?

I have made the example of how Labour implemented a racial immigration policy over the past decade to make the right look racist, so I will ask again; should the Labour Party also be banned for racism? (because the BNP are only campaigning for racial immigration policy, whereas Labour have actually acted on it)

[Ardemax]

It is fascist to ban them, if something opposes you're opinion and you ban it, you are doing what Adolf Hitler did to all the political parties around Europe. On the BNPs' points of view, while I believe in the holocaust - they have a right to not believe the holocaust, just like thousands if not millions of others around the world believe that 9/11 was a government conspiracy. As far as I know, we fought Hitler to protect freedom of speech and thought, or am I totally wrong?

I have made the example of how Labour implemented a racial immigration policy over the past decade to make the right look racist, so I will ask again; should the Labour Party also be banned for racism? (because the BNP are only campaigning for racial immigration policy, whereas Labour have actually acted on it)


That is funny.
You think Labour are racist, well that's deffo a new one.

They don't have the right not to believe the holocaust, or they do, but it's against the law (well in germany + france).

We fought Hitler indeed, but to let another facist party in politics is beyond me.

[-:Undertaker:-]

That is funny.
You think Labour are racist, well that's deffo a new one.

They don't have the right not to believe the holocaust, or they do, but it's against the law (well in germany + france).

We fought Hitler indeed, but to let another facist party in politics is beyond me.

..hang on, but you say the British National Party are racist for having a racial immigration policy?, but so do Labour - you can't have it both ways.

We are not Germany or France, so he is perfectly entitled to hold that view even though he does state that he believes the holocaust did occur from what I have heard.

This is where we disagree again, the BNP are a small party with no power - yet the Labour party have signed away over 75% of our sovereignty to an unelected foreign body, have installed more CCTV than that of communist China and have lied over and over again even over issues such as the invasion of Iraq and finally have been involved in numerous fraud scandals - who are the real fascists?

[Ardemax]

..hang on, but you say the British National Party are racist for having a racial immigration policy?, but so do Labour - you can't have it both ways.

We are not Germany or France, so he is perfectly entitled to hold that view even though he does state that he believes the holocaust did occur from what I have heard.

This is where we disagree again, the BNP are a small party with no power - yet the Labour party have signed away over 75% of our sovereignty to an unelected foreign body, have installed more CCTV than that of communist China and have lied over and over again even over issues such as the invasion of Iraq and finally have been involved in numerous fraud scandals - who are the real fascists?

so labour are facist and racist?

are you sure you don't have a BNP membership card or something..

[-:Undertaker:-]

so labour are facist and racist?

are you sure you don't have a BNP membership card or something..

Yes they are, if you have a immigration policy based on race as you call the BNP racist for having a immigration policy based on race, then Labour is also racist as it too had a immigration policy based on race.

You know fully well I support UKIP, don't try and tar me with the BNP brush as others have tried. Although I will admit, who would I vote for as my third choice in an election? - BNP. Instead of asking me whether i'm a member or if I support the BNP, why dont you actually look at why Labour are just as bad, of course you won't admit it because its Labour.

[Black_Apalachi]

As well as what Dan is saying;


That is funny.
You think Labour are racist, well that's deffo a new one.

They don't have the right not to believe the holocaust, or they do, but it's against the law (well in germany + france).

We fought Hitler indeed, but to let another facist party in politics is beyond me.

I'm pretty sure if something is illegal, your right to do/say it are taken away, by definition.

[Ardemax]

As well as what Dan is saying;



I'm pretty sure if something is illegal, your right to do/say it are taken away, by definition.


yes that's correct?

[BlueTango]

It's not against the law to believe that the holocaust didn't happen - it's not against the law to believe anything

[Ardemax]

It's not against the law to believe that the holocaust didn't happen - it's not against the law to believe anything


it is in france and germany?

[Black_Apalachi]

yes that's correct?

Well you contradicted yourself lol

[Ardemax]

Well you contradicted yourself lol

how lol

[Fez]

While I believe in free speech and all the democracy malarkey, what happened on Question Time was not Question Time. It was a straight all out attack on the BNP and at the end of it, I felt sorry for them. Griffin's points about the middle-east are some of the best I've heard in a long time.

Also, I laugh at you guys arguing over whether denying the holocaust is a crime or not. In the end, it's offensive. Personally, I've seen enough evidence to know it took place and I just don't think it's an opinion to deny such an event.

I like Undertaker's comparison to 9/11, and all the conspiracy theories, but we have to be aware that 2000 people died in the 9/11 attacks and over 15 million died in the holocaust. Let's also be frank here, if you say that the 9/11 attacks were a government plot, to an American, they would probably respect your opinion. They might disagree with it, but you'll still agree yourself that the loss of life is something to remember. But if you deny the holocaust then you are really attacking the victims of that event and in my books, that's a crime.

[Wig44.]

Argumentum ad hominem..
This was an ad hominem arguement, quite a lot of Griffin's ideas were completely acceptable in my eyes, possibly better policies than the ones we have in place. People argued against him because it was HIM, not because of his ideas. Granted some of the things he said were totally unacceptable but not all of them. He needs to tone down his ideas on immigrants and LGBTs but other than that I like the ideas. For instance: Turn away asylum-seekers who cross other safe countries to reach the UK - that is something that needs to be happening and isn't happening now. He is someone who needs to adapt and change his views on non-white/foreign citizens in the UK and not generalize in the need to have most of them deported, same with LGBTs, he needs to be more accepting of them. However the BNP otherwise have some excellent policies and if they changed what I said above I would vote for them. Griffin and the BNP have been demonized by politicians and the media in my eyes and that is oppression in the highest form. The Conservatives would tear down the NHS. Don't tell me you wouldn't be affected very negatively by that, so why haven't they been demonized.

[Ardemax]

yeah i hear what you're saying, and wig i guess it's his reputation that does it for him

[Wig44.]

yeah i hear what you're saying, and wig i guess it's his reputation that does it for him

He earned that reputation but still.. when politicians drag the public into an ad hominem argument against someone who has won seats because they want to oppress the person you have to wonder..

[-:Undertaker:-]

While I believe in free speech and all the democracy malarkey, what happened on Question Time was not Question Time. It was a straight all out attack on the BNP and at the end of it, I felt sorry for them. Griffin's points about the middle-east are some of the best I've heard in a long time.

Also, I laugh at you guys arguing over whether denying the holocaust is a crime or not. In the end, it's offensive. Personally, I've seen enough evidence to know it took place and I just don't think it's an opinion to deny such an event.

I like Undertaker's comparison to 9/11, and all the conspiracy theories, but we have to be aware that 2000 people died in the 9/11 attacks and over 15 million died in the holocaust. Let's also be frank here, if you say that the 9/11 attacks were a government plot, to an American, they would probably respect your opinion. They might disagree with it, but you'll still agree yourself that the loss of life is something to remember. But if you deny the holocaust then you are really attacking the victims of that event and in my books, that's a crime.

Freedom of speech should never be a crime.

[Black_Apalachi]

Is it so hard to understand that if you want to practice freedom of speech, you have to accept what people say even if you don't like it? You can't have your cake and eat it.

[Ardemax]

Is it so hard to understand that if you want to practice freedom of speech, you have to accept what people say even if you don't like it? You can't have your cake and eat it.

BUT IF YOU SAY IT IN FRANCE OR GERMANY IT'S AGAINST THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Black_Apalachi]

BUT IF YOU SAY IT IN FRANCE OR GERMANY IT'S AGAINST THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, I thought we were talking about the British National Party appearing on the British TV show Question Time. Sorry!

[Ardemax]

yeah, we sorta crept to nick griffin and his holocaust denial for a while

[Dan2nd]

BUT IF YOU SAY IT IN FRANCE OR GERMANY IT'S AGAINST THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes but we're not in France of Germany we're in the UK so I don't understand why you keep saying that?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yes but we're not in France of Germany we're in the UK so I don't understand why you keep saying that?

..not that theres much difference between them all anymore, afterall 84% of the laws made here every year are carbon-copies of the ones that are formulated in France, Germany and across the European Union.

..and people call Nick Griffin the undemocratic fascist, amazing really.

[Ardemax]

Yes but we're not in France of Germany we're in the UK so I don't understand why you keep saying that?


becos people were like "no it isn't against the law" and then id reply with that and then they'd deny it etc. etc.

[Bun]

Oh, I thought we were talking about the British National Party appearing on the British TV show Question Time. Sorry!
yeh our good friend ardemax was just making the point that as France and Germany have such laws the EU will surely follow, init Undertaker? :)

Freedom of speech should never be a crime.
what about racism? nobody can stop you thinking it, but once you preach it, it's a crime.

[-:Undertaker:-]

yeh our good friend ardemax was just making the point that as France and Germany have such laws the EU will surely follow, init Undertaker? :)

what about racism? nobody can stop you thinking it, but once you preach it, it's a crime.

The discussion is about the holocaust, not racism.

[Ardemax]

*is confused by cod's serious/sarcasm and so cannot reply*

i thought my points were about the holocaust and stuff