Cameron announces 'sovereignty act'

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46663000/jpg/_46663913_008182694-1.jpg


David Cameron has said "never again" to powers being transferred from the UK to Brussels without a referendum.

He said all future treaties would be put to a public vote as he outlined his new European policy after ruling out a referendum on the Lisbon treaty.
He also promised a sovereignty bill if the Tories win the next election to ensure the supremacy of UK laws. And he vowed to demand powers back on employment law, the charter of fundamental rights and criminal law. Mr Cameron has been forced to unveil a new set of policies on Europe after being forced to abandon a pledge for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, which is now to come into force on 1 December. He has been accused of backtracking on a "cast iron" pledged to hold a referendum, but he said: "I did not promise a referendum come what may, because once the Lisbon Treaty becomes law there is nothing people can do about it." And he said he did not want to "treat people like fools" by pretending that was not the case.

Mr Cameron promised referendums on any future moves to "transfer further powers from Britain to the European Union" if the Tories win power at the next election. But he ruled out what he called a "phoney" referendum on the UK's EU negotiating aims as some in his party have been demanding.
But the Tory leader is still under pressure from Eurosceptics in his own party to offer the public a say on Europe.

A load of absolute rubbish, Dave you CAN repeal these laws because laws are only pieces of paper, their will NEVER be another treaty on the European Union because the Lisbon Treaty is self-amending, meaning the European Union can now create/extend power to whereever it wishes now - the EU will never ever need another treaty. On the supremacy law, EU rule already takes place over British law, the same with the European Courts taking place over British courts, so again he told yet another lie. On the point of the rebate, he refused to promise that when the EU discusses its next budget our rebate would not be futher reduced in size.

His 'cast-iron' promise seems to of melted away pretty quickly.

[alexxxxx]

Cameron is a bit vague in what he says and is quite clearly misleading voters.

[FlyingJesus]

What you've already said is exactly what I thought when I saw the headline. Europe don't have to give us votes any more, so he can't possibly promise referendums

[Hecktix]

Oh, what did people say all along? The Tories wouldn't always go along with the referendum idea, clever way of masking it up though Dave.

No, I do not trust David Cameron, i'd much prefer to see the Chuckle Brothers running the country than him. So I guess my vote stays with Gordon. :eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

At the end of the day we won't be coming out of the EU for quite a while now, so what referendums can be promise :S

[Immenseman]

it'll be a sad day when he's prime minister.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Oh, what did people say all along? The Tories wouldn't always go along with the referendum idea, clever way of masking it up though Dave.

No, I do not trust David Cameron, i'd much prefer to see the Chuckle Brothers running the country than him. So I guess my vote stays with Gordon. :eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

At the end of the day we won't be coming out of the EU for quite a while now, so what referendums can be promise :S

He could of promised, and did promise a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty which will be the last treaty that the European Union will ever have to pass. Gordon Brown and Tony Blair also promised us a referendum on EU reform in their 2005 General Election manifesto and also backtracked on it, showing that Dave is another Teflon Tony.

If he cares so much about the British people and their views on the European Union, why will he not give us a vote on EU membership then - because he knows what the outcome would be. He says the Lisbon Treaty is now law and cannot be repealed, but it can just like all laws - so its simple, hold the promised referendum on Lisbon and if the British public vote no to the treaty then you scrap the laws that the treaty brings in and do not allow futher transition of power from Westminister to Brussels.

[GommeInc]

Am I the only one happy to weather the storm to see if a EU war happens between the EU and different member states? It'll be like going to war with Germany again, except less hail Hitlers and the Germans going crazy because they hate the meer mention of war.

[Hecktix]

it'll be a sad day when he's prime minister.

I'm not entirely convinced it's going to happen tbh.

I think people know he'd be lousy.

Maybe that's just me as a Labour supporter thinking hopefully.. but I think this is a big dent into Cameron's reputation, at the end of the day he has done the same thing Blair & Brown have done, promised a referendum and then stood down.

I have no doubt that the Conservative Party do want this country to be part of the EU, they probably have different intentions for us being in the EU than Labour though :P

I myself am a supporter of the EU, I see no problem with us becoming part of the European Union, it's good for the economy, it's good for all social classes as well - which is something that doesn't come around very often.

Of course I still believe we should keep our National Identity, which includes the pound sterling which I think we will do.

Back on topic, I think this is a sign that if the Conservative Party were to be in power they wouldn't do much different to Labour. The reason I am a Labour Party supporter is because I believe in their left-wing principals :)

[-:Undertaker:-]

I myself am a supporter of the EU, I see no problem with us becoming part of the European Union, it's good for the economy, it's good for all social classes as well - which is something that doesn't come around very often.

Of course I still believe we should keep our National Identity, which includes the pound sterling which I think we will do.

The European Union is not good for the economy, thats common propaganda thats used to fool the people into believing that if we were to leave the EU then the economy would collapse, is simply just not true at all and holds no water. On economy, centralised economy has never worked and never will, and secondly giving billions upon billions every year (while in a mound of debt) to an organisation which does not even give it back is not good economics. The rest of the world and other European countrys are not in the European Union yet their economies are immensely strong and fast growing. We are part of the European Union, and so are the Republic of Ireland - where was the EU when borrowing was reaching stupid amounts between the banks and nearly caused another depression?

On the point of social classes, its not good for every family across the United Kingdom or Europe who have to pay higher taxes which run into the hundreds of pounds to keep this thing going, if add that ontop of the fact the British people do not want the European Union then its pretty damning.

On national identity, you can't say we have kept our national identity when we have allowed mass immigration (due to EU laws) into this country from eastern europe and we have 84% of our laws made in Brussels by unelected eurocrats.

Thats identity, not British but one of a federal europe.

[Ardemax]

no, never have like Cameron, this just makes things worse

if a man was had the skills of Churchill and a woman had the skills of donald duck, the woman should get the position because it's fair...... yeah right

the EU provides us with more benefits than not, we're better to be in the EU than not as yeah, if we weren't, we'd be losing out on things.

[-:Undertaker:-]

no, never have like Cameron, this just makes things worse

if a man was had the skills of Churchill and a woman had the skills of donald duck, the woman should get the position because it's fair...... yeah right

the EU provides us with more benefits than not, we're better to be in the EU than not as yeah, if we weren't, we'd be losing out on things.

Instead of ignoring what i've wrote would you like to tell us these great benefits that the European Union provides us with?

[Alkaz]

I found from doing AS law last year at the amount of lies and what politicians tell to riggle out of things. Dont trust them or him one bit. He looks wierd so I dont trust him for that either.

[Ardemax]

Instead of ignoring what i've wrote would you like to tell us these great benefits that the European Union provides us with?

how did i ignore you

well let's think about it, the eu was set up after the war so another war couldn't rage through europe, unless we want a war of course....
there's lots of economical bonuses like free trading and stuff

[-:Undertaker:-]

how did i ignore you

well let's think about it, the eu was set up after the war so another war couldn't rage through europe, unless we want a war of course....
there's lots of economical bonuses like free trading and stuff

You said the European Union had many benefits and totally ignored my post about how the so called 'benefits' are a mere myth. I'd like to ask you again to present to me how the EU benefits this country.

On the war, again more socialist scare-mongering. What wars has the European Union prevented, you tell me that please.

Who stopped the Cold War and the USSR? - NATO.

[alexxxxx]

don't bother arguing with undertaker, he's too ignorant of facts to argue with.

[Ardemax]

im sorry but the USSR fell apart, NATO were fighting them, EU didn't need to

[-:Undertaker:-]

don't bother arguing with undertaker, he's too ignorant of facts to argue with.

If i'm ignorant you are certainly arrogant because you continue to claim the European Union is democratic yet refuse to give the people of this country their promised referendum on it, so who really is the arrogant one.


im sorry but the USSR fell apart, NATO were fighting them, EU didn't need to

Ok, so you still haven't answered the question/s.

What benefits does the EU give to the United Kingdom?
What war has the EU stopped?

[Ardemax]

i said a war raging through europe, last time i checked that was world war 2

[FlyingJesus]

EU wasn't made until 93 lol. Its predecessor the EEC began in 58, still well after the world wars had finished

[-:Undertaker:-]

well let's think about it, the eu was set up after the war so another war couldn't rage through europe, unless we want a war of course....
there's lots of economical bonuses like free trading and stuff

What benefits does the EU give to the United Kingdom?
What war has the EU stopped?

I'm waiting for an answer.

[Ardemax]

EU wasn't made until 93 lol. Its predecessor the EEC began in 58, still well after the world wars had finished

wasn't there some sort of EU like thing like 5 years after the war?


What benefits does the EU give to the United Kingdom?
What war has the EU stopped?

I'm waiting for an answer.

troll or what

[FlyingJesus]

He's not trolling, he asked a question which you apparently can't answer, and probably shouldn't be discussing if you don't even know about it ...

I believe you're referring to the League of Nations, which failed dismally

[Ardemax]

What benefits does the EU give to the United Kingdom?
What war has the EU stopped?

I'm waiting for an answer.


i've answered one of them, so "What benefits does the EU give to the United Kingdom?"

the EU laws like you can get a job anywhere in europe, EU health legislation and things like that

[-:Undertaker:-]

i've answered one of them, so "What benefits does the EU give to the United Kingdom?"

the EU laws like you can get a job anywhere in europe, EU health legislation and things like that

'things like that'.. come on now, answer the question properly. You stated that, and to quote "the EU provides us with more benefits than not, we're better to be in the EU than not as yeah, if we weren't, we'd be losing out on things." - could you please tell us about what 'benefits' the United Kingdom is recieving from the European Union and how they are helping this country?

On the other question, it still remains unanswered so i'm sure you can reply and give an answer in a minute; What war has the EU stopped?

[Ardemax]

'things like that'.. come on now, answer the question properly. You stated that, and to quote "the EU provides us with more benefits than not, we're better to be in the EU than not as yeah, if we weren't, we'd be losing out on things." - could you please tell us about what 'benefits' the United Kingdom is recieving from the European Union and how they are helping this country?

On the other question, it still remains unanswered so i'm sure you can reply and give an answer in a minute; What war has the EU stopped?


look at my post above...

ive answered both questions, you may have to look back a bit

[-:Undertaker:-]

look at my post above...

ive answered both questions, you may have to look back a bit

You have not answered what wars the EU has stopped. I'm very keen on history, so i'd surely love to know what war the EU has prevented.

You have only replied with "the EU laws like you can get a job anywhere in europe, EU health legislation and things like that" to the supposed benefits the EU brings to the United Kingdom.

Instead of relying on other EU supporters to come to the rescue all the time, try to answer these questions, questions about claims you posted yourself.

[Ardemax]

I posted that the only war that has raged through europe since the EU was formed was.... oh yeah, there hasnt been one.

the last one being WW2

[-:Undertaker:-]

In that case then, you are implying that the European Union has stopped any war from occuring in Europe, when infact we had the Cold War which was not prevented at all by any European Union, and the very thing that brought down the USSR was socialism itself and NATO, not the European Union - especially as the European Union was only formed in 1993.

You cannot say just because their has not been a war in Europe (although their have been many battles/wars since 1945 in Europe in reality) that the European Union has been the thing stopping them. That would be like me saying that if UKIP didn't exist that the world would blow up, no evidence at all.

[FlyingJesus]

Getting a job anywhere in Europe isn't really a great benefit to us seeing as how we already get some of the highest wages in Europe anyway, and for those skilled in something that are outsourced to ... well, anywhere in the world really, it's not difficult to get working Visas sorted through the company. The only difficulty before would maybe be if you were unskilled and uneducated with a criminal record

[Wig44.]

Ardemax;

Since you have some sort of misconception that being part of the EU has more benefits than cons I thought I'd give you just a taste of the real EU:

There are EU laws which could make it a crime to participate in any activity that is 'contrary to the advancement of the EU' therefore members of anti-EU parties and people campaigning against the eu (perhaps even undertaker) could be arrested. Does this sound democratic to you? Personally it reminds me of the PRC.

If Britian entered the eurozone it would be required to hand over all gold and foreign currency (all of our pounds sterling for example) reserves to the ECB - this is to stop any eurozone country wishing to return to its own currency by preventing it from having the financial means to do so.

The proposed EU legal system is 'corpus juris' and this takes away a briton's right to be 'innocent until provent guilty'. I'm going to add a slight bit more detail to this, but very simple detail.

Our process is 1) Suspicion 2) Investigation 3) Arrest 4) Charge.

Continental law is 1) Suspicion 2) Arrest 3) Investigation 4) Charge.

Our Common Law, as far back as 1215 with Magna Carta, states that a citizen can only be judged by his peers (Section 39). These rights protect the individual against arbitrary conviction and imprisonment. Our Common Law recognises several vital rights to the citizen:



The right of Habeas Corpus (that the accused must be taken to a public court within a very short period of time, usually 24 hours, and the accusers must produce their evidence then and there)
The right to Trial by Jury at which jurors can in fact even disregard the law if they think it would give an unjust conviction. The jurors are thus ‘sovereign’
If found innocent, the accused cannot be tried again on the same charge (‘double jeopardy’

In continental europe they have the Inquisitorial system:



No Habeas Corpus so one can be imprisoned for very long periods (weeks, months, occasionally years) without any evidence being produced against you
No right to Trial by Jury as their system involves judgements being made by a career judiciary who are the judges and prosecutors and who are, to all intents and purposes, ‘colleagues’ (a quite separate body of lawyers makes the defence and are often treated as inferiors)
In most instances the accused can be tried a second time for the same offence, since the prosecution has the right of appeal against acquittal.

Following on from this, Europol (the EU 'police force') can detain you for up to 6 months without charging you of anything at all.

I have far, far more to tell. And these examples are by no means the most debilitating for the UK. So, what benefits were you talking about?

[BlueTango]

You lot argue over such stupid things, just put your differences aside and move on with the main discussion of the thread!

I hate David Cameron, always have always will!

[Wig44.]

You lot argue over such stupid things, just put your differences aside and move on with the main discussion of the thread!

I hate David Cameron, always have always will!

Such stupid things? How are they stupid?

[Robbie]

You lot argue over such stupid things, just put your differences aside and move on with the main discussion of the thread!

I hate David Cameron, always have always will!

If you don't understand how things are relevant to the thread, and how they are not pointless, then you should leave the thread as you obviously are not contributing and don't really understand.

[BlueTango]

They're stupid because in about 5 threads now people have just turnt it into a 'what has the eu ever done for us!?!?' thread....

Are you not a super moderator Robbie? Your definition of relevant is slightly unusual. How is a post about the pros and cons of the EU relevant to whether David Cameron can be trusted.
Sure, it vaguely relates to the Lisbon Treaty which has been formed by the EU, but if people want to argue over the EU, why don't they just make one big thread and save themselves the hassle.

[Wig44.]

They're stupid because in about 5 threads now people have just turnt it into a 'what has the eu ever done for us!?!?' thread....

Are you not a super moderator Robbie? Your definition of relevant is slightly unusual. How is a post about the pros and cons of the EU relevant to whether David Cameron can be trusted.
Sure, it vaguely relates to the Lisbon Treaty which has been formed by the EU, but if people want to argue over the EU, why don't they just make one big thread and save themselves the hassle.

The rule about off-topic posting was changed a long time ago to take into account the fact that a conversation in a thread can fall away from the original topic without any irrelevant posts. This has happened here, with the topics being so interconnected.

[Orangeesh]

lets face it, hes a douche bag.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Ardemax;

Since you have some sort of misconception that being part of the EU has more benefits than cons I thought I'd give you just a taste of the real EU:

There are EU laws which could make it a crime to participate in any activity that is 'contrary to the advancement of the EU' therefore members of anti-EU parties and people campaigning against the eu (perhaps even undertaker) could be arrested. Does this sound democratic to you? Personally it reminds me of the PRC.

If Britian entered the eurozone it would be required to hand over all gold and foreign currency (all of our pounds sterling for example) reserves to the ECB - this is to stop any eurozone country wishing to return to its own currency by preventing it from having the financial means to do so.

The proposed EU legal system is 'corpus juris' and this takes away a briton's right to be 'innocent until provent guilty'. I'm going to add a slight bit more detail to this, but very simple detail.

Our process is 1) Suspicion 2) Investigation 3) Arrest 4) Charge.

Continental law is 1) Suspicion 2) Arrest 3) Investigation 4) Charge.

Our Common Law, as far back as 1215 with Magna Carta, states that a citizen can only be judged by his peers (Section 39). These rights protect the individual against arbitrary conviction and imprisonment. Our Common Law recognises several vital rights to the citizen:



The right of Habeas Corpus (that the accused must be taken to a public court within a very short period of time, usually 24 hours, and the accusers must produce their evidence then and there)
The right to Trial by Jury at which jurors can in fact even disregard the law if they think it would give an unjust conviction. The jurors are thus ‘sovereign’
If found innocent, the accused cannot be tried again on the same charge (‘double jeopardy’

In continental europe they have the Inquisitorial system:



No Habeas Corpus so one can be imprisoned for very long periods (weeks, months, occasionally years) without any evidence being produced against you
No right to Trial by Jury as their system involves judgements being made by a career judiciary who are the judges and prosecutors and who are, to all intents and purposes, ‘colleagues’ (a quite separate body of lawyers makes the defence and are often treated as inferiors)
In most instances the accused can be tried a second time for the same offence, since the prosecution has the right of appeal against acquittal.

Following on from this, Europol (the EU 'police force') can detain you for up to 6 months without charging you of anything at all.

I have far, far more to tell. And these examples are by no means the most debilitating for the UK. So, what benefits were you talking about?


Totally agreed, and it seems that he himself and other eurocrats on this forum do not seem to have a reply to this detailed and good post, now theres a suprise!

[Ardemax]

Totally agreed, and it seems that he himself and other eurocrats on this forum do not seem to have a reply to this detailed and good post, now theres a suprise!

my god, shut up.

Edited by invincible (Forum Super Moderator): Please don't be rude

[-:Undertaker:-]

my god, shut up.

Come on Ardemax, reply to his post with your reply instead of ignoring it!

[Wig44.]

Totally agreed, and it seems that he himself and other eurocrats on this forum do not seem to have a reply to this detailed and good post, now theres a suprise!

It's funny, however, that you seem to get a myriad of pro-EU replies when you are not asking them how the EU benefits us, but when you state your beliefs of a Britain without the EU. I want to see evidence, but since none is posted I'll assume they have none.