Should the United Kingdom leave the European Union?

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/125px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Flag_of_Europe.svg/125px-Flag_of_Europe.svg.png





Should the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland leave the European Union?




The European Union issue is becoming more and more important as the years have rolled on, because its now accepted that 84% of our laws are made in the European Union by the European Commission, which is an unelected body. In recent years the march towards a European superstate, a federal Europe has become faster and faster. Many would argue that the European Union is already a superstate as it has the following/will have the following with the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty;



A President of Europe.
A Foreign Secretary of Europe.
The loss of national veto is many areas (meaning can impose laws without the consent of national govt)
A single monetary currency.
A place on the world stage next to the United States and the Peoples Republic of China.
The power so that it makes 84% of all laws in the United Kingdom every year.
A flag.
An anthem.
A military.
Its own legal identity.
Its own embassies around the world.
In the European Parliamentary Elections 2009 (United Kingdom) the United Kingdom Independance Party (UKIP) came second and beat the ruling Labour Party in votes and seats won, a party which demands and campaigns actively for the United Kingdom to leave the European Union. UKIP and other euro-sceptics argue that the European Union is the goal for a United States of Europe and that the United Kingdom should withdraw as it is unelected and unwanted.


The British public was given a referendum on the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1975 however no referendums have since been held on the European Union, which is a political, social and economic union, not a community. In 2005 the three main parties; Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats all pledged to hold a referendum on the reform of the European Union if they gained office. As it goes, Labour won that election and have refused to hold a referendum and the Conservatives have recentley abandoned their pledge to hold a referendum.


Important quotes relating to the European Union;

"The creation of a single European state bound by one European constitution is 'the decisive task of our time'" - Joschka Fischer, former German Foreign Minister, 1998.

"We have persistently called for a referendum. Once we know the final text of the new constitution we should have the debate and there are no grounds for delaying the referendum." - Michael Howard, former Conservative Party leader, 2005.

"If there are further steps to European integration, the people should have their say at a general election or in a referendum." - Tony Blair, former British Prime Minister, 1997.

"There is no danger of a single currency." - Ted Heath, former British Prime Minister, 1975.

"Europe's nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation." - Jean Monnet, Founder of the European Movement, 1952.

"I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account." - Raymond Barre, former French Prime Minister.

Sissons: "...the single currency, the United States of Europe: was that on your mind when you took Britain in?"
Heath: "Of course, Yes." - Ted Heath, former British Prime Minister, 1991.

"The creeping unification of Europe ... since the time of Jacques Delors [has been] managed by the bureaucrats from Brussels behind the back of the continent's population, behind the back of the citizens of individual member states" - Valclav Klaus, President of the Czech Republic, 2003.

"We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed" - Sir Winston Churchill, former British Prime Minister during World War II.


Important sites relating to the European Union;


www.ukip.org (http://www.ukip.org)
www.bnp.org.uk (http://www.bnp.org.uk)
www.conservatives.com (http://www.conservatives.com)
www.labour.org.uk (http://www.labour.org.uk)
www.libdems.org.uk (http://www.libdems.org.uk)
www.europa.eu (http://www.europa.eu)


Do the British people deserve a referendum on European Union membership and do you personally think the United Kingdom should leave the European Union?

[Special]

YES. They ae banning to many things that are not important. EG, sound limit on MP3 player.

[GommeInc]

The only thing the EU was good for was uniting Europe (strangely in the name), but Europe is far too diverse an area to even attempt merging them together under one name, and I don't see how that would accomplish anything when each individual country has been doing well on its own so far :/

All that needed to be touched were the markets and trade, but even then trading has been happening for hundreds of years. It makes very little sense to me :/

[Hitman]

Yes, we should get the hell out. I think the EU would be useful for one thing: if there was a huge dispute against two European countries and war was to break out (like WWII). However, all European countries get along (pretty much so), so I doubt the next big war will be between two European countries.

I don't want the UK to EVER use the Euro as its currency - I am certain this will happen eventually if we stay in the EU. And I imagine many other British things will go down the drain. :(

[Blue]

Yes, I must admit, this seems like a big sinkhole our money is going into.
While it does seem appealing on a global stage (a group voice, millitary) for England as a country, it's more or less useless. For the smaller countries of the world, it sets a good standard of living, but then, we had that anyway.

[Accipiter]

i would rather join the USA

But dropping out would make us a little country of nobodys. Even though the EU in a whole sounds like its leading to a disaster, dropping out would also lead to that.

But if all countries just turn around and say "no your not deciding these things without our say" then it should be taken, who works or decides these rules for the EU anyway, it sounds entirely hidden and secretive to me.

[Eoin]

the uk should split and let the countries make their own ******* decision about wether or not to leave

[alexxxxx]

no. and you're really boring. broken record.

pull out of the EU and we'll some unexpected circumstances. bad ones. and we rely on it.

that's it. that's all.

[dbgtz]

I think it should just be treated as a novelty thing and just have basic rules to join. Like a club, countries do things together.

[-:Undertaker:-]

i would rather join the USA

But dropping out would make us a little country of nobodys. Even though the EU in a whole sounds like its leading to a disaster, dropping out would also lead to that.

But if all countries just turn around and say "no your not deciding these things without our say" then it should be taken, who works or decides these rules for the EU anyway, it sounds entirely hidden and secretive to me.

We, the United Kingdom have the worlds sixth largest economy and are one of the centers of finance in the world, to say that without the European Union we'd face disaster is a downright lie by the eurocrats, 150+ other nations on this Earth who aren't part of the European Union do just fine and they are all the way down the list of the strongest world economies.


the uk should split and let the countries make their own ******* decision about wether or not to leave

England would still end up paying for Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales even if the United Kingdom did break up, because you would all join the European Union and have even less national power than you did under the United Kingdom. The Republic of Ireland moaned and moaned about independance from the British Empire, and now they have joined the EU which makes 84% of its laws and ther United Kingdom still ends up paying for the Republic of Ireland in EU subsidies.. so whats the difference?

Northern Ireland wants to be a part of the United Kingdom as far as I know.


no. and you're really boring. broken record.

pull out of the EU and we'll some unexpected circumstances. bad ones. and we rely on it.

that's it. that's all.

What unexpected circumstances? - you mean the ability to make our own laws?. You yourself are a self-confessed federalist, you want to see a Federal Europe - we do not. Instead of making crazy statements about 'consquences' of leaving the European Union, why don't you tell us them?

[GommeInc]

I don't know why the EU didn't just exist to help the weaker European countries, the western ones were doing perfectly fine without the EU :/ The UK, Spain, France, Italy, The Netherlands, Germany, Belgium. Heck, Switzerland is living proof that dependence on something like the European Union isn't necessary. The only thing I can think of the that the EU had helped with was re-building, but that was a group effort of each individual country, not that of the EUs :/

[alexxxxx]

What unexpected circumstances? - you mean the ability to make our own laws?. You yourself are a self-confessed federalist, you want to see a Federal Europe - we do not. Instead of making crazy statements about 'consquences' of leaving the European Union, why don't you tell us them?

A siginificant drop in foreign investment, multinationals leaving crippling the final pieces of manufacturing we have, 750 000 people who live in spain (mostly without jobs, retired folks) uncertain about their future, the thousands of british living abroad in high-value jobs uncertain with their future also, students abroad in programmes funded by EU will have their courses killed, import/export duties on products, cuts in funding in sectors overlooked by british government. Hundreds of thousands of eastern europeans in low paid jobs will have to leave plus those in high paid jobs possibly meaning we're unlikely to be able to plug gaps in vacancies.

I'd expect MASSIVE inflation, a drop in the value of the pound, another recession and another lost decade.

If you eurosceptics stopped complaining and sorted out forming a new party which is electable, you might have a chance. UKIP is a fraud-ridden, petty, self-righteous unelectable mess with no real policies.

[-:Undertaker:-]

A siginificant drop in foreign investment, multinationals leaving crippling the final pieces of manufacturing we have, 750 000 people who live in spain (mostly without jobs, retired folks) uncertain about their future, the thousands of british living abroad in high-value jobs uncertain with their future also, students abroad in programmes funded by EU will have their courses killed, import/export duties on products, cuts in funding in sectors overlooked by british government. Hundreds of thousands of eastern europeans in low paid jobs will have to leave plus those in high paid jobs possibly meaning we're unlikely to be able to plug gaps in vacancies.

I'd expect MASSIVE inflation, a drop in the value of the pound, another recession and another lost decade.

If you eurosceptics stopped complaining and sorted out forming a new party which is electable, you might have a chance. UKIP is a fraud-ridden, petty, self-righteous unelectable mess with no real policies.



A seperate independant treaty with the Spanish government would be enforced to assure the placement of all those people living in Spain, Spanish settlements could not afford to lose that investment. That is one of the best things about independance, working it out between ourselves.
The students who are 'funded by the EU' would not lose their courses, the money we gained back from leaving the EU would leave us with billions upon billions extra to fund any outgoing programmes such as that, and that money could be spent here where it was generated.
Multi-nationals would not have to leave, immigration/work permits can be granted via visas just like they are throughout the rest of the world.
The pound would not drop, its not related to the Euro at all and investment would not drop either, the rest of the world in not in the European Union so why would investment drop? - if anything, the loss of thousands upon thousands of crippling regulations that costs business billions every year in enforcing because of the EU, business would actually stand to gain.
We are the worlds sixth largest economy, investment would not dry up at all. Utter rubbish.
How would a recession come about? - where there is money to be made, there is money to be made. It is as simple as that.

Yet more scare-mongering from the federalists none of which makes any sense what so ever. I notice you still wouldn't support a referendum on the issue which goes to show, afraid of the democratic voice of people. UKIP beat Labour and the Liberal Democrats in the European Elections, which goes to show what people think of your federalist superstate.

[alexxxxx]

A seperate independant treaty with the Spanish government would be enforced to assure the placement of all those people living in Spain, Spanish settlements could not afford to lose that investment. That is one of the best things about independance, working it out between ourselves.


Not possible due to the schengen area. Every one of them would require a schengen visa, which normally wouldn't be granted for those without jobs.





The students who are 'funded by the EU' would not lose their courses, the money we gained back from leaving the EU would leave us with billions upon billions extra to fund any outgoing programmes such as that, and that money could be spent here where it was generated.

So we'll still pay the same amount of money, no money saved.





Multi-nationals would not have to leave, immigration/work permits can be granted via visas just like they are throughout the rest of the world.

Say a car company is producing cars and they export ALOT of them to france and germany. France puts a tax of €500 for every car imported from us. Car companies stop producing here and move to france. Not everyone here already (especially doing lowly paid jobs) will be eligible. Massive demand for labour, increase in wage... INFLATION. I guess you can't think through consequences..





The pound would not drop, its not related to the Euro at all and investment would not drop either, the rest of the world in not in the European Union so why would investment drop? - if anything, the loss of thousands upon thousands of crippling regulations that costs business billions every year in enforcing because of the EU, business would actually stand to gain.

Well done, the pound is not related to the euro. That's a good one. I tell you understand basic economic principals. :rolleyes: It's a bit deeper than that. Inflation, which is almost guaranteed, due to the exit of the EU will devalue the pound.




How would a recession come about? - where there is money to be made, there is money to be made. It is as simple as that.

Yet more scare-mongering from the federalists none of which makes any sense what so ever. I notice you still wouldn't support a referendum on the issue which goes to show, afraid of the democratic voice of people.Due to inevitable inflation caused by more expensive imports, a recession is a great possibility.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Not possible due to the schengen area. Every one of them would require a schengen visa, which normally wouldn't be granted for those without jobs...so basically you have just admitted that the European Union stifles free movement/trade, thats what you are saying. The Spanish government could not remove 750,000+ people from Spain, a solution would be found such as a sovereign treaty.


So we'll still pay the same amount of money, no money saved.Actually no, because that would be a fraction of the cost of leaving the European Union. We pay 40/50 million just in membership every day, not including all the other costs of the European Union, I saw a post on this very forum the other day which put the cost of one part of the EU at 50 billion a year.


Say a car company is producing cars and they export ALOT of them to france and germany. France puts a tax of €500 for every car imported from us. Car companies stop producing here and move to france. Not everyone here already (especially doing lowly paid jobs) will be eligible. Massive demand for labour, increase in wage... INFLATION. I guess you can't think through consequences..We hardly have any car companies left, and theres something else; tariffs and trade costs can be reduced/removed just like every other single country in the world does.


Well done, the pound is not related to the euro. That's a good one. I tell you understand basic economic principals. :rolleyes: It's a bit deeper than that. Inflation, which is almost guaranteed, due to the exit of the EU will devalue the pound.Currencies change all the time, perhaps in the first few days it would decrease, however like all currencies it would bounce back. The pound is tied more closely with the dollar than the Euro. If every other currency crashed because they are not part of the European Union anymore, why is the whole of the world not using the Euro?

A currency reflects the economy, not whether or not you are a EU member.


Due to inevitable inflation caused by more expensive imports, a recession is a great possibility.Wrong, there is something called trade co-operation, where both countries work to lower tariffs on exports/imports - very simple economics yet without the glorious European Union it seems this would not be possible in your blurred eyes.

..would you also like to tell me why the British people do not deserve a referendum on an unelected federal state that creates 84% of their laws?

[alexxxxx]

..so basically you have just admitted that the European Union stifles free trade, thats what you are saying. The Spanish government could not remove 750,000+ people from Spain, a solution would be found.

what the hell are you on about? the schengen area has nothing to with economics, apart from the removal of internal borders. The EU cares about Free trade between themselves.



We hardly have any car companies left, and theres something else; tariffs and trade costs can be reduced/removed just like every other single country in the world does.

We service the european market here, not the US market, not the south american market, not the asian market in manufacturing high value goods. Thousands and thousands of jobs where i live in the derby/nottingham/midlands area depends on being able to export and import from within the european union. It's not just the car market though is it? We have toyota, rolls-royce, bombadier and countless other makers employing people here. Millions of jobs require on our ability to export and import freely. Granted, not every one of these jobs would be affected with leaving the EU, but some would ultimately be lost. Misguided protectionist legislation would no doubt be implemented increasing prices.



Currencies change all the time, perhaps in the first few days it would decrease, however like all currencies it would bounce back. The pound is tied more closely with the dollar than the Euro. If every other currency crashed because they are not part of the European Union anymore, why is the whole of the world not using the Euro?

this has absolutely nothing to do with the euro. The pound would drop due to INFLATION cause by a large increase in labour costs. The effects of this might not be felt for 3-6months.



Wrong, there is something called trade co-operation, where both countries work to lower tariffs on exports/imports - very simple economics yet without the glorious European Union it seems this would not be possible in your blurred eyes.

Which is called the EEA when negotiaiting with the EU, which essentially means being faxed laws from brussels to implement.



..would you also like to tell me why the British people do not deserve a referendum on an unelected federal state that creates 84% of their laws?
You must never read my posts.

[-:Undertaker:-]

what the hell are you on about? the schengen area has nothing to with economics, apart from the removal of internal borders. The EU cares about Free trade between themselves.Does the EU trade with other nations outside of the EU?

If yes, then why can the United Kingdom not also trade as an outside partner.

If no, then the EU is a closed economy.


We service the european market here, not the US market, not the south american market, not the asian market in manufacturing high value goods. Thousands and thousands of jobs where i live in the derby/nottingham/midlands area depends on being able to export and import from within the european union. It's not just the car market though is it? We have toyota, rolls-royce, bombadier and countless other makers employing people here. Millions of jobs require on our ability to export and import freely. Granted, not every one of these jobs would be affected with leaving the EU, but some would ultimately be lost. Misguided protectionist legislation would no doubt be implemented increasing prices...so what, the EU will all of a sudden stop buying our cars? - no, what you simply do it work together and work out a independant and free trade policy with limited tariffs between the United Kingdom and the EU. The rest of the world does it, do why can we not?

I and euro-sceptics are not saying lets stop trading with the EU and be isolationist, all we are saying is that we want to trade and be friends with Europe, but without being governed by Europe.


this has absolutely nothing to do with the euro. The pound would drop due to INFLATION cause by a large increase in labour costs. The effects of this might not be felt for 3-6months.
There would not be a big increase in Labour costs at all, have other European nations and the rest of the world suffered rapid inflation rises and a deflating currency because they are not in the European Union?


You must never read my posts.Now now, come on. I want you to tell me why the British people do not deserve the right to say whether they want to be part of a European Federal superstate which makes 84% of their laws unelected - I want the answer why direct democracy doesn't seem good enough for you when it comes to this issue.

[LuketheDuke]

the 84% lie which you keep on regurgitating is a LIE

please any poster who reads such a figure please do not believe it, annoys the heck out of me.

lets all leave the global leader of GDP per capita in the middle of a recession, lets all pay more for things when their cheaper at the moment, lets all put our faith in a judicial system which is as corrupt as our monarchy.

stupid.

[Blinger1]

Heck, Switzerland is living proof that dependence on something like the European Union isn't necessary.
Us Swiss are quite the clever type :8

[-:Undertaker:-]

the 84% lie which you keep on regurgitating is a LIE

please any poster who reads such a figure please do not believe it, annoys the heck out of me.

lets all leave the global leader of GDP per capita in the middle of a recession, lets all pay more for things when their cheaper at the moment, lets all put our faith in a judicial system which is as corrupt as our monarchy.

stupid.

On the issue of the global leader, well you just said it yourself. You are also a left wing socialist federalist who appears to have something against the monarchy, yet turns a blind eye to the unchecked audit books in the European Union from which BILLIONS have gone missing over the past decade. Do you support a referendum on Britains EU membership?

Who am I going to trust to put myself and my family first? - my own country or a federation of 27 other countries? - doesn't even need an answer.

The 84% is not a lie at all, it was the only study done on this subject and it was done by a German think-tank which worked out this figure for Germany which many agree is applical to the United Kingdom both based on size and economics. On Question Time the Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan mentioned this figure and it wasn't even dismissed by the Labour MP. It is fact and is widely accepted both by eurosceptics and pro-federalists.

..so who are people going to believe, the EU or an independant study?

[Ardemax]

no, as the united kingdom's economy would crumble slightly

[Chippiewill]

No, since passport control would take longer

[alexxxxx]

Does the EU trade with other nations outside of the EU?

If yes, then why can the United Kingdom not also trade as an outside partner.

If no, then the EU is a closed economy.

..so what, the EU will all of a sudden stop buying our cars? - no, what you simply do it work together and work out a independant and free trade policy with limited tariffs between the United Kingdom and the EU. The rest of the world does it, do why can we not?

Yes, quite possibly. The European Union have a LOT of bargaining power with us. What's to stop them from banging a €500 levy on our cars?

The EU of course trades with other countries, but the main focus is free trade and a single market between member states, not everyone else.

Trade treaties are not simple in any case. Things have to be bargained for and against. And alot (but not all) of the chips are in their hand.


I and euro-sceptics are not saying lets stop trading with the EU and be isolationist, all we are saying is that we want to trade and be friends with Europe, but without being governed by Europe.

We can do this by joining the EEA, less contribution, but we get no say in alot of laws that we still have to abide by.


There would not be a big increase in Labour costs at all, have other European nations and the rest of the world suffered rapid inflation rises and a deflating currency because they are not in the European Union?

What the bloody hell are you on about? Of course there will be inflation... No more polish builders or plumbers, higher costs of labour in employing british ones. Lower supply of labour into the unskilled labour market means an increase in labour costs... Surely you can see that? Inflation means a falling pound. You obviously don't understand some very basic economic principals.



Now now, come on. I want you to tell me why the British people do not deserve the right to say whether they want to be part of a European Federal superstate which makes 84% of their laws unelected - I want the answer why direct democracy doesn't seem good enough for you when it comes to this issue.
Direct Democracy is very very flawed, due to the fact that not everyone has the capactity, mentally-wise and time-wise or to be able to consider the implications of such a move. That's why we elect MPs who are meant to do that for us. That's how our democracy works. You only have the right to complain in my view if you voted for an MP with conflicting messages.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yes, quite possibly. The European Union have a LOT of bargaining power with us. What's to stop them from banging a €500 levy on our cars?..because what you do then, is you threaten them with trade wars by threatening to put taxes on their goods coming here, we have the commonwealth and the United States to turn to, Europe has nobody but itself to turn to.

Trade wars will not happen, does it happen with any other non-EU European nation?

The EU of course trades with other countries, but the main focus is free trade and a single market between member states, not everyone else.


Trade treaties are not simple in any case. Things have to be bargained for and against. And alot (but not all) of the chips are in their hand.They are simple, if Europe needs us like we are told we need them, then we can still trade with Europe and co-operate, but it means we are not governed by Europe. You and other eurocrats always try to complicate the issue, the rest of the world does it - why can't we?


We can do this by joining the EEA, less contribution, but we get no say in alot of laws that we still have to abide by.Not good enough.

I want my laws to be made by my government, my democratically elected government who I voted in based on their manifesto and promises/ideas. The United Kingdom did not vote for these people to make our laws, to tell us how loud our mp3s' can be, what colour our traffic lights can and cannot be, how big our fruit and veg is appropiate, what measurement system we use, what and how we trade.

Do you federalists not understand this?


What the bloody hell are you on about? Of course there will be inflation... No more polish builders or plumbers, higher costs of labour in employing british ones. Lower supply of labour into the unskilled labour market means an increase in labour costs... Surely you can see that? Inflation means a falling pound. You obviously don't understand some very basic economic principals.I'm not sure whether you understand or not that we are in a recession and the housing market has been laying off worker after worker, company after company has gone bust because there are no jobs. I'm afraid leaving the EU doesn't stop us having a open-border policy to those who wish to work here, have you not heard of a visa?


Direct Democracy is very very flawed, due to the fact that not everyone has the capactity, mentally-wise and time-wise or to be able to consider the implications of such a move. That's why we elect MPs who are meant to do that for us. That's how our democracy works. You only have the right to complain in my view if you voted for an MP with conflicting messages.The former minister for Europe, Caroline Flint an MP didn't read the Lisbon Treaty yet she, just like you, is telling the British people they are too stupid to make a decision. How arrogant of you, so is that why we don't elect the EU commission because our poor mental skills would make us vote for the wrong person?

Direct democracy does what it says, its direct. Do you want the United Kingdom to be a part of the European Union? - SIMPLE 2 ANSWER QUESTION.

Do not insult the publics intelligence in this country by telling them they don't have the mental skills/understand what the European Union/Lisbon Treaty is. On your point about MPs', not party ever said in their manifesto that they would sign the United Kingdom up to the European Union, its been pushed down on us;

We NEVER voted to join the EU.

[Ardemax]

We NEVER voted to join the EU.

ahhh you're right, that would explain why there are riots in the street at the anger over it through the past 15 years or so
seriously though, less time at passport control and free trading in the EU is surely not a bad thing

[-:Undertaker:-]

ahhh you're right, that would explain why there are riots in the street at the anger over it through the past 15 years or so
seriously though, less time at passport control and free trading in the EU is surely not a bad thing

The British people are not like the French and others, and why would we take to violence against something, would you prefer that? - and as proven above the European Union is not free trading, free trading is sovereign trading between independant and individual states, not a political, social and economic union.

Oh and 5 minutes less at passport control isn't worth tens of billions, if not hundreds of billions every year to the British taxypayer.

PS. If you are going discuss the issue properly this time, then be prepared to answer questions rather than avoid them like in other threads.

[Alkaz]

The treaty should never have been signed in 1970 (or when ever it was, I;m sure it came into play on 1st Jan 1971/2). Yes we should leave. Great Britain is no longer 'great'.

[GommeInc]

Arguably, it is too late to pull out of the EU. The EU has made it so that if you disagree, you're kinda stuck unless more countries start pulling out at the same time.

[Alkaz]

We need to try and get out of it asap before they pass laws saying no one can get out of it. Or if we can it will probably cost like £100bn

[BlueTango]

I do think that this country needs to hold a referendum on the EU. It's something that a majority of this country doesn't even want to be a part of. The problem is; what's the chance of it happening?

The next election will be between two parties; Labour and Conservative. They're the only parties that can win - yet none of them are offering us a referendum.

[alexxxxx]

..because what you do then, is you threaten them with trade wars by threatening to put taxes on their goods coming here, we have the commonwealth and the United States to turn to, Europe has nobody but itself to turn to.

Trade wars will not happen, does it happen with any other non-EU European nation?

The USA only cares about number 1. It has shown this with stupidly one-way treaties we have signed with them before. The commonwealth is pretty much defunct now, much of it undeveloped, small economies. The only ones with any real use are canada, australia, singapore and india (im not even sure the latter 2 are even in the commonwealth).



They are simple, if Europe needs us like we are told we need them, then we can still trade with Europe and co-operate, but it means we are not governed by Europe. You and other eurocrats always try to complicate the issue, the rest of the world does it - why can't we?

Because it won't be the same. We will simply not get the security of free and unrestricted trade. You can't deny that.


Not good enough.

I want my laws to be made by my government, my democratically elected government who I voted in based on their manifesto and promises/ideas. The United Kingdom did not vote for these people to make our laws, to tell us how loud our mp3s' can be, what colour our traffic lights can and cannot be, how big our fruit and veg is appropiate, what measurement system we use, what and how we trade.

You know that the last law you quoted there has been relaxed, the middle one has perfectly good reasons for existing (colourblind people), the first is just common sense.


I'm not sure whether you understand or not that we are in a recession and the housing market has been laying off worker after worker, company after company has gone bust because there are no jobs. I'm afraid leaving the EU doesn't stop us having a open-border policy to those who wish to work here, have you not heard of a visa?

By definition it does. Plus this recession will be over in a few months and growth will resume. 2 years down the line we will be eating up the unemployement line (unless the tories decide to cut public spending wayyy tooo early). Of course I've heard of a visa, but the fact is that this will stifle the movement of labour and will not be an open door. It will be a closed door with a key. A key you have to wait a few months to a year to recieve and which you may never recieve. And the other way round. This could encourage illegal immigration from the EU.


The former minister for Europe, Caroline Flint an MP didn't read the Lisbon Treaty yet she, just like you, is telling the British people they are too stupid to make a decision. How arrogant of you, so is that why we don't elect the EU commission because our poor mental skills would make us vote for the wrong person?

Direct democracy does what it says, its direct. Do you want the United Kingdom to be a part of the European Union? - SIMPLE 2 ANSWER QUESTION.

Do not insult the publics intelligence in this country by telling them they don't have the mental skills/understand what the European Union/Lisbon Treaty is. On your point about MPs', not party ever said in their manifesto that they would sign the United Kingdom up to the European Union, its been pushed down on us;

We NEVER voted to join the EU.
No, you can't be too stupid to vote in someone, but you can be too stupid to vote on a piece of legislation or treaty.

It's not about intelligence. It's about ignorance. Which is what alot of people are, including the old europe minister. I think it's disgusting that she didn't read it but that shouldn't be a reason for not resuming with this system.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The USA only cares about number 1. It has shown this with stupidly one-way treaties we have signed with them before. The commonwealth is pretty much defunct now, much of it undeveloped, small economies. The only ones with any real use are canada, australia, singapore and india (im not even sure the latter 2 are even in the commonwealth).

The United States and the United Kingdom still share more in common, even Charles De Gallue who was one of the people who started the European superstate that is being built said that the United Kingdoms future lies together with the United States. On the commonwealth, well yes and it should be looked at more carefully. I do not want a commonwealth which takes away Indian, British, Canadian etc sovereignty, I want a commonwealth which looks after eachothers interests within trading and afterall we share a lot with the commonwealth as it was the former Empire.


Because it won't be the same. We will simply not get the security of free and unrestricted trade. You can't deny that.

What security? - there is no threat from Europe and there should never be and would never be, friends with Europe but not govered by Europe. It is as simple as that. One currency and one economic system puts national interests at risk and especially in a downturn, hence why all major economies which were structured similar to that of the European Union all collapsed.


You know that the last law you quoted there has been relaxed, the middle one has perfectly good reasons for existing (colourblind people), the first is just common sense.

..no sorry it does not make common sense, common sense is the common sense to turn something down if it is too loud. You do not punish the majority for the minorities sake of being too stupid to turn the thing down, being told how loud our mp3s can be is not worth billions in cash every year, and more to the point since when did the British people ask for the unelected EU commission to make these petty rules for them?


By definition it does. Plus this recession will be over in a few months and growth will resume. 2 years down the line we will be eating up the unemployement line (unless the tories decide to cut public spending wayyy tooo early). Of course I've heard of a visa, but the fact is that this will stifle the movement of labour and will not be an open door. It will be a closed door with a key. A key you have to wait a few months to a year to recieve and which you may never recieve. And the other way round. This could encourage illegal immigration from the EU.

Visas do not stifle the movement of people, it depends on the individual government on the conditions for which visas are granted. We already have illegal immigration in the EU, of which all comes here - so whats the difference except that when independant we have the key to lock the door to those who we do not want.


No, you can't be too stupid to vote in someone, but you can be too stupid to vote on a piece of legislation or treaty.

Oh so we can vote for the government of 5 years, but we cannot vote on a piece of paper which gives more power to the European Union, which in turn is also unelected. I think the only thing that is stupid is the argument you are putting forward to avoid a referendum.


It's not about intelligence. It's about ignorance. Which is what alot of people are, including the old europe minister. I think it's disgusting that she didn't read it but that shouldn't be a reason for not resuming with this system.

The reason for not resuming with this federal system is because it was never voted in, it continues to surrender national sovereignty which goes against both the monarchy and government practice of this national, aswell as common sense.

We know you want a federal europe, but to deny the people a vote on a federal europe because they are 'too stupid' is pure arrogance. How about this; we have our referendum and obviously that would lead to a pull out, then we deny you a referendum later on on whether we should be members or not, because you are 'too stupid' - well thats how the British public have been treated.

Not nice on the other end of the stick is it.

[alexxxxx]

The United States and the United Kingdom still share more in common, even Charles De Gallue who was one of the people who started the European superstate that is being built said that the United Kingdoms future lies together with the United States. On the commonwealth, well yes and it should be looked at more carefully. I do not want a commonwealth which takes away Indian, British, Canadian etc sovereignty, I want a commonwealth which looks after eachothers interests within trading and afterall we share a lot with the commonwealth as it was the former Empire.

CdG was a ****. The UK is not the same as the USA culturally. Moreso, the majority of the commonwealth is not 20miles from the UK and can be accessed by train.



What security? - there is no threat from Europe and there should never be and would never be, friends with Europe but not govered by Europe. It is as simple as that. One currency and one economic system puts national interests at risk and especially in a downturn, hence why all major economies which were structured similar to that of the European Union all collapsed.

I meant security of free trade. The single market is a fundamental principle of the EU. This can never be removed. There has not been an economy like the EU ever... So I don't know how you're basing this on. The only economy like this is what the USA was like in the early stages.




Visas do not stifle the movement of people, it depends on the individual government on the conditions for which visas are granted. We already have illegal immigration in the EU, of which all comes here - so whats the difference except that when independant we have the key to lock the door to those who we do not want.

Yes they do. It takes time to get a visa. At the moment I can move to France tomorrow without a visa. I just have to sign a few papers confirming residence on the other end. Illegal immigrants 'all coming here,' what a load of tosh. I bet you've never been to italy where they are VERY prevelant. It's like the hypocrisy of some tabloids who say that immigrants come here only for our benefits system (which only in some circumstances they are allowed acess to) and then go on to complain they take up loads of jobs.



Oh so we can vote for the government of 5 years, but we cannot vote on a piece of paper which gives more power to the European Union, which in turn is also unelected. I think the only thing that is stupid is the argument you are putting forward to avoid a referendum.

The reason for not resuming with this federal system is because it was never voted in, it continues to surrender national sovereignty which goes against both the monarchy and government practice of this national, aswell as common sense.

We know you want a federal europe, but to deny the people a vote on a federal europe because they are 'too stupid' is pure arrogance. How about this; we have our referendum and obviously that would lead to a pull out, then we deny you a referendum later on on whether we should be members or not, because you are 'too stupid' - well thats how the British public have been treated.

Not nice on the other end of the stick is it.
The EU isn't unelected as the parliament can sack the comission (ie, the 'unelected bit').

I wouldn't expect a referendum on the other way. I'd expect a democractically elected parliament to do it... Plumbers are best at plumbing, bankers are best at banking, metalworkers are best at their trade and MPs are best at running the country.

[-:Undertaker:-]

CdG was a ****. The UK is not the same as the USA culturally. Moreso, the majority of the commonwealth is not 20miles from the UK and can be accessed by train.

The United States is the same as the United Kingdom culturally, we both shared culture openly and continue to do so, while Europe openly shunned the US from de Gallue to Chirac. The commonwealth may not be 20 miles away from the United Kingdom, but is independant and more importantly, has a bigger trading base with more potential (especially India).

We managed a Empire that spanned the globe two hundred years ago, please do not tell me that being futher away from India than France is a terrible problem, especially when taking into mind that we now have planes, super-ships and all other methods of transport which the victorians lacked.


I meant security of free trade. The single market is a fundamental principle of the EU. This can never be removed. There has not been an economy like the EU ever... So I don't know how you're basing this on. The only economy like this is what the USA was like in the early stages.

The economy of the Soviet Union was similar to that of the European Union, both disliked trading with others outside (proved by you pointing out how Europe would impose tariffs on the United Kingdom if it dared to leave the EU) and prefers to trade within itself.


Yes they do. It takes time to get a visa. At the moment I can move to France tomorrow without a visa. I just have to sign a few papers confirming residence on the other end. Illegal immigrants 'all coming here,' what a load of tosh. I bet you've never been to italy where they are VERY prevelant. It's like the hypocrisy of some tabloids who say that immigrants come here only for our benefits system (which only in some circumstances they are allowed acess to) and then go on to complain they take up loads of jobs.

Italy has now thrown out all of the crime ridden gypsies who were making Italians lives a misery, camps were being set up and Italy was in chaos a few months ago if you don't remember. Italy ignored the EU and threw them all out, just what we should be doing. It is simple what we want alex; immigration but controlled.

We want our key to our own front door and safe back.


The EU isn't unelected as the parliament can sack the comission (ie, the 'unelected bit').

The commission is not elected.
It is not democratic.

The European Union was not elected.
It is not democratic.

The 'parliament' of the Soviet Union also had the power technically to sack the top of the Communist Party, the Commission just like the CP holds the power aswell as being corrupt..

I found this from wikipedia, i've heard of it before but quite an interesting little fact about the European Union and its Commission;

In 2005, Nigel Farage, UKIP MEP requested that the European Commission disclose where the individual Commissioners had spent their holidays. The Commission did not provide the information requested, on the basis that the Commissioners had a right of privacy. The German newspaper Die Welt reported that the President of the European Commission, José Barroso had spent a week on the yacht of the Greek shipping billionaire Spiro Latsis. It emerged soon afterwards that this had occurred only a month before the Commission approved 10.3 million euros of Greek state aid for Latsis' shipping company.


I wouldn't expect a referendum on the other way. I'd expect a democractically elected parliament to do it... Plumbers are best at plumbing, bankers are best at banking, metalworkers are best at their trade and MPs are best at running the country.

Plumbers, bankers, metalworkers all make up the public. The public are best at making the decision because that is democracy, maybe you cannot see it just as many socialists before you couldn't; Lenin, Mao, Marx, Stalin, Pol Pot etc.. but that is democracy.

It is like myself, I am best at deciding if my iPod is low enough so that it doesn't damage my hearing, not some unelected eurocrat in Brussels on a six-figure salary.

[Ardemax]

are we still on about UKIP getting into power?

well they won't for some time, they're a one idea based party and that's pretty much it.

as for the Europe thing I thought it was our opinions? Not that if we disagree with undertaker, he will get to flame us.

not sure? :S

[-:Undertaker:-]

are we still on about UKIP getting into power?

well they won't for some time, they're a one idea based party and that's pretty much it.

as for the Europe thing I thought it was our opinions? Not that if we disagree with undertaker, he will get to flame us.

not sure? :S

We are on about the European Union as you know fully well, infact UKIP has only been mentioned once or twice in this thread. You yourself voted in the poll, so either you don't know what you are doing and are following what alex and co. do (as per usual) or you are trying to score points with 'smart' posts.

On Europe, alexxx debates his opinion, I may not agree with it but he backs most of it up and explains indepth his points, you on the other hand like to come into debates half way through and criticise me rather than my opinions, and when you make false statements I press you on them while you attempt to avoid them (like when you said the EU had prevented a war and when you stated that UKIP were a rascist party).

If you are going to get involved actually get involved properly, rather than hoping for alexxx and others to jump in all the time and save you.

[Ardemax]

We are on about the European Union as you know fully well, infact UKIP has only been mentioned once or twice in this thread. You yourself voted in the poll, so either you don't know what you are doing and are following what alex and co. do (as per usual) or you are trying to score points with 'smart' posts.

On Europe, alexxx debates his opinion, I may not agree with it but he backs most of it up and explains indepth his points, you on the other hand like to come into debates half way through and criticise me rather than my opinions, and when you make false statements I press you on them while you attempt to avoid them (like when you said the EU had prevented a war and when you stated that UKIP were a rascist party).

If you are going to get involved actually get involved properly, rather than hoping for alexxx and others to jump in all the time and save you.
*REMOVED*

you totally contradict yourself in that post

Edited by invincible (Forum Super Moderator): Please don't be rude to other forum members :)

[JACKTARD]

Yes, we should get the hell out. I think the EU would be useful for one thing: if there was a huge dispute against two European countries and war was to break out (like WWII). However, all European countries get along (pretty much so), so I doubt the next big war will be between two European countries.

I don't want the UK to EVER use the Euro as its currency - I am certain this will happen eventually if we stay in the EU. And I imagine many other British things will go down the drain. :(

my views exactly

[alexxxxx]

The United States is the same as the United Kingdom culturally, we both shared culture openly and continue to do so, while Europe openly shunned the US from de Gallue to Chirac. The commonwealth may not be 20 miles away from the United Kingdom, but is independant and more importantly, has a bigger trading base with more potential (especially India).

The similarities with culture between the UK and the USA stop with the language. That's simply the only thing we have in common. The UK is alot more left-wing than the USA in terms of social responsibility, economically. Our comedy is very different. When I watch US TV I have to sort of go into american-mode and some jokes are just not funny. The US are slaves to consumerism, something that hasn't quite taken grip in europe the same way. It's very ignorant to say our culture is the same as the USA because i know i'd get culture shock, infact it shocks me when i go there on holiday. The EU infact goes out of its way to protect cultural events by sponsering them in the social fund.



We managed a Empire that spanned the globe two hundred years ago, please do not tell me that being futher away from India than France is a terrible problem, especially when taking into mind that we now have planes, super-ships and all other methods of transport which the victorians lacked.
We no longer have an empire, we have maybe a 10th of the global influence we did back then. Technology has progressed, but the UK economy still outstrips the indian economy nominally.


The economy of the Soviet Union was similar to that of the European Union, both disliked trading with others outside (proved by you pointing out how Europe would impose tariffs on the United Kingdom if it dared to leave the EU) and prefers to trade within itself.
It was nothing like the EU economy.



Italy has now thrown out all of the crime ridden gypsies who were making Italians lives a misery, camps were being set up and Italy was in chaos a few months ago if you don't remember. Italy ignored the EU and threw them all out, just what we should be doing. It is simple what we want alex; immigration but controlled.

We want our key to our own front door and safe back.

The gypsies can be problematic, due to a certain number of members in their communities believing that breaking the law is somehow justified. I think ridding certain communities of crime and criminals is more effective than just moving them along.


The commission is not elected.
It is not democratic.
The European Union was not elected.
It is not democratic.
You could then say the same about the UK and France.

The house of lords is not elected
La sénate n'est pas elu
It is not democratic
The UK/French Governments were not elected
It is not democratic.



The 'parliament' of the Soviet Union also had the power technically to sack the top of the Communist Party, the Commission just like the CP holds the power aswell as being corrupt..

I found this from wikipedia, i've heard of it before but quite an interesting little fact about the European Union and its Commission;

In 2005, Nigel Farage, UKIP MEP requested that the European Commission disclose where the individual Commissioners had spent their holidays. The Commission did not provide the information requested, on the basis that the Commissioners had a right of privacy. The German newspaper Die Welt reported that the President of the European Commission, José Barroso had spent a week on the yacht of the Greek shipping billionaire Spiro Latsis. It emerged soon afterwards that this had occurred only a month before the Commission approved 10.3 million euros of Greek state aid for Latsis' shipping company.
That's true. I personally don't like jose manuel barroso, but it's a fact of life that this sort of things occur. This type of poor (almost sleazy) lobbbying occurs in the UK, USA (even more disgustingly in the USA) and probably most other developed democracies. The Parliament does have power to reject and accept, ammend european laws. The EU is not perfect and I would prefer that the comissioner is elected directly the public. But the way we do it now is not any less democratic.



Plumbers, bankers, metalworkers all make up the public. The public are best at making the decision because that is democracy, maybe you cannot see it just as many socialists before you couldn't; Lenin, Mao, Marx, Stalin, Pol Pot etc.. but that is democracy.

It is like myself, I am best at deciding if my iPod is low enough so that it doesn't damage my hearing, not some unelected eurocrat in Brussels on a six-figure salary.I have to disagree.

MEPs earn the same as MPs. £61k, but they do recieve money to cover accomodation costs whilst in Brussels and Strasbourg, plus air fares.

[-:Undertaker:-]

*REMOVED*

you totally contradict yourself in that post

How do I contradict myself? - and this time, don't ignore my post, don't go off on another subject, dont change the subject - show me where I contradict myself.


The similarities with culture between the UK and the USA stop with the language. That's simply the only thing we have in common. The UK is alot more left-wing than the USA in terms of social responsibility, economically. Our comedy is very different. When I watch US TV I have to sort of go into american-mode and some jokes are just not funny. The US are slaves to consumerism, something that hasn't quite taken grip in europe the same way. It's very ignorant to say our culture is the same as the USA because i know i'd get culture shock, infact it shocks me when i go there on holiday. The EU infact goes out of its way to protect cultural events by sponsering them in the social fund.We should sponser our own cultural insitutions rather than having a group of unelected european deciding it for us, we have little in common with Europe, Europe doesn't really like us and if we carry on this way then we will be saying goodbye to our military sovereignty. I may not agree with some wars we have been in, but I know if we carry on towards a european federal superstate then the British military will cease to have any form of independance. Europe is even more left than we are; its not accepted and we didn't wage a Cold War for 50 odd years to in the end be goverend by left wing europeans on the mainland.


We no longer have an empire, we have maybe a 10th of the global influence we did back then. Technology has progressed, but the UK economy still outstrips the indian economy nominally.
It was nothing like the EU economy.We may not have an Empire, but as usual the left always points to this as a meaning for us to surrender ourselves to a superstate. The United Kingdom was the world player soley from 1700 - 1950, the United States is now the world power and was along with the USSR from 1945 - 1991. We do not have to be a massive power to be able to trade, we have the sixth largest economy in the world.

India is where the next world boom will take place once China itself is finished/near the end, India will have a bigger population than China in the future, a bigger economy and is a democracy. India does not demand that we be ruled by them to trade with them, the same with us.

On the Soviet Union; well you cannot have it both ways. Either accept that the United Kingdom could trade perfectly fine with the EU without being a member of the EU, or accept that the EU has a closed economy - which one is it.


The gypsies can be problematic, due to a certain number of members in their communities believing that breaking the law is somehow justified. I think ridding certain communities of crime and criminals is more effective than just moving them along.
You could then say the same about the UK and France.They are all criminals, don't fool yourself over them. In parts of Liverpool where they moved in on fields, they robbed and the shops had to hire security just because of them. They make peoples lives a misery. It is not fair that in the name of some EU law that these scum are allowed to move in anywhere under the banner of human rights.


The house of lords is not elected
La sénate n'est pas elu
It is not democratic
The UK/French Governments were not elected
It is not democratic.The House of Lords needs reform yes. The UK and French governments were elected. Even if the EU was elected, would you like to tell me who elected them to even exist in the first place? - nobody did.


That's true. I personally don't like jose manuel barroso, but it's a fact of life that this sort of things occur. This type of poor (almost sleazy) lobbbying occurs in the UK, USA (even more disgustingly in the USA) and probably most other developed democracies. The Parliament does have power to reject and accept, ammend european laws. The EU is not perfect and I would prefer that the comissioner is elected directly the public. But the way we do it now is not any less democratic.You say you would want the Commissioner elected by the people, yet do not want the people to have a vote on whether they want to be a part of the EU - I thought direct democracy didn't work in your opinion?


I have to disagree.Who are the public then in you're eyes? - are they the left wing, pro-EU minority who always seem to be listened to by the government?


MEPs earn the same as MPs. £61k, but they do recieve money to cover accomodation costs whilst in Brussels and Strasbourg, plus air fares.The Commissioners of course, it is my opinion quite frankly and is true because of the number of pathetic laws and directives that get passed down that the parliament has no power and the Commission is the driving force, just like in the USSR when the CP ruled and the Soviet was a sham.

[alexxxxx]

We should sponser our own cultural insitutions rather than having a group of unelected european deciding it for us, we have little in common with Europe, Europe doesn't really like us and if we carry on this way then we will be saying goodbye to our military sovereignty. I may not agree with some wars we have been in, but I know if we carry on towards a european federal superstate then the British military will cease to have any form of independance. Europe is even more left than we are; its not accepted and we didn't wage a Cold War for 50 odd years to in the end be goverend by left wing europeans on the mainland.

Like it or not, we are europeans, just like canadians are north americans. Our history, present and future will lie in europe, whether in the EU or not, unless we for some reason float over to canada. We have as much in common with the french as the french have in common with the germans and the italians have with the polish. We have alot in common with the other member states to do with social attitudes, religion, sport, art and music. I don't want our culture and lifestyle being watered down by american-style consumerism and I want to see local music, art, cultures, buildings and traditions being protected, I couldn't care less who did it. We all have a responsibility to look after our heritage.


On the Soviet Union; well you cannot have it both ways. Either accept that the United Kingdom could trade perfectly fine with the EU without being a member of the EU, or accept that the EU has a closed economy - which one is it.

It has neither. A half open door to those who aren't in it. They don't run communist markets.


They are all criminals, don't fool yourself over them. In parts of Liverpool where they moved in on fields, they robbed and the shops had to hire security just because of them. They make peoples lives a misery. It is not fair that in the name of some EU law that these scum are allowed to move in anywhere under the banner of human rights.

I'm sure some don't commit some crimes... but it is true that trouble seems to follow them about, around here some moved in and an old lady across the street got her purse pickpocketed from a CHARITY shop. We are within our rights to reject criminals from residing in the UK who are from the mainland. I personally believe that we need to get tough on these type of people who temporarily make life hellish for a limited amount of time and then move on.



The House of Lords needs reform yes. The UK and French governments were elected. Even if the EU was elected, would you like to tell me who elected them to even exist in the first place? - nobody did.

I seriously can't see the difference.


You say you would want the Commissioner elected by the people, yet do not want the people to have a vote on whether they want to be a part of the EU - I thought direct democracy didn't work in your opinion?

That's not direct democracy, it's an elected representative.



Who are the public then in you're eyes? - are they the left wing, pro-EU minority who always seem to be listened to by the government?

No, I disagree that the general public are always in the right position to know what's best for the country.


The Commissioners of course, it is my opinion quite frankly and is true because of the number of pathetic laws and directives that get passed down that the parliament has no power and the Commission is the driving force, just like in the USSR when the CP ruled and the Soviet was a sham.

I must admit it is rather alot the comissioners get paid (€19,909.89/month). But there is only one comissioner per member state state.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Like it or not, we are europeans, just like canadians are north americans. Our history, present and future will lie in europe, whether in the EU or not, unless we for some reason float over to canada. We have as much in common with the french as the french have in common with the germans and the italians have with the polish. We have alot in common with the other member states to do with social attitudes, religion, sport, art and music. I don't want our culture and lifestyle being watered down by american-style consumerism and I want to see local music, art, cultures, buildings and traditions being protected, I couldn't care less who did it. We all have a responsibility to look after our heritage.

We are Europeans, but we are British first. We do not have to be governed by Europe, hence why two world wars were fought.

You say you couldn't care less who did it, lets do it ourselves then for a fraction of the cost.


It has neither. A half open door to those who aren't in it. They don't run communist markets.

That is a closed door policy then, by excluding/limiting trade to non-members that is closed door economics.


I seriously can't see the difference.
[B]
That's not direct democracy, it's an elected representative.

You can't have it both ways, either you want direct democracy and want a commissoner to be elected by the public (but that would also mean we have a referendum on EU membership) or you don't, which one is it. You cannot choose democracy when it suits you.


No, I disagree that the general public are always in the right position to know what's best for the country.

Well whether or not you like it, we live in a supposed democracy. The people should get the final say on important issues. The public know what is better for the United Kingdom rather than a load of european federalists in whitehall and Brussels.


I must admit it is rather alot the comissioners get paid (€19,909.89/month). But there is only one comissioner per member state state.

The EU audit books also haven't been checked, its more corrupt than Zimbabwe and I genuinely believe that and the unbelievable thing is that we are still the dopes who are hated by Europe anyway, who keep paying them!

[alexxxxx]

We are Europeans, but we are British first. We do not have to be governed by Europe, hence why two world wars were fought.

You say you couldn't care less who did it, lets do it ourselves then for a fraction of the cost.

We were fighting 2 world wars to prevent being taken over by totalarian nazi regime. Not the EU.


That is a closed door policy then, by excluding/limiting trade to non-members that is closed door economics.

Well then yes, they are. Just like the USA and pretty much every developed nation.



You can't have it both ways, either you want direct democracy and want a commissoner to be elected by the public (but that would also mean we have a referendum on EU membership) or you don't, which one is it. You cannot choose democracy when it suits you.

Electing a representative isn't direct democracy. Just like parliament isn't a direct democracy.



Well whether or not you like it, we live in a supposed democracy. The people should get the final say on important issues. The public know what is better for the United Kingdom rather than a load of european federalists in whitehall and Brussels.

The EU audit books also haven't been checked, its more corrupt than Zimbabwe and I genuinely believe that and the unbelievable thing is that we are still the dopes who are hated by Europe anyway, who keep paying them!
Such a common misconception that we are hated by the rest of europe. We really aren't. The EU has been audited but it's books haven't been signed off in a while. That's a worry and should be addressed.

[Ardemax]

How do I contradict myself? - and this time, don't ignore my post, don't go off on another subject, dont change the subject - show me where I contradict myself.



i've answered your ******* questions you just don't accept them and still push on with your "invincible" mode of being un-touchable.

seriously you tell me that i target you, but are you really doing the same?

[-:Undertaker:-]

We were fighting 2 world wars to prevent being taken over by totalarian nazi regime. Not the EU.

We fought two world wars to stop a totalaterian regime yes, and we fought it for the core principle of a free and democratic europe for independant nations, to stop europe becoming one nation under one flag.


Well then yes, they are. Just like the USA and pretty much every developed nation.

..so therefore you have just admitted the open-market/free-market doesn't exist and that the only aim of the EU is to become a federal superstate.


Electing a representative isn't direct democracy. Just like parliament isn't a direct democracy.

If you elect a MP that is direct democracy.
If you elect a commissioner that is direct democracy.
If you vote to be part of the EU that is direct democracy.


Such a common misconception that we are hated by the rest of europe. We really aren't. The EU has been audited but it's books haven't been signed off in a while. That's a worry and should be addressed.

The European Union does not like us, just like when Tony Blair surrendered out EU rebate for France to 'review' the CAP. Then of course as soon as he handed the money over France and the EU said no, but then again I don't blame them, they make it so obvious they don't like us and the United States but still continue to accept our money, I would aswell.


i've answered your ******* questions you just don't accept them and still push on with your "invincible" mode of being un-touchable.

seriously you tell me that i target you, but are you really doing the same?

Answer my question.

How do I contradict myself in that post?

[Ardemax]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

ive answered what was your question in that post: you tell me that i target you and everything but you've also been doing the same.

would you like me to make the font bigger next time

[GommeInc]

*REMOVED*

you totally contradict yourself in that post

Edited by invincible (Forum Super Moderator): Please don't be rude to other forum members :)
You've kinda proven his fact to be honest, he asked your four beliefs and opinions on the EU, and in answer to that you appear to have just insulted him, rather than agreed to share your thoughts. He also mentioned you come in half way through discussions insulting him rather than finding any evidence or giving your verdict... Guess what you did in response? Insult him :P

You're only opinion(s) on the EU seem to be small but relevant answers, like free trading, butthat;sall you say, you never discuss why it's beneficial and whether or not paying the EU millions of pounds justifies "free" trade. So you can see why Undertaker targets you, as you seem to go quiet for a long time, and when you return you just play the "ignore" the target game, rather than give an opinion of your own, or answer the questions :P You seem to just rely on alexxxx, which isn't very useful, especially asyouseem to answer to Undertaker, not alexxx himself :/

[Ardemax]

thing is Gomme, although your point is valid hes been on about answering his question, so I have, yet he still go's on that I haven't...

[-:Undertaker:-]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

ive answered what was your question in that post: you tell me that i target you and everything but you've also been doing the same.

would you like me to make the font bigger next time

I 'target' you because it takes numerous posts to get an answer out of you, so since you are in the mood for answering now maybe now you would like to answer to Wigs' post in this thread; http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=612396&page=4

[alexxxxx]

..so therefore you have just admitted the open-market/free-market doesn't exist and that the only aim of the EU is to become a federal superstate.
It exists between EEA members and certain others where free trade has been agreed with.



If you elect a MP that is direct democracy.
If you elect a commissioner that is direct democracy.
If you vote to be part of the EU that is direct democracy.
No it's not, only the latter is 'direct democracy' the other 2 are represntative democracy. Which is what we have in the first case and would be preferable to have in the seond case.


The European Union does not like us, just like when Tony Blair surrendered out EU rebate for France to 'review' the CAP. Then of course as soon as he handed the money over France and the EU said no, but then again I don't blame them, they make it so obvious they don't like us and the United States but still continue to accept our money, I would aswell.
The European Union does like us, otherwise we would never have been allowed to join in the first place. Everyone is looking out for number one at the end of the day however destructive it is in the long run.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It exists between EEA members and certain others where free trade has been agreed with.

..then that is a trade pact, not free trade.


No it's not, only the latter is 'direct democracy' the other 2 are represntative democracy. Which is what we have.

No come on now, you do not want a referendum on the European Union because you know the people here and across Europe would vote it down don't you? - you say we should vote in general elections rather than a referendum if we want to leave the EU, but nobody ever asked us if we wanted to be in the European Union.


The European Union does like us, otherwise we would never have been allowed to join in the first place. Everyone is looking out for number one at the end of the day however destructive it is in the long run.

That is an interesting statement, is that why the United Kingdom is one of the biggest contributors to the European Union yet recieves little in return apart from a whole barrage of laws from the European Union every year which costs billions to implement and cost business money and time?

..was Tony Blair 'looking out for number one' when he signed away little money we did get in return?

[hah]

we get all your money, everything in ireland has them "Funded by EU signs" LOL

[danw2009]

The EU has its benefits, but like everything, it also has its drawbacks.

[Wig44.]

The EU is an up and coming supra-nation.

Should we be a part of it because of that? No.

alexxxxx, I think your comment: 'The European Union does like us, otherwise we would never have been allowed to join in the first place. Everyone is looking out for number one at the end of the day however destructive it is in the long run' is wrong but to each their own. You have a sugar-coated view of the EU if that's still how you are thinking, it is very possible that we are part of the EU because of our huge contributions and that the UK is used, not respected.

Is it just a matter of time before we become assimilated? I don't think so, but I do think we need to get ourselves out of debt instead of pouring money into the EU, close our borders and bring power back to the people we vote for. This is a democracy, no?

[Ardemax]

ok undertaker, ill answer his question:

"what benefits were you talking about?"

think about it, if the UK left the EU we'd be sitting on our dud.

didn't the Independent publish what are the benefits of the EU?

ok lemme think of one on the top of my head, the EU controls what each country can do, and what laws it can make, am i right? as in the sense that they can't persecute people, they must be fair, am i right?


cheaper phone calls! that's always a bonus, and the death penalty is prohibited, which is humane.

anything else you'd like me to answer?

[Wig44.]

ok undertaker, ill answer his question:

"what benefits were you talking about?"

think about it, if the UK left the EU we'd be sitting on our dud.

didn't the Independent publish what are the benefits of the EU?

ok lemme think of one on the top of my head, the EU controls what each country can do, and what laws it can make, am i right? as in the sense that they can't persecute people, they must be fair, am i right?


cheaper phone calls! that's always a bonus, and the death penalty is prohibited, which is humane.

anything else you'd like me to answer?


Capital punishment would never be legalised in Britain even if we weren't in the EU.

Cheaper phone calls? What about billions of taxpayer money not being spent poured into the EU?

And you are saying that the laws must be fair because all member states have them? That is not true. We are NOT the same as every other member state and the laws being set by the EU are unwanted here, regardless of whether others have to suffer them.

[ifuseekamy]

The only pro of the EU is free trade. Everything else is negligible or a con. Aside from free trade we're paying continental Europe tens of billions of £ for some restrictive health and safety regulations.

[-:Undertaker:-]

ok undertaker, ill answer his question:

Cool, thanks.


"what benefits were you talking about?"

think about it, if the UK left the EU we'd be sitting on our dud.

There are 150+ nations in this world that are also sitting on their 'dud' and many of those do not have the sixth largest economy in the world.


ok lemme think of one on the top of my head, the EU controls what each country can do, and what laws it can make, am i right? as in the sense that they can't persecute people, they must be fair, am i right?

You think being controlled by a undemocratic and unelected organisation that the majority of Europe does not want and did not ask for is fair?


cheaper phone calls! that's always a bonus, and the death penalty is prohibited, which is humane.Cheaper phone calls are coming anyway, thats part of a global economy - as things get older it becomes cheaper, nothing to do with the European Union. On the death penalty you are wrong, the European Unions Lisbon Treaty actually has a clause which allows the death penalty to be used.


anything else you'd like me to answer?

Yes, i'd like a good response to what i've just wrote.

[Ardemax]

Cool, thanks.



There are 150+ nations in this world that are also sitting on their 'dud' and many of those do not have the sixth largest economy in the world

which is why the UK shouldn't be on its' own, keeping in with Europe for trade benefits


You think being controlled by a undemocratic and unelected organisation that the majority of Europe does not want and did not ask for is fair?

Cheaper phone calls are coming anyway, thats part of a global economy - as things get older it becomes cheaper, nothing to do with the European Union. On the death penalty you are wrong, the European Unions Lisbon Treaty actually has a clause which allows the death penalty to be used.

I don't think undemocratic and unelected would be fair, although they were unelected, we still managed to vote for the EEC. I think the EU is democratic, surely if it wasn't, our MEP's would be turned away?

However with the death penatly on the new Lisbon Treaty, I'll agree with you, I think it's wrong.

[-:Undertaker:-]

which is why the UK shouldn't be on its' own, keeping in with Europe for trade benefits

Where are these benefits?

We pay more in than we get out.
We don't need to be locked in a trade club.
The UK economy is far big enough to trade and be independant.




I don't think undemocratic and unelected would be fair, although they were unelected, we still managed to vote for the EEC. I think the EU is democratic, surely if it wasn't, our MEP's would be turned away?

The European Economic Community was a economic community, not a European political, social and economic union.

The British people have NEVER been asked if they want to be a part of the European Union.

However with the death penatly on the new Lisbon Treaty, I'll agree with you, I think it's wrong.[/QUOTE]

..then why did you say the EU prohibits the death penalty, if anything it makes it more likely to be used now.

[Ardemax]

^ meant to add before the lisbon treaty

the european union today is still more economical and at the answer to what wars EU has stopped, well seeing how there's been none between 2 eu countries since the EU was set up then I think it's worked

btw NATO stopped the USSR on a storm because NATO is a military based organisation

but would anyone agree on the death penatly? i know some friends that actually do

[-:Undertaker:-]

^ meant to add before the lisbon treaty

the european union today is still more economical and at the answer to what wars EU has stopped, well seeing how there's been none between 2 eu countries since the EU was set up then I think it's worked

btw NATO stopped the USSR on a storm because NATO is a military based organisation

but would anyone agree on the death penatly? i know some friends that actually do

You can't say something has worked because a very vague war has not occured, because infact, there have been wars in Europe since the EU was set up in the 90s. On the topic of the death penalty, i'm personally in favour of it and I would like a referendum on it to be held in the United Kingdom; however, it is up to my people and my government to make that choice, not the European Union.

[Ardemax]

What wars are those Undertaker?

[Ajthedragon]

Yeah, they're the reason that we have so much tax's on gas and petrol, they're the reason why fruit became so expensive, and they're the reason (and Gordon Brown) we're at the heart of an immigration scandal.

[Ontario]

Wow i can't believe the amount of people who said yes.

Of course NO!
The UK doesn't need to leave. People are so scared that this Lisbon treaty will mean the end of our country's independence which is absolute crap.

The UK doesn't need to be in the EU to be successful but its certainly makes it easier for our country to have a say on the world platform.

[Wig44.]

Wow i can't believe the amount of people who said yes.

Of course NO!
The UK doesn't need to leave. People are so scared that this Lisbon treaty will mean the end of our country's independence which is absolute crap.

The UK doesn't need to be in the EU to be successful but its certainly makes it easier for our country to have a say on the world platform.

But being in the EU has the totally opposite effect - we do not have more of a say. We have far less of a say and I'm afraid it is a fact that our government is powerless to stop unelected brussels bureaucrats now. The EU is centralised and undemocratic.

Ardemax: Slovenian War 1991, Kosovo War 1998-1999, Bosnian War 1992-1995 and the Croatian War of Independence 1991-1995. And this is just in the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

[Ardemax]

if it was so un-democratic then surely it wouldn't have a european parliament

[Wig44.]

if it was so un-democratic then surely it wouldn't have a european parliament

Besides having 84% of our laws set by bureaucrats in Brussels who we haven't voted for, with our government being powerless to stop them, the EU is a post-democratic organisation. Even when you still have a vote it is devalued.

[Pyroka]

I think the mistake people make in the whole EU thing, is that its like how Nazi Germany tried to invade countries to make it one huge state. EU are doing exactly the same thing, except theyre going for it at a different angle. The methods are different but in the end the result is gonna be the same.

Bleh blummin EU, id rather be out of it but most of the fatcats would like to just sit in their chairs getting paid a bomb for the EU to steer their country. I mean you're getting your job done for you right? Thats why Labour wont exit... Theyd rather sit on their arses doing nothing and getting paid whilst the EU flies around with their crappy laws. I mean for gods sake, sound restrictions? >.> It's gonna be more like a health and safety state, horrible.

EU just have to make one wrong decision though, just one to piss a country off then all the others will be like ***, thus alienating and kaboom no more EU yay. Can you tell I dont do much politics? LOL.

[Wig44.]

I think the mistake people make in the whole EU thing, is that its like how Nazi Germany tried to invade countries to make it one huge state. EU are doing exactly the same thing, except theyre going for it at a different angle. The methods are different but in the end the result is gonna be the same.

Bleh blummin EU, id rather be out of it but most of the fatcats would like to just sit in their chairs getting paid a bomb for the EU to steer their country. I mean you're getting your job done for you right? Thats why Labour wont exit... Theyd rather sit on their arses doing nothing and getting paid whilst the EU flies around with their crappy laws. I mean for gods sake, sound restrictions? >.> It's gonna be more like a health and safety state, horrible.

EU just have to make one wrong decision though, just one to piss a country off then all the others will be like ***, thus alienating and kaboom no more EU yay. Can you tell I dont do much politics? LOL.

In the UK's case, 'they' have pissed us off a lot of times witha lot of silly decisions. Nothing happened though.

[Pyroka]

In the UK's case, 'they' have pissed us off a lot of times witha lot of silly decisions. Nothing happened though.

Not Gordon Brown though, cuz he gets paid lotso money and hardly any blame :eusa_danc

[-:Undertaker:-]

What wars are those Undertaker?

Slovenian War 1991, Kosovo War 1998-1999, Bosnian War 1992-1995 and the Croatian War of Independence 1991-1995. (as Wig posted)


Wow i can't believe the amount of people who said yes.

Of course NO!
The UK doesn't need to leave. People are so scared that this Lisbon treaty will mean the end of our country's independence which is absolute crap.

The UK doesn't need to be in the EU to be successful but its certainly makes it easier for our country to have a say on the world platform.

The Treaty does mark the end of the United Kingdom and independance, David Cameron may not admit to it freely because his 'cast-iron' promise might of melted away, but we're not being fooled/lied to again - there will never be another treaty on the European Union, Lisbon is self-amending.

..and now the march to a superstate is nearly complete.


But being in the EU has the totally opposite effect - we do not have more of a say. We have far less of a say and I'm afraid it is a fact that our government is powerless to stop unelected brussels bureaucrats now. The EU is centralised and undemocratic.

Ardemax: Slovenian War 1991, Kosovo War 1998-1999, Bosnian War 1992-1995 and the Croatian War of Independence 1991-1995. And this is just in the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Thank you.


if it was so un-democratic then surely it wouldn't have a european parliament

The European Parliament has no real powers and the Commission (unelected) is the one pushing all the buttons.

[alexxxxx]

The European Parliament has no real powers and the Commission (unelected) is the one pushing all the buttons.
that's not true.

[-:Undertaker:-]

that's not true.

The laws come from the Commission, if a company such as BA and Iberia wish to merge they have to have the permission of the Commission. The Commission has the power. In the past you have said that a referendum was not needed on Lisbon because it was not such a big treaty, yet the other day you said the President of the Commission should be elected - so if the Commission does not have much power then why do you want a vote on that post but not the Lisbon Treaty?

[Ardemax]

Slovenian War 1991, Kosovo War 1998-1999, Bosnian War 1992-1995 and the Croatian War of Independence 1991-1995. (as Wig posted)


Slovenian war - 10 days - big whoop. Besides, the EU wasn't properly formed until 92.

Kosovo war - it was between NATO and Yugoslav, not two european countries.

With the Bosnian War - the UN and NATO intervened.

The Croatian War of Independence was a complex war, the UN tried to intervene but without much luck, the EU was still in the early stages of it's modern formation so it wouldn't have done a lot by then in terms of negotiations.

So today (in the last 5-10 years) have there been any European wars? (Between 2 European countries?)

[-:Undertaker:-]

Slovenian war - 10 days - big whoop. Besides, the EU wasn't properly formed until 92. - A war in Europe.


Kosovo war - it was between NATO and Yugoslav, not two european countries. - A war in Europe.


With the Bosnian War - the UN and NATO intervened. - A war in Europe.


The Croatian War of Independence was a complex war, the UN tried to intervene but without much luck, the EU was still in the early stages of it's modern formation so it wouldn't have done a lot by then in terms of negotiations. - A war in Europe.


So today (in the last 5-10 years) have there been any European wars? (Between 2 European countries?)

Russia V Georgia.

..so what wars has the EU prevented again?

[Ardemax]

i think you ignored my comments there

first of all, the EU nowadays was setup in 92

did these wars rage through europe???????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????? no

and answer my question

thanx

[-:Undertaker:-]

You did not say the wars had to 'rage' through Europe, because in truth there will never be another conventional war between world powers ever again, world war II was the last ever world war that would and will be fought without nuclear weapons. (see MAD)

I did answer the question; Russian Federation attacking Georgian breakaway regions.

[Ardemax]

Actually the EU came to an agreement to stop the fighting just before 2 weeks.

Are there any others?

And yes I did say the wars had to rage through Europe, ill get the quote if you want (from previous threads when i was talking about the EU preventing wars).

[-:Undertaker:-]

The European Union did not stop the fighting, by that time the Russian Federation had taken South Ossetia and the other region, there was nothing to stop and still, those regions remain under Russian control. The EU did jack all.

Chechen War
Kosovo War
Bosnian War
..more here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe#1989-2000).

On the final point, we are not talking about other threads. In this discussion you said "have there been any European wars?" when I answered this you then changed the question to "did these wars rage through europe?"

[Ardemax]

The European Union did not stop the fighting, by that time the Russian Federation had taken South Ossetia and the other region, there was nothing to stop and still, those regions remain under Russian control. The EU did jack all.

Chechen War
Kosovo War
Bosnian War
..more here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe#1989-2000).

On the final point, we are not talking about other threads. In this discussion you said "have there been any European wars?" when I answered this you then changed the question to "did these wars rage through europe?"

I thought you took on board previous questions from other threads, obviously not.

Btw I said wars in the last 5-10 years, and the Russian war on the bottom was part of the USSR when it split.

And yes the French presidency of the EU helped reach agreements.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I thought you took on board previous questions from other threads, obviously not.

Btw I said wars in the last 5-10 years, and the Russian war on the bottom was part of the USSR when it split.

And yes the French presidency of the EU helped reach agreements.


I gave just provided a list of wars which have occured since 1989, the USSR split in 1991 and there are many wars that have happened (as you can see on that list) since 25 December 1991. On the French Presidency, those parts of Georgia are still under Russian occupation, the Georgian army was crippled and was forced to retreat - what did the EU stop/solve exactly?

[Ardemax]

Helped make an agreement to stop the fighting?

And I told you the EU today was just about established in 92.

[-:Undertaker:-]

1992 - 2009, if you look on that list there are wars after 1992. On the agreement, no they did not. The Georgian army was battered and destroyed and was forced to retreat to Tiblisi because it appeared as if the Russians were going to advance to the capital, but they never.

The Russians only signed the EUs' pathetic treaty AFTER they had taken the regions they had aimed to take, so much for stopping wars.

[alexxxxx]

The laws come from the Commission, if a company such as BA and Iberia wish to merge they have to have the permission of the Commission. The Commission has the power. In the past you have said that a referendum was not needed on Lisbon because it was not such a big treaty, yet the other day you said the President of the Commission should be elected - so if the Commission does not have much power then why do you want a vote on that post but not the Lisbon Treaty?

it's wrong to claim that the parliament holds no power because it's not true. The comission carries out the laws that which are proposed in the comission and then sent to strasbourg to be voted on. The comission is already safeguarded by the fact that it 1) is appointed by the council (which is of the heads of all the national governments), (2) can be sacked by the parliament, (3) has to be approved by the parliament.

i think that it would be beneficial for the EU to seem more democratic if our comissioner was elected, but the problem is that the job of a comissioner is to look after EU, not national interests. Likewise with the parliament. Putting an anti-EU comissioner in place only breaks up ties and harms work. The removal of britain from the EU has to be taken in national governments, not EU governments. Voting for UKIP in the european elections only really dampens our say, voting for UKIP in national elections would be the only way of working.

BA and Iberia have to convince the comission (NOT the 27 comissioners, but the civil service that looks after the laws) that their takeover is not going to destroy competitiion in a european-wide market that is working very well in driving the cost down.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You talk about democracy, however the people of the United Kingdom were not given a vote ever, on whether we want to be members of the European Union. Until you accept this and the fact that we need a say, then you cant claim the European Union is democratic or that it should be democratic (internally).

This is the underlaying point, and we could argue forever on whether we should or should not be members and we'd never agree, however that debate needs to take place because we've never ever had that chance to discuss it.

[Ardemax]

1992 - 2009, if you look on that list there are wars after 1992. On the agreement, no they did not. The Georgian army was battered and destroyed and was forced to retreat to Tiblisi because it appeared as if the Russians were going to advance to the capital, but they never.

The Russians only signed the EUs' pathetic treaty AFTER they had taken the regions they had aimed to take, so much for stopping wars.


I've answered most of the war-related questions, but today there's only like 1-2 wars in the past 5ish years in Europe?

surely that's an improvement?

[alexxxxx]

You talk about democracy, however the people of the United Kingdom were not given a vote ever, on whether we want to be members of the European Union. Until you accept this and the fact that we need a say, then you cant claim the European Union is democratic or that it should be democratic (internally).

This is the underlaying point, and we could argue forever on whether we should or should not be members and we'd never agree, however that debate needs to take place because we've never ever had that chance to discuss it.

yes, it will rage on forever because you can't grasp the fact that a parliament can make decisions on behalf of the electorate and this is democratic. or otherwise every single law that is passed, using your argument, is undemocratic because 'we never had a vote on it.'

[-:Undertaker:-]

I've answered most of the war-related questions, but today there's only like 1-2 wars in the past 5ish years in Europe?

surely that's an improvement?

No that is not an improvement, and as I said before; the EU has not solved/stopped wars in Europe.


yes, it will rage on forever because you can't grasp the fact that a parliament can make decisions on behalf of the electorate and this is democratic. or otherwise every single law that is passed, using your argument, is undemocratic because 'we never had a vote on it.'

Actually no, because a normal law does not create over 84% of our laws and lead to the abolition of the United Kingdom and the creation of the European Union.

[Ardemax]

I also talked about the prevention of wars.
And seeing as there's been what, 1 in the past 5-8 years?

Compared with the 90's, I think there has been an improvement.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I also talked about the prevention of wars.
And seeing as there's been what, 1 in the past 5-8 years?

Compared with the 90's, I think there has been an improvement.

..so what wars has the EU prevented?

[Ardemax]

..so what wars has the EU prevented?

What wars have the EU needed to prevent in the last 5-8 years? Apart from the 1 you said.

[alexxxxx]

Actually no, because a normal law does not create over 84% of our laws and lead to the abolition of the United Kingdom and the creation of the European Union.

it's a treaty. the abolition of the united kingdom will not take place and the european union has been around for 17 years.

[Wig44.]

What wars have the EU needed to prevent in the last 5-8 years? Apart from the 1 you said.

No that's an evasive answer and you know it. Answer him, what laws has the EU prevented?

[Ardemax]

No that's an evasive answer and you know it. Answer him, what laws has the EU prevented?

I think you mean wars? Well if you've read my previous posts I've said how the EU has kept outbreaks of fighting down, ok fine, in the early stages of the modern EU there were a few wars, but that was it.

The last 5 years has only had 1 war (which atm only undertaker thought of), and I asked if there were any more?

[-:Undertaker:-]

it's a treaty. the abolition of the united kingdom will not take place and the european union has been around for 17 years.

The treaty is self-amending, the European Union will now have a legal identity with a role on the world stage, it already makes 84% of our laws. The United Kingdom does not exist, its merely a satelitte state.

We want a say.


I think you mean wars? Well if you've read my previous posts I've said how the EU has kept outbreaks of fighting down, ok fine, in the early stages of the modern EU there were a few wars, but that was it.

The last 5 years has only had 1 war (which atm only undertaker thought of), and I asked if there were any more?

Europe is not the same as it was 80 years ago, 150 years ago or 500 years ago. This is thanks to NATO and the British/American NATO scheme that was set up, not the European Union.

[Ardemax]

The treaty is self-amending, the European Union will now have a legal identity with a role on the world stage, it already makes 84% of our laws. The United Kingdom does not exist, its merely a satelitte state.

We want a say.



Europe is not the same as it was 80 years ago, 150 years ago or 500 years ago. This is thanks to NATO and the British/American NATO scheme that was set up, not the European Union.


I'm sorry but that didn't answer my question.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm sorry but that didn't answer my question.

http://www.iaza.com/work/091123C/europewars53103.bmp

[Ardemax]

So between 2 or more EU countries there are... 2?

(btw I did say between 2 EU countries previously).

[-:Undertaker:-]

You and others have stated that the European Union has prevented wars in Europe and that the European Union has secured peace in Europe, well evidently from what I have just shown that has turned out to be totally false.

[Ardemax]

You and others have stated that the European Union has prevented wars in Europe and that the European Union has secured peace in Europe, well evidently from what I have just shown that has turned out to be totally false.

Again with the ignoring.

I said between 2 European countries and I've found 2 in your little graph thing.

[Wig44.]

Again with the ignoring.

I said between 2 European countries and I've found 2 in your little graph thing.

You seriously think that just because a war is between one country in Europe and and countries outside of Europe that the EU would/should ignore it? If countries in Europe are going to war with ANY country the EU should be trying to stop the war.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Again with the ignoring.

I said between 2 European countries and I've found 2 in your little graph thing.

Oh so on a technicality now, because the wars have been between one European country and another country outside of Europe that means it doesn't matter?

..so what wars has the European Union prevented?

[Firehorse]

its a dictatorship. The only people who can vote for the european president are the country leaders.

Also we never voted to be a part of the eu in the first place, the government said yes without even having a national vote - so much for democracy!

[Eoin]

ahhh the great british economic union. out of date and still protecting the rich + denying the poor.

[-:Undertaker:-]

ahhh the great british economic union. out of date and still protecting the rich + denying the poor.

We are not talking about the United Kingdom although as a nationalist it might interest you on the subject of the United Kingdom - the English pay for the Northern Irish, Scottish and the Welsh.