Don't increase post count in Welcome forum

[Chippiewill]

It has got to be one of the silliest things ever, here's some reasons why Post counts should not increase in the Welcome Forum:

The user can spam their way out of post moderating
Why on earth should people have their post count increase for writing "Welcome to HabboxForum <insert username here>, I hope you enjoy this community" in every thread in there. I can understand welcoming people but not for post count...

Thread closed by invincible (Forum Super Moderator): as it's turning into a very circular argument, all the necessary points have been made and it's now in managements hands.

[Hecktix]

True dat.

Good suggestion.

[Pyroka]

They arent anymore? Well so I thought...

DOUBLE TRUE!

[Inseriousity.]

Encourages older members to post? Even if it is such a boring and repetitive reponse, it is a response and when people keep harping on about being friendly with new members, it's encouraging to know that they are at least getting some attention from older members (even if they are doing it for their own motives - higher post count).

[Meanies]

I thought it would've been disabled anyway, but yeah it is pretty pointless. If posts count in there they should count in spam

[Pyroka]

Innit blad, people d o use that forum for getting their post count up, I'm guilty of it and Im sure many members may admit to it in the past.

[xxMATTGxx]

If people can't get their post count up in that forum, it would mean they would have to post in other sections across the forum. So maybe it should be turned off, I will put it to the update thread and see what other Management think of it. :)

[-:Undertaker:-]

Why, at a time when the forum is in decline and Habbox itself is in decline, are we trying to introduce measures that will cause a reduction in posts?

Talk about trying to shoot yourself in the foot.

[Hecktix]

Why, at a time when the forum is in decline and Habbox itself is in decline, are we trying to introduce measures that will cause a reduction in posts?

Talk about trying to shoot yourself in the foot.

It would mean users post elsewhere than the welcome forum to get their posts...

Good thing if you ask me :rolleyes:

[xxMATTGxx]

Why, at a time when the forum is in decline and Habbox itself is in decline, are we trying to introduce measures that will cause a reduction in posts?

Talk about trying to shoot yourself in the foot.

Well if all they are going to do is post in the welcome,e forum, then that's pretty pointless to me? Surely it should encourage them to post else where on the forum.

[jackass]

Why are you treating post count as some sort of magical money-making resource? It merely counts how many posts you have made, so why would you disable it for a random forum?

Makes no sense whatsoever.

[Chippiewill]

Why, at a time when the forum is in decline and Habbox itself is in decline, are we trying to introduce measures that will cause a reduction in posts?

Talk about trying to shoot yourself in the foot.

Oh yes, of course, having the entire forum post all day in the Welcome forum would be OHHH so much better :rolleyes:.


Why are you treating post count as some sort of magical money-making resource? It merely counts how many posts you have made, so why would you disable it for a random forum?

Makes no sense whatsoever.

People can post their way out of post moderation for one.. as I have already pointed out is effectively letting Spammers onto the forum.

[Inseriousity.]

People can post their way out of post moderation for one.. as I have already pointed out is effectively letting Spammers onto the forum.

I'm under the impression that it was meant to stop bots or whatever they're called. Naturally members will want to get out of the 5 post rule as soon as possible and we shouldn't be making it harder for them!

It may encourage them to post elsewhere, it may encourage them to not bother posting at all.

[Seatherny]

I say disable it. A majority of people who post in there do it to increase their post count.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It would mean users post elsewhere than the welcome forum to get their posts...

Good thing if you ask me :rolleyes:

You would think that wouldn't you, the fact is that people see that forum as a quick way to get their post counts up, whereas other topics take time and thought to put in a proper reply - which a lot of people don't have the time or interest to do.


Well if all they are going to do is post in the welcome,e forum, then that's pretty pointless to me? Surely it should encourage them to post else where on the forum.

As above.


Why are you treating post count as some sort of magical money-making resource? It merely counts how many posts you have made, so why would you disable it for a random forum?

Makes no sense whatsoever.

I agree, its as if we want everyone on Habbox Forum to have low post counts, and at a time when posting is in decline they are trying to futher limit posting?? :S


Oh yes, of course, having the entire forum post all day in the Welcome forum would be OHHH so much better :rolleyes:.

People can post their way out of post moderation for one.. as I have already pointed out is effectively letting Spammers onto the forum.

Are the whole forum solely posting in that forum now? - no they are not. Let people choose where they want to post instead of having limits on every single little thing.


I say disable it. A majority of people who post in there do it to increase their post count.

..is that against forum rules all of a sudden?

[xxMATTGxx]

You would think that wouldn't you, the fact is that people see that forum as a quick way to get their post counts up, whereas other topics take time and thought to put in a proper reply - which a lot of people don't have the time or interest to do.



As above.



I agree, its as if we want everyone on Habbox Forum to have low post counts, and at a time when posting is in decline they are trying to futher limit posting?? :S



Are the whole forum solely posting in that forum now? - no they are not. Let people choose where they want to post instead of having limits on every single little thing.



..is that against forum rules all of a sudden?

It isn't against the forum rules but if a person says "Welcome to the forums, enjoy your stay" in like most of the new threads. Then that isn't allowed.

[Seatherny]

You would think that wouldn't you, the fact is that people see that forum as a quick way to get their post counts up, whereas other topics take time and thought to put in a proper reply - which a lot of people don't have the time or interest to do.



As above.



I agree, its as if we want everyone on Habbox Forum to have low post counts, and at a time when posting is in decline they are trying to futher limit posting?? :S



Are the whole forum solely posting in that forum now? - no they are not. Let people choose where they want to post instead of having limits on every single little thing.



..is that against forum rules all of a sudden?

You know, I have read many threads over the last few weeks, and all you do is post negatively EVERY TIME.
I never said its against the rules so stop presuming things.
Post count should represent posts made which actually contribute to discussions. Proper discussions. They show how active a user is. I find it hard to explain, but it shows how much people contribute to GOOD (discussions etc) threads. There are people who only post in the Welcome forum to get their post count up so they look good.


You would think that wouldn't you, the fact is that people see that forum as a quick way to get their post counts up, whereas other topics take time and thought to put in a proper reply - which a lot of people don't have the time or interest to do.

So there you are admitting that people only post in the Welcome Forum to get their post count up?

[Chippiewill]

Heyaaa welcome :) x


Welcome to the forum have fun and stay active. Your english is really good by the way :)


Welcome back to the forum on your new account, try to remember your pass and username nxt time lol ;P


Heyaa welcome to the forum :) x


Umm welcome to the forum
banned allready :O


Heyaa welcome to the forum :) xx


Hey welcome to the forum :D Stay active :) x


There are a lot of other people who have done the same as well. (Including some staff)
I don't mind people saying hello to the new user, but they should be positive about it and not just upping post count.

[Geraint]

Might aswell not have a post count.

[Chippiewill]

Might aswell not have a post count.
Under what logic? Under yours you may aswell reinstate spam and forum games as post count risers.

[Seatherny]

There are a lot of other people who have done the same as well. (Including some staff)
I don't mind people saying hello to the new user, but they should be positive about it and not just upping post count.

I was about to use the same example. Its not just her, there are so many more its unbelievable. The fact is, if they honestly wanted to welcome new members, they would continue to do so even if the post count was disabled.

[Geraint]

Under what logic? Under yours you may aswell reinstate spam and forum games as post count risers.

Well, it means **** all so I don't see why not.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It isn't against the forum rules but if a person says "Welcome to the forums, enjoy your stay" in like most of the new threads. Then that isn't allowed.

I don't see why not, they are welcoming the person and unless they know the person in question then theres not much they can say. In that case then, the welcome and goodbye forum (which is for welcoming people and saying goodbye to people) is worthless, it has no point to it. If somebody signs up, and if I was signing up, I know i'd rather have 10+ hellos than just one or two.


You know, I have read many threads over the last few weeks, and all you do is post negatively EVERY TIME.
I never said its against the rules so stop presuming things.
Post count should represent posts made which actually contribute to discussions. Proper discussions. They show how active a user is. I find it hard to explain, but it shows how much people contribute to GOOD (discussions etc) threads. There are people who only post in the Welcome forum to get their post count up so they look good.

So there you are admitting that people only post in the Welcome Forum to get their post count up?

I do not see how i'm posting negatively, am I now allowed an opinion? - In a debate like we do, my opinion will seem negative to yours because our political stances are different. In the case of this thread, I want Habbox to do good - and I don't see how going back to tactics that remind me of past regimes on Habbox is going to help the forum or Habbox in question.

This 'issue' thats been brought up seems to of been brought up for the sake of it, personally I do not post in that forum but I really disagree with people installing rules/regulations for the sake of it, especially when it could hurt the forum.


There are a lot of other people who have done the same as well. (Including some staff)
I don't mind people saying hello to the new user, but they should be positive about it and not just upping post count.

I haven't seen anybody posting a negative hello?


Might aswell not have a post count.

Totally agreed, its almost like a crime on here to have people posting a lot it seems, theres a stigma attached. Any other forum would welcome people posting a lot, because it means a more active forum, people spending more time online and people putting more effort into their forum account because they have spent a lot of time on it.

[kk.]

Under what logic? Under yours you may aswell reinstate spam and forum games as post count risers.

and have you seen how many posts there have been in forum games since?

You should be welcoming people, which the example of ambz showed. it was different everytime, welcoming and friendly which new people would need.

If this happens then i think that in the near future, the forum will close.. not just because of that, but because of everything thats happened. People know that hxf is failing recently, and thats for a reason

[FlyingJesus]

This was suggested aaaaaaages ago back when everyone was arguing about post count in forum games, we were given the reason "their posts will make people feel welcomed so even a generic copied welcome message is considered a good post" or something to that degree. True enough yes, but when it's abused to the point of people getting hundreds of posts a week just in welcoming threads it is an issue that needs looking into and I'd be all for having the post count removed in that section. As mentioned it should also help to make new members branch out into other areas of the forum.

@Dan, the idea is to have good posts not just lots of them. My welcoming thread was the old spam crew warning me about how Stephen. got his *** out on cam to Clarissa which meant a lot more than "Hiiiiii enjoy your stay :) xxx" 20 times

[-:Undertaker:-]

This was suggested aaaaaaages ago back when everyone was arguing about post count in forum games, we were given the reason "their posts will make people feel welcomed so even a generic copied welcome message is considered a good post" or something to that degree. True enough yes, but when it's abused to the point of people getting hundreds of posts a week just in welcoming threads it is an issue that needs looking into and I'd be all for having the post count removed in that section. As mentioned it should also help to make new members branch out into other areas of the forum.

@Dan, the idea is to have good posts not just lots of them. My welcoming thread was the old spam crew warning me about how Stephen. got his *** out on cam to Clarissa which meant a lot more than "Hiiiiii enjoy your stay :) xxx" 20 times

If you don't have lots of posts then the forum will get smaller, i'd like to have big full interesting posts everywhere aswell, but that isn't what a forum is or will ever be, especially a Habbo Hotel-based forum.

[Yonder]

Nice thinking batman, lets see how many people stop posting in there now!

[Chippiewill]

If you don't have lots of posts then the forum will get smaller, i'd like to have big full interesting posts everywhere aswell, but that isn't what a forum is or will ever be, especially a Habbo Hotel-based forum.
Yes but this forum shouldn't be big for the people who spam the 'welcome to habboxforum' forum

[FlyingJesus]

If you don't have lots of posts then the forum will get smaller

That's only the case in terms of discussions. All you lose from having less posts in welcome threads is maybe the new members can't reply saying "thanks!!!!" so often, but it's hardly going to cause the collapse of all forum activity.

If people really are posting in welcome threads to welcome people then good on them and they'll keep doing it, but otherwise (just like with forum games) it'll prove that people are going there just to get post count up.

[The Professor]

Wholeheartedly agree with Dan. The forum needs posts atm, even if people don't mean it sincerely at least its posts! People take post count too seriously.

[Chippiewill]

People take post count too seriously.

It's because it affects what rank you are, which in turn, affects which features you have.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yes but this forum shouldn't be big for the people who spam the 'welcome to habboxforum' forum

It isn't spam, spam is a useless post, something which has no relation to the topic. A welcome to a welcome thread is a real post, its not a spam post.


That's only the case in terms of discussions. All you lose from having less posts in welcome threads is maybe the new members can't reply saying "thanks!!!!" so often, but it's hardly going to cause the collapse of all forum activity.

If people really are posting in welcome threads to welcome people then good on them and they'll keep doing it, but otherwise (just like with forum games) it'll prove that people are going there just to get post count up.

We have already had a collapse of forum activity, lets not make it worse. It will put people off, some people like me, now prefer to do bigger posts in forums such as debates and world affairs - my choice. Others (like I used to) will prefer smaller posts in UK news and rumours, some prefer discussions and some prefer welcome and feedback forums.

People are trying to get their post count up yes I agree with you, and really to be honest - who cares if they get more post counts than the rest of us?. If they put the effort in which benefits them, the forum and the newcomers then all is good.

[Chippiewill]

It isn't spam, spam is a useless post, something which has no relation to the topic. A welcome to a welcome thread is a real post, its not a spam post.


Spam is the abuse of electronic messaging systems (including most broadcast media, digital delivery systems) to send unsolicited bulk messages
Bulk messages of 'WELCOME TO HxF, PLEASE REPLY SO I CAN REPLY AGAIN BACK TO YOU LIKE I'M DISCUSSING BUT NOT'

it's also a canned meat made largely from pork


some prefer welcome .. forumsName one person who actually posts in there for the sheer enjoyment of it on a daily basis.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It's because it affects what rank you are, which in turn, affects which features you have.

..so you don't like people having better features than you have basically? - because thats what you are telling us really.


Bulk messages of 'WELCOME TO HxF, PLEASE REPLY SO I CAN REPLY AGAIN BACK TO YOU LIKE I'M DISCUSSING BUT NOT'

it's also a canned meat made largely from pork

I don't see that, most of them threads have about 6/7 posts adverage in, which all posts come from different users.

[Chippiewill]

..so you don't like people having better features than you have basically? - because thats what you are telling us really.



I don't see that, most of them threads have about 6/7 posts adverage in, which all posts come from different users.

Did you not see my post earlier of someone who had put 7 almost identical replies in seperate threads?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Did you not see my post earlier of someone who had put 7 almost identical replies in seperate threads?

..from different forum members.

That is a topic, its like if somebody posts a topic on a new rare which is popular, and everyone replies with 'oh thats nice' - is that also to be banned?

[Chippiewill]

..from different forum members.

That is a topic, its like if somebody posts a topic on a new rare which is popular, and everyone replies with 'oh thats nice' - is that also to be banned?

You clearly do not understand what I mean, PEOPLE ARE EFFECTIVLY C+PING THEIR REPLIES ACROSS THE WELCOME THREADS. THAT IS SPAM

(Yes, typing in Caps-lock makes me feel big)

[FlyingJesus]

How useful and welcoming are these examples?


Hello, welcome to the forum.

Sometimes he even goes as far as adding a :D face, wow. Feel the warmth everyone.


Hey,
Welcome to the forum.

Even better, it's like he wants to write a letter to the new guys showing how bland we are here.


welcome

Don't go overboard now.


People shouldn't be rewarded for the "effort" of finding loopholes that allow them lots of short posts in multiple threads in next to no time

[-:Undertaker:-]

What would you like them to do then? - these are new members to the forum, most of who people have never seen, heard of or spoken to before and all they are doing is posting a hello/hi/welcome/welcome to the forum message in the Welcome Forum.

[Seatherny]

What would you like them to do then? - these are new members to the forum, most of who people have never seen, heard of or spoken to before and all they are doing is posting a hello/hi/welcome/welcome to the forum message in the Welcome Forum.

Hey Bob. Welcome to HabboxForum :) My name is Saurav. How are you? Where are you from? If you need any help, feel free to drop me a PM.

People who post in Welcome forum just for post count will start posting in REAL discussions to increase their post count, thus increasing the activity.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Hey Bob. Welcome to HabboxForum :) My name is Saurav. How are you? Where are you from? If you need any help, feel free to drop me a PM.

People who post in Welcome forum just for post count will start posting in REAL discussions to increase their post count, thus increasing the activity.

What is different to your post compared to the others, except that yours had more words in but means exactly the same thing as all the others do. Why is post count and where people choose to post such a big issue to you guys?

[FlyingJesus]

What would you like them to do then?

Well I'd quite like them to make good posts around the forum in general. Geraint has been a nuisance all his life and I've never seen Teknequez other than in welcome threads. Of those three I quoted Ross is the only one who makes decent contributions ever, and you'll see this is the case for many people in that area - generally they are the newer members themselves wanting to get their post count up. If there were no post counts in that area then they'd be posting across the rest of the forum, and if not then we've only lost a useless member anyway.

[StefanWolves]

Gah, this forum amazes me. Just at a time when we need members and more posts, people want to cut it out.

I think some people here need to wake up and smell the roses, HxF is going down, and quicker than you think.

[Hecktix]

Gah, this forum amazes me. Just at a time when we need members and more posts, people want to cut it out.

I think some people here need to wake up and smell the roses, HxF is going down, and quicker than you think.

But stopping people from posting in the welcome forum to purely get their post count up is MAKING them post in OTHER areas of the forum.

That is beneficial at a time like this :rolleyes:

I think you're telling the wrong people to wake up...

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well I'd quite like them to make good posts around the forum in general. Geraint has been a nuisance all his life and I've never seen Teknequez other than in welcome threads. Of those three I quoted Ross is the only one who makes decent contributions ever, and you'll see this is the case for many people in that area - generally they are the newer members themselves wanting to get their post count up. If there were no post counts in that area then they'd be posting across the rest of the forum, and if not then we've only lost a useless member anyway.

If you give people what they want; an easy way to get their post counts up, that means they are more likely to stay as future members, and would then (just as I did, and many others did) start posting in different areas with more detailed posts. If you take that away then there is more of a chance they will lose interest and any enthusiasm they had and will leave.


Gah, this forum amazes me. Just at a time when we need members and more posts, people want to cut it out.

I think some people here need to wake up and smell the roses, HxF is going down, and quicker than you think.

Thank you, some common sense from some of us at least.


But stopping people from posting in the welcome forum to purely get their post count up is MAKING them post in OTHER areas of the forum.

That is beneficial at a time like this :rolleyes:

I think you're telling the wrong people to wake up...

It is not 'MAKING' them do anything, because they will just leave. Nothing this forum tries to impose on members will 'MAKE' them post elsewhere, or 'MAKE' them stay on HabboxForum as opposed to another forum. This is what Habbox forgets, it seems to think, and still appears to think thats its position is cemented against other forums.

[The Professor]

It is not 'MAKING' them do anything, because they will just leave. Nothing this forum tries to impose on members will 'MAKE' them post elsewhere, or 'MAKE' them stay on HabboxForum as opposed to another forum. This is what Habbox forgets, it seems to think, and still appears to think thats its position is cemented against other forums.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that. If someone is just posting to get their post count up, there's no way in hell that taking that away from them is going to encourage them to start making meaningful posts elsewhere. They'll either just make short posts elsewhere or give up and go home. They're hardly going to be useful members either way, at least this way they ARE making themselves useful by making newbies feel welcomed.

[FlyingJesus]

There is a difference between activity and membership, just as there is a difference between lots of posts and good posts. You are truly a fool if you think that having a large number of useless posts which can't possibly lead to any discussion is better than having people post in areas of the forum better suited for real threads to evolve. Taking away post count in the welcome area is making people post elsewhere if they want to continue having a rising post count, and if they decide not to bother after all then (as I said before) their presence won't be missed.

[Axel]

It's amazing that people still care about their post count... really guys, grow the **** up.

This isn't directed at anyone in the thread by the way, just a general opinion.

[GommeInc]

Right... Apparently if you disable the post count it will discourage members from posting in the Welcome forums, and if you don't ALL members will flock to it? Righty O, I've heard weirder things but if you have nothing else to waste your time with :rolleyes:

*grabs coat, brolly, hat, thong and walks out of the pub*

Keeping it is hardly doing damage, and removing it won't really do anything. The achievement of gaining posts is silly nowadays, especially with the new ranking system.

[Black_Apalachi]

I don't post in there to increase my post count, on the contrary, I'll admit I rarely ever post in there at all although I should try to be more welcoming to new members.

I agree with Dan though, changing something like this is only going to have an adverse effect on the forum. Saying it will make people post else where is a poor argument because firstly, it won't make them do anything but if it did, I really don't want to see more pointless posts spread across the entire forum. For this reason, I am very surprised that both the forum manager and a super moderator are agreeing with the idea since they are the ones who have to deal with all the pointless posting. Creating more of it will just contribute to the never-ending complaints about how the forum is over-moderated.

The point someone made about post count being just that, a count of how many posts you have made, is also true. What's the point in displaying a post count if it only applies to selected forums? :S Spam is an exception because threads and posts in that section are not designed to contribute to the forum as such. However welcoming new members couldn't be a more important aspect of contributing to the forum.

Besides, this debate is only taking place because one member happened to raise the issue. It clearly isn't causing a problem and nobody has ever brought it up before so why on Earth should it suddenly be changed? Furthermore, I'm sure if you think for a while, you'll come up with plenty of sections in various corners of the forum that could also be brought into the argument which would really make it sound silly.

[Seatherny]

This is what Habbox forgets, it seems to think, and still appears to think thats its position is cemented against other forums.

HabboxForum: Currently Active Users: 142 (74 members and 68 guests)
HFFM: Currently Active Users: 29 (22 members and 7 guests) with only 209 members visiting in the last 24 hours.

If anyone believes that HabboxForum is less active because it says Most users ever online was 819, 11-07-2008 at 06:41 PM. at the bottom of the forum then LOL because I made that happen by placing a iFrame on my site which used to get 40,000 Uniques a day.

HabboxForum still gets the same number of visitors a day as it did 2 years ago. Simple as. Its always averaged between 200-250 (sometimes 300) during peak hours.

[-:Undertaker:-]

HabboxForum: Currently Active Users: 142 (74 members and 68 guests)
HFFM: Currently Active Users: 29 (22 members and 7 guests) with only 209 members visiting in the last 24 hours.

If anyone believes that HabboxForum is less active because it says Most users ever online was 819, 11-07-2008 at 06:41 PM. at the bottom of the forum then LOL because I made that happen by placing a iFrame on my site which used to get 40,000 Uniques a day.

HabboxForum still gets the same number of visitors a day as it did 2 years ago. Simple as. Its always averaged between 200-250 (sometimes 300) during peak hours.

We in management have been told that Habbox is on the decline, that is also why management on here have not come on and told us that Habbox is not declining - because the simple fact is that Habbox is in decline.

You go on the hotel, Habbox is no longer in room descriptions.
You go on the forum, less forum activity.
You go on the site, less comments on articles.
You go to the rare values desk, empty.
You go to the help desk, mostly forum users and staff.

Instead of picking over the most pointless rules imaginable and trying to impose what we can here and there, lets actually get out there on the hotel, relax the forum and get Habbox back on track. Once its gone its gone.

[Seatherny]

I have always said, Habbox need to do more events, relax the rules on the forums (but this rule should be implemented), not close discussions but Moderators sort it out instead of closing it (a good one was closed earlier when it could have been avoided), do more competitions within the forum which anyone can enter and win prizes.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Why should this rule be implemented? - it serves no purpose, can vary right across the forum and has never been a problem until now, where it appears to have become a life or death issue. At a time when the forum is in decline (yet you disputed that and have now backtracked) you want to punish people for posting and wanting to get their post count higher? - in a way which helps the forum, those who are posting and new members themselves.

[Hecktix]

Why should this rule be implemented? - it serves no purpose, can vary right across the forum and has never been a problem until now, where it appears to have become a life or death issue. At a time when the forum is in decline (yet you disputed that and have now backtracked) you want to punish people for posting and wanting to get their post count higher? - in a way which helps the forum, those who are posting and new members themselves.

By that principle are you saying we should enable post count within spam?

[Seatherny]

Why should this rule be implemented? - it serves no purpose, can vary right across the forum and has never been a problem until now, where it appears to have become a life or death issue. At a time when the forum is in decline (yet you disputed that and have now backtracked) you want to punish people for posting and wanting to get their post count higher? - in a way which helps the forum, those who are posting and new members themselves.

Like someone has already said before, the people posting so much in the Welcome forum are only doing so to get their post counts up for whatever reason. However, if the post count was disabled there, the would have to post in proper discussions to get their post counts up, which would increase activity.
Spamming the Welcome forum doesn't lead to increased discussions or activity.

[kk.]

By that principle are you saying we should enable post count within spam?

No cus then every post would have to be constructive and unless face palms and lolcats are, then it should remain how it is. A lot of the posts in spam go off topic, but welcome posts don't.

I'm not saying anything about the amount of users visiting, but you notice that the forum is far less active than it used to be. Threads go back days rather than hours in some parts, and spam goes back to the day before where it wouldn't normally

are you really that pessimistic and stupid enough to think all people are posting in the welcome forum just for post count? Maybe there are people that kind who likes to make people feel welcome and loved

[FlyingJesus]

It's amazing that people still care about their post count... really guys, grow the **** up.

This isn't directed at anyone in the thread by the way, just a general opinion.

It's allowed as an opinion and of course many people don't care about post count other than perhaps as a way of getting to a higher userrank and getting better rewards from that, but that's not the singular view across the forum and especially in the Habbo sections and possibly other areas frequented by the younger and newer members post count is seen as some degree of authority. That's why it's an issue now, why it's been an issue in the past and why it will always be an issue in some way, especially when people can (and certainly have in the past) abuse that illusion of authority.


Besides, this debate is only taking place because one member happened to raise the issue. It clearly isn't causing a problem and nobody has ever brought it up before

never been a problem until now

Oh?


This was suggested aaaaaaages ago back when everyone was arguing about post count in forum games

Dan you even replied to that post, so don't come up trying to tell people it's never been an issue when you've been around long enough to know it has been.

[-:Undertaker:-]

By that principle are you saying we should enable post count within spam?

No, as the Welcome Forum has a specific purpose, and the Spam Forum doesn't to a degree. I believe the Forum Games should be allowed to increase post count though.


Like someone has already said before, the people posting so much in the Welcome forum are only doing so to get their post counts up for whatever reason. However, if the post count was disabled there, the would have to post in proper discussions to get their post counts up, which would increase activity.
Spamming the Welcome forum doesn't lead to increased discussions or activity.

Do you really care that much about somebodys post count? :S

On having to do something, no they wouldn't. They would simply stop posting, you cannot make or force somebody to do something. It isn't spamming, what else would you like somebody to say in the Welcome Forum besides Hello/Welcome/Hiya etc..? - should we all start posting in the Welcome Forum what our favourite colour is, what we did today, what we had for tea?


No cus then every post would have to be constructive and unless face palms and lolcats are, then it should remain how it is. A lot of the posts in spam go off topic, but welcome posts don't.

I'm not saying anything about the amount of users visiting, but you notice that the forum is far less active than it used to be. Threads go back days rather than hours in some parts, and spam goes back to the day before where it wouldn't normally

Thank you, common sense again.
+rep if I can.


Dan you even replied to that post, so don't come up trying to tell people it's never been an issue when you've been around long enough to know it has been.

..and now I realise that decisions like that have only harmed the forum and Habbox itself.

[Seatherny]

Thank you, common sense again.
+rep if I can.
That to me suggests that anyone who disagrees with you lacks common sense.

I think someone mentioned something about the RVR Desk being empty. I am sorry but I don't think its ever really been popular? Its a useless idea and should have never been implemented. If people want rare values they can go to habbox.com :rolleyes: or if they need help then use HxHD and make one desk popular.

Posting "Welcome to the forum" is not creating a proper discussion? :S

The reason why this forum is less active now is because people like MAD have driven them away. I left because of him (and he banned so many) and when I found out he resigned, I came back. I had PM'ed and posted many times saying MAD needs to be fired but no one listened.
Its the GMs like him who have ruined habboxforum. Honestly, nvrspk4 isnt that great either. We need a more relaxed (rules wise etc) GM who also contributes alot in discussions like Seacat and JackHb used to do.

[Hecktix]

If people post in the welcome forum for their post count (which as a moderator I believe is the case, because the amount of people who post in numerous threads at a time with the same message is stupid), they do also have the intention of welcoming the users however if we stop them from doing this, then they'll post elsewhere for their post count (even short posts would still benefit other areas of the forum moreso than the welcome forum).

Can I just add, the post count doesnt increase in the "Congratulations" forum either :)

[FlyingJesus]

..and now I realise that decisions like that have only harmed the forum and Habbox itself.

Getting rid of the post count in forum games killed the forum? I think the fact that the area is as good as dead now shows that we were right to suggest that people only frequented the area for the sake of raising a few hundred on the post count (despite what they said at the time) and if you're going to use total posts as a measure of good forum activity you're looking in quite the wrong place. Would you rather have 20 messages of Hi! Welcome to the forum :) or 5 in actual discussion threads which can prompt far more posts after? It truly is about quality and not quantity, which is where many many people are going wrong in their suggestions of what the forum needs to do.

[Seatherny]

Also I think the Habbox Management team should post more often, especially in these discussions. Its good to see FM's and a smod posting though.

[Black_Apalachi]

It's allowed as an opinion and of course many people don't care about post count other than perhaps as a way of getting to a higher userrank and getting better rewards from that, but that's not the singular view across the forum and especially in the Habbo sections and possibly other areas frequented by the younger and newer members post count is seen as some degree of authority. That's why it's an issue now, why it's been an issue in the past and why it will always be an issue in some way, especially when people can (and certainly have in the past) abuse that illusion of authority.




Oh?



Dan you even replied to that post, so don't come up trying to tell people it's never been an issue when you've been around long enough to know it has been.

OK, one person has brought it up in the past then? Big deal. It's still not a major issue that is causing any problems.

EDIT


If people post in the welcome forum for their post count (which as a moderator I believe is the case, because the amount of people who post in numerous threads at a time with the same message is stupid), they do also have the intention of welcoming the users however if we stop them from doing this, then they'll post elsewhere for their post count (even short posts would still benefit other areas of the forum moreso than the welcome forum).

Can I just add, the post count doesnt increase in the "Congratulations" forum either :)

How is welcoming new users any less beneficial than posting some piece of crap one-liner in other threads where proper discussions are taking place? :S

Is the Congratulations forum always been or has it just been changed? And has this already been changed as well?

[Seatherny]

OK, one person has brought it up in the past then? Big deal. It's still not a major issue that is causing any problems.

I have been on this forum for several years now and have seen it brought up many times.

[Hecktix]

Also I think the Habbox Management team should post more often, especially in these discussions. Its good to see FM's and a smod posting though.

Agree here, I was thinking just earlier how good it is to see a bright green name in the form of infrequent in the "General" category often participating in discussions. Jin is busy atm doing everybody's jobs, nvr is here but not here.
I think that if we have any management that don't want to be here, they should go and let us find someone that will be active and decisive in their actions.


OK, one person has brought it up in the past then? Big deal. It's still not a major issue that is causing any problems.

If my theory of it making people post elsewhere on the forum is correct, even if the posts are short and simple, I'd rather have short and simple posts in Discuss Anything than Welcome forum as it sparks more discussion but as I was saying if this is correct, then it'd be hugely beneficial to the forum therefore we could look at this as not causing problems but a way of improving forum activity.

[FlyingJesus]

It's been a part of a fair few discussions outside of feedback, quite a few times in spam there have been threads about it that I can recall and at a time when we're apparently trying to iron out the kinks to help the forum get more active again not being a "major" issue shouldn't make it a redundant one.

[Hecktix]

@ Rob, congrats forum has always been this way.

And yes, "pointless" one liners are more beneficial.

I'd rather have half-hearted comments added to discussions than "HI WELCOME TO THE FORUM". Even if it's just people adding to discussions "Oh I agree with this", its a lot more beneficial to the discussions and would be keeping the forum active.

[-:Undertaker:-]

That to me suggests that anyone who disagrees with you lacks common sense.Well i'd certainly argue that with this thread, common sense over this issue at least anyway. If the forum is in decline you do not go cutting posting. If you have a welcome forum you do not go around imposing regulations which put people off doing the exact thing that forum is designed for, saying hello.


I think someone mentioned something about the RVR Desk being empty. I am sorry but I don't think its ever really been popular? Its a useless idea and should have never been implemented. If people want rare values they can go to habbox.com :rolleyes: or if they need help then use HxHD and make one desk popular.Actually when I owned it back in 2006/2007 I never even had to try and get it popular, Habbox has such a following that is was full 24/7 and i'm not even making that up, it really was so successful. The desk is not useless, nobody knows the rare values team anymore, people are losing interest in rare values - that is why it exists and that is the reason we brought it back.


Posting "Welcome to the forum" is not creating a proper discussion? :SThe Welcome Forum is not the place for a full on discussion.


The reason why this forum is less active now is because people like MAD have driven them away. I left because of him (and he banned so many) and when I found out he resigned, I came back. I had PM'ed and posted many times saying MAD needs to be fired but no one listened.He banned me. I tried and tried with others to get this place to change and eventually it did, thats why i'm back on. The proposal here is a type of policy that 8Freak8 or ---MAD--- would want to impose, a pointless and uneeded rule which only causes trouble and creates a problem rather than solving it.


Its the GMs like him who have ruined habboxforum. Honestly, nvrspk4 isnt that great either. We need a more relaxed (rules wise etc) GM who also contributes alot in discussions like Seacat and JackHb used to do.Nvrspk4 is fine as General Manager and the same with :Jin: as acting General Manager and the reason we are not talking about them all the time is because they are doing their job properly, they are not interferring in everything as was done in the past and is trying to be done here.

A welcome forum = to say welcome in.

[Seatherny]

Well i'd certainly argue that with this thread, common sense over this issue at least anyway. If the forum is in decline you do not go cutting posting. If you have a welcome forum you do not go around imposing regulations which put people off doing the exact thing that forum is designed for, saying hello.

But we aren't stopping them from saying Hello? They can still say hello if they want to. People mass post in the Welcome forum ONLY to get their post count up. If that way was no longer possible for them, they would have to revert to proper discussions, hence benefiting the forum.


Actually when I owned it back in 2006/2007 I never even had to try and get it popular, Habbox has such a following that is was full 24/7 and i'm not even making that up, it really was so successful. The desk is not useless, nobody knows the rare values team anymore, people are losing interest in rare values - that is why it exists and that is the reason we brought it back.

The new Habbo generation is different. I remember when I was RVR staff around that time, and I know for a fact that the room was not popular. Many things have been tried to get it popular but nothings worked.



Nvrspk4 is fine as General Manager and the same with :Jin: as acting General Manager and the reason we are not talking about them all the time is because they are doing their job properly, they are not interferring in everything as was done in the past and is trying to be done here.


nvrspk4 was crap before, maybe he is better now, if he is then thats great. Jin is bloody awesome, anyone who flames him is an idiot. Simple as.

[Black_Apalachi]

@ Rob, congrats forum has always been this way.

And yes, "pointless" one liners are more beneficial.

I'd rather have half-hearted comments added to discussions than "HI WELCOME TO THE FORUM". Even if it's just people adding to discussions "Oh I agree with this", its a lot more beneficial to the discussions and would be keeping the forum active.

You're basically saying you want arguments. People who post like that cause arguments. I still don't see why you would want to discourage people from welcoming new users, especially at a time where the direction of the forum is being questioned.

I'll just say this, if you do change this, please change the little thing that says 'Posts:' as it will be misleading and pointless.

[Seatherny]

You're basically saying you want arguments. People who post like that cause arguments. I still don't see why you would want to discourage people from welcoming new users, especially at a time where the direction of the forum is being questioned.

I'll just say this, if you do change this, please change the little thing that says 'Posts:' as it will be misleading and pointless.

No, we believe that people posting in actual discussions would be much better than a few "Welcome to the forum" posts. If people cant get post counts up by posting there, they will revert to proper discussions.

[Hecktix]

You're basically saying you want arguments. People who post like that cause arguments. I still don't see why you would want to discourage people from welcoming new users, especially at a time where the direction of the forum is being questioned.

I'll just say this, if you do change this, please change the little thing that says 'Posts:' as it will be misleading and pointless.

I'm not saying I want arguments I'm saying I want discussion.

Right, you're an average new user, got 420 posts and realised in 80 posts time you get more privelidges (of a silver member), the easiest way to get those 80 posts quickly would be to boost your normal posting by posting in 5 or 6 welcome threads every so often. If this was not possible, then they'd have to post elsewhere. You'll find for instance, that nobody says "the welcome forum is declining in posts", yet most people say other forums are declining in posts. I'll be honest with you, the welcome forum gets more posts than a lot of other meaningful forums, surely we should be trying to boost the meaningful forums as this would provide a better aura and setting for good discussions?

Speaking of arguments though, some heated discussions certainly wouldn't do this forum any harm.

But seriously, can you not see that someone posting in a discussion saying they agree/disagree is more beneficial then someone saying "hi welcome to the forum".

In all honesty it wouldn't discourage people to post in the welcome forum, people still post in the congrats forum, but it would encourage people to post elsewhere to ensure they get their post count up.

[FlyingJesus]

If the forum is in decline you do not go cutting posting.

What is there that you don't get about post quality? Welcome threads having a couple less posts is not going to make any difference at all to the forums, whereas people being part of threads where an actual opinion is required (for, as you quite rightly said, welcome threads are not for discussions) most certainly is. Even if they go to spam and have fights it'll be better, the forum needs at least something to get onto and keeping people in welcome threads isn't going to bring about any good change.

[-:Undertaker:-]

But we aren't stopping them from saying Hello? They can still say hello if they want to. People mass post in the Welcome forum ONLY to get their post count up. If that way was no longer possible for them, they would have to revert to proper discussions, hence benefiting the forum.How can I put this simply; post count to many people matters. On getting people to post in other discussions, they won't because if they were interested in them discussions, they would be posting in them aswell as the welcome forum meaning at the moment, they would be getting double the amount of posts.


The new Habbo generation is different. I remember when I was RVR staff around that time, and I know for a fact that the room was not popular. Many things have been tried to get it popular but nothings worked.
If you are telling me that room was not popular then you don't have a memory of it, or were not even around as rare values staff them. The whole of the trading community actually knew the rare values team. I don't wish to seem arrogant but even now when i'm in casinos, I still get people saying 'hey werent/arent you that rare values guy' - soley because of that desk.

I spoke to a trader today who said traders, when it comes to rare values, are now turning back to Habbox. We still have a long way to go with adding rares and generating more interest but something is clicking.


nvrspk4 was crap before, maybe he is better now, if he is then thats great. Jin is bloody awesome, anyone who flames him is an idiot. Simple as...then what is the problem? :P


What is there that you don't get about post quality? Welcome threads having a couple less posts is not going to make any difference at all to the forums, whereas people being part of threads where an actual opinion is required (for, as you quite rightly said, welcome threads are not for discussions) most certainly is. Even if they go to spam and have fights it'll be better, the forum needs at least something to get onto and keeping people in welcome threads isn't going to bring about any good change.

The Welcome Forum is not supposed to be a forum full of quality posts. It does what it says on the bottom, greet new members.

[Black_Apalachi]

No, we believe that people posting in actual discussions would be much better than a few "Welcome to the forum" posts. If people cant get post counts up by posting there, they will revert to proper discussions.

But they won't put any effort into the other posts within discussions anyway so it would just cause arguments!!!!

The equivalent of 'Welcome to forum' is like 'nice alt' or 'yes' in answer to a question. Pointless posts.

[Hecktix]

But they won't put any effort into the other posts within discussions anyway so it would just cause arguments!!!!

The equivalent of 'Welcome to forum' is like 'nice alt' or 'yes' in answer to a question. Pointless posts.

I'd rather have posts like that across the forum than "welcome to the forum"

and like I said earlier, some heated discussions/arguments could do this forum good, which is why as a department moderation has decided to be more leniant on arguments.

[FlyingJesus]

Pointless posts are dealt with by moderation, so anyone doing that would soon stop or at least fake a good post.

[Black_Apalachi]

I'd rather have posts like that across the forum than "welcome to the forum"

and like I said earlier, some heated discussions/arguments could do this forum good, which is why as a department moderation has decided to be more leniant on arguments.

Obviously I don't mean proper discussion type arguments like that, they will just cause 'omg shut up noob' type arguments.


Pointless posts are dealt with by moderation, so anyone doing that would soon stop or at least fake a good post.

Which is why I said I was surprised at Oli and Matt praising the idea as it's just going to create lots more work for them.

I can't believe we're basically discussing whether we should encourage people to post for the sake of the post count :S.

[Hecktix]

We're forgetting the OP's point that this may invite new users to post elsewhere in the forum (which can actually be seen as quite daunting if they are new) rather than the welcome forum.

If the post count isnt counted in the welcome forum then they have to post elsewhere to gain their 5 post approvals.

I'm all for new members posting elsehwere, and to be honest I'm all for a bit of leniance on pointless posting, as long as a post isnt weoiwefipwenfiwe or incredibly off topic I think it should be allowed, even if it is a simple "yes" in response to a question.

[Black_Apalachi]

Well if things do change like that in terms of pointless posting, I'm not looking forward to the future of Habbox Forum.

[Hecktix]

Well if things do change like that in terms of pointless posting, I'm not looking forward to the future of Habbox Forum.

I believe the way in which moderators are pushed to be strict on things such as pointless posting is pushing users away.

[FlyingJesus]

I can't believe we're basically discussing whether we should encourage people to post for the sake of the post count :S.

We're not, we're discussing how it's better for such people to be posting in discussion topics if at all


I'm all for new members posting elsehwere, and to be honest I'm all for a bit of leniance on pointless posting, as long as a post isnt weoiwefipwenfiwe or incredibly off topic I think it should be allowed, even if it is a simple "yes" in response to a question.

Can't say I'm a fan of that, the new debates rule is a big step in the right direction (for that section at least) where you have to give reasoning for yours posts. I'm not saying everywhere should have to follow that rule but pointless posts are just that: pointless. As I've said however many times over the past few "improvement" threads we need lots more posts yes, but only if they're good posts.

[Hecktix]

Can't say I'm a fan of that, the new debates rule is a big step in the right direction (for that section at least) where you have to give reasoning for yours posts. I'm not saying everywhere should have to follow that rule but pointless posts are just that: pointless. As I've said however many times over the past few "improvement" threads we need lots more posts yes, but only if they're good posts.

A post such as "I agree" or "yes" has some degree of a point to it, I don't think people would do this a lot because if everybody did it it'd make everything extremely boring however I do believe that our strict policies on things such as this does prevent people from posting.

Of course it was a brilliant step in the debates forum, because there's nothing more annoying in a debate when someone says "I disagree" and just leaves it like that, well infact, that's not really debating is it as debating is about putting across a good argument, however in more menial discussions across the forums sometimes a short response could be helpful.

For instance, the way we look at pointless posts at the moment is ridiculous, the other day a member got their post edited for posting in a thread about a celebrity and saying "I don't know who they are", in my eyes this isn't pointless and someone could very easily then explain who whoever the celebrity was to the member who wasn't aware of them (I think it was a member from a different country and the celebrity was from a british tv show).

[kk.]

Speaking of arguments though, some heated discussions certainly wouldn't do this forum any harm.

you're kidding right? I've been involved in a few threads and everytime it starts to get heated it's closed

[Suspective]

In the end its only a ''number''

[xxMATTGxx]

There is wide range of views from different people in the thread regarding whether it should be turned on or off. A person with a green name did say something along the lines of "I would like new members to be actively welcomed, so I say we leave it." So if the congratulations forum doesn't have post count rising, which still gets threads? I don't see why the welcome forum should start declining because of it. Unless they only post there for the post count. (The change may not be happening)

[Chippiewill]

Hello, welcome to the forum. :D


Hello, welcome to the forum. :D


Hello, welcome to the forum.


Hello, welcome to the forum :D


Hello, welcome to the forum :D


Hi, welcome back.


Hello, welcome to the forum. :D


Hello, welcome to the forum.


Hello, welcome to the forum. :D

All within the space of 5 minutes, all to boost post count
Anybody who thinks this should be allowed should believe that spam is positive discussion.

[Hecktix]

you're kidding right? I've been involved in a few threads and everytime it starts to get heated it's closed

New policy wont see that happening :)

[syko2006]

Innit blad, people d o use that forum for getting their post count up, I'm guilty of it and Im sure many members may admit to it in the past.

Yep. :eusa_whis

Maybe it should be turned off now haha. :D

[e5]

Innit blad, people d o use that forum for getting their post count up, I'm guilty of it and Im sure many members may admit to it in the past.
meeeee im guilty;)
BRB OFF TO POST WELCOME TO EVERYONE BEFORE IT DOES GET TURNED OFF +*+*+*

[Hushie]

I completely agree with Undertaker and everyone else who thinks this is a terrible idea.

Removing post count in the welcome forum will NOT raise activity in other parts of the forum. If people want to post in other parts of the forum they will do regardless of whether post count can be raised in the welcome forum.

What's wrong with posting in the welcome forum for post count? It makes the new forum members feel welcomed and in turn will make the forum more active as new members will feel like a part of the community and will take part in discussions elsewhere; thus making the forum a lot more active.

[Hecktix]

What's wrong with posting in the welcome forum for post count? It makes the new forum members feel welcomed and in turn will make the forum more active as new members will feel like a part of the community and will take part in discussions elsewhere; thus making the forum a lot more active.

So why isn't this happening already?
If new members had to post in places other than the welcome forum to get their 5 approved posts, it could quite easily happen...

[Hushie]

So why isn't this happening already?
If new members had to post in places other than the welcome forum to get their 5 approved posts, it could quite easily happen...

No, it wouldn't.
You'd be imposing even more restrictions on forum members and would scare off the newbies.

[Hecktix]

No, it wouldn't.
You'd be imposing even more restrictions on forum members and would scare off the newbies.

I fail to see how, 'cause it'd be introducing them to different sections of the forum...

[Hushie]

I fail to see how, 'cause it'd be introducing them to different sections of the forum...

How? How exactly is killing one part of the forum introducing them to other parts of the forum?

[Inseriousity.]

So why isn't this happening already?
If new members had to post in places other than the welcome forum to get their 5 approved posts, it could quite easily happen...

There could be other factors. Old members have been commenting on the lack of interesting threads, maybe they feel the same way etc etc.

Any welcome (regardless of the intentions of the welcomer) is better than no welcome surely.

edit: I do not welcome members that often unfortunately cos I am not really fussed about post count so this isn't just some plot from me to keep my post count high!

[Hecktix]

There could be other factors. Old members have been commenting on the lack of interesting threads, maybe they feel the same way etc etc.

Any welcome (regardless of the intentions of the welcomer) is better than no welcome surely.

edit: I do not welcome members that often unfortunately cos I am not really fussed about post count so this isn't just some plot from me to keep my post count high!

As said above, the congratulations forum still gets a lot of posts even though they don't count in there, therefore disabling the post count in the welcome forum shouldn't affect the amount of welcomes.

[kk.]

New policy wont see that happening :)

Then why can't you introduce a new policy into the welcome forum? Rather than having no post count, why not impose a rule at the top saying please be more 'constructive' when posting posting in the forum. You can tell when people are doing it on purpose, and so punish those, not people who are genuinely happy to meet and greet people

[Hecktix]

Then why can't you introduce a new policy into the welcome forum? Rather than having no post count, why not impose a rule at the top saying please be more 'constructive' when posting posting in the forum. You can tell when people are doing it on purpose, and so punish those, not people who are genuinely happy to meet and greet people

This is another possibility :)
There is something along the lines of guidelines already posted in the forum however these are quite unclear.

[Alex3213]

This is another possibility :)
There is something along the lines of guidelines already posted in the forum however these are quite unclear.

Agreed. However, on that note, I thought it was already introduced? I can see many members who do it for post count, but in actual fact, they actually aren't being reminded. I know it is posted in there, however surely you should be reminding them? I'm not up for removing post count, but I am up for constructive posts only.

[GommeInc]

I fail to see how, 'cause it'd be introducing them to different sections of the forum...
No it won't, if they want to use different parts of the forum they will. Why would they immediately sit and rot in the Welcome Forum not taking any notice of the other forums all because of a post count? You can pointless post under the radar in other forums? And surely removing the post count would make people not post in a welcome forum, therefore suggesting you don't want to be welcoming?

[Hecktix]

No it won't, if they want to use different parts of the forum they will. Why would they immediately sit and rot in the Welcome Forum not taking any notice of the other forums all because of a post count? You can pointless post under the radar in other forums? And surely removing the post count would make people not post in a welcome forum, therefore suggesting you don't want to be welcoming?

As said before by MattGarner, the congratulations forum hasn't got post count enabled and we still get threads in there, so I guess we'd still get posts in the welcome forum, however if people wanted to increase their post count they'd have to find another way to do it.

Afterall if they then go and spam other places to boost their post count, they'll lose all the posts so it won't be beneficial in the end.

[GommeInc]

So why is post count a big deal? And from what I'm reading in the Welcome forums, none of the posts are spam so far - they're all on topic, welcoming and welcoming back members. This just seems like a typical "HxF members do not know what words mean" discussion, that's two words vitally needed for the HxF Dictionary; Spam and Argument :P

[Smits]

It wouldnt encourage members to post elsewhere, it would just discourage them from welcoming people. It's a post, even if it only says welcome hope you stay active or whatever, i don't see why it wouldnt count.

[Nixt]

I didn't read every post in this thread because it is LONG and around half way through the argument seemed to be repeating itself. It is my personal opinion that this change would achieve very little. Although I can see the reasoning behind it I don't think it will do much to increase activity in other forums if I am honest. I don't see the harm in leaving it as it is. People look for more leniency but if we cracked down hardcore on posts in that forum we would get a lot of pissed off members. It is still up for discussion though.

[hah]

new users get there 5 posts in there welcome thread and that means they can post in other areas of the forum... if you have to wait to post in threads you like its gets frustrating and you just cba

[StefanWolves]

I was going to post in this later on after the Wolves game, but now that Garion has cleared it up I don't see the need to.

Thank you Garion, for having common sense.

The rule change would do nothing at all, if anything it'd quieten the forum down.

[Axel]

It's allowed as an opinion and of course many people don't care about post count other than perhaps as a way of getting to a higher userrank and getting better rewards from that, but that's not the singular view across the forum and especially in the Habbo sections and possibly other areas frequented by the younger and newer members post count is seen as some degree of authority. That's why it's an issue now, why it's been an issue in the past and why it will always be an issue in some way, especially when people can (and certainly have in the past) abuse that illusion of authority.


I wouldn't judge someone on the amount of posts they have, but on what their posts consist of. Maybe that's just me though. Giving two contrasting examples, someone like you, as well as many others on this forum, has a lot of posts, yet most of the time, from what I've seen, you obviously put some effort into the posts, and the end result is a respectable post. But some others, I won't name and shame people, have a hell of a lot of posts too, but with that, the content of their posts are quite awful, and are usually badly thought out, extremely short posts.

[The Professor]

New policy wont see that happening :)

What new policy? Tbh this isn't the first time I've heard people in the moderation department say "ooh we've been told to do things differently" or "there's a new policy which means we will/won't edit for xyz" and tbh its confusing the hell out of me! if there's a big enough policy change that will affect the way the forum is moderated, shouldn't it be announced so everyone knows what it is? Because atm we're seeing wildy inconsistent moderating (as evidenced by some of the threads in this forum) and lots of secret BTS policy changes and nothing make sense and my brain hurts :'(

</rant> :P

[Hecktix]

What new policy? Tbh this isn't the first time I've heard people in the moderation department say "ooh we've been told to do things differently" or "there's a new policy which means we will/won't edit for xyz" and tbh its confusing the hell out of me! if there's a big enough policy change that will affect the way the forum is moderated, shouldn't it be announced so everyone knows what it is? Because atm we're seeing wildy inconsistent moderating (as evidenced by some of the threads in this forum) and lots of secret BTS policy changes and nothing make sense and my brain hurts :'(

</rant> :P

The new things we have decided will only affect the forum as and when they happen. For instance, we don't need to announce that we're not going to close threads that are ruined by a couple of members arguing etc, that can just be made apparent when it happens.

As for allowing arguments and heated discussions, again, this can be seen when it happens.

http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?p=6174733#post6174733

Perfect example of a thread that may have got closed under previous moderation policies...

[FlyingJesus]

How? How exactly is killing one part of the forum introducing them to other parts of the forum?

Well clearly if you can't get your post count up in one area, those who are posting for a post count will have to do it elsewhere. This includes new members who need the 5 posts.


No it won't, if they want to use different parts of the forum they will. Why would they immediately sit and rot in the Welcome Forum not taking any notice of the other forums all because of a post count? You can pointless post under the radar in other forums? And surely removing the post count would make people not post in a welcome forum, therefore suggesting you don't want to be welcoming?

Would rather have a couple of sincere welcome posts than a page full of what typically gets posted there tbh, and going into the welcome area to see every thread in the last three days last replied to by the same person just looks so false.


I wouldn't judge someone on the amount of posts they have, but on what their posts consist of. Maybe that's just me though. Giving two contrasting examples, someone like you, as well as many others on this forum, has a lot of posts, yet most of the time, from what I've seen, you obviously put some effort into the posts, and the end result is a respectable post. But some others, I won't name and shame people, have a hell of a lot of posts too, but with that, the content of their posts are quite awful, and are usually badly thought out, extremely short posts.

I agree entirely, I don't judge people on their post counts because I know that everyone from time to time makes really crap posts and a lot of people with not many have brought up good points in the past, but especially for younger members it is something that matters. Can't say much about recent times because I don't use the Habbo sections now, but back in the day I remember plenty of cross-game trade threads (such as Habbo for Runescape or whatever) saying "you go first unless you're well known as I have a larger post count", and there was a fair bit of scamming trouble that stemmed from it, especially when that Kyle kid started trying to buy all the big accounts off people. Sad perhaps but that's how it goes unfortunately.

[-:Undertaker:-]

So why is post count a big deal? And from what I'm reading in the Welcome forums, none of the posts are spam so far - they're all on topic, welcoming and welcoming back members. This just seems like a typical "HxF members do not know what words mean" discussion, that's two words vitally needed for the HxF Dictionary; Spam and Argument :P

The thing/s that are being ignored blindly are;


Why do they care if people are working for a high post count?
You cannot 'make' somebody post in another part of the forum.
The welcome forum is for saying welcome.

It seems to me the busy bodies are out and about and desperate to make some new rules/regulations, and at a time when Habbox is suffering its the most stupid and pointless thing to do. I would understand if we had people posting hello two hundred times in the same thread, but we simply don't.


I didn't read every post in this thread because it is LONG and around half way through the argument seemed to be repeating itself. It is my personal opinion that this change would achieve very little. Although I can see the reasoning behind it I don't think it will do much to increase activity in other forums if I am honest. I don't see the harm in leaving it as it is. People look for more leniency but if we cracked down hardcore on posts in that forum we would get a lot of pissed off members. It is still up for discussion though.

Thank you, common sense.
+rep

[FlyingJesus]

The thing/s that are being ignored blindly are;


Why do they care if people are working for a high post count?
You cannot 'make' somebody post in another part of the forum.
The welcome forum is for saying welcome.


All of these have been spoken about, try again.

[-:Undertaker:-]

All of these have been spoken about, try again.

None of them have been spoken about, people seem to keep going on about this magical solution that if by not having post count in the welcome forum suddenly the whole forum will become a buzz of activity - it won't happen.

[FlyingJesus]

No, they really have been spoken about, and if you're not going to take in what's written you probably shouldn't make claims.

All three in fact were covered in my post just above yours where you tried to tell us that we haven't said anything about them. No-one is saying that stopping post count in welcome threads will save the forum, but we're trying to promote good discussion rather than lazily generated posts pasted across a multitude of threads. If you'd care to perhaps not lie about what we're saying it would be much appreciated.

[Black_Apalachi]

As said before by MattGarner, the congratulations forum hasn't got post count enabled and we still get threads in there, so I guess we'd still get posts in the welcome forum, however if people wanted to increase their post count they'd have to find another way to do it.

Afterall if they then go and spam other places to boost their post count, they'll lose all the posts so it won't be beneficial in the end.

In that case, why don't we make a feedback thread called, 'Turn on post counts in the Congratulations section' because after all, a post is a post. You can't compare the two sections though, as one only sees threads created by new members while the other has threads created by older members where there mates are bound to reply. So in that respect I could understand why there are no post counts in Congratulations, but the same reasoning does not apply to Welcome.


I wouldn't judge someone on the amount of posts they have, but on what their posts consist of. Maybe that's just me though. Giving two contrasting examples, someone like you, as well as many others on this forum, has a lot of posts, yet most of the time, from what I've seen, you obviously put some effort into the posts, and the end result is a respectable post. But some others, I won't name and shame people, have a hell of a lot of posts too, but with that, the content of their posts are quite awful, and are usually badly thought out, extremely short posts.

Exactly. What is being proposed here will inevitably allow many more people to have high post counts with little or no effort put into their posts. I personally hate when serious threads are polluted with posts like that and I usually don't even bother reading them if they're by the usual people.

[StefanWolves]

One day common sense will prevail. :/

[Nixt]

What new policy? Tbh this isn't the first time I've heard people in the moderation department say "ooh we've been told to do things differently" or "there's a new policy which means we will/won't edit for xyz" and tbh its confusing the hell out of me! if there's a big enough policy change that will affect the way the forum is moderated, shouldn't it be announced so everyone knows what it is? Because atm we're seeing wildy inconsistent moderating (as evidenced by some of the threads in this forum) and lots of secret BTS policy changes and nothing make sense and my brain hurts :'(

</rant> :P

I don't understand what you mean by 'wildly inconsistent' moderation... if you could explain than Matt and I will most certainly do what we can to eradicate this issue.

The changes in policy made within Moderators only do not affect the members directly - if this was the case we would of course announce it (an example being the recent change to the automatic banning system) but these are small changes to the way Moderators do things. We've just become more lenient on arguments and where we close threads. Not really something we need to announce, members will continue to post as normal but the way in which they are dealt with in some instances will be different - we are not asking the members to behave any differently so it's of no real necessity to announce it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

No, they really have been spoken about, and if you're not going to take in what's written you probably shouldn't make claims.

All three in fact were covered in my post just above yours where you tried to tell us that we haven't said anything about them. No-one is saying that stopping post count in welcome threads will save the forum, but we're trying to promote good discussion rather than lazily generated posts pasted across a multitude of threads. If you'd care to perhaps not lie about what we're saying it would be much appreciated.

This is what I mean, stopping post counts in that forum will not make people post in other areas of the forum, it will not generate anything just maybe put people off posting totally because they have always mainly strived for a higher post count.

[Sammeth.]

This is what I mean, stopping post counts in that forum will not make people post in other areas of the forum, it will not generate anything just maybe put people off posting totally because they have always mainly strived for a higher post count.
I think what annoys people (and by people I mean me) about the way you debate is that you put your argument across as if its fact, when it isn't. You don't know it will not make people post in other areas, as its never been done before so none of us know.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I think what annoys people (and by people I mean me) about the way you debate is that you put your argument across as if its fact, when it isn't. You don't know it will not make people post in other areas, as its never been done before so none of us know.

Why do you have reason to believe it might? - and more to the point, when the forum is struggling with numbers you do not go and potentially harm it (shoot yourself in the foot). Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Black_Apalachi]

I think what annoys people (and by people I mean me) about the way you debate is that you put your argument across as if its fact, when it isn't. You don't know it will not make people post in other areas, as its never been done before so none of us know.

However you know it will? :S

[Lee]

Its a start for new members to build it up.

[J0SH]

It has got to be one of the silliest things ever, here's some reasons why Post counts should not increase in the Welcome Forum:

The user can spam their way out of post moderating
Why on earth should people have their post count increase for writing "Welcome to HabboxForum <insert username here>, I hope you enjoy this community" in every thread in there. I can understand welcoming people but not for post count...

It's only a post count, why do you care so much?

If people wanna build post count up, let them get on with it? It isn't going to stop you sleeping at night.. or is it?

[Chippiewill]

It's only a post count, why do you care so much?

Under your reckoning Spam should have post count. :rolleyes:
You must wonder why a ranking system is in place as well.. oh what a sheltered life.

[FlyingJesus]

This is what I mean, stopping post counts in that forum will not make people post in other areas of the forum, it will not generate anything just maybe put people off posting totally because they have always mainly strived for a higher post count.

If they want that higher post count, what do you imagine they would have to do? Hint: the answer is post elsewhere.


However you know it will? :S

What part of "none of us know" did you not get in his post?

[GommeInc]

Under your reckoning Spam should have post count. :rolleyes:
You must wonder why a ranking system is in place as well.. oh what a sheltered life.
Evidence is in the name dear ;)

Welcome Forum - To Welcome new members, therefore it has a point.
Spam Forum - Discussions that don't necessarily have a point and they do not need to keep to a specific target or discussion and can be a complete mess if need be.

Removing the post count in the Welcome Forum is pointless, especially when there aren't that many threads in that forum to 'pointlessly' say "Welcome" in, despite the fact that alot of the posts are on-topic and welcoming. I fail to see your point that the Welcome Forum is a spam forum? :/

EDIT: Digging deeper, each Bronze Star is 100 posts in that forum, good luck to anyone attempting to gain 100 posts in that forum to gain each individual bronze star, they'd be dead by the end of the year attempting such a devilish feat. :P

[Sammeth.]

Why do you have reason to believe it might? - and more to the point, when the forum is struggling with numbers you do not go and potentially harm it (shoot yourself in the foot). Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

The reasons I think it might is because if they can't post there to increase their post count they will post elsewhere on the forum to get their post count up. If they bothered enough to register one would assume they want to keep posting so will try their best to make sure they get through the newly registered member stage. But thats not to say it definately will. Thats why I have reason to beleive this, just like you have reasons to beleive what you beleive. The point I was actually making is that you state your opinion like its fact, when it isn't fact. You really annoy me. Thats a fact.


I think what annoys people (and by people I mean me) about the way you debate is that you put your argument across as if its fact, when it isn't. You don't know it will not make people post in other areas, as its never been done before so *+*+*None of us know*+*+*.


However you know it will? :S

Yeah cus thats what I said....

[Black_Apalachi]

For the love of God :rolleyes:. You were responding to Dan's comment which stated that you can't make people post elsewhere. His post was a reply to a comment saying making this change will make people post elsewhere. You were defending this point so by definition you also said it.

[Sammeth.]

I wasn't defending any point, I was stating you shouldn't say something is fact when it isn't. I do happen to agree that removing the post count increase would be pointless, but its just the principle of saying something is fact when it isn't. Thats the point I was trying to get across.

[Black_Apalachi]

Oh right, so you were just being pedantic for the sake of it regardless of the thread topic. And I got a -rep because of it. Cheers (Y)

[Sammeth.]

Oh right, so you were just being pedantic for the sake of it regardless of the thread topic. And I got a -rep because of it. Cheers (Y)
No I wasn't being pedantic, I was pointing out a flaw in his post which is what this whole thread is based on. If its going to be a proper debate, it may as well be done properly. It was on the topic of the thread. Getting -rep is clearly my fault and not your own for not reading properly :S

[FlyingJesus]

He wasn't being pedantic, it's extremely bad form to state something as fact when it is isn't, especially in a discussion that deals with changes and how they might affect things. If you think that sort of thing is fine then here's a FACT*: you not being a part of this discussion would make it far more intelligent and beneficial in outcome.


*Not a fact but let's ignore that huh, after all it'd be pedantic to quibble

[hah]

i cantbelieve all this is really about weather or not peoples posts count increase in welcome forums or not

[Black_Apalachi]

No I wasn't being pedantic, I was pointing out a flaw in his post which is what this whole thread is based on. If its going to be a proper debate, it may as well be done properly. It was on the topic of the thread. Getting -rep is clearly my fault and not your own for not reading properly :S

The whole point is that I did read the previous posts which is what led me to believe you were challenging Dan's post in favour of the opposing statement which had been made previously in the thread. The point is, it is a fact that you can't make people post anywhere.


He wasn't being pedantic, it's extremely bad form to state something as fact when it is isn't, especially in a discussion that deals with changes and how they might affect things. If you think that sort of thing is fine then here's a FACT*: you not being a part of this discussion would make it far more intelligent and beneficial in outcome.


*Not a fact but let's ignore that huh, after all it'd be pedantic to quibble

No mate, your posts in this thread essentially consist of you whining about people using the Welcome thread to welcome new members (wow shock horror) and then going on about insignificant details like the last time the issue was raised. I actually contributed to the debate with a well thought out response which, as far as I'm concerned you basically overlooked. Not to mention virtually just completely dismissing Dan's opinion based on pedantic details like a single word. Your argument with him isn't even relevant to the discussion. Then you have the cheek to tell me it would be more beneficial if I didn't take part?

I tell you what, the whole forum would be better off without busy-bodies like you needlessly protesting pointless non-problematic issues.


i cantbelieve all this is really about weather or not peoples posts count increase in welcome forums or not

Tell me about it!

[Hecktix]

If only we could have discussions of this depth across the board eh?

[FlyingJesus]

No mate, your posts in this thread essentially consist of you whining about people using the Welcome thread to welcome new members

Nice skim reading, I especially like the part where you seem to have totally disregarded all the points mentioned as to why this is a good idea in order to just attempt to attack me.


and then going on about insignificant details like the last time the issue was raised.

That was only in reply to you saying it had never been brought up before, which you were trying to use as an argument against the thread, so it was hardly insignificant.


I actually contributed to the debate with a well thought out response which, as far as I'm concerned you basically overlooked.

Which points have I overlooked? I apologise if I truly have, but as far as I can see the only times I haven't replied to you directly have been when a point's already been covered previously.


Not to mention virtually just completely dismissing Dan's opinion based on pedantic details like a single word.

This I simply haven't done, and I'll thank you not to make such comments about me and how I work in discussions.


Then you have the cheek to tell me it would be more beneficial if I didn't take part?

No no, that wasn't a fact remember ;) In any case, it was only to be supposed as any sort of view, whether fact or opinion, if you really do think that stating an opinionated prediction as fact is fine. I'm sure you're not so foolish as to do that, so the view that you shouldn't take part is not one that has come to light.


I tell you what, the whole forum would be better off without busy-bodies like you needlessly protesting pointless non-problematic issues.

The use of "would" there is disguising opinion as fact, how odd that you do that right after exactly such an action has been criticised. You'd probably do well not to make this personal, I understand it's not much fun when you're trying to stand up for behaviour totally unbefitting an otherwise intelligent discussion and being called out for it, but it's simply not good debate etiquette.

If Sam hadn't corrected Dan then those not in the know might have believed on his word that what he was saying was fact, and if we hadn't corrected you on your following post then it could have skewed peoples' view on what Sam had meant (which may have had a negative impact on how people see him as a member of discussions, and if we were to believe you then Sam's entire opinion was on the other "side" as it were so it benefits you and your argument that we did correct you), so both were entirely justified.

[Black_Apalachi]

I'd spend time replying to you properly but most of that right there is completely hypocritical and you're clearly out to cause arguments which you seem to be focusing on a lot more than the actual thread topic, as you once again overlooked the part of my post that is most relevant to the topic, so it's just not worth it.

[FlyingJesus]

Other than "(wow shock horror)" I didn't leave out anything you said to me there. I'm quite clearly not looking to cause arguments, I'm trying to stop people making false claims, and I asked questions of you as I really do want to know what points you think I haven't replied to, so that if there are any I can do so. Of course if people make disparaging remarks about me and my methods I'll respond, but I haven't done so aggressively and have instead simply replied to each part of your post.

As for being hypocritical, I'm not sure quite what you mean as to be hypocritical I'd have to first rebuke someone, and the only place I can see that having happened is in (rightly) saying that people shouldn't post opinions as facts, something I can't imagine I've done. I invite you (just as I invited you to show me what points I'd missed out on) to show me how and where I've been a hypocrite, for again it seems you are simply attacking me with false allegations.

[Black_Apalachi]

Ermmm.... you are being hypocritical because you were the one who began the personal attacking and now you're just trying to make yourself out to be an innocent victim. I've fallen into these traps before and got myself into trouble so I won't be arguing with you as you have once again proven you'd rather argue off topic with me than focus on the thread topic and I have now got two -reps for essentially disagreeing with you. Good night.


... If you think that sort of thing is fine then here's a FACT*: you not being a part of this discussion would make it far more intelligent and beneficial in outcome.


*Not a fact but let's ignore that huh, after all it'd be pedantic to quibble

[FlyingJesus]

No no, that wasn't a fact remember ;) In any case, it was only to be supposed as any sort of view, whether fact or opinion, if you really do think that stating an opinionated prediction as fact is fine. I'm sure you're not so foolish as to do that, so the view that you shouldn't take part is not one that has come to light.

Hi remember me?

I have tried to get back on topic by asking what points you feel I've missed out on but as this hasn't been addressed there is nothing for me to reply to other than your attempts at making me look a villain. I welcome all opposition as long as it's well written and of clear thought.

[Grig]

I haven't read through all the numerous pages. But this is a superb suggestion, people who just post in there for post account are just annoying and there are often the same few.

Generally something well defined should be that post count increases when there is some productive disucussion going on with views and opinions etc. and not just a simple "hello :)" that increases post count. I think people will still post in there, those who want new members to feel welcome and not those who just post for the hell of raising post count.

So very nice idea, I'm fully behind you on this :D!

[StefanWolves]

Hi remember me?

I have tried to get back on topic by asking what points you feel I've missed out on but as this hasn't been addressed there is nothing for me to reply to other than your attempts at making me look a villain. I welcome all opposition as long as it's well written and of clear thought.
May I just add my two pennies towards you please?

You have got to be the biggest immature, unpleasant, and biggest hypocrite on this forum. You flame me for giving a good idea of limiting the amount of threads guests can view, to encourage them to sign up. You told me to provide proof, which I could not do as I wouldn't know, but I provided examples of it working on other forums. Then, you have the audacity to come into this thread and support this pathetic idea, by saying 'OH YEAH, IT WILL WORK, IT MUST!! ITLL MAKE PEOPLE POST IN OTHER AREAS ON THE FORUM!!!", without having any proof? I ask you this, how can you guarantee that it'll work? PROOF please?

And if you say ''WELL WE WON'T KNOW UNTIL WE TRY!!'', then I'd laugh in your face.

Until you provide proof I am not buying this idea at all.

I like it now the boot is on the other foot now. :)

[-:Undertaker:-]

If they want that higher post count, what do you imagine they would have to do? Hint: the answer is post elsewhere.

What part of "none of us know" did you not get in his post?

They wouldn't though, Habbox Forum needs to stop acting as if the members are as loyal as glue because as proven by the recent decline thats simply not true, instead of trying to make rules/regulations for every small thing and trying to force them to post elsewhere, leave them be.


The reasons I think it might is because if they can't post there to increase their post count they will post elsewhere on the forum to get their post count up. If they bothered enough to register one would assume they want to keep posting so will try their best to make sure they get through the newly registered member stage. But thats not to say it definately will. Thats why I have reason to beleive this, just like you have reasons to beleive what you beleive. The point I was actually making is that you state your opinion like its fact, when it isn't fact. You really annoy me. Thats a fact.

I think my opinions are right most of the time yes, thats why they are my opinions and as I see them as correct, I will tend to state them as fact.


I wasn't defending any point, I was stating you shouldn't say something is fact when it isn't. I do happen to agree that removing the post count increase would be pointless, but its just the principle of saying something is fact when it isn't. Thats the point I was trying to get across.

I never said it was a fact, or didn't intend it to be. In my opinion it would hurt the forum, but as I thought we all knew how to debate properly in this forum I thought I wouldn't have to put the childish example of ""MY OPINION"" at the bottom of my every post, but obviously I do.


**MY OPINIONS!!**

[FlyingJesus]

You have got to be the biggest immature, unpleasant, and biggest hypocrite on this forum. You flame me for giving a good idea of limiting the amount of threads guests can view, to encourage them to sign up. You told me to provide proof, which I could not do as I wouldn't know, but I provided examples of it working on other forums. Then, you have the audacity to come into this thread and support this pathetic idea, by saying 'OH YEAH, IT WILL WORK, IT MUST!! ITLL MAKE PEOPLE POST IN OTHER AREAS ON THE FORUM!!!", without having any proof? I ask you this, how can you guarantee that it'll work? PROOF please?

So you haven't read what I've said at all then? The last few pages have been mostly about how there is no certainty that people will post elsewhere, so don't start putting words in my mouth as that is slander and should not be tolerated. As for proof, if you'd care to read the first post you may notice that the preferred outcome of this would be to stop people from using welcome threads in the same way they used to use forum games - that is, for the easy raising of a high post count. Taking away the post count would quite obviously do that, and the proof is in the fact that if you do not get a post count for posting there, people cannot post there for that purpose. It's really quite simple, and you needn't get angry just because I shot your idea to shreds. I've done nothing immature or hypocritical, so you may stop that sort of talk right away.


They wouldn't though, Habbox Forum needs to stop acting as if the members are as loyal as glue because as proven by the recent decline thats simply not true, instead of trying to make rules/regulations for every small thing and trying to force them to post elsewhere, leave them be.

I've stated plenty of times in this thread that I would rather see even a small number of these people posting elsewhere (as is fairly likely to happen, unless they're here solely for the welcome threads which I can't see being the case) and others leave than have a multitude of pointless posts which truly don't serve to properly welcome people - see previous posts for examples. Of course I can't possibly hope that taking away the post count in welcome threads will instantly turn all of those spamming out generic copied messages into well spoken debators, but quite clearly if they can't get their post count up there, those who are there just for the counts will have to go elsewhere to do it - or give up, which as I've said before won't be any great loss to us as that is not the sort of person we need here.


I think my opinions are right most of the time yes, thats why they are my opinions and as I see them as correct, I will tend to state them as fact.

It's entirely fair that you believe your opinions to be right, of course they wouldn't be your opinions if you didn't, but stating them as fact is bad debate etiquette whatever your intention.


I never said it was a fact, or didn't intend it to be. In my opinion it would hurt the forum, but as I thought we all knew how to debate properly in this forum I thought I wouldn't have to put the childish example of ""MY OPINION"" at the bottom of my every post, but obviously I do.

Clearly we don't all know how to debate properly if some of us are wanting to call opinions facts, Dan. It's not childish at all to say that you have an opinion, and frankly you putting things such as "WILL NOT" in bold certainly does look like you intend it to be taken as fact.