Thought Police- Right or wrong?

[Niall!]

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/02/obscene-us-manga-collector-jailed-6-months/

Basically, this man was jailed for 6 months, his life ruined forever over a few drawings, not photos, of underage girls having sex. Now, was it right to arrest this man, bearing in mind he has never had a criminal record and has held a steady job for 12 years, just because of his personal tastes?

I say no. Arresting him on the grounds that he COULD assault a young girl is idiocy. It's like me owning a kitchen knife and being arrested because I COULD stab somebody with it.

Discuss.

[Spiffing]

At least he had the decency not to actually look at real pictures and draw them instead. I just think that's plain harsh.

[GommeInc]

Incredibly stupid. I have read about photographers (and seen their photographs) that took photos of (ex-)war zones like Vietnam, some of which include naked children. It's art. What's next, arresting writers who write about children porn or deeply disturbing texts where they're not writing personally? Stupid :/

[Stryderman]

The case began in 2006, when customs officials intercepted and opened a package from Japan addressed to Handley. Seven books of manga inside contained cartoon drawings of minors engaged in sexually explicit acts and bestiality.


Yeh but people buy them books because they are very collectable also they get ideas and inspirations for drawings of their own. Fair enough if it was actualy photos of girls but its not :S

[Misawa]

Incredibly stupid. I have read about photographers (and seen their photographs) that took photos of (ex-)war zones like Vietnam, some of which include naked children. It's art. What's next, arresting writers who write about children porn or deeply disturbing texts where they're not writing personally? Stupid :/

I wouldn't say war zone photos like Vietnam could be called "art", more relics of shock value. There is one photo in particular of the Vietnam war with a naked girl walking, and that became a symbol of the war, as did another of a man being shot, with the photo being taken half a second before the bullet was fired. Not art, just poignant shock journalism, but yes, I see what you mean.

People can draw what they like. If I drew a picture of someone killing someone, does that mean I should be arrested? That is art. Should the writer of Lolita be arrested for the content of the book? It is personal freedom to do what you like artistically. That's what art is - personal expression. Like, despite what the idiot named Spike Lee says, I can write the 'n' word as may times as I like in a screenplay, and it wouldn't be racist, because it's my freedom as a writer to write whatever the hell I want, just like it's my freedom as a film-maker to kill as many people as I see fit in a film. It doesn't mean I want to kill people in real life. It's artistic expression. The "law" is simply void of any sense these days.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Wrong, we have thought police everywhere now anyway. If you say anything against immigration you are racist, dont support militant gay rights then your homophobic. Its totally stupid and this case proves it futher.

[Smits]

This really is stupid.

Ok, so the guy has a sick taste in manga, but it's all fiction, fantasies and nothing more. I'm sure he's had them for long enough, yet he's never done anything. Theres no way you can say that he's going to abuse a child, just because he's seen drawings of it. What a shambles.

[Jordy]

While you could say it's art or something, I'd say that's besides the point. If it stops people looking at the real thing that's surely a good thing? I never understood what good could come of banning underage hentai a few years back. You have to be a bit sick and twisted to look at it, but what's the problem if it stops them from looking at the real thing? It's censorship tbh.

[Niall!]

I'm a tool that thinks killing in video games will lead to real murder bawwww

This is exactly the same thing, different material.

[Jordy]

This is exactly the same thing, different material.What on earth are you on about? I have never said anything along those lines?

[Niall!]

What on earth are you on about? I have never said anything along those lines?

Allow me to translate for you.


While you could say it's art or something, I'd say that's besides the point. If it stops people doing the real thing that's surely a good thing? I never understood what good could come of banning violent video games a few years back. You have to be a bit sick and twisted to play them, but what's the problem if it stops them from murdering people in real life? It's censorship tbh.

Your argument is invalid.

[Jordy]

Allow me to translate for you.



Your argument is invalid.Not at all. I think underage hentai should be legal seeing as it serves as a good alternative to child pornography. If underage hentai (Which doesn't harm anyone), stops people hunting for the real porn, I believe that is a good thing. However I also think you have to be a bit twisted to look at underage hentai, but it should be legal.

That's why I think banning underage hentai is censorship. I also said that the fact it's "art" is besides the point seeing as underage hentai is effective in deterring people from real underage pornography.

While it is irrelevant to this subject, I am not against video games in anyway, I've never said or believed they encourage violence. However killing people is slightly different to looking at child pornography it has to be said (Both incredibly wrong though).

[Misawa]

I am STRONGLY against the notion that violence in the media, i.e. films and video games influences children to committ acts of violence. I am a believer that you already have to have a screw loose to be influenced, in which case but they are the least of someone's worries.

If film could influence someone to kill, then I would be a serial killer. I watched my first horror film at age 4. I was renting Alien Resurrection over and over by 8 at the video rental store. I have seen thousands of extremely violent and disturbing films and I thrive on them. I worked for 6 months as a forensic photographer and took pictures of suicides and RTCs 5 days a week. I've only killed two people. I am a living, breathing testament to perfect sanity under the viewing of the grotesque.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Video games/movies that are violent do not create killers, people need to take some god damn responsibility for once and stop blaming everything but themselves. If you kill somebody, you took that choice to kill them - not GTA, not Scream or any other movie or game.

[Japan]

Looking at naked children having sex is, in my eyes, child pornography. Doesn't matter if they are 2D cartoons. No normal person would ever feel the need to draw/look at things like that.
Anyone who says this man has done nothing wrong is simply advocating pedophilia.

[Arch]

I've just skimmed through what was said in this thread and i believe that it is harsh. Its sick that he does like it but i mean its personal taste and aslong as he doesn't act on it i should be fine.

[Tash.]

Looking at naked children having sex is, in my eyes, child pornography. Doesn't matter if they are 2D cartoons. No normal person would ever feel the need to draw/look at things like that.
Anyone who says this man has done nothing wrong is simply advocating pedophilia.

I have to agree with this. Although looking at this is not as bad as looking at the real thing you have to question whether or not he would in future. No normal person would want to look at even a cartoon image of these things.

[kk.]

And what about the people who painted pictures before the 21st century? Or the sculptures of people and children wearing just a leaf? Or the two cherubs?

Ridiculous.

[Black_Apalachi]

Not at all. I think underage hentai should be legal seeing as it serves as a good alternative to child pornography. If underage hentai (Which doesn't harm anyone), stops people hunting for the real porn, I believe that is a good thing. However I also think you have to be a bit twisted to look at underage hentai, but it should be legal.

That's why I think banning underage hentai is censorship. I also said that the fact it's "art" is besides the point seeing as underage hentai is effective in deterring people from real underage pornography.

While it is irrelevant to this subject, I am not against video games in anyway, I've never said or believed they encourage violence. However killing people is slightly different to looking at child pornography it has to be said (Both incredibly wrong though).

That is the worst reason ever to support this man's case. Well, I see what you mean but 'alternative' is an awful word to use because you are basically saying anyone who does this is only not watching real child porn because it's illegal. People like that are no better than the people who actually watch the real thing and if there was a way to point out such people, then I would expect them to be punished in the same way.

I can't say I disagree with the points raised earlier in the thread regarding freedom of expression but still, can you ever imagine somebody possessing such material but also thinking the real thing is disgusting? As Jordy says, it's merely an alternative but that doesn't mean it should be an excuse.

[Catzsy]

Freedom of speech & artistic licence is one thing. Yes taboo subjects are touched upon in films and books but not as graphically as this.


This is what he was jailed for:
A U.S. comic book collector is being sentenced to six months in prison after pleading guilty to importing and possessing Japanese manga books depicting illustrations of child sex and bestiality.
Read More http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/02/obscene-us-manga-collector-jailed-6-months/#ixzz0fnL2eOX8

I don't think it is acceptable either and in fact could be used to aid in the 'grooming' of children as if they see in in 'cartoon form' they maybe persuaded that it is in fact okay.

[kk.]

so he imported manga, not drawing it? im confused :S

[alexxxxx]

this isn't really 'thought police,' but i think some japanese manga a bit, well sick. In france they love it and they sell loads of it, but I've seen some in bookshops there where it's a bit of a... questionable taste. But at the end of it, how can you prove that the drawings are of underage people? They are drawings not people.:S

[Black_Apalachi]

so he imported manga, not drawing it? im confused :S

He collected it and maybe drew it I'm not sure. Doesn't make a difference


this isn't really 'thought police,' but i think some japanese manga a bit, well sick. In france they love it and they sell loads of it, but I've seen some in bookshops there where it's a bit of a... questionable taste. But at the end of it, how can you prove that the drawings are of underage people? They are drawings not people.:S

I thought that. I didn't think it would be too hard to win this in court. I mean you could even go as far as saying it's just a drawing and so how you perceive it is up to you.

[Wig44.]

Looking at naked children having sex is, in my eyes, child pornography. Doesn't matter if they are 2D cartoons. No normal person would ever feel the need to draw/look at things like that.
Anyone who says this man has done nothing wrong is simply advocating pedophilia.

So black and white. 'Anyone who says thi man has done nothing wrong is simply advocating pedophilia'

=

'If you aren't an apple you must be a banana!'

[kk.]

He collected it and maybe drew it I'm not sure. Doesn't make a difference



I thought that. I didn't think it would be too hard to win this in court. I mean you could even go as far as saying it's just a drawing and so how you perceive it is up to you.
Quite. It's an interesting dilemma I have because I see importing tha manga drawings as illegal, and so should be punished, but being jailed for drawing it I think it's wrong :P

[Black_Apalachi]

Why? Surely if anything is going to be punishable, it would be the mere possession of it?

[Bun]

but then by drawing it, he then possessed it?

[kk.]

Why? Surely if anything is going to be punishable, it would be the mere possession of it?
I never replied :P

that's my problem, I see imprting the stuff wrong, but drawing it not, it's strange lol

[GommeInc]

I wouldn't say war zone photos like Vietnam could be called "art", more relics of shock value. There is one photo in particular of the Vietnam war with a naked girl walking, and that became a symbol of the war, as did another of a man being shot, with the photo being taken half a second before the bullet was fired. Not art, just poignant shock journalism, but yes, I see what you mean.
Depends how you look at it. In a photography sense, it's a type of art form (historical/portrait/war photography), but it is a type of relic of shock value, both are acceptable :P I think you're talking about the two I've seen, they were in an exhibition in London many years ago, each picture had came with an analysis talking about contrast and so forth (the artistic/photographic side of the photo) and the story behind it and story of the subject (historical).

Anyway, that's going off topic :P

It's crude, but there's a line between reality (two girls actually doing it) and what we have here, which is just art with shock value, like people who write or draw fanfiction, some of the things you read are quite foul, and the art is no better. Mystery books usually have people being raped, shot down or killed in weird, puzzling ways, doesn't mean the writer is a sicko :/

[HotelUser]

I standby jailing the man. Having thoughts of sexual behaviour with underaged girls is one thing, drawing it for all the world to see is another.

[ChickenFaces]

I laughed irl when I read this. To be honest, if the guy wants to draw pictures of underage girls having sex then let him! Doesn't make it a reality. I bet you if some famous arist did something like this his art would be praised. No one would think anything of it simply because its by a famous person. Crazy world we live in. =/