You know this massacre thing...?

[immense]

Why do people need to keep guns? I can understand farmers but why do people like taxi drivers need guns? Sure he has a license and what not... but how do you get one? Is it just if you have an interest in shooting as a sport and can prove that you're not a weirdo?

lol confused :S why should anyone bar farmers have a gun

[Jordy]

Shooting/Hunting is a sport, he lived in the countryside so it's not too surprising he had a gun licence, they're quite strict about how you keep the gun etc though, they don't just hand them out. Plus this guy was pretty normal beforehand, there was no reason to suspect he would cause some sort of massacre.

[immense]

Yeah, I gathered that he was normal beforehand. We are animals though, we can all flip. I don't think anyone should be able to keep a gun :S If he hadn't kept one 12 innocent people would still be alive today.

[Jordy]

He could still obtain one illegally or just cause a massacre using some other weapon. I'm afraid no laws need changing, there's only so much you can do to prevent somebody going mad and killing people, in the UK things like this rarely happen as we have some of the harshest gun related laws in the world, an outright ban would be a step too far.

Here's a bit about the gun license for you...

Under Home Office guidelines, gun licences are only issued if a person has legitimate sporting or work-related reasons for owning a gun. Since 1946, self-defence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defence) has not been considered a valid reason to own a gun. The current licensing procedure involves: positive verification of identity, two referees of verifiable good character who have known the applicant for at least two years (and who may themselves be interviewed and/or investigated as part of the certification), approval of the application by the applicant's own family doctor, an inspection of the premises and cabinet where guns will be kept and a face-to-face interview by a Firearms Enquiry Officer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_Enquiry_Officer) (FEO) also known as a Firearms Liaison Officer (FLO). A thorough background check of the applicant is then made by Special Branch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Branch) on behalf of the firearms licensing department. Only when all these stages have been satisfactorily completed will a licence be issued.

[immense]

I know it's not a regular thing but it has happened enough for it to be a concern. Anybody who has passed these 'tests' which I imagine anybody can. It's not that hard to portray yourself as a serious character and say you have a bolted shed to keep them in.

[Jordy]

You need references, they have to see the cabinet you store them in and you are also required to have membership to a sports club unless you're a farmer in which case you can use them for pest control.

I really don't see a concern here, just a tragedy.

[immense]

How hard is it to join a sports club and have a cabinet. I could do all of these and easily get references. Why should I be trusted with the ability to play God?

[Swastika]

He could may well of gotten the guns illegally?
There are plenty of illegal firearms on the streets of Britain, how else would teenagers be shooting each other?
Guns were always going to be invented no matter what, same as knifes, crossbows, swords etc - its just one of those things.
Britain is probably one of the most safety countries out there when it comes to gun crime, that's not what can be said about the United States for example, if your so anti-gun then you should probably count yourself lucky for living in the UK.

I hope England doesn't take on the gun culture like America, they say we're 10 years behind the US haha.

[Jordy]

How hard is it to join a sports club and have a cabinet. I could do all of these and easily get references. Why should I be trusted with the ability to play God?Probably quite difficult and expensive I imagine. They're not going to let some gangster join a shooting club who never returns.

I'm afraid everyone is trusted with the ability to play God, perhaps all sharp metal objects should be banned because you could stab someone or all chemicals should be banned because you could make a bomb.

[immense]

Probably quite difficult and expensive I imagine. They're not going to let some gangster join a shooting club who never returns.

I'm afraid everyone is trusted with the ability to play God, perhaps all sharp metal objects should be banned because you could stab someone or all chemicals should be banned because you could make a bomb.

I'm not saying they should be banned. I think the system we have at the moment is OK, the checks just need to be more rigorous and owners more careful. Living in Devon, I see firearms regularly (on farms etc) - someone with the wrong intentions could swipe these with ease. They're literally just lazing around on Land Rover bonnets. So many of them go missing, I dread to think where they could be now and what they're being used for.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I think we should all be allowed to keep guns generally (following the American style system in the states where it is allowed). If somebody whos a total nutcase/a criminal wants a gun - they will get a gun. With gun bans/making them hard to get for the law-abiding people, then you only make sure that the only people left with guns are the bad guys leaving the good guys defenceless. In this country its the criminals > law abiding majority in terms of rights.

[MrPinkPanther]

I think we should all be allowed to keep guns generally (following the American style system in the states where it is allowed). If somebody whos a total nutcase/a criminal wants a gun - they will get a gun. With gun bans/making them hard to get for the law-abiding people, then you only make sure that the only people left with guns are the bad guys leaving the good guys defenceless. In this country its the criminals > law abiding majority in terms of rights.

Whilst this is true for orchestrated crimes, most violent crimes are committed in a fit of passion. Therefore if people do have access to a gun in their household it becomes extremely dangerous, sure they will have knives or perhaps a baseball bat but it is much easier to escape someone with a knife or a bat than a gun. This is exactly why the number of shootings are much higher in America.

The number of firearms legally owned does correlate to the number of firearm related deaths, hold on I'll get some statistics:
http://www.gun-control-network.org/International.gif

[Tintinnabulate]

I think we should all be allowed to keep guns generally (following the American style system in the states where it is allowed). If somebody whos a total nutcase/a criminal wants a gun - they will get a gun. With gun bans/making them hard to get for the law-abiding people, then you only make sure that the only people left with guns are the bad guys leaving the good guys defenceless. In this country its the criminals > law abiding majority in terms of rights.

Are you crazy? If you give everyone a gun, it would lead to more gun crime. If someone gets in an argument after getting drunk or something, they might end up shooting the person. Do you really want this country to be like America? - more deaths etc.

Less people who own guns = less chances of people getting shot.

Its a minority who commit crimes such as yesterday's. He has owned a gun legally for 12+ years and unfortunately something terrible made him flip. However, others shouldn't be punished for it. UK has one of the strictest laws when it comes to trying to get a gun. You need to show them where it will be stored, why you need it, references from doctors etc, they check your criminal record and it expires every 5 years.

I would say Farmers use it more in a bad way. When I was going Duke of Edinburgh, this farmer was crazily walking around with a gun and shouting at us to not go through his farm even though its a public footpath. It meant we had to take a different route because of a crazy farmer.

[Swastika]

Are you crazy? If you give everyone a gun, it would lead to more gun crime. If someone gets in an argument after getting drunk or something, they might end up shooting the person. Do you really want this country to be like America? - more deaths etc.

Less people who own guns = less chances of people getting shot.

Its a minority who commit crimes such as yesterday's. He has owned a gun legally for 12+ years and unfortunately something terrible made him flip. However, others shouldn't be punished for it. UK has one of the strictest laws when it comes to trying to get a gun. You need to show them where it will be stored, why you need it, references from doctors etc, they check your criminal record and it expires every 5 years.

I would say Farmers use it more in a bad way. When I was going Duke of Edinburgh, this farmer was crazily walking around with a gun and shouting at us to not go through his farm even though its a public footpath. It meant we had to take a different route because of a crazy farmer.
LOL yeah, farmers openly threaten people with their shotguns and stuff.
I remember when me and some mates were on the footpath out his back (public btw) and it was night and because we're teenagers with our hoods and what not, he shouted out his windows and aimed his rifle out lol. Needless to say we ran like holy hell.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Whilst this is true for orchestrated crimes, most violent crimes are committed in a fit of passion. Therefore if people do have access to a gun in their household it becomes extremely dangerous, sure they will have knives or perhaps a baseball bat but it is much easier to escape someone with a knife or a bat than a gun. This is exactly why the number of shootings are much higher in America.

The number of firearms legally owned does correlate to the number of firearm related deaths, hold on I'll get some statistics:

I would agree but surely that also means why should ban other dangerous objects also in the name of safety(?). The law-abiding people should be allowed to have guns on their property provided they are kept safe and secure (not carried on the streets) or at least we should allow some form of self-defence where if you step onto another persons property intent on causing them harm, you loose your innocence/right to safety.


Are you crazy? If you give everyone a gun, it would lead to more gun crime. If someone gets in an argument after getting drunk or something, they might end up shooting the person. Do you really want this country to be like America? - more deaths etc.

Less people who own guns = less chances of people getting shot.

Then lets also ban stanley knives, glass bottles/cups, knives in general, baseball bats axes, chainsaws etc just incase somebody gets angry whilst their chopping their logs/having a drink. I would agree with the statement that the less guns there are, the less people get shot and why? - because the criminals have the monopoly on the weapons. The law-abiding people are defenceless against the ones with weapons. The ones in the wrong will always get hold of weapons no matter how many restrictions you put on gun controls, so lets have the normally defenceless armed against the bad guys out there.

[Special]

it's a hunting licence but i guess he took it one step to far haa

[DAMI3N]

Shooting/Hunting is a sport, he lived in the countryside so it's not too surprising he had a gun licence, they're quite strict about how you keep the gun etc though, they don't just hand them out. Plus this guy was pretty normal beforehand, there was no reason to suspect he would cause some sort of massacre.
.
This pretty much sums it

[Tintinnabulate]

I would agree but surely that also means why should ban other dangerous objects also in the name of safety(?). The law-abiding people should be allowed to have guns on their property provided they are kept safe and secure (not carried on the streets) or at least we should allow some form of self-defence where if you step onto another persons property intent on causing them harm, you loose your innocence/right to safety.



Then lets also ban stanley knives, glass bottles/cups, knives in general, baseball bats axes, chainsaws etc just incase somebody gets angry whilst their chopping their logs/having a drink. I would agree with the statement that the less guns there are, the less people get shot and why? - because the criminals have the monopoly on the weapons. The law-abiding people are defenceless against the ones with weapons. The ones in the wrong will always get hold of weapons no matter how many restrictions you put on gun controls, so lets have the normally defenceless armed against the bad guys out there.

Defenceless? Oh yeah lets all carry guns in our pockets incase we get attacked. :rolleyes:
Someone could easily shoot you and your gun will be useless.

More guns = more chances of people getting shot. Its obvious and look at America which is a good example of this.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Defenceless? Oh yeah lets all carry guns in our pockets incase we get attacked. :rolleyes:
Someone could easily shoot you and your gun will be useless.

More guns = more chances of people getting shot. Its obvious and look at America which is a good example of this.

Well thats why I did say it would only be allowed on your property, not to be carried around. Although i'm discussing it with Jordy and I do think this is a last option, the real way to get crime down and protect the law abiding is to over double the prison capacity and make sentences longer + i'd personally want the death penalty introduced but thats another bag of chips.

[Tintinnabulate]

Well thats why I did say it would only be allowed on your property, not to be carried around. Although i'm discussing it with Jordy and I do think this is a last option, the real way to get crime down and protect the law abiding is to over double the prison capacity and make sentences longer + i'd personally want the death penalty introduced but thats another bag of chips.

So what if someone like the person yesterday decided to take their gun off the property and go around shooting people on the street, the gun the victim owns will be quite useless sitting in their property...

And people can be wrongly sentenced of murder - its happened before - and its simply not worth it. There have been reports that life sentence in jail can make the prisoner go crazy and a lot of them try and commit suicide.

[-:Undertaker:-]

So what if someone like the person yesterday decided to take their gun off the property and go around shooting people on the street, the gun the victim owns will be quite useless sitting in their property...

And people can be wrongly sentenced of murder - its happened before - and its simply not worth it. There have been reports that life sentence in jail can make the prisoner go crazy and a lot of them try and commit suicide.

Then you have a massacre - but thats a very rare event with the law-abiding, meanwhile the criminals who arent afraid to use guns have them in their possession and will use them if need be. As for wrongly sentenced, the penalty would only be for crimes that are damn right obvious (for example solid DNA evidence, clear CCTV footage and/or various witnesses at the scene of the murder/rape).

[Tintinnabulate]

Then you have a massacre - but thats a very rare event with the law-abiding, meanwhile the criminals who arent afraid to use guns have them in their possession and will use them if need be. As for wrongly sentenced, the penalty would only be for crimes that are damn right obvious (for example solid DNA evidence, clear CCTV footage and/or various witnesses at the scene of the murder/rape).

Death sentence isn't making them suffer for life for their crimes - which is what they should be doing.

Like I said, not letting everyone own a gun is better than letting everyone own one.
Criminals with guns who aren't afraid now wont really care if people aren't allowed it outside their homes.

[Swastika]

More guns = black market = money = drugs = gangs

America is a rock solid justification of this theory.
You can't walk two feet in america without seeing a gang member.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Death sentence isn't making them suffer for life for their crimes - which is what they should be doing.

Like I said, not letting everyone own a gun is better than letting everyone own one.
Criminals with guns who aren't afraid now wont really care if people aren't allowed it outside their homes.

I wouldnt say sitting in a jail with a gym, an xbox and all other various facilities is suffering.


More guns = black market = money = drugs = gangs

America is a rock solid justification of this theory.
You can't walk two feet in america without seeing a gang member.

Legalising guns to a degree doesnt effect the black market, the criminals can buy guns off the black market regardless of the legality of gun controls because thats the only place they can get them - legalise guns with controls and its still the only place criminals can get hold of guns because they'd be knocked back for gun ownership on the legal system. The only difference not allowing the law-abiding to have guns for defence makes is that you leave them unprotected, whereas the criminals always will have access to a black market whether the law abiding majority can buy guns legally or not.

[Stephen!]

Didn't he have a huge ass sniper rifle? I doubt farmers would keep guns like that. Only simple shotguns I presume.

[Jordy]

Didn't he have a huge ass sniper rifle? I doubt farmers would keep guns like that. Only simple shotguns I presume.He had a legal Shotgun and a Rifle (Scoped) it's been confirmed. Presumably he was a member of a shooting club or something, I haven't seen anything on that though.

[Swastika]

Legalising guns to a degree doesnt effect the black market, the criminals can buy guns off the black market regardless of the legality of gun controls because thats the only place they can get them - legalise guns with controls and its still the only place criminals can get hold of guns because they'd be knocked back for gun ownership on the legal system. The only difference not allowing the law-abiding to have guns for defence makes is that you leave them unprotected, whereas the criminals always will have access to a black market whether the law abiding majority can buy guns legally or not.
Yes but with more legally owned guns around, obviously more and more will go onto the black market and hundreds of thousands would be in illegal circulation. Its inevitable that legally owned firearms will get stolen if there is an increase in the number of British people owning guns at home.
You say you want a legal system like the United States, with the death penalty and so forth?
Do you want our country ending up like the US? Because that's what would happen, neighbourhoods full of different gang sets using the illegal firearms as protection.
It seems abit farfetched i agree, but that's the reality - if more people have legally obtained firearms, there will be a rise in illegally obtained firearms resulting in bloodshed across our nation and estates being rife with gun-crime.


Didn't he have a huge ass sniper rifle? I doubt farmers would keep guns like that. Only simple shotguns I presume.
These simple shotguns you speak of, would blow your head off. :P

[Stephen!]

Lol, shows that I don't watch the news. Though he had a 50cal or something

[Tintinnabulate]

I wouldnt say sitting in a jail with a gym, an xbox and all other various facilities is suffering.

Not all criminals get that treatment.

You completely ignore this point:

Criminals with guns who aren't afraid now wont really care if people aren't allowed it outside their homes.

[RedStratocas]

You can't walk two feet in america without seeing a gang member.

i wish i could post audio of my laughter, as lol doesnt do this statement justice.

[Swastika]

Lol, shows that I don't watch the news. Though he had a 50cal or something
Lol cod style, he had a throwing knife and everything.


i wish i could post audio of my laughter, as lol doesnt do this statement justice.
It was a sentence to basically describe how much of a joke the yank firearm mentality is, guns = gangs.
English people don't want to end up with a country which replicates the USA, most urban areas in the states have gang members, fact.
Your from NY, you should know this.

[Soy]

i pack two guns with me all the time

[RedStratocas]

Lol cod style, he had a throwing knife and everything.


It was a sentence to basically describe how much of a joke the yank firearm mentality is, guns = gangs.
English people don't want to end up with a country which replicates the USA, most urban areas in the states have gang members, fact.
Your from NY, you should know this.

youre right, i do live in new york, so i think i'd know the situation here better than someone half way across the world. while it is undeniable we have a serious firearm problem, its pretty ridiculous to say that everyone who owns a firearm is in a gang. and most urban areas EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD have gangs. its a typical symptom of highly populated areas. so your "fact" was incomplete. the reason why there's more gun violence in american urban areas is because there are actually guns available -- if the same availability existed everywhere else it would be exactly the same. the mentality is the same everywhere, the only thing that is different is what tools are used.

yeah yeah i understand we do have exponentially more gun deaths than any other country, but suggesting that you cant turn a corner without seeing a gang member is just dumb. in ratio theres no more gang members here than anywhere else.

[Moh]

No disrespect to the victims or anything, but this was just a one off. I mean sure, there's still a bit of gun crime in the UK, but it's not anything to raise concerns.

It's still a lot better than USA, they can have one for protection.. but the only thing they need a gun for protection is against other people with a gun.. who got theirs for protection? But hey, thats America!

[MrPinkPanther]

No disrespect to the victims or anything, but this was just a one off. I mean sure, there's still a bit of gun crime in the UK, but it's not anything to raise concerns.

I agree and for once I agree with David Cameron, we shouldn't have a knee-jerk reaction to this. It is a one off and events like this are much more common in countries like America where large numbers of the population own firearms.

[Swastika]

youre right, i do live in new york, so i think i'd know the situation here better than someone half way across the world. while it is undeniable we have a serious firearm problem, its pretty ridiculous to say that everyone who owns a firearm is in a gang. and most urban areas EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD have gangs. its a typical symptom of highly populated areas. so your "fact" was incomplete. the reason why there's more gun violence in american urban areas is because there are actually guns available -- if the same availability existed everywhere else it would be exactly the same. the mentality is the same everywhere, the only thing that is different is what tools are used.

yeah yeah i understand we do have exponentially more gun deaths than any other country, but suggesting that you cant turn a corner without seeing a gang member is just dumb. in ratio theres no more gang members here than anywhere else.
Maybe you do know the situation better than me because you live in the states, i don't know. If you read my posts correctly you would see that i'm NOT saying that everybody who owns a gun is a gang member, i'm saying the increase in LEGALLY obtained guns would lead to ILLEGALLY obtained guns and lead to alot more gang's in the UK because of the firearm black market. Its ridiculous to say that this wouldn't happen, the UK already has an underworld wich consists of drugs, gangs and guns - but having every normal law abiding citizen carry one would make this crime underworld turn mainstream.
Guns are easily available in different places across the globe yet its always the yanks that we hear about shooting each other for nothing? You lot have a serious gun problem and its needs sorting out.
To say my post was dumb when you haven't even read it properly, is hilarious. Please find some evidence that suggests the USA has the same ratio of gang members than another country?
Your country is rife with gangs and guns, admit it.

[sammy]

This is what i thought when i heard about it! I see no reason for anyone to need to own a gun, apart from farmers really, but at the end of the day, why do they need them? In my opinion guns should be banned from the country all together.

[Swastika]

I disagree, it's not asif they just hand them out to anybody lunatic who wants one.

[Gibs960]

I totally agree. Hunting shouldn't even be a sport, every time someone gets a gun something bad happens, this time it was really bad!

[Wig44.]

I totally agree. Hunting shouldn't even be a sport, every time someone gets a gun something bad happens, this time it was really bad!

Erm, yeah...

My opinion on hunting is that if what you hunt can be killed swiftly and is good to eat (it will save you from eating factory meat for that day, if the animal is good sport it is still fine), for example, North American wild Turkey. An example in Britain is Deer or Pheasant etc. Things I don't agree with are ones where the animal is killed JUST for sport, like Foxes.

[Swastika]

I totally agree. Hunting shouldn't even be a sport, every time someone gets a gun something bad happens, this time it was really bad!
It is a sport though at the end of the day, and i disagree that every time somebody gets gun - something bad happens.
If a gun is in the right hands, the owner and everybody around the owner will be entirely safe.

[Black_Apalachi]

I think we should all be allowed to keep guns generally (following the American style system in the states where it is allowed). If somebody whos a total nutcase/a criminal wants a gun - they will get a gun. With gun bans/making them hard to get for the law-abiding people, then you only make sure that the only people left with guns are the bad guys leaving the good guys defenceless. In this country its the criminals > law abiding majority in terms of rights.

Only skimmed the thread and I was going to say they should just ban them all completely but this is a very true point. Although if they were banned and the punishment for possession of a firearm was severe enough (i.e. life imprisonment because let's face it - it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume somebody unlawfully possessing any gun would have malicious intentions), then surely very few people would risk it.

A comment I heard but don't quite understand is how a gun ban would prevent us hosting the Olympic Games... Whatever guns are involved with there along with other obvious ones like the police force could surely be the exceptions?

[Jordy]

Only skimmed the thread and I was going to say they should just ban them all completely but this is a very true point. Although if they were banned and the punishment for possession of a firearm was severe enough (i.e. life imprisonment because let's face it - it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume somebody unlawfully possessing any gun would have malicious intentions), then surely very few people would risk it.

A comment I heard but don't quite understand is how a gun ban would prevent us hosting the Olympic Games... Whatever guns are involved with there along with other obvious ones like the police force could surely be the exceptions?Yeah they use pistols for some sport in the Olympics, they create a special exemption for the Olympic Games though, which has only previously been made for the Commonwealth games - The British team aren't even allowed to train over here they do it in Switzerland. Pistols are pretty much all illegal in the UK other than the odd security firm.

[HotelUser]

I think, in most every modern society, one of the most absolute flawed and stupid aspects is gun control. Especially in the USA where it's incredibly easy to own a hand gun. It's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of in my entire life.

[Black_Apalachi]

My mate brought up a good point in a conversation yesterday; the invention of the gun basically makes the risk of manslaughter much higher. If you flip out on someone and hit them or whatever, they'll probably be hurt but they're unlikely to die or even be seriously injured and will be fine after a day or two. But if you happen to have a gun at hand, that same amount of rage could have very different consequences. The gun allows a method of attack that is far too easy to be fatal even if it is unintentional.