Pros and cons of the EU? And what is your opinion of it?

[The Don]

I think this is the right forum, I am against the EU, I can't really see how it benefits us, anyone who is pro EU, can you shed some light on the pro's of it?

what are the pros and cons of the EU? I'll post some con's...


The EU plans to take nation states and create a political superstate.
The European Arrest Warrant means that a Brit can be accused of a crime that is not an offence in Britain, be arrested by foreign police at his home in Britain, and be held in a foreign jail pending trial under a code of justice that disregards habeas corpus
The EU is against Britain's Common Law. The Common Law protects both freedom and prosperity, yet the EU wants to get rid of it.
Habeas Corpus definition - A writ of habeas corpus is a judicial mandate to a prison official ordering that an inmate be brought to the court so it can be determined whether or not that person is imprisoned lawfully and whether or not he should be released from custody.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It is good you brought in the habius corpus issue - a very important part of this country and our idea of democracy, sadly it is threatened by the European Union with the likes of the European Arrest Warrant (more on police and security powers in todays Mail which you may have already read).

I am assure you somebody in this thread will go onto 'oh but we need the EU for our trade' - yes we do, and the EU needs us also. However you do not have to be in the European Union to trade with it, just as we do not have to be a part of the United States to trade with them either.

Any pros there are (seriously cannot think of any as it stands) are outweighed by the fact of the cost, lack of sovereignty and the very fact that we could create any of that legislation in our own parliament suited to our own needs and not those of Europe.

The European Union and its federalist dream will be the biggest issue of the next few decades, I can assure you.


(a vague PAN-European video showing the divide I list below, many will just not (refuse) to accept the democratic majority and its view)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbEwzrrrL1A


This is simply democracy vs bureaucracy.

[alexxxxx]

the resident ukip guys are here but i'll say the pros and be done with it:

-guaranteed free movement of people, people move to spain, france, germany without any sort of restrictions and we have had relatively low-skilled people to fill vacancies here
-free trade of goods and services without tax
-rights for delays on european airlines
-university co-operation and the eurasmus scheme for university students where students can spend a term/year of their course abroad
-restrictions and regulation of multinationals to guard against price-fixing
-european standards and regulations (often then taken as standards elsewhere) in terms of goods and products meaning that countries cannot put up artificial barriers to entry for foreign firms
-EU standard driving license to stop the requirements of having to get translations of driving licenses when in certain countries
-EHIC to allow for free or cut-priced treatment at hospitals whilst abroad
-funding re-allocated to areas and development ignored by national government
-better co-operation between national governments when thinking up strategies for global and pan-euro issues, leading to better allocation of resources
-european safety standards on a variety of things from cars to buildings
-joint scientific research

+manyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more.

cons:

-obviously some waste
-problems with accountability in the comission
-public generally unaware about what the EU does
-some countries which use the euro probably shouldn't

[-:Undertaker:-]

the resident ukip guys are here but i'll say the pros and be done with it:

-guaranteed free movement of people, people move to spain, france, germany without any sort of restrictions and we have had relatively low-skilled people to fill vacancies here

We could move to Europe before the European Union came into being, if anything it turns parts of Spain into 'mini-Englands' much to the resentment of the locals along with allowing Britain to open up to far too many immigrations from Eastern Europe (last government predicted 13,000 would come, turned into hundreds of thousands).


-free trade of goods and services without tax

This is possible with seperate treaties between nations minus the cost of the European Union.


-rights for delays on european airlines

This would be possible via national parliamentary legislation and would not undermine British sovereignty.


-university co-operation and the eurasmus scheme for university students where students can spend a term/year of their course abroad

Students can go abroad to numerous countries that are not in the European Union, a scheme like this would exist always whether or not it has 'the EU' or its horrendus flag printed above it.


-restrictions and regulation of multinationals to guard against price-fixing

Nothing national parliaments cannot do themselves, again undermining our sovereignty.


-european standards and regulations (often then taken as standards elsewhere) in terms of goods and products meaning that countries cannot put up artificial barriers to entry for foreign firms

The EU often competes in trade wars against the United States as it has a long French history of wanting to rival the United States and the United Kingdom - again nothing we could not do in our own parliament regardless (and without the hefty cost).


-EU standard driving license to stop the requirements of having to get translations of driving licenses when in certain countries

People go to numerous countries and dont seem to have that much of a problem, sinking low down the list here.


-EHIC to allow for free or cut-priced treatment at hospitals whilst abroad

Against the wishes of national parliaments and at the cost of the taxpayer, again undermining British sovereignty.


-funding re-allocated to areas and development ignored by national government

Where national government spends its money is up to national government, the money that goes into these schemes regardless is UK taxpayer money anyway just with a blue flag printed above it saying 'funded by the EU' when it was not - the British taxpayer has funded it not the EU.


-better co-operation between national governments when thinking up strategies for global and pan-euro issues, leading to better allocation of resources

We have NATO and a range of organisations for this, more to the point the EU has got past this stage where its not 'lets discuss the issues' its 'do as I say' where the EU itself directs Europe, not the democratically elected governments of Europe.


-european safety standards on a variety of things from cars to buildings

British safety standards in British measurement systems suit us perfectly fine thanks, and have done for many years.


-joint scientific research

The EU is not needed for that and has mostly nothing to do with scientific research.


cons:

-obviously some waste

I will go into just a tiny fraction of it for you as you've not listed it;

- The EU President (unelected is on more than President Obama or Prime Minister David Cameron.
- The EUs audits have not been checked for over a decade with billions (possibly into hundreds) missing.
- Corruption (Mandelson or Barroso and the Russian metal tycoon on the yacht).
- Over 1,000 eurocrats on more than Prime Minister David Cameron.
- £400 million just the other day which went to a dance group and a burping group.
& various more which can be found on UKIP/Open Europe and various other sites.


-problems with accountability in the comission

- Not elected.
- Many are communists who formerly worked in the Soviet Union.

Oh what the hell here they all are;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWSYMpuCFaQ&feature=PlayList&p=FABEB2DF1F2762D2&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=5



-public generally unaware about what the EU does

Correct, British politicians (including former Prime Minister Ted Heath) have lied and lied about what this is really about. Although thankfully we did have the truth in later years from Heath in which he said that when he took us into the EEC he knew it was about creating a United States of Europe.


-some countries which use the euro probably shouldn't

The greek economy in ruins thanks to the European and Greek elite forcing her into joining its monopoly currency, Spain/Italy and Ireland titter on the edge and still they continue with this bizzare project to force Europe to federalise.

Not to add the enormous costs (which are due to rise this year despite the fact we have a massive debt as a nation);

- £100 - £120 billion is the cost to UK business thanks to EU regulations.
- Direct membership costs stand at estimated £8 billion to £16 billion.

It is also important to take note to anyone reading and especially to Don, that alexxxxx is a self-confessed EU federalist who wants the European Union to replace the United Kingdom, the Kingdom of Spain and all the European nation states. Anyone must ask themselves in the name of democracy; why have this lot never asked for us to vote on this project? although not that it would matter because they made Ireland vote twice until they gave the 'right answer' whilst refusing [the pro-EU British government] to give the British people their promised referendum.

[hah]

Largest economy in the world: 16.447 trillion dollars (US:14.226 trillion dollars)

Largest exporter in the world: 1.925 trillion dollars (US: 1.057 trillion dollars)

Inflation rate: 1% (US: 2.2%)

Public debt: 73.6% of GDP (US: 88.9%)

Most development aid: 83.56 billion dollars (US: 26.01 billion dollars)

Most competitive corporations: 163 Global 500 corporations (US: 140), including the world leaders in Aerospace and Defense (EADS), Airlines (Lufthansa, Air France-KLM), Apparel (Christian Dior), Banks (ING, Dexia, HSBC, BNP Paribas, Banco Santander), Building Materials (Saint-Gobain, CRH, Lafarge), Chemicals (BASF), Electronics (Siemens), Energy (E.ON, GDF Suez, Rwe), Engineering and Contruction (Vinci, Bouygues, ACS), Food and Drug Stores (Carrefour, Metro, Tesco), Food Products (Unilever), Insurance (Allianz, Assicurazioni Generali, AXA), Mail and Freight Delivery (Deutsche Post), Metals (Arcelor Mittal, ThyssenKrupp), Mining (Rio Tinto, Anglo American), Automobile (Volkswagen), Communications Equipment (Nokia), Petroleum Refining (Royal Dutch Shell), Railroads (Deutsche Bahn, SNCF), Shipping (A.P. Moller-Maersk Group) and Utilities (EDF, Enel, Veolia) as well as the world's leading research institutions (CNRS, CERN) - all of them ranking above the largest American companies. European products are also universally recognised as being the best in the world in almost every area.

And all that while working less than almost any other people in the world. Which brings me to my next point:

The best quality of life in the world (in some cases behind some small non EU European countries), and also the most opportunity for success: universal health care and education (and also the best in the world), most democratic governments and personal freedoms, best infrastructure, least crime, best preservation of the environment... (14 of the world's 30 most livable cities, the first American one being Honolulu at 31st).

Finally, it has by far the richest cultural heritage in the world: Europe created history's greatest civilisation, which dominates the world today, and conquered almost the entire globe. While all its members share a strong common heritage and set of values - more than enough for a strong political union - each member also has a full blown national culture, its strengths adding to the success and diversity of the union, and its weaknesses made irrelevant thanks to the security provided by the union.

The European Union, first entity of its kind, has an almost unlimited potential for expansion in all fields. There is no doubt which will be the dominant power of the 21st century.


inb4 "the EU is not a country and never will be". In case you don’t know, the EU already has a common constitution, government (executive branch, parliament, supreme court), currency, no internal borders etc, and it’s only 17 years old.
Also inb4 "bawwww 27 countries uniting it's not fair!", except for former colonies, every country in the world was created through the unification of smaller countries.
Also inb4 "derp Greece", that crisis was far less severe than what happened all over the US, including in California, and it ended up being an opportunity to strengthen European unity.

[flatface]

The main "pro" is peace and security. Were these countries to be kept outside, then ancient enmities and a rise in nationalism could spark regional conflicts. Any disputes between say the Czech Republic and Hungary could be settled diplomatically within the EU. There is also a feeling that more than a decade after the fall of communism, Central and Eastern Europe can be reunited with its Western neighbours.

The inclusion of the ten countries will also increase the number of people that are in the European market by 75 million to more than 450 million, making Europe economically comparable to the United States. Existing businesses will be able to take their products and services to these countries without any major obstacles. UK businesses, which have been investing heavily in many of these countries, are expected to add up to £2 billion to the UK's gross domestic product.

[hah]

Undertaker, do you have proof that the EU is hiding millions of euros? that it is being used for corruption? it all seems like speculation to me

[-:Undertaker:-]

inb4 "the EU is not a country and never will be". In case you don’t know, the EU already has a common constitution, government (executive branch, parliament, supreme court), currency, no internal borders etc, and it’s only 17 years old.

Ahh right so earlier on in 'your' post, you said it was a democratic organisation - yet you have just now said (or the stuff you have pasted has just said) that it is a nation/country. How strange really, because the Commission is not elected (which passes 94% of EU legislation with the parliament only passing 4%) nor is the EU President Herman Van Rompuy who has executive powers and attended the G8 summit.

Something that is not elected by the electorate is not democratic.


Also inb4 "bawwww 27 countries uniting it's not fair!", except for former colonies, every country in the world was created through the unification of smaller countries. Natural unification, artificial unification covers; the United Kingdom (will split and is showing signs), the Soviet Union (has split), Yugoslavia (has split with a bloody war to finish it off) and Czechslovakia (has already split).. not to mention Nazi Germany.


Also inb4 "derp Greece", that crisis was far less severe than what happened all over the US, including in California, and it ended up being an opportunity to strengthen European unity.

Indeed it did strength the European Union because it enacted emergency laws to effectivly take over Greece and her economy. This is yet another point about the EU, that is always wants more power for itself all the time despite the fact the people of Europe do not want the European Union to have more power for itself.

So sex, do you want a federal Europe even though the vast majority of Europeans do not?
(would appreciate a real answer this time rather than copied statistics/a copied answer about the largest economies in the world which have nothing to do with this subject).


Undertaker, do you have proof that the EU is hiding millions of euros? that it is being used for corruption? it all seems like speculation to me

The EU has not had its audits signed off for over a decade because the auditors refuse to sign them off - why? ask yourself. If the books are clean and there is nothing to hide with no money missing, then why are the audits not being signed off?

[Moh]

Been part of the EU means cheaper travel to other counties within the EU, less taxes on trading within the EU, cleaner oceans/rivers, cheaper phone calls.

They're the only benefits we really have, the rest are for developing counties and corrupt governments.

[hah]

yes i do
i love europe, i think its great the way i dont have to bother about visas or changing money if i wish to go on holidays. I love the way you can just pack your bags and work in any other european country you wish.

[Catzsy]

I have to say that these days I find very little positive about the European Union as the trend is towards a 'United States of Europe'. I think the original idea of a European Free Trade Association has been lost and I do agree if the country was given a vote that it would be to resist them more.

[Moh]

yes i do
i love europe, i think its great the way i dont have to bother about visas or changing money if i wish to go on holidays. I love the way you can just pack your bags and work in any other european country you wish.
The only problem is other counties take advantage of our country.

[-:Undertaker:-]

yes i do
i love europe, i think its great the way i dont have to bother about visas or changing money if i wish to go on holidays. I love the way you can just pack your bags and work in any other european country you wish.

..so our ancestors fought for nothing in your eyes, a frankly disgusting attitude to democracy and certainly no respect for Europe regarding the two world wars we all fought to preserve democracy. Never [you] claim to have respect for Europe and those who died, because you'd far rather go on your holiday (which you would be able to anyway without the EU and at the exact same price, perhaps even cheaper) than have the self-right to rule. That is not respect, its pure and utter selfishness on your part.

Millions who perished across the world would kill to have the rights & democracy you and me enjoy, and many did kill for them.

[GommeInc]

Only pro I can think of is trade, but that was with the EEC or something, which became the EU. Another is the freedom to work and transfer from country to country in europe (or the EU). I disagree with chucking money at an unknown body who prefer to blow it on stupid schemes, and a governing body trying to run very different countries when those countries are smart enough to do it themselves.

[alexxxxx]

We could move to Europe before the European Union came into being, if anything it turns parts of Spain into 'mini-Englands' much to the resentment of the locals along with allowing Britain to open up to far too many immigrations from Eastern Europe (last government predicted 13,000 would come, turned into hundreds of thousands).

Too many immigrants? I'm not sure myself. There were gaps in the labour force beforehand which were plugged.



This is possible with seperate treaties between nations minus the cost of the European Union.

It's a lie to say it'll have no cost, PLUS it'd mean the need for internal borders to be set up in the EU again, not needed, expensive. The rights that we have now and the guarantee will almost certainly not be kept.



This would be possible via national parliamentary legislation and would not undermine British sovereignty.

this is where youre wrong again. would british laws be effective where connections are made?, or if needing to complain and prove rights in different countries will be completely different and not in the native language. common regulations make it easier for consumers.


Students can go abroad to numerous countries that are not in the European Union, a scheme like this would exist always whether or not it has 'the EU' or its horrendus flag printed above it.

Not all of these schemes are free and do not spread to the extent that eurasmus does.



Nothing national parliaments cannot do themselves, again undermining our sovereignty.

This is where you're wrong. It would be impossible for the UK to travel across borders to search out for evidence or proof without delays or be able to hand out a good enough punishment.




The EU often competes in trade wars against the United States as it has a long French history of wanting to rival the United States and the United Kingdom - again nothing we could not do in our own parliament regardless (and without the hefty cost).

At least there is LESS difference between the european states. UK firms only have to produce goods to conform to regulations to satisfy 27 countries' regulations rather than having to increase prices to produce goods for ever so slightly different products.


People go to numerous countries and dont seem to have that much of a problem, sinking low down the list here.

In Italy before this you had to get a translation of your british driving license. How ridiculous.


Against the wishes of national parliaments and at the cost of the taxpayer, again undermining British sovereignty.

To the cost and benefit to the taxpayer.


Where national government spends its money is up to national government, the money that goes into these schemes regardless is UK taxpayer money anyway just with a blue flag printed above it saying 'funded by the EU' when it was not - the British taxpayer has funded it not the EU.

Unless you're an idiot you'd realise that you're part of the EU and the money would come from the UK taxpayer. And the British government doesn't always get it right.


We have NATO and a range of organisations for this, more to the point the EU has got past this stage where its not 'lets discuss the issues' its 'do as I say' where the EU itself directs Europe, not the democratically elected governments of Europe.

Not everything is to do with war. Environmental policy for rivers, seas etc, regional economic issues, cross-border crime, power, energy, science are best done where the countries involved come together. Who is 'I' in the EU exactly? It's the comission and the council of ministers, both appointed and represented by the democratically elected national governments.


British safety standards in British measurement systems suit us perfectly fine thanks, and have done for many years.

and so have the european ones. and imperial measurements are stupid.


The EU is not needed for that and has mostly nothing to do with scientific research.

It helps co-ordinate science and provides funding.



alexxxxx is a self-confessed EU federalist who wants the European Union to replace the United Kingdom, the Kingdom of Spain and all the European nation states.
wrong wrong wrong. ive never said that nor want that.

[Jordy]

yes i do
i love europe, i think its great the way i dont have to bother about visas or changing money if i wish to go on holidays. I love the way you can just pack your bags and work in any other european country you wish.That makes it totally worth sabotaging our democracy so our laws can be made in Brussels by unelected individuals, not to forget the billions it costs us every year.

When you travel around much of the world you don't actually need to apply for Visas if you're a British passport holder, certainly not places you'd go on holiday anyway. For example you can go to the USA, Dubai, Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Hong Kong, Brazil, Canada, Japan etc without a visa, and guess what, they're not in the EU.

I don't see why it's so great that the EU is the biggest economy in the world? It doesn't actually benefit us, what benefits us is living in the UK which contributes enormously to the EU being the biggest economy in the world. We were already easily one of the worlds largest economies before the EU and we still are today. There is a few things the EU is convenient for, some of which have been outlined in this thread, however these things are quite petty and can be done without being in the EU and aren't even worth what we have to give up to be in the EU. Switzerland and Norway aren't in the EU yet they seem to have a much higher GDP and seem to be doing much better than everyone else in the EU.

[GommeInc]

Wait, they plan to get rid of Common Law? Common Law has been in existence for many many many years, before any form of UK Government and Parliament formed. Common Law is incredibly powerful, allowing the Courts and the judges who actually work with the laws to see what does and doesn't work. It's why the UK law system was and has been just for many hundreds of years. If they get rid of it, I hope an internal EU war breaks out and blows Germany off the map, even though that would be cruel seeing as many Germans hate us as much as we hate them.

Besides, good luck if they get that far. People are becoming sick of the EU. I can see countries dropping out and going back to their once powerful currencies and governments. I think the UK should just pull out, it would save us so much money. Yes, EU money is spread out across member states, but the money to be apart of it could be better suited back home. If these poorer european nations have problems, they could seek some support through a trade system like what already existed, without taking them over.

[alexxxxx]

Wait, they plan to get rid of Common Law? Common Law has been in existence for many many many years, before any form of UK Government and Parliament formed. Common Law is incredibly powerful, allowing the Courts and the judges who actually work with the laws to see what does and doesn't work. It's why the UK law system was and has been just for many hundreds of years. If they get rid of it, I hope an internal EU war breaks out and blows Germany off the map, even though that would be cruel seeing as many Germans hate us as much as we hate them.

Besides, good luck if they get that far. People are becoming sick of the EU. I can see countries dropping out and going back to their once powerful currencies and governments. I think the UK should just pull out, it would save us so much money. Yes, EU money is spread out across member states, but the money to be apart of it could be better suited back home. If these poorer european nations have problems, they could seek some support through a trade system like what already existed, without taking them over.

of course they aren't planning to remove common law.

and germans dont hate us and i dont hate the germans.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Too many immigrants? I'm not sure myself. There were gaps in the labour force beforehand which were plugged.

Well you could always go to a school thats has a teacher who cannot teach because there are so many kids from so many differing countries that they cannot understand the language. I am all for immigration, but it must be the British government which has control of British borders.


It's a lie to say it'll have no cost, PLUS it'd mean the need for internal borders to be set up in the EU again, not needed, expensive. The rights that we have now and the guarantee will almost certainly not be kept.

Of course it will have a cost, everything has a cost. The important thing is that its a lower cost and its done on our terms and on whats best for the United Kingdom, not what is best for the French, Germans or Czechs.


this is where youre wrong again. would british laws be effective where connections are made?, or if needing to complain and prove rights in different countries will be completely different and not in the native language. common regulations make it easier for consumers.

Britain is a leading economy and developed many methods of regulations as it was the first industrialised country in the world. Common regulation does not require the United Kingdom to allow the EU supremacy over our courts and parliament.


Not all of these schemes are free and do not spread to the extent that eurasmus does.

Nor are EU schemes - we [the taxpayer] are paying for it.


This is where you're wrong. It would be impossible for the UK to travel across borders to search out for evidence or proof without delays or be able to hand out a good enough punishment.

When we travel we have to show our passports regardless, and so we should. Jordy has also pointed out and addressed the visa issue.


At least there is LESS difference between the european states. UK firms only have to produce goods to conform to regulations to satisfy 27 countries' regulations rather than having to increase prices to produce goods for ever so slightly different products.

That is not what business seems to think - the EU costs business £100/120 billion a year and most hate the endless regulations that stems out of it. One of them is the need for a slaughterhouse to hire a 'animal care officer' to oversee animal welfare in the moments before the animal is killed.. thousands and thousands of regulations come out every year making business uncompetitive - why do you think business is leaving Europe?


In Italy before this you had to get a translation of your british driving license. How ridiculous.

If you are in another country that speaks a differing language then I would expect that, or would the EU prefer we all spoke one language and became one people as I have said before with German, English and French all becoming dominent within the EU.


To the cost and benefit to the taxpayer.

Not to the benefit, and I havent got a problem with health deals with other nations provided they benefit us and provided we have a say over these deals rather than them being imposed upon us.


Unless you're an idiot you'd realise that you're part of the EU and the money would come from the UK taxpayer. And the British government doesn't always get it right.

Has the taxpayer asked or voted for the EU? no.
Is the EU accountable to the taxpayer? no.

The British government may not get it right no. I do not agree with the government on many counts, but i'd rather have an elected government getting it wrong than an unelected one getting it right (which the EU isnt very good at either). It is about choice and democracy and to hand that over is totally and utterly wrong.


Not everything is to do with war. Environmental policy for rivers, seas etc, regional economic issues, cross-border crime, power, energy, science are best done where the countries involved come together. Who is 'I' in the EU exactly? It's the comission and the council of ministers, both appointed and represented by the democratically elected national governments.All something this parliament can do.

As for appointed, yes appointed and not elected therefore not democratic.


and so have the european ones. and imperial measurements are stupid.

Imperial measurements (like most things across Europe) were invented with use, they are a real measurement system. The metric system was developed by Naploean and his pencil pushers which is impractical. Stop forcing your euro-nationalism on the people of this country and let us have a say on our own destiny.


It helps co-ordinate science and provides funding.

Again.. national governments can do this and science co-ordinates itself through its own bodies, if the EU is involved then its just another example of 'creeping into something and touching because I can, because I have that power'


wrong wrong wrong. ive never said that nor want that.

Yes you do, you told me in a thread many months ago (even last year) that you wanted a federal Europe - perhaps you have now changed which is good news, so are you now opposed to a federal Europe?


of course they aren't planning to remove common law.

and germans dont hate us and i dont hate the germans.

Yes they do, EU law is supreme to UK courts and parliament.

A recent example today; http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-news/1781-plan-to-let-eu-police-snoop-on-britons

[alexxxxx]

Well you could always go to a school thats has a teacher who cannot teach because there are so many kids from so many differing countries that they cannot understand the language. I am all for immigration, but it must be the British government which has control of British borders.

I have no experience of this and i'm sure it's only in certain areas of the country.



Of course it will have a cost, everything has a cost. The important thing is that its a lower cost and its done on our terms and on whats best for the United Kingdom, not what is best for the French, Germans or Czechs.

Everyone will do it on their terms, there will be very little agreement and therefore it will hurt everyone. We should all compromise .


Britain is a leading economy and developed many methods of regulations as it was the first industrialised country in the world. Common regulation does not require the United Kingdom to allow the EU supremacy over our courts and parliament.

It will reduce costs for business.



Nor are EU schemes - we [the taxpayer] are paying for it.

Free at point of use obviously.



When we travel we have to show our passports regardless, and so we should. Jordy has also pointed out and addressed the visa issue.

This has nothing to do with what i'm talking about. I'm talking about our authorities having no power to search offices in berlin, warsaw etc.



That is not what business seems to think - the EU costs business £100/120 billion a year and most hate the endless regulations that stems out of it. One of them is the need for a slaughterhouse to hire a 'animal care officer' to oversee animal welfare in the moments before the animal is killed.. thousands and thousands of regulations come out every year making business uncompetitive - why do you think business is leaving Europe?

Regulation always puts costs on business because that's what it's there for. It's for correcting wrongs and for protecting workers and consumers. Any UK regulation would have comparable costs and if having to make goods or providing services to different sets of regulations will either hurt competition or increase costs to the consumer more than this.



If you are in another country that speaks a differing language then I would expect that, or would the EU prefer we all spoke one language and became one people as I have said before with German, English and French all becoming dominent within the EU.

This is a stupid reason. Just have a standard with numbers so when someone looks at it they know what names the family name, what the issue date, the restrictions on the driver and the like without costing the user more money.



Not to the benefit, and I havent got a problem with health deals with other nations provided they benefit us and provided we have a say over these deals rather than them being imposed upon us.

So you think no one has ever had to go to the hospital abroad. My mum has. My friends mum was constantly in a foreign hospital for almost the entirety of her holiday due to blood poisoning. No charge whatsoever. Why put people in a situation abroad where people can't afford to pay for care on the spot (insurance isn't instantaneous).



Has the taxpayer asked or voted for the EU? no.
Is the EU accountable to the taxpayer? no.

The British government may not get it right no. I do not agree with the government on many counts, but i'd rather have an elected government getting it wrong than an unelected one getting it right (which the EU isnt very good at either). It is about choice and democracy and to hand that over is totally and utterly wrong.

The EU is accountable through our national government. Every time you vote for any of the main 3 parties you are voting for the EU

.
All something this parliament can do.

As for appointed, yes appointed and not elected therefore not democratic.

What. With itself? It can work out cross-border strategies without involving consultation with anyone else?


Imperial measurements (like most things across Europe) were invented with use, they are a real measurement system. The metric system was developed by Naploean and his pencil pushers which is impractical. Stop forcing your euro-nationalism on the people of this country and let us have a say on our own destiny.

Maybe in the past yes. Everyone uses metric units. But i don't know what a quart is. I don't even know what a pound is. I don't know what a fluid oz is. Colloquial usage of distances and volume is alright but i'm sorry imperial is the stupidest thing ever. 1760 yards in a mile, 3 feet in a yard, 12 inches in a foot. SI units and metric units are the best. Inter-changable, international, easy to understand. 1 kg of water = 1 litre. It sounds to me you're against the usage of international standard units because it's a bit european.



Again.. national governments can do this and science co-ordinates itself through its own bodies, if the EU is involved then its just another example of 'creeping into something and touching because I can, because I have that power'

Why should national governments waste money on similar or identical projects taken up in other countries, where less money could be spent with co-operation, also utilising the best people from everywhere in europe.



Yes you do, you told me in a thread many months ago (even last year) that you wanted a federal Europe - perhaps you have now changed which is good news, so are you now opposed to a federal Europe?

A 'federal' europe, if you want to call it that, does not destroy the UK. I think criminal law should be almost all sorted out by national states but regulations and certain economic stratagies need to be driven by a larger body.



Yes they do, EU law is supreme to UK courts and parliament.

Well yes, in that respect. But in UK courts we have common law and that won't change.

[GommeInc]

of course they aren't planning to remove common law.

and germans dont hate us and i dont hate the germans.
They do if we're clumped together like one, we don't want their laws and ideas and the same here in the UK. We're two different countries, not two different states or provinces as the EU suggests :P

[hah]

That makes it totally worth sabotaging our democracy so our laws can be made in Brussels by unelected individuals, not to forget the billions it costs us every year.

When you travel around much of the world you don't actually need to apply for Visas if you're a British passport holder, certainly not places you'd go on holiday anyway. For example you can go to the USA, Dubai, Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Hong Kong, Brazil, Canada, Japan etc without a visa, and guess what, they're not in the EU.

I don't see why it's so great that the EU is the biggest economy in the world? It doesn't actually benefit us, what benefits us is living in the UK which contributes enormously to the EU being the biggest economy in the world. We were already easily one of the worlds largest economies before the EU and we still are today. There is a few things the EU is convenient for, some of which have been outlined in this thread, however these things are quite petty and can be done without being in the EU and aren't even worth what we have to give up to be in the EU. Switzerland and Norway aren't in the EU yet they seem to have a much higher GDP and seem to be doing much better than everyone else in the EU.

Wrong you need a visa to enter the USA and i only know this cause
http://www.tmz.com/2007/08/07/lily-allen-denied-by-america/ + Amy whinehouses visa was rejected.

You also need a visa for turkey, but you just get of the plane and pay 20pounds to get a sticker that says visa

[Aces]

The EU is basically a peace project. All the European countries' economies are interconnected, so if one country lands in a conflict with another state then everyone's affected negatively which creates a common motive to resolve the conflict. Even other countries would have motive to help seeing as the Euro is very influential around the world and it's collapse would cause a stir.

[ifuseekamy]

Free trade, travel etc. Other than that it's like Big Brother or something which I can only assume is the direction it's heading.

[The Don]

The con's really outweigh the pro's, don't they? :P

[Jordy]

Wrong you need a visa to enter the USA and i only know this cause
http://www.tmz.com/2007/08/07/lily-allen-denied-by-america/ + Amy whinehouses visa was rejected.

You also need a visa for turkey, but you just get of the plane and pay 20pounds to get a sticker that says visaYeah but the point being you don't have to apply beforehand for them so there's no real hassle. As for Lily Allen she was working in the US which is different.


The EU is basically a peace project. All the European countries' economies are interconnected, so if one country lands in a conflict with another state then everyone's affected negatively which creates a common motive to resolve the conflict. Even other countries would have motive to help seeing as the Euro is very influential around the world and it's collapse would cause a stir.It's not a peace project at all, NATO is a peace project. Thankfully the EU doesn't intervene in foreign or military affairs (yet) so it hasn't made a difference in stopping wars etc.

[Inseriousity.]

Can I just ask how long we've been in the EU for?

[alexxxxx]

Can I just ask how long we've been in the EU for?
since 1973, although back then it wasn't really the same thing as it is now.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I have no experience of this and i'm sure it's only in certain areas of the country.

Yes it is only in certain areas of the country and its damn well wrong, so think of that and the people who live in those areas next time [regarding the Burka debate].


Everyone will do it on their terms, there will be very little agreement and therefore it will hurt everyone. We should all compromise .

The government should do what is best for the British people and Britain, not what is best for the German people. If government ever fails in this then government is not doing its job.


It will reduce costs for business.

Reduce costs for business when piling thousands of EU regulations on it per year? If the EU existed to remove regulations then fair dos to that argument, but as it stands that is a very poor case.


Free at point of use obviously.

So hang on, instead of giving the EU billions per year (along with the costs to business with over-regulation) why not just keep the money in the first place and spend that money here where it belongs. Why should British taxpayers foot the bill for motorways in the Czech Republic, public sewers in Budapest when our tax bills are rising and our schools are crumbling and now are not being replaced?


This has nothing to do with what i'm talking about. I'm talking about our authorities having no power to search offices in berlin, warsaw etc.

Our authorities have no legal right to search offices in Berlin or in any other country apart from the United Kingdom, I always had the impression you were against colonialism by the British on other nations but now it seems you do not really mind at all when sovereignty is trampled upon. If we have reason to suspect something in Berlin, we go to the German police force and present the evidence to them - if they think there is case for arrest under German law then they make that arrest/search them offices.


Regulation always puts costs on business because that's what it's there for. It's for correcting wrongs and for protecting workers and consumers. Any UK regulation would have comparable costs and if having to make goods or providing services to different sets of regulations will either hurt competition or increase costs to the consumer more than this.

There reaches a point where you have too many laws/regulations, one example would be the last decade under the Labour government. If we removed the thousands of laws they [and the EU] implemented over that decade, would anybody really notice anything different? no they would not, the only difference made would be UK business becoming more competitive.

I doubt we even enforce half of our laws as it stands, so why are we messing about with pointless EU regulation such as what the definition of a pig (you know, the pink animal with the twirly tail?) is?


This is a stupid reason. Just have a standard with numbers so when someone looks at it they know what names the family name, what the issue date, the restrictions on the driver and the like without costing the user more money.

Why and how would this cost British drivers more money? Most people in this country do not drive across Europe and the ones that do will do it about once a year, so why should everyone foot the bill for a minority over such a daft and non-issue? they shouldn't.


So you think no one has ever had to go to the hospital abroad. My mum has. My friends mum was constantly in a foreign hospital for almost the entirety of her holiday due to blood poisoning. No charge whatsoever. Why put people in a situation abroad where people can't afford to pay for care on the spot (insurance isn't instantaneous).

Because you then have people coming here to the UK for specialist care which many other nations (such as Eastern Europe) do not have.


The EU is accountable through our national government. Every time you vote for any of the main 3 parties you are voting for the EU

The European Union is not accountable at all to the British people or any other people across Europe. The main parties ah yes, well theres not much we can do bearing in mind the voting system - more to the point everytime they are in opposition they all pretend to be tough on the European Union 'no more powers to Europe' they all shout. Our politicians are not being truthful what this is about, a federal Europe. I proved it to you with numerous quotes and you still deny it as though its some crackpot conspiracy. Well i'd put it to you that the only crackpots are the ones coming out with this stuff.

The reason why the European Union can never democratise is because a euro-sceptic would be elected, simple as that.


What. With itself? It can work out cross-border strategies without involving consultation with anyone else?

No, government works out the treaties with other elected governments and then the parliaments of those countries ratify and pass the acts into law (or the people preferably). Even if the EU were to exist to work these things out then i'd be fine with it, provided it does not cross into social, economic and political areas - something which it does now.


Maybe in the past yes. Everyone uses metric units. But i don't know what a quart is. I don't even know what a pound is. I don't know what a fluid oz is. Colloquial usage of distances and volume is alright but i'm sorry imperial is the stupidest thing ever. 1760 yards in a mile, 3 feet in a yard, 12 inches in a foot. SI units and metric units are the best. Inter-changable, international, easy to understand. 1 kg of water = 1 litre. It sounds to me you're against the usage of international standard units because it's a bit european.

The imperial system is the real system, the metric system was dreamed up by Naploean and his pencil pushers. The imperial system developed through time, you may not know all measurements but I very much doubt most people today know (including the metric system). The fact that you are young and do not know our own measurement system because the European Union wishes to eradicate it is very sad indeed.

I have no problem with what the Europeans use or wish to use, but I want to use the British measurement system. If people want a change then put it to them, dont go doing it behind their backs via stealth.


Why should national governments waste money on similar or identical projects taken up in other countries, where less money could be spent with co-operation, also utilising the best people from everywhere in europe.

It costs more money to create another organisation. Between two nations you have the two governments talking about it, with the European Union you have the EU and the two governments - which means more costs. You might aswell just abolish government here and across Europe and just allow the EU to take over, thats what you want personally anyway isn't it?

You don't half go on with PC talk, 'ultilising the best people from everywhere in Europe' what utter PC speak. It doesnt even mean anything just like them stupid questions in job interviews such as 'why do you want to become staff in such and such?'


A 'federal' europe, if you want to call it that, does not destroy the UK. I think criminal law should be almost all sorted out by national states but regulations and certain economic stratagies need to be driven by a larger body.

As a 'libertarian' you should be against big government, yet now it seems you are for it. I'm sorry but a federal Europe does destroy the United Kingdom just as the United States destroyed the Republic of Texas and so on. You now admit a federal Europe is being built? yes?


Well yes, in that respect. But in UK courts we have common law and that won't change.

Common law can still exist but doesnt have to matter anymore as EU law and courts are supreme to it, meaning common law doesnt matter at all anymore. So common law has changed and its being eroded, fast.