Gurkha ordered back to UK after beheading dead Taliban fighter

[Hitman]

A Gurkha soldier has been flown back to the UK after hacking the head off a dead Taliban commander with his ceremonial knife to prove the dead man’s identity.
The private, from 1st Battalion, Royal Gurkha Rifles, was involved in a fierce firefight with insurgents in the Babaji area of central Helmand Province when the incident took place earlier this month.
His unit had been told that they were seeking a ‘high value target,’ a Taliban commander, and that they must prove they had killed the right man.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1295617/Gurkha-ordered-UK-beheading-dead-Taliban-fighter.html#ixzz0u1JYWMHc


I feel sorry for the Gurkha. It says he may face jail.


He is understood to have removed the man’s head from the area, leaving the rest of his body on the battlefield.

This is considered a gross insult to the Muslims of Afghanistan, who bury the entire body of their dead even if parts have to be retrieved.


Who cares? This is a war not a parade through the streets. People die in wars, get blown up or shot, and I'm sure death is an insult to anyone. Don't forget the Taliban are willing to do whatever to kill our soldiers.



I don't see how it's any different if they blow the person into 1000 pieces and retrieve them, or chop their head off so they're in two and retrieve them...

[GommeInc]

He's dead, nothing is going to happen. It's war, there are no rules and you chuck beliefs of others aside, either because that's the reason you're at war or because there's no time. Not sure what the problem is, though it is a bit gross and medieval. Surely they have a camera phone they could use to take a picture? :P This isn't Sherwood Forest where Robin Hood's head needs to be retrieved to prove he's dead :P

[FlyingJesus]

Can't they just say they'll return the head once the identification's all sorted

[HotelUser]

The man was part of the Taliban so I'm very glad he's dead.

The Gurkha man committed a very gruesome act, though considering the very gruesome beliefs of the Taliban I think I can get over it :P

[Smits]

I'm pretty sure it's usually the insurgents doing the beheading.

Anyway, he was asked to prove, what better way than to do that? Hopefully he's cleared in the courts.

[Nixt]

Actually I agree that this soldier was in the wrong. He could have taken photographs of the dead body and had them verified to confirm identity. Equally he could have arranged a corpse extraction if such identification was that important.

Dismembering a corpse is an act of gross indecency and is completely unnecessary.

[Hitman]

Actually I agree that this soldier was in the wrong. He could have taken photographs of the dead body and had them verified to confirm identity. Equally he could have arranged a corpse extraction if such identification was that important.

Dismembering a corpse is an act of gross indecency and is completely unnecessary.
Hey Garion, do you know how they work? It says he was under heavy fire so if they left the body I imagine it would have been taken by the Taliban... and do they carry cameras? Maybe he should be told off, a slapped wrist, but not imprisonment! :(

[alexxxxx]

Hey Garion, do you know how they work? It says he was under heavy fire so if they left the body I imagine it would have been taken by the Taliban... and do they carry cameras? Maybe he should be told off, a slapped wrist, but not imprisonment! :(
he'll probably just get a reprimand. and i should imagine they do carry something to prove who they killed is who they needed to.

[Nixt]

Hey Garion, do you know how they work? It says he was under heavy fire so if they left the body I imagine it would have been taken by the Taliban... and do they carry cameras? Maybe he should be told off, a slapped wrist, but not imprisonment! :(

It is likely that one member of the troop would be carrying a camera. Indeed if an intelligence officer was attached to the regiment, which is likely in the event that they were targeting a high ranking Taliban official, they would most certainly be carrying a camera. Equally a surprisingly high amount of soldiers carry their phone and personal digital cameras on operations (although they shouldn't) to take pictures of varying aspects of their tour of duty. This includes when engaged in an operation that may involve a heavy fire fight (although they would not be snapping away at that point, of course).

It also says in that article that the killed Afghan was identified with the use of DNA evidence, cutting a bit of the hair, or even slicing off a bit of skin would have sufficed. I recognise they were in the heat of battle but removing the head of a fallen soldier, whom members of the British army are rigorously trained to respect (dead or alive) even if they are enemy combatants, is a calculated decision that requires some thought and effort... I do not believe he can say he was under that much pressure, given that he took the time to sever the individuals head from his neck.

There really were several more, sensible, options that he should have thought about before removing the head of a fallen combatant. As the article says it wasn't malicious but it was downright stupid and he should be dealt with as such. I doubt he'd be imprisoned for that long. A day in Colchester is like a year in civvy prisons, so I am told.

[Catzsy]

Hey Garion, do you know how they work? It says he was under heavy fire so if they left the body I imagine it would have been taken by the Taliban... and do they carry cameras? Maybe he should be told off, a slapped wrist, but not imprisonment! :(

Well I think it might take while to hack off somebodys head and I can't imagine somebody didn't have a camera. Seriously not a normal thing to do.

[scottish]

I lol'd

But yeh he doesn't deserve to be put in jail

The guys taliban who cares

[Catzsy]

I lol'd

But yeh he doesn't deserve to be put in jail

The guys taliban who cares

So if a taliban did the same to a british soldier and was caught he should not go to jail either?

[scottish]

No if a taliban done it to a british soldier he should be shot in the head.

[Catzsy]

No if a taliban done it to a british soldier he should be shot in the head.

Oh okay. Nice to see a balanced argument here:P x

[Middlesbrough]

So if a taliban did the same to a british soldier and was caught he should not go to jail either?

I beleive its different though - We would want him to go to jail for doing it to a british soldier because we are british, but what the article is saying is he may go to a british jail for killing a taliban soldier. I'm not sure how clear I said what i meant.

[Catzsy]

I beleive its different though - We would want him to go to jail for doing it to a british soldier because we are british, but what the article is saying is he may go to a british jail for killing a taliban soldier. I'm not sure how clear I said what i meant.

Unfortunately the gurkha if it is proved correct did something that I am sure most people would find unacceptable for a british soldier. Thats all there is to it really.

[Hitman]

I beleive its different though - We would want him to go to jail for doing it to a british soldier because we are british, but what the article is saying is he may go to a british jail for killing a taliban soldier. I'm not sure how clear I said what i meant.
I understand what you're saying. Would the Taliban send their soldier to prison for beheading a British soldier - no, they wouldn't. They would most likely give them special recognition.

We would want the Taliban solder to go to prison for beheading a British soldier, and the Taliban would want the British soldier to go to prison for beheading a Taliban soldier.

[Nixt]

I beleive its different though - We would want him to go to jail for doing it to a british soldier because we are british, but what the article is saying is he may go to a british jail for killing a taliban soldier. I'm not sure how clear I said what i meant.

He will not go to prison for killing a Taliban soldier, providing that Taliban soldier was attacking him. He may go to prison for dismembering the corpse of a fallen combatant which is totally unacceptable for a British soldier.

[alexxxxx]

I understand what you're saying. Would the Taliban send their soldier to prison for beheading a British soldier - no, they wouldn't. They would most likely give them special recognition.
that doesn't mean we should do the same though does it?

[Hitman]

that doesn't mean we should do the same though does it?
Not special recognition, but not punishment either. That is my opinion and of course you will not agree as you have little respect for soldiers...

This is war and war is gruesome at the end of the day. Terrible acts are committed all around. At least this guy was dead.

I've said what I have to say and I've got nada mas to say. You will disagree, fine, you are entitled to your opinion.

[Nixt]

Not special recognition, but not punishment either. That is my opinion and of course you will not agree as you have little respect for soldiers...

This is war and war is gruesome at the end of the day. Terrible acts are committed all around. At least this guy was dead.

Yes but the point is, we are fighting a war against those who behave in this way. Why would we stoop to their level? It's ridiculous. In basic training soldiers are rigorously trained not only in the military skills you might imagine but the mechanics and legalities of war itself. Part of that training entails respecting your enemy in combat and respecting a fallen soldier be it of an enemy or allied force. Removing the head of a dead Taliban soldier is not an appropriate way for a soldier to behave. The British Army is the best in the world because of it's disciplined soldiers - such behaviour shows no discipline whatsoever.

[Hitman]

Yes but the point is, we are fighting a war against those who behave in this way. Why would we stoop to their level? It's ridiculous. In basic training soldiers are rigorously trained not only in the military skills you might imagine but the mechanics and legalities of war itself. Part of that training entails respecting your enemy in combat and respecting a fallen soldier be it of an enemy or allied force. Removing the head of a dead Taliban soldier is not an appropriate way for a soldier to behave. The British Army is the best in the world because of it's disciplined soldiers - such behaviour shows no discipline whatsoever.
You've made me post again! :@

OK fair point, but you are making it sound like he just did it for fun or something. You have to look at the circumstances... they were under heavy fire, I assume he didn't have any other equipment (otherwise he'd of used it) and it was in the heat of the moment. Stupid things happen in the heat of the moment, I'm sure nearly everyone has experienced it at some point. Maybe he should have left it, but then he may have got into more trouble?

What would happen if you were in a warzone and you were facing the enemy... and you both only had knives? Would you get into trouble for bad conduct or whatever then? Or would you be able to say self defence or something? That's a sincere question.

[Nixt]

You've made me post again! :@

OK fair point, but you are making it sound like he just did it for fun or something. You have to look at the circumstances... they were under heavy fire, I assume he didn't have any other equipment (otherwise he'd of used it) and it was in the heat of the moment. Stupid things happen in the heat of the moment, I'm sure nearly everyone has experienced it at some point. Maybe he should have left it, but then he may have got into more trouble?

What would happen if you were in a warzone and you were facing the enemy... and you both only had knives? Would you get into trouble for bad conduct or whatever then? Or would you be able to say self defence or something? That's a sincere question.

The fact of the matter is that removing someone's head, even with a Kukri, is quite a feat! If the body is recently deceased there will be significant blood loss, there is severing through some tough arteries and the spinal cord as well as the muscle itself. It's not easy to remove someone's head and as such, I don't think he can claim it was a "heat of the battle" kind of situation. It might be easy to jump to that decision if you find yourself in that situation, but actually doing it is another thing. It would require effort that would have been better used fighting off the enemy that were attacking the soldiers. It's a very calculated decision I think, the soldier should have known better. If part of their mission mandate was to confirm the identity of the Taliban soldier, they would have been outfitted with the relevant equipment to successfully complete that and how to appropriately ensure identification would have been part of the operation briefing if it was that significant.

If you were facing the enemy and you both only had knives, it is of course permissible to disable them with that knife. Bayonets are still used in CQB situations. Bayonet training is a significant (and damn intense) part of basic training for all soldiers of the British army.

[Hitman]

I've never attempted to decapitate somebody so I'm not going to comment on how hard it'd be... we don't know what was going through his head either. And mistakes do happen, although he didn't kill anybody (and if he did it was with a gun).

Yeah I've got a picture of my dad on the back of a truck with a bayonet, it looks like a pretty cool weapon.

[Swastika]

Can't believe some people are blaming the British soldier in this.
He was asked to get evidence that they had killed the Taliban commander, and this is what he did. Under very heavy fire, unbelievably hot conditions and carrying all your equipment - i don't think he had much time to think and just did it because it was the first thought into his head.
My grandad had a Gurkha knife, the Kukri knife is a very very sharp and useful knife, believe me it wouldn't have taken long to hack somebody's head off with one of those, judging by my grandads knife of course.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I have enormous respect for the Gurkhas who have been a part of our military forces for many decades, if not over a hundred years - they are proud of the Empire and all that makes this country great. I am in support of the soldier, I very much doubt he did this in a bloodthirsty manner and was most likely under awful conditions when committing this act.

As usual it begs the question, what the hell are we doing there?

[Nixt]

Can't believe some people are blaming the British soldier in this.
He was asked to get evidence that they had killed the Taliban commander, and this is what he did. Under very heavy fire, unbelievably hot conditions and carrying all your equipment - i don't think he had much time to think and just did it because it was the first thought into his head.
My grandad had a Gurkha knife, the Kukri knife is a very very sharp and useful knife, believe me it wouldn't have taken long to hack somebody's head off with one of those, judging by my grandads knife of course.

Soldiers of the British army are trained vigorously to cope with the conditions presented to them on operations. The heat and weight of operational equipment is irrelevant to the act itself, as is to an extent the heavy fire they are under as again they are trained to deal with situations such as those. The Kukri is very sharp but decapitating someone with it is still quite a feat to achieve. It's a wonder than no fellow soldiers attempted to stop him but I would assume they were too busy returning fire and didn't think that he'd be attempting to remove the head of a fallen soldier. It would have been much faster to take a photo or remove a smaller part of the body such as hair, skin or even a finger in order to secure later DNA confirmation.


I have enormous respect for the Gurkhas who have been a part of our military forces for many decades, if not over a hundred years - they are proud of the Empire and all that makes this country great. I am in support of the soldier, I very much doubt he did this in a bloodthirsty manner and was most likely under awful conditions when committing this act.

As usual it begs the question, what the hell are we doing there?

And so do I. They are an excellent infantry regiment who have done us proud on a number of operations. Nevertheless this does not excuse what is a wholly inappropriate act that should not have been committed by a member of the British army. Frankly the conditions have little to do with it. I recognise he was under heavy fire etc etc but that is what he is trained to do. That is what he is there for. I can say with virtual certainty that other soldiers have been in similar situations and not resorted to such ridiculous and unnecessary tactics.

I know, first hand, that this is not how a British army soldier should behave or is expected to behave.

[Hitman]

Soldiers of the British army are trained vigorously to cope with the conditions presented to them on operations. The heat and weight of operational equipment is irrelevant to the act itself, as is to an extent the heavy fire they are under as again they are trained to deal with situations such as those. The Kukri is very sharp but decapitating someone with it is still quite a feat to achieve. It's a wonder than no fellow soldiers attempted to stop him but I would assume they were too busy returning fire and didn't think that he'd be attempting to remove the head of a fallen soldier. It would have been much faster to take a photo or remove a smaller part of the body such as hair, skin or even a finger in order to secure later DNA confirmation.



And so do I. They are an excellent infantry regiment who have done us proud on a number of operations. Nevertheless this does not excuse what is a wholly inappropriate act that should not have been committed by a member of the British army. Frankly the conditions have little to do with it. I recognise he was under heavy fire etc etc but that is what he is trained to do. That is what he is there for. I can say with virtual certainty that other soldiers have been in similar situations and not resorted to such ridiculous and unnecessary tactics.

I know, first hand, that this is not how a British army soldier should behave or is expected to behave.
Regarding the DNA thing, surely it wouldn't have been possible? I mean, forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm not very hot on the subject of DNA, but wouldn't they need some of this Taliban leader's DNA originally to compare it to? I doubt they'd have any to compare it to... or is there some other way DNA works?

[MrPinkPanther]

I am of course immensely proud of the Gurkhas but equally we need to respect the culture of the country that we are invading. We cannot expect to win over the population of Afghanistan when we completely disregard their laws and customs, we can only withdraw from Afghanistan when we have mutual respect with their people and this cannot happen while events such as these continue. I accept that this was not a malicious incident but that doesn't mean it should go unpunished, it will have provided lasting damage to the British operation in the area and soldiers should know that hacking the head off a dead soldier is completely wrong.

[Nixt]

Regarding the DNA thing, surely it wouldn't have been possible? I mean, forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm not very hot on the subject of DNA, but wouldn't they need some of this Taliban leader's DNA originally to compare it to? I doubt they'd have any to compare it to... or is there some other way DNA works?

I am referring to this part of the article: "But later the Taliban fighter was mutilated so his identity could be verified for DNA tests". Removing the head was totally unnecessary. Hair, skin... or if it really was necessary to remove part of the body, a finger would have done.

Oh and you'd be surprised at how much information Military Intelligence has on (senior) Taliban fighters and soldiers.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I am of course immensely proud of the Gurkhas but equally we need to respect the culture of the country that we are invading. We cannot expect to win over the population of Afghanistan when we completely disregard their laws and customs, we can only withdraw from Afghanistan when we have mutual respect with their people and this cannot happen while events such as these continue. I accept that this was not a malicious incident but that doesn't mean it should go unpunished, it will have provided lasting damage to the British operation in the area and soldiers should know that hacking the head off a dead soldier is completely wrong.

We will never win in Afghanistan, we failed when we were able to rule a quarter of the world and we will fail again just as the Soviets did.

Our soldiers are dying, and for what?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Note to moderation (the post above did not show and gave me the impression that I had not posted on this topic).


I am of course immensely proud of the Gurkhas but equally we need to respect the culture of the country that we are invading. We cannot expect to win over the population of Afghanistan when we completely disregard their laws and customs, we can only withdraw from Afghanistan when we have mutual respect with their people and this cannot happen while events such as these continue. I accept that this was not a malicious incident but that doesn't mean it should go unpunished, it will have provided lasting damage to the British operation in the area and soldiers should know that hacking the head off a dead soldier is completely wrong.

We cannot expect (ever) to win anything in Afghanistan, they are giving us a bloody good hiding over there and with reason to - I heard that the Americans apparently have just 'stumbled' across massive Lithium deposits in Afghanistan and now American companies are moving in for the kill - at least the United States is making something of this hopeless conquest. The people of Afghanistan hate foreign invaders and will fight on and on to push foreigners out - in some ways it has to be admired. The sad part of this battle though is concerning the soldiers, they are dying for nothing and yet none of our mainsteam politicians are prepared to stand up and shout out the truth - that this war is unwinnable.

We failed when we had a quarter of the world under our thumb, and we shall fail again just as the Soviets did.


I am referring to this part of the article: "But later the Taliban fighter was mutilated so his identity could be verified for DNA tests". Removing the head was totally unnecessary. Hair, skin... or if it really was necessary to remove part of the body, a finger would have done.

Oh and you'd be surprised at how much information Military Intelligence has on (senior) Taliban fighters and soldiers.

Well lets hope its a great deal better than the 'intelligence' they had on the Iraqi nuclear weapons.. which didnt exist. I am not fairly deep with Gurkha culture but I am sure that bringing back the head of your prey is a sign of honour amongst the Gurkha culture(?), maybe in a war sitution the soldier simply forgot the rules and regulations.

[Swastika]

Soldiers of the British army are trained vigorously to cope with the conditions presented to them on operations. The heat and weight of operational equipment is irrelevant to the act itself, as is to an extent the heavy fire they are under as again they are trained to deal with situations such as those. The Kukri is very sharp but decapitating someone with it is still quite a feat to achieve. It's a wonder than no fellow soldiers attempted to stop him but I would assume they were too busy returning fire and didn't think that he'd be attempting to remove the head of a fallen soldier. It would have been much faster to take a photo or remove a smaller part of the body such as hair, skin or even a finger in order to secure later DNA confirmation.
If he'd have removed the Taliban fighters finger, then surely the Afghans would still be offended because they still wouldn't have had the full body for a funeral/burial ceremony? Why are we even trying not to offend the Afghans? Political correctness before safety? I think so.
The majority of Afghans probably don't even like the BA being in Afghanistan, not to mention the ANA soldiers turning on British soldiers lately?
We are at war, i don''t know why you seem so sure that you wouldn't have chopped the fighters head off in a heated situation where grenades were probably going off all around you, automatic fire raining down on you and perhaps a Taliban sniper in the area. Like i said before it's probably the first thing that came into his head - and unless you've fought in Afghanistan i don't believe you have a right to say what he did was right or wrong.


We will never win in Afghanistan, we failed when we were able to rule a quarter of the world and we will fail again just as the Soviets did.

Our soldiers are dying, and for what?
I believe it's a black, thick substance that they keep "stumbling" across.

[Accipiter]

Well I think it might take while to hack off somebodys head and I can't imagine somebody didn't have a camera. Seriously not a normal thing to do.

Im guessing if he was a taliban leader his "ceremonial knife" will basically have been a machete, but i do agree, it takes what ever to do in war, but that was quite an demented move by the soldier. I could safely say i'd have to be pretty bent in the mind to chop anyones head off.

[Nixt]

Well lets hope its a great deal better than the 'intelligence' they had on the Iraqi nuclear weapons.. which didnt exist. I am not fairly deep with Gurkha culture but I am sure that bringing back the head of your prey is a sign of honour amongst the Gurkha culture(?), maybe in a war sitution the soldier simply forgot the rules and regulations.

"the head of your prey"? This is a war, not a hunting trip. Soldiers are trained to follow the "rules and regulations" you cite in a combat situation - that is the whole point of learning them.


If he'd have removed the Taliban fighters finger, then surely the Afghans would still be offended because they still wouldn't have had the full body for a funeral/burial ceremony? Why are we even trying not to offend the Afghans? Political correctness before safety? I think so.

Preferably the Gurkha could have removed a few hairs but, if it really was that intense, a finger would have done fine. A finger can be vaporised by a well placed gun shot, or misfiring of the Taliban's choice of weapon can cause severe damage to the hand. The Taliban would have assumed that is what had happened. Besides - the removal of a finger and the removal of a head, are they comparable? I think not.

This has nothing to do with safety? Or political correctness? The safety of the soldiers is obviously important, which is why they would have been outfitted with a camera or other form of equipment that could have been used to identify the fallen combatant. What has the fact he hacked off someone's head got to do with safety though? Doesn't really make sense.

As for political correctness, that is irrelevant too. As you cited below, there are people who don't want us over there (certainly not the majority, but a significant amount of those who aren't those we are fighting) and therefore we need to do the whole "hearts and minds" thing. That is key part of the operation - we need the full support of the Afghan people to successfully wipe out the individuals who pose a threat to this country and many others. If we're hacking off the heads of dead combatants, we are insulting them and their religion by behaving in that way.
The majority of Afghans probably don't even like the BA being in Afghanistan, not to mention the ANA soldiers turning on British soldiers lately?

We are at war, i don''t know why you seem so sure that you wouldn't have chopped the fighters head off in a heated situation where grenades were probably going off all around you, automatic fire raining down on you and perhaps a Taliban sniper in the area. Like i said before it's probably the first thing that came into his head - and unless you've fought in Afghanistan i don't believe you have a right to say what he did was right or wrong.

I have not, unfortunately, fought in an active combat situation however I have been involved in several exercises which attempt to recreate operational combat situations. I have also been involved in the planning an execution of an operation from a command perspective, and although I was not on the ground I can assure you, you get caught up in the situation. I have received exactly the same training as the Gurkha would have received and I know for a fact the training would not encourage you to behave in this manner and does, in fact, discourage any such behaviour quite strongly.