State of Management, Hiring, moderation etcetera [Archive]

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Chippiewill

08-10-2010, 06:20 PM

Because the Welcome Committee thread has turned into a review of management I have decided to create a new thread so that thread can focus a bit more.

Here are what I believe to be the main points:

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'
b) Management is not allowed to be criticized by users because "it's Jin's job", forum management specifically will close any thread putting members of their department under review.
c) Members of departments are being removed from those departments if they criticise it.
d) Hiring of staff is being rushed, checks are not being made to ensure that the moderator applying is knowledgeable / fits all criterion.
e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away
f) Nvr should be put back on the throne, ok, perhaps that's just my weird fantasy, although, if I'm choosing then FlyingJesus, JewishBear and Mentor would be good also.

I'll just quote some key points from the other thread:

I shall quite soon be jumping ship to CHF I think, with the recent appointment to the moderator position of someone who knows absolutely nothing about technology to the technology forum, it appears clear to me that the management of this forum lack the competency to perform a fair and rational job.

But hey, at least I get to **** about on CHF without having to worry what users are getting moderators spying on me trying to get me on something.

I shall be foruming as hard as always, putting my views and advice across as HxF crashes and burns as it is already slowly starting to do. Before it was just speculation and people getting laughed at for suggesting it. Now it's actually happening and it's quite fun to watch the users complain and nothing get done, so I'm gonna go ahead and throw my complaints in.

The server is a joke, nice 500 errors and timeouts, those optimisations SURE HELPED. Looks like it's boosting activity and uptime so much.

OThe staff, atmosphere of a nigh on totalitarian dictatorship and activity are all destroying this forum. And when you and your tiny views on how to manage a community finally widen enough to see what's going on, it'll be too late and everything you think it has been such a fantastic idea to have done will have all been for naught. You wont have anybody but the very few randomers coming in here, no regulars, no dedicated posters, nothing.

I don't have any responsibility, I have no addiction and no ties to this forum. You will criticise me and probably force upon me some sort of ridiculous post that attempts to debate what I have said.

Time and time again I have been right and this time is no different. I just like to do my research before posting things like this. So go ahead, criticise, flame and punish me, you'll only be re-enforcing what I've just said.

Quite the double-edged sword, running a forum. I have done all I can to attempt to open your eyes. It's your move, and I suspect you'll end up stumbling blind as always.

tl;dr:
server sucks, forum sucks, community is dying, forum is dying, activity is dying, management are blind and loving it.

Upper management's changed a lot since I was involved then lol

Let me quote Garion's PM

"Your obvious lack of faith in the ability of the committee to successfully achieve its aims suggests to me that you are no longer entirely suitable to the position." and the whole line had a hyper link to the PM.
Well done on making yourself look like a complete idiot by trying to act clever.

And wow, complete lack of faith? I suggested ideas to which neither James and Garion bothered replying to in the WC forums. Lack of faith? I think its them who cannot be bothered, not me. Oh what a surprise, most people are agreeing that its useless so remember if you are staff, never say a negative word or they will get rid of you.

Management needs to learn that whilst it's policy is not to have staff up to review by the forum users, users will leave due to bad decisions and for not being listened to, past management has had this view that they can ignore users on certain issues when they like and wont lose out from it and in some cases it must be done but, over do it and you end up with the draconian system that Habbox has become today where Management place power in those of their choosing regardless of public opinion. It has rubbed many users up the wrong way and leaves the forum in it's state today, declining.

Jamesy

08-10-2010, 06:33 PM

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'
I'd say from my perspective that it's only very rarely do we ignore users, usually simply because he who shouts loudest doesn't really represent the forum populace as a whole. I do admit I can be quick to say no and do a u-turn later when I've thought about it, so I apologise if this does occur.

b) Management is not allowed to be criticized by users because "it's Jin's job", forum management specifically will close any thread putting members of their department under review.
The only times I can remember closing threads were when public feedback threads turned personal against a new trialist, which wasn't fair on him. Theres a complaints for for that sort of issue or PMing members of gen / forum management too.

c) Members of departments are being removed from those departments if they criticise it.
Welcome committee was never a staff role and it clearly stated that if you turn away from being welcoming and behaved you can be removed. It's a rare circumstance and I've never thought to punish any of my staff for going against me in a feedback thread.

d) Hiring of staff is being rushed, checks are not being made to ensure that the moderator applying is knowledgeable / fits all criterion.
I wouldn't say rushed either. Admittedly mistakes were made but I trusted gut instinct on that one and I stand by it, next time around I will be making sure it is fairer though. Again I apologise for this.

e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away
I'm well aware of this and I'm on your side! I do want to free up some of the red tape surrounding posting and on sunday you'll see my first attempts to get it right. Slow steps, but I do know what you mean.

f) Nvr should be put back on the throne, ok, perhaps that's just my weird fantasy.
haha, I don't remember Nvr much :(

I hope these answers are satisfactory, I'm more than happy to build on them if you want :)

Nixt

08-10-2010, 06:38 PM

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'

I don't think anyone has said "we're not doing that because it is policy not to - please do refer me to where this has happened, as I am sure I can expand on it. As I said in the other thread, if you check the Development Announcements forum you will see that almost all of the Sunday Updates posted there a significant majority of the updates posted there were instigated by forum members. We are always keen to receive feedback and regularly act upon it (the most recent example that springs to mind is the comments regarding donations which instigated a discussion of substantial reform to the way donations are handled that should take place in the near future.

b) Management is not allowed to be criticized by users because "it's Jin's job", forum management specifically will close any thread putting members of their department under review.

You are fully entitled to criticise management if that is what you want to do. However, I assume you are referring to my comments regarding the server. Pray tell how current Management are supposed to apply any changes to the server when the powers to do so are held exclusively by Jin? Allow me to clarify - we are not hiding behind Jin, merely Jin is a) the only individual with the relevant access and b) the only person with the relevant knowledge to edit the server and that leaves us powerless. Criticise us for this all you want, but there is literally nothing we can do about it.

c) Members of departments are being removed from those departments if they criticise it.

Members of staff are not removed for criticising their department. The Welcome Committee is not a staff department, members are not staff and the Committee is not a staff department. Members of staff, on the other hand, are perfectly entitled to criticise their department if they follow the proper channels.

d) Hiring of staff is being rushed, checks are not being made to ensure that the moderator applying is knowledgeable / fits all criterion.

The recruitment of staff is not being rushed. The application procedure for any department is thorough and carefully administrated. You are clearly referring to the Apple situation, where a mistake was made on the length of time he had been a forum member. This was a mistake through miscounting the calendar (clearly quite a stupid mistake) but this does not indicate the hiring of staff is "rushed" and indeed, I do not regret this as Apple has more knowledge about the forum than some members who have been around for much longer and has proved himself, in the short time he has been a member, to be a valuable part of the community - the ideal Moderator.

e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away

It would make it far easier if you specified specific rules you think are over the top. That way I can respond to your feedback appropriately. Right now you are not telling me what rules are over the top - all of them? Some of them? I can then discuss how we could change these rules to make them less draconian.

As a starting point, on Sunday both the current pointless posting and bumping rules will be changed to make them more accommodating and less exorbitant.

f) Nvr should be put back on the throne, ok, perhaps that's just my weird fantasy.

Unfortunately, nvr left, so we have to focus on ensuring the current Management meet the standards expected by members rather than dwelling on the past!

Thanks for the feedback, I look forward to your expansions on it and the contribution of other members too.

Tintinnabulate

08-10-2010, 06:54 PM

e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away
I'm well aware of this and I'm on your side! I do want to free up some of the red tape surrounding posting and on sunday you'll see my first attempts to get it right. Slow steps, but I do know what you mean.

What a load of crap. If you believed that, then you wouldn't have gone "criticise mods and i will have you warned for pointless posting" in my threadin feedback. Its simply you going power mad and abusing it. Maybe you are unaware (although you were a smod then so unless you did **** all as a smod you should know this) that the rule was changed so if a new topic comes up as a link to a new post, we are free to discuss it. Maybe you do not look at feedback threads enough to see thats what happens frequently and thats why we have had some long feedback threads. It starts as one topic and goes through 10 topics producing ideas for all of them.

Like I said, its hypocritical for you to agree and create idiotic rules yourself in the previous thread.

@ Jamesy and Garion, stop using the "WC is not a staff role" excuse. You well know what he meant.
Also Jamesy, where did it say "and it clearly stated that if you turn away from being welcoming ", stop making up bull ****. It doesn't say it in any of the WC threads or PMs I received and do not bother editing them now as I have a copy of them all.
My thread did not turn away from being welcoming, I have always been polite to new members and if you look, only my replies were not robotic like "welcome, read the rules, enjoy". Mine tried to start a convo rather than tell them to read the rules etc bull crap. Besides the PM stated I was removed because of the thread so stop making up crap.

Enjoy.

---------- Post added 08-10-2010 at 07:55 PM ----------

It would make it far easier if you specified specific rules you think are over the top. That way I can respond to your feedback appropriately. Right now you are not telling me what rules are over the top - all of them? Some of them? I can then discuss how we could change these rules to make them less draconian.

I sent you a long PM regarding that with suggestions yet I didn't get a reply so :S

Nixt

08-10-2010, 07:00 PM

Chippiewill

08-10-2010, 07:06 PM

Review of Management Disallowed:
http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=611046

I know it's old, but I'm working from the back.

The recruitment of staff is not being rushed. The application procedure for any department is thorough and carefully administrated. You are clearly referring to the Apple situation, where a mistake was made on the length of time he had been a forum member. This was a mistake through miscounting the calendar (clearly quite a stupid mistake) but this does not indicate the hiring of staff is "rushed" and indeed, I do not regret this as Apple has more knowledge about the forum than some members who have been around for much longer and has proved himself, in the short time he has been a member, to be a valuable part of the community - the ideal Moderator.
If a mistake is only EVER made it is due to it being rushed, when moderators are hired their applications must be double checked, triple checked, quadruple checked and checked until you find a mistake. Also I am not just referring to Apple, if you had read my quotes you would have noticed someone becoming a moderator in a forum where it probably isn't appropriate.

You are fully entitled to criticise management if that is what you want to do. However, I assume you are referring to my comments regarding the server. Pray tell how current Management are supposed to apply any changes to the server when the powers to do so are held exclusively by Jin? Allow me to clarify - we are not hiding behind Jin, merely Jin is a) the only individual with the relevant access and b) the only person with the relevant knowledge to edit the server and that leaves us powerless. Criticise us for this all you want, but there is literally nothing we can do about it.

Actually here I am referring to incidents in the past where members of management are criticised and the thread is almost always locked right away. By being management they are in the spotlight, as well as praise they must be prepared to be criticised.

Members of staff are not removed for criticising their department. The Welcome Committee is not a staff department, members are not staff and the Committee is not a staff department. Members of staff, on the other hand, are perfectly entitled to criticise their department if they follow the proper channels.
Ok, but they are still a group endorsed by the management and someone being removed from that group hoping to improve it certainly isn't fair.

Also a new point:

Complaints forum - Why can only STAFF reply, this means that the OP has little help with their argument trying to improve the forum and it really means that a key point could be missed as staff all pile in to batter the OP down.

@above What a load of nonsense, seriously, he tries to improve something and he's removed and you pass it off as negative attitude, from his screenies it looked like he was the only active member?!?!

Edit: In fact, it's even an example of a rushed decision, he was removed after just a couple of hours?

Saurav, the feedback you have to offer on the rules (RE: the PM you sent me) is really relevant and important I feel. I'm just going to ask here, can we please not turn this thread into a discussion on your removal from the Committee. It will make absolutely no difference, if you want to complain about it Matt and Jin are there. This thread could well reap some excellent feedback so let's keep it focused on the problems we're currently encountering rather than your removal from the Committee. I'll reiterate: posting about it here is not going to change what happened, and I look forward to your feedback on the rules.
It is not about his removal specifically, it is that a member of any group endorsed or run by the Management can be closed for a member criticising its current iteration openly to get other people's opinions. If I'm a DJ, the server goes down and I complain openly why should I be removed?

Inseriousity.

08-10-2010, 07:17 PM

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'

I don't really think it's because of policy, it's because they have to look at other factors before coming to a decision. It's a bit like the government; you can go to them with a suggestion but that doesn't mean they'll implement it because they have to look at the bigger picture which some members do not always do when they suggest something.

b) Management is not allowed to be criticized by users because "it's Jin's job", forum management specifically will close any thread putting members of their department under review.

I've never really been a fan of general/forum management closing threads because it's normally better if they're just left to 'die out' and other members might want to give their opinion to the topic. Obviously, their reasoning is that they're not going to change their minds and I suppose it does seem fruitless to keep a topic open if it's not going to change (this is only for a minority of suggestions though) but it does come across as a bit 'we're in charge, shut up and do as we say.' Not the intended intention but that attitude does come across. However, just because management say no to suggestions doesn't mean they don't listen however they have a lot more factors to consider (the effect on staff in the dept. etc) before they can make changes.

c) Members of departments are being removed from those departments if they criticise it.

This isn't really true; I made a thread in the HxHD staff forum with some suggestions about how to improve and I wasn't fired from the team. Personally, I don't think Saurav should have been removed but your statement seems to suggest it happens across all departments but it's an exception to the norm.

d) Hiring of staff is being rushed, checks are not being made to ensure that the moderator applying is knowledgeable / fits all criterion.

Hiring of staff isn't rushed and tbh I wish it was quicker! There's a whole lot of hoops to jump through. I'm only comps manager and I imagine that there are a lot more hoops for the moderation department as it's a more "important" job (comps still rule though, woo).

e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away

I agree. I also think that new members are seen as an 'easy target' by the moderators to boost their logs. It's been a while since I was there but there were a lot of posts with 'this member's signature is too big' etc and 9 times out of ten, they'd be new users because obviously, they don't know the rules that well (I don't know anyone who actually reads their welcome PM or the rules, I certainly didn't anyway!).

f) Nvr should be put back on the throne, ok, perhaps that's just my weird fantasy, although, if I'm choosing then FlyingJesus, JewishBear and Mentor would be good also.

A weird fantasy but I suppose you can keep dreaming :P

Overall though, I don't think management (particularly forum management) are given enough credit for the hard job they choose to do voluntarily. It's very easy to criticise and moan 'oh he's useless' (not saying you are!) but they have to make quick decisions over what is possible, what isn't possible, what can improve the forum, what won't improve the forum. I stick with the philosophy that you can't please everyone and when you try, you end up pleasing no-one. Management try their best to please the majority but they also make mistakes. It's a sign of a good manager if they do not let their mistakes get the better of them but come out stronger and better than before and I think Habbox management are quite good at that. Not perfect but quite good :)

AgnesIO

08-10-2010, 07:24 PM

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'
As far as I am concerned management listen to users FAR more than they did at one point.

b) Management is not allowed to be criticized by users because "it's Jin's job", forum management specifically will close any thread putting members of their department under review.
Management CAN be criticised by users, however not too much. If I made a thread criticising a user it would be closed. So I don't see why this should be any different.

c) Members of departments are being removed from those departments if they criticise it.
I am unsure about this, as I do not see the full reason why Saurav was removed. However I don't think something that happened to one user is a particularly fair reason to moan.

d) Hiring of staff is being rushed, checks are not being made to ensure that the moderator applying is knowledgeable / fits all criterion.

I cannot BELIEVE, people are still moaning about the Apple thing. Seriously stop moaning, and grow up. Apple is doing a fine job, and I wish him all the best.

e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away
Rules are quite strict, but on the other hand I like the fact that as a user, if you behave you know you won't get moaned at, and users who are rude etc can be stopped, without it being seen as 'harsh'. I think some rules do need to be relaxed though.

f) Nvr should be put back on the throne, ok, perhaps that's just my weird fantasy, although, if I'm choosing then FlyingJesus, JewishBear and Mentor would be good also.
Not even going to bother replying to this.

Nixt

08-10-2010, 07:27 PM

Review of Management Disallowed:
http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=611046

I know it's old, but I'm working from the back.

Any recent examples? That was then, this is now. Things have changed considerably! However a thread singling out and criticising a single individual isn't allowed - that is tantamount to bullying, is it not? If I created a thread in spam and said "Corrrr, that Chippiewill is awful" and people started posting saying "yeah I agree blah blah", I think it is fair to say that removing it would be the right thing to do. The same applies when people are quite rudely and indeed unfairly criticising an individual member of Management. A thread saying "XX is crap they need to be fired" is really demeaning and can upset a person who may well have put a lot of effort into Habbox. A much fairer, and correct route to take would be to PM their immediate manager who will always take into account what you have said and deal with it appropriately.

If a mistake is only EVER made it is due to it being rushed, when moderators are hired their applications must be double checked, triple checked, quadruple checked and checked until you find a mistake. Also I am not just referring to Apple, if you had read my quotes you would have noticed someone becoming a moderator in a forum where it probably isn't appropriate.

Before being hired people are checked over and over, by myself and their Manager. It was a one off and inevitably people slip through the net sometimes. I have accepted that as my mistake and will bear it in mind in the future, although as I say I do think Apple was an excellent appointment. If you believe an individual isn't appropriate to a specific Forum - you need only contact Jamesy and explain why you don't think this is the case, and justify this with evidence, and then this will be addressed. Merely saying "OMG XX IS CRAP AND SHOULDN'T BE IN XY FORUM" is not really justifying your reasoning. People can often be successful in forums they do not necessarily frequent. We do strive to ensure members with relevant knowledge are placed in relevant forums, this isn't always possible! The key thing is Moderators are here to enforce the rules, their knowledge isn't always relevant. Providing they can spot a rule break and deal with it appropriately, we can be content with that until someone with relevant expertise can be appointed there. In some cases, we will have one person with relevant knowledge and occasionally someone without. Additionally a Moderator who isn't sure about a certain topic can always contact those in the know to take appropriate action.

If you feel that a Moderator is failing their mandate because of the forum they are in, please contact James. I know he would be keen to hear from you.

Actually here I am referring to incidents in the past where members of management are criticised and the thread is almost always locked right away. By being management they are in the spotlight, as well as praise they must be prepared to be criticised.

As I said, singling out individuals is unfair and tantamount to bullying. Remember Management here are not adults and they are volunteers. Criticising them as an individual can often upset them, considerably, and we won't allow that. You can however complain about individuals via the relevant channels. We're not going to allow you to post a thread saying "Nixt is an awful AGM!", because that might upset people and in addition these results in people jumping on the ol' bandwagon and unjustifiably being rude to people.

Ok, but they are still a group endorsed by the management and someone being removed from that group hoping to improve it certainly isn't fair.

See my reply to Saurav.
Also a new point:

Complaints forum - Why can only STAFF reply, this means that the OP has little help with their argument trying to improve the forum and it really means that a key point could be missed as staff all pile in to batter the OP down.

Only the Forum and General Management can reply, and this is because it is a complaint. When you complain to say, your ISP, do you invite all the other customers to join in? Complaints are problems individuals are experiencing. If it is a broad issue, they can post it in feedback.

@above What a load of nonsense, seriously, he tries to improve something and he's removed and you pass it off as negative attitude, from his screenies it looked like he was the only active member?!?!

Edit: In fact, it's even an example of a rushed decision, he was removed after just a couple of hours?

Not discussing this, as per my above post, Saurav can contact Jin / Matt directly.

rnix

08-10-2010, 07:28 PM

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'
management are better. they used to be ****.

b) Management is not allowed to be criticized by users because "it's Jin's job", forum management specifically will close any thread putting members of their department under review.
You can always send a PM to someone regarding staff.

c) Members of departments are being removed from those departments if they criticise it.
Someone else said it and i cba to quote it.

d) Hiring of staff is being rushed, checks are not being made to ensure that the moderator applying is knowledgeable / fits all criterion.

I cannot BELIEVE, people are still moaning about the Apple thing. Seriously stop moaning, and grow up. Apple is doing a fine job, and I wish him all the best. << what he said

e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away
Rules are quite strict, but on the other hand I like the fact that as a user, if you behave you know you won't get moaned at, and users who are rude etc can be stopped, without it being seen as 'harsh'. I think some rules do need to be relaxed though. << what he said

f) Nvr should be put back on the throne, ok, perhaps that's just my weird fantasy, although, if I'm choosing then FlyingJesus, JewishBear and Mentor would be good also.
Not even going to bother replying to this. << what he said

Yeah, i really can't be bothered to read all the threads from different managers probs defending everything.
I know i moan alot but really this thread is tad ott.

taaaaaaaaaa

Tintinnabulate

08-10-2010, 07:28 PM

Given that it's not a staff role, which was made clear, I can post the PM:

Hi Saurav,

Just to let you know that I have decided to remove you from the Welcome Committee. Right now, in its early stages, the Committee needs keen and positive people who strive to ensure that it is successful.

Unfortunately, your recent persistent negativity around the forum and your obvious lack of faith in the ability of the committee to successfully achieve its aims (http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=669123) suggests to me that you are no longer entirely suitable to the position.

Kind regards,

Nixt

------

I stand by it, you may disagree, but I can't help but feel that someone who wants the Welcome Committee to be abolished isn't really suitable for it. We want people on the Committee who are keen to make it try and work, and unfortunately you are not in the mindset and that is clear. Anyway, I'm not going to discuss this matter any further. If you disagree with it then you can contact either xxMATTGxx or Jin with an appeal.

Saurav, the feedback you have to offer on the rules (RE: the PM you sent me) is really relevant and important I feel. I'm just going to ask here, can we please not turn this thread into a discussion on your removal from the Committee. It will make absolutely no difference, if you want to complain about it Matt and Jin are there. This thread could well reap some excellent feedback so let's keep it focused on the problems we're currently encountering rather than your removal from the Committee. I'll reiterate: posting about it here is not going to change what happened, and I look forward to your feedback on the rules.

I thought posting any PMs was against the rules without the permission of the other user or has that rule now been abolished too?

Lol you seem to think I want the job back? I did not even ask for it back in my reply. I think my reply actually showed how pathetic you are being and showed you that you do exactly the same thing, yet I do not see you removing yourself? I can post the reply you gave me to it if posting PMs is now allowed and is not related to staff removal. Obviously I will not post the details but you know fully well what I am on about. If you removed me for having a lack of faith then you should resign or fire yourself for the same reason and you know what those reasons are. All it is, is a load of crap.

I only posted anything even remotely related to it as the OP mentioned it.

Chippiewill

08-10-2010, 07:31 PM

I don't really think it's because of policy, it's because they have to look at other factors before coming to a decision. It's a bit like the government; you can go to them with a suggestion but that doesn't mean they'll implement it because they have to look at the bigger picture which some members do not always do when they suggest something.
I think I badly worded this one, I need an example but I'm still looking for one, although you basically had a reply to this in the next point.

This isn't really true; I made a thread in the HxHD staff forum with some suggestions about how to improve and I wasn't fired from the team. Personally, I don't think Saurav should have been removed but your statement seems to suggest it happens across all departments but it's an exception to the norm.
Again, badly worded, I meant openly. If Saurav hadn't made a post then I wouldn't have found out, he tried 'somewhat' official channels via the specific forum however that did not succeed presumably so we was forced to make a post in feedback to get an answer.

Hiring of staff isn't rushed and tbh I wish it was quicker! There's a whole lot of hoops to jump through. I'm only comps manager and I imagine that there are a lot more hoops for the moderation department as it's a more "important" job (comps still rule though, woo).
As I posted above, if a mistake has ever been made then a decision was rushed, end of.

I agree. I also think that new members are seen as an 'easy target' by the moderators to boost their logs. It's been a while since I was there but there were a lot of posts with 'this member's signature is too big' etc and 9 times out of ten, they'd be new users because obviously, they don't know the rules that well (I don't know anyone who actually reads their welcome PM or the rules, I certainly didn't anyway!).
These seems like a general consensus and I'm glad it's being addressed, I need some more specific examples of rules which should be reviewed which I'll do later.

Edit:

You can always send a PM to someone regarding staff.
Limited exposure, no one can add their two cents or further evidence. A thread in feedback is 9x more effective at providing evidence and getting answers.

I cannot BELIEVE, people are still moaning about the Apple thing. Seriously stop moaning, and grow up. Apple is doing a fine job, and I wish him all the best. << what he said
Again, not just Apple specifically he was an example that it was rushed, he's a great moderator and I wish him the best but those regulations are there for a reason. However, I do not want this to be a discussion about that, I know it wont be changed and by the event of it occurring I'm sure it wont occur again.

Any recent examples? That was then, this is now. Things have changed considerably! However a thread singling out and criticising a single individual isn't allowed - that is tantamount to bullying, is it not? If I created a thread in spam and said "Corrrr, that Chippiewill is awful" and people started posting saying "yeah I agree blah blah", I think it is fair to say that removing it would be the right thing to do. The same applies when people are quite rudely and indeed unfairly criticising an individual member of Management. A thread saying "XX is crap they need to be fired" is really demeaning and can upset a person who may well have put a lot of effort into Habbox. A much fairer, and correct route to take would be to PM their immediate manager who will always take into account what you have said and deal with it appropriately.
That thread was a poll asking for opinions, because a couple of people disagreed it was closed.

Also, please stop lying to me:

You are fully entitled to criticise management if that is what you want to do.

If you feel that a Moderator is failing their mandate because of the forum they are in, please contact James. I know he would be keen to hear from you.
Why must everything be done via a PM, it's ineffective and it's always passed around so that the decision can be agreed by a whole bunch of staff and disagreed by one person, threads are far more effective.

As I said, singling out individuals is unfair and tantamount to bullying. Remember Management here are not adults and they are volunteers. Criticising them as an individual can often upset them, considerably, and we won't allow that. You can however complain about individuals via the relevant channels. We're not going to allow you to post a thread saying "Nixt is an awful AGM!", because that might upset people and in addition these results in people jumping on the ol' bandwagon and unjustifiably being rude to people.
That is basically pointless posting, what I am for is posting reasons why someone should not have that job in public, Politicians are in the firing line the entire time, why not management.

Only the Forum and General Management can reply, and this is because it is a complaint. When you complain to say, your ISP, do you invite all the other customers to join in? Complaints are problems individuals are experiencing. If it is a broad issue, they can post it in feedback.
http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=668192
http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=667610
http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=666750
All broad issues, it should be management's responsibility to move these threads if appropriate, which, in most cases they are.

Tintinnabulate

08-10-2010, 07:32 PM

AgnesIO

08-10-2010, 07:37 PM

Also I like how you removed me for "having a lack of faith" etc, yet you and Jamesy have ignored my point every time I have said if you had faith, why did you (or any other members) not bother replying to my post in the WC Members only forum which contained ideas on how to develop it?

It showed me that YOU had no faith and clearly could not be bothered with it as it had no reply for over three days hence I was forced to make the thread I made.

Or it showed they were busy. Oh no, surely not.

I think I badly worded this one, I need an example but I'm still looking for one, although you basically had a reply to this in the next point.

Again, badly worded, I meant openly. If Saurav hadn't made a post then I wouldn't have found out, he tried 'somewhat' official channels via the specific forum however that did not succeed presumably so we was forced to make a post in feedback to get an answer.

As I posted above, if a mistake has ever been made then a decision was rushed, end of.

These seems like a general consensus and I'm glad it's being addressed, I need some more specific examples of rules which should be reviewed which I'll do later.

I am bloody pleased a mistake was made, if we are still calling it a mistake. Mistakes can be made however long you spend on something. Look at the glitch on Gran Turismo 5 where the track disappears - and they are paid professionals, who spent years making it!

-:Undertaker:-

08-10-2010, 07:41 PM

I would agree to an extent and i'll give an example - the thread questioning me over the Samovar crisis was closed for no apparent reason, i'm not above criticism and do not expect to be hence why I replied to the thread by making another thread and strangely that was not closed (because I suspect I am staff). The probem with this though, is that it allows staff who are in the wrong to be above criticism.

Nixt

08-10-2010, 07:46 PM

Inseriousity.

08-10-2010, 07:47 PM

-:Undertaker:-

08-10-2010, 07:48 PM

The original thread was closed because the Moderator in question was worried it would offend / upset / annoy you, the second thread (your reply) was not closed because it was your reply and this demonstrated you were not in fact offended but wanted to get your point across.

I am sure if you ask 99% of our staff they will tell you that staff do not get away with breaking the rules under my iron fist, be it on the forum or on Habbo.

But thats what I mean - somebody in the wrong would be upset at somebody questioning their decisions, so it means people are then above critcism which is wrong. If anything, Habbox staff and management should be under more criticism than anybody else as we run the site - it makes us accountable to Habbox users.

Tintinnabulate

08-10-2010, 07:48 PM

Nixt

08-10-2010, 07:49 PM

But thats what I mean - somebody in the wrong would be upset at somebody questioning their decisions, so it means people are then above critcism. If anything, Habbox staff and management should be under more criticism than anybody else - it makes us all accountable to Habbox users.

Criticism and wrongly accusing someone of fixing rare values a couple of years ago are, in my opinion, inherently different.

Chippiewill

08-10-2010, 07:50 PM

I am bloody pleased a mistake was made, if we are still calling it a mistake. Mistakes can be made however long you spend on something. Look at the glitch on Gran Turismo 5 where the track disappears - and they are paid professionals, who spent years making it!
Games are extremely intricate things, however a date miscalculation is not difficult to check, if you check your results of working out how long someone has been registered more than once ninety-nine times out of one hundred a the mistake will be amended. Just like a maths exam.

-:Undertaker:-

08-10-2010, 07:52 PM

Criticism and wrongly accusing someone of fixing rare values a couple of years ago are, in my opinion, inherently different.

But who is to know that I didn't fix them if I refuse to defend myself - thats why I replied back to the poster, imagine if I hadn't replied - it gives the impression that myself and Habbox in general has something to hide.

Imagine say if I accused you of something totally made up (lets say stealing money from Habbox funds), if every thread was closed by Habbox staff with no response from yourself then people would actually start to believe the claim i've made up - the best way to deal with false accusations is to hit them head on rather than avoid them.

Nixt

08-10-2010, 07:52 PM

Games are extremely intricate things, however a date miscalculation is not difficult to check, if you check your results of working out how long someone has been registered more than once ninety-nine times out of one hundred a the mistake will be amended. Just like a maths exam.

And I will learn from my mistake, as I have said. In all honesty I relied too much on the assumption that he had been around longer, given that he was so established, and thus the mistake was made. I can only learn from it, I've said I made the mistake and will endeavour not to make it again on several occasions - I don't know what else you, or anybody, wants me to do.

If anything though, it is a tribute to him, given that I thought that he had been around three months and was surprised at my miscalculation, as he had established himself so quickly.

@ Dan, you make a fair point. However making accusations such as that is against the rules and it was therefore dealt as such. I think the point is here that we need to encourage Moderators to use their discretion more often but a lot of people would have preferred not to feel targeted in such a manner, hence why it was closed. But I do see your point.

Chippiewill

08-10-2010, 07:58 PM

Again, badly worded, I meant openly. If Saurav hadn't made a post then I wouldn't have found out, he tried 'somewhat' official channels via the specific forum however that did not succeed presumably so we was forced to make a post in feedback to get an answer.

Even if I posted it in feedback, I wouldn't have been fired because every manager listens to feedback but they don't always have to agree/implement it. If they implemented everything members suggested, the forum would probably be 10 times slower (all those add-ons :P) and as someone correctly pointed out in the other thread, these server problems are already making it soooo slow! Although this isn't the fault of management, it unfortunately goes beyond that :(

Could you please state where in this thread I have suggested every suggestion should be added and we are PAST the server issues, I did not quote it because it's stupid in this thread. Stop putting words in my mouth

As I posted above, if a mistake has ever been made then a decision was rushed, end of.

Not really. It's a big jump to suggest mistake = rush. They could have spent weeks combing through the records of members and could have still missed it. They're not robots and sometimes being tired, having-a-piece-of-homework-that-really-should-have-been-done-a-week-ago or all sorts of reasons could be a reason why they missed it not because they were rushing through it.

As pre-stated, date of joining and current date isn't difficult to count.

Limited exposure, no one can add their two cents or further evidence. A thread in feedback is 9x more effective at providing evidence and getting answers.

Regardless, for the vast majority of cases, people receive a reply quickly. If it's a general complaint then it can be posted in a thread so others can add their opinions but if a complaint gets too personal (lol the thread in the hxhd staff forum I posted, for example, was a bit too personal and that bit of the thread was rightly removed) then I think management have the right to a) close the thread or b) remove the personal insults and leave the constructive feedback.

"no one can add their two cents or further evidence" this only applies in non-personal incidents, again, stop putting words in my mouth, sheesh.

And I will learn from my mistake, as I have said. In all honesty I relied too much on the assumption that he had been around longer, given that he was so established, and thus the mistake was made. I can only learn from it, I've said I made the mistake and will endeavour not to make it again on several occasions - I don't know what else you, or anybody, wants me to do.
It was just an example and as I have already stated I knew such a mistake would not be made again because of it, the mistake in itself is progress.

If anything though, it is a tribute to him, given that I thought that he had been around three months and was surprised at my miscalculation, as he had established himself so quickly.
Agreed, just an example, not a personal dig.

Agnostic Bear

08-10-2010, 08:02 PM

(Posted this in the wrong thread, oops!)

After reviewing this thread and almost being brought to tears at your walk into doing exactly what I said you would, I offer these key points:

I'll start off with the server which we all agree is in a complete state at the moment and certainly not to a standard we believe is acceptable. Unfortunately the only individual with access and the ability to appropriately optimise it is Jin and I am of the understanding that he will be banging heads together with some friends in order to ensure it is fixed as soon as possible, as will the HabboxLive Radio. Unfortunately, the server is completely out of the hands of Forum and General Management and as much as I would like to say it will be fixed, I can't because it is not within my power to do so.

The optimisations are because of Jin. The downtime is because of Jin. The 500 errors are because of Jin. To put it in perspective for you: IP.Board's Community Forum (http://community.invisionpower.com) runs on a VPS and is significantly faster and more active. vBulletin.com's community software runs on several servers just to get it to be as fast as IP.Board, I have told him this, but he fobs it off because he knows what's best always.

Which is quite convenient as it leads me onto the next point:

Regarding our "totalitarian dictatorship". I'd urge you to check the development announcements forum, and read each set of Sunday updates introduced. I'd urge you also to look toward this Sunday where we are implementing numerous things on the basis of members suggestions. The Sunday updates are almost exclusively the product of member suggestions, adjusted appropriately by Management - this has been the case for a while now, and is in stark contrast with the system that was in place under previous General Managers. I would ask you to justify how you believe we are a totalitarian dictatorship?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism First paragraph. Also done.

As I say, if you have any specific feedback on what we're doing wrong, I'll welcome it with open arms.

Your entire management structure is wrong, I thought I was quite clear on that? Apparently that just shot right over that noggin of yours.

Anyway as before I am still right and I look forward to your replies (Or a closing of the thread) SOON.

Chippiewill

08-10-2010, 08:07 PM

Your entire management structure is wrong, I thought I was quite clear on that? Apparently that just shot right over that noggin of yours.
Examples would be helpful.

Anyway as before I am still right and I look forward to your replies (Or a closing of the thread) SOON.
If that occurs then they are hypocrites, the only way this could occur is if people supporting my argument get a bit too hot headed and start lashing out, so think before you hit submit, I know from experience how easy it is to get angry at these things.

Inseriousity.

08-10-2010, 08:09 PM

Nixt

08-10-2010, 08:13 PM

The optimisations are because of Jin. The downtime is because of Jin. The 500 errors are because of Jin. To put it in perspective for you: IP.Board's Community Forum (http://community.invisionpower.com) runs on a VPS and is significantly faster and more active. vBulletin.com's community software runs on several servers just to get it to be as fast as IP.Board, I have told him this, but he fobs it off because he knows what's best always.

I think you got the threads confused, but I'll reply anyway, bringing your feedback into this thread would be better. Anyway regarding the server, I agree. I didn't dispute that the server is in a state, I merely said that it is not in my power to fix it - or even that of the General Manager. It rests solely with Jin, but it does need addressing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism First paragraph. Also done.

You haven't really "done" anything. I responded to your accusations that we are totalitarian. We do not ensure absolute control of everything. We regularly listen to, respond to and implement member feedback. Justify your points before you make them, sir. A link to Wikipedia doesn't help anyone [Citation Needed]. At least properly reply to my original post on the matter:

Regarding our "totalitarian dictatorship". I'd urge you to check the development announcements forum, and read each set of Sunday updates introduced. I'd urge you also to look toward this Sunday where we are implementing numerous things on the basis of members suggestions. The Sunday updates are almost exclusively the product of member suggestions, adjusted appropriately by Management - this has been the case for a while now, and is in stark contrast with the system that was in place under previous General Managers. I would ask you to justify how you believe we are a totalitarian dictatorship? We are constantly looking for feedback and always respond to it. Yes, we reject things, but this isn't often and not if we thought it would outright damage the forum.

Your entire management structure is wrong, I thought I was quite clear on that? Apparently that just shot right over that noggin of yours.

As Chippiewill said, examples of what is wrong with it would be great. What could we do to improve the Management structure? Your post in the other thread didn't reference the structure directly, as far as I can see? Although I could be mistaken.

Chippiewill

08-10-2010, 08:15 PM

Could you please state where in this thread I have suggested every suggestion should be added and we are PAST the server issues, I did not quote it because it's stupid in this thread. Stop putting words in my mouth

I'm not putting words in your mouth, they're my words not yours. I was replying ofc to the 'every manager listens to feedback but they may not agree/implement it' whether it's an open complaint or not.

This doesn't make sense

As pre-stated, date of joining and current date isn't difficult to count.

Maybe not but mistakes do happen. Always will :)

Agreed, but they can be reduced.

"no one can add their two cents or further evidence" this only applies in non-personal incidents, again, stop putting words in my mouth, sheesh.

Again, not putting words in your mouth, they're mine. My first sentence there was refering solely to the 'getting answers' and saying that limited exposure does not mean you won't get answers. What's your definition of a non-personal incident, however? It obviously seems straightforward but I don't really think there's ever a non-personal incident because all incidents are personal in some way to make the user feel the necessity to complain about it. :)
a) Stop being pedantic
b) That entire statement only applies on non-personal complaints, therefore stating that it is inappropriate for posting entirely personal statements as a thread in feedback is correct but irrelevant because I never said it should have been.

@below I don't have any further examples, but I agree it is minimal and probably acceptable and I'm sure from now on you'll even check if they somehow amass 20,000 posts.

Nixt

08-10-2010, 08:17 PM

Agreed, but they can be reduced.

They can, but you have only cited one mistake, so one would assume that the amount of mistakes made are currently very minimal anyway :).

And we will, of course, continue to ensure that no mistakes are made, and we will definitely learn from any mistakes made.

Chippiewill

08-10-2010, 08:20 PM

Wikipedia?? According to you I might be fighting for the red army, but you sir are not allowed to operate on me if you're using Wikipedia as your source :P
Wikipedia by an independant study (I don't have the link right this second) was proven to be more reliable than the Encyclopaedia Britannica. Unless you fully understand the way it works (Which isn't just trololol I can edit every page) then you should probably give up on that.

So what is a jin?
He co-owns habbox and maintains the server e.t.c.

agree but there's no point complaining most of the time management will try twist something to make it look like they are correct
Rock solid argument = change

Edit: Also that particular Wiki article was properly referenced etcetera

Richie

08-10-2010, 08:21 PM

So what is a jin?

I agree but there's no point complaining most of the time management will try twist something to make it look like they are correct :P

Chippiewill

08-10-2010, 09:19 PM

GommeInc

08-10-2010, 09:20 PM

f) Nvr should be put back on the throne, ok, perhaps that's just my weird fantasy, although, if I'm choosing then FlyingJesus, JewishBear and Mentor would be good also.
Mentor left ages ago because he couldn't take the lack of common sense and lack of respect for members. He was going to put in a bid for the forum so it can work on a real server and be updated ASAP if and when troubles arise, but I don't even think it went anywhere and was just an idea that wasn't shared with anyone on the forum. Besides, he's working on his site now and is happy enough to just use the forum that goes with it, which I'm dealing with :P

Anyway, back on topic... Did I die for a few months? I could of sworn things were improving :/ Did the rules get annoyingly updated when all that effort went in to tidy them up and remove the threatening wording?

Chippiewill

08-10-2010, 09:33 PM

Mentor left ages ago because he couldn't take the lack of common sense and lack of respect for members. He was going to put in a bid for the forum so it can work on a real server and be updated ASAP if and when troubles arise, but I don't even think it went anywhere and was just an idea that wasn't shared with anyone on the forum. Besides, he's working on his site now and is happy enough to just use the forum that goes with it, which I'm dealing with :P

Rather ironically the rule he left over has now since been amended.

Anyway, back on topic... Did I die for a few months? I could of sworn things were improving :/ Did the rules get annoyingly updated when all that effort went in to tidy them up and remove the threatening wording?
It was progress, but not complete. There are some issues and as I've said, the interpretation is perhaps over the top.

AgnesIO

08-10-2010, 09:36 PM

Mentor left ages ago because he couldn't take the lack of common sense and lack of respect for members. He was going to put in a bid for the forum so it can work on a real server and be updated ASAP if and when troubles arise, but I don't even think it went anywhere and was just an idea that wasn't shared with anyone on the forum. Besides, he's working on his site now and is happy enough to just use the forum that goes with it, which I'm dealing with :P

Anyway, back on topic... Did I die for a few months? I could of sworn things were improving :/ Did the rules get annoyingly updated when all that effort went in to tidy them up and remove the threatening wording?

No the rules didn't get stricter imo. Just users seem to forget everything older than one month, and never, ever, stop moaning.

---

And jewishbear as manager? If you want someone to listen, so offence to jb, but he isn't who you want..

Chippiewill

08-10-2010, 09:41 PM

No the rules didn't get stricter imo. Just users seem to forget everything older than one month, and never, ever, stop moaning.

---

And jewishbear as manager? If you want someone to listen, so offence to jb, but he isn't who you want..

JB would be awesome, no nonsense!

One improvement to rules is not enough, we must strive to improve till the rules are great as the once were! Flawed with holes n' stuff! (Although I do enjoy a good moan)

Tintinnabulate

08-10-2010, 10:25 PM

What we need a management who stop trying to make crappy things work when every member is against it.
What we need is relaxed rules and please dont say "well suggest changes then" as Garion has a copy of the changes I would make but am awaiting his reply.

You know its ridiculous when a fansite is stricter than the site its a fansite of.

Right now, they are enjoying the success of past management, that is all. Jin, it seems, fails to realise Habbox is no longer the best and needs attention.

Agnostic Bear

08-10-2010, 11:05 PM

We do not ensure absolute control of everything. We regularly listen to, respond to and implement member feedback. Justify your points before you make them, sir.
Apparently you are unable to read or comprehend simple English, you accept feedback but still maintain a dictatorship. There is no voting on anything that you don't want to have voted on. If you want it you get it, there's no user input, it just happens. A prime example of guess what? A totalitarian dictatorship.

The users can't veto things they don't want, they don't get a vote for new features unless management explicitly says "we're not sure, you can decide for us". "BUT THAT'S NOT TOTALITARIAN!" oh wait. it is. It's just you're unwilling to see that at the end of the day that's what's happening.

A link to Wikipedia doesn't help anyone [Citation Needed]. At least properly reply to my original post on the matter:
A link to wikipedia directing you to exactly what you need to read to prove my point is very helpful and to the point. In case you hadn't noticed I've been going on a simplicity drive recently. I much prefer to project as much as possible with as little as possible.

As Chippiewill said, examples of what is wrong with it would be great. What could we do to improve the Management structure? Your post in the other thread didn't reference the structure directly, as far as I can see? Although I could be mistaken.

Ok hold on here we go strap yourself in:
1) 1 Global manager for the entire Habbox network. Has veto power over any top level stuff like general firing and such.
2) 3 Global managers for the individual habbox sites (HxF, Habbox, Habbox Radio or wahtever you're calling it). Not "Staff" or "Forum" just forum, radio, site. They have their own powers on their own sites but cannot interfere with other sites without the express permission of the global manager.

3) 1 assistant for each of the managers, no more than 1 ever. Any more creates problems when differences crop up between the assistants.

Various other folding down of power, a few heads of departments for various large things like staffers, moderation and what not.

As for the regular forum experience it should be like so:

VOTES ON EVERYTHING NON COSMETICAL
Most (if not all) things should be voted on, from new forums being created to reshuffles and hiring of managers. Nothing should be done behind closed doors, that just makes the users who didn't get a say and wanted one more pissed off.

Criticism:
Users should be allowed to fairly criticise whomsoever they please in public. It's their right to do so and by blocking said right all you do is enrage users and push your own reputations down the crapper (quite rightly, might i add) for ignoring their attempt to voice their opinion publicly.

There are various other small things like user notes and such but they're pretty much non-issues.

So yes, this forum is still a totalitarian dictatorship.

Inseriousity.

08-10-2010, 11:25 PM

Your new management system is pretty much what we've already got.
1 General Manager (Global manager - whole of Habbox)
3 Assistant General Managers (Global manager - site, radio, forum).
1 Department Manager
1 Assistant Department Manager

Seniors ('Head of Department') for the bigger departments like HabboxLive.

The only slight difference is the role of the global managers. It's not site, radio and forum atm but community, content + staff. I think with the system you suggested the workload for each of the global managers wouldn't be as balanced as it is at the minute.

Nixt

09-10-2010, 12:39 AM

I've been looking through the rules and I cannot really find fault with them, it seems that perhaps moderators are looking specifically for rule breaking and thus make the rules seem tighter. It is also possible that the moderator guidelines are poorly worded (Although I could not tell since I am not a moderator) perhaps they could also be revised as well as the rules? It does not appear that the rules are to blame but merely the interpretation of the rules.

Also, if not already, newer members should get off lighter than older members who are more knowledgeable of the rules.
And, if rules are ever changed perhaps a PM to all users may be useful, if I leave the forums for a few months and talking about Jin becomes a bannable offence I would like to be notified since I do like to reference Jin in every post ;).

I think that you may be right there. The problem is not with the rules, which myself and Oli wrote in order to make them easier to understand and clearer and what is / is not against the rules. Rather, the issue is the way in which they are applied or interpreted. I did ask Saurav if I could post his PM down to a T, but he's gone offline so instead I will transfer some of his ideas here and indicate my own opinion on how I feel they should be approached, and see what you guys think!

Regarding the "leaving moderating to the moderators" rule - this seems to be applied too harshly in some situations, for example when someone says "already posted - link here" in Habbo News and Rumours. I think this rule should only be applied where someone interrupts a discussion by say, quoting a rule breaking post and doing the whole "TUT! YOU WERE RUDE TO ANOTHER MEMBER". Posting "oh this has already been posted - xx" is essentially a way of helping members and maybe should not be penalised.

However I do think, if a member were to post "already posted - xx" and someone replies "yeah it's already been posted", the second poster should be approached for pointless posting. What do you guys think?

Regarding the bumping rule, that is being altered slightly on Sunday so as to allow certain threads to be bumped where someone is adding necessary and relevant information and is not doing so pointlessly / unnecessarily. This will be expanded on come Sunday.

The pointless posting rule could also be reviewed (and is being reviewed). The first thing James has looked at is the way in which the "one word" rule is applied and we will be altering this slightly to make it more fair. Essentially we will be stopping people posting threads that can only really justify one word answers rather than targeting people who reply to them.

I think the key problem is actually that some of the forum specific rules have become too draconian, rather than the main body of rules. Notable examples are:

Graphics rule 1 - I hate the way members aren't allowed to say "I really like this, it's awesome +rep!" I feel this rule is far too harsh. Members should be penalised for saying "Good alt" but not for clearly and fairly expressing their appreciation for an alt or graphic. I do think they should be penalised however, if they just say "this is really bad". It's unfair and rude to outrageously criticise without backing that up (some people in feedback should perhaps take note of this point!) but I don't think it's wrong to say you like something, as long as you say it in earnest!

Saurav has also mentioned the advertising rule in the spam forum. Essentially disallowing you from posting such things as "HI I'M DJING ON SOMEHABBORADIO.COM TUNE IN". I don't think it is so much a problem with the rules, rather a problem with the way it is applied. Shameless advertising should be dealt with but not necessarily casual linking.

I do think we have a strong Moderation team but I do think we need to stress the importance of individually evaluating the situation and encouraging an element of independence! I think this is lacking and some Moderators are too strictly following the usernote > warning > infraction process and not taking into account the discretion they are allowed. It is something that we need to look into.

Regarding new members, whenever someone commits their first rule break they are contacted with a friendly PM telling them that it is against the rules to do x, please bear this in mind. A random example of a recently issued warning PM:

Hey,

Just a quick PM to draw your attention to this post: http://www.habboxforum.com/showthrea...98#post6681998 (http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=662087&p=6681998#post6681998), in which you appear to accuse someone of scamming.

Unfortunately even if this is true, it is breaking HabboxForum rules to accuse others of scamming, hacking or any other forum of illegal activity.

Please avoid this in future so that no further action has to be taken.

Thanks

MODERATOR So, it's quite friendly and doesn't seem too harsh. At least, it doesn't seem too harsh to some of the older members who remember the days of hardcore infractions for everything you do wrong, including double posting! I would propose the following change - when a new and unfamiliar member breaks the rules, rather than PMing them with a "You broke this rule" we send them a personal, friendly PM saying something along the lines of:

Hi NEW MEMBER'S NAME,

My name is Nixt and I am a Forum Moderator here at Habbox :-). I noticed you were a relatively new member so just thought I'd pop by and say hi! Also I thought I'd suggest reading the forum rules - just to keep yourself out of trouble when you're here. Note this rule in particular: RULE BROKEN. Keep those in mind and you can't go far wrong!" More of a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" ;) PM rather than the strict formalities. This will only apply to the first ever rule break committed and thereafter the normal process will apply. What do you think? Perhaps I am being too wishy washy here, or perhaps I am not suggesting enough? Opinions welcomed!

Apparently you are unable to read or comprehend simple English, you accept feedback but still maintain a dictatorship. There is no voting on anything that you don't want to have voted on. If you want it you get it, there's no user input, it just happens. A prime example of guess what? A totalitarian dictatorship.

Okay, for a start I can comprehend English very well thank you; there is no point in becoming all condescending when I am clearly perfectly capable of understanding what you are trying to say. If you want Management to pay attention to, and reply to, your feedback, at least try and demonstrate it in a way that doesn't make it sound as if you are lecturing to children. Because that does nothing but piss me off.

Habbox is not a totalitarian dictatorship. Users get a huge amount of input - a significant amount more than they ever did under previous management teams. However, it is not a democracy. It never has been, it never will be. I fail to see how this would make Habbox a better place either. I rarely see any website that runs as a democracy, and I don't see why Habbox should be any different.

The users can't veto things they don't want, they don't get a vote for new features unless management explicitly says "we're not sure, you can decide for us". "BUT THAT'S NOT TOTALITARIAN!" oh wait. it is. It's just you're unwilling to see that at the end of the day that's what's happening.If members don't like something then we will look into changing or removing it. They don't have absolutely veto, no and if one unhappy member out of many came along and said "x is ****, I don't like it" we're certainly not about to change things on the basis of what he says, because we need to try and appeal to the majority audience. However if enough members come together and say, oh actually this is a actually doing us a lot of damage / making us want to leave / need changing - we look into doing that. There are countless examples of this in the past, and as I say the most recent is the situation regarding donations which we are looking into reforming.

Of course there are some situations where we will continue to try something and Management reserve the right to do this (we manage the site after all) but we will always justify this. The members get an awful amount of input into everything that goes on at Habbox - just because you don't normally involve yourself it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'm not going to post an announcement and say "EVERYONE - I'M GOING TO CHANGE THIS - Y / N?" each time I alter rules or policy, such bureaucracy would see the site moving at a snail's pace. But if you think something needs changing, contact those relevant or feed back on it and it will sure as hell happen.

VOTES ON EVERYTHING NON COSMETICAL
Most (if not all) things should be voted on, from new forums being created to reshuffles and hiring of managers. Nothing should be done behind closed doors, that just makes the users who didn't get a say and wanted one more pissed off.Almost every change is made as a result of member feedback. As I said we are not about to hold a vote on every little thing we change. Do you see other sites doing this? Do you see companies doing this (which run in much the same way as us, or any other fansite?) We accept feedback, we make changes based on what the members want, but we're not going to ask for a referendum on whether or not we should change the wording of a rule.

Criticism:
Users should be allowed to fairly criticise whomsoever they please in public. It's their right to do so and by blocking said right all you do is enrage users and push your own reputations down the crapper (quite rightly, might i add) for ignoring their attempt to voice their opinion publicly.You are free to criticise us (what have most people been doing all along this thread) but when people start victimising individuals unfairly it will be dealt with. In the same way if I posted a thread in spam and posted "that Agnostic Bear is such a tiresome bore" it would be dealt with as necessary. Broad criticism is fine, but unfair targeting is not.

So yes, this forum is still a totalitarian dictatorship.VIVA LA REVOLUTION!

Callum.

09-10-2010, 12:49 AM

Not going to lie, after being here 5 years, I think this is a big low point.

Agnostic Bear

09-10-2010, 01:23 AM

Okay, for a start I can comprehend English very well thank you; there is no point in becoming all condescending when I am clearly perfectly capable of understanding what you are trying to say. If you want Management to pay attention to, and reply to, your feedback, at least try and demonstrate it in a way that doesn't make it sound as if you are lecturing to children. Because that does nothing but piss me off.

Then be pissed off. Being pissed off happens, deal with it. It's not hurting you, it's hurting the community.

Habbox is not a totalitarian dictatorship.
Yes it is. Please read the wikipedia article 20 times. If you still feel it's not, please read it 40 times, adding 20 for each time you feel it's still not a totalitarian dictatorship. It is.

Users get a huge amount of input - a significant amount more than they ever did under previous management teams. However, it is not a democracy. It never has been, it never will be. I fail to see how this would make Habbox a better place either. I rarely see any website that runs as a democracy, and I don't see why Habbox should be any different.
So you're willing to just stick it out and watch as the community flails into the ground because the management are nigh on crazy for power and control, ignoring users and pushing the forum to the brink of extinction. Good job you. Democracy would save the forum as it would force the management to give up power and return the forum to a nice place where we can chat and get along, not sit around and hope that we don't get infracted for every little thing.

So go ahead, keep it as a (wait for it) totalitarian dictatorship. See how that works out for you with the current regime of INFRACT FOR EVERYTHING DON'T LET ANYTHING SLIDE PUNISH PEOPLE NOT GIVE THEM FORGIVENESS.

If members don't like something then we will look into changing or removing it.
Only if the powers that be don't mind! If they want to say no BAM it'll not happen (A prime example of what happens in a totalitarian dictatorship!)

They don't have absolutely veto, no and if one unhappy member out of many came along and said "x is ****, I don't like it" we're certainly not about to change things on the basis of what he says, because we need to try and appeal to the majority audience. However if enough members come together and say, oh actually this is a actually doing us a lot of damage / making us want to leave / need changing - we look into doing that. There are countless examples of this in the past, and as I say the most recent is the situation regarding donations which we are looking into reforming.

Nope. You only listen if the popular members (or should i say those with enough backing to cause a ruckus) decide to post. This isn't a jab at those people, they have every right to put their point across, they just shouldn't have a greater levy than those who are less known.

The forum management are in a perpetual state of "will they be a problem if we ignore them? no? ok ignore them."

Of course there are some situations where we will continue to try something and Management reserve the right to do this (we manage the site after all) but we will always justify this.

What's the justification for the Welcome Committee still existing? Seems like a very large time wasting activity that could be better spent acceding the changes needed to stop the community dissent.

The members get an awful amount of input into everything that goes on at Habbox - just because you don't normally involve yourself it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'm not going to post an announcement and say "EVERYONE - I'M GOING TO CHANGE THIS - Y / N?" each time I alter rules or policy, such bureaucracy would see the site moving at a snail's pace. But if you think something needs changing, contact those relevant or feed back on it and it will sure as hell happen.

Such bureaucracy done in the right manner would keep it going at a good pace (albeit slower to make changes to the forum), but what does that matter? The main thing about a forum is content not policies, they should be second place to promoting good, well thought out content.

But then again you're all too busy worrying about getting every little bit of policy right. Why not man up and just say "use your common sense". I do believe a certain government is doing that and it's working wonders.

Almost every change is made as a result of member feedback.
Except those that aren't. Which are a lot of them.

As I said we are not about to hold a vote on every little thing we change. Do you see other sites doing this?
Yes actually! I have voted in a few changes on various forums and such over the years (a few times on 4chan, a few times on Otaku-Studios (I'm an admin there don't you know, and forum activity is ~*skyrocketing*~)

Do you see companies doing this (which run in much the same way as us, or any other fansite?)
2 things:
1) Yes. Microsoft are doing this. They don't make it that obvious but they take in a huge (huge) amount of feedback and it actually gets listened to and implemented. Please see: Windows 7, Internet Explorer 9, Windows Live *.

2) I forgot the second thing because I was busy writing the other bit of the post whilst watching The Breakfast Club.

We accept feedback, we make changes based on what the members want, but we're not going to ask for a referendum on whether or not we should change the wording of a rule.
Congratulations you've totally missed the point. The wording of a rule is just jargon. Changing the meaning of the rule so that it might affect a user differently should be voted on. It'd promote a good distribution of the new rules to the user and like a stack of dominos in space, gently ease rule breaking to a slower, more relaxed pace.

You are free to criticise us (what have most people been doing all along this thread) but when people start victimising individuals unfairly it will be dealt with.
Nope. If one moderator bullies a user or does something hilariously wrong and someone calls them out on it in a fair way, they get in trouble. So unfairly is just "complain about our staff and you're ******, buddy!"

In the same way if I posted a thread in spam and posted "that Agnostic Bear is such a tiresome bore" it would be dealt with as necessary. Broad criticism is fine, but unfair targeting is not.
Now see if you posted a thread "Agnostic Bear's framework is wrong, here are suggestions" and then proceeded to post something about me and my imaginary framework, they'd get rammed so hard up the ass they'd end up on neptune for just mentioning someone else. Double standards.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!
I don't desire revolution in a violent way, I desire a peaceful change to a way where this forum would prosper.

nvrspk4

09-10-2010, 02:46 AM

So I guess I'll start off with the most distressing thing. Why am I a "weird" fantasy? A fantasy, yes, I'll accept (after all, I'm told that I populate the dreams of many HabboxForumers, primarily GommeInc). But "weird"? Really?

Moving on topic, not to dismiss this argument or anything but the:

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'

Card tends to be pulled out every few months. I think that over the years, Habbox management has always been moving forward in this regard. Habbox management has always been getting more and more transparent and responsive, sometimes at quicker rates than others, but always moving forward. It was a huge step for (A)GMs to reply to threads, now it's pretty much a given. The fact that you will always get an (A)GM reply to your threads means that they're obviously listening, and the fact that they're willing to debate shows quite clearly that they are listening to your feedback and evaluating it. They're not necessarily always going to agree with it, but they're definitely listening.

It's also said from time to time that even though they may listen, management shuts down everything. Something I've learned is that a large portion of how you get things to work here is by presenting them right. The ideas that succeed tend to be posted constructively, and backed by concrete examples. When you post in an attack on the staff or the management, not a constructive statement but more of a strong-worded attack, it often forces (A)GMs into a defensive position and makes it very difficult for them to try to meet you halfway, which they absolutely do. I've definitely seen this management team try to do that.

Another thing that happens from time to time is a period of some realignment within Habbox. Sometimes there are big changes, and they tend to happen during management changes, but sometimes they change mid-management. It does happen from time to time, and I can't say if it is appropriate now or not, but the change isn't necessarily a change in management, just a change in policy. And yes that does happen, but this usually isn't how it occurs. Usually it occurs with some positive consensus building, and people coming together over an idea to build it together constructively, instead of fighting at each other.

There have been times that good ideas had to wait several months simply because members made the mistake of taking a good suggestion and making it really destructive criticism and turning the argument personal and individual-based. In one specific example I'm thinking of, the forum manager had to defend the decision as a part of defending himself and his team, and as such was really forced to place himself against suggestions that he probably could have compromised on. Instead, the changes waited until the entire vitriol of the issue died down and it could be brought back up without being reminiscent of the old fight. An entire idea that could have benefited the forum died because people couldn't be mature or suggest it rationally.

As far as what should be done, though I disagree with his ideas (and I'm not going to jump into the debate about his ideas itself because I'm not involved enough to be an informed participant) I do have to commend Agnostic Bear for his posts, primarily his initial posts. He details what it is he finds wrong with the forum, and offers constructive solutions to fix it. On that note though, AB I do think you're getting a little personal with your posts and are making it a little bit of an attack. I think you're definitely on the right track with how to get ideas across, some things to tweak, and personally I disagree with some of your ideas, but I'm also not around enough to give an informed opinion ;)

Just my two cents, more on the nature of effecting change around HxF than what should actually be changed.

-Nick

09-10-2010, 06:56 AM

I agree with u garion

Grig

09-10-2010, 08:03 AM

The problem at the moment is the inability to take risks and try innovation. Whenever someone proposes this, it gets crushed by certain members of general management, I'm not going to play a name and blame game because that'll be unfair. At the moment, Habbox is still working on a similar model of 2007 and it needs to come from the blast from the past with a massive re-vamp starting from the sites and ending with a reform of department and management structure, as there needs to be a move forward into something more compact, like other fansites have. To be fair, other fansites are ahead of the game, ClubHabbo is starting to generate more hits than Habbox and HFFM isn't that far behind. It's time to step up and work on making Habbox the king it once was, it was too much reliance that people thought Habbox would always be this super power fansite, but sadly those fays have vanished and it's time to put that blood, sweat and tears in again like in the past Sierk and co. did.

Robbie

09-10-2010, 09:32 AM

Recursion

09-10-2010, 10:25 AM

I really cba to read all this long posts, in short TL;DR. But I have to agree with the OP and whilst I think we do need changes to be made, you can't really shoot Jamesy for any problems, he's only just taken on the role as Forum Manager, give him a chance. BUT I do think the actual (co-)owner should take a more active role... Jin has done nothing noticable in the past year.

Also, with some of the comments above @ Nixt, look at the Tapatalk idea, it takes no forum resources up to implement it, it is literally 1 line of code and an account signup at tapatalk.com to introduce an addon that would actually get some use out of users for once, and it didn't happen. Ever, why? Jin said no.

This forum is turning towards the crapper if I'm honest.

Martin

09-10-2010, 10:36 AM

I really cba to read all this long posts, in short TL;DR. But I have to agree with the OP and whilst I think we do need changes to be made, you can't really shoot Jamesy for any problems, he's only just taken on the role as Forum Manager, give him a chance.

Agreed with this. I don't think things can suddenly become perfect, it requires time and gradual changes to make things work. James is doing a fantastic job already and has only been in the role a couple of months himself and it does take time for a new manager to assess things and weigh up what needs sorting out etc.

In regard to the rules, I think there are certainly some changes which can be made, and I'm sure they will. There are certain aspects of the rules that are more relaxed these days than they were last year and I think gradually it's getting better with less warnings etc being given out. I think the moderation is quite friendly in many ways, and members are generally treated with respect from what I can see.

I think managers do try and listen to members to an extent and many of the updates on the forum especially have come from suggestions by members. The amount of feedback threads in which have been resolved far outweighs the unanswered complaints.

As far as I see it, the members of the forum should have a certain amount of input into these things, since they're the ones keeping the forum going essentially, however it must also be remembered that managers do put an enormous amount of time into planning things, dealing with their staff and other jobs to improve on quality of the services we offer as a site.

There are plans in place for future things to draw in new members, keep older members satisfied and so forth, however I do agree more effort could perhaps be put in to making these things happen sooner. I think at the moment it's a case of a lot of suggestions/complaints coming at the same time, and naturally it will take a while for everything to get sorted out. The newsletter ideas sound great, and this is something which will tighten the community element, making newer members see us as a happy community. Some of the complaint threads, whilst offering great feedback- can sometimes create an unpleasant atmousphere.

From here I think we just need to really put a lot of effort into ensuring we are continuously working on new developments whilst maintaining a good current standard at the same time. In basic, things need to improve yes, however it can't all be done at once. Feedback like this from members is always very useful in determining what members want to see from the site, and from what I can see- the majority of the time members do get features/ideas they request and we do our best to ensure the sites are up to quality.

At the end of the day, I think managers care about the forum/site as much as everyone else and of course we want things to improve and be at their best too. Managers wouldn't be in their roles if they didn't have this passion, however when taking members feedback into consideration I do agree it should definitely play a part in what decisions are made in terms of new additions and quality of the services we offer.

Recursion

09-10-2010, 10:43 AM

To be honest, here's how I see it. The forum isn't gaining all that many new members, the older members are sticking around (just look at the Tech section, most people there have been around for years) and growing up, but the forum isn't growing at the same rate in terms of rules and morals.

I know this is a Habbo forum but it is one of the best forums I've come across in terms of community spirit, here you can actually build a reputation for yourself.

Chippiewill

13-10-2010, 05:40 PM

It's a bit late, but w/e. PREPARE FOR THE GREAT WALL TEXT OF CHINA!

NIXT / GARION

However I do think, if a member were to post "already posted - xx" and someone replies "yeah it's already been posted", the second poster should be approached for pointless posting. What do you guys think?
Nail on the head, this is the kind of thing which needs fixing pronto. This is an example of something which requires moderator discretion.

Saurav has also mentioned the advertising rule in the spam forum. Essentially disallowing you from posting such things as "HI I'M DJING ON SOMEHABBORADIO.COM TUNE IN". I don't think it is so much a problem with the rules, rather a problem with the way it is applied. Shameless advertising should be dealt with but not necessarily casual linking.
Agreed, "Plugging" something as it were I think is fine but, trying to get people to buy your cooker off cragislist or similar is just eurghgh.

I do think we have a strong Moderation team but I do think we need to stress the importance of individually evaluating the situation and encouraging an element of independence! I think this is lacking and some Moderators are too strictly following the usernote > warning > infraction process and not taking into account the discretion they are allowed. It is something that we need to look into.
Agreed, agreed, agreed, agreed and AGREED. Perhaps moderators should be encouraged somehow to do this.

Hi NEW MEMBER'S NAME,

My name is Nixt and I am a Forum Moderator here at Habbox :-). I noticed you were a relatively new member so just thought I'd pop by and say hi! Also I thought I'd suggest reading the forum rules - just to keep yourself out of trouble when you're here. Note this rule in particular: RULE BROKEN. Keep those in mind and you can't go far wrong!"
This seems a bit wishy washy and might not send the right message but it's certainly on the right track as far as I'm concerned.

Habbox is not a totalitarian dictatorship. Users get a huge amount of input - a significant amount more than they ever did under previous management teams. However, it is not a democracy. It never has been, it never will be. I fail to see how this would make Habbox a better place either. I rarely see any website that runs as a democracy, and I don't see why Habbox should be any different.
The fact is, at the moment Habbox management can change things without user agreement.

I'm not going to post an announcement and say "EVERYONE - I'M GOING TO CHANGE THIS - Y / N?" each time I alter rules or policy, such bureaucracy would see the site moving at a snail's pace. But if you think something needs changing, contact those relevant or feed back on it and it will sure as hell happen.
This would not result in massive delays, you could have a sub-forum, delay each set of Sunday updates by one week (Hardly going to make a difference) and have a poll on everything.

Almost every change is made as a result of member feedback. As I said we are not about to hold a vote on every little thing we change. Do you see other sites doing this? Do you see companies doing this (which run in much the same way as us, or any other fansite?) We accept feedback, we make changes based on what the members want, but we're not going to ask for a referendum on whether or not we should change the wording of a rule.
It would not be a referendum, it would allow people to give a yes/no answer without breaking rules and without wasting time. It is a quick and easy way to get the opinion of the general forum population.

You are free to criticise us (what have most people been doing all along this thread) but when people start victimising individuals unfairly it will be dealt with. In the same way if I posted a thread in spam and posted "that Agnostic Bear is such a tiresome bore" it would be dealt with as necessary. Broad criticism is fine, but unfair targeting is not.
Agreed, JB here is just trolling for arguments sake, targeting users is unfair.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!
Glad you agree!

Callum.

Not going to lie, after being here 5 years, I think this is a big low point.
Low points must be considered as a chance to change for good or to let the process go on. I'd prefer the first.

JB

Only if the powers that be don't mind! If they want to say no BAM it'll not happen (A prime example of what happens in a totalitarian dictatorship!)
This is the problem we have at the moment, as long as management agree it's fine, as soon management disagree they'll close the thread and squash the idea, regardless of public opinion.

Nope. You only listen if the popular members (or should i say those with enough backing to cause a ruckus) decide to post. This isn't a jab at those people, they have every right to put their point across, they just shouldn't have a greater levy than those who are less known.

The forum management are in a perpetual state of "will they be a problem if we ignore them? no? ok ignore them."
Agreed, a Veto, if people are made aware of, would provide a fair and representative opinion and would prevent the popular users from pushing their idea through the system.

Except those that aren't. Which are a lot of them.
And mostly bad ones..

Yes actually! I have voted in a few changes on various forums and such over the years (a few times on 4chan, a few times on Otaku-Studios (I'm an admin there don't you know, and forum activity is ~*skyrocketing*~)

tsk tsk, what are you like!

1) Yes. Microsoft are doing this. They don't make it that obvious but they take in a huge (huge) amount of feedback and it actually gets listened to and implemented. Please see: Windows 7, Internet Explorer 9, Windows Live *.
Clearly Garion hasn't seen those Win7 adverts, "Windows 7 was my idea"

I don't desire revolution in a violent way, I desire a peaceful change to a way where this forum would prosper.
Gario does have a point here, you are a tiresome bore :P

nvrspk4

Card tends to be pulled out every few months. I think that over the years, Habbox management has always been moving forward in this regard. Habbox management has always been getting more and more transparent and responsive, sometimes at quicker rates than others, but always moving forward. It was a huge step for GMs to reply to threads, now it's pretty much a given. The fact that you will always get an GM reply to your threads means that they're obviously listening, and the fact that they're willing to debate shows quite clearly that they are listening to your feedback and evaluating it. They're not necessarily always going to agree with it, but they're definitely listening.
It would be nicer if they followed your method of letting it play out first, I find that the newer users will follow the weight of staff quite quickly if they're not sure.

It's also said from time to time that even though they may listen, management shuts down everything. Something I've learned is that a large portion of how you get things to work here is by presenting them right. The ideas that succeed tend to be posted constructively, and backed by concrete examples. When you post in an attack on the staff or the management, not a constructive statement but more of a strong-worded attack, it often forces GMs into a defensive position and makes it very difficult for them to try to meet you halfway, which they absolutely do. I've definitely seen this management team try to do that.
hurhurhur, refer to my other thread.

There have been times that good ideas had to wait several months simply because members made the mistake of taking a good suggestion and making it really destructive criticism and turning the argument personal and individual-based. In one specific example I'm thinking of, the forum manager had to defend the decision as a part of defending himself and his team, and as such was really forced to place himself against suggestions that he probably could have compromised on. Instead, the changes waited until the entire vitriol of the issue died down and it could be brought back up without being reminiscent of the old fight. An entire idea that could have benefited the forum died because people couldn't be mature or suggest it rationally.
In those occurrences the thread should be closed and the idea should be brought forth again without all the bad bits. Infact, this is what this whole thread is, taking an old thread and reposting it to remove the fight, I didn't have to wait six months before reconsidering it.

As far as what should be done, though I disagree with his ideas (and I'm not going to jump into the debate about his ideas itself because I'm not involved enough to be an informed participant) I do have to commend Agnostic Bear for his posts, primarily his initial posts. He details what it is he finds wrong with the forum, and offers constructive solutions to fix it. On that note though, AB I do think you're getting a little personal with your posts and are making it a little bit of an attack. I think you're definitely on the right track with how to get ideas across, some things to tweak, and personally I disagree with some of your ideas, but I'm also not around enough to give an informed opinion.
That is the curse of the feedback forum, if someone disagrees it is viewed as a personal attack rather than an opinion.

Just my two cents, more on the nature of effecting change around HxF than what should actually be changed.
Which is what we require in these dark dark times. (Perhaps a little dramatic)

So I guess I'll start off with the most distressing thing. Why am I a "weird" fantasy? A fantasy, yes, I'll accept (after all, I'm told that I populate the dreams of many HabboxForumers, primarily GommeInc). But "weird"? Really?
Most people say Mad (I think) but he was before my time and you always have good responses in feedback.

=345

I agree with u garion
This actually proves my earlier point that newer users will side with staff automatically (Although it may be his own opinion).

Grig

The problem at the moment is the inability to take risks and try innovation. Whenever someone proposes this, it gets crushed by certain members of general management.
Exactly, as previously stated, perhaps management should let threads develop in order to see progress etc.

At the moment, Habbox is still working on a similar model of 2007 and it needs to come from the blast from the past with a massive re-vamp starting from the sites and ending with a reform of department and management structure, as there needs to be a move forward into something more compact, like other fansites have.

Mass reform is not the point, however reform in 'problem' points is. The main site is dead, it needs new content writers and not just people writing guides. Mini games would work, Habbo Space Invaders anyone?

It's time to step up and work on making Habbox the king it once was, it was too much reliance that people thought Habbox would always be this super power fansite, but sadly those fays have vanished and it's time to put that blood, sweat and tears in again like in the past Sierk and co. did.
God save our Habbox!

Robbie
Original:

Insert generic comment about "v6" here
New:

It's ready when it's ready.

Recursion

I really cba to read all this long posts, in short TL;DR. But I have to agree with the OP and whilst I think we do need changes to be made, you can't really shoot Jamesy for any problems, he's only just taken on the role as Forum Manager, give him a chance. BUT I do think the actual (co-)owner should take a more active role... Jin has done nothing noticable in the past year.
Jin will be Jin. But I'm not really targeting Jamesy, more past management policy which I hope he doesn't aspire to.

Also, with some of the comments above @ Nixt, look at the Tapatalk idea, it takes no forum resources up to implement it, it is literally 1 line of code and an account signup at tapatalk.com to introduce an addon that would actually get some use out of users for once, and it didn't happen. Ever, why? Jin said no.
Jin will be Jin.

Also "TL;DR" is a terrible thing, it basically lets people off of making the same point people already have

This forum is turning towards the crapper if I'm honest.
Habbox will be Habbox.

Bolt660

Agreed with this. I don't think things can suddenly become perfect, it requires time and gradual changes to make things work. James is doing a fantastic job already and has only been in the role a couple of months himself and it does take time for a new manager to assess things and weigh up what needs sorting out etc.
Management changes hands so fast these days.

In regard to the rules, I think there are certainly some changes which can be made, and I'm sure they will. There are certain aspects of the rules that are more relaxed these days than they were last year and I think gradually it's getting better with less warnings etc being given out. I think the moderation is quite friendly in many ways, and members are generally treated with respect from what I can see.
Think of this thread as a catalyst for change, if I didn't make it, nothing would happen.

I think managers do try and listen to members to an extent and many of the updates on the forum especially have come from suggestions by members. The amount of feedback threads in which have been resolved far outweighs the unanswered complaints.
Except those that they hide.

As far as I see it, the members of the forum should have a certain amount of input into these things, since they're the ones keeping the forum going essentially, however it must also be remembered that managers do put an enormous amount of time into planning things, dealing with their staff and other jobs to improve on quality of the services we offer as a site.
The popular and involved members do, we need to get the entire community aware of these things.

There are plans in place for future things to draw in new members, keep older members satisfied and so forth, however I do agree more effort could perhaps be put in to making these things happen sooner.
Habbox needs to let go of its older members, you cannot please all parties. It is its heritage but it'll also be its downfall.

Some of the complaint threads, whilst offering great feedback- can sometimes create an unpleasant atmousphere.
Don't read threads if you don't like them.

From here I think we just need to really put a lot of effort into ensuring we are continuously working on new developments whilst maintaining a good current standard at the same time. In basic, things need to improve yes, however it can't all be done at once. Feedback like this from members is always very useful in determining what members want to see from the site, and from what I can see- the majority of the time members do get features/ideas they request and we do our best to ensure the sites are up to quality.
Progress is occurring, yes, this thread serves as making sure it continues and to bring forth proposals

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