Habbox/HabboxLive/HabboxForum access for Site Coders

[Pyroka]

This has been on my mind for a while, what with the new developments for Halloween skin, the whole V6 scandal (because it's not really coming is it, come on) & like how HabboxLive is unnecessarily it's own site, so here it is.

Why the hell do Site Coders only have access to one directory (www.habbox.com/scripts (http://www.habbox.com/scripts)) when essentially it would be more productive for them to have access to the forum & habboxlive sites as well?

I mean I can see from a security point of view it may be frowned upon, but if you think about it, all of Habbox's sites are hosted on the one server (correct me if I'm wrong), so if you just uploaded a simple script that anyone could write up if they knew how, then that would take the whole server down from one little directory. So that whole shebang about "too risky" is pretty crap.

It would make more sense to give them more access, they do a good job and giving them access to more means more gets done over the three sites. Plus they can help Jamesy out with glitches & server problems, theyre all technical people so let them bloody help!

Discuss.

[Blob]

Agreed so much.

[Robbie]

I believe me and Ryan (Blob not Pyroka) did mention something like this to General Management a while ago but we were told quite simply "no" unfortunately. :(

[immense]

isnt blob like rly high up on ch

cant be trusted ;l

[Pyroka]

isnt blob like rly high up on ch

cant be trusted ;l

He's already got access to the "top secret (lol jk never happened)" V6 project so that seems a bit silly sayin that. If that was the case he'd have been booted off the team ages ago, simply because right now it's a security risk, giving him more access wouldn't increase the security risk either.

[GoldenMerc]

agreeeeee

[xxMATTGxx]

If they ever need access to certain parts of the website then they are entitled to have access to them. We ty and lower the amount of people who have access to certain parts of the website encase anything does happen or someone decides to do a "**** it, let's just delete it all". Although, I've just noticed something while looking into Cpanel so either way any changes to FTP accounts can't even be made at the moment.

[Blob]

isnt blob like rly high up on ch

cant be trusted ;l

Yes, and I have more access there (I've been there about a week and something) than I have in being here for 10 months. My status on CH has nothing to do with whether or not I am a security risk to HxF. Wouldn't I have leaked v6 plans if I was?

[Pyroka]

OK The way I thought it worked was that Habbox Site Coders were pretty much like a helpdesk for any department to contact, yknwo like the GFX department, if you want something made then you go chat to them and they sort it for you.

But evidentally this is not the case, which is really a pile of **** way to do it.

[Jamesy]

Site coders are more than welcome to access the test forum if they are requiring anything like that, as I believe I posted in their forum once before. I don't believe they should be granted access to the live forum as development work should not be carried out on a live forum.

Although as matt's pointed out, our cPanel has gone funky :(

[xxMATTGxx]

OK The way I thought it worked was that Habbox Site Coders were pretty much like a helpdesk for any department to contact, yknwo like the GFX department, if you want something made then you go chat to them and they sort it for you.

But evidentally this is not the case, which is really a pile of **** way to do it.

Departments are allowed to request for stuff to be made which then gets passed onto the site coders, if they need any "access" to parts of the site because of it. For example: Habboxlive then they get access to that while the work is being carried out.

[Alkaz]

OK The way I thought it worked was that Habbox Site Coders were pretty much like a helpdesk for any department to contact, yknwo like the GFX department, if you want something made then you go chat to them and they sort it for you.

But evidentally this is not the case, which is really a pile of **** way to do it.
Compared to six months ago, site coders have literally 100% more power than they did back then. A lot of work has been done and what you said has been the case for a while now. Department managers can request site coders to do anything for them to do as long as it is needed for their department. The whole ''v6 scandal'' is right now, their main focus to get completed. Everyone thinks it will never materialise which is why we're trying to get it completed as soon as possible. In another thread the other day, it was mentioned that HabboxLive may me merged with the main site. Not only that, we've been working so that it will be easier in general for people to maintain and update the site in general, this includes permissions as well for site coders so that they become a much more valuable resource for Habbox. So currently, the permissions they have isn't a concern as we hope it will be different with v6 - which if we stop bombarding them with work to do will hopefully be completed sooner, rather than later.

[Pyroka]

Site coders are more than welcome to access the test forum if they are requiring anything like that, as I believe I posted in their forum once before. I don't believe they should be granted access to the live forum as development work should not be carried out on a live forum.

Although as matt's pointed out, our cPanel has gone funky :(

Wouldn't it make sense to give like... idk, how about giving one of them access to the live forum to help on bugs? And is the test forum like an exact duplicate of the live forum? I'm not 100% on the whole thing, I've never even heard of the test forum before haha.

[GoldenMerc]

Test forum is where they test things, such as new skins, new plugins etc.

[Blob]

Take this how you want to take it but this is as at least two out of the three site coders at the moment -

We code. Lots. But for what? One thing is recognition. We get little or no recognition for the work that we do (oh I've been put in an announcement.. twice I think? And that is after 10 months). I haven't even seen Robbie featured in one at all. No thanks - for the work we do other, if done on other fansites you would get a thread dedicated to thanking you or talking about how awesome the new feature is or how to improve it. But no, not here, the only thread you get is in the Congratulations thread where someone just posts a thread for every single new member of staff and people who reply do actually mean it and the others are just a "oh well done" or something.

We are locked down to one directory, http://www.habbox.com/scripts. Before that, an even smaller directory for the main rare values panel, http://www.habbox.com/scripts/rv. We aren't 10. We know what we are doing. If we get FTP to the Habbox public_html we aren't going to think "oh what is index.php I wonder what will happen if I suddenly type fladspofk0dsfjajea9r3'';'af in it". We aren't trusted at all which leads to problems. I needed to fix the new rare values tooltip script up so it didn't conflict with MooTools, but the other pages needed MooTools to function - I was given FTP to two directories to fix the problem. Which is pointless - if we need FTP access to a place and you are willing to give it to us - why not give us full access? That leads on to another thing.

You are wrong when it comes to department managers talking to us - they must talk to Alkaz first who sets it as a task (possible delay here) then we have to wait for someone to actually notice it over the Content Designers stuff we see for no real reason as we are not content designers (possible delay here). At all. We have our own subforum in Content Designers - why not on the index? If the coder needs some extra access or information, they have to ask someone else (possible delay here), where as if we had full access and department managers talked straight to us and we record what we do - no delays.

The reason why I also code for CH is because it is much nicer there. I am trusted with more access in a week than 10 months at Habbox. You get recognition there and the feel of actually doing something that the community want is great as you only have to talk to Ryan to get the go ahead and he is actually involved with the site, then you are left to your own accord. It is a complete contrast to Habbox - Habbox is too business like in the way it operates. Habbos are no longer looking for the professional fansite (to some extent) - they want to be closer to a welcoming community that is actually with the times of Habbo where it is more friendlier and relaxed - a complete contrast to Habbox, which is why Habbox is dying.

With our access to Habbox, we could delete the whole directory we have now and the site wouldn't function greatly. No "goodies" (even though they are miles out of date) - no rare values, and I'm sorry to say Dan and Dan, and as much as I love you both, is un-necessary and is just a pointless page. So what is the difference if we have full FTP? Nothing.

Take offense by that if you wish, call me selfish or whatever. But that is, the shock reality. Get with it.

I could go on about management n tings. I'll leave it for another post.

/rant

[Robbie]

Take this how you want to take it but this is as at least two out of the three site coders at the moment -

We code. Lots. But for what? One thing is recognition. We get little or no recognition for the work that we do (oh I've been put in an announcement.. twice I think? And that is after 10 months). I haven't even seen Robbie featured in one at all. No thanks - for the work we do other, if done on other fansites you would get a thread dedicated to thanking you or talking about how awesome the new feature is or how to improve it. But no, not here, the only thread you get is in the Congratulations thread where someone just posts a thread for every single new member of staff and people who reply do actually mean it and the others are just a "oh well done" or something.

We are locked down to one directory, http://www.habbox.com/scripts. Before that, an even smaller directory for the main rare values panel, http://www.habbox.com/scripts/rv. We aren't 10. We know what we are doing. If we get FTP to the Habbox public_html we aren't going to think "oh what is index.php I wonder what will happen if I suddenly type fladspofk0dsfjajea9r3'';'af in it". We aren't trusted at all which leads to problems. I needed to fix the new rare values tooltip script up so it didn't conflict with MooTools, but the other pages needed MooTools to function - I was given FTP to two directories to fix the problem. Which is pointless - if we need FTP access to a place and you are willing to give it to us - why not give us full access? That leads on to another thing.

You are wrong when it comes to department managers talking to us - they must talk to Alkaz first who sets it as a task (possible delay here) then we have to wait for someone to actually notice it over the Content Designers stuff we see for no real reason as we are not content designers (possible delay here). At all. We have our own subforum in Content Designers - why not on the index? If the coder needs some extra access or information, they have to ask someone else (possible delay here), where as if we had full access and department managers talked straight to us and we record what we do - no delays.

The reason why I also code for CH is because it is much nicer there. I am trusted with more access in a week than 10 months at Habbox. You get recognition there and the feel of actually doing something that the community want is great as you only have to talk to Ryan to get the go ahead and he is actually involved with the site, then you are left to your own accord. It is a complete contrast to Habbox - Habbox is too business like in the way it operates. Habbos are no longer looking for the professional fansite (to some extent) - they want to be closer to a welcoming community that is actually with the times of Habbo where it is more friendlier and relaxed - a complete contrast to Habbox, which is why Habbox is dying.

With our access to Habbox, we could delete the whole directory we have now and the site wouldn't function greatly. No "goodies" (even though they are miles out of date) - no rare values, and I'm sorry to say Dan and Dan, and as much as I love you both, is un-necessary and is just a pointless page. So what is the difference if we have full FTP? Nothing.

Take offense by that if you wish, call me selfish or whatever. But that is, the shock reality. Get with it.

I could go on about management n tings. I'll leave it for another post.

/rant

I have to agree on the recognition part. All the little (and big) things we do aren't really recongised by General Management (with the exception of Alkaz - who always thanks me a lot) but there's never any public thanks. People need to realise we do this for free in our own time, a little recognition every now and then wouldn't go amiss.

I was asked to code a full script by another member on this forum for quite a nice amount of money, but I turned it down. Why? Because I was busy coding something for Habbox at the time and wanted to remain dedicated. However it is becoming increasingly difficult as a coder to get things done. We're cast aside by management as like, not really staff, until they want something done. The amount of communication going on with regard to v6 is quite frankly worrying for me - and I wouldn't believe the hype - not much has been done to my knowledge (which isn't a lot because theres no comms)

Of course, Alkaz is great and he recognises everything I do and is real nice, but, the others, well...

[immense]

should both be fired tbh. public betrayal :l

[Blob]

should both be fired tbh. public betrayal :l

I'd more than happily be fired, as it would show staff members not being allowed to voice an opinion.

[Recursion]

should both be fired tbh. public betrayal :l

oh noez11!!1!11

[immense]

Being serious though, I respect you both do fabulous work for Habbox and really help on the technical side and kudos for that but could you not have PM'd your frustrations to Matt / Jin or posted them in the staff forums? I just think it looks bad on Habbox they way you have aired your dirty laundry in public! Maybe, I'm old fashioned. Not sure.

[Recursion]

Being serious though, I respect you both do fabulous work for Habbox and really help on the technical side and kudos for that but could you not have PM'd your frustrations to Matt / Jin or posted them in the staff forums? I just think it looks bad on Habbox they way you have aired your dirty laundry in public! Maybe, I'm old fashioned. Not sure.

LOL. You must be joking.

[Nixt]

I still think it would make more sense to have a coding team as a separate entity managed by someone with the knowledge of coding. No offence to Alkaz but he doesn't, and it doesn't make sense to restrict a team with a hell of a lot of potential in that way, it would also mean speeding up the process of V6 because it would be led by a manager with the knowledge of what needs doing and how it is going to happen.

Oh and @ Jake, when I was AGM I know Ryan regularly voiced pretty much these exact opinions in discussions and meetings to the extent that we wanted to shove a sock in his mouth, but he's got a point.

[Pyroka]

Being serious though, I respect you both do fabulous work for Habbox and really help on the technical side and kudos for that but could you not have PM'd your frustrations to Matt / Jin or posted them in the staff forums? I just think it looks bad on Habbox they way you have aired your dirty laundry in public! Maybe, I'm old fashioned. Not sure.

Might be jumping the gun here, but I bet they have done already & got ignored. not like that'd be a first.

[immense]

LOL. You must be joking.
Nope. Deadly serious.

[Robbie]

Being serious though, I respect you both do fabulous work for Habbox and really help on the technical side and kudos for that but could you not have PM'd your frustrations to Matt / Jin or posted them in the staff forums? I just think it looks bad on Habbox they way you have aired your dirty laundry in public! Maybe, I'm old fashioned. Not sure.

Did do once before but nothing happened.

[Blob]

Being serious though, I respect you both do fabulous work for Habbox and really help on the technical side and kudos for that but could you not have PM'd your frustrations to Matt / Jin or posted them in the staff forums? I just think it looks bad on Habbox they way you have aired your dirty laundry in public! Maybe, I'm old fashioned. Not sure.

Tried it. Ignored.

[Pyroka]

Might be jumping the gun here, but I bet they have done already & got ignored. not like that'd be a first.


Tried it. Ignored.

give me a ******* medal please

[Recursion]

And people question the lack of communication and seriousness of issues like these? :rolleyes:

[Nixt]

give me a ******* medal please


Oh and @ Jake, when I was AGM I know Ryan regularly voiced pretty much these exact opinions in discussions and meetings to the extent that we wanted to shove a sock in his mouth, but he's got a point.

I got there first!!

It's been mentioned time and time again. In fairness I was guilty of not giving them enough praise myself. But I personally think the main problem is that they are shunned aside in the middle of Habbox nowhere with no proper direction or management and people just assume they don't do much at all. Which is completely wrong.

[immense]

Also - I don't see every rare value reporter needing to be told they've done an excellent job after they send a report in or whatever and that's how it should be. You applied for / accepted the job and I'm sure everything you've done has been met with a 'thanks' at least. Do charity workers expect to be thanked for helping out? No. I know when I was staff I wanted to help Habbox (I still do as a member as I'm not allowed to be staff) it wasn't a case of being recognised for what I did it was about doing the job I worked hard to get and doing it well. I think the same principals should apply.

[Nixt]

Also - I don't see every rare value reporter needing to be told they've done an excellent job after they send a report in or whatever and that's how it should be. You applied for / accepted the job and I'm sure everything you've done has been met with a 'thanks' at least. Do charity workers expect to be thanked for helping out? No. I know when I was staff I wanted to help Habbox (I still do as a member as I'm not allowed to be staff) it wasn't a case of being recognised for what I did it was about doing the job I worked hard to get and doing it well. I think the same principals should apply.

The difference is that Rare Values Reporters get weekly reports, as do other members of staff (or monthly) and get praised for their work. They get staff of the month, and some VIP. They have a manager who knows the exact details of their work and is able to recognise hard work when they see it. Of course they're doing it for the love of Habbox, but it's not even that they don't get praise, they're not really recognised at all when they actually have one of the most pivotal jobs at Habbox (ensuring the new site is coded... interactive content is to a high standard, etc). When you were at Habbox, you got public exposure, and other people do too. Praise isn't the be all and end all, but for them it's a whole different scenario that means it does seem they are ultimately ignored. The coding team just need more structure, so they're recognised as members of staff rather than people to be called upon when a manager is too lazy to manually update a timetable or something.

JUST IMHO DON'T FLAME

[Chippiewill]

If a coder has access to one directory on the server then, unless there's some tight security,they can fiddle with the rest of the server directories.

[Jamesy]

I do agree that the site coders aren't really part of the content department, they should really be given their own space and recognition.

[Recursion]

inb4 too many forums and staff

[myke]

Yes, and I have more access there (I've been there about a week and something) than I have in being here for 10 months. My status on CH has nothing to do with whether or not I am a security risk to HxF. Wouldn't I have leaked v6 plans if I was?

you've always been pro 'feeling more in control' so yanno

not sure what to think of this, i dont see anything wrong with the way it works atm??



I do agree that the site coders aren't really part of the content department, they should really be given their own space and recognition.

the word there underlined explains everything

[Nixt]

I do agree that the site coders aren't really part of the content department, they should really be given their own space and recognition.

I think:

Get rid of AGM (Content) and promote someone to Site Manager. Someone with a knowledge of coding and the ability to manage a team with similar knowledge. The Site Manager, along with his team of coders, can then ensure the site is up to date and well maintained with full access to the site etc etc.

The content team itself is obsolete and will become more so after V6. Give Management access to edit different areas of the site so they can ensure that things regarding their departments are kept up to date and the Site Manager can tweak content every now and then.

That way the coders actually have direction and will be recognised as members of a department. You are also getting rid of pointless roles and making sure the new Habbox site is actually created!

------

This is only like a broad idea, would need proper implementation etc.

[mr.tom]

"Stop snooping in the scripts directory please!"

how do i get on

also vouch for blob he's really good on ch

[Robbie]

I think:

Get rid of AGM (Content) and promote someone to Site Manager. Someone with a knowledge of coding and the ability to manage a team with similar knowledge. The Site Manager, along with his team of coders, can then ensure the site is up to date and well maintained with full access to the site etc etc.

The content team itself is obsolete and will become more so after V6. Give Management access to edit different areas of the site so they can ensure that things regarding their departments are kept up to date and the Site Manager can tweak content every now and then.

That way the coders actually have direction and will be recognised as members of a department. You are also getting rid of pointless roles and making sure the new Habbox site is actually created!

------

This is only like a broad idea, would need proper implementation etc.

I agree, mentioned this a while back I think.

[myke]

Take this how you want to take it but this is as at least two out of the three site coders at the moment -

We code. Lots. But for what? One thing is recognition. We get little or no recognition for the work that we do (oh I've been put in an announcement.. twice I think? And that is after 10 months). I haven't even seen Robbie featured in one at all. No thanks - for the work we do other, if done on other fansites you would get a thread dedicated to thanking you or talking about how awesome the new feature is or how to improve it. But no, not here, the only thread you get is in the Congratulations thread where someone just posts a thread for every single new member of staff and people who reply do actually mean it and the others are just a "oh well done" or something.

The reason why I also code for CH is because it is much nicer there. I am trusted with more access in a week than 10 months at Habbox. You get recognition there and the feel of actually doing something that the community want is great as you only have to talk to Ryan to get the go ahead and he is actually involved with the site, then you are left to your own accord. It is a complete contrast to Habbox - Habbox is too business like in the way it operates. Habbos are no longer looking for the professional fansite (to some extent) - they want to be closer to a welcoming community that is actually with the times of Habbo where it is more friendlier and relaxed - a complete contrast to Habbox, which is why Habbox is dying.

With our access to Habbox, we could delete the whole directory we have now and the site wouldn't function greatly. No "goodies" (even though they are miles out of date) - no rare values, and I'm sorry to say Dan and Dan, and as much as I love you both, is un-necessary and is just a pointless page. So what is the difference if we have full FTP? Nothing.

Take offense by that if you wish, call me selfish or whatever. But that is, the shock reality. Get with it.

/rant

my graphic designers make plenty of graphics, yes i understand coding may take more time but by the time they've made 5 graphics and had to make changes and repost them, it's probably the equivalent of you making one page (if you are as competent as you post like you are), do they post complaining they don't get recognition? nope. they don't get recognition, i'll post in the thread saying 'thanks so and so i like it' or w.e. i dont post announcements for them ',JESS, HAS JUST MADE THIS GRAPHIC - +REP HER' - I know that recognition is nice, and pleasant; everybody likes some sometime, and you get some sometimes. the fact of it is that you shouldnt do it for the recognition, you should do it for the enjoyment. if you don't enjoy it here, then you've just said clubhabbos better, bye ryan? you don't get praise and pats on the head in work, nor school nor anywhere in life, you get it very rarely and that's what makes praise special and pleasant, aye people do things and it's nice to be recognised and thanked or congratulated, it doesn't happen all the time (in your own words) 'get with it.'

you're posting how much you hate habbox and how poor the management and access and stuff is, why are you still coding then? why don't you PM people and explain your concerns, i know that with alkaz being my GM i can take things to him if they're not working, i can discuss them and on the majority of times, things are fixed (although sometimes are out of his control).

This whole issue has just been blown out of the water and needs to be put back down to size, in the most harsh and blunt way possible, there's bigger things for people to "worry" about rather than the amount of access you have to a website - you've been doing your jobs fine so far using the scripts directory?

yh you probably wont like what i've just said but if i have an opinion i'll post it..

[Blob]

Ah I see Myke, you still have a problem with me after I suggested HxL and Hx merge.


my graphic designers make plenty of graphics, yes i understand coding may take more time but by the time they've made 5 graphics and had to make changes and repost them, it's probably the equivalent of you making one page (if you are as competent as you post like you are), do they post complaining they don't get recognition? nope. they don't get recognition, i'll post in the thread saying 'thanks so and so i like it' or w.e. i dont post announcements for them ',JESS, HAS JUST MADE THIS GRAPHIC - +REP HER' - I know that recognition is nice, and pleasant; everybody likes some sometime, and you get some sometimes. the fact of it is that you shouldnt do it for the recognition, you should do it for the enjoyment.

Enjoying something is hard when you get no recognition for it. They get no recognition, yes, and they have every right to ask for it in a feedback thread when it comes up or they can make it themselves. Just because your graphic designers don't get recognition doesn't mean my opinion is invalid.


if you don't enjoy it here, then you've just said clubhabbos better, bye ryan?

I'm only here as I don't want to see Habbox v6 fail and I like some of the management team, they are a great laugh.


you don't get praise and pats on the head in work, nor school nor anywhere in life, you get it very rarely and that's what makes praise special and pleasant, aye people do things and it's nice to be recognised and thanked or congratulated, it doesn't happen all the time (in your own words) 'get with it.'

Yes you do, it depends on how your school goes about things.


you're posting how much you hate habbox and how poor the management and access and stuff is, why are you still coding then? why don't you PM people and explain your concerns, i know that with alkaz being my GM i can take things to him if they're not working, i can discuss them and on the majority of times, things are fixed (although sometimes are out of his control).

Read the thread. You will see that we have tried with PMs to General Management and Jin.


This whole issue has just been blown out of the water and needs to be put back down to size, in the most harsh and blunt way possible, there's bigger things for people to "worry" about rather than the amount of access you have to a website - you've been doing your jobs fine so far using the scripts directory?

Wheres v6 then?


yh you probably wont like what i've just said but if i have an opinion i'll post it..

You have every right to post an opinion.

[Jin]

K thread closed because most of the things said here are worthy of the extra chromosome award "/

So allow me to correct you:


Correction number 1 - Just because you have access to one folder does mean you can access everything or take down a whole server - A properly configured server won't allow anyone to stray out of their directory and it will terminate any script that is trying to run away with resources. Why is this? Oh because of something called shared hosting where 1000's of separate users run on the same machine so if one **** decides to try and run a script to take down the whole server why should they be able to do so and take down the other 999 customers?
Correction number 2 - Just because they can program doesn't mean they need access to the entire site directory - So just because I am a programmer I should have the right to access every single file on the site? Despite the fact that the applications I work on don't even concern the files in the other directories? It only takes one rogue line of code to really screw things up for people, for example vBulletin. By including 2 lines of code into the login.php file I can create a condition where everytime someone logins succesfully their username and plaintext password is written to a .txt file or even emailed to a private email account.

Not only does that compromise the security of admins of the forum but also the users because I wonder how many people on this forum use the same password for habboxforum and something else such as their email address or habbo account. As soon as you have compromised someones email account you can get hold of every little detail about them including paypal accounts, home address, mobile numbers, home numbers, photos, schools etc.

The worst part is it would be that the changes would be undetectable without having to create a script to compare the checksum of each file on a daily basis to check for modification.
Correction number 3 - One rogue site coder will mean that we have no idea who to blame or fire or what to restore - Even if one person compromises habbox.com we wouldnt be able to track what was changed so that would mean we would have to restore the whole of an entire site to what it was the day before. If they had access to all 3 sites then we would have to restore all 3 sites as who knows what they have done to the other sites such as opening a backdoor or uploading a shell. By limiting them down to directories we reduce our workload in case of a problem unfortunatly some powermad children are a bit too stupid to realise this.
Correction number 4 - You seriously need to be a moron to give out access to areas which are not needed - Computer Security 101, limit access to what is neccessary. Nobody apart from the person who needs to update the software or configuration file needs root access. Jamesy has it to the forum, Oli has it to all cpanels, Matt has access to the account root and me, sierk and the other server techs have access to the server root.



Correction number 5 - Members do not have the right to dictate what permissions or access we give out - Sorry but this is a certain area where we are FAR more experienced than you and don't care for your opinion because we are acting out of what we have learnt from in the past right from the >Max< ordeal, through the krews.net issues to what we have today. If you don't like it, tough because frankly you don't pay the bills.

This may sound harsh to you but it is simply because I am sick and tired of listening to crap from half wits that think they know what they are talking about when they really don't especially when they are so adament to give their 2 cents on matters that don't concern them because they somehow think they are entitled to patronize us on every matter of how we do things here. If you don't like this then thats fine but you will have to live with it because I am not shedding tears for the ungrateful or as I see them the pointless.