10.11.10 - Demolition.

[MrPinkPanther]

So the big protest against the Tuition fee rise and cuts to the University budget is coming up tomorrow, just wondering who's coming up to London?

It starts at 11.30, I'm gonna roll out of bed at around 11.15 and go :D. Woop woop!

[Conservative,]

I'm not and I wouldn't. I think it's moronic - people have to understand spending cuts need to be made, and prices have to rise. And the tuition fees will only go up if the University agrees to give discounts to poorer families, so tbh, it's not a big issue.

[MrPinkPanther]

I'm not and I wouldn't. I think it's moronic - people have to understand spending cuts need to be made, and prices have to rise. And the tuition fees will only go up if the University agrees to give discounts to poorer families, so tbh, it's not a big issue.

Well firstly the rise to £9,000 will result in the marketisation of Education. Look at the world university rankings, how many in the top 25 are British, a hell of a lot. Its because we have one of the best higher education systems in the world. To put it simply its because undergraduates go to universities based on the suitability of the course and not because of the attached price tag. Had my course been £9000 a year then would I be here? Absolutely not. Sure the government says they will help poorer students but it is impossible to judge someones wealth and actually if it's based on the current system then it is highly flawed. The current system is based on parental income from 2 years previous, firstly as the recession has shown the economy can take a turn for the worse extremely quickly completely changing peoples financial situations and secondly it is based on the assumption that parents are willing to pay for their children.

People say why should other people have to pay for our degree and thats a valid point but thats exactly what progressive income taxation is for. If someone earns a lot then they pay back a lot, by the governments own admission graduates tend to earn over £100,000 more than those who do not attend university. From the governments perspective university would pay for itself several times over because of this anyway. Why should we penalise those who attended University and rather than taking a high paid job are taking a fairly middle income job and are instead opting to help contribute to society. Take my Sister for example, she graduated from Oxford university and yet after 3 years working shes on a salary a little over £20,000, why? Because she works for a charity. I find it absolutely ridiculous that you think that she should pay the same for her education as someone such as a banker who is using his privileged education for selfish means. Income tax solves this, tuition fees do not, its completely regressive and in the long term will damage our economy.

The fundamental problem is parliament works in 5 year terms. They aren't looking to future stability, they are looking to cut the deficit within the next parliament. Lets be clear, these cuts WILL damage the economy beyond repair. Did you know for every £1 you invest in Higher Education you get £2.60 back approximately £1.30 of which is recovered in taxation?

Now you tell me why tuition fees are ok.

[Inseriousity.]

The marketisation of education is already here when Thatcher brought in choice. However, I am against a rise in tuition fees simply because fees a debt of close to £35,000 (that's just a hypothetical figure btw but 9000 x 3 + other expenditure and I'd say it was pretty close) is likely to put off poorer families anyway. Also, I do believe under the new system that Browne suggested the top unis would be able to charge more than the lower unis (I think this is what you meant by marketisation?), which also means it's likely we'll have all the rich who can afford it in the top unis and all the poorer unis in the lower unis. I also think that it depends on subject so science courses would cost more than 'the arts and humanities', which tries to define and validate 'soft' and 'hard' options which I disagree with as well.

Despite all that, I can't go on the march. I'd love to but I can't afford it LOL the irony.

[Technologic]

Still a hell of a lot cheaper than most countries

[Conservative,]

Still a hell of a lot cheaper than most countries

That's my thinking.

Plus, 9000 is the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM, and most Uni's will not be allowed to charge more than 6000/yr unless they give hefty reductions to poorer families.

I don't see the problem with tuition fees, if we didn't have them we'd be in so much debt it's unreal >;l

and the spending cuts are clearly improving the economy? According to top economists...so yeah.

[AgnesIO]

Still a hell of a lot cheaper than most countries

Just because other countries have high fees, doesn't make it right.

I hate how poorer families are like 'oh well we can get discounts coz we are poor'. Blah blah blah.

People seem to forget, that those of us whose parents earn more than all the government schemes include, don't have an easy life. My parents for example, earn a lot more money than they can for me to get EMA, but I can tell you now, I do not get £30 a week for going to college.

[myke]

I'm not and I wouldn't. I think it's moronic - people have to understand spending cuts need to be made, and prices have to rise. And the tuition fees will only go up if the University agrees to give discounts to poorer families, so tbh, it's not a big issue.

someone obviously hasnt looked at it properly or isnt planning on going to uni :)

im not going but good luck to all those that do.

and agreed with milestone, not everyone in the uk is 'poor' and can get discounts

[Conservative,]

someone obviously hasnt looked at it properly or isnt planning on going to uni :)

im not going but good luck to all those that do.

I'm planning to go to Uni, in fact I'd like to go to Cambridge, and no my parents aren't overly rich, but I think everyone slating it is just being blind to the truth that it has to happen.

[Nemo]

i might be going after school, but thats if its still ongoing. A lot of people i know are going

[clueless]

I think I'm going to go....

[luce]

I'm not and I wouldn't. I think it's moronic - people have to understand spending cuts need to be made, and prices have to rise. And the tuition fees will only go up if the University agrees to give discounts to poorer families, so tbh, it's not a big issue.

it is a massive issue. spending cuts need to be made but do you know the country spends over 2 billion a year solving problems directly caused by alcohol? If that was even halved and pumped into education in general think how much of a difference that would make?

i didn't go marching because i live in Guernsey. we are in the UK and governed by the government. However i will be facing international tuition fees because we're not officially in the EU so yeah that's another problem we face.

the bottom line of it is that too many unis are open and too many people go so it's not exclusivised like it should be therefore no one can possibly be funded because what you do for one you do for another it seems. there is no system of hierarchy anymore to any great deal and the people going to the top unis are getting penalized for being clever and able because they have to pay more for the privilege under the new proposed system whereas the poor less able will be subsidized to go on a three year jolly. I do believe the less able people with genuine intelligence should be helped though.

[-:Undertaker:-]

All three main parties support tutition fees and have raised them time and time again - those of you who can vote all voted for it when you placed a mark in the box next to either Labour, Conservative or Liberal Democrat.

Why is anybody who did the above suprised about this latest blatent disregard for the British people?

[immense]

All three main parties support tutition fees and have raised them time and time again - those of you who can vote all voted for it when you placed a mark in the box next to either Labour, Conservative or Liberal Democrat.

Why is anybody who did the above suprised about this latest blatent disregard for the British people?
best vote ukip then

[-:Undertaker:-]

best vote ukip then

Well UKIP are against tuition fees yeah, or you could vote for any other party or nobody at all - but at least then you aren't voting for it.

There's no point everybody pretending to be suprised by this latest lie, they do it all of the time - both in and out of office.

If you don't like it then don't vote for it.

[Dean]

I would go but I don't know anyone going, and I don't fancy going to a protest on my own!

[Rozi]

I would go but I don't know anyone going, and I don't fancy going to a protest on my own!

oh that is a bummer :(


and I'm going with some friends, gonna marker up a white t-shirt on the tube init

[Dean]

oh that is a bummer :(


and I'm going with some friends, gonna marker up a white t-shirt on the tube init

LOL I don't think my mates would be bothered anyway, everyone was like BLACK OPS today! Oh well :P

Have fun ;)

[MrPinkPanther]

All three main parties support tutition fees and have raised them time and time again - those of you who can vote all voted for it when you placed a mark in the box next to either Labour, Conservative or Liberal Democrat.

Why is anybody who did the above suprised about this latest blatent disregard for the British people?
This is about tuition fees not your own personal agenda. Gay.

[-:Undertaker:-]

This is about tuition fees not your own personal agenda. Gay.

There's no point you marching around with signs, only come next election for you to vote for more of the exact same.

[AgnesIO]

There's no point you marching around with signs, only come next election for you to vote for more of the exact same.

Apparently, if UKIP are against any fees, then they will just turn us in to Greece.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Apparently, if UKIP are against any fees, then they will just turn us in to Greece.

http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-news/1921-yi-chairman-slams-tuition-fee-hike


Plans by the coalition to raise the cost of tuition fees to up to £12,000 a year have been condemned by Young Independence Chairman Michael Heaver.

Responding to Business Secretary Vince Cable’s praise for Lord Brown’s University reform report, Michael Heaver responded by saying that “students now know where they stand with the Liberal Democrats”.

“It is sick to think that Nick Clegg proudly stood before the election in front of students as Liberal Democat Leader, saying that tuition fees were wrong”, said Heaver.

“Now with the glint of power in his eye, Clegg, Cable and the Liberal Democrats, in co-ordination with the Tories, have turned their back on affordable education.

“UKIP’s policy of supporting the abolition of tuition fees and bringing back student grants is the right one. We should scrap targets and only those who really need to go to University should, but it is fundamentally wrong that those who do so come out in such huge amounts of debt.

Heaver concluded: “These proposals are going to see even less people from poorer backgrounds go to University as they face such daunting burdens of debt before they even secure a job. Young people are going to be neck deep in debt, in a country with poor education standards and that doesn’t even have a proper Parliament thanks to the EU’s domination of our legislature.

“Things really are looking bleak for our young people, which is why UKIP need to continue pushing our vision of a brighter future for our young people”.

The grants system, although it would mean that overall we have less people going to university - but that is a good thing, at the moment we have too many so called 'mickey mouse' courses running and people who aren't suited to university are going to university because they feel as though there is little option. The education system overall is a mess and successive governments have tinkered around with it doing little to make it much better, first off the grammar system needs to return and work our way up from there.

But what i'm saying is, there are other options out there - there's no point people kicking up a fuss when they are going to go back to the ballot box come next election, and vote to continue the status quo.

[Technologic]

Get over it, earn some money or get a loan. We can't go on being spoonfed by the government

[Pyroka]

I'm going because I voted Lib dems, and I feel done by that they went back on one of their promises, the main one that made me vote them. I'm leaving 11:45PM tonight from Edinburgh.

[MrPinkPanther]

I'm going because I voted Lib dems, and I feel done by that they went back on one of their promises, the main one that made me vote them. I'm leaving 11:45PM tonight from Edinburgh.

you're my idol.

Posts merged by Bolt660 (Forum Super Moderator): Caused by Forum Lag

[MattFr]

I was going to make the epic trip from Cambridge but I have a coursework deadline and an exam tomorrow, can't miss those and my college doesn't support the campaign :(

Would love to be there supporting the cause though!

[Pyroka]

you're my idol.

Thanks lol no biggie

[MrPinkPanther]

Thanks lol no biggie
If i see you tomorrow then i'm gonna hug you. What do you look like?

[Pyroka]

If i see you tomorrow then i'm gonna hug you. What do you look like?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs494.ash2/76713_465139482339_700512339_5498964_938905_n.jpg

probably whati ll be wearing too

[AgnesIO]

Get over it, earn some money or get a loan. We can't go on being spoonfed by the government

In some ways I agree with you - but loans are costly.

[dbgtz]

In all fairness, you're not in a debt where you have to pay it no matter what, you have to be in a job which pays so and so much a year, so it's still an alright deal. But I think people dislike it, or one of the reasons they do, is because money is wasted elsewhere which people do not even want and yet something which people do want is being removed.

[GommeInc]

Meh, it was bound to happen and we pay alot less than other countries. If it becomes a chore, we could always do what Americans do and just get part-time jobs, which alot of British students currently do anyway, it's just no-one has caught on :P

[Hecktix]

I'll be there, I agree with rises of tuition fees (afterall costs need to be cut) but the fact that most universities will be trebling their fees is unacceptable.

[MrPinkPanther]

I'll be there, I agree with rises of tuition fees (afterall costs need to be cut)
Why? Why do they need to be cut? The current deficit in University education stood at a mere £4 Billion over a period of 4 years, relatively little considering the NHS budget will cost over 100 times that in the same period. The UK has one of the leading University sectors in the world, in fact judging by the QS World University rankings, 4 of the top 10 Universities are from the United Kingdom including the number one spot. Not bad considering our size. Lets ask ourselves why. We have the best Universities in Europe and so we attract the best European undergraduates. In my group of 5 close friends only one of them is English other than myself, sounds bad right? Well not when you consider that every one of them wants to stay in the UK. All of them are high achievers and are honestly some of the most academic people that you could ever meet and all of them will be contributing to our economy in the future. Now, because they are in the EU they pay the same fees as us, would they be here if they were 3 times as high? Not likely, in fact I know several people said they would have applied to the US if it weren't so expensive, with all of the grants that you get over there the price difference isn't actually that great after a tuition fee rise here, in many cases it would even be cheaper to study over there. On top of this as I quoted earlier, it's estimated that for every £1 you put into Universities you get £2.80 back, theres a reason for that. Higher Education is an invaluable resource because it literally provides the future of Britain, lets not put that at risk over a mere £1 Billion a year shall we?

[Moh]

The raise in tuition fees will also affect peoples living. A lot of people go to universities out of town to be more independent, makes you the person you are when you leave uni. I was going to go to a uni out of town, but with the new tuition fees I'm thinking of living at home where the cost will be a lot less. So not only will we have less uneducated people, we'll also have less independent people.

They also raised the budget for international development.. to help other countries with medical and education, would it not be best to educate people in the UK who can move abroad to help developing countries, like some sort of contact - government pay for your education if you agree to do a year or two helping developing countries :P

[ifuseekamy]

They'd save money if they closed all the crap universities and stopped letting them run useless courses. If they go ahead with it, well look at the brightside: you pay back a small percentage of every £1000 you earn over the threshold of £21,000 income after graduating. It's not America where your parents either start saving up from conception or you have to be smart enough to get a scholarship.

[immense]

hahahaha


1.51pm:

Paul Lewis is also outside the Conservatives Millbank HQ, where workers have been evacuated after 200 protesters gained entry. Police have "batons raised" in an attempt to clear the building, Paul says:


Police have just stormed the building with batons in what looks like an attempt to clear the area, however the attempt failed. Some batons were used to strike out at protesters inside, but police have left the protesters inside and instead formed a line in front of the entrance to the building.

We have a stand off.

Office workers have been evacuated from the building, after a warning message was sounded out inside. They are now sitting on grass opposite.

1.37pm:

Some protesters have broken into the Conservative party's Millbank headquarters, our man on the ground Matthew Taylor says:

I'm at 30 Millbank, the Tory HQ, and there's around 200 people inside Tory HQ, with several thousand outside.

Protesters are shouting: "Nick Clegg, we know you, you're a ******* Tory too."

Police are pushing through as we speak, there's a lot of jostling going on.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The usual rent-a-mob are out in force today, just like we had under Thatcher.

To Jake though, you might find this interesting (or you may choose to bury your head in the sand as many on here usually do).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8057871/Grants-loans-and-tuition-fees-a-timeline-of-how-university-funding-has-evolved.html


2001 Labour is re-elected with a manifesto pledge that it "will not introduce top-up fees and has legislated against them".

2002 More than 80 Labour backbenchers support calls to scrap tuition fees.

2003 Less than two years after pledging not to introduce top-up fees, Labour publishes a white paper setting out proposals to allow universities to set their own tuition fees up to a cap of £3,000 a year. The fees will be repaid once graduates earn above £15,000 and will be accompanied by a means-tested package of support.Today we can all see tribal politics at its worse, had the Labour Party been in the same position now then I can gurantee you would not have the same reaction (see above again concerning the rent-a-mob). All three main parties have lied, so before you all run off back to the Labour Party - pull your head out of the sand and realise that they are exactly the same.

[immense]

you missed out the fact that university numbers increased considerably, with the working class still going. that will be impossible now. better thread in spam with updates about this anyway. to compare what happened then is bizarre. most of the hatred is towards nick clegg and the lib dems - it didn't take them two years - 6 months. it's disgusting. they're just like ukip, saying things to get voted and then not following them through. load of ****.

[-:Undertaker:-]

..and thats part of the problem, there are too many people going to univesity with too many mickey mouse courses being run. That aside though, address my point - Labour have lied on this issue aswell, so why Jake are they [Labour] any better than the current coalition government?

[immense]

..and thats part of the problem, there are too many people going to univesity with too many mickey mouse courses being run. That aside though, address my point - Labour have lied on this issue aswell, so why Jake are they [Labour] any better than the current coalition government?

because ever since i've been conscious of politics it has been under labour rule and i have had a fabulous life. their policies have personally helped my family and even saved lives. i've had good healthcare, a wonderful state education and been given the opportunity to attend a decent university. something i wouldn't be able to do under these new policies.

[-:Undertaker:-]

because ever since i've been conscious of politics it has been under labour rule and i have had a fabulous life. their policies have personally helped my family and even saved lives. i've had good healthcare, a wonderful state education and been given the opportunity to attend a decent university. something i wouldn't be able to do under these new policies.

But Labour introduced the policy in the first place and lied about it.

Do you enjoy being taken for a mug?

In regards to the raise itself - you go out and get a job and pay for it. The only reason i'm opposed to this is because we're spending more money on the likes of the European Union and foreign aid, whereas I would rather have it spent here at home on the likes of University. But you and your party support more spending on likes of the EU and foreign aid don't you Jake? so where would you make cuts? I don't see why your all so opposed, the Tories are increasing overall goverment spending and spending it on your favourite things like the EU and foreign aid. (which you've all supported for over a decade).

The usual case of 'I dont like them because they are blue'.

[immense]

But Labour introduced the policy in the first place and lied about it.

Do you enjoy being taken for a mug?

In regards to the raise itself - you go out and get a job and pay for it. The only reason i'm opposed to this is because we're spending more money on the likes of the European Union and foreign aid, whereas I would rather have it spent here at home on the likes of University. But you and your party support more spending on likes of the EU and foreign aid don't you Jake? so where would you make cuts? I don't see why your all so opposed, the Tories are increasing overall goverment spending and spending it on your favourite things like the EU and foreign aid. (which you've all supported for over a decade).

The usual case of 'I dont like them because they are blue'.

No, not at all. I would be in favour of some sort of increase providing the money would be invested into Higher Education which isn't the plan. The plan is to make the individual pay - fair enough? Only if you're middle class. My family would support me going to University with the higher fees and I respect that I'm lucky. However, my housemate for example is firmly working class - it wouldn't be worth his while coming to University to be straddled with 40K+ debt. The working class are more adverse to debt. Also, Labour didn't want to cut 100% of the funding to some subject (arts + humanities - ironically most people who study the latter work for the Government anyway) and safe guard subjects they see as more important (science and maths). It's disgusting.

[-:Undertaker:-]

No, not at all. I would be in favour of some sort of increase providing the money would be invested into Higher Education which isn't the plan. The plan is to make the individual pay - fair enough? Only if you're middle class. My family would support me going to University with the higher fees and I respect that I'm lucky. However, my housemate for example is firmly working class - it wouldn't be worth his while coming to University to be straddled with 40K+ debt. The working class are more adverse to debt. Also, Labour didn't want to cut 100% of the funding to some subject (arts + humanities - ironically most people who study the latter work for the Government anyway) and safe guard subjects they see as more important (science and maths). It's disgusting.

Anyone is adverse to debt if they cannot pay it. If you do well in university it doesn't matter what class you are, when you come out it depends on how well you have done which determines what job you get. Instead of playing the usual class nonsense, actually think about it and use some common sense. Labour lied to you and introduced this system in the first place but you just dismiss that because they are red.

Class is irrelvent once you get past high school provided you do well (which again is why the grammar school system should be brought back in so that the poorest are able to attend the best schools).

In regards to funding i'll ask again; So where would you make these cuts Jake?

[immense]

Anyone is adverse to debt if they cannot pay it. If you do well in university it doesn't matter what class you are, when you come out it depends on how well you have done which determines what job you get. Instead of playing the usual class nonsense, actually think about it and use some common sense. Labour lied to you and introduced this system in the first place but you just dismiss that because they are red.

Class is irrelvent once you get past high school provided you do well (which again is why the grammer school system should be brought back in so that the poorest are able to attend the best schools).

In regards to funding i'll ask again; So where would you make these cuts Jake?

Of course it matters what class you are. You assume that anybody can go to uni in your original statement. This, perhaps may be the case at the moment but apply a pinch of common sense to the situation and we can realise that it won't be the case come 2012. Therefore, it will determine what job people get because they won't be able to acquire a degree. Also, to think class doesn't come into it is sheer ignorance. I live in the real world. My friends can't all come to university because they have to help their single mum pay the bills. Maybe you've led a sheltered, protected life but not everyone comes from a stable middle class background.

Tax. Not cut.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Of course it matters what class you are. You assume that anybody can go to uni in your original statement. This, perhaps may be the case at the moment but apply a pinch of common sense to the situation and we can realise that it won't be the case come 2012. Therefore, it will determine what job people get because they won't be able to acquire a degree. Also, to think class doesn't come into it is sheer ignorance. I live in the real world. My friends can't all come to university because they have to help their single mum pay the bills. Maybe you've led a sheltered, protected life but not everyone comes from a stable middle class background.

Tax. Not cut.

No it doesn't matter what class you are once high school is over (I will give you that, since the end of the grammar school system wealth and class have mattered) because the universities judge based on your grades which you achieved in your A Levels - not whether or not you are poor. You then, once in university, go out and get a job to pay off those debts you run up - yes some rich people may have their parents pay it off for them, but thats like inheritance - some people recieve more than others, its a family decision.

In regards to tax, you mean take more money out of the real economy (the private sector) thus making unemployment worse? have you learnt nothing from the 1970s? even Communist Cuba are cutting back the public sector now because they cannot afford it.

[immense]

No it doesn't matter what class you are once high school is over (I will give you that, since the end of the grammar school system wealth and class have mattered) because the universities judge based on your grades which you achieved in your A Levels - not whether or not you are poor. You then, once in university, go out and get a job to pay off those debts you run up - yes some rich people may have their parents pay it off for them, but thats like inheritance - some people recieve more than others, its a family decision.

In regards to tax, you mean take more money out of the real economy (the private sector) thus making unemployment worse? have you learnt nothing from the 1970s? even Communist Cuba are cutting back the public sector now because they cannot afford it.

Those people who haven't brought up in and around money in the sense that they have seen their parents struggle to pay the mortgage aren't going to be as open to the idea of university - which gives the individual opportunities - as much as people who have had a comfortable childhood. That is inevitable I'm afraid. On tax, it's not ideal, of course it isn't - neither is the world. However, it is fairer to get taxed on what you earn. Unfortunate for everyone, of course. Also, as I've already mentioned yesterday, it would be worth trying to get some of the billions of tax evasion back.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Those people who haven't brought up in and around money in the sense that they have seen their parents struggle to pay the mortgage aren't going to be as open to the idea of university - which gives the individual opportunities - as much as people who have had a comfortable childhood. That is inevitable I'm afraid. On tax, it's not ideal, of course it isn't - neither is the world. However, it is fairer to get taxed on what you earn. Unfortunate for everyone, of course. Also, as I've already mentioned yesterday, it would be worth trying to get some of the billions of tax evasion back.

A poor excuse, the poorest are often the best at handling money because they are most sensible with it.

No its not ideal is it Jake, its not ideal that private businesses close down while government continues to waste billions and billions. Its not ideal that more money is taken out of peoples pockets when they are already struggling with lost jobs, higher bills and constantly rising taxation. If its not ideal then dont advocate it, its far from ideal - its disasterous to raise taxes.

Government spends too much, it spends what it does not have - just as when you take out a loan, you'll live the high life - but one day that bill will arrive on your doorstep and you'll have to pay it back.

[immense]

A poor excuse, the poorest are often the best at handling money because they are most sensible with it.

No its not ideal is it Jake, its not ideal that private businesses close own while government continues to waste billions and billions. Its not ideal that more money is taken out of peoples pockets when they are already struggling with lost jobs, higher bills and constantly rising taxation. If its not ideal then dont advocate it, its far from ideal - its disasterous to raise taxes.

Government spends too much, it spends what it does not have - just as when you take out a loan, you'll live the high life - but one day that bill will arrive on your doorstep and you'll have to pay it back.

That is ridiculous. So because the poor have money issues they are more prepared to go to university to struggle further? You said mine was a poor excuse well that is bordering on insanity. What you said was void too because not as many jobs would be lost if tax was increased in proportion to your annual salary. Tax Justice found £70 billion is lost through tax evasion and a further £25 billion lost through tax avoidance. Fair? Is this fair?

Now the banks are owned by the tax payer they too could be used to benefit the people of the country. Some of the mass profits could be used to invest in public services. Also, like Ed Miliband, Labour leaded I think Trident could be reviewed which would save another £78 billion over 3 years.

Also, back to university as that's what this is about. Spending cuts to unis will lead to less place being available - less skilled workforce - in turn less attractive to the foreign economy which won't want to invest in us as much. Funny how Cameron knows the importance of this (a la his trip to India) yet still goes through with his brain-dead ideas.

[-:Undertaker:-]

That is ridiculous. So because the poor have money issues they are more prepared to go to university to struggle further? You said mine was a poor excuse well that is bordering on insanity. What you said was void too because not as many jobs would be lost if tax was increased in proportion to your annual salary. Tax Justice found £70 billion is lost through tax evasion and a further £25 billion lost through tax avoidance. Fair? Is this fair?

Yes, they are.

The idea which people like yourself prefer to advocate, that the poor are simple people who are going to remain poor for the rest of their life is absolute and utter nonsense. The cleverest will suceed because they'll pay it off when they get a high-flying job - whether they are poor, middle class or upper class. If not, then the rich will have theirs paid off by family (nothing you can do about that, its a fact of life that some people are richer than others).

In terms of tax, on one hand I agree - but tax should be lowered overall anyway. If you tax these companies then they will simply move elsewhere as is what happened in the 1970s. Why do you think the United States flourished in comparison to the Soviet Union? Watch the first part of the video below, a quick lesson in simple and basic economics;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEZJxyicHQA



Now the banks are owned by the tax payer they too could be used to benefit the people of the country. Some of the mass profits could be used to invest in public services. Also, like Ed Miliband, Labour leaded I think Trident could be reviewed which would save another £78 billion over 3 years.

Then nobody will invest in the banks. The banks will then go the same way as the railways, telephone companies, water companies, gas companies, electric companies etc etc when we nationalised them here many decades ago until they were finally freed by the Thatcher Ministry.

In terms of Trident, you want to scrap our best defence system? the same logic was adopted by the wackos in the Labour Party and CND back in the 1970s who wanted to scrap our nuclear weapons at a time when the USSR had thousands pointing at our towns and cities.


Also, back to university as that's what this is about. Spending cuts to unis will lead to less place being available - less skilled workforce - in turn less attractive to the foreign economy which won't want to invest in us as much. Funny how Cameron knows the importance of this (a la his trip to India) yet still goes through with his brain-dead ideas.

There are too many people going to university Jake and you know it - there are only so many skilled jobs. The reason why we are running short of so many unskilled jobs is very simple - we tax and regulate small companies too much which leads to unemployment. But thats what you want isnt it? more tax and regulation. Thats fine by me, but you'll end up with mass unemployment.

By which stage you then have a small and dying private sector and an expanding public sector, and of course the private sector is the sector which pays the bills. In an effort to sustain your bloated public sector, you have no other choice but to tax the remaining private sector - and you end up with a total economic collapse.

[immense]

Yes, they are.

The idea which people like yourself prefer to advocate, that the poor are simple people who are going to remain poor for the rest of their life is absolute and utter nonsense. The cleverest will suceed because they'll pay it off when they get a high-flying job - whether they are poor, middle class or upper class. If not, then the rich will have theirs paid off by family (nothing you can do about that, its a fact of life that some people are richer than others).

You genuinely don't understand do you? The only reason that poor people don't remain poor at the moment is because they have the opportunity to climb up the social hierarchy. I thought you didn't even believe in social class? Or are you beginning to understand? They can attend decent state schools, I know you will wrongly refute this but you can't tar all state schools with the same brush. Like there are struggling public schools who don't achieve what they should there are struggling state schools just like there are successful ones.


In terms of tax, on one hand I agree - but tax should be lowered overall anyway. If you tax these companies then they will simply move elsewhere as is what happened in the 1970s. Why do you think the United States flourished in comparison to the Soviet Union? Watch the first part of the video below, you might learn the basics of economics


That is again absolute codswallop. All these companies are going to leave one of the biggest consumerism places in the world and aren't going to be replaced? No. Watched the video and just because it adheres with what you believe doesn't give it any substance. You thought Gordon Brown was wrong on his economic policy yet he chaired the discussions with other European countries on how to act to the global recession.


Then nobody will invest in the banks. The banks will then go the same way as the railways, telephone companies, water companies, gas companies, electric companies etc etc when we nationalised them here many decades ago until they were finally freed by the Thatcher Ministry.


Again, to say nobody would invest in banks that serve the UK is ludicrous. They will still be running with vast amount of profits and only a small percentage of this will be used to invest in public services. I'm just glad labour were in charge when the world was hit with a global recession because unlike some political parties they intervened and ensure we didn't end up like Iceland and or Greece.


In terms of Trident, you want to scrap our best defence system? the same logic was adopted by the wackos in the Labour Party and CND back in the 1970s who wanted to scrap our nuclear weapons at a time when the USSR had thousands pointing at our towns and cities.


So you're pro-trident too. This isn't about scrapping it. They are replacing it. Why replace it? Sure, it might not be at the spear of systems but the UK isn't a world power any more. We used to be. We haven't been for over the last 100 years. We need to scrap this self-importance and realise we don't have to have the best of everything. I'm not saying it should be scrapped but I'm staunchly against it being replaced.


There are too many people going to university Jake and you know it - there are only so many skilled jobs. The reason why we are running short of so many unskilled jobs is very simple - we tax and regulate small companies too much which leads to unemployment. But thats what you want isnt it? more tax and regulation. Thats fine by me, but you'll end up with mass unemployment.

The more people that go to university the more skilled our work-force becomes. That is an irrefutable fact. People with degrees are now taking on jobs that 10 or so years ago would have been taken by people who didn't obtain degrees. Therefore, our services are being run and organised by qualified and educated people. You take university away from the masses then not only does it hinder their opportunities which is grossly unfair it will also affect wider society when the people in banks / government / schools aren't as qualified as they were previously.

Originally you said that just as many people would be going to university and now you're saying that not as many as go and that's a good thing because too many people go. You're just as bad as Nick Clegg, you.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You genuinely don't understand do you? The only reason that poor people don't remain poor at the moment is because they have the opportunity to climb up the social hierarchy. I thought you didn't even believe in social class? Or are you beginning to understand? They can attend decent state schools, I know you will wrongly refute this but you can't tar all state schools with the same brush. Like there are struggling public schools who don't achieve what they should there are struggling state schools just like there are successful ones.

I haven't tarred all state schools with the same brush, some state schools will be better than private schools but the majority are not. You are so against the rich and the wealthy but you adhere to that very system in support of the likes of the comprehensive system which allows the rich to go to the best state schools and the poor meanwhile are stuck with those in bad areas.

With marxoids like yourself, it often seems that you are determined to keep people down to keep your failed idealogy alive.


That is again absolute codswallop. All these companies are going to leave one of the biggest consumerism places in the world and aren't going to be replaced? No. Watched the video and just because it adheres with what you believe doesn't give it any substance. You thought Gordon Brown was wrong on his economic policy yet he chaired the discussions with other European countries on how to act to the global recession.

No Jake, its not what I believe - it is business fact. It is how the business world works.

They will leave just as they left in the 1970s Jake. You say we are one of the biggest consumer states and thats correct, that doesn't mean they [the companies] have to be based here. They can just as easily move to India or China where there are less regulations and lower rates of tax. Godfrey Bloom worked in business, he is a business and not a politician - he knows what he is talking about. Why do you think the City of London has been so successful over the past few years since the Thatcher government? because she lowered tax rates and removed harmful regulations so that business moved here which in turn provides jobs.

A business is there to make money, it will move if it has to.

Here is one recent example; http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-29/moore-s-jean-philippe-blochet-moves-to-zurich-as-bankers-flee-u-k-taxes.html



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHSPYhzDveE&feature=related


"..it's not an accident that the areas of the world that have the highest growth are those with lower taxes, fewer regulations and smaller public sectors" - that applies to your economic idealogy, which is economics of the mad house.




Again, to say nobody would invest in banks that serve the UK is ludicrous. They will still be running with vast amount of profits and only a small percentage of this will be used to invest in public services. I'm just glad labour were in charge when the world was hit with a global recession because unlike some political parties they intervened and ensure we didn't end up like Iceland and or Greece.

But we are going to end up like Iceland and Greece. The reason why all of these countries are burdened with debt isn't because of the financial crash a few years ago, it is because now the bills for this debt are coming home. Greece had a left wing government and has now defaulted on its debt, held up only by German loans which will in turn need paying back. The only reason the United Kingdom has so far stayed afloat is not because our government spends our money, its because we can still acquire more loans to pay for other loans we have taken out in the past - meaning that, if present spending continues we will also eventually default on our debt just like we did last time under a Labour government in 1979 when Jim Callaghan had to go cap in hand to the IMF.

In good times, loans are easier to get hold of - hence why Labour was able to secure so many loans that lasted so long. Now with the money drying up, credit is harder to get - both for the individual and UK PLC. Interest payments will be higher, one famous example is that thanks to Labour we now spend more on debt interest than we do on the entire education budget.


So you're pro-trident too. This isn't about scrapping it. They are replacing it. Why replace it? Sure, it might not be at the spear of systems but the UK isn't a world power any more. We used to be. We haven't been for over the last 100 years. We need to scrap this self-importance and realise we don't have to have the best of everything. I'm not saying it should be scrapped but I'm staunchly against it being replaced.

The UK was never a world power when we had Trident in the first place, an independent nuclear arms system means that we remain militarily independent - we've seen the consquences in recent years of not being militarily independent by being dragged into wars with the United States which are none of our concern.

With the rise of China, India, Pakistan - do you really want to end our nuclear weapons system?


The more people that go to university the more skilled our work-force becomes. That is an irrefutable fact. People with degrees are now taking on jobs that 10 or so years ago would have been taken by people who didn't obtain degrees. Therefore, our services are being run and organised by qualified and educated people. You take university away from the masses then not only does it hinder their opportunities which is grossly unfair it will also affect wider society when the people in banks / government / schools aren't as qualified as they were previously.

So what do all of these skilled people do? there are only ever going to be so many scientists, so many doctors, so many highly skilled jobs - the rest will always be low skilled jobs. The more skilled you are also, means the more wages would rise thus in turn you end up with less people being hired overall because the business can simply not afford it.

Nobody is going to pay an educated binman more than an uneducated binman - they both do the same job at the end of the day.


Originally you said that just as many people would be going to university and now you're saying that not as many as go and that's a good thing because too many people go. You're just as bad as Nick Clegg, you.

So that means i've been consistent in saying that too many people go to university, unlike Nick Clegg, unlike David Cameron and unlike Harriet Harman - mentioning Harman, you'll find this interesting;



Harman is a beauty isn't she? Once you scratch beneath her extremely thick skin, you can see a remarkable person.

First she pontificates that Labour MPs must never use lies to win elections. This despite Labours promise to hold a referendum on Europe. She was pro invasion of Iraq under Blair and now sides with Red Ed Milliband saying we should never have gone to war. Now she tries to position Labour as the friend of university students, after her party introduced these fees.

Two faced? Or just an accomplished liar herself? Let the court of public opinion decide.
- Steve, Stony Stratford, Bucks, 10/11/2010 13:57


But even with that said, you'll still dismiss it - blinded faith.

[Tintinnabulate]

People have to pay for education from primary school in many countries including India. It means they value education more and you don't get ********s at school trying to look cool, fighting with teachers and wrecking the building like you do here.
And paying people to go to college? That's ******* pathetic. Giving money should never be used as an incentive for college. If they cba going to college and getting free education then **** off.

Maybe people - including kids - should stop smoking and drinking from such a young age and save money for University.

OH NO ALL MY STUDENT LOAN IS GONE COS I DRUNK AND SMOKED IT ALL IN 4 WEEKS! PLZ HELP.

[AgnesIO]

People have to pay for education from primary school in many countries including India. It means they value education more and you don't get ********s at school trying to look cool, fighting with teachers and wrecking the building like you do here.
And paying people to go to college? That's ******* pathetic. Giving money should never be used as an inventive for college. If they cba going to college and getting free education then **** off.

Maybe people - including kids - should stop smoking and drinking from such a young age and save money for University.

OH NO ALL MY STUDENT LOAN IS GONE COS I DRUNK AND SMOKED IT ALL IN 4 WEEKS! PLZ HELP.

I couldn't agree more with you here. +Rep

[alexxxxx]

People have to pay for education from primary school in many countries including India. It means they value education more and you don't get ********s at school trying to look cool, fighting with teachers and wrecking the building like you do here.
And paying people to go to college? That's ******* pathetic. Giving money should never be used as an incentive for college. If they cba going to college and getting free education then **** off.

Maybe people - including kids - should stop smoking and drinking from such a young age and save money for University.

OH NO ALL MY STUDENT LOAN IS GONE COS I DRUNK AND SMOKED IT ALL IN 4 WEEKS! PLZ HELP.

then you'd have even more of an underclass of people like there is in india.

basically i can imagine this protest will detract from the main issue that the gove is cutting 40% of the uni budget and raising fees, where it is likely that the quality will fall whilst fees rise. id hate to be doing a humanities subject.. the contact time is already incredibly small. it would not be worth 6k/yr. my course is 20+hr a week and is quite good value for money.

[Mathew]

At present, the uni fees don't concern me but I understand they will in a couple of years. I suppose I should be quite bothered by this, but I haven't even been following the story that closely so I can't say whether it's good or not.

What I do find utterly pathetic though, is the stupid rioting and protesting going on outside (and now inside) Conservative HQ. Why should the protesters be taken seriously if they're smashing glass, making fires and hitting the authorities? By all means hold up your petty little signs and call Nick Clegg every name under the sun, but why act like a complete lunatic?

By watching the clips of Tory HQ today, I'd love to higher the fees just to prove a point and piss everyone off. One minute teenagers are complaining that they're being sterotyped as rowdy, loud, dangerous and rude; I suppose today just proves that sterotype right. Get a grip.

[immense]

At present, the uni fees don't concern me but I understand they will in a couple of years. I suppose I should be quite bothered by this, but I haven't even been following the story that closely so I can't say whether it's good or not.

What I do find utterly pathetic though, is the stupid rioting and protesting going on outside (and now inside) Conservative HQ. Why should the protesters be taken seriously if they're smashing glass, making fires and hitting the authorities? By all means hold up your petty little signs and call Nick Clegg every name under the sun, but why act like a complete lunatic?

By watching the clips of Tory HQ today, I'd love to higher the fees just to prove a point and piss everyone off. One minute teenagers are complaining that they're being sterotyped as rowdy, loud, dangerous and rude; I suppose today just proves that sterotype right. Get a grip.


The president of the NUS has condemned this and the people inside have been described as "old-school anarchists" - not students. However, conflict of reports - some people are saying it was a mix. Either way, this wasn't planned, people just used this march whose aim it was to prove a point about the brain-dead ideas of the coalition to get away with what they wanted to do. From videos I've seen, there is a separate group of violent people and student with placards around the outside. Looking to see what is going on, which is fair enough. Human beings are curious creatures. I'm sure some students got involved too but I think it's unfair to say this was organised and done by just students.

[MrPinkPanther]

I got hit by a riot policeman, he bashed me with his shield. Woop woop. The most manly event in my life.

[immense]

I got hit by a riot policeman, he bashed me with his shield. Woop woop. The most manly event in my life.

and the last, lets be honest. what was the general vibe? any humorous chants? any fit guys?

[Inseriousity.]

The vast majority went to protest; a small group of nutters went to riot.
Don't think it'll prove any stereotypes really... but it'll help the papers with their stories!!

[immense]

The vast majority went to protest; a small group of nutters went to riot.
Don't think it'll prove any stereotypes really... but it'll help the papers with their stories!!

specific papers anyway ;)

[MrPinkPanther]

and the last, lets be honest. what was the general vibe? any humorous chants? any fit guys?

General vibe was "Lets all hate on Clegg and Cameron" and then "Lets smash Camerons things". Same old chants from other protests. The highlight of which is this song:
"Build a bonfire, build a bonfire and put the tories on top,
put the lib dems in the middle and burn the ******* lot".

No fit guys ffs :(

[Mathew]

The president of the NUS has condemned this and the people inside have been described as "old-school anarchists" - not students. However, conflict of reports - some people are saying it was a mix. Either way, this wasn't planned, people just used this march whose aim it was to prove a point about the brain-dead ideas of the coalition to get away with what they wanted to do.
If the Lib Dems said they wouldn't raise fees then people should have every right to a protest, but I think the whole point of the march has been lost. What was once students demonstrating their anger at fees has turned into everyone and their cousins siezing the opportunity to bash the government.

How ironic that the hooded characters starting fires would probably have no chance getting into a University anyway. Old school anarchist is exactly right :P


Don't think it'll prove any stereotypes really... but it'll help the papers with their stories!!
Haha, they'll have a field day with this one :P


"Build a bonfire, build a bonfire and put the tories on top,
put the lib dems in the middle and burn the ******* lot".
Love it.

[immense]

General vibe was "Lets all hate on Clegg and Cameron" and then "Lets smash Camerons things". Same old chants from other protests. The highlight of which is this song:
"Build a bonfire, build a bonfire and put the tories on top,
put the lib dems in the middle and burn the ******* lot".

No fit guys ffs :(

Sounds perfect really apart from the lack of fitties.


If the Lib Dems said they wouldn't raise fees then people should have every right to a protest, but I think the whole point of the march has been lost. What was once students demonstrating their anger at fees has turned into everyone and their cousins siezing the opportunity to bash the government.

How ironic that the hooded characters starting fires would probably have no chance getting into a University anyway. Old school anarchist is exactly right :P

We live in the UK. The Government will always be bashed although most people won't bash the party they support. I would. I don't think the Iraq War was the right thing to do but then again I'm only saying that with hindsight and didn't have an opinion on it at the time :P Living in this democratic society people have every right to protest. What angers me is that the Lib Dems really went for the student vote and so many students did vote Lib Dem and it is disgusting how they've gone back on their pledge. They have effectively ruined their party, Clegg, seen as a saviour has ruined the party for years to come and I'm glad. Scum. I feel sick that I voted them.

[-:Undertaker:-]

We live in the UK. The Government will always be bashed although most people won't bash the party they support. I would. I don't think the Iraq War was the right thing to do but then again I'm only saying that with hindsight and didn't have an opinion on it at the time :P Living in this democratic society people have every right to protest. What angers me is that the Lib Dems really went for the student vote and so many students did vote Lib Dem and it is disgusting how they've gone back on their pledge. They have effectively ruined their party, Clegg, seen as a saviour has ruined the party for years to come and I'm glad. Scum. I feel sick that I voted them.

But you have no problem with the fact that Labour also lied regarding tuition fees?

[immense]

But you have no problem with the fact that Labour also lied regarding tuition fees?

Two years is a long time. Are you happy that UKIP want to control what British citizens wear in public?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Two years is a long time. Are you happy that UKIP want to control what British citizens wear in public?

Two years isn't a long time, you aren't angry at all about this issue - your just angry because its the group you don't like who are doing it.

As for UKIP and the burka ban, i've changed position on that - I disagree with it if they propose a outright ban via the law. If it were to be a specific law then i'd be against it but as I understand it, they don't propose that it would be a specific law - they would just allow the option to be there. I support the stance though, that should a private entity or public for that matter wish to ban the burka on their premises - they would be allowed to do so. That is the policy as I understand it. If UKIP were to get in and acted in the same way as the current lot do then i'd criticise UKIP just as much as I criticise the Lib/Lab/Con. But at least with them we'd be suprised if they backstabbed us, rather than voting in people we know are proven liars.

As the saying goes; Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[AgnesIO]

After seeing what some of the thugs at the protest were doing I am sort of on the fence whether fees should be cut :l

I totally understand that not everyone was causing damage etc, but the people that were would have been better off with a bullet in their head.

[ifuseekamy]

How ironic that the hooded characters starting fires would probably have no chance getting into a University anyway. Old school anarchist is exactly right :P

They're probably the type who do do these pointless courses at modern 'vocational' unis. The amount who missed out on a uni place this year was well over 200,000, over 4 times as many people who were at this protest. The government and schools need to make it clear that uni isn't for everyone and different options are available, otherwise figures will rise and you'll have top unis rejecting British students in favour of overseas ones who are willing to pay well over these fees and ever increasing fees for British students to fill the blackhole of funds being caused by too many unis, too many courses and too many students.

[immense]

Two years isn't a long time, you aren't angry at all about this issue - your just angry because its the group you don't like who are doing it.

As for UKIP and the burka ban, i've changed position on that - I disagree with it if they propose a outright ban via the law. If it were to be a specific law then i'd be against it but as I understand it, they don't propose that it would be a specific law - they would just allow the option to be there. I support the stance though, that should a private entity or public for that matter wish to ban the burka on their premises - they would be allowed to do so. That is the policy as I understand it. If UKIP were to get in and acted in the same way as the current lot do then i'd criticise UKIP just as much as I criticise the Lib/Lab/Con. But at least with them we'd be suprised if they backstabbed us, rather than voting in people we know are proven liars.

As the saying goes; Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

That isn't true at all. If you had actually read my posts in this thread you will see I am angry at the lib dems. But just to let you simmer down, the difference between labour and the tories is that labour doesn't want certain groups to fill in for losses. It would have been far more blanket and therefore fair. Seeing as the cost is 3290 at the moment perhaps they could have increased. However, increasing fees and then cutting spending by 100% in some subjects is something labour would never do. Get. that. in. your. skull. and. stop. with. the. crap. that. labour. and. the. tories. are. the. same.

I am angry because I voted lib-dem and they have gone back on arguably their biggest policy. You could get any sort of crazily stupid parties i.e. UKIP in power if you were to lie your way in. You need to stop your pointless rhetorical arguments on here because you offer **** all new and people are sick of replying to you. It would be fine if you didn't ram across the same message.

Lets get one thing straight, UKIP will never be running Britain.

[-:Undertaker:-]

That isn't true at all. If you had actually read my posts in this thread you will see I am angry at the lib dems. But just to let you simmer down, the difference between labour and the tories is that labour doesn't want certain groups to fill in for losses. It would have been far more blanket and therefore fair. Seeing as the cost is 3290 at the moment perhaps they could have increased. However, increasing fees and then cutting spending by 100% in some subjects is something labour would never do. Get. that. in. your. skull. and. stop. with. the. crap. that. labour. and. the. tories. are. the. same.

Yeah you are angry at the Liberal Democrats, and i'm asking you why you are when you support a party which also lied about this issue and which introduced this system in the first place - Labour did. So to bash the Liberal Democrats and the Tories over this issue is just totally and utterly hyporitical.

As for Labour spending plans, they also planned 25% cuts across government departments - and again you say they would be fair and nothing like this would happen under Labour, how do you know that when they have already lied on this issue before and have lied about numerous other issues? why on earth would you believe a word they say?

I really don't see your problem, the Tories are only doing what Labour did for the past decade. They've taxed us more than ever before, they continue to both run up big debts by increasing public spending year on year, they continue to take away services such as bin collections (and now university funding) and divert it to the likes of the European Union, foreign aid and government quangos (which this government in continuing) - thats what you want isnt it? that's what you've all been supporting/voting for for the last decade?


I am angry because I voted lib-dem and they have gone back on arguably their biggest policy. You could get any sort of crazily stupid parties i.e. UKIP in power if you were to lie your way in. You need to stop your pointless rhetorical arguments on here because you offer **** all new and people are sick of replying to you. It would be fine if you didn't ram across the same message.

Lets get one thing straight, UKIP will never be running Britain.

But you simply won't address the issue, you'll criticise the other parties for that sole reason - because they are other parties. Not because they are wrong, but because they aren't your party. If the election had gone the other way, let me guess the scenario; they'd do something along the exact same lines (afterall, even if they say they wouldnt - why would you believe them given their track record of lies?) and you'd be posting here right now "they have no choice, don't blame this on the Labour Party blame it on the bankers" - or some other crap excuse like that.

The fact you idolise Harriet Harman who is an obvious liar (which i've cited examples which prove it) just proves how tribalist you are.


You need to stop your pointless rhetorical arguments on here because you offer **** all new and people are sick of replying to you. It would be fine if you didn't ram across the same message.

don't dish it if you cant take it.

your quick to dish the dirt on the tories and liberal democrats, but seemingly cant handle it when i dish out dirt on the labour party.

[beth]

i went! it was ******* immense. bit dangerous, we stayed until riot police moved us.
ahaha it was awesome to see the tory staff **** themselves :)

aaaahhhh get involved!

[Neversoft]

Noooooooooo! I would have totally gone to this if I wasn't ill. :( Bloody torys.

[immense]

ahaha it was awesome to see the tory staff **** themselves :)


Bloody torys.

love you both

[Mathew]

Nick Clegg in the Houses of Parliament today.. I kinda felt sorry for him!
Love it how David Cameron is pissing around in China while all this is happening though; it couldn't have been planned any better! :P

I don't think I can stand watching the news any longer with these clips of the protesting. Photographers and journalists seemingly enjoying themselves in the middle of it all :P I do however find it depressing that the police can't handle prats such as this. It's a major problem with the police in this country in my opinion. All they'd need to do is show a gun and everyone would **** themselves, but of course that would be wrong of them.

So nobody gets the wrong impression though, it's a shame these morons spoilt the "protest" for the people who were actually trying to do something; the completely wrong message went out to people (such as myself!).

[Kipp]

I'm absolutely disgusted at the government at raising the University tuition fees. My parents don't want me to go to University when I finish my A levels (2012). I still want to go though, but it's going to cost a lot.

[AgnesIO]

i went! it was ******* immense. bit dangerous, we stayed until riot police moved us.
ahaha it was awesome to see the tory staff **** themselves :)

aaaahhhh get involved!

I really, really, really hope when you are at school/work you have loads of thugs smashing up the building giving you threats etc.

Seriously, what a ******* ridiculous post.

[Rozi]

I went too, and I just want to stress how the VAST MAJORITY were peaceful. I went past Tory HQ before the real trouble kicked off. Yeah there were people trying to get into the building but tbh most people standing outside were just chanting "tory scum". The overall mood I got from my day was yeah, **** the tories, but everyone was pretty upbeat and friendly.


And jake, there were loooaaaads of fit boys actually.


Plus I'm going to be on asain TV woooo :)

[beth]

I really, really, really hope when you are at school/work you have loads of thugs smashing up the building giving you threats etc.

Seriously, what a ******* ridiculous post.

lol so ridiculous.
you were NOT there, and the media are exaggerating.

maybe they can use the 9k to fix their windows?

i left far before anyone got hurt, so jog the **** on yeh?

[Neversoft]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FeWVX97G7E

[GommeInc]

lol so ridiculous.
you were NOT there, and the media are exaggerating.

maybe they can use the 9k to fix their windows?

i left far before anyone got hurt, so jog the **** on yeh?
You kinda proved his point and I am trying to figure out if you're acting or generally reflecting the over all view of the students who went to the protests - destructive and rude thugs. Your language and attitude give it away.

Those office staff in the Tory Headquarters are doing their jobs, it isn't their fault the party they represent on a ground floor level are not in the best light with regards to students and threatening them just makes matters worse, and there are so many videos and pictures of the protests, from people who I can assure you are nothing to do with the media, just shows you that some students probably should stay clear from high education as they lack the educational pre-requisites - that is to say, they prefer to lash out with little understanding and show lack of rational thought when it comes to the real world. Yes, there were peaceful protests, but these thugs ruin it for the majority, especially when they do not appear to be that much of a minority. Then you get the damage to public property (which includes grafiti) which is far from useful.

So yes, maybe you should rethink your options. No offense.

[Hecktix]

It's an awful shame that the demo turned violent however I can't say I'm not surprised. I am very pleased to see that the Met. Police Commissioner and the Prime Minister have said that there were not enough police on the streets.

225 officers were assigned to a protest which 90% of UK university unions were taking students down, it was always going to be a big demonstration with tens of thousands of students, we said from the start we thought there would be 50,000 due to the interest generated and we were right.

To only provide 225 police officers, as the Commissioner said, is an embarassment.

[Grig]

It's all part of the problem with the Coalition government. You get the Lib Dems standing for one thing and the Tories standing for another. The ideologies are quite contrasting, so really for the Lib Dems. this is not good at all. I actually see Labour becoming stronger after such events. They say it is about the 'balance', so it is tricky on what to deliberate increases on to decrease national debt.

As for the demonstrations, well angry students are never a good thing and I knew there would be those who would go riot. It was pre-expected, so I don't think how the commissioner for one of the best police forces in the world couldn't see it. They were lucky to have actually been able to stop them, it could have gone on for far longer and turned far more violent, even causing deaths.

In the positive, students have now captured the media attention of their plight, so changes may be made to the initial fee hikes proposed. But, that could mean it being transfered to other sectors and they'll get angry- it's a very delicate balance that needs careful consideration.

[Jordy]

I went too, and I just want to stress how the VAST MAJORITY were peaceful. I went past Tory HQ before the real trouble kicked off. Yeah there were people trying to get into the building but tbh most people standing outside were just chanting "tory scum". The overall mood I got from my day was yeah, **** the tories, but everyone was pretty upbeat and friendly.


And jake, there were loooaaaads of fit boys actually.


Plus I'm going to be on asain TV woooo :)So you all blame the Tories yet it was the Lib Dems who made the ridiculous pledge to get rid of tuition fees and are a partner in the coalition?

I read a very good article about this in The Times today (Page 2) which I recommend reading, I'll copy/paste a few extracts from the website seeing as it's now a pay-site.


Yesterday a group of students struck a blow. But they did not strike a blow for freedom, or for democracy, or for fairness. They just struck a blow. And shattered some glass. In the process they proved nothing, and persuaded nobody.

The economics of tuition fees are simple. As access to university rises, the bill to pay for universities rises. Someone has to pay this bill. Should it be those who benefit directly from a university education? Or should it be paid by everyone, including those who choose not to go to university or do not get the opportunity to do so?

In fact, it could be argued that yesterday’s protesters were being generous. Under current proposals it is not they who will have to pay increased fees, but the students who follow them. Any alternative would, presumably, require the protestors to chip in. Sadly, however, their true position is not one of generosity. It is one of naivety — that somehow the education will arrive without an invoice to pay.

So far, so tiresome. However, the students have more of a point when they protest against the activities of the Liberal Democrats. Nick Clegg allowed his party to adopt a profoundly unrealistic policy before the election and made promises he neither could nor should keep. It is right that the Lib Dems should pay a political price for their ludicrous posturing. And it is understandable that the inability of Mr Clegg’s party to keep his ridiculous pledge has provoked frustration and led to protest. But the fact that the broken windows were outside Conservative Party headquarters suggests that logic chopping with the Lib Dems was not really the aim of the violence.

This coalition is unlikely to be galvanised by infantile leftists prancing about hitting policemen.

Probably, however, the protesters do not really care about forming coalitions and formulating alternatives. They just wanted to run around in front of the television cameras saying: “Look at me, aren’t I clever?” No, not really.

[AgnesIO]

lol so ridiculous.
you were NOT there, and the media are exaggerating.

maybe they can use the 9k to fix their windows?

i left far before anyone got hurt, so jog the **** on yeh?

The rude attitude you have put across in this post suggests what an unsecure person you must be. If you think people being scared for their lives is funny, then may I wish you all the worst.

[Mathew]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FeWVX97G7E
Love the guy's face in the final second. Stupid ***** doesn't understand the concept or safety glass.


You kinda proved his point and I am trying to figure out if you're acting or generally reflecting the over all view of the students who went to the protests - destructive and rude thugs. Your language and attitude give it away.

Those office staff in the Tory Headquarters are doing their jobs, it isn't their fault the party they represent on a ground floor level are not in the best light with regards to students and threatening them just makes matters worse, and there are so many videos and pictures of the protests, from people who I can assure you are nothing to do with the media, just shows you that some students probably should stay clear from high education as they lack the educational pre-requisites - that is to say, they prefer to lash out with little understanding and show lack of rational thought when it comes to the real world. Yes, there were peaceful protests, but these thugs ruin it for the majority, especially when they do not appear to be that much of a minority. Then you get the damage to public property (which includes grafiti) which is far from useful.

So yes, maybe you should rethink your options. No offense.
Agree fully, +rep.


So you all blame the Tories yet it was the Lib Dems who made the ridiculous pledge to get rid of tuition fees and are a partner in the coalition?

I read a very good article about this in The Times today (Page 2) which I recommend reading, I'll copy/paste a few extracts from the website seeing as it's now a pay-site.
Ah I read this in my free period, along with the double page spread further on. Such an embarassment for the police! :(

[beth]

The rude attitude you have put across in this post suggests what an unsecure person you must be. If you think people being scared for their lives is funny, then may I wish you all the worst.

LOL unsecure? surely you mean insecure; i don't have a rude attitude.

i'm merely stating my opinions.

and yeah you know what, i would rather turn up to a protest, cause a bit of damage then sitting on my arse at home complaining about the world is and then doing nothing to change it.

i was at millbank from the start of the fire til about 6pm, which is when it all went too far. the fire should have been put out IMMEDIATELY. there were aerosols on there, which are dangerous as a start. the police watched from a distance...

[Niall!]

Get over it, earn some money or get a loan. We can't go on being spoonfed by the government

Says the teenage boy being spoonfed by his rich family.

[AgnesIO]

LOL unsecure? surely you mean insecure; i don't have a rude attitude.

i'm merely stating my opinions.

and yeah you know what, i would rather turn up to a protest, cause a bit of damage then sitting on my arse at home complaining about the world is and then doing nothing to change it.

i was at millbank from the start of the fire til about 6pm, which is when it all went too far. the fire should have been put out IMMEDIATELY. there were aerosols on there, which are dangerous as a start. the police watched from a distance...

How dare I miss type a word. I should be banned?

Would you like your house to be smashed up? I mean I would rather thieves smashed up peoples homes than sit on their arses on benefits. Oh wait.

[Conservative,]

i went! it was ******* immense. bit dangerous, we stayed until riot police moved us.
ahaha it was awesome to see the tory staff **** themselves :)

aaaahhhh get involved!
*REMOVED* You may not like their party but finding it funny that desk workers are suddenly surrounded bust cruel, thugs like you, who only want to cause destruction, is not in the least bit funny. They're doing their job. It's like environmentalists going and attacking a BP petrol station for the oil spill back in April - they are small people doing a small job.

I think these actions were so disgustingly violent and unneeded. The reforms are for the better if you cannot see that then you're blind.

I hope everyone out of those who got violent has their house smashed in or their dorm raided when they go to uni cos it's ******* bull**** what they did.


I'm, as everyone else, not the happiest of bunnies due to the cost - well get a ******* decent degree and don't **** up your education? Then you can pay the ******* debts off. I don't give a **** because I'm going to get a good job, i'm going to make the most of my education.

The morons protesting and causing chaos yesterday are the ones who won't be able to afford Uni because they'll be working in McDonalds for the rest of their lives.

Edited by Hecktix (Assistant General Manager): Please don't be rude to other member

[Conservative,]

Just adding: I'm not rich, but I intend to go with these because I know causing chaos is only going to make things worse? People who complain are - as I said - the ones who won't be able to afford it because they'll be working in fast food restaurants.

[Niall!]

As a guy living in Northern Ireland, I'm slightly worried. If anything like this happens here there is a high chance the troubles will start again. It's not very well known and the facts have become quite distorted, but some say a big part of the troubles were student protests/riots.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea; I hate the fact poorer people will have to give up on their ambitions because of money.

[Jordy]

As a guy living in Northern Ireland, I'm slightly worried. If anything like this happens here there is a high chance the troubles will start again. It's not very well known and the facts have become quite distorted, but some say a big part of the troubles were student protests/riots.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea; I hate the fact poorer people will have to give up on their ambitions because of money.From my understanding, the poor will actually be paying less as will about 20% of people under these proposals. With bigger fees come bigger grants :)


LOL unsecure? surely you mean insecure; i don't have a rude attitude.

i'm merely stating my opinions.

and yeah you know what, i would rather turn up to a protest, cause a bit of damage then sitting on my arse at home complaining about the world is and then doing nothing to change it.

i was at millbank from the start of the fire til about 6pm, which is when it all went too far. the fire should have been put out IMMEDIATELY. there were aerosols on there, which are dangerous as a start. the police watched from a distance...You didn't change anything though? You went against the wishes of the NUS and got yourselves a bad reputation. And in the process you will not have swayed public opinion in the slightest, quite the opposite.

When you smash the windows of the Tory HQ the only people you're damaging are yourselves, quite literally, the coalition isn't going to back down to this pathetic mob-like behaviour.

[beth]

Get a ******* life. You may not like their party but finding it funny that desk workers are suddenly surrounded bust cruel, thugs like you, who only want to cause destruction, is not in the least bit funny. They're doing their job. It's like environmentalists going and attacking a BP petrol station for the oil spill back in April - they are small people doing a small job.

I think these actions were so disgustingly violent and unneeded. The reforms are for the better if you cannot see that then you're blind.

I hope everyone out of those who got violent has their house smashed in or their dorm raided when they go to uni cos it's ******* bull**** what they did.


I'm, as everyone else, not the happiest of bunnies due to the cost - well get a ******* decent degree and don't **** up your education? Then you can pay the ******* debts off. I don't give a **** because I'm going to get a good job, i'm going to make the most of my education.

The morons protesting and causing chaos yesterday are the ones who won't be able to afford Uni because they'll be working in McDonalds for the rest of their lives.


ahhaa i work in mcdonalds, i got three a's at a level, and i'm studying a masters degree. do you wanna re think?

but firstly, try and construct a sentence without swearing and get back to me. all i'm saying you don't understand what happened because you weren't there, i didn't say i condoned the violence; i said i understood it. and i do, and i stood back and watched because i know WHY they're angry. because i'm angry. my course could be discontinued next year due to these cuts, what do i do then?

you can judge me all you like, you really can. i couldn't care less. me and my uni went there yesterday to be heard, and it would appear the world has selective hearing :)

[Conservative,]

It would appear that if you thought about it the violence will get you nowhere. You stood and watched..you could have walked on? Now you look bad and so does everyone who kicked in the Tory hq.

[beth]

It would appear that if you thought about it the violence will get you nowhere. You stood and watched..you could have walked on? Now you look bad and so does everyone who kicked in the Tory hq.

i could've walked on yeah, but so couldve 20,000 others. and of those 20,000 about a 100 did damage.

[Inseriousity.]

Just adding: I'm not rich, but I intend to go with these because I know causing chaos is only going to make things worse? People who complain are - as I said - the ones who won't be able to afford it because they'll be working in fast food restaurants.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3223927/We-expose-university-protest-yob.html


But O'Callaghan - who lives on handouts from his university professor father and government researcher father

What a very stereotypical comment. In fact, lots of students work in fast food restaurants because they're so big that they can be flexible around their studies.

[beth]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3223927/We-expose-university-protest-yob.html



What a very stereotypical comment. In fact, lots of students work in fast food restaurants because they're so big that they can be flexible around their studies.

thankyouuu. mcdonalds give me freedom around working and university, and pay me well. and give me hours when i need them.
just because i serve food, it doesn't make me a ******.

[GommeInc]

and yeah you know what, i would rather turn up to a protest, cause a bit of damage then sitting on my arse at home complaining about the world is and then doing nothing to change it.

i was at millbank from the start of the fire til about 6pm, which is when it all went too far. the fire should have been put out IMMEDIATELY. there were aerosols on there, which are dangerous as a start. the police watched from a distance...
But being a happy medium, turning up to a protest and putting forward a good case, is better than the extremities of destroying things, which I believe may have been down to individuals who actually just want to destroy things, rather than fight for a good cause and secure future. The people I respected in the protest were the ones that actually spoke, rather than acted. Afterall, a baby chucking it's toys out of it's pram isn't going to make much sense if it refuses to tell you what's up.

And the police probably don't want to be blown up :P They probably shouldn't attempt to chuck water on the blaze, if the heat is there those cans are going to go up no matter what :P

And in support of Bethie, McDonald's actually pays really well and is an idea place to work as a student, and many do.

[hairpins]

i feel sorry for the people having to pay the extra 30ish thousand back pmsl
atleast we r safe nowin the new goverment offices r lookin flush cos they spent £20000 of tax payers money on new art work
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/11/coalition-spends-20000-hanging-art

[Conservative,]

i feel sorry for the people having to pay the extra 30ish thousand back pmsl
atleast we r safe nowin the new goverment offices r lookin flush cos they spent £20000 of tax payers money on new art work
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/11/coalition-spends-20000-hanging-art

Hope it was the demonstrators tax money tbh, that would annoy them >;]

[hairpins]

Hope it was the demonstrators tax money tbh, that would annoy them >;]
no hun it mite be the money they r savin by cuttin half a million jobs from the ministry of defence
or the other 100000 from the nhs not sure tho xo

eye woz gonna say dat dey mite of used the £6 billion dat vodafone owe in tax but the new govament sed dey dunt have 2 pay it anymore… mite have sumfing to do wiv da fact da old boss of vodafone is now apart of the new business secratory?????? PMSL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGg2VUDKVJk

n eye woz goin 2 say dat dey mite of got da money from dat moneyz dey saved by cuttin loads of goverment staff but dey employed loads more lyke david camerons (bestm8) hu is now on £200000 a year as a personal photographer pmsl anywayz hu cares abowt tht xoxo

[MrPinkPanther]

no hun it mite be the money they r savin by cuttin half a million jobs from the ministry of defence
or the other 100000 from the nhs not sure tho xo

eye woz gonna say dat dey mite of used the £6 billion dat vodafone owe in tax but the new govament sed dey dunt have 2 pay it anymore… mite have sumfing to do wiv da fact da old boss of vodafone is now apart of the new business secratory?????? PMSL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGg2VUDKVJk

n eye woz goin 2 say dat dey mite of got da money from dat moneyz dey saved by cuttin loads of goverment staff but dey employed loads more lyke david camerons (bestm8) hu is now on £200000 a year as a personal photographer pmsl anywayz hu cares abowt tht xoxo

Living proof that we need to be putting more money into education and not cutting it. x