Cameron lectures China on democracy

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1328327/David-Cameron-tells-China-embrace-freedom-law.html



Tidal wave of cash risks us all: Cameron warns globalisation will 'go into reverse' unless China corrects trade imbalance



PM says Britain's democratic traditions 'make our government better'



Mr Cameron raises concerns over detention of Nobel Peace Prize winner


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Globalisation could 'go into reverse', harming economies around the world, unless China acts to correct dangerous trade imbalances, David Cameron warned today. In an extraordinary condemnation of their repressive political regime, the Prime Minister warned that the massive surpluses created by China's export success had created 'a dangerous tidal wave of money' sweeping around the world. The Prime Minister, who is on a high-profile state visit to Beijing, used a public speech at Peking University to insist that greater economic freedoms for China must go hand in hand with greater political freedom for its people. On the eve of a G20 summit at which Beijing will face pressure to allow faster appreciation of its yuan currency, Mr Cameron also risked infuriating his Communist hosts by championing democratic elections and a free press and by calling for China to develop 'a greater political opening'.


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Mr Cameron pointed out that were he not in China, he would today be facing questions from the Opposition in the House of Commons. His Chinese counterparts, on the other hand, have ruthlessly crushed all political dissent. Mr Cameron accepted that Britain's society was 'not perfect' and insisted he was not trying to lecture the Chinese or claim a position of 'moral superiority'. But he said Britain's democratic traditions 'make our government better and our country stronger', adding: 'The rise in economic freedom in China in recent years has been hugely beneficial to China and to the world. 'I hope that in time this will lead to a greater political opening, because I am convinced that the best guarantor of prosperity and stability is for economic and political progress to go in step together.' Mr Cameron said he wanted 'to make the positive case for the world to see China's rise as an opportunity, not a threat'.


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But he said if Europe's openness to China is to be maintained, it must be clear that 'China is open to Europe'. And he said China can take a leading role now on dealing with economic problems as the world emerges from recession. His remarks come at a particularly sensitive time for the one-party Chinese state. Yesterday officials barred the lawyer of Nobel peace prize winner Liu Xiaobo, who has been jailed for 11 years for calling for political reform, from travelling to the UK. Mr Cameron is understood to have raised the detention of Nobel Peace Prize winner Liu Xiaobo at a banquet hosted by premier Wen Jiabao last night.



Well thats rather hypocritical isn't it Mr Cameron, especially when China doesn't pretend to be democratic whilst we do - and Call Me Dave rolls over for unelected EU politicians to make a majority of our laws while unelected European judges implement a foreign justice system on British subjects over here in the United Kingdom. I mean we could even add on that the fact that the United States has missiles and military bases on British soil as though we were some puny colony - while we follow them into ridiculous wars.

The United Kingdom is broke yet Cameron is now lecturing the Chinese (who are very wealthy) on how to run their economic policy, how very patronising to both us at home and to the Chinese.

- China is wealthy, Britain is poor (by debt standards).
- China makes her own laws, Britain has many of her laws imposed on her from the continent.
- China has a popualtion of 1bn+ yet has less CCTV than Britain which has a population of 60m+

Why the Chinese give this man or any western leader the time of day is beyond me.

Thoughts?

[Dean]

Britain is a mess, China isn't, end of.

[Jordy]

Britain is a mess, China isn't, end of.We get a vote, we can say anything we like, we don't have people dying of poverty or being locked up for opposing the government. I can honestly say I've never read a post which angers me so much. You don't seem to appreciate how lucky you are to be brought up in Britain with all the wealth and freedom. Yes this country isn't perfect but it's absolute ******** to suggest Britain is in a mess and China isn't. There is a few issues with this country but they are pretty minor compared to the rest of the worlds, particularly Chinas.

At the end of the day, which would you have rather been born, Chinese or British? Where would you rather live, China or Britain? Yeah thought so.

That applies to anyone else who fancies talking so much nonsense as well.

[Conservative,]

We get a vote, we can say anything we like, we don't have people dying of poverty or being locked up for opposing the government. I can honestly say I've never read a post which angers me so much. You don't seem to appreciate how lucky you are to be brought up in Britain with all the wealth and freedom. Yes this country isn't perfect but it's absolute ******** to suggest Britain is in a mess and China isn't. There is a few issues with this country but they are pretty minor compared to the rest of the worlds, particularly Chinas.

At the end of the day, which would you have rather been born, Chinese or British? Where would you rather live, China or Britain? Yeah thought so.

That applies to anyone else who fancies talking so much nonsense as well.

Agree with you 100%. Yes, ok, China are, as a state, richer, but their GDP is lower than ours, they have people dying of starvation, and their standard of living is a hell of a lot worse than ours. They don't have free elections or free press, and if you oppose their commy regime you get locked up and called a loonie. If that's not a mess then you're messed...in the head.

[Jordy]

Agree with you 100%. Yes, ok, China are, as a state, richer, but their GDP is lower than ours, they have people dying of starvation, and their standard of living is a hell of a lot worse than ours. They don't have free elections or free press, and if you oppose their commy regime you get locked up and called a loonie. If that's not a mess then you're messed...in the head.Exactly, it really is as simple as that :)

+rep

[immense]

China is a ghastly country.

[Conservative,]

China is a ghastly country.

Glad we see eye to eye on that then Jake :)

[Neversoft]

their GDP is lower than ours
No it isn't.

[Conservative,]

No it isn't.

I meant average wealth, I can't remember the name of it, I don't do geography. But essentially, the questions still asks, where would you rather live: China or Britain?

[ifuseekamy]

Seeing as we practically invented the best part of their country, which is an economic global superpower in its own right, they ought to listen.

[Jordy]

I meant average wealth, I can't remember the name of it, I don't do geography. But essentially, the questions still asks, where would you rather live: China or Britain?GDP Per capita is what you're looking for, divides the GDP by the population :)

In which case we come 22nd and they come 99th...

[Conservative,]

GDP Per capita is what you're looking for, divides the GDP by the population :)

In which case we come 22nd and they come 99th...

That's what I meant haha xD! And yeah that was my point :P

[Fez]

They are pretty much a superpower in their own right now.

[Conservative,]

They are pretty much a superpower in their own right now.

Too much poverty for that, but other than that yes they are. If they improve their human rights & poverty issues they will most definitely be a super power.

[Chippiewill]

China is a terrible place, it's a shame the residents don't actually realise. Seriously, could you imagine a world without youtube? Go visit china. Could you imagine a world without facebook? Go visit china. Could you imagine a world without the freedom to stand up to the government? Go visit china.


- China has a popualtion of 1bn+ yet has less CCTV than Britain which has a population of 60m+
To be honest, I like knowing that my death could be caught on CCTV.

[Frodo13.]

For me, it stinks of hypocracy that Undertaker can defend China, yet for any other country that would addapt socialist or communist regimes he slates them (with the help of his precious Daily Mail of course).

[-:Undertaker:-]

We get a vote, we can say anything we like, we don't have people dying of poverty or being locked up for opposing the government. I can honestly say I've never read a post which angers me so much. You don't seem to appreciate how lucky you are to be brought up in Britain with all the wealth and freedom. Yes this country isn't perfect but it's absolute ******** to suggest Britain is in a mess and China isn't. There is a few issues with this country but they are pretty minor compared to the rest of the worlds, particularly Chinas.

At the end of the day, which would you have rather been born, Chinese or British? Where would you rather live, China or Britain? Yeah thought so.

That applies to anyone else who fancies talking so much nonsense as well.

You've just dismissed everything I said and gone on about poverty and starvation which has little to do with it, Germany was arguabley better under Adolf Hitler but it doesn't mean he was such a great thing.

You also say we can vote, yeah we can - but the person we vote in takes orders from people who we don't. A bit like China if i'm not mistaken, China has local/regional elections to my knowledge where they pick a manager-type figure who ultimately has to take orders from the supreme CCP or the Chinese Courts. Indeed, very much like Mr Cameron takes orders from the Commission and the European Courts.

I mean take one example, we can lock people up here (without charging them) for longer than they do in Zimbabwe. Just because we have food on the table, a advanced economy and smooth roads doesn't mean we are freer than those who are poor.


For me, it stinks of hypocracy that Undertaker can defend China, yet for any other country that would addapt socialist or communist regimes he slates them (with the help of his precious Daily Mail of course).

China is a police-state, its economy is a very capital leaning one.

I defend many socialist states, or left-leaning states. Cuba and Castro, Iraq under Saddam - I may not agree with their line of thought but its Britains place to tell them how to run their own country. Maybe you'd like to address my points rather than banging on about the Daily Mail?

[Chippiewill]

-some more pointless winging to explain why UKIP is better than china-
Try using the internet in china, oh wait, yeah. You can basically only access government run websites and all other websites are randomly searched by chinas government. Oh and the TV blacks out whenever something bad about china comes on? Oh yeah I didn't realise that I could say something about the government in the UK on national TV but not in China.

If you said what you say in China you would be arrested, tortured and any evidence of it inaccessible/deleted. Stop trying to pretend that China is as good as the EU.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Try using the internet in china, oh wait, yeah. You can basically only access government run websites and all other websites are randomly searched by chinas government. Oh and the TV blacks out whenever something bad about china comes on? Oh yeah I didn't realise that I could say something about the government in the UK on national TV but not in China.

If you said what you say in China you would be arrested, tortured and any evidence of it inaccessible/deleted. Stop trying to pretend that China is as good as the EU.

But i'm not making the comparison that the European Union or that Britain is anything like China in terms of the gulags that exist there, or starvation or criticism of the ruling political parties. For one example would be the fact that the EU and the USSR are structured similar - which is fact and is backed up by a number of ex-Soviets who have made the comparison along with their former Presidemt, Mr Gorbachev. Just because that comparison is made, it doesnt mean that everybody in the EU is starving/being carted off by secret police in the middle of the night - it is simply showing that both the EU and the USSR share the same undemocratic setup.

I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy when we lecture countries like China despite the fact that we also are far from properly democratic and we also have laws which determine what you can and can't say. The EU makes a majority of our laws, yet they are unelected and unaccountable - just the same as the CCP in China. So whats the difference, other than the fact you've been told by our politicians that they are in the wrong and we are in the right. Start analying it for yourself rather than listening to the likes of Cameron on democracy - a man who refuses to hold referendums and gains power based on making promises he never intends to carry out.

China doesn't pretend, we do.

[Chippiewill]

gains power based on making promises he never intends to carry out.


Because you of course can guarantee that UKIP will..

[Frodo13.]

Maybe you'd like to address my points rather than banging on about the Daily Mail?

That right there is the great irony in you. I wouldn't be defending your points, I'm defending the points of a newspaper. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I read on this forum a while back that you want to do history at uni? You would make a terrible historian due to you being able to draw points from a single source.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm rather sick of people such as yourself sniping at my arguments (without actually disproving anything yourselves) by attacking the Daily Mail when I could very easily do the same by criticising the Guardian/the Mirror and by saying 'ahh but yes, this is the Guardian brainwashing you' - if I followed the Daily Mail to the line then i'd be under the impression (pre-election) that David Cameron was the next Jesus Christ. The Mail avidly pitched in for Cameron just as it did for Blair in 1997.

So enough of this newspaper nonsense.


That right there is the great irony in you. I wouldn't be defending your points, I'm defending the points of a newspaper. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I read on this forum a while back that you want to do history at uni? You would make a terrible historian due to you being able to draw points from a single source.

But my arguments about China aren't coming from the Daily Mail so i'm struggling here to find your 'point'. What is your point??

That article you could argue pretty much has negative-China feel, i'm arguing in support of China in some aspects, so again whats your point?

[Jordy]

You've just dismissed everything I said and gone on about poverty and starvation which has little to do with it, Germany was arguabley better under Adolf Hitler but it doesn't mean he was such a great thing.

You also say we can vote, yeah we can - but the person we vote in takes orders from people who we don't. A bit like China if i'm not mistaken, China has local/regional elections to my knowledge where they pick a manager-type figure who ultimately has to take orders from the supreme CCP or the Chinese Courts. Indeed, very much like Mr Cameron takes orders from the Commission and the European Courts.

I mean take one example, we can lock people up here (without charging them) for longer than they do in Zimbabwe. Just because we have food on the table, a advanced economy and smooth roads doesn't mean we are freer than those who are poor.The reason I dismissed everything you said was because I wasn't replying to you. And once again I'm going to dismiss everything you've said as I don't feel I need to explain once again how lucky we have it, nor do I need to compare the UK/EU to the likes of China and Zimbabwe in an attempt to prove a point.

[StefanWolves]

If I were Chinese I'd rather die than live in their country. Don't they have to have a license to have babies over their?

Anyway, China will take over the world one day and we will all be Chow-mein munchers