Student vandals turn second university fees protest violent

[Dean]

Students clashed with police today as tens of thousands marched through London in a second mass protest against tuition fees and university budget cuts.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/11/24/article-1332484-0C382AEB000005DC-530_634x422.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/11/24/article-1332484-0C387164000005DC-491_634x421.jpg


A police van abandoned in Whitehall was surrounded and vandalised. Protesters climbed on the roof, covered the vehicle with graffiti and smashed the windows. A flare was later set off and demonstrators broke open the van's doors.

Student leaders at the scene could be seen pleading for calm as attempts were made to set it on fire. Whitehall was brought to a standstill.

The main flashpoint was the gateway to King Charles Street near the Foreign Office where several lines of riot police prevented students reaching Downing Street. One officer suffered a broken arm and another was led away after being hit in the face with a missile.

The Met were reported to have made three arrests for violent disorder and theft.

The Met insisted they had “proportionate and appropriate” numbers of officers dealing with the protesters — marking their determination not to be caught out as they were when students stormed Millbank two weeks ago.

School pupils in blazers could be seen among the student protesters. Debris was scattered across Whitehall as marchers made bonfires out of their placards and wrecked bus shelters.

Students occupied universities including Royal Holloway, London South Bank and University College London. Protests were staged at universities and colleges in Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Bristol, Southampton, Oxford, Cambridge, Leeds, Newcastle, Bournemouth, Cardiff, Glasgow and Edinburgh.

The coordinated mass demonstration was dubbed “Day X”.

In London lines of officers “kettled” thousands of students at key points. Members of the Met's territorial support group, officers on horseback and dog handlers were seen at different parts of the protests.

A Met spokesman said: “There is containment in Whitehall to prevent further criminal damage and we will look to disperse anyone being held as soon as we can when we can ensure no further criminal damage will be committed elsewhere.”

One protester named only as “Zoe” said: “A lot of people wanted to get that burst of anger out of them, but they shouldn't just vent it on police vans. It really does dampen the effort of other people.”

In Whitehall a ring of girls surrounded the police van and pleaded with the vandals to come down. They shouted: “This is a peaceful protest.”

Mark Bergfeld from the Education Activist Network, said the protest was designed to “blow people's minds”.

Headteachers were urged to allow students to protest inside school buildings in an effort to stop them taking part in a mass demonstration.

Professor Chris Knight, a former anthropology lecturer at the University of East London said: “Occupations are happening, school children are walking out.

“There is some form of action at every university in London. It is almost a revolutionary situation.

“Unlike the last protest there is not one mass convergence happening, but everyone is doing their bit across London and I expect it to be bigger than the last protest.”

Commander Bob Broadhurst, who is in charge of today's operation, said police planned to come down on students who caused trouble at today's protests “swiftly and decisively”.

Police deployed lines of officers outside the Tory and the Lib-Dem HQs amid fears of violence.

Police refused to say how many police were involved in today's operation. So far more than 60 people have been arrested in connection with the occupation of Millbank and the damage caused to the building.

Nick Clegg issued a plea to students taking part in protests to look at the details of the Government's proposals, which he insisted were fairer than either the current regime or the graduate tax backed by the National Union of Students.

On BBC Radio 2's Jeremy Vine Show the Deputy Prime Minister said he regretted being unable to deliver on his pledge to prevent tuition fee increases.

"I regret of course that I can't keep the promise that I made because - just as in life - sometimes you are not fully in control of all the things you need to deliver those pledges," he said.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23900473-students-march-again-over-university-fees.do

I can't blame them for being angry, after all, it's our future that the government are screwing with. I was meant to go to this protest today but I managed to sleep in till half 2 in the afternoon. :whistle:

[GommeInc]

Ah yes, throwing things out of a pram, that's going to work. If anything the Government is just going to take public money and fix the damages. Are these people even students who are causing all this mindless vandalism? Because I can see why tuition fees and entries are being cut if idiots like them are allowed into higher education. This is just averting away from the central issue, blurring the cause of the protests in the first place. I feel sorry for the people who led the protest and those involved in the protesting who were actually protesting against the rise in tuition fees when these vandals have again got involved. It looked as though it was a pretty well thought out protest too - instead of protesting in one central location, it was the whole of London at the campuses and other areas. I think there are similar protests happening around the UK, most of which involve stopping what you're doing, protesting outside main buildings (libraries, unions etc) and getting the message across that way.

[g]

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Edited by Dean (Trialist Forum Moderator): Please do not make racist comments, thanks.

[matt$]

hes got money to blow out on nikes though

[g]

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Edited by Dean (Trialist Forum Moderator): Please do not make racist comments, thanks.

[Ed.]

I was watching it live on BBC News Channel.

[AgnesIO]

What a ******* **** head. He is so brave he has a scarf on his face.

Why do these ******s think trashing things is going to help?

**** off

[Neversoft]

Fair play in my opinion. As if the government are going to listen anyway. Clegg should've known full well the consequences of going back on his word. I only wish they did this yesterday when I was actually in London. Could have gone again today but seeing as how I am going to be in debt for the rest of my life better start saving now.

[Minstrels]

I love how you're swearing on the internet, get down to one and tell everyone what you think eh? I'm sure you'll get a nice reaction, just like the police who hit us all with batons whilst we were sat down got a pleasant reaction and hugs alround.

[GommeInc]

Fair play in my opinion. As if the government are going to listen anyway. Clegg should've known full well the consequences of going back on his word. I only wish they did this yesterday when I was actually in London. Could have gone again today but seeing as how I am going to be in debt for the rest of my life better start saving now.
So true. The Lib Dems should of kept to their words rather than let the Conservatives walk all over them. As far as I can tell, there are no Lib Dems, just a small Conservative party that merged with a larger Conservative party. Not a wise move at all, but then again Labour weren't putting themselves in a good light.

[AgnesIO]

So true. The Lib Dems should of kept to their words rather than let the Conservatives walk all over them. As far as I can tell, there are no Lib Dems, just a small Conservative party that merged with a larger Conservative party. Not a wise move at all, but then again Labour weren't putting themselves in a good light.

Totally agree - sadly I do not think the Lib Dems can. Lets be honest, how much control do they ACTUALLY have.


I love how you're swearing on the internet, get down to one and tell everyone what you think eh? I'm sure you'll get a nice reaction, just like the police who hit us all with batons whilst we were sat down got a pleasant reaction and hugs alround.

Swearing is hardly the worst thing in the world in modern Britain.

I am not arguing saying fees should rise - since it is ridiculous. But trashing and breaking things is just being a thug. And I will never agree with that.

Fair play in my opinion. As if the government are going to listen anyway. Clegg should've known full well the consequences of going back on his word. I only wish they did this yesterday when I was actually in London. Could have gone again today but seeing as how I am going to be in debt for the rest of my life better start saving now.


Protesting is fair play. Trashing things (which actually means the government need to get more money from some where, hmm) is pathetic.

[Minstrels]

The trashing and breaking of things is sparked when the police decide to hit people who are sat down with batons, then they get a firework to the face and cry.

[AgnesIO]

The trashing and breaking of things is sparked when the police decide to hit people who are sat down with batons, then they get a firework to the face and cry.

What a stupid comment. I look forward to when you get a firework in your face.

I am sure the police acted for the right reasons.

[FlyingJesus]

The trashing and breaking of things is sparked when the police decide to hit people who are sat down with batons, then they get a firework to the face and cry.

This is the most stupid thing I've seen today and shows why these protests get out of hand. Police do not hit out when there's no reason to, you absolutely cannot blame the vandalism and violence of these guys (most of whom probably aren't even students and just want to break things) on the myth of police brutality

[Minstrels]

I'm sure that students sat down are causing enough chaos to run in with batons.


This is the most stupid thing I've seen today and shows why these protests get out of hand. Police do not hit out when there's no reason to, you absolutely cannot blame the vandalism and violence of these guys (most of whom probably aren't even students and just want to break things) on the myth of police brutality
The myths of police violence? I see, I'm a tad confused how in your 20+ years of life (oh wise one of HxF, bow to the 20+ year old on HxF) you haven't come across the real police. But then again it is FJ and we all know about him eh?

[AgnesIO]

I'm sure that students sat down are causing enough chaos to run in with batons.


The myths of police violence? I see, I'm a tad confused how in your 20+ years of life (oh wise one of HxF, bow to the 20+ year old on HxF) you haven't come across the real police. But then again it is FJ and we all know about him eh?

Sorry I forgot. Police just go around beating people up for the sake of it.

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Edited by Dean (Trialist Forum Moderator): Please do not make comments that could cause arguments, thanks.

[Minstrels]

Sorry I forgot. Police just go around beating people up for the sake of it.

*REMOVED*
You really aren't exposed to the real world are you eh? Get yourself down to an away game at the football or to a protest like today. Look at the media, right now police are keeping students in without food or water. Surely that's going to anger students? They're corrupt, an ex-constable has even stated this to my face. It's a joke, an even bigger joke is the people who want to wrap themselves up in cotton wool and give it the "la la la la la la" treatment when they're being exposed to it all.

[FlyingJesus]

Know what about me :S and I haven't encountered the "real" police because anything I've done illegally hasn't been anything that affects anyone else and was in private. If you had fireworks as you seem to suggest then that's reason enough for them to suspect you of illegal activity of a potentially very dangerous kind, so you're hardly innocent if that was the case. If not then I still can't believe you did nothing at all if they attacked you, especially considering how little force was used even on those who were actually fighting and causing destruction

[Minstrels]

We were sat in the middle of a road, and given a five minute warning to move. Literally seconds after this five minute warning police stormed everyone and one officer hit atleast five females sat on the floor on the head with his metal baton coursing major head injuries. As I've stated already today, I'm not condoning injuring people at all and would hate to see anyone injured in this manor however with it being physically seconds after the 'big' man in the yellow jacket attacked atleast five females then theirs always that small sense of satisfaction to see the big man rolling around.

[Catzsy]

What a ******* **** head. He is so brave he has a scarf on his face.

Why do these ******s think trashing things is going to help?

**** off

Probably a member of a facist/anti-capitalist group who is not a student. Why are people so gullible just to think they are students becaus they are there?

[Dean]

Probably a member of a facist/anti-capitalist group who is not a student. Why are people so gullible just to think they are students becaus they are there?

You're correct Catzsy! The minority of these organised student protests are mostly non-student anarchists.

[GommeInc]

The trashing and breaking of things is sparked when the police decide to hit people who are sat down with batons, then they get a firework to the face and cry.
What teet brings fireworks to a protest? It's no wonder some students get treated like scum and the police are taking any action possible... It's a protest, not a riot - many students do not know the difference, it seems :/ That is, of course, assuming these vandals are students.

[Andys]

Most will strongly disagree with the violence in the protests and say it is not needed, but to be fair it is.
I'm not one for voilence and fighting, infact I don't really believe they should be being violent over this, but it's the only way the Government will consider listening. Yes, it's all fine having a song and dance about it, but really? The Government will not listen to that, and will just get on with their jobs, whereas these protests are turning heads and grabbing a lot of media attention, therefore it is more likely that the Government will listen.

[redtom]

Personally I think we should do more than just mess with a van, full on riots will make them change their minds.
Peaceful protests results in nothing, actions get a response.

[Jordy]

We were sat in the middle of a road, and given a five minute warning to move. Literally seconds after this five minute warning police stormed everyone and one officer hit atleast five females sat on the floor on the head with his metal baton coursing major head injuries. As I've stated already today, I'm not condoning injuring people at all and would hate to see anyone injured in this manor however with it being physically seconds after the 'big' man in the yellow jacket attacked atleast five females then theirs always that small sense of satisfaction to see the big man rolling around.Major head injuries? I assume she's in hospital then..? Or is it more likely he was tapping them and telling them to move. Whilst I somewhat agree there's probably corrupt policemen about (Although I've not encountered any), after the incident at the G20 Riots where a man died they are ridiculously careful. There are also police cameras and the media absolutely everywhere, all of it is recorded so nothing will of cracked off. And the people causing the trouble will find themselves arrested in the next few days and weeks. They've arrested 20 since the protest two weeks ago thanks to video evidence, and they'll be more to come :)

I can't help but think most the people involved are stupid, the working class will actually be given bigger grants thanks to this new scheme, it's the better off who will be paying more. They're just in there because they want to cause a fuss or because it's "Anti-Tory!", if they actually looked into things I doubt they'd still be protesting. Saw on the news some woman from Cambridge University (God knows how she got in there!) saying the protests were about all the government cuts. Is she completely stupid, as if the government can afford not to make cuts? Then she has a big go at the government for bailing out the banks, I'm sure if she'd of lost all her savings she wouldn't of been best pleased!

[Bun]

i find this whole thing hilarious. most of the liberal vote was composed from students, they won't be making that mistake again haha! also, see that guy who chucked a fire extinguisher off a roof in the first riot? what a bloody tramp.

[Inseriousity.]

see that guy who chucked a fire extinguisher off a roof in the first riot? what a bloody tramp.

with all that hair, thought it looked like Jamesy! aww I feel evil now you've called him a tramp! LOL

Anyway yeah while I can see why people think violence is the answer, it's not really. Sure it'll get people listening but they'll be listening to the wrong messages. For strikes/protests to work, you need public support and if you go smashing up police vans, breaking windows, you're never going to get support!

[Bun]

^ lmao i can see where you're coming from

[FlyingJesus]

Major head injuries? I assume she's in hospital then..?

I'd assume not seeing as how last I checked (and I did check for this specifically) there had only been 11 reports of civilians hospitalised for any reason


There are also police cameras and the media absolutely everywhere, all of it is recorded so nothing will of cracked off.

Good point about police cameras, my most recent interaction with police which was still like over a year ago was when a guy I was with had been spiked and was going mental at the police so they had to subdue him, but they were extremely careful not to do anything excessive and even mentioned that it was all going to be on tape somewhere if he did have any complaints the next day


I can't help but think most the people involved are stupid, the working class will actually be given bigger grants thanks to this new scheme, it's the better off who will be paying more.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of not having actually looked into the proposals until today when I saw about Clegg's speech mentioning how low earners will end up paying a lot less, but that was because I'm not a student at a campus uni and so don't pay tuition fees for my education at all. Anyway yeah it's basically looking like fees can go up a hell of a lot (although it's still down to unis to set the charges really..) but then you don't start paying back the loans until you're earning 21k+ as opposed to the 15k+ that you can currently earn before paying back your loans. As the "average" wage at the moment is around 25k and is brought upwards hugely by those with mega salaries I don't think it will really affect people that badly - and of course if you're earning over 21k a year after uni you're in a far far better position to start paying back loans and still live very comfortably


also, see that guy who chucked a fire extinguisher off a roof in the first riot? what a bloody tramp.

Yeah he had his trial today and pleaded guilty (obv) and sentencing to follow in a different court for some reason

[Moh]

Those who get violent and vandalise are only hindering the protest. If people are going to act that, it's really going to make the government lower tuition fees so that idiots like them can get in.

As for some of them being aggressive towards the police.. the government are cutting down on them, so they're as bad off as us.

[Conservative,]

I read the first page so sorry if I'm going over points people have said but I'm too lazy/tired to read the other 2 pages...

Anyway - in my opinion - this is NOT a Lib Dem Government. This is NOT a Tory Government. It is a COALITION. Both sides have had to scrap big promises they made.

If you were dumb enough to vote for them for the soul reason they promised free/lower tuition fees - how stupid are you? It's not feasible, it's not practical, and even if Lib Dems got in, it wouldn't have been voted through.

As far as I'm concerned - these people kicking up a fuss need to get their heads down and be quiet. Then at least the public will have sympathy. If you go around smashing cars, windows and generally acting like the public already perceives them to be, they will NOT support your cause. These students need to show that they are intelligent, diligent people who genuinely care about their education - not mindless hooligans who are out to cause chaos.

So as I said - both sides have had to make back-tracks, and this in my opinion is minor. It would never have been practical anyway and as I said, if you voted solely for this part of their plans you're stupid because voting due to one idea is like voting for the school councillor because he gave you free sweets. It may seem good while it lasts but as soon as it's finished you'll be disappointed and want your vote back.

[Stihl]

I read the first page so sorry if I'm going over points people have said but I'm too lazy/tired to read the other 2 pages...

what are the tuition fee's now? just out of curiosity? and what were they before?

[Moh]

I read the first page so sorry if I'm going over points people have said but I'm too lazy/tired to read the other 2 pages...

what are the tuition fee's now? just out of curiosity? and what were they before?
The cap is raising from £3,000 to £9,000.

Most universities won't even charge that much anyways.

[FlyingJesus]

Currently around £3.3k a year, going up to a maximum of £9k a year after 2012. Most places will however have a cap of about £6k as to go higher requires special grants and such which people seem unable to read all of a sudden, and the loan paybacks are having dramatic changes made to make it easier, so really it isn't affecting people that badly after all but people love to protest, especially our degenerate generation

[Conservative,]

I read the first page so sorry if I'm going over points people have said but I'm too lazy/tired to read the other 2 pages...

what are the tuition fee's now? just out of curiosity? and what were they before?

They're rising to a MAXIMUM of £9,000 a year (but the University has to offer schemes such as scolarships and pay packages to the poorer students), from £3,000, but most Uni's will not charge more than £6,000.

And currently you have to be earning £15k a year to pay back (I think), they're raising that to £21k.

[Neversoft]

In reply to that lovely rep you left me R0BB13G, you seem to have completely misunderstood what I said. Where in my post did I say Clegg and his party were in charge? No where. I stated Clegg should've known full well the consequences of going back on his word because he is the one who signed the pledge. Cameron didn't sign it, no one else made any promises concerning tuition fees, Clegg did. And let me ask you if it is so unrealistic then why did Clegg commit to it? He himself said that at the time he thought he could have put it into practice. Yes, it is a coalition, yes, things have to be sacrificed, but people have every right to be angry at Clegg for going back on his word. Of course it is going to be minor in your opinion, you're still in school. Come back in four years when tuition fees actually affect you. Oh and in case you're under some kind of assumption that I voted for the Lib Dems because of the tuition fee promise, you couldn't be more wrong. I voted UKIP.

[Stihl]

that is rather expensive, but it seems kinda normal to have a $18,000 (9k pounds) UNI fee over here? or so i've heard. I havnt really looked at anything to do with university's yet, only looked at colleges so far

[Conservative,]

In reply to that lovely rep you left me R0BB13G, you seem to have completed misunderstood what I said. Where in my post did I say Clegg and his party were in charge? No where. I stated Clegg should've known full well the consequences of going back on his word because he is the one who signed the pledge. Cameron didn't sign it, no one else made any promises concerning tuition fees, Clegg did. And let me ask you if it is so unrealistic then why did Clegg commit to it? He himself said that at the time he thought he could have put it into practice. Yes, it is a coalition, yes, things have to be sacrificed, but people have every right to be angry at Clegg for going back on his word. Of course it is going to be minor in your opinion, you're still in school. Come back in four years when tuition fees actually affect you. Oh and in case you're under some kind of assumption that I voted for the Lib Dems because of the tuition fee promise, you couldn't be more wrong. I voted UKIP.

I never said you voted Lib Dem, I said people who did for the sole reason of Uni fees going down/not going up are stupid because if they did their sums...how could we possibly afford it? Labour bankrupted the country, spending MORE money on higher education won't get us anywhere.

And yes, he made the pledge, fair enough, but pledges are thrown out the window when a coalition Government comes in. They are not working as Lib Dems, and it was a Lib Dem pledge. They are working in a coalition, and it is not a feasible pledge therefore it is going to get the cut.

No matter whether Clegg went in with Labour, Tories or somehow won the election - he would've realised that this wouldn't work. People need to be realistic and actually start reading, working out their own calculations than listen to the student unions who just want cheap tuition.

And actually I am thinking about tuition fees. I go to Uni in 4 years - they'll have risen by then, if not to £9,000 cap (with £6,000 for most) then probably higher, but I'm not complaining because Lib Dems have to sacrifics things, the Conservatives have to sacrifice things and people who moan about tax rises, cuts or anything like that are just ignorant for believing that the country can go without the extra money - we're in some ridiculous amount of debt, over £100bil as far as I'm aware, and we're not going to get out of it by spending more money on tertiary education.


PLUS...These costs are nothing compared to places like America. It's (depending on the Uni) £10-20k per year, so when people are moaning about a small rise up to £6k then they should shut up and realise how lucky they are that they're not living in a country where it costs two, three, four or five times that.

[Robbie]

In reply to that lovely rep you left me R0BB13G, you seem to have completely misunderstood what I said. Where in my post did I say Clegg and his party were in charge? No where. I stated Clegg should've known full well the consequences of going back on his word because he is the one who signed the pledge. Cameron didn't sign it, no one else made any promises concerning tuition fees, Clegg did. And let me ask you if it is so unrealistic then why did Clegg commit to it? He himself said that at the time he thought he could have put it into practice. Yes, it is a coalition, yes, things have to be sacrificed, but people have every right to be angry at Clegg for going back on his word. Of course it is going to be minor in your opinion, you're still in school. Come back in four years when tuition fees actually affect you. Oh and in case you're under some kind of assumption that I voted for the Lib Dems because of the tuition fee promise, you couldn't be more wrong. I voted UKIP.

Don't worry, he loves leaving pointless -rep. Left it for me and a few others because we disagree with him on things.

[Neversoft]

I never said you voted Lib Dem, I said people who did for the sole reason of Uni fees going down/not going up are stupid because if they did their sums...how could we possibly afford it? Labour bankrupted the country, spending MORE money on higher education won't get us anywhere.

And yes, he made the pledge, fair enough, but pledges are thrown out the window when a coalition Government comes in. They are not working as Lib Dems, and it was a Lib Dem pledge. They are working in a coalition, and it is not a feasible pledge therefore it is going to get the cut.

No matter whether Clegg went in with Labour, Tories or somehow won the election - he would've realised that this wouldn't work. People need to be realistic and actually start reading, working out their own calculations than listen to the student unions who just want cheap tuition.

And actually I am thinking about tuition fees. I go to Uni in 4 years - they'll have risen by then, if not to £9,000 cap (with £6,000 for most) then probably higher, but I'm not complaining because Lib Dems have to sacrifics things, the Conservatives have to sacrifice things and people who moan about tax rises, cuts or anything like that are just ignorant for believing that the country can go without the extra money - we're in some ridiculous amount of debt, over £100bil as far as I'm aware, and we're not going to get out of it by spending more money on tertiary education.


PLUS...These costs are nothing compared to places like America. It's (depending on the Uni) £10-20k per year, so when people are moaning about a small rise up to £6k then they should shut up and realise how lucky they are that they're not living in a country where it costs two, three, four or five times that.

Oh sorry, I didn't know you were Clegg's right hand man and knew exactly what he would have done in every given circumstance. Your assumptions are absurd, stop making them. The simple fact is that Clegg, knowing full well a coalition could be the result of the election, made a promise he thought to be realistic and later went back on his word, causing people (quite rightly) to be angry. If you can't wrap your head around that then God help you. Oh and I don't know how filthy rich you are, but for most students a rise to £6,000 is not small.

[Conservative,]

Oh sorry, I didn't know you were Clegg's right hand man and knew exactly what he would have done in every given circumstance. Your assumptions are absurd, stop making them. The simple fact is that Clegg, knowing full well a coalition could be the result of the election, made a promise he thought to be realistic and later went back on his word, causing people (quite rightly) to be angry. If you can't wrap your head around that then God help you. Oh and I don't know how filthy rich you are, but for most students a rise to £6,000 is not small.

I'm in no way rich, and yes I'm making assumptions, but I am using common sense? Surely everyone with a bit of common sense can understand it's not practical and ok, maybe he did make it knowing there would be a coalition, but even so people causing chaos will not help - they'll just lose public sympathy.

And as I said £6k or £10-20k? I know what I'd rather pay - think yourself lucky you're not in America or somewhere else. Our tuition fees are some of the lowest in the world, and will remain so even with this increase. People should really stop fussing and understand that.

[Rapidshare]

Idiots, congrats too all students who decided to smash up things. I now have to pay my taxes for this ****.

[Neversoft]

I'm in no way rich, and yes I'm making assumptions, but I am using common sense? Surely everyone with a bit of common sense can understand it's not practical and ok, maybe he did make it knowing there would be a coalition, but even so people causing chaos will not help - they'll just lose public sympathy.

And as I said £6k or £10-20k? I know what I'd rather pay - think yourself lucky you're not in America or somewhere else. Our tuition fees are some of the lowest in the world, and will remain so even with this increase. People should really stop fussing and understand that.

It is completely debatable whether it is practical or not, you are being incredibly ignorant. I don't know anything about the system in America, but I am sure circumstances and such are entirely different over there. Even if our fees are low compared to a lot of other countries, they are going to triple to what they used to be and there was a time tuition fees didn't exist. If this isn't a matter fussing over then quite franky, what is?

[Conservative,]

It is completely debatable whether it is practical or not, you are being incredibly ignorant. I don't know anything about the system in America, but I am sure circumstances and such are entirely different over there. Even if our fees are low compared to a lot of other countries, they are going to triple to what they used to be and there was a time tuition fees didn't exist. If this isn't a matter fussing over then quite franky, what is?


If this isn't a matter fussing over then quite franky, what is? Well...

Scrapping the NHS. Wasteful spending and world war 3. Any of those I would make a fuss about. A small rise in tuition fees are nothing to smash police cars up about.

[-paul.]

I went to one today where i live. There was no violence - just people wanting a future.

[Rapidshare]

We talking about the one in london tbh.

[Dean]

If this isn't a matter fussing over then quite franky, what is? Well...

Scrapping the NHS. Wasteful spending and world war 3. Any of those I would make a fuss about. A small rise in tuition fees are nothing to smash police cars up about.

It's not just about tuition fees though, it's about the fact that the government are going to cut spending in education and scrap EMA. Personally, I rely on EMA to pay for my train fare each month but if that goes, I'm not sure what will happen. Also, I don't believe "small" is the word for the rise in tuition fees!

[Conservative,]

It's not just about tuition fees though, it's about the fact that the government are going to cut spending in education and scrap EMA. Personally, I rely on EMA to pay for my train fare each month but if that goes, I'm not sure what will happen. Also, I don't believe "small" is the word for the rise in tuition fees!

I haven't heard about this EMA but as I've said again and again it is small compared to nearly every other country in the world. If people looked into the real world and took a look theyd realise £6k is not that much to pay for tuition in relativity to the prices world wide.

[Neversoft]

I haven't heard about this EMA but as I've said again and again it is small compared to nearly every other country in the world. If people looked into the real world and took a look theyd realise £6k is not that much to pay for tuition in relativity to the prices world wide.

You don't get it. Yes, it isn't much compared to what some other countries pay but it is a lot to us.

[Dean]

I haven't heard about this EMA but as I've said again and again it is small compared to nearly every other country in the world. If people looked into the real world and took a look theyd realise £6k is not that much to pay for tuition in relativity to the prices world wide.

The way I look at it, if I went to uni now, I'd pay around 3k for a year. The course I'd do would typically be 3 years, so 9k for my time at uni, then you have to think about accommodation fees.

If I went to uni in 2 years time, I'd pay around 6-9k for a year. Again, 3 years of uni, so 18k-27k.

You see the huge difference? I'd much much rather be 9k in debt rather than 18k or even 27k!

EMA is being scrapped, it's confirmed by the government.


EMA to close to new applicants
EMA will close to new applicants in England from January 2011. Learner support funds will be available through schools, colleges and training providers to help students who most need it to continue in learning. If you currently get EMA you will continue to receive it for the rest of this academic year, but you will not receive it next academic year

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/EducationAndLearning/14To19/MoneyToLearn/EMA/index.htm

[Conservative,]

You don't get it. Yes, it isn't much compared to what some other countries pay but it is a lot to us.

We're too used to getting stuff for free. Maybe I should take back on what I said about getting rid of the NHS. Too many people depend on our welfare state. I prefer the American way - everything is privatized, you pay for everything, if you can't afford it sucks for you.

I hate how people are ignorant to the fact that people around the world face tuition fees several times greater than theirs yet they moan about an increase. It's not that much. I'm not rich - I will be taking out a student loan like everyone else here, but I have the common sense to realise, I'm ******* lucky to be able to go to University over here because it's so much cheaper than America or somewhere like that.

It may seem a lot to you - but what about paying £50k a year for Uni like in America? Now you realise it's not that much eh? Really - people need to learn that the welfare state is so beneficial to them - they take it for granted and protest about every minor change they don't like. They need to grow up and take some set backs. Because we're not made of money, this country is in so much debt it's unreal thanks to Labour. If Clegg goes back on his promises I really don't care if he gets the job of sorting out our economy done. So what if tuition fees rise. The whole point of my arguement is we're lucky to have them so low in the first place - if they were at £9k already and were going to go up, then yes, protest - that is excessive, but at £3k going up to (for the majority) £6k - there is nothing to protest about. Oh boo hoo, £9k extra of debt, how about £60k, £90k or £150k?

[FlyingJesus]

If I went to uni in 2 years time, I'd pay around 6-9k for a year. Again, 3 years of uni, so 18k-27k.

Not unless your parents are big earners, which as you're getting EMA I'm guessing isn't the case. You would be paying 3-6k as the only unis that will have 9k top fees will be forced to give huge handouts to the poorer (monetarily of course, not academically :P) students which about balance it anyway

[Dean]

We're too used to getting stuff for free. Maybe I should take back on what I said about getting rid of the NHS. Too many people depend on our welfare state. I prefer the American way - everything is privatized, you pay for everything, if you can't afford it sucks for you.

I hate how people are ignorant to the fact that people around the world face tuition fees several times greater than theirs yet they moan about an increase. It's not that much. I'm not rich - I will be taking out a student loan like everyone else here, but I have the common sense to realise, I'm ******* lucky to be able to go to University over here because it's so much cheaper than America or somewhere like that.

It may seem a lot to you - but what about paying £50k a year for Uni like in America? Now you realise it's not that much eh? Really - people need to learn that the welfare state is so beneficial to them - they take it for granted and protest about every minor change they don't like. They need to grow up and take some set backs. Because we're not made of money, this country is in so much debt it's unreal thanks to Labour. If Clegg goes back on his promises I really don't care if he gets the job of sorting out our economy done. So what if tuition fees rise. The whole point of my arguement is we're lucky to have them so low in the first place - if they were at £9k already and were going to go up, then yes, protest - that is excessive, but at £3k going up to (for the majority) £6k - there is nothing to protest about. Oh boo hoo, £9k extra of debt, how about £60k, £90k or £150k?

£9k extra of debt is an absolutely huge amount for a person like myself. Unfortunately, since I no longer have a father, our household income is looking pretty crap (and I don't mean that lightly).

[Conservative,]

£9k extra of debt is an absolutely huge amount for a person like myself. Unfortunately, since I no longer have a father, our household income is looking pretty crap (and I don't mean that lightly).

You don't have to pay it off if you earn less than £21k a year though? So if your mother doesn't earn much (sorry to hear about your father), and you decide to go into a line of work that doesn't pay that much - you don't have to pay it off.

[FlyingJesus]

You don't have to pay it off if you earn less than £21k a year though? So if your mother doesn't earn much (sorry to hear about your father), and you decide to go into a line of work that doesn't pay that much - you don't have to pay it off.

Not strictly true - the loans you don't have to pay off until you're earning that much, but unless we give the banks another huge boost which isn't going to be popular then student loans won't increase proportionately I'd have thought

Check me out fighting on both sides

[Dean]

You don't have to pay it off if you earn less than £21k a year though? So if your mother doesn't earn much (sorry to hear about your father), and you decide to go into a line of work that doesn't pay that much - you don't have to pay it off.

What happens if I never ever manage to get a decent job that pays more than 21k? What happens if I DO manage to get a job that DOES pay more than 21k? Will I be better off earning less than 21k due to the amount of fees I'll have to pay back?

[FlyingJesus]

What happens if I never ever manage to get a decent job that pays more than 21k?

You never pay back the loans


What happens if I DO manage to get a job that DOES pay more than 21k?

Then you will have to begin repayments on the loans, which should be pretty easy if you're earning 21k


Will I be better off earning less than 21k due to the amount of fees I'll have to pay back?

Not likely unless you plan on living a very short while

[Dean]

You never pay back the loans



Then you will have to begin repayments on the loans, which should be pretty easy if you're earning 21k



Not likely unless you plan on living a very short while

I have met a lot of people around the age of 23-24 and they say that uni was a waste of time, merely because their degree isn't worth anything. They're employed in supermarkets and can't manage to find jobs and live with lots of debt. This is what worries me about uni tbh, especially if fees are due to rise.

[Conservative,]

You never pay back the loans



Then you will have to begin repayments on the loans, which should be pretty easy if you're earning 21k



Not likely unless you plan on living a very short while

What he said basically.

If you don't earn 21k you don't pay them back simple. And if you are earning 21k it's not that hard to pay them back, there is a minimum payback per month but I think it's fairly low so really there is no reason for people to not try and get a decent job purely because they're scared they won't be able to pay back their loans.

[The Don]

We're too used to getting stuff for free. Maybe I should take back on what I said about getting rid of the NHS. Too many people depend on our welfare state. I prefer the American way - everything is privatized, you pay for everything, if you can't afford it sucks for you.

I hate how people are ignorant to the fact that people around the world face tuition fees several times greater than theirs yet they moan about an increase. It's not that much. I'm not rich - I will be taking out a student loan like everyone else here, but I have the common sense to realise, I'm ******* lucky to be able to go to University over here because it's so much cheaper than America or somewhere like that.

It may seem a lot to you - but what about paying £50k a year for Uni like in America? Now you realise it's not that much eh? Really - people need to learn that the welfare state is so beneficial to them - they take it for granted and protest about every minor change they don't like. They need to grow up and take some set backs. Because we're not made of money, this country is in so much debt it's unreal thanks to Labour. If Clegg goes back on his promises I really don't care if he gets the job of sorting out our economy done. So what if tuition fees rise. The whole point of my arguement is we're lucky to have them so low in the first place - if they were at £9k already and were going to go up, then yes, protest - that is excessive, but at £3k going up to (for the majority) £6k - there is nothing to protest about. Oh boo hoo, £9k extra of debt, how about £60k, £90k or £150k?

Sorry, what? I thought you had a disability and rely on the nhs? Hypocrit much. It's not the fact it's only 9k extra debt, it's the fact that it's rising when nick clegg said he would support further education.

And it is a big deal robbie, it's double/trippled from what it use to be, that will stop a lot of people going to university and missing out on higher education meaning we will only have wealthy people going to university or people willing to get themselves into debt.

[Conservative,]

Sorry, what? I thought you had a disability and rely on the nhs? Hypocrit much. It's not the fact it's only 9k extra debt, it's the fact that it's rising when nick clegg said he would support further education.

And it is a big deal robbie, it's double/trippled from what it use to be, that will stop a lot of people going to university and missing out on higher education meaning we will only have wealthy people going to university or people willing to get themselves into debt.

yeah I have a wheelchair, and I do depend on the NHS to buy my drugs for me (not that it would cost a lot tbh...) but anyway...

The cap will be at £9k and it's not even there till 2012...and I doubt they'll raise it much higher if at all. It may have doubled/tripled but as I've said time and again, it has to double several times over before coming CLOSE to international prices.

[Jordy]

yeah I have a wheelchair, and I do depend on the NHS to buy my drugs for me (not that it would cost a lot tbh...) but anyway...

The cap will be at £9k and it's not even there till 2012...and I doubt they'll raise it much higher if at all. It may have doubled/tripled but as I've said time and again, it has to double several times over before coming CLOSE to international prices.I think you'd be surprised how much everything costs in private healthcare, if you look across the pond or even in the UKs private hospitals, everything costs a lot.


Sorry, what? I thought you had a disability and rely on the nhs? Hypocrit much. It's not the fact it's only 9k extra debt, it's the fact that it's rising when nick clegg said he would support further education.

And it is a big deal robbie, it's double/trippled from what it use to be, that will stop a lot of people going to university and missing out on higher education meaning we will only have wealthy people going to university or people willing to get themselves into debt.Didn't he have a pro-labour signature a few weeks back too or am I thinking of someone else?

I've also always been under the impression if you haven't paid back your student loan by 35 it's cancelled out, might be wrong there though.
Edit: Turns out I've got that wrong, it's 25 years after you took it out that it's wiped. Explained; http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/loans/student-loans-repay#when

[FlyingJesus]

I have met a lot of people around the age of 23-24 and they say that uni was a waste of time, merely because their degree isn't worth anything. They're employed in supermarkets and can't manage to find jobs and live with lots of debt. This is what worries me about uni tbh, especially if fees are due to rise.

Yeah that is the way it's gone unfortunately, which is part of the reason I chose to study from home rather than go to a campus uni - if it ends up a waste of my time at least I'll just have a degree floating about doing nothing instead of a mound of debt to go with it. Like I say though, with this proposal you don't have to pay anything back at all until you earn over £21k a year, so if you do get stuck in a dead end job you don't technically have the debt :P


that will stop a lot of people going to university and missing out on higher education

Thereby likely creating a huge number of apprentice/skilled tradesmen and massively increasing our export value as a country while at the same time increasing the value of degrees to the level of esteem they ought to be held in, good point

[Rapidshare]

If you earn over 21 grand a year, Im sure you be fine paying your debt, plus you gotta remember that you pay it in small amount as well. I dont see why people are getting really pissy. Yeh I can understand it a shock that it tripled but my ******* god, you dont have to trash london.

[Conservative,]

I think you'd be surprised how much everything costs in private healthcare, if you look across the pond or even in the UKs private hospitals, everything costs a lot.

Didn't he have a pro-labour signature a few weeks back too or am I thinking of someone else?

I've also always been under the impression if you haven't paid back your student loan by 35 it's cancelled out, might be wrong there though.

It was a joke signature because it also said I loved Chelsea and man u..aha not Gunna happen :)

And yes flyingjesus has pretty much said what u want to say lol.

[Dean]

I understand that if I never manage to reach a salary of 21k+ then in reality, I don't have debt, but it still ponders on your mind.

Does anyone know how much you have to pay back every say month or so to pay back your fees?

[Jordy]

I understand that if I never manage to reach a salary of 21k+ then in reality, I don't have debt, but it still ponders on your mind.

Does anyone know how much you have to pay back every say month or so to pay back your fees?A small percentage is taken out your salary each month once you reach the £15k threshold, optionally you can pay back more if you have the additional money to but there's no rush to pay it back as the interest rate is very low.

[GommeInc]

Most will strongly disagree with the violence in the protests and say it is not needed, but to be fair it is.
I'm not one for voilence and fighting, infact I don't really believe they should be being violent over this, but it's the only way the Government will consider listening. Yes, it's all fine having a song and dance about it, but really? The Government will not listen to that, and will just get on with their jobs, whereas these protests are turning heads and grabbing a lot of media attention, therefore it is more likely that the Government will listen.
Appears to of done nothing so far. Heck, the one before which caused more pointless damage did nothing and they've not changed their mind. Any interview with a Lib Dem MP has revealed they're sticking with the Conservatives.

Although we do not pay as much for University as with other countries, the Liberal Democrats did promose there would be no major changes to the tuition fees which you could say is why they did so well in the polls. If they promised, you cannot blame people for complaining. I think it was Ian Hislop that said the Lib Dems promised this and when the votes were in they must of gone "Ha! ... Oh crap, we're in office :S" If there were no promises involved, then the protests wouldn't have much to argue with. It's why there are such problems.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well now you all know not to vote for the Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats.. and what about Labour? in 2001 they promised they would not introduce tuition fees and did exactly that - you vote for liars and you will get lies, don't make the same mistake again.

[AgnesIO]

Well now you all know not to vote for the Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats.. and what about Labour? in 2001 they promised they would not introduce tuition fees and did exactly that - you vote for liars and you will get lies, don't make the same mistake again.

Who the **** do you suggest we vote for?

UKIP who we can't trust, as they have done nothing to be trusted for - only things that have made them untrustworhy.

BNP who are racists

But fortnuately we have a pirate bay party. Let's give power to them.

[Conservative,]

Who the **** do you suggest we vote for?

UKIP who we can't trust, as they have done nothing to be trusted for - only things that have made them untrustworhy.

BNP who are racists

But fortnuately we have a pirate bay party. Let's give power to them.

Na I say the Monster Raving Loony Party...at least they'll appreciate our votes.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Who the **** do you suggest we vote for?

UKIP who we can't trust, as they have done nothing to be trusted for - only things that have made them untrustworhy.

BNP who are racists

But fortnuately we have a pirate bay party. Let's give power to them.

What about the biggest voting group which is 'none of the above'?

Besides, what has made UKIP untrustworthy exactly?

[AgnesIO]

Na I say the Monster Raving Loony Party...at least they'll appreciate our votes.

Good idea.


What about the biggest voting group which is 'none of the above'?

Besides, what has made UKIP untrustworthy exactly?

Weren't some of their members part of the expenses thing? I don't trust many parties, UKIP included.

But who do you suggest are the party that would do best in power then?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Good idea.

Weren't some of their members part of the expenses thing? I don't trust many parties, UKIP included.

But who do you suggest are the party that would do best in power then?

UKIP weren't involved in expenses no, Tom Wise was a former UKIP MEP who was involved in fraud - and the party booted him out as soon as it was discovered he'd been cooking the books, Farage went to court to give evidence against him aswell. UKIP of course, and if they turned out to be liars/corrupt then at least i'd be genuinely suprised and i'd know not to vote for them again. But what i'm getting at is when people vote for the Lib/Lab/Con over and over again when they are bare faced liars with hardly any beliefs then it just takes the biscuit. Again i'll repeat; you vote for liars and you shall get for liars.

General elections concerning the main three parties are mere unpopularity contests, where all three options are unpopular so people hold their nose and vote for (in their opinion) the least worst party - that has to end and shows signs of ending, as membership of the main three has been plummeting.

[Conservative,]

UKIP weren't involved in expenses no, Tom Wise was a former UKIP MEP who was involved in fraud - and the party booted him out as soon as it was discovered he'd been cooking the books, Farage went to court to give evidence against him aswell.

UKIP of course, and if they turned out to be liars/corrupt then at least i'd be genuinely suprised and i'd know not to vote for them again. But what i'm getting at is when people vote for the Lib/Lab/Con over and over again when they are bare faced liars with hardly any beliefs then it just takes the biscuit.

It is ironic how everyone complains about Lib/Lab/Con all the time but then vote for them again. At least I know who I'm committed to and will not be changing my opinion any time soon.

[FlyingJesus]

It is ironic how everyone complains about Lib/Lab/Con all the time but then vote for them again. At least I know who I'm committed to and will not be changing my opinion any time soon.

Yeah but you can't vote any time soon either lol

[Conservative,]

Yeah but you can't vote any time soon either lol

3 years and 4 months :P

[Andeeh]

I was at the one in Brighton yesterday after finished filming media early, was pretty mental. We was just about to leave when we became boxed in by the police who made us walk on to the coast road and blocking up all the traffic, nearly causing my mate to be run over by a ***** in a van who purposely swerved at him. Felt a tad sorry for the police but my God this government are a bunch of idiots.

[Conservative,]

I was at the one in Brighton yesterday after finished filming media early, was pretty mental. We was just about to leave when we became boxed in by the police who made us walk on to the coast road and blocking up all the traffic, nearly causing my mate to be run over by a ***** in a van who purposely swerved at him. Felt a tad sorry for the police but my God this government are a bunch of idiots.

So you'd rather have labour who brought in tuition fees in the first place....OK then.

[MrPinkPanther]

UKIP Leaders EU expenses:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/24/mps-expenses-ukip-nigel-farage

I'm gonna keep posting this Dan until you admit that he was wrong. He's hired his wife and claimed £2 Million in order to fuel his political agenda, how is that ok?

[-:Undertaker:-]

UKIP Leaders EU expenses:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/24/mps-expenses-ukip-nigel-farage

I'm gonna keep posting this Dan until you admit that he was wrong. He's hired his wife and claimed £2 Million in order to fuel his political agenda, how is that ok?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4lmuLI81SU

Firstly, thats allowances - different from expenses as Farage explains above. The allowances are used to run a regional office.

In terms of hiring your wife - so? i've never ever slammed any politician from any party for hiring family members. If Mrs Farage was found to be doing no work and they were fixing it for personal gain then you might have a point, but until then its just grasping at straws.

[FlyingJesus]

Hiring his wife is not a problem, I quite agree. If she's doing a good job of it and the situation was available, that might be a convenient exploit but a perfectly legitimate one. What isn't legitimate is using EU tax money to fund anti-EU propaganda and suggest that that's part of his job whilst condemning the EU for taking our money. If he really thought that we shouldn't be giving our money out to them he could have used his entire expenses allowance to give back to the taxpayers directly, that would not only be a far stronger message to the EU but also would have gained him huge popularity rather than scandal

[-:Undertaker:-]

Hiring his wife is not a problem, I quite agree. If she's doing a good job of it and the situation was available, that might be a convenient exploit but a perfectly legitimate one. What isn't legitimate is using EU tax money to fund anti-EU propaganda and suggest that that's part of his job whilst condemning the EU for taking our money. If he really thought that we shouldn't be giving our money out to them he could have used his entire expenses allowance to give back to the taxpayers directly, that would not only be a far stronger message to the EU but also would have gained him huge popularity rather than scandal

All UKIP MEPs slice of a margin of their wages and put it into the party funds, again its a different system and down to them in regards to their set wages (not expenses which were abused in the Westminister system). All regional offices are there for consituents and running them offices is funded via the allowances system - to echo Farage in the video above, i'd rather they were all sacked from their jobs tommorow and we left the EU.

[FlyingJesus]

Gonna be honest that has bollock all to do with what I said. I wasn't suggesting that they should put more into the party funds, in fact I said quite the opposite in that I don't believe that putting £2m of our money into advertising his views is "for the best of causes" as he says.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Gonna be honest that has bollock all to do with what I said. I wasn't suggesting that they should put more into the party funds, in fact I said quite the opposite in that I don't believe that putting £2m of our money into advertising his views is "for the best of causes" as he says.

No but your talking about allowances there, its the wages which go to the party funds. The allowances are used on the running of the regional office.

[FlyingJesus]

I'm not talking about what's meant to go to party funds, I'm talking about the allowances and expenses that he claimed in order to promote his party which I classify as general party funds rather than a withdrawal necessary for running an office

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm not talking about what's meant to go to party funds, I'm talking about the allowances and expenses that he claimed in order to promote his party which I classify as general party funds rather than a withdrawal necessary for running an office

But thats part of running the regional office, leaflets etc - local partys do it aswell.