Transsexual's fight for implants lands taxpayer with £18,000 bill

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1343025/Transsexuals-fight-implants-lands-taxpayer-18-000.html

Transsexual's fight for implants lands taxpayer with £18,000 bill


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/31/article-1343025-0C9CCE6F000005DC-960_468x586.jpg




A transsexual has won the right to have £8,000 breast implants – following a battle funded by £10,000 of legal aid. Miranda Lee, 40, had gender realignment surgery costing £60,000 in 2009, paid for with NHS money. The process was due to be completed with the breast augmentation, but she was then told the money would not be made available. Miss Lee, who complained that she had been left ‘half man, half woman’, attempted suicide and has been on anti-depressants. She decided to fight the decision and was granted legal aid in June.

Her case was heard by an NHS review panel last month, and it has now ruled in her favour. The charity shop worker, from Southend, Essex, said she was delighted at the U-turn but wanted compensation for the stress of her ‘inhumane and insensitive’ treatment. ‘The way my case was handled was appalling,’ she said. ‘These people haven’t a care in the world about people. It’s all about money to them.’ Miss Lee, born Raymond Harwood, first felt she was the wrong sex when she was 16 but went on to marry three times and have two children.

Her last marriage ended in 2000 and in 2005 she went to her GP about gender realignment. She began living as a woman in 2007 and had a series of operations at Charing Cross Hospital in London from July 2009, including having her male genitalia removed and her voice altered. She was already receiving hormone therapy in the form of oestrogen to help her develop breasts but this was not working, meaning she needed implants.

This is absolutely ridiculous, paying for this man to grossly disfigure himself to satisfy some sort of mental issue he must have - if he wants to cut, change or chop his bits off then let him at his own expense and not at the taxpayers expense thank you very much. And even if you do agree with sex changes, they should be done private and not on the nose of the taxpayer.

The NHS drugs/treatments panel, ironically called NICE has sent many people away who are dying having refused them life extending drugs/treatments on the grounds of costs.. yet we have ridiculous scenarios such as this one.


So we'll pay for this and deny cancer treatment - disgusting.

Thoughts?

[HotelUser]

It's not her fault and it's a real disorder. If she's miserable as she was (and she seems to be because they say they were left half man and woman) and this surgery helped fix her disorder than I don't mind.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It's not her fault and it's a real disorder. If she's miserable as she was (and she seems to be because they say they were left half man and woman) and this surgery helped fix her disorder than I don't mind.

So does this apply to all flat-chested women aswell then? why should we pay for somebody to enchance/fiddle around with their body parts when people are dying having been denied cancer treatments on the NHS? would you mind if somebody who was terminally ill in your family was denied life-extending drugs on the grounds of cost while people are having breast implants put in due to 'depression'? (which is a very vague term)

I somehow don't think you would.

[Technologic]

The ethics of medicine seem to be something you really dont understand

[Catzsy]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1343025/Transsexuals-fight-implants-lands-taxpayer-18-000.html

Transsexual's fight for implants lands taxpayer with £18,000 bill


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/31/article-1343025-0C9CCE6F000005DC-960_468x586.jpg





This is absolutely ridiculous, paying for this man to grossly disfigure himself to satisfy some sort of mental issue he must have - if he wants to cut, change or chop his bits off then let him at his own expense and not at the taxpayers expense thank you very much. And even if you do agree with sex changes, they should be done private and not on the nose of the taxpayer.

The NHS drugs/treatments panel, ironically called NICE has sent many people away who are dying having refused them life extending drugs/treatments on the grounds of costs.. yet we have ridiculous scenarios such as this one.


So we'll pay for this and deny cancer treatment - disgusting.

Thoughts?

I am assuming Dan, the part is bold you are referring to her attempt at suicide rather than the fact she is mental?

As far as the article goes if someone was physically disfigured then they would get help on the NHS. It follows on then that if it is is proven that there is a necessary need for these operations by doctors and consultants then it should be paid as well.

[Suspective]

Absolutely disgraceful.

The money the NHS wasted, on this man's implants could of been spent on somebody's lifesaving cancer treatment. There is always stories, about victims of cancer who are denied the right to life saving drugs. Now we know where all the money is being wasted, on some man's cosmetic surgery.

So guys... if you live in Essex, and somebody you know has cancer and is denied access to life saving drugs. You know where the money's been wasted :P

[-:Undertaker:-]

The ethics of medicine seem to be something you really dont understand

So let me put this to you as cases like this will most probably exist; i'm genuinely depressed because I think i'm ugly and I want to look like Zac Efron, i've attempted suicide numerous times - do you think I should be given cosmetic surgery to quell my 'depression'? or on the other hand and taking the more common sense approach, should I instead be given metal help to combat these problems?

The ethics of common sense and reality are something you are lacking in.


I am assuming Dan, the part is bold you are referring to her attempt at suicide rather than the fact she is mental?

As far as the article goes if someone was physically disfigured then they would get help on the NHS. It follows on then that if it is is proven that there is a necessary need for these operations by doctors and consultants then it should be paid as well.

The part in bold is my opinion (and its scientific fact) that its impossible to change your sexual identity just as it would be impossible for me to change my real hair colour from black to red, and yes I do think there are mental issues with people who feel they are the 'wrong sex'.

If I felt I was born with the wrong hair colour and obessed/attempted suicide over it, you'd quite rightly think I wasn't all there in the head.

[Shar]

Absolutely disgraceful.

The money the NHS wasted, on this man's implants could of been spent on somebody's lifesaving cancer treatment. There is always stories, about victims of cancer who are denied the right to life saving drugs. Now we know where all the money is being wasted, on some man's cosmetic surgery.

So guys... if you live in Essex, and want a vital surgery being carried out. You know where the money's been wasted :P

This. Its horrific that so much money would be spent on this, where it could have been spent on a cancer treatment or lifesaving surgery.

[HotelUser]

So does this apply to all flat-chested women aswell then? why should we pay for somebody to enchance/fiddle around with their body parts when people are dying having been denied cancer treatments on the NHS? would you mind if somebody who was terminally ill in your family was denied life-extending drugs on the grounds of cost while people are having breast implants put in due to 'depression'? (which is a very vague term)

I somehow don't think you would.

If they're depressed and miserable being the gender they are and petty cash can solve all their problems and make them happy then I don't mind. There's not that much tax payer's money spent on gender reassignments as opposed to how much is spent on lazy fools leeching off the government for financial survival.

[Suspective]

They can use their own money, for their cosmetic surgery though. It isn't life saving. £60,000 has already been wasted. The NHS is in a huge debt.

The money which has been used, could of been put towards hospital improvements or put on a cancer sufferer's medicine.

[Shar]

If they're depressed and miserable being the gender they are and petty cash can solve all their problems and make them happy then I don't mind. There's not that much tax payer's money spent on gender reassignments as opposed to how much is spent on lazy fools leeching off the government for financial survival.

But how do you know it will make them happy? What if they spend all of that money that could be used on cancer treatment and it was all for nothing?

[Technologic]

So let me put this to you as cases like this will most probably exist; i'm genuinely depressed because I think i'm ugly and I want to look like Zac Efron, i've attempted suicide numerous times - do you think I should be given cosmetic surgery to quell my 'depression'? or on the other hand and taking the more common sense approach, should I instead be given metal help to combat these problems?

The ethics of common sense and reality are something you are lacking in.
Well obviously each patient is individual, some respond to counselling well whereas others don't. Yes it may seem ludicrous to pay for this gender reassignment to some but to blindly deny it is completely wrong. The NHS dont just blindly carry out operations like this, various panels of professionals who understand the issues behind decide what the best course of action is. Interestingly this was one of the topics we discussed a few weeks ago in my medical ethics class....

[-:Undertaker:-]

If they're depressed and miserable being the gender they are and petty cash can solve all their problems and make them happy then I don't mind. There's not that much tax payer's money spent on gender reassignments as opposed to how much is spent on lazy fools leeching off the government for financial survival.

So if I felt I needed a nice set of new teeth you'd be happy funding that for me would you? similarly, if you had terminal cancer and were denied treatment on the grounds of cost (which to you is mere 'petty cash') would you approve of this then?


Well obviously each patient is individual, some respond to counselling well whereas others don't. Yes it may seem ludicrous to pay for this gender reassignment to some but to blindly deny it is completely wrong. The NHS dont just blindly carry out operations like this, various panels of professionals who understand the issues behind decide what the best course of action is. Interestingly this was one of the topics we discussed a few weeks ago in my medical ethics class....

So if I didn't respond to councselling you'd be happy to give me a comestic makeover to look liek Zac Efron would you? the better question to ask yourself is, would you be happy paying for this type of surgery for somebody else out of your own money because afterall, its easy to spend somebody elses money (that of the taxpayer).

And yes the experts, the same experts & professionals who predicted a mini-ice age in the 1980s, the same experts & professionals who predicted worldwide death with SARS and swine flu.. the list goes on and on.

[Catzsy]

So let me put this to you as cases like this will most probably exist; i'm genuinely depressed because I think i'm ugly and I want to look like Zac Efron, i've attempted suicide numerous times - do you think I should be given cosmetic surgery to quell my 'depression'? or on the other hand and taking the more common sense approach, should I instead be given metal help to combat these problems?

The ethics of common sense and reality are something you are lacking in.



The part in bold is my opinion (and its scientific fact) that its impossible to change your sexual identity just as it would be impossible for me to change my real hair colour from black to red, and yes I do think there are mental issues with people who feel they are the 'wrong sex'.

Well I find that a pretty inappropriate thing to say. Can you post your scientific evidence?
Of course they suffer from a mental illness but that is not the same as saying somebody is mental which has extremely negative connotations. Imagine you were in this position?
Born a male but feel like a female in every way?

[HotelUser]

You're comparing feeling in the dumps because you don't like your teeth to being depressed enough to kill yourself because you feel like you're the wrong gender.

[Technologic]

So if I felt I needed a nice set of new teeth you'd be happy funding that for me would you? similarly, if you had terminal cancer and were denied treatment on the grounds of cost (which to you is mere 'petty cash') would you approve of this then?



So if I didn't respond to councselling you'd be happy to give me a comestic makeover to look liek Zac Efron would you? the better question to ask yourself is, would you be happy paying for this type of surgery for somebody else out of your own money because afterall, its easy to spend somebody elses money (that of the taxpayer).

And yes the experts, the same experts & professionals who predicted a mini-ice age in the 1980s, the same experts & professionals who predicted worldwide death with SARS and swine flu.. the list goes on and on.

I'm not aware of any consultant plastic surgeon that is also an expert in geography and public health management.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well I find that a pretty inappropriate thing to say. Can you post your scientific evidence?
Of course they suffer from a mental illness but that is not the same as saying somebody is mental which has extremely negative connotations. Imagine you were in this position?
Born a male but feel like a female in every way?

Scientific evidence? because if you are a born a boy you are a boy and if you are a girl you are a girl. Similary, if I dyed my hair purple tommorow it may look purple but it remains black as that is my DNA/gene structure.

If I were in this position i'd want a sex change - just as some people wouldn't mind a comestic makeover free of charge on the NHS yet it doesn't mean I can have it now does it? an insane person may demand a house made of jelly yet it also does not mean he can have it.

People with issues such as this need mental help, not boob jobs - and if their still determined to have it done, they can pay for it out of their own pocket rather than that of my own or the taxpayers, especially when people are being denied life-extending drugs on the NHS due to the grounds of 'cost'.


I'm not aware of any consultant plastic surgeon that is also an expert in geography and public health management.

I'm talking about experts/professionals in general, it all comes from experts and professionals - whom you blindly follow. Time after time they are wrong, and again i'd ask; even if they are right on this issue, how can you justify this when people are being denied cancer drugs on grounds of cost?


You're comparing feeling in the dumps because you don't like your teeth to being depressed enough to kill yourself because you feel like you're the wrong gender.

No no no, say if i'm depressed over it - you'd like to pay for a new set of teeth for me would you? i'd like an answer yes or no to that, and i'd also like to know what you think about cancer patients being denied drugs on grounds of costs and then scenarios such as this are given the go-ahead.

[Catzsy]

Scientific evidence? because if you are a born a boy you are a boy and if you are a girl you are a girl. Similary, if I dyed my hair purple tommorow it may look purple but it remains black as that is my DNA/gene structure.

If I were in this position i'd want a sex change - just as some people wouldn't mind a comestic makeover free of charge on the NHS yet it doesn't mean I can have it now does it? an insane person may demand a house made of jelly yet it also does not mean he can have it.

People with issues such as this need mental help, not boob jobs - and if their still determined to have it done, they can pay for it out of their own pocket rather than that of my own or the taxpayers, especially when people are being denied life-extending drugs on the NHS due to the grounds of 'cost'.

Dan that is not a scientific fact that is your view which is very narrow. With respect who are you to say they shouldn't have the surgery when it has been granted by health professionals? This is so aggravating because they used to say exactly the same thing about gay people and admit them to mental hospitals to sort them out.

[Technologic]

Scientific evidence? because if you are a born a boy you are a boy and if you are a girl you are a girl. Similary, if I dyed my hair purple tommorow it may look purple but it remains black as that is my DNA/gene structure.

If I were in this position i'd want a sex change - just as some people wouldn't mind a comestic makeover free of charge on the NHS yet it doesn't mean I can have it now does it? an insane person may demand a house made of jelly yet it also does not mean he can have it.

People with issues such as this need mental help, not boob jobs - and if their still determined to have it done, they can pay for it out of their own pocket rather than that of my own or the taxpayers, especially when people are being denied life-extending drugs on the NHS due to the grounds of 'cost'.

As a "member" of the LGBT community i can whole heartedly say that is a load of crap. You're saying that Transsexualism can be cured with "mental" help? Just as being homosexual can be cured can it?

[HotelUser]

Scientific evidence? because if you are a born a boy you are a boy and if you are a girl you are a girl. Similary, if I dyed my hair purple tommorow it may look purple but it remains black as that is my DNA/gene structure.

If I were in this position i'd want a sex change - just as some people wouldn't mind a comestic makeover free of charge on the NHS yet it doesn't mean I can have it now does it? an insane person may demand a house made of jelly yet it also does not mean he can have it.

People with issues such as this need mental help, not boob jobs - and if their still determined to have it done, they can pay for it out of their own pocket rather than that of my own or the taxpayers, especially when people are being denied life-extending drugs on the NHS due to the grounds of 'cost'.



The same thing, it all comes from experts and professionals - whom you blindly follow.



No no no, say if i'm depressed over it - you'd like to pay for a new set of teeth for me would you? i'd like an answer yes or no to that, and i'd also like to know what you think about cancer patients being denied drugs on grounds of costs and then scenarios such as this are given the go-ahead.

No and that's ENTIRELY DIFFERENT because again, there's no suicide leading teeth hating disorders out there certainly not like gender disorders.

[-:Undertaker:-]

As a "member" of the LGBT community i can whole heartedly say that is a load of crap. You're saying that Transsexualism can be cured with "mental" help? Just as being homosexual can be cured can it?

Homosexuality if far different to transsexualism, homosexuality is a phsyical fact whereas wanting to become a man or a woman is not. I'm also speaking as a member fo that 'community'.


No and that's ENTIRELY DIFFERENT because again, there's no suicide leading teeth hating disorders out there certainly not like gender disorders.

But you are justifying it with the excuse of depression, so I ask again; if I want a new set of teeth because my teeth are genuinely depressing me, do you think it is justified in giving me a new set of teeth at the expense of the taxpayer?

Its a yes or no question.

[HotelUser]

Homosexuality if far different to transsexualism, homosexuality is a phsyical fact whereas wanting to become a man or a woman is not. I'm also speaking as a member fo that 'community'.

How is it a solid physical fact when both desires are fueled by subjective feelings and preferences. You can elaborate onto this to say they're also both a desire to live a certain lifestyle too and all retains to the same topics, partners, sexual activity.

[Catzsy]

Homosexuality if far different to transsexualism, homosexuality is a phsyical fact whereas wanting to become a man or a woman is not. I'm also speaking as a member fo that 'community'.

How is homosexuality a 'physical' fact? They have FEELINGS for the same sex. People who want a sex change have to go through all sorts of interviews and it takes a very long time and again they have FEELINGS that they should not be the gender they were born as.

[-:Undertaker:-]

How is it a solid physical fact when both desires are fueled by subjective feelings and preferences. You can elaborate onto this to say they're also both a desire to live a certain lifestyle too and all retains to the same topics, partners, sexual activity.


How is homosexuality a 'physical' fact? They have FEELINGS for the same sex. People who want a sex change have to go through all sorts of interviews and it takes a very long time and again they have FEELINGS that they should not be the gender they were born as.

Because homosexuality is unchangable, it is fact - the idea of 'changing sex' is not a real one, as you cannot change the sex you are just as you cannot change your sexuality. Homosexuality is a fact, as is the fact that you are born a male and will always be a male (the same with females).

The idea or longing of 'being the wrong sex' is a mental one, just as many homosexuals feel they 'should be straight'.

So again we come back to depression/feelings - so I ask again, what about people who are not happy with their bodies/the way they look?

[Catzsy]

Because homosexuality is unchangable, it is fact - the idea of 'changing sex' is not a real one, as you cannot change the sex you are just as you cannot change your sexuality. Homosexuality is a fact, as is the fact that you are born a male and will always be a male (the same with females).

So again we come back to depression/feelings - so I ask again, what about people who are not happy with their bodies/the way they look?


Totally uninformed and prejudiced opinion, there, Dan. You are now saying that people who feel they are in the wrong bodies are dismorphic which is an entirely different health issue.

[HotelUser]

Because homosexuality is unchangable, it is fact - the idea of 'changing sex' is not a real one, as you cannot change the sex you are just as you cannot change your sexuality. Homosexuality is a fact, as is the fact that you are born a male and will always be a male (the same with females).

The idea or longing of 'being the wrong sex' is a mental one, just as many homosexuals feel they 'should be straight'.

So again we come back to depression/feelings - so I ask again, what about people who are not happy with their bodies/the way they look?

No it's not a fact. People's sexual desires, and desires for a partner change frequently throughout your life. Obviously some people know they're attracted to other males or other females from almost the beginning, but the same with gender disorders some children feel they're not the correct gender for them from an incredibly young age.

Don't mix facts up with your opinions!

[-:Undertaker:-]

Totally uninformed and prejudiced opinion, there, Dan.

Whats prejudiced about it? i'm giving you fact that you cannot change from the sex you were born no matter how many hormones you take, no matter what you have removed/added - the very fact they [transsexuals] have to take hormones for the rest of their days should make it very clear to you that they are and always will remain as what they were born as.


No it's not a fact. People's sexual desires, and desires for a partner change frequently throughout your life. Obviously some people know they're attracted to other males or other females from almost the beginning, but the same with gender disorders some children feel they're not the correct gender for them from an incredibly young age.

Don't mix facts up with your opinions!

But it is fact, like the fact (sorry to be blunt) that I get an erection when I think of/see sexual images I like/am attracted to.

That is fact, thinking i'm a woman inside on the other hand is a figment of my desire/imagination, the same way some people genuinely believe they are Jesus Christ reborn and sent down to Earth - it does not mean they are.

[HotelUser]

Whats prejudiced about it? i'm giving you fact that you cannot change from the sex you were born no matter how many hormones you take, no matter what you have removed/added - the very fact they [transsexuals] have to take hormones for the rest of their days should make it very clear to you that they are and always will remain as what they were born as.



But it is fact, like the fact (sorry to be blunt) that I get an erection when I think of/see sexual images I like/am attracted to.

That is fact, thinking i'm a woman inside on the other hand is a figment of my desire/imagination.

Being a male who thinks of themselves -as a female- engaging in sexual activity with males who is aroused and who gets an erection at those thoughts should also validate that is a fact by your odd definition of a fact then.

[GommeInc]

Hmmm, tough situation. A birth defect is a justified reason to have surgery, as it could come down as necessity, but changing sex doesn't quite ring out as a necessity or a luxury. It depends on their physical state really, if they were unbelievably uncomfortable, like their mind was saying one thing but their body was saying another, then it's possibly justified, but wanting to be a different gender should probably be down to the individual paying for all the costs, not the hospital/Government/tax payer. From the article, it seems like a sob story down to mental ill-health, so operating is possibly the wrong way to go about it if her mind isn't quite with it. You can live with any gender, it's not like she was born male and had a painful life as one where her body started to physically change into a woman when she hit puberty in some sort of science fiction story, but it depends if she had any sort of tests done - things could of been skin deep or deeply psychological. But that's beyond the article. She deserved to win the legal battle which is the main focus it seems of the article - if the hospital allowed for her to be operated on, then they should of carried it on to the end, rather than leave the job half finished.

[Catzsy]

Whats prejudiced about it? i'm giving you fact that you cannot change from the sex you were born no matter how many hormones you take, no matter what you have removed/added - the very fact they [transsexuals] have to take hormones for the rest of their days should make it very clear to you that they are and always will remain as what they were born as.



But it is fact, like the fact (sorry to be blunt) that I get an erection when I think of/see sexual images I like/am attracted to.

That is fact, thinking i'm a woman inside on the other hand is a figment of my desire/imagination, the same way some people genuinely believe they are Jesus Christ reborn and sent down to Earth - it does not mean they are.

It is prejudiced because transgender people are recognised in law and can now change their birth certificates and become the sex they desire. I am assuming then that ordinary men and woman who also require hormone treatment for conditions they have are the same as far as you are concerned then?

[Mrs.McCall]

I think you're using this to peddle your own transphobic views. I think your reasoning for being annoyed at this is more due to the fact that wanting to be a different gender is something you cannot understand. Surprisingly, I've never had this worry but I do know people who feel that they've been trapped in the wrong body and the hell that they have to go through.

However, I agree this shouldn't be paid by the NHS. The NHS should be there for people in need, who need to get better, whose health will dramatically increase due to its actions. I think it's terrible that she felt she had to commit suicide but suicidal thoughts shouldn't be reasoning for money like that being paid out. For the suicidal thoughts, she should've been given therapy. I feel any cosmetic surgery that isn't needed to save a life should be paid privately.

There have been many cases where teen girls have been given NHS surgery for breast augmentation because they were bullied. Where obese people were given liposuction because they refuse to lose weight. These were not widely reported yet this one is. Considering the source it doesn't surprise me but I feel that article is doing nothing but stir up transphobia and hatred.

[Ajthedragon]

I think it's fine, I look at it in my own shoes.

If something could completely change my life and make me extremely happy, I don't believe money should become an issue, unless of course, it is thoroughly ridiculous, which this is not.

[Suspective]

The point is though here, the taxpayer shouldn't be paying for somebody's desires to be a Woman. There is private companies, which do exactly the same surgery (and there is no doubt, the NHS paid a private company to do this surgery) and they do so using their own funds. There is quite a few people, who would want a boob enlargement on the NHS it isn't going to happen, I am also more than sure other men would want a sex change - but they get told to pay for it themselves.

Then on the other end of the spectrum, there is people who are being denied life saving drugs totalling to the same amount. Surely they should be given priority, over a man who has decided he wants to change gender... Its al about prioritizing. He was originally denied treatment, by the Primary Care Trust who decides on the money. But per usual, someone wins a legal battle against the NHS. The people who decided at the end of the day, whether or not he got treatment probably don't even have anything to do with the local budget. Now they have lost a big sum of money, and legal costs which could have been put towards something which benefits a number of patients not one man.

The NHS isn't here to provide transexual surgery, its here to save peoples lives. Hence, why it was set up.

[HotelUser]

I think it's fine, I look at it in my own shoes.

If something could completely change my life and make me extremely happy, I don't believe money should become an issue, unless of course, it is thoroughly ridiculous, which this is not.

Well spoken views on this, I agree with you, +rep :)

[Suspective]

I think it's fine, I look at it in my own shoes.

If something could completely change my life and make me extremely happy, I don't believe money should become an issue, unless of course, it is thoroughly ridiculous, which this is not.

Fair enough, I do agree with you. But you can spend your own money on it not the National Health Service'.

[GommeInc]

I think you're using this to peddle your own transphobic views. I think your reasoning for being annoyed at this is more due to the fact that wanting to be a different gender is something you cannot understand. Surprisingly, I've never had this worry but I do know people who feel that they've been trapped in the wrong body and the hell that they have to go through.

However, I agree this shouldn't be paid by the NHS. The NHS should be there for people in need, who need to get better, whose health will dramatically increase due to its actions. I think it's terrible that she felt she had to commit suicide but suicidal thoughts shouldn't be reasoning for money like that being paid out. For the suicidal thoughts, she should've been given therapy. I feel any cosmetic surgery that isn't needed to save a life should be paid privately.

There have been many cases where teen girls have been given NHS surgery for breast augmentation because they were bullied. Where obese people were given liposuction because they refuse to lose weight. These were not widely reported yet this one is. Considering the source it doesn't surprise me but I feel that article is doing nothing but stir up transphobia and hatred.
Would you say you agree with the idea that she has severe mental health issues? Paranoia, depression etc. To attempt to commit suicide over something like this does come off as something wrong with the individual's psychological well being. She doesn't need to have the operation(s), because there are other ways around her desires and depression, for example. The problem here is that she wants to harm herself because of these thoughts - her body is fine, it's all in the mind (as the now made up rhyme and now famous saying goes :P) If the thoughts are what are causing the problems, then the NHS (or other organisation) should tackle the cause of the thoughts - the mind, remove any sense of paranoia, self-harm etc. To operate to get rid of it seems a bit selfish, when the costs could be down to her over a set amount of time. Afterall, I could get depressed over someone bullying me for goodness knows what reason, doesn't mean I should get the Government (and the tax payers) to kill off the bully, or change what is supposedly "wrong" with me, when all I need is the doubt removed.

[HotelUser]

Would you say you agree with the idea that she has severe mental health issues? Paranoia, depression etc. To attempt to commit suicide over something like this does come off as something wrong with the individual's psychological well being. She doesn't need to have the operation(s), because there are other ways around her desires and depression, for example. The problem here is that she wants to harm herself because of these thoughts - her body is fine, it's all in the mind (as the now made up rhyme and now famous saying goes :P) If the thoughts are what are causing the problems, then the NHS (or other organisation) should tackle the cause of the thoughts - the mind, remove any sense of paranoia, self-harm etc. To operate to get rid of it seems a bit selfish, when the costs could be down to her over a set amount of time. Afterall, I could get depressed over someone bullying me for goodness knows what reason, doesn't mean I should get the Government (and the tax payers) to kill off the bully, or change what is supposedly "wrong" with me, when all I need is the doubt removed.

That's like saying you can cure being homosexual Dan. And what you're basically saying yourself is we shouldn't try to 'cure' homosexual people, but we should try to 'cure' transgendered people because otherwise giving into what they want would cost you too much.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Totally uninformed and prejudiced opinion, there, Dan. You are now saying that people who feel they are in the wrong bodies are dismorphic which is an entirely different health issue.

I'm saying its a mental condition/a feeling - its not reality.


Being a male who thinks of themselves -as a female- engaging in sexual activity with males who is aroused and who gets an erection at those thoughts should also validate that is a fact by your odd definition of a fact then.

Confused at that, need to explain better if there's a point in what you said.


It is prejudiced because transgender people are recognised in law and can now change their birth certificates and become the sex they desire. I am assuming then that ordinary men and woman who also require hormone treatment for conditions they have are the same as far as you are concerned then?

Oh the law, yes well modern politically correct law is very differing from reality.

As for the second option, depends on hormones/DNA - but no, if you are born with a vagina and have female DNA/genes then are you a woman and the same for a man only the opposite.


I think you're using this to peddle your own transphobic views. I think your reasoning for being annoyed at this is more due to the fact that wanting to be a different gender is something you cannot understand. Surprisingly, I've never had this worry but I do know people who feel that they've been trapped in the wrong body and the hell that they have to go through.

Oh what absolute nonsense, get a grip. I'm annoyed because taxpayers money is being spent on this and the fact that cancer patients are denied life-extending drugs in place for this. I said earlier on if he wanted to undergo gender 'reassignment' then he could do so and I wouldn't blink an eyelid - provided its out of his own pocket and not mine.

Now grow up instead of throwing around silly words, 'phobic this, phobic that' - get a grip over yourself.


However, I agree this shouldn't be paid by the NHS. The NHS should be there for people in need, who need to get better, whose health will dramatically increase due to its actions. I think it's terrible that she felt she had to commit suicide but suicidal thoughts shouldn't be reasoning for money like that being paid out. For the suicidal thoughts, she should've been given therapy. I feel any cosmetic surgery that isn't needed to save a life should be paid privately.

We're agreed then, so either you can withdraw the fact i'm 'transphobic' or you are too by your own definition.


There have been many cases where teen girls have been given NHS surgery for breast augmentation because they were bullied. Where obese people were given liposuction because they refuse to lose weight. These were not widely reported yet this one is. Considering the source it doesn't surprise me but I feel that article is doing nothing but stir up transphobia and hatred.

And that shouldn't be paid for either, as for liposuction stories - they have been reported.

There is no hatred here, its a matter of priority, common sense and money.


That's like saying you can cure being homosexual Dan. And what you're basically saying yourself is we shouldn't try to 'cure' homosexual people, but we should try to 'cure' transgendered people because otherwise giving into what they want would cost you too much.

We have been through this, homosexuality is a chemical fact whereas transsexuality is not a chemical fact, it is a feeling/mental condition.

[Jam]

"Trapped in the wrong body", what a heap. You are born with what you are because of which chromosones you have. Because you follow feminine traits does not make you of another gender. What a selfish ******** to take that much any money over aesthetic things when people die because they are rejected funding for life saving treatment and surgery.

[HotelUser]

I was saying that, you said there's a certain factuality about homosexuality because it's limited, for instance, a male getting aroused when he thinks sexually about another male which just simply cannot be helped - thus implying that the processess is isn't subjective because the male has no say in the process.

However by your own logic you've deemed transgendered people's desires to be equally factual because a male transgendered would be aroused if they thought sexually about a male - whilst throughout their sexual thoughts they thought of themself as a female.

A transgendered male will be aroused thinking that they're a female engaging in sexual activity with a male. I suppose that's a "fact".

[Catzsy]

I'm saying its a mental condition/a feeling - its not reality.



Confused at that, need to explain better if there's a point in what you said.



Oh the law, yes well modern politically correct law is very differing from reality.

As for the second option, depends on hormones/DNA - but no, if you are born with a vagina and have female DNA/genes then are you a woman and the same for a man only the opposite.



Oh what absolute nonsense, get a grip. I'm annoyed because taxpayers money is being spent on this and the fact that cancer patients are denied life-extending drugs in place for this. I said earlier on if he wanted to undergo gender 'reassignment' then he could do so and I wouldn't blink an eyelid - provided its out of his own pocket and not mine.

Now grow up instead of throwing around silly words, 'phobic this, phobic that' - get a grip over yourself.



We're agreed then, so either you can withdraw the fact i'm 'transphobic' or you are too by your own definition.



And that shouldn't be paid for either, as for liposuction stories - they have been reported.

There is no hatred here, its a matter of priority, common sense and money.



We have been through this, homosexuality is a chemical fact whereas transsexuality is not a chemical fact, it is a feeling/mental condition.

Where on earth do you come up with the idea that homosexuality is a chemical fact? As I said previously your views are the same as some people had twenty/thirty years ago about homosexuality . Just because you don't agree with the law does not make it right - perhaps it was an enlightened decision based on information from people who actually have some knowledge on the subject rather than assuming they do.
Here is some information on the subject:http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu.htm

Here is a moral dilemma for you. There is a man lying on the floor bleeding to death from slashed wrists. In the same room there is a man suffering from cancer waiting for an operatiuon. Who do you deal with first?

[-:Undertaker:-]

I was saying that, you said there's a certain factuality about homosexuality because it's limited, for instance, a male getting aroused when he thinks sexually about another male which just simply cannot be helped - thus implying that the processess is isn't subjective because the male has no say in the process.

However by your own logic you've deemed transgendered people's desires to be equally factual because a male transgendered would be aroused if they thought sexually about a male - whilst throughout their sexual thoughts they thought of themself as a female.

A transgendered male will be aroused thinking that they're a female engaging in sexual activity with a male. I suppose that's a "fact".

There's nothing sexual about thinking of yourself as the oppsosite sex you were born as, if there is then thats called a fetish - if its not sexual then its part of their thoughts/feelings, its not chemical whereas homosexuality is chemical.


Where on earth do you come up with the idea that homosexuality is a chemical fact? As I said previously your views are the same as some people had twenty/thirty years ago about homosexuality . Just because you don't agree with the law does not make it right - perhaps it was an enlightened decision based on information from people who actually have some knowledge on the subject rather than assuming they do.

I come up with the idea because put it this way, I don't look at oh I don't know.. Zac Efron and think "now i'll get an erection over him" - it just happens, its my hormones. The difference between now and thirty years ago is that people looked on homosexuality as a problem whereas thats not so much the case - but its still chemical.


Here is a moral dilemma for you. There is a man lying on the floor bleeding to death from slashed wrists. In the same room there is a man suffering from cancer waiting for an operatiuon. Who do you deal with first?

You deal with both as they are both life-threatening, are reality and are not a figment of thought/feeling. If theres not enough money/staff on then you deal with the most urgent first obviously which would be the slashed wrists, but really theres no comparison here.

A better question and more relevent one would be; there's a man with terminal cancer before you asking for drugs to extend his remaining time on Earth, on the other hand there's somebody who is threatening/has tried to kill themselves/self due to a belief that they think they are a female inside - who do you provide funding to?

I know which one i'd pick.

[HotelUser]

There's nothing sexual about thinking of yourself as the oppsosite sex you were born as, if there is then thats called a fetish - if its not sexual then its part of their thoughts/feelings, its not chemical whereas homosexuality is chemical.



I come up with the idea because put it this way, I don't look at oh I don't know.. Zac Efron and think "now i'll get an erection over him" - it just happens, its my hormones. The difference between now and thirty years ago is that people looked on homosexuality as a problem whereas thats not so much the case - but its still chemical.



You deal with both as they are both life-threatening, are reality and are not a figment of thought/feeling. If theres not enough money/staff on then you deal with the most urgent first obviously which would be the slashed wrists, but really theres no comparison here.

Okay, then I've been daydreaming and being aroused at the thought of attractive men since the day I was born - guess that's just a standard fetish. I must not be gay!

(note that I'm ignoring where you said it's chemical, because it's not your opinion that it's chemical - it's just a incorrect fact you've for whatever reason decided to make up here)

[-:Undertaker:-]

Okay, then I've been daydreaming and being aroused at the thought of attractive men since the day I was born - guess that's just a standard fetish. I must not be gay!

(note that I'm ignoring where you said it's chemical, because it's not your opinion that it's chemical - it's just a incorrect fact you've for whatever reason decided to make up here)

So when you look at guys you are sexually attracted to, you have to think as in "right, now I need to get hard" in order to gain an erection do you?

If so, then you are not gay. If yes, then you are gay - and due to chemical elements in your own body.

[Catzsy]

There's nothing sexual about thinking of yourself as the oppsosite sex you were born as, if there is then thats called a fetish - if its not sexual then its part of their thoughts/feelings, its not chemical whereas homosexuality is chemical.



I come up with the idea because put it this way, I don't look at oh I don't know.. Zac Efron and think "now i'll get an erection over him" - it just happens, its my hormones. The difference between now and thirty years ago is that people looked on homosexuality as a problem whereas thats not so much the case - but its still chemical.

You deal with both as they are both life-threatening, are reality and are not a figment of thought/feeling. If theres not enough money/staff on then you deal with the most urgent first obviously which would be the slashed wrists, but really theres no comparison here.

A better question and more relevent one would be; there's a man with terminal cancer before you asking for drugs to extend his remaining time on Earth, on the other hand there's somebody who is threatening/has tried to kill themselves/self due to a belief that they think they are a female inside - who do you provide funding to?

I know which one i'd pick.

The part in bold is exactly what you think about transsexuals now. Sorry I did edit the first post
with this information:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu.htm

So you would leave the man lying on the floor to die?

[HotelUser]

So when you look at guys, you have to think as in "right, now I need to get hard" in order to gain an erection do you?

If so, then you are not gay. If yes, then you are gay - and due to chemical elements in your own body.

But if I'm turned on thinking of myself as a female having intercourse with other males and I don't have to think to get hard in order to gain an erection then I'm simply becoming hard due to these same chemical elements in my body.

Side note: the lack of scientific accuracy in this debate is cringeworthy.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The part in bold is exactly what you think about transsexuals now. Sorry I did edit the first post
with this information:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu.htm

So you would leave the man lying on the floor to die?

That website views transsexuality as a disease or a chemical condition, it is neither.

As for the question, you would pick the most urgent which is the man with the slashed wrists, now answer my one which is a bit more relevent to the thread (cancer vs transsexual boob implants).

[HotelUser]

That website views transsexuality as a disease or a chemical condition, it is neither.

As for the question, you would pick the most urgent which is the man with the slashed wrists, now answer my one which is a bit more relevent to the thread (cancer vs transsexual boob implants).

Thanks for the quick diagnosis, doctor :rolleyes:.

[-:Undertaker:-]

But if I'm turned on thinking of myself as a female having intercourse with other males and I don't have to think to get hard in order to gain an erection then I'm simply becoming hard due to these same chemical elements in my body.

Side note: the lack of scientific accuracy in this debate is cringeworthy.

Then thats a sexual fetish/thought, people act on fetishes aswell. The idea of transsexuality is the feeling that you are the opposite sex but trapped in anothers body, its hardly relevent to sexual thoughts.

If so or even so, you dont have to act on sexual thoughts.


Thanks for the quick diagnosis, doctor :rolleyes:.

No problem, because we've now established that homosexuality is a chemical feeling (of which we have no control over hence why we become aroused over men) whereas transsexuality is a thought, not a sexual or chemical feeling.

In an attempt to prove the point, you've gone into sexual thoughts now which aren't all that relevent if he feels he's really a woman.

[Catzsy]

That website views transsexuality as a disease or a chemical condition, it is neither.

As for the question, you would pick the most urgent which is the man with the slashed wrists, now answer my one which is a bit more relevent to the thread (cancer vs transsexual boob implants).

And your evidential source in support of your views is?

No it is not more relevant but what I would say is that every case should be dealt with on it's merits and individual factors. Is 3 months more life to a terminal cancer patient worth a transsexual committing suicide - no I don't think it is. Should cancer treatment and operations be given priority when there is a good chance of survival - yes I think they should. I am sure anybody waiting for a transgender operation would understand this and providing they know they are on a waiting list then I am sure they would be prepared to wait. It's when it is turned down it's a problem.

[HotelUser]

Then thats a sexual fetish/thought, people act on fetishes aswell. The idea of transsexuality is the feeling that you are the opposite sex but trapped in anothers body, its hardly relevent to sexual thoughts.

If so or even so, you dont have to act on sexual thoughts.



No problem, because we've now established that homosexuality is a chemical feeling (of which we have no control over hence why we become aroused over men) whereas transsexuality is a thought, not a sexual or chemical feeling.

Transgendered sexual thoughts are just as much "chemical" by your bizarre use of haxor science as homosexual sexual desires.

You've brought up a point which I have left untouched too, Dan. Transgendered people think of themselves as the opposite gender in every single aspect of their life and role in society, it's not just limited to sexual activity.

If I'm a transgendered male then I would instantly think of myself as a female in every situation without having to first do anything else. It's first natured.

[-:Undertaker:-]

And your evidential source in support of your views is?

My evidence is the fact that transsexuality is not chemical, hence why they are not the sex they desire to be in the first place and hence why they have to take hormones to 'become' the sex after the gender re-assignment. Homosexuality on the other hand is chemical and my source is myself.


No it is not more relevant but what I would say is that every case should be dealt with on it's merits and individual factors. Is 3 months more life to a terminal cancer patient worth a transsexual committing suicide - no I don't think it is. Should cancer treatment and operations be given priority when there is a good chance of survival - yes I think they should. I am sure anybody waiting for a transgender operation would understand this and providing they know they are on a waiting list then I am sure they would be prepared to wait. It's when it is turned down it's a problem.

I'm sorry, but suicide is a choice - not a condition like cancer.


Transgendered sexual thoughts are just as much "chemical" by your bizarre use of haxor science as homosexual sexual desires.

You've brought up a point which I have left untouched too, Dan. Transgendered people think of themselves as the opposite gender in every single aspect of their life and role in society, it's not just limited to sexual activity.

If I'm a transgendered male then I would instantly think of myself as a female in every situation without having to first do anything else. It's first natured.

Indeed they do, and you've hit the nail on the head 'think of themselves' - its a mental condition/a thought, it is not chemical.

As I said earlier, some people think of themselves (genuinely) as the second coming of Jesus Christ - it doesn't mean its reality though, just as transsexuals 'think' of themselves as the opposite sex when infact they are the sex they were born as and always will be.

Some homosexuals may 'think' of themselves as straight, but thats not reality either.

[HotelUser]

My evidence is the fact that transsexuality is not chemical, hence why they are not the sex they desire to be in the first place and hence why they have to take hormones to 'become' the sex after the gender re-assignment. Homosexuality on the other hand is chemical and my source is myself.



I'm sorry, but suicide is a choice - not a condition like cancer.



Indeed they do, and you've hit the nail on the head 'think of themselves' - its a mental condition/a thought, it is not chemical.

Okay, lets correct your use of the word chemical here.

There is a homosexual male who sees another male and is sexually aroused. What's happening here:

Their inferior temporal cortex, orbitofrontal cortex, cingulate cortex, right insula and caudate nucleus parts of the brain all exhibit increased activity, the bloodflow to the male's sexual parts increase and thus they are aroused.

If it's as black and white chemical as you say then every male would experience the exact same symptoms and degrees of arousal when they're exposed to the same sexual scenery or thoughts.

However this is not true. You visualize or think of sexual things, and then to the degree of attractiveness determined SUBJECTIVELY on a per person basis you are aroused to different degrees.

You're not simply mixing carbon and nitrogen to get cyanide here. There are MANY MANY MANY subjective feelings at play before hand, even without the person realizing it.

Saying it's purely chemical to support your stance is baseless because it just simply isn't a cut and dry chemical thing, there ARE subjective elements at play and you can't argue that simply due to the fact that different people are just aroused by different things.

[Jam]

Transgendered sexual thoughts are just as much "chemical" by your bizarre use of haxor science as homosexual sexual desires

Its aesthetic, end of. If you think your a woman but there's a lack of breasts, so ****, unless your paying 100% yourself, there are hundreds of thousands of people ahead of you in the 'importance queue'.

[Mrs.McCall]

Would you say you agree with the idea that she has severe mental health issues? Paranoia, depression etc. To attempt to commit suicide over something like this does come off as something wrong with the individual's psychological well being. She doesn't need to have the operation(s), because there are other ways around her desires and depression, for example. The problem here is that she wants to harm herself because of these thoughts - her body is fine, it's all in the mind (as the now made up rhyme and now famous saying goes :P) If the thoughts are what are causing the problems, then the NHS (or other organisation) should tackle the cause of the thoughts - the mind, remove any sense of paranoia, self-harm etc. To operate to get rid of it seems a bit selfish, when the costs could be down to her over a set amount of time. Afterall, I could get depressed over someone bullying me for goodness knows what reason, doesn't mean I should get the Government (and the tax payers) to kill off the bully, or change what is supposedly "wrong" with me, when all I need is the doubt removed.

Clearly she has issues based on the fact she feels trapped and I believe these should be dealt with first. I think anybody who may have psychological issues should not be allowed plastic surgery such as Heidi Montag or even Michael Jackson but that's a debate for another day



Oh what absolute nonsense, get a grip. I'm annoyed because taxpayers money is being spent on this and the fact that cancer patients are denied life-extending drugs in place for this. I said earlier on if he wanted to undergo gender 'reassignment' then he could do so and I wouldn't blink an eyelid - provided its out of his own pocket and not mine.

Now grow up instead of throwing around silly words, 'phobic this, phobic that' - get a grip over yourself.

We're agreed then, so either you can withdraw the fact i'm 'transphobic' or you are too by your own definition.

I do agree with you 100%. The argument you're saying is that trans people shouldn't be allowed sex change ops on the NHS. Completely agree, the NHS doesn't have the funding to carry out such requests.

I am, however, worried about the 'facts' you base your argument on. I feel that you've used this as an opportunity to express views that represent the LGBT community in a negative way. Now, you may be part of that community but that doesn't give you a free pass to say damaging things such as homosexuality being chemical because that opens the floor for homophobes (perhaps not yourself) to use that argument against people.

But, as I say, the crux of this thread is debate whether or not the NHS should fund these operations and I think no.

[GommeInc]

That's like saying you can cure being homosexual Dan. And what you're basically saying yourself is we shouldn't try to 'cure' homosexual people, but we should try to 'cure' transgendered people because otherwise giving into what they want would cost you too much.
I'm guessing this was for Undertaker? :P I wondered why you were calling me "homosexual Dan", it seems like a cute name ;) Was the reply related to what I said? I can't seem to make it out so I guess it was a completely wrong post, or you accidentally quoted.

This is an interesting thread though, it opens up whether we should be allowing people sex-change operations on the NHS or not.

[FlyingJesus]

But you are justifying it with the excuse of depression, so I ask again; if I want a new set of teeth because my teeth are genuinely depressing me, do you think it is justified in giving me a new set of teeth at the expense of the taxpayer?

That's an entirely different situation - you seem to be confusing transexualism with illogical fashion ideas. This person does not simply want to look like a woman because they like how women look, they are in all mental and chemical aspects a woman. That aside, this is not an £18000 surgery as suggested, it's an £8000 one that's ended up costing more because the NHS illegally backed out of completing the course of treatment, and considering there are rather a lot of people paying a lot of tax in this country I can't see how you can complain at £8000 being used to help someone be happy enough in themselves to not be trying to commit suicide - that is saving a life, no matter what you think of the life being saved


"Trapped in the wrong body", what a heap. You are born with what you are because of which chromosones you have. Because you follow feminine traits does not make you of another gender. What a selfish ******** to take that much any money over aesthetic things when people die because they are rejected funding for life saving treatment and surgery.

As above, it's quite clearly not just an aesthetic problem if it affects her to the point of attempting suicide. You not understanding a medical problem doesn't make it not one


So when you look at guys you are sexually attracted to, you have to think as in "right, now I need to get hard" in order to gain an erection do you?

If so, then you are not gay. If yes, then you are gay - and due to chemical elements in your own body.

Not sure if you're aware of this Dan but attraction doesn't always hand in hand with erections, even in your teens

[Mrs.McCall]

It'd make a fantastic debate tbh.

[dbgtz]

Wow, I actually need an operation which could save my life. Now I know why they can't afford it, because of stupid people who don't think properly.

[Catzsy]

My evidence is the fact that transsexuality is not chemical, hence why they are not the sex they desire to be in the first place and hence why they have to take hormones to 'become' the sex after the gender re-assignment. Homosexuality on the other hand is chemical and my source is myself.

Indeed they do, and you've hit the nail on the head 'think of themselves' - its a mental condition/a thought, it is not chemical.

As I said earlier, some people think of themselves (genuinely) as the second coming of Jesus Christ - it doesn't mean its reality though, just as transsexuals 'think' of themselves as the opposite sex when infact they are the sex they were born as and always will be.

Some homosexuals may 'think' of themselves as straight, but thats not reality either.


That is no evidence at all - it is your opinion which is not backed up by any valid sources.

Just because suicide is a choice doesn't mean that their illness that lead's them to want to commit suicide should not be dealt with in a sympathetic manner. You will be telling me next there is no such thing as mental illness and people should get a grip. The last two paragraphs are just errant nonsense. How does somebody with paranoid delusions of thinking they are Jesus Christ have anything to do with the suffering caused to a person who feels they are a woman in a man's body? Are you saying they are paranoid schizophrenics? Some Gay people think they are straight? Maybe they are bi - I don't know but where does that come from unless they are in the closet voluntarily and if so that is their choice.

[Wig44.]

No, I can't believe anyone thinks this peron should get any surgery on the NHS. Treat the psychological problems (depression, suicidal thoughts) with psychology, not surgery.

I don't think comparisons can be drawn between homosexuality and trassexualism because they are completely different things. Homosexuals have been shown to be exactly the same as heterosexuals, no hormonal differences or structural differences in the brain etc. Transsexuals have already been found to have some diferences. For example; http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034.

[Catzsy]

No, I can't believe anyone thinks this peron should get any surgery on the NHS. Treat the psychological problems (depression, suicidal thoughts) with psychology, not surgery.

I don't think comparisons can be drawn between homosexuality and trassexualism because they are completely different things. Homosexuals have been shown to be exactly the same as heterosexuals, no hormonal differences or structural differences in the brain etc. Transsexuals have already been found to have some diferences. For example; http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034.

The article you posted actually indicates that there are chemical differences so I don't get your argument that they should not be allowed surgery? Treating them for depression etc costs money too so maybe allowing them the surgery is going to be more cost effective in the long run?

[HotelUser]

No, I can't believe anyone thinks this peron should get any surgery on the NHS. Treat the psychological problems (depression, suicidal thoughts) with psychology, not surgery.

I don't think comparisons can be drawn between homosexuality and trassexualism because they are completely different things. Homosexuals have been shown to be exactly the same as heterosexuals, no hormonal differences or structural differences in the brain etc. Transsexuals have already been found to have some diferences. For example; http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034.

Or we can take advantage of one of the extremely rare cases where money can make you happy and just give them what will change their life forever.

[Mrs.McCall]

I agree with the psycological thing though. Someone with psychological problems shouldn't be given irreversable surgery. They should undergo strict vetting which I am sure was in place here.

[Catzsy]

I agree with the psycological thing though. Someone with psychological problems shouldn't be given irreversable surgery. They should undergo strict vetting which I am sure was in place here.

They do go through long and arduous periods of vetting and psychological tests to make sure it is the best course of action for them. It can take years.

[Mrs.McCall]

I think it's sad that they go through it but I still think it should be paid for privately and I'd say that for anything cosmetic.

Here's one for you. How about women who have had a masectomy (breast removed) due to breast cancer? Should they get free reconstructive surgery on the NHS? Or how about somebody who had their nose broken and it becomes mis-shapen?

[Catzsy]

I think it's sad that they go through it but I still think it should be paid for privately and I'd say that for anything cosmetic.

Here's one for you. How about women who have had a masectomy (breast removed) due to breast cancer? Should they get free reconstructive surgery on the NHS? Or how about somebody who had their nose broken and it becomes mis-shapen?

Yes I think both should be paid for. If somebody loses a leg they get an artificial one. Nobosy would complain about that. Also a mishapen can cause problems with breathing etc.

[Mrs.McCall]

It's interesting how to decide. I guess that's what Ethics teams are for! Yeah, mishapen noses can be a pain. I had a deviated septum and couldn't breathe well but NHS refused to pay so had to go private.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Okay, lets correct your use of the word chemical here.

There is a homosexual male who sees another male and is sexually aroused. What's happening here:

Their inferior temporal cortex, orbitofrontal cortex, cingulate cortex, right insula and caudate nucleus parts of the brain all exhibit increased activity, the bloodflow to the male's sexual parts increase and thus they are aroused.

If it's as black and white chemical as you say then every male would experience the exact same symptoms and degrees of arousal when they're exposed to the same sexual scenery or thoughts.

However this is not true. You visualize or think of sexual things, and then to the degree of attractiveness determined SUBJECTIVELY on a per person basis you are aroused to different degrees.

You're not simply mixing carbon and nitrogen to get cyanide here. There are MANY MANY MANY subjective feelings at play before hand, even without the person realizing it.

Saying it's purely chemical to support your stance is baseless because it just simply isn't a cut and dry chemical thing, there ARE subjective elements at play and you can't argue that simply due to the fact that different people are just aroused by different things.

It is a chemical reaction mainly which thus influences other areas of your person, transsexuality on the other hand is not influenced at all by chemicals only by thought and the idea that 'I am a man trapped in a womans body' or vice versa. Healthcare should not be influenced by thought/mental issues, it should be based on reality.

The thought that you are the opposite sex is not medical reality, its fantasy/wishful thinking.


Clearly she has issues based on the fact she feels trapped and I believe these should be dealt with first. I think anybody who may have psychological issues should not be allowed plastic surgery such as Heidi Montag or even Michael Jackson but that's a debate for another day

The difference is that those people paid for it themselves, and cosmestic surgery is rather different to taking hormones and changing organs around in order to imitate the opposite sex; personally I find that kind of surgery deeply distasteful.


I do agree with you 100%. The argument you're saying is that trans people shouldn't be allowed sex change ops on the NHS. Completely agree, the NHS doesn't have the funding to carry out such requests.

I am, however, worried about the 'facts' you base your argument on. I feel that you've used this as an opportunity to express views that represent the LGBT community in a negative way. Now, you may be part of that community but that doesn't give you a free pass to say damaging things such as homosexuality being chemical because that opens the floor for homophobes (perhaps not yourself) to use that argument against people.

But, as I say, the crux of this thread is debate whether or not the NHS should fund these operations and I think no.

Whether I represent or say things that conflict with the idea of an LGBT 'community' is irrelevent, the idea that because you are gay means you have to have militant gay stances on every issue or question the right of speech of those who don't agree with homosexuality/transsexualism is a strand of militantism.

I for one don't agree (on a personal level) with gay marriage or civil partnerships as I feel marriage is the bedrock of the family, I also do not agree with gay adoption and thus wouldn't do it myself. On the other hand (with the marriage issue) I also respect the idea that thats my choice and the choice should be open to those who do want to get married but it should also be there for those who don't wish to perform such ceremonies (ie the Church).

But back to the transseuxal issue as thats more of a diversion; I don't agree with transsexualism, but also respect the right that if somebody should want to carry this out to their body they should have every right to do so - however not at the expense of the taxpayer especially at a time when cancer drugs are being denied to cancer patients who are in real need of help.

That is my issue with this.


That's an entirely different situation - you seem to be confusing transexualism with illogical fashion ideas. This person does not simply want to look like a woman because they like how women look, they are in all mental and chemical aspects a woman. That aside, this is not an £18000 surgery as suggested, it's an £8000 one that's ended up costing more because the NHS illegally backed out of completing the course of treatment, and considering there are rather a lot of people paying a lot of tax in this country I can't see how you can complain at £8000 being used to help someone be happy enough in themselves to not be trying to commit suicide - that is saving a life, no matter what you think of the life being saved

I agree with the NHS point, it was wrong of them to do it in the first place. However the second part, you are basically giving into blackmail - if somebody is willing to take their life then thats a choice and not a condition.

There is no aspect of 'saving a life' as the life is not in danger, unless of course he wishes to take it himself.


As above, it's quite clearly not just an aesthetic problem if it affects her to the point of attempting suicide. You not understanding a medical problem doesn't make it not one

Its a mental problem yes, he feels himself to be a woman when in reality he is not. I gave the Jesus Christ example before, some people genuinely believe they are the son of god - however you'd quite rightly dismiss them as nuts. This is the same thing, just for idealogical purposes we're stampeided into pretending transsexualism is some sort of disease.


Not sure if you're aware of this Dan but attraction doesn't always hand in hand with erections, even in your teens

Homosexuality is chemical, transsexualism is not - one is the chemical reaction of the body, the other is a thought.


That is no evidence at all - it is your opinion which is not backed up by any valid sources.

The only 'evidence' you provided before was a sob-site which pretends or makes out that transsexualism is some form of disease rather than what it is in reality, a mental thought where the subject actually thinks they are the opposite sex. They may be similar to the opposite sex yes in personality just as many gay guys are - but thats called being feminine as its part of your personality.


Just because suicide is a choice doesn't mean that their illness that lead's them to want to commit suicide should not be dealt with in a sympathetic manner. You will be telling me next there is no such thing as mental illness and people should get a grip. The last two paragraphs are just errant nonsense. How does somebody with paranoid delusions of thinking they are Jesus Christ have anything to do with the suffering caused to a person who feels they are a woman in a man's body? Are you saying they are paranoid schizophrenics? Some Gay people think they are straight? Maybe they are bi - I don't know but where does that come from unless they are in the closet voluntarily and if so that is their choice.

It-is-not-an-illness!

If it is an illnesss, it is only a mental illness - which needs to be treated, not by giving into this 'illness'. You are pretending that it is some sort of chemical illness like a real disease, it is not. It is merely a thought which goes to the extreme.

As for the Jesus Christ part, well whats the difference? they believe they are Jesus Christ just as transsexuals believe they are the opposite sex when in reality they are not; (in the case of a male) they have male DNA, male genes, male hormones and male sex organs and always will be male no matter how many drugs/hormones they pump into themselves to satisfy their mental imagination that they are somehow something different. It would be like myself believing I don't have black hair when I do and I always will have as its in my gene codes.

As for the gay issue, yes i'm telling you - many people believe 100% they are straight until it finally dawns on them that they are anything but, you can search numerous teen forums for that particular case.

The same applies to transsexualism, its a mental thought - not reality.


Yes I think both should be paid for. If somebody loses a leg they get an artificial one. Nobosy would complain about that. Also a mishapen can cause problems with breathing etc.

Yes but that is reality Rosie, if I lose my leg that is reality - transsexualism on the other hand is in the mind, it is not real.

[HotelUser]

It is a chemical reaction mainly which thus influences other areas of your person, transsexuality on the other hand is not influenced at all by chemicals only by thought and the idea that 'I am a man trapped in a womans body' or vice versa. Healthcare should not be influenced by thought/mental issues, it should be based on reality.

The thought that you are the opposite sex is not medical reality, its fantasy/wishful thinking.

Straight relationship arousement: caused by subjective thoughts which trigger hormonal reaction (please see how brain works above)

Gay relationship arousement: caused by subjective thoughts which trigger hormonal reaction (please see how brain works above)

Transgendered relationship arousement: caused by subjective thoughts which trigger hormonal reaction (please see how brain works above)

[Mrs.McCall]

I think the debate on the root of homosexuality is going to reach a dead end. Dan has his opinion. I believe it to be wrong but each to their own. I think what's more important here is the debate on if it should be allowed on the NHS, especially in the current financial climate where staff aren't being paid enough and jobs are being cut.

[HotelUser]

I think the debate on the root of homosexuality is going to reach a dead end. Dan has his opinion. I believe it to be wrong but each to their own. I think what's more important here is the debate on if it should be allowed on the NHS, especially in the current financial climate where staff aren't being paid enough and jobs are being cut.

He has his opinion sure but he's saying being turned on is 10000000% scientific. That's not an opinion - that's just a lack of understanding :P

[FlyingJesus]

Thoughts are chemical reactions Dan

[-:Undertaker:-]

Straight relationship arousement: caused by subjective thoughts which trigger hormonal reaction (please see how brain works above)

Gay relationship arousement: caused by subjective thoughts which trigger hormonal reaction (please see how brain works above)

Transgendered relationship arousement: caused by subjective thoughts which trigger hormonal reaction (please see how brain works above)

The problem being we are not talking about transgendered relationships, their sexual fantasy is irrelevent to this.

If sexual fantasy does play a part in this, then thats a fetish/a sexual preference just as some people are into bondage, some people are into blondes - the list is endless. I'm talking about transsexualism not being a chemical reaction which it is not, it is a mental thought.


Thoughts are chemical reactions Dan

If you want to go into it that deep then almost everything is a chemical reaction, but i'm talking about transsexualism being a thought - not a reality. Homosexuality on the other hand is a reality as its a chemical reaction in the body, uncontrollable by thought.

[Mrs.McCall]

The way I see it, we can't judge something we've never felt ourselves. We don't know why people feel the way they do... and unless you have been through it then I honestly don't think you can say why.

[HotelUser]

The problem being we are not talking about transgendered relationships, their sexual fantasy is irrelevent to this.

If sexual fantasy does play a part in this, then thats a fetish/a sexual preference just as some people are into bondage, some people are into blondes - the list is endless. I'm talking about transsexualism not being a chemical reaction which it is not, it is a mental thought.



If you want to go into it that deep then almost everything is a chemical reaction, but i'm talking about transsexualism being a thought - not a reality. Homosexuality on the other hand is a reality as its a chemical reaction in the body, uncontrollable by thought.

So you're writing off gender disorder, you know, which is something thousands of scientists and phycologists have collaborated on and validated as a genuine disorder as nothing more than sexual fantasies?

On what grounds do you think you can do that :P

[-:Undertaker:-]

So you're writing off gender disorder, you know, which is something thousands of scientists and phycologists have collaborated on and validated as a genuine disorder as nothing more than sexual fantasies?

On what grounds do you think you can do that :P

Because its not chemical thats why, the only disorder it can fall under is a mental disorder which needs to be treated. It may be a chemical thought as Tom says but then everything is if you look at it that way. I'm afraid healthcare shouldn't be guranteed on the grounds of thought but of reality, hence why the comparisons between losing a leg and not being the 'right' sex are absurd.

They feel they are not the right sex in the head - in reality they are the sex they were born as and always will be.

[HotelUser]

Because its not chemical thats why. It may be a chemical thought as Tom says but then everything is if you look at it that way. I'm afraid healthcare shouldn't be guranteed on the grounds of thought but of reality, hence why the comparisons between losing a leg and not being the 'right' sex are absurd.

They feel they are not the right sex in the head - in reality they are the sex they were born as and always will be.

When you get your phycology PhD, Dan, perhaps I will think what you're saying's abit more creditable. For now though I'm more inclined to side with what the majority of the scientific community. I just think you're making incredibly baseless claims here.

[-:Undertaker:-]

When you get your phycology PhD, Dan, perhaps I will think what you're saying's abit more creditable. For now though I'm more inclined to side with what the majority of the scientific community. I just think you're making incredibly baseless claims here.

Well I look forward to you recieving your PhD also.

There is debate on this subject (just as there is on global warming which you'd be led to believe was 100% agreed upon when it is not) between scientists whether it is mental or chemical - so don't simply dismiss my arguments as some bronze age rhetoric, because there are two sides to this debate within the scientific community (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Psychological_and_behavio ral_theories). I side with the psychological side (which you've just mentioned) whereas side with the genetics side.

But don't dismiss my arguments as though they are not backed up, because many back my stance in the scientific community. (see link)

[HotelUser]

Well I look forward to you recieving your PhD also.

There is debate on this subject (just as there is on global warming which you'd be led to believe was 100% agreed upon when it is not) between scientists whether it is mental or chemical - so don't simply dismiss my arguments as some bronze age rhetoric, because there are two sides to this debate within the scientific community (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Psychological_and_behavio ral_theories). I side with the psychological side (which you've just mentioned) whereas you appear to side with the genetics side.

There's also a group of people who think 9/11 was planned by the American government, and this group (http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/) seems to think the world is flat and surrounded by a giant ice wall.

Nothing is agreed upon 100%, but pretty darn every scientist thinks global warming is real, and pretty darn every phycologist thinks gender disorder is a genuine disorder.

[-:Undertaker:-]

There's also a group of people who think 9/11 was planned by the American government, and this group (http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/) seems to think the world is flat and surrounded by a giant ice wall.

Nothing is agreed upon 100%, but pretty darn every scientist thinks global warming is real, and pretty darn every phycologist thinks gender disorder is a genuine disorder.

It is nowhere near, see you are showing ignorance again by trying to make my opinions on transsexualism and global warming to be a small minority flat earth idea - thousands of scientists signed the Oregon Petition yet you think its near to 100% that agree with global warming because the media the the political class have made it out that way when the reality is totally different. Look into it instead of taking in the the popular PC line just because the showcase 'experts' say it is so, the same experts who said in the 1980s that we were entering a new Ice Age due to the actions of man.

The same experts incidently who claimed hundreds of thousands would be dying on the streets due to swine flu.

[FlyingJesus]

If you want to go into it that deep then almost everything is a chemical reaction, but i'm talking about transsexualism being a thought - not a reality. Homosexuality on the other hand is a reality as its a chemical reaction in the body, uncontrollable by thought.

First off you need to stop stating your opinions as though they were medical facts (unless somehow you have genuine answers to the intricacies of the human mind and just haven't got around to telling the researchers and professionals) as it makes your points look like unfounded drivel.
Secondly I'm still unsure as to why you're using homosexuality as a counterpoint to transexualism, when one is entirely about relationships and sex whilst the other concerns the entire social spectrum as well as being a total identity. Are you trying to show that homosexuality is some sort of medical disease by showing that transexualism isn't?
Thirdly, you're incorrect is assuming that transexuals are simply living out a delusion, it goes far beyond the physical problem of having a different body type and as I said above encompasses absolutely everything about that person's identity. It's not something you can change with a different lifestyle or way of thinking - or at least, certainly not any easier than the forceful and damaging "therapy" you can go through in some places to "cure" homosexuality. If you truly believe that thoughts (as opposed to delusions) are not a form of reality then I wonder as to your lack of imagination

[HotelUser]

It is nowhere near, see you are showing your ignorance again - thousands of scientists signed the Oregon Petition yet you think its near to 100% that agree with global warming because the media the the political class have made it out that way. Look into it instead of taking in the the popular PC line just because the showcase 'experts' say it is so, the same experts who said in the 1980s that we were entering a new Ice Age due to the actions of man.

Perhaps it's you who should do more research (http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-19/world/eco.globalwarmingsurvey_1_global-warming-climate-science-human-activity?_s=PM:WORLD) before you call me ignorant, especially when you're making facts up about how the body works!

[-:Undertaker:-]

First off you need to stop stating your opinions as though they were medical facts (unless somehow you have genuine answers to the intricacies of the human mind and just haven't got around to telling the researchers and professionals) as it makes your points look like unfounded drivel.

I have stated facts or what I believe to be facts just as you all have done so, again I point out the fact that some believe its genetic while I and many others believe it is a mental state and has nothing to do with genes - the 'professionals' are not all on your side as you are trying to make out.


Secondly I'm still unsure as to why you're using homosexuality as a counterpoint to transexualism, when one is entirely about relationships and sex whilst the other concerns the entire social spectrum as well as being a total identity. Are you trying to show that homosexuality is some sort of medical disease by showing that transexualism isn't?

No i'm using it as a comparison, it was brought in earlier to me by somebody trying to make out as though i'm taking a look-down upon view which was used on homosexuals in the past. I have pointed out that homosexuality is a chemical fact, whereas transsexuality is not hence why they are not the sex they wish to be in their thoughts/mind.

A very simple difference.


Thirdly, you're incorrect is assuming that transexuals are simply living out a delusion, it goes far beyond the physical problem of having a different body type and as I said above encompasses absolutely everything about that person's identity. It's not something you can change with a different lifestyle or way of thinking - or at least, certainly not any easier than the forceful and damaging "therapy" you can go through in some places to "cure" homosexuality. If you truly believe that thoughts (as opposed to delusions) are not a form of reality then I wonder as to your lack of imagination

What do you mean a different body type? they were born as a certain sex, they are that sex no matter what their mind may like to think otherwise. Just as I may think or wish I had blonde hair, but yet I don't because my genes make it so that I have black hair and always will do no matter what else I would like to think or no matter what operations I have or how I dye it - I will always have black hair.


Perhaps it's you who should do more research (http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-19/world/eco.globalwarmingsurvey_1_global-warming-climate-science-human-activity?_s=PM:WORLD) before you call me ignorant, especially when you're making facts up about how the body works!

I have done research into it (and I used to believe it), the same majority of 'experts' agreed back in 1980s that an Ice Age was on its way - turned out to be false. The best way to examine it is not by looking at temperatures (which how you measure and graph them is a very debated issue) but of the rocks and the history of the climate.

The Oregon declaration/Leipzig declaration.

The very fact that the 'experts' you oh so admire were caught fixing data in the climategate scandel should put some holes in your conventional line of thought, with one scientist (if we can genuinely call him that) even stating that they couldn't explain the falling temperatures.

[HotelUser]

I have stated facts or what I believe to be facts just as you all have done so, again I point out the fact that some believe its genetic while I and many others believe it is a mental state and has nothing to do with genes - the 'professionals' are not all on your side as you are trying to make out.



No i'm using it as a comparison, it was brought in earlier to me by somebody trying to make out as though i'm taking a look-down upon view which was used on homosexuals in the past. I have pointed out that homosexuality is a chemical fact, whereas transsexuality is not hence why they are not the sex they wish to be in their thoughts/mind.

A very simple difference.



What do you mean a different body type? they were born as a certain sex, they are that sex no matter what their mind may like to think otherwise. Just as I may think or wish I had blonde hair, but yet I don't because my genes make it so that I have black hair and always will do no matter what else I would like to think or no matter what operations I have or how I dye it - I will always have black hair.



I have done research into it (and I used to believe it), the same majority of 'experts' agreed back in 1980s that an Ice Age was on its way - turned out to be false. The best way to examine it is not by looking at temperatures (which how you measure and graph them is a very debated issue) but of the rocks and the history of the climate.

The Oregon declaration/Leipzig declaration.


When major governments and their leaders are confident enough to say it's real it's likely real.

[Catzsy]

It is a chemical reaction mainly which thus influences other areas of your person, transsexuality on the other hand is not influenced at all by chemicals only by thought and the idea that 'I am a man trapped in a womans body' or vice versa. Healthcare should not be influenced by thought/mental issues, it should be based on reality.

The thought that you are the opposite sex is not medical reality, its fantasy/wishful thinking.



The difference is that those people paid for it themselves, and cosmestic surgery is rather different to taking hormones and changing organs around in order to imitate the opposite sex; personally I find that kind of surgery deeply distasteful.



Whether I represent or say things that conflict with the idea of an LGBT 'community' is irrelevent, the idea that because you are gay means you have to have militant gay stances on every issue or question the right of speech of those who don't agree with homosexuality/transsexualism is a strand of militantism.

I for one don't agree (on a personal level) with gay marriage or civil partnerships as I feel marriage is the bedrock of the family, I also do not agree with gay adoption and thus wouldn't do it myself. On the other hand (with the marriage issue) I also respect the idea that thats my choice and the choice should be open to those who do want to get married but it should also be there for those who don't wish to perform such ceremonies (ie the Church).

But back to the transseuxal issue as thats more of a diversion; I don't agree with transsexualism, but also respect the right that if somebody should want to carry this out to their body they should have every right to do so - however not at the expense of the taxpayer especially at a time when cancer drugs are being denied to cancer patients who are in real need of help.

That is my issue with this.



I agree with the NHS point, it was wrong of them to do it in the first place. However the second part, you are basically giving into blackmail - if somebody is willing to take their life then thats a choice and not a condition.

There is no aspect of 'saving a life' as the life is not in danger, unless of course he wishes to take it himself.



Its a mental problem yes, he feels himself to be a woman when in reality he is not. I gave the Jesus Christ example before, some people genuinely believe they are the son of god - however you'd quite rightly dismiss them as nuts. This is the same thing, just for idealogical purposes we're stampeided into pretending transsexualism is some sort of disease.



Homosexuality is chemical, transsexualism is not - one is the chemical reaction of the body, the other is a thought.



The only 'evidence' you provided before was a sob-site which pretends or makes out that transsexualism is some form of disease rather than what it is in reality, a mental thought where the subject actually thinks they are the opposite sex. They may be similar to the opposite sex yes in personality just as many gay guys are - but thats called being feminine as its part of your personality.



It-is-not-an-illness!

If it is an illnesss, it is only a mental illness - which needs to be treated, not by giving into this 'illness'. You are pretending that it is some sort of chemical illness like a real disease, it is not. It is merely a thought which goes to the extreme.

As for the Jesus Christ part, well whats the difference? they believe they are Jesus Christ just as transsexuals believe they are the opposite sex when in reality they are not; (in the case of a male) they have male DNA, male genes, male hormones and male sex organs and always will be male no matter how many drugs/hormones they pump into themselves to satisfy their mental imagination that they are somehow something different. It would be like myself believing I don't have black hair when I do and I always will have as its in my gene codes.

As for the gay issue, yes i'm telling you - many people believe 100% they are straight until it finally dawns on them that they are anything but, you can search numerous teen forums for that particular case.

The same applies to transsexualism, its a mental thought - not reality.



Yes but that is reality Rosie, if I lose my leg that is reality - transsexualism on the other hand is in the mind, it is not real.


What you don't seem to accept is that mental illness is an illness and the causes of that have to be addressed. In the case of people who think they are Jesus Christ they don't wake up every morning and think they are. It is a paranoid dillusion that they suffer from in one of their 'episodes' that can be dealt with by medication. It is not possible for them to be Jesus Christ is it? As far as Transexuals are concerned every minute of their waking hours they feel like they are in the wrong body. Either a male in a female body or vice versa. The fact is it is possible to let them have their wish to change sex allievating a burdon on the NHS which iwould probably even greater treating them for their depression all their lives. Their road is not easy and it takes years to get clearance for any sort of operation. It is 'real' to them Dan as much as Dan is being Dan to you.

[-:Undertaker:-]

When major governments and their leaders are confident enough to say it's real it's likely real.

Do you realise how much money they are making out of this? don't be foolish its absolute nonsense. I revert back to the climategate, where they actually admit the temperatures have been falling and they cannot explain it - again i'd ask you to read into it, you might wake up.


What you don't seem to accept is that mental illness is an illness and the causes of that have to be addressed. In the case of people who think they are Jesus Christ they don't wake up every morning and think they are. It is a paranoid dillusion that they suffer from in one of their 'episodes' that can be dealt with by medication.
It is not possible for them to be Jesus Christ is it? As far as Transexuals are concerned every minute of their waking hours they feel like they are in the wrong body. Either a male in a female body or vice versa. The fact is it is possible to let them have their wish. Their road is not easy and it takes years to get clearance for any sort of operation. It is 'real' to them Dan as much as Dan is being Dan to you.

I do accept that - infact i've been arguing throughout that transsexualism is a warping of the mind rather than an actual chemical condition or disease. I don't feel surgery is the way to solve a mental illness as by giving into that mental illness you are accepting it as reality. It is possible for them to have their wish yes, but I don't see why I or anybody else should pay for it - just as if I wished for a new set of teeth I couldn't have it.

But then again, thats another whole argument on healthcare.

[FlyingJesus]

What do you mean a different body type? they were born as a certain sex, they are that sex no matter what their mind may like to think otherwise.

Plenty of people are born damaged or disabled, whether mentally or physically. Going by your logic we should do nothing to help anyone with a birth defect because they were born in such a condition


Just as I may think or wish I had blonde hair, but yet I don't because my genes make it so that I have black hair and always will do no matter what else I would like to think or no matter what operations I have or how I dye it - I will always have black hair.

Thought you didn't believe it to be a genetic problem? If we're to believe you on that then your analogy is not useful to this debate

[Catzsy]

Do you realise how much money they are making out of this? don't be foolish its absolute nonsense. I revert back to the climategate, where they actually admit the temperatures have been falling and they cannot explain it - again i'd ask you to read into it, you might wake up.



I do accept that - infact i've been arguing throughout that transsexualism is a warping of the mind rather than an actual chemical condition or disease. I don't feel surgery is the way to solve a mental illness as by giving into that mental illness you are accepting it as reality. It is possible for them to have their wish yes, but I don't see why I or anybody else should pay for it - just as if I wished for a new set of teeth I couldn't have it.

But then again, thats another whole argument on healthcare.

'Warping of the Mind'? If you feel it from the moment you were born and all the time - it is real. I don't think they should be top of the queue but they have every right to be on a waiting list having satisfied many health professionals that this is the answer. What's your opinion on my statement that it could save the NHS in the long run as it allieviates the pressure on them having to be treated for depression, suicide attempts?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Plenty of people are born damaged or disabled, whether mentally or physically. Going by your logic we should do nothing to help anyone with a birth defect because they were born in such a condition

Thats a good point but that is in order to correct a disadvantage whereas there is no 'disvantage' in being a certain sex to the extent where somebody is brain damaged. Brain damage/disability mentally is different from transsexualism because transsexualism is not placed upon you, I believe its a thought whereas mental disability is moreso chemical.


Thought you didn't believe it to be a genetic problem? If we're to believe you on that then your analogy is not useful to this debate

I don't believe its a genetic problem, whereas these people do think it is a genetic problem that they were born the wrong sex just as I could think I was born with the wrong hair colour - they need mental help, not body mutilation.


When major governments and their leaders are confident enough to say it's real it's likely real.

I didn't do this bit justice so i'll just do a short list; Iraq and its WMD - didn't exist // Global temperatures rising - actually are falling // The Common Market - the actual baseplan for a federal Europe // Gulf of Tonkin incident - was spun into something it was not in order to go to war.. the list goes on and on, its endless.

So when government says or does anything, you should be naturally and instantly suspicious.


'Warping of the Mind'? If you feel it from the moment you were born and all the time - it is real. I don't think they should be top of the queue but they have every right to be on a waiting list having satisfied many health professionals that this is the answer. What's your opinion on my statement that it could save the NHS in the long run as it allieviates the pressure on them having to be treated for depression, suicide attempts?

My opinion is that at the moment we are led into assessing them and thus catering for the thoughts/feeling we have, the issue with suicide - i'm sorry but I see that as a form of blackmail, nobody is forced into taking suicide - it is a choice.

That is another issue as is with crime, we are required to pretend that these things are 'diseases'.

[Andeeh]

Its an absoloute ******* joke, sure have your surgery or whatever or councelling but please not at the expense that could actually save another persons life

[Catzsy]

Thats a good point but that is in order to correct a disadvantage whereas there is no 'disvantage' in being a certain sex to the extent where somebody is brain damaged. Brain damage/disability mentally is different from transsexualism because transsexualism is not placed upon you, I believe its a thought whereas mental disability is moreso chemical.



I don't believe its a genetic problem, whereas these people do think it is a genetic problem that they were born the wrong sex just as I could think I was born with the wrong hair colour - they need mental help, not body mutilation.



I didn't do this bit justice so i'll just do a short list; Iraq and its WMD - didn't exist // Global temperatures rising - actually are falling // The Common Market - the actual baseplan for a federal Europe // Gulf of Tonkin incident - was spun into something it was not in order to go to war.. the list goes on and on, its endless.

So when government says or does anything, you should be naturally and instantly suspicious.



My opinion is that at the moment we are led into assessing them and thus catering for the thoughts/feeling we have, the issue with suicide - i'm sorry but I see that as a form of blackmail, nobody is forced into taking suicide - it is a choice.

That is another issue as is with crime, we are required to pretend that these things are 'diseases'.

Mental illness is a 'disease' of the mind. So what you are saying basically is that anybody with a mental illness should not be catered for. What about body dismorphia ( anorexia and bulemia). That is in the mind too and can lead to suiscide. What is so different, Dan unless you have a fear of anybody that is different and doesn't fit a stereotype.
@ Andeeh nobody is suggesting they should have surgery at the expense of another's life. The article does not say that either.

[Dean]

I don't believe that this sort of thing should be paid by the NHS. :/

[TheEclipse]

Woah, your commentary on this is highly disturbing and offensive.