Reputation

[Chippiewill]

After hearing that Jin wanted to help newer users with reputation or something, it got me thinking about how it would be possible to make a fairer more balanced system that wouldn't just reward making loads of posts over a long time.

Instead of the displayed reputation (ie the green blocks) being determined by your number of reputation points, it could instead be determined by either:

a) Rep Points / Days since joining the forum (Rewards not being inactive)
b) Rep Points / Number of posts (Would reward those who post in spam a lot, unless there's a count including spam hidden somewhere)
c) A combination of the two.

This would provide a more accurate representation of the 'reputation' of the user rather than their ability to make lots and lots of posts and occasionally make a good one, and would also mean that a member who joined this forum yesterday and makes quality posts could have more reputation than someone who joined a few years ago and makes pretty horrendous posts (Such as myself :P).

I'm not sure if this is abusable or not, or if it's even possible to do at all but it's worth asking and for a forum of this age I think it's a good idea.

Thoughts?

[AgnesIO]

I can see the idea, but honestly I think it should be left alone.

There ks nothing wrong with the current system - I personally think reputation is fine how it is!

[benjamin]

why fix something that isn't broken? i remember for so so so long, years ago everyone was all in a state over it. now it's running smoothly you may as well leave it.

[nvrspk4]

I understand where you're going with this, but first of all it might be overcomplicated to implement. Second of all, I have to disagree with the post thing as the number of posts people make varies, and I don't think it's a good metric to judge the reputation of a user by. Third, I disagree with the number of days as someone who makes only very valid posts but does it infrequently will probably have less reputation than someone who posts all the time, including in threads where rep is usually given out quite a bit.

In short, I like the direction you're going with the ideas and the intention behind the fixes, I just don't think that these fixes would be the best way to solve the problem (and I'm not fully aware of how major the problem is right now).

[AgnesIO]

I understand where you're going with this, but first of all it might be overcomplicated to implement. Second of all, I have to disagree with the post thing as the number of posts people make varies, and I don't think it's a good metric to judge the reputation of a user by. Third, I disagree with the number of days as someone who makes only very valid posts but does it infrequently will probably have less reputation than someone who posts all the time, including in threads where rep is usually given out quite a bit.

In short, I like the direction you're going with the ideas and the intention behind the fixes, I just don't think that these fixes would be the best way to solve the problem (and I'm not fully aware of how major the problem is right now).

I do not believe there is a problem. Just seemed to be due to admins having 50 rep for a short while.

I don't think new users are at any disadvantage - infact compared to when I joined they get rep points etc very easily!

[Inseriousity.]

It's not like rep is something you ask for, it's something you have to just go along with and earn as you go along. Make constructive/funny/good posts and someone might just give you a +rep for it. So I do wonder how many people actively search for more rep or it's just something that doesn't really interest them and accumulates over time, thereby rendering any changes to it pointless.

[Chippiewill]

I understand where you're going with this, but first of all it might be overcomplicated to implement.
If vBulletin is coded anywhere like phpbb3 is you could do it by changing one line of code. But I have no knowledge of how vB works.


Second of all, I have to disagree with the post thing as the number of posts people make varies, and I don't think it's a good metric to judge the reputation of a user by.
Could you elaborate, I don't quite get what you mean. Isn't the whole point that the number of posts people make vary?


Third, I disagree with the number of days as someone who makes only very valid posts but does it infrequently will probably have less reputation than someone who posts all the time, including in threads where rep is usually given out quite a bit.
I was a bit unsure on it but it would promote being active which isn't exactly a bad thing.


In short, I like the direction you're going with the ideas and the intention behind the fixes, I just don't think that these fixes would be the best way to solve the problem (and I'm not fully aware of how major the problem is right now).
It's not a major thing but Jin brought it up and at this point I don't really view it as possible to catch up to the likes of Neversoft in terms of reputation points so making it apply to the amount you earn per day or by the amount you got per post seemed like a way to negate the bonus of having been a member for longer. I feel it would probably better reflect user's opinions of the person rather than an accumulated total over time.

[AgnesIO]

It's not like rep is something you ask for, it's something you have to just go along with and earn as you go along. Make constructive/funny/good posts and someone might just give you a +rep for it. So I do wonder how many people actively search for more rep or it's just something that doesn't really interest them and accumulates over time, thereby rendering any changes to it pointless.

I do like gaining rep points - infact I was looking forward to being on par with agms etc - which I would have been in the next few weeks if they didn't change it :L

On the other hand, I am not that bothered for it - it really isn't that big a deal.

[benjamin]

If vBulletin is coded anywhere like phpbb3 is you could do it by changing one line of code. But I have no knowledge of how vB works.


Could you elaborate, I don't quite get what you mean. Isn't the whole point that the number of posts people make vary?


I was a bit unsure on it but it would promote being active which isn't exactly a bad thing.


It's not a major thing but Jin brought it up and at this point I don't really view it as possible to catch up to the likes of Neversoft in terms of reputation points so making it apply to the amount you earn per day or by the amount you got per post seemed like a way to negate the bonus of having been a member for longer. I feel it would probably better reflect user's opinions of the person rather than an accumulated total over time.

you say it'll be hard to catch up with the likes of neversoft - but the thing is he's been on the forum (i'm guessing 05?) coming up 6 years maybe, and has always been an active member who makes good posts... therefore receives a lot of rep.

[Inseriousity.]

I do like gaining rep points - infact I was looking forward to being on par with agms etc - which I would have been in the next few weeks if they didn't change it :L

On the other hand, I am not that bothered for it - it really isn't that big a deal.

Yes but what I mean is you don't go round making posts crossing your fingers for some rep. That's just a bonus if it happens to come your way. I could be wrong though but I'd be very worried about someone who only posts for +rep on an online forum :D

[AgnesIO]

Yes but what I mean is you don't go round making posts crossing your fingers for some rep. That's just a bonus if it happens to come your way. I could be wrong though but I'd be very worried about someone who only posts for +rep on an online forum :D

Yeah, who'd do that? :S

Joking. But no I see what you mean - I highly doubt anyone posts just for the rep constantly (obviously if someone offers rep for filling out a survey or helping the user is more inclined to do so), but in general I don't think anyone does :p

[Chippiewill]

you say it'll be hard to catch up with the likes of neversoft - but the thing is he's been on the forum (i'm guessing 05?) coming up 6 years maybe, and has always been an active member who makes good posts... therefore receives a lot of rep.
But that's my point, it would be possible that someone who had been around for a few months but was respected as much as Neversoft could have the same displayed reputation. Your displayed reputation would be almost a direct correlation to how much people actually respect you which I think would be pretty cool.

[Nicola]

I understand where you are coming from but I don't think it needs changing. As Nvr said it just seems a bit over complicated and I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement either.

You already get rep from posting a certain amount and being part of the forum for a certain amount of time, you just get it in smaller amounts than you are suggesting. So I think using it to also get your blocks up is just a bit too much.

Personally I feel that the forum and it's members are a lot more relaxed nowadays and it is far much easier to get +repped today than it used to be, so I don't think the whole "making things easier for other members" is really needed or really an issue right now.

[AgnesIO]

But that's my point, it would be possible that someone who had been around for a few months but was respected as much as Neversoft could have the same displayed reputation. Your displayed reputation would be almost a direct correlation to how much people actually respect you which I think would be pretty cool.

I personally think it is fine how it is.

If a person is as respected as let's say, Neversoft, they will be respected that much - and probably be +repped a lot. However you forget that many users have earnt the rep they have, so I think changing it suddenly making it even more worthless would be a bit unfair on the users with a high rep.

Then again it is only rep :L

[ChickenFaces]

Rep seems fine to me. Changing it will only make people start complaining about it and I'm kind of sick of hearing all that moaning.

[benjamin]

But that's my point, it would be possible that someone who had been around for a few months but was respected as much as Neversoft could have the same displayed reputation. Your displayed reputation would be almost a direct correlation to how much people actually respect you which I think would be pretty cool.

but that's the thing - in all fairness neversoft probably is more 'respected' more than someone who's been here a month or two. because he's been here considerably longer, he's put considerably more into the forum (so to speak).

if a new person is respected so much, then their rep will increase quickly - the fact that people have higher rep powers (like neversoft, me, flyingjesus (off the top of my head)) will help their rep go up quicker, too.

[AgnesIO]

I understand where you are coming from but I don't think it needs changing. As Nvr said it just seems a bit over complicated and I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement either.

You already get rep from posting a certain amount and being part of the forum for a certain amount of time, you just get it in smaller amounts than you are suggesting. So I think using it to also get your blocks up is just a bit too much.

Personally I feel that the forum and it's members are a lot more relaxed nowadays and it is far much easier to get +repped today than it used to be, so I don't think the whole "making things easier for other members" is really needed or really an issue right now.

Not important, but I am surprised. I think up until the last couple of months the rep system is used far less than it used to be.

[Chippiewill]

I understand where you are coming from but I don't think it needs changing. As Nvr said it just seems a bit over complicated and I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement either.

I imagine it would be something like adding one line of code along the lines of:
$reputation = $reputation / $postcount;

I'm not sure how vB stores it's variables but it would basically consist of that, although it would probably need a constant to prevent it frequently becoming less than one.


You already get rep from posting a certain amount and being part of the forum for a certain amount of time, you just get it in smaller amounts than you are suggesting. So I think using it to also get your blocks up is just a bit too much.
I'm not suggesting getting rep from posting or being a member of the forum for a period of time at all? I'm suggesting a change to the way it is displayed.


Personally I feel that the forum and it's members are a lot more relaxed nowadays and it is far much easier to get +repped today than it used to be, so I don't think the whole "making things easier for other members" is really needed or really an issue right now.
That wasn't really my concern, but at the moment you could be just as respected as Neversoft and get for example twenty reputation points per day but because you joined many years later, they'd always be 10,000 reputation points ahead.

[benjamin]

just realised i'm rambling and not making much sense, but if anyone can make sense of my previous post - then kudos to you.

[Chippiewill]

just realised i'm rambling and not making much sense, but if anyone can make sense of my previous post - then kudos to you.
I think what you were trying to say is that new members outside of the 'elite' would have their reputation rise faster because the 'elite' can only be repped by (number of elite)-1 where as the new member could be repped by the whole elite.

Or at least I think that's what you were trying to say.

[benjamin]

I think what you were trying to say is that new members outside of the 'elite' would have their reputation rise faster because the 'elite' can only be repped by (number of elite)-1 where as the new member could be repped by the whole elite.

Or at least I think that's what you were trying to say.

kind of, yeah. but on a more wide scale. basically what i'm just trying to say is that if someone deserves the rep, then they'll get it. and the fact that there are quite a few active members with a high reputation power - will make others rep go up a lot quicker.

but yeah i agree with the other few people who have said that rep isn't what it used to be - no one cares as much any more.

[Chippiewill]

kind of, yeah. but on a more wide scale. basically what i'm just trying to say is that if someone deserves the rep, then they'll get it. and the fact that there are quite a few active members with a high reputation power - will make others rep go up a lot quicker.Ahh, but if they're equally respected then they'd always stay the same amount behind a person who is equally respected which would be mis-representative of the respect that they each have.


but yeah i agree with the other few people who have said that rep isn't what it used to be - no one cares as much any more. I think this would increase the importance of rep because suddenly people who joined two years ago rather than six would be on par with them and they'd actually be able to compare it.

[Hecktix]

It's interesting to hear what Nicola says about the reputation system as she's the one who sees what kind of rep people leave on a daily basis with dealing with the report reputation thread.

I think the idea is a good idea but I think it's effort where effort isn't needed and that there are more important areas we could put our coding task force to, for instance when we appoint a new coder for the forum (very soon ;) there's a tonne of bugs to fix and a few other ideas we've wanted to implement for a while too which rank above this.

I think the more obvious thing to do would be to encourage users to use the reputation system more, as I feel the system we have is quite good and should benefit all users in the way it's set up, afterall rep is really to encourage good posting, we only really give rep elsewhere to boost figures to make people more likely to use their rep.

I think a good old fashioned campaign to persuade people to use the rep system would be a good idea before persuing any further changes to the rep system, for now anyway.

[benjamin]

Ahh, but if they're equally respected then they'd always stay the same amount behind a person who is equally respected which would be mis-representative of the respect that they each have.

I think this would increase the importance of rep because suddenly people who joined two years ago rather than six would be on par with them and they'd actually be able to compare it.
i do see where you're coming from, but then there is still the fact about how long someone has been on the forum and the amount of posts they have. when the new person has the same amount of posts and has been on the forum for the same amount of time - who knows how much they will have then?

(i know you mentioned something about join date and amount of posts, but it's late and i didn't quite understand - so apologies if that comment covered that)

[Chippiewill]

Ok, because I don't think some people understand.

I am proposing that before the amount of reputation points you have is submitted to the function which works out how many green blocks you should have it is divided by either:

a) Your post count
b) Days since you joined HabboxForum

If vBulletin is coded in any sensible way then this would involve adding one line of code and would be completely secure and wouldn't take up vast hours of coding time.

This in no way gives people more rep points for being around for longer or for more posts (Which is the impression I'm getting from some) but would increase a displayed reputation for making higher quality posts (Post count option) or for being more active (Day count option).

[Hecktix]

Ok, because I don't think some people understand.

I am proposing that before the amount of reputation points you have is submitted to the function which works out how many green blocks you should have it is divided by either:

a) Your post count
b) Days since you joined HabboxForum

If vBulletin is coded in any sensible way then this would involve adding one line of code and would be completely secure and wouldn't take up vast hours of coding time.

This in no way gives people more rep points for being around for longer or for more posts (Which is the impression I'm getting from some) but would increase a displayed reputation for making higher quality posts (Post count option) or for being more active (Day count option).

I understood what you meant I just think it's a bit over complicated when the system works fine as it is, really :P Don't fix what isn't broken & all that.

[FlyingJesus]

it would be possible that someone who had been around for a few months but was respected as much as Neversoft

I don't believe this would be possible unless the person in question was some sort of real life celebrity tbh - I think it'd be a huge disrespect to Chirs' contributions on the forum to be implied as equal to someone who's only just turned up, and having rep points / post count or join date would essentially mean that if one of us no-lifers repped a new member on their first post their reputation would show as being around 30x what ours is just for saying hello. Also if it was done with join date as a divisive factor it would mean that everyone's rep would dwindle over time, and inactive former legends like Smiddy who hasn't been on since 2009 would eventually be made to look as though he'd never done anything for the forum and wasn't wildly popular

[Neversoft]

That wasn't really my concern, but at the moment you could be just as respected as Neversoft and get for example twenty reputation points per day but because you joined many years later, they'd always be 10,000 reputation points ahead.

What is wrong with that? As I said to Jin the other day, the reputation hierarchy on this forum is incredibly average and everything is as it should be - nothing needs changing. On nearly every single forum that uses the reputation system older users who have stayed active will naturally have higher reputation and as Ben says, they have all put more into the forum (so to speak) so really I don't see why anyone should have a problem with that. These days you can pretty much tell if a newer member is respected or popular by looking at their rep blocks anyway.

[Grig]

At the end of the day, reputation should be for useful reasons. I know when nvrspk4 was in his AGM/GM roles he cracked upon people giving out useless reputation and cleared useless rep from users. I don't think the system should actually be changed, but rather could be taken care of in a more vigilant way like it was in the olden days. I would be the first to admit that I have a reputation or point or two from some completely useless post in a staff spam thread.

As for the current system, I do not see a problem.

[Josh]

People with high rep (I'll be a sheep and say Neversoft) have earnt that rep. I don't think it would be very fair for years of effort put into the forum to be earnt in a matter of months/weeks/days.

[RandomManJay]

I completely agree.

We've presently got quite a stable Rep system at the moment and there's no point in changing it unless serious issues arise from it. Also, like FlyingJesus said, users would have to contribute more and more as their account gets older, or contribute more meaningful posts in order to compensate for the progression of thier account and the regression of their Rep power. And as their power isn't as static, new users won't be able to tell who was well known in a time beforehand.

It would also be like saying to every single user on the forum that now that they're older, they have to contribute a lot more otherwise they're going have their Rep taken away from them, which isn't really fair on anyone, be it a high contributor with loads of rep, or vise-versa.


At the end of the day, reputation should be for useful reasons. I know when nvrspk4 was in his AGM/GM roles he cracked upon people giving out useless reputation and cleared useless rep from users. I don't think the system should actually be changed, but rather could be taken care of in a more vigilant way like it was in the olden days. I would be the first to admit that I have a reputation or point or two from some completely useless post in a staff spam thread.

As for the current system, I do not see a problem.

[Chippiewill]

I don't believe this would be possible unless the person in question was some sort of real life celebrity tbh
Well exactly, it's quite unlikely that they'd get to a very high reputation quickly , what I'm saying is that suddenly it's possible if they are (Somehow) as respected.


I think it'd be a huge disrespect to Chirs' contributions on the forum to be implied as equal to someone who's only just turned up
Most respect is earned and that difference would remain , in order to achieve the same level a new user would have to make their posts of a higher quality.


and having rep points / post count or join date would essentially mean that if one of us no-lifers repped a new member on their first post their reputation would show as being around 30x what ours is just for saying hello. That was a concern of mine and I do have a solution to that but that would actually be slightly complicated to implement unlike my current proposal (Although it still wouldn't take more than half an hour) which would involve caching the rep total over 100 days, however that might tax the server a bit too much.


Also if it was done with join date as a divisive factor it would mean that everyone's rep would dwindle over time, and inactive former legends like Smiddy who hasn't been on since 2009 would eventually be made to look as though he'd never done anything for the forum and wasn't wildly popular
That was my intention, it would encourage people to remain active, it's not news that Habbox is less active than it was a few years ago.


What is wrong with that? As I said to Jin the other day, the reputation hierarchy on this forum is incredibly average and everything is as it should be - nothing needs changing. On nearly every single forum that uses the reputation system older users who have stayed active will naturally have higher reputation and as Ben says, they have all put more into the forum (so to speak) so really I don't see why anyone should have a problem with that.
I never doubted it wasn't average and as I said your long term contributions would still be reflected in the amount you're repped.


These days you can pretty much tell if a newer member is respected or popular by looking at their rep blocks anyway.
Although you'd still have to compare it to their join date or number of posts ;)


At the end of the day, reputation should be for useful reasons. I know when nvrspk4 was in his AGM/GM roles he cracked upon people giving out useless reputation and cleared useless rep from users. I don't think the system should actually be changed, but rather could be taken care of in a more vigilant way like it was in the olden days. I would be the first to admit that I have a reputation or point or two from some completely useless post in a staff spam thread.This would be a good thing to implement in my opinion but would be difficult to achieve.


People with high rep (I'll be a sheep and say Neversoft) have earnt that rep. I don't think it would be very fair for years of effort put into the forum to be earnt in a matter of months/weeks/days.
Covered this point above.



We've presently got quite a stable Rep system at the moment and there's no point in changing it unless serious issues arise from it. Also, like FlyingJesus said, users would have to contribute more and more as their account gets older, or contribute more meaningful posts in order to compensate for the progression of thier account and the regression of their Rep power. And as their power isn't as static, new users won't be able to tell who was well known in a time beforehand. It would also be like saying to every single user on the forum that now that they're older, they have to contribute a lot more otherwise they're going have their Rep taken away from them, which isn't really fair on anyone, be it a high contributor with loads of rep, or vise-versa.I don't get that at all, they'd have to just be as active as they always have to retain the same displayed rep.

I can't say I'm surprised at how unwilling older members are to this, as a contrast it would be nice to see some posts from newer users. Please don't be shy, this thread is almost entirely aimed at benefiting you!

[GommeInc]

Don't fix something that isn't broken, especially when it was only repaired last year :P

[Neversoft]

Although you'd still have to compare it to their join date or number of posts ;)

And that's too hard, is it? :P

[Chippiewill]

And that's too hard, is it? :P

My method involves having it 'hardwired' as it were and also acts as sort of an extension of the green bars :P

Management, please don't stamp it as a bad idea until a few newer users can respond.

[AgnesIO]

Sorry Chippiewill, I just think it is fine as it is.

I know making new users feel good and equal etcetera is important, but people tend to forget the vital balance. It is all well and good making new users feel amazing (although I really don't think it does), but you need to remember the old members - who whether you like them or not, have kept Habbox going and made it what it is today.

[le harry]

I wouldn't be too thrilled if some new member had the same rep as I within a few months. I don't care how good your posts are - stay active on the forums and you'll soon move up the reputation ranks.

[Catzsy]

I wouldn't be too thrilled if some new member had the same rep as I within a few months. I don't care how good your posts are - stay active on the forums and you'll soon move up the reputation ranks.

I have to say this with Neversoft's response does it for me. There was a radical change in rep a few years ago which moved everybody down although it was done for a good reason that time.
Some of us not only have been active and posting for years but also have the same account so the rep we have is just reward for that. It is just fine as it is in my view. :)

[Josh]

My method involves having it 'hardwired' as it were and also acts as sort of an extension of the green bars :P

Management, please don't stamp it as a bad idea until a few newer users can respond.

I can actually consider myself a new user in comparison to the other big guns on this forum.

[AgnesIO]

My method involves having it 'hardwired' as it were and also acts as sort of an extension of the green bars :P

Management, please don't stamp it as a bad idea until a few newer users can respond.

Newer users may respond, however the older users should have just as big a say, or maybe an even bigger say in this particular feedback thread imo.

Also, the fact hardly any new users HAVE responded to this date suggests it isn't making them too sad!

[Alex3213]

Newer users may respond, however the older users should have just as big a say, or maybe an even bigger say in this particular feedback thread imo.

Also, the fact hardly any new users HAVE responded to this date suggests it isn't making them too sad!

Yeah I agree with this really- both points. Also I think "new users" is far too vague. Like Josh, I count him as a new user. 8 to 9 months- that's not a long time considering some people have been here for over 6. Personally anyone who has joined less than a year ago is a new user in this scenario. This means new users have posted or at least that's what is being implied and all in all: it's just reputation- it doesn't need changing imho.

[AgnesIO]

Yeah I agree with this really- both points. Also I think "new users" is far too vague. Like Josh, I count him as a new user. 8 to 9 months- that's not a long time considering some people have been here for over 6. Personally anyone who has joined less than a year ago is a new user in this scenario. This means new users have posted or at least that's what is being implied and all in all: it's just reputation- it doesn't need changing imho.

In actual fact, I feel it is appropriate to use Josh as an example here.

He has only been here for 8-9 months - yet if his join date was not here he could have been here for 6 years (and in actual fact, I hadn't noticed his join date before hand). Giving new users more rep etc doesn't mean they will be any different or stay longer.

[GommeInc]

Newer users may respond, however the older users should have just as big a say, or maybe an even bigger say in this particular feedback thread imo.

Also, the fact hardly any new users HAVE responded to this date suggests it isn't making them too sad!
Because they obviously will not care. Users don't join a forum because of bonus features like a rep system - how they would even know there is one is beyond me, especially how it works and the criteria involved to rise through it. If new members leave, it's probably because of the mediocre and trivial points of discussion which apparently affect them, but obviously don't :P