Plan to bring UK clocks forward

[Slowpoke]

I really really like this idea:


Longer evenings could move a step closer with a government plan to move UK clocks forward an extra hour.

A "tourism strategy" will include a plan to move the clocks in line with most of Europe, bringing lighter evenings but darker mornings.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12517762

[wixard]

i don't know why but the thought of this really freaks me out
i do not like

[Hushy]

i hate dark mornings :(

[lawrawrrr]

Clock changes confuse me :(

All I know is that sometimes I get an extra hour asleep :D or lose an hour :(

[Slowpoke]

It would still get light at about 4.30am in the summer.

[Hushy]

does it mean that the uk would be in the same time zone as germany etc?

[dirrty]

i hate dark mornings as it makes me think that i'm getting up really really early and then i feel more tired for some reason:(

[Slowpoke]

Oh my god. Again, it won't mean "dark" mornings, it'll still be getting light at 4.30am in June/July with this.

[dirrty]

Oh my god. Again, it won't mean "dark" mornings, it'll still be getting light at 4.30am in June/July with this.
well SORRY for only reading the quote...

[dbgtz]

you cant just mess with time, surely?

[xxMATTGxx]

Why do they have to change everything? Can't we just keep the same time we have used for god knows how many years.

[Slowpoke]

They are looking for public approval for the change and so far, so good


well SORRY for only reading the quote...

It's fine chick no worries x

[Nemo]

dont think im bothered either way, tis only an hour

[Slowpoke]

I like the idea of it being lighter at night during the summer months. Sitting out at eleven on a hot summers night in a beer garden with it still being light would be awesome.

[matt$]

I like the idea of it being lighter at night during the summer months. Sitting out at eleven on a hot summers night in a beer garden with it still being light would be awesome.

This, it'll be so much nicer being able to stay out late and it still being bright.

[FlyingJesus]

That would mean that some winter mornings it wouldn't even get light until like 9 o'clock. Mornings are dark enough as it is in winter (nowhere in that article did it say it would only apply to summer months) and I don't know if you've forgotten what summer's like but it's light enough to be sat outside until at least 10 for a few months.

Also lol:

It would mean, for instance, that instead of the sun rising in Newcastle-upon-Tyne at 0714 and setting at 1723, as it does at this time of year, it would rise at 0814 and set at 1623.

Think they meant 1823 unless they're somehow destroying sunlight for 2 hours

[GommeInc]

Stupid idea. We don't need a time change. They should be solving problems, not making them up.

[Neversoft]

We'll be in the same timezone as France. Do not want. We're the standard time right here (GMT+0), if anything everyone else should change their time to match ours.

[Niall!]

you cant just mess with time, surely?

http://dailypop.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/david-tennant-in-doctor-who-pics-13478201.jpg

Edited by HotelUser (Forum Super Moderator): Please don't post pointlessly.

[lAbby,ox]

don't clocks move backwards and forwards anyway :S

& This just proves my philosophical theory of time existing (:

[Ajthedragon]

It means sun-dials won't work. And worst yet, I hate dark winter mornings. :(

[FlyingJesus]

& This just proves my philosophical theory of time existing (:

What, you didn't know before that the sun rises and sets at certain times rather than whenever it feels like it?

[lAbby,ox]

What, you didn't know before that the sun rises and sets at certain times rather than whenever it feels like it?

No what I mean is time is just a creation of man kind, it isn't exactly real, like people say time was here since the universe began but things like years, months, weeks, dates and clocks they only came around when man came around, so my philosophical theory is that time doesn't properly exist it's just a creation of man kind

[GommeInc]

No what I mean is time is just a creation of man kind, it isn't exactly real, like people say time was here since the universe began but things like years, months, weeks, dates and clocks they only came around when man came around, so my philosophical theory is that time doesn't properly exist it's just a creation of man kind
Interesting... Time did exist before man, man just made a way to record and calculate it. Before man did this, animals died, the sun rose and set, the seasons changed and so forth, these are all ways in which time were naturally recorded and changed - man just put names to it and made accurate calculations and records. Another deep philosophical stand point which contradicts your statement - if man created time, then when did man get created? If time did not exist, then the past did not exist.

[lAbby,ox]

Interesting... Time did exist before man, man just made a way to record and calculate it. Before man did this, animals died, the sun rose and set, the seasons changed and so forth, these are all ways in which time were naturally recorded and changed - man just put names to it and made accurate calculations and records. Another deep philosophical stand point which contradicts your statement - if man created time, then when did man get created? If time did not exist, then the past did not exist.

Touche - if that's how it's spelt :L

[FlyingJesus]

Time clearly moves lol man just created a means of measuring it. Otherwise it's like saying distance doesn't exist because humans invented the calculations of measurement

[Mr-Trainor]

you cant just mess with time, surely?
That's what I was thinking.

Stupid idea. We don't need a time change. They should be solving problems, not making them up.
Agreed.

I'm personally against this, I'd rather our time stayed as it is.

[-:Undertaker:-]

This is ridiculous, we are not near Berlin therefore we do not have the same time as them. You cannot change the times, it would be like California switching to the same time zone as Washington D.C. which is on the other side of the country - and we should be happy with our time zone, from what I know GMT is where time was rolled out across the world as the international standard (I may be wrong, time experts can correct me if so).

Call me sinister or even paranoid, but why this sudden desire to make us match the rest of Europe? I wonder.

[Catzsy]

Well BST was only introduced in 1972 and I think the UK survived before that:P I think it's a good idea just to put them forward and leave them there. Advantages apparently include, less carbon emissions, more tourism and less accidents as there would be lighter evenings all year around. I don't think it has anything to do with the EU.

[GommeInc]

Well BST was only introduced in 1972 and I think the UK survived before that:P I think it's a good idea just to put them forward and leave them there. Advantages apparently include, less carbon emissions, more tourism and less accidents as there would be lighter evenings all year around. I don't think it has anything to do with the EU.
I'd love to know how they came with those ideas :P Surely there would be more carbon emissions if it becomes easier to drive (thus the less accidents)? It can only be either/or, surely? :P

[Grig]

That will completely mess up timezones. The timezone lines, won't be lines anyway but swiggly things with governments changing it for the hell of it. Time is treated as a useless thing, might as well shift a few days back to make me feel younger (OK, maybe not so radical, but you get my point).

I personally would prefer longer evenings due to my routine, but it will cause a few problems. So mixed feelings on it.

[Jordy]

Well BST was only introduced in 1972 and I think the UK survived before that:P I think it's a good idea just to put them forward and leave them there. Advantages apparently include, less carbon emissions, more tourism and less accidents as there would be lighter evenings all year around. I don't think it has anything to do with the EU.Rare opportunity to whole heartedly agree with Catzsy! I completely agree, I don't think there's any historical significance in clocks. Greenwich observatory will forever be the "home of time" regardless of this and I think you'd struggle to say BST is part of our national heritage :P

Whatever strategy gives us the most daylight possible is best in my opinion, daylight is more valuable in the evening than the morning. People are just commuting etc in the morning, sport for instance can be played in the evening with better daylight hours. There's clearly economic advantages to this (Tourism mainly) and from a safety angle too, it's often been said that road safety accidents would be reduced as statistics prove more accidents happen after daylight. In this case the alternative really is better and just for the hassle of changing our clocks once every 6 months (very little at all).

[Technologic]

The world isn't going to end just because we move an hour, this isnt dr who

[FlyingJesus]

Whatever strategy gives us the most daylight possible is best in my opinion, daylight is more valuable in the evening than the morning.

It's bad for you to get up when it's dark appaz, affects mood and stress levels or something

[AgnesIO]

Why do they have to change everything? Can't we just keep the same time we have used for god knows how many years.

We only had that for the war though. We have no need for it now.

The dark evenings in the winter are ****. I would love to stop the useless time change thing

[-:Undertaker:-]

I don't see the argument about 'more daylight' - if you want more daylight then wake up earlier and so on? there's still the same amount of light regardless. Why don't the people who run this contry concentrate on more pressing issues rather than spend all this time (and most likely money) on a debate about time which in the end makes little difference, as you still have the same amount of light/dark as you did before.

[GommeInc]

I don't see the argument about 'more daylight' - if you want more daylight then wake up earlier and so on? there's still the same amount of light regardless. Why don't the people who run this contry concentrate on more pressing issues rather than spend all this time (and most likely money) on a debate about time which in the end makes little difference, as you still have the same amount of light/dark as you did before.
Not forgetting it's happened a few times, and is near enough immediately reverted because it doesn't change anything. Apparently the response to "school children will have to leave in the dark" in Scotland is "change the school hours to one hour later" which doesn't make much sense, but hey ho :P

[alexxxxx]

This is ridiculous, we are not near Berlin therefore we do not have the same time as them. You cannot change the times, it would be like California switching to the same time zone as Washington D.C. which is on the other side of the country - and we should be happy with our time zone, from what I know GMT is where time was rolled out across the world as the international standard (I may be wrong, time experts can correct me if so).

Call me sinister or even paranoid, but why this sudden desire to make us match the rest of Europe? I wonder.

Well your example isn't really correct. CA to Washington DC is 2.8k miles whilst London to Berlin is only 680 miles... so relatively it is much closer. and if you look on a map almost all of the UK falls above France and Spain, all GMT+1. Portugal however is GMT. Whether or not you call our 'time-zone' correct or not is personal preference, however there are economic benefits to being on the same time-zone as CET supposedly due to the cross-over of office opening times being near-perfect. Our Stock Market opens at 8am whilst the rest of Europe opens at 9am, we do this so they run the same. It would be interesting to see if it has any damaging problems with the east coast of the US.

I personally think that we should move to +1 as i prefer lighter evenings, there is nothing more depressing than coming home in the dark, but of course that is only my opinion.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well your example isn't really correct. CA to Washington DC is 2.8k miles whilst London to Berlin is only 680 miles... so relatively it is much closer. and if you look on a map almost all of the UK falls above France and Spain, all GMT+1. Portugal however is GMT. Whether or not you call our 'time-zone' correct or not is personal preference, however there are economic benefits to being on the same time-zone as CET supposedly due to the cross-over of office opening times being near-perfect. Our Stock Market opens at 8am whilst the rest of Europe opens at 9am, we do this so they run the same. It would be interesting to see if it has any damaging problems with the east coast of the US.

I personally think that we should move to +1 as i prefer lighter evenings, there is nothing more depressing than coming home in the dark, but of course that is only my opinion.

It is much closer yes, but Berlin is still a long long way away from London. Once you have these 'super time zones' then surely they could end up merging which is completely stupid as the Earth is a rounded shape, therefore the more layers of time you have the more measured and evened out it is - hence why we've managed with the present system for a long time without any reasons to change.

Why does London not have the same time as Berlin? because it is not near Berlin.

A good article if anybody is interested;

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2010/11/dont-let-them-force-you-to-live-your-life-on-berlin-time.html


Sooner than you think, we could all be living our lives on Berlin Time, an hour ahead of GMT in winter and two hours ahead of GMT in summer. Such time is fine for that great and historic city, you might say. But Berlin is 580 miles and 15 degrees of longitude east of Greenwich, which means that the sun rises and sets there an hour earlier than it does in England. The German capital, quite reasonably, does not fix its clocks to the time in Kiev or Minsk. Nor does it seem to suffer greatly by refusing to do so. So why should it be thought sensible for us to live as if we were far further east than we are?

And especially why should the people of the North of England and Scotland do so, when it will mean black darkness till around ten o’clock in the morning in the winter months?

According to Rebecca Harris, a chirpy, enthusiastic young Tory MP, this is a price worth paying for the many sparkling advantages of living our lives in step with Berliners. She believes that later, lighter afternoons in winter – and even later ones in summer – will make the roads safer, make old people less lonely, reduce crime, save energy and boost business. She has all kinds of studies that appear to prove this, and is supported by a mass of pressure groups that agree with her.

My own impression is that many of these claims are pretty much guesswork. Shifting the clocks about changes less than you might think. The amount of actual daylight remains the same. It is just available at different times of day. There was an experiment between 1968 and 1971, when we stayed on Summer Time all the year round – and lower road casualties for this period are often cited as an argument for the change. But the same years saw the introduction of roadside breath tests and the 70mph speed limit, so it is hard to claim that lighter evenings and darker mornings are solely responsible – or even to be sure that they are responsible at all.

[alexxxxx]

It is much closer yes, but Berlin is still a long long way away from London. Once you have these 'super time zones' then surely they could end up merging which is completely stupid as the Earth is a rounded shape, therefore the more layers of time you have the more measured and evened out it is - hence why we've managed with the present system for a long time without any reasons to change.

Why does London not have the same time as Berlin? because it is not near Berlin.

A good article if anybody is interested;

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2010/11/dont-let-them-force-you-to-live-your-life-on-berlin-time.html

To your first point, unlikely really isn't it? And even if it did, locally businesses and people would change their practices. In Scandinavia businesses and schools close earlier at different times of the year. I'm not sure how relevant that column is. The sun sets at different times in belfast to london - it doesn't mean it changes it at all.. Reykjavík isn't 'near london' but it is in the same time zone.

[-:Undertaker:-]

To your first point, unlikely really isn't it? And even if it did, locally businesses and people would change their practices. In Scandinavia businesses and schools close earlier at different times of the year. I'm not sure how relevant that column is. The sun sets at different times in belfast to london - it doesn't mean it changes it at all.. Reykjavík isn't 'near london' but it is in the same time zone.

It is in the same time zone as its deemed closer to that time zone, Berlin is not in our time zone because it is better suited in another one just as we are better suited in this time zone which we have been in for many years. We are not near Berlin, we are located around London therefore we have the time we have. As the article states, that is why Berlin does not have the time of Kiev.

I don't see how we can choose what time zone we occupy? yes we can change, but thats not logical hence why we are not on the same time zone as Mongolia for example because Mongolia is geographically further away just as Berlin is to London, and as Moscow is to Berlin.

We occupy a certain time zone on the map - and that should be the end of it.


I don't think it has anything to do with the EU.

Well many of us would like to think that, infact many of us would like that to be reality - but these people prefer and like to standardise everything (yes, everything right down to tractor seats), and a single time zone for Europe is something i'm sure they would be for/be pushing for.

They interfere with everything else, they might aswell interfere such a simple thing as time itself.

[benjamin]

personally i'm all for this change. i - as do a lot of other people - tend to do much more in the evenings/nights, it'd be nicer for it to be lighter for longer in the evenings.

also, i'd quite like a drive to work with the sun rising :)

[-:Undertaker:-]

This has been tried before apparently in Britain and it was a disaster and turned out unpopular and we reverted back, as did Portugal which it also proved unpopular in and they ended up reverting back to their normal time zone. Ontop of that, Scotland will have to suffer awkward timing of daylight/darkness. If you want more daylight then you can simply get up at an earlier time. There's the fact it will also mean kids out on the streets later on, an annoyance to many people.

But hey, do we learn from history? well some of us do, although certainly not our political class.

[Nemo]

This has been tried before apparently in Britain and it was a disaster and turned out unpopular and we reverted back, as did Portugal which it also proved unpopular in and they ended up reverting back to their normal time zone. Ontop of that, Scotland will have to suffer awkward timing of daylight/darkness. But hey, do we learn from history? well some of us do, although certainly not our political class.

Then there's the fact it will also mean kids out on the streets later on, an annoyance to many people.
When was this tested? Also who cares about scotland ;)

[Jordy]

Our current timezones are based on Scottish hill farmers, not exactly the backbone of our economy tbh.

[benjamin]

think i saw somewhere briefly, that it was tried back in the 60s? situations change, as well as peoples opinions. i don't honestly see why a trial run would hurt to be honest. the way i look at it, is that i see more pros than cons - especially for me, anyway.

[-:Undertaker:-]

When was this tested? Also who cares about scotland ;)

Under Edward Heath, not sure of the exact year.


Our current timezones are based on Scottish hill farmers, not exactly the backbone of our economy tbh.

Why annoy them/make life harder for them? I have never heard once somebody say 'gosh, I wish our clocks were put to Berlin time' - because I think most people realise we are not in Berlin/near Berlin, others are aware of the last failed attempt at changing our time and finally there is the fact that most people seem pretty happy with our timezone.


think i saw somewhere briefly, that it was tried back in the 60s? situations change, as well as peoples opinions. i don't honestly see why a trial run would hurt to be honest. the way i look at it, is that i see more pros than cons - especially for me, anyway.

Well because it proved to be not successful, hence why people turned against it. Now as far as i'm aware, in the last 40 years we haven't had a sudden change with the Sun which would mean that moving the times again would prove unsuccessful yet again - so why try something again which failed due to circumstances out of our control (the Sun, the tilt of the Earth) the last time we tried it?

[benjamin]

Under Edward Heath, not sure of the exact year.



Why annoy them/make life harder for them? I have never heard once somebody say 'gosh, I wish our clocks were put to Berlin time' - because I think most people realise we are not in Berlin/near Berlin, others are aware of the last failed attempt at changing our time and finally there is the fact that most people seem pretty happy with our timezone.



Well because it proved to be not successful, hence why people turned against it. Now as far as i'm aware, in the last 40 years we haven't had a sudden change with the Sun which would mean that moving the times again would prove unsuccessful yet again - so why try something again which failed due to circumstances out of our control (the Sun, the tilt of the Earth) the last time we tried it?

no, no sudden change with the sun - but as i said peoples opinions change. people might actually prefer this time around to do it differently. just because it didn't work once before, doesn't mean it never will work.

[-:Undertaker:-]

no, no sudden change with the sun - but as i said peoples opinions change. people might actually prefer this time around to do it differently. just because it didn't work once before, doesn't mean it never will work.

Well what could change in peoples opinions in regards to sunlight/darkness? it's not exactly a political issue or moral issue where peoples opinions can change over time and or with age. As I said before, Portugal tried twice and it didn't work out (one was in the 1990s) and we tried once in the 1970s and it didn't work out - especially for Scotland and up north which were plunged into awkward timing.

In the last post I said I haven't seen a big demand by people wanting to mess around with the times and put us on Berlin time, and that is true - has anyone for that matter ever heard somebody ask for us to be put on Berlin time? I very much doubt it.


They tried this experiment 40 years ago and it didnt work then and its not going to work now. Lighter evenings will lead to more anti-social behaviour, darker mornings will lead to children going to school in the dark, just as I did 40 years ago. The only people who want this change are those who start work late, if starting work at all, not those who start at 06.00 hours, because they will be going to bed in daylight. Ive heard the old Bring us in to line with Europe excuse....well are we going to be able to retire at 62 like some of our European counterparts? Are we going to have better pensions like some of our European counterparts? No, of course we are not. Listen....If it aint broke, dont fix it- Richo, Clacton, 20/2/2011 21:59

Amen to that - apparently Newfoundland in Canada also tried this a few years back, it didn't work.


Daylight Saving Time is observed throughout the province. In 1988 the provincial government experimented with double daylight saving time, moving clocks ahead two hours during daylight saving time instead of just one. This move proved unpopular in the fall when children started going to school in the dark.

[benjamin]

Well what could change in peoples opinions in regards to sunlight/darkness? it's not exactly a political issue or moral issue where peoples opinions can change over time and or with age. As I said before, Portugal tried twice and it didn't work out (one was in the 1990s) and we tried once in the 1970s and it didn't work out - especially for Scotland and up north which were plunged into awkward timing.

In the last post I said I haven't seen a big demand by people wanting to mess around with the times and put us on Berlin time, and that is true - has anyone for that matter ever heard somebody ask for us to be put on Berlin time? I very much doubt it.

well for one - we're not portugal. yeah it isn't such an issue, but there aren't exactly the same people around that were in the 70s. peoples ways of living change - peoples needs could potentially be different now to what they were - and having more sunlight in the evening may prove beneficial to a lot more people now than it did back in the 70s (or whenever it was given a trial).

maybe there hasn't been such demand for it because it doesn't cross peoples minds that it could change - until i saw this thread tonight i wouldn't have thought about changing our time zone, but now it has been bought to my attention, i would be all for the change. also, the tourism industry is (i assume, anyway) a lot different and possibly bigger to what it was in the 70s, and it's been pointed out it would benefit that industry in particular.

i usually go by "if it isn't broken, don't fix it", but in this circumstance i just feel that it'd be a good change.

[FlyingJesus]

I have never heard once somebody say 'gosh, I wish our clocks were put to Berlin time'

IF ONLY WE COULD MAKE IT SO IT WAS DARKER WHEN I WAKE UP.

Seriously if people want to come home and have light, get a night job

[-:Undertaker:-]

well for one - we're not portugal. yeah it isn't such an issue, but there aren't exactly the same people around that were in the 70s. peoples ways of living change - peoples needs could potentially be different now to what they were - and having more sunlight in the evening may prove beneficial to a lot more people now than it did back in the 70s (or whenever it was given a trial).

We are in line with portgal though, probably more so than any other country - almost directly under Portugal geographically. If the best example is needed, Portugal is that example as it is in the exact same position/boat as Britain is - infact we are worse because we have Scotland which is more up North.


maybe there hasn't been such demand for it because it doesn't cross peoples minds that it could change - until i saw this thread tonight i wouldn't have thought about changing our time zone, but now it has been bought to my attention, i would be all for the change. also, the tourism industry is (i assume, anyway) a lot different and possibly bigger to what it was in the 70s, and it's been pointed out it would benefit that industry in particular.

There is no evidence it would benefit the tourism industry what-so-ever really, and if you think about it it makes little sense at all that a one hour difference would make much of an impact on business - if business wants to open earlier than it can do so already I assume, if not then it is not the time which is at fault it is the restrictions placed on business by government which we should be looking at.

If anybody in government was seriously worried and concerned about business/tourism, they would not be allowing thousands of costly regulations a year come from Brussel and Whitehall to continue and then theres the issue of high tax rates which we have in this country which also hurt business. So this isn't about business and don't let them fool you into thinking it is by throwing out made-up figures which are mere guesswork.


i usually go by "if it isn't broken, don't fix it", but in this circumstance i just feel that it'd be a good change.

You would like it to be dark when you wake up?
You would like it to be sunlight at around 12 at midnight during the summer months?

This change will affect your body clock which, although it can be altered - it still ticks to day and night.

[Nuxty]

This is the most pathetic, outrageous idea I have heard from this sham of a government. I think it is terrible that they are even considering messing with time and make changes to it just so it can improve tourism. There are more major issues that need sorting out before they go messing with our clocks! :@

[benjamin]

We are in line with portgal though, probably more so than any other country - almost directly under Portugal geographically. If the best example is needed, Portugal is that example as it is in the exact same position/boat as Britain is - infact we are worse because we have Scotland which is more up North.



There is no evidence it would benefit the tourism industry what-so-ever really, and if you think about it it makes little sense at all that a one hour difference would make much of an impact on business - if business wants to open earlier than it can do so already I assume, if not then it is not the time which is at fault it is the restrictions placed on business by government which we should be looking at.

If anybody in government was seriously worried and concerned about business/tourism, they would not be allowing thousands of costly regulations a year come from Brussel and Whitehall to continue and then theres the issue of high tax rates which we have in this country which also hurt business. So this isn't about business and don't let them fool you into thinking it is by throwing out made-up figures which are mere guesswork.



You would like it to be dark when you wake up?
You would like it to be sunlight at around 12 at midnight during the summer months?

This change will affect your body clock which, although it can be altered - it still ticks to day and night.
- we may be in line with portugal, but still - we are not portugal. different people, different needs, different opinions.
- a business opening earlier will not have the same effect as staying open later, you can trust me on that one. people have more free time in the evenings, more people will have free time/be able to do more in the evenings than the mornings anyway.
- if i'm completely honest, i'm not overly fussed about the tourism industry as it doesn't directly effect me (in a way it does with my job, but nothing this time change would effecet), and i just saw it as a positive for others more than anything.
- and yes, i honestly would rather wake up when it's dark, and light until around midnight in the summer. it would suit me down to the ground.

[Jordy]

This is the most pathetic, outrageous idea I have heard from this sham of a government. I think it is terrible that they are even considering messing with time and make changes to it just so it can improve tourism. There are more major issues that need sorting out before they go messing with our clocks! :@Grow up, it's only changing the time on your watch. And clearly you've not listened to much of what the coalition has to say if this is the most "pathetic" and "outrageous idea" considering prisoners got the vote last week, that's just one small example.

[alexxxxx]

We are in line with portgal though, probably more so than any other country - almost directly under Portugal geographically. If the best example is needed, Portugal is that example as it is in the exact same position/boat as Britain is - infact we are worse because we have Scotland which is more up North.

http://www.eucen.eu/2000site/Links/EuropeTimeZonesMap.png

not really at all. unless you count N ireland as the majority of the UK... for some reason that map shows that iceland is not in the same timezone, it is but it doesnt put its clock forward..

[The Don]

I really dislike this idea. Trying to make all of europe the same, I really dislike how we are getting this involved with it and closer to becoming part of a supernation.

[-:Undertaker:-]

- we may be in line with portugal, but still - we are not portugal. different people, different needs, different opinions.
- a business opening earlier will not have the same effect as staying open later, you can trust me on that one. people have more free time in the evenings, more people will have free time/be able to do more in the evenings than the mornings anyway.
- if i'm completely honest, i'm not overly fussed about the tourism industry as it doesn't directly effect me (in a way it does with my job, but nothing this time change would effecet), and i just saw it as a positive for others more than anything.
- and yes, i honestly would rather wake up when it's dark, and light until around midnight in the summer. it would suit me down to the ground.

Indeed, and i've argued against all those points that the coalition government has put out as has Peter Hitchens in the article I linked earlier on - time afterall is geographical and not down to opinon. But I guess we'll agree to disagree - it looks many of us will be buying blackout curtains very shortly.


Grow up, it's only changing the time on your watch. And clearly you've not listened to much of what the coalition has to say if this is the most "pathetic" and "outrageous idea" considering prisoners got the vote last week, that's just one small example.

I knocked back the coalitions arguments as has Peter Hitchens, this has nothing to do with business - another whitewash by this government.


not really at all. unless you count N ireland as the majority of the UK... for some reason that map shows that iceland is not in the same timezone, it is but it doesnt put its clock forward..

The Earth is curve though remember, when flat on a map such as the one you linked it appears as though the British Isles is out of line in the time we use - it is not, think back to geography when you have to cut out the lines for making a paperball Earth. The time zone we are in at the moment (along with Portugal) matches rather well.

[Jordy]

I knocked back the coalitions arguments as has Peter Hitchens, this has nothing to do with business - another whitewash by this government.What is this to do with then?

And FYI I quoted someone else, not you or Peter Hitchens.

[alexxxxx]

What is this to do with then?

And FYI I quoted someone else, not you or Peter Hitchens.
EU conspiracy. as is everything.

[-:Undertaker:-]

What is this to do with then?

I have no idea, I can't rationally explain most of the ludicrous things they do let alone why they want to try a tested & failed time change (again).

The only logical explanation is to put us more in line with Europe for political purposes.


EU conspiracy. as is everything.

Yeah, a bit like with the Common market 'only a trading agreement' - now look where we are. Besides alex, you could do with a re-read of all them quotes/extracts I gave you a while ago exposing the real aim for the EU which you long denied was happening. But thats another issue. Wherever these ideas are coming from, be it the EU or this government they simply do not stack up or make sense hence why i've been arguing against them using past examples and logic in this thread.

[alexxxxx]

http://www.europeword.com/images/wallpapers/europe-map-satellite_jpg.jpg

here's you sat image proving that all of the UK is above portugal.. oh wait, that's ireland.

[Jordy]

EU conspiracy. as is everything.Sometimes I think "Current Affairs" forum should be merged with the "Jokes" forum, this is one of them.


I have no idea, I can't rationally explain most of the ludicrous things they do let alone why they want to try a tested & failed time change (again).

The only logical explanation is to put us more in line with Europe for political purposes.The economic and safety argument is entirely logical. I have yet to see a shred of evidence linking this to the EU. This is just ridiculously over the top paranoia with little or no basis, now that my friend is definitely a conspiracy.

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.europeword.com/images/wallpapers/europe-map-satellite_jpg.jpg

here's you sat image proving that all of the UK is above portugal.. oh wait, that's ireland.

We are not exact over Portugal no, but we fit in pretty much over Portugal - otherwise we'd all have nations lines in order of time zone with all exact locations ontop of one another, we are suited better to the current time zone as I said before because we (like Portugal) have found with past experiments that we do not fit into the Berlin time model. That thing called history that we're supposed to learn from shows us that.


Sometimes I think "Current Affairs" forum should be merged with the "Jokes" forum, this is one of them.

The economic and safety argument is entirely logical. I have yet to see a shred of evidence linking this to the EU. This is just ridiculously over the top paranoia with little or no basis, now that my friend is definitely a conspiracy.

I have been over them, kindly read back and respond to the past points I made concerning the business arguments and the failed examples of time zone changes; Portugal (twice), Britain (once) and Newfoundland.

[Jordy]

We are not exact over Portugal no, but we fit in pretty much over Portugal - otherwise we'd all have nations lines in order of time zone with all exact locations ontop of one another, we are suited better to the current time zone as I said before because we (like Portugal) have found with past experiments that we do not fit into the Berlin time model. That thing called history that we're supposed to learn from shows us that.



I have been over them, kindly read back and respond to the past points I made concerning the business arguments and the failed examples of time zone changes; Portgal (twice), Britain (once) and Newfoundland.Nicely avoiding my point there ;) You have yet to prove any link to David Cameron supporting the Private Members Bill and the European Union. It's an unfounded conspiracy, nothing more.

The experiments in the past did prove for instance that road safety accidents did go down (And if the data is skewed then that makes the experiment invalid), they also did not involve GMT+2 during the summer, simply GMT+1 during the winter. Academics have also shown using statistics that the FTSE 100 rises when clocks go forward and goes down when they go back, proving more economic advantage as well as the tourism affect. It's a much better utilisation of daylight to have it during the evening than the winter.

And just to settle the geographical point finally. We are aligned over France and Spain, the argument that we are aligned over Portugal simply doesn't add up as proven here. I drew these lines from the most Easterly points. Therefore if we've got to "follow the maps" as you're banging on about, it makes sense to have the same timezone as France and Spain.
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4769/timezonemap.png

[-:Undertaker:-]

Nicely avoiding my point there ;) You have yet to prove any link to David Cameron supporting the Private Members Bill and the European Union. It's an unfounded conspiracy, nothing more.

I never said it was a fact, just that there's no other rational explanation for it other than politics on the continent. So no, I haven't avoided any points at all - rather you started by avoiding points by trying to dismiss me (along with alexxxx) by making out that I was some sort of nut until I asked you to address my previous points which I made in a debate with benji.

So don't accuse me of avoiding points, thanks.


The experiments in the past did prove for instance that road safety accidents did go down (And if the data is skewed then that makes the experiment invalid), they also did not involve GMT+2 during the summer, simply GMT+1 during the winter. Academics have also shown using statistics that the FTSE 100 rises when clocks go forward and goes down when they go back, proving more economic advantage as well as the tourism affect. It's a much better utilisation of daylight to have it during the evening than the winter.The FTSE 100 rises (as do all markets) over a range of things, it is meaningless - again I say with the business argument, business can easily open earlier and if not then it is those restrictions the coalition should be tearing down rather than tampering with the time. For example, mornings will be dark which means less shopping for commuters as they may be less inclined (due to the darkness) to pick up some early morning shopping/snacks.

So I fail to see the 'economic advantage' when in reality there are still the same amount of hours, and people still need to get to sleep at the same times for work so whether or not it is light in the summer at night time does not matter as people will have to go to sleep anyway (which will be a struggle with the sun out late at night) in order to get up for next days work. Infact, it could hamper productivity as people are more likely to be tired especially when they are tempted to stay up longer in the summer time due to prolonged hours of sunlight.

Lastly, this isn't about economics/business because this government does not give a damn about business or economics. If it was so concerned about business/economics and tourism, it would cut down on regulations and taxation - something which it is not doing nor shows any signs of doing. It is nothing but a poor excuse in order to get pro-business Tories behind the idea.


And just to settle the geographical point finally. We are aligned over France and Spain, the argument that we are aligned over Portugal simply doesn't add up as proven here. I drew these lines from the most Easterly points. Therefore if we've got to "follow the maps" as you're banging on about, it makes sense to have the same timezone as France and Spain.That map only proves to me that GMT and London times are the better times, as we are closer to them. The time we are on now also is much better for Scotland which would be plunged into awkward timing if we were to make a (pointless) change to Berlin time.

If this were the case, why does Berlin not switch to the same time as Kiev? its about the same distance as London is to Berlin as Berlin is to Kiev. This has been tried twice by Portugal, once by ourselves and also by Newfoundland and it failed. Why not admit failure, and put this ridiculous petty change to bed?

[Jordy]

I never said it was a fact, just that there's no other rational explanation for it other than politics on the continent. So no, I haven't avoided any points at all - rather you started by avoiding points by trying to dismiss me (along with alexxxx) by making out that I was some sort of nut until I asked you to address my previous points which I made in a debate with benji.

So don't accuse me of avoiding points, thanks.

The FTSE 100 rises (as do all markets) over a range of things, it is meaningles - again I say with the business argument, business can easily open earlier and if not then it is those restrictions the coalition should be tearing down rather than tampering with the time. For example, mornings will be dark which means less shopping for commuters as they may be less inclined (due to the darkness) to pick up some early morning shopping/snacks.

So I fail to see the 'economic advantage' when in reality there are still the same amount of hours, and people still need to get to sleep at the same times for work so whether or not it is light in the summer at night time does not matter as people will have to go to sleep anyway (which will be a struggle with the sun out late at night) in order to get up for next days work. Infact, it could hamper productivity as people are more likely to be tired especially when they are tempted to stay up longer in the summer time due to prolonged hours of sunlight.

Lastly, this isn't about economics/business because this government does not give a damn about business or economics. If it was so concerned about business/economics and tourism, it would cut down on regulations and taxation - something which it is not doing nor shows any signs of doing. It is nothing but a poor excuse in order to get pro-business Tories behind the idea.



That map only proves to me that GMT and London times are the better times, as we are closer to them.

If this were the case, why does Berlin not switch to the same time as Kiev? its about the same distance as London is to Berlin as Berlin is to Kiev. This has been tried twice by Portugal, once by ourselves and also by Newfoundland and it failed. Why not admit failure, and put this ridiculous petty change to bed?Would you finally agree that we are aligned over France & Spain and not Portugal? Your accusation that the map doesn't work as the World isn't flat was quickly edited I see, which saves me having to install Google Earth to prove that we are not over Portugal. Geographical points aside, it doesn't matter what Germany, France etc are using as their timezones anyway, that is not the point so I don't see why Berlin is constantly being brought up.

What matters is the economic, safety and leisure advantages in the UK, not some far-fetched conspiracy involving the EU or that we are allegedly aligned over Portugal (We are not) or that we are quite some distance from Berlin. I'm also afraid to say that you are some sort of paranoid nut until you prove the EUs involvement with this other than how you think there's no other way to explain it, which is in no way proving it! As someone who I believe is a great fan of our justice system's Common Law. You have to prove something for them to be guilty. You have to prove the EU's involvement in this issue for it to evidence or a rational explanation, the absence of other explanations doesn't mean it's the EU. Hence why it is a conspiracy like it or not.

Your point about people not being able to go to sleep at night is also not true. June 21st is the longest day of the year, the Sun rises at 4:43 and goes down at 21:21. If we add on an hour to this, the latest the Sun will ever go down in London in GMT+2 is 22:21, which really isn't that late for working adults. I don't think the economy will be suffering from tired workers :L

[-:Undertaker:-]

Would you finally agree that we are aligned over France & Spain and not Portugal? Your accusation that the map doesn't work as the World isn't flat was quickly edited I see, which saves me having to install Google Earth to prove that we are not over Portugal. Geographical points aside, it doesn't matter what Germany, France etc are using as their timezones anyway, that is not the point so I don't see why Berlin is constantly being brought up.

You are not taking into account the tilt/curve of the Earth, which is the reason why we are closer to Portugal based in time and hence why both ourselves and Portugal are not suited to Berlin time having turned it down three times both combined. We are not perfectly over Portugal no, I never said that but we are more or less aligned with portugal in terms of the Sun rising (remember also, we are the United Kingdom and not just Southern England alone which, again, proves the point concerning Scotland being up north of why this is a bad idea).

I understand the sun rises like this (correct me if wrong) when taking into account the tilt.

http://startswithabang.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/earth_from_space.jpg


What matters is the economic, safety and leisure advantages in the UK, not some far-fetched conspiracy involving the EU or that we are allegedly aligned over Portugal (We are not) or that we are quite some distance from Berlin. I'm also afraid to say that you are some sort of paranoid nut until you prove the EUs involvement with this other than how you think there's no other way to explain it, which is in no way proving it! As someone who I believe is a great fan of our justice system's Common Law. You have to prove something for them to be guilty. You have to prove the EU's involvement in this issue for it to evidence or a rational explanation, the absence of other explanations doesn't mean it's the EU. Hence why it is a conspiracy like it or not.

I'm not a judge, I don't have any evidence that the EU is involved other than suspicions and I haven't claimed otherwise. Now you've just dismissed my points about business to go on some side issue of EU involvement which I said I suspect is the only reason our politicians are tempted to make this ridiculous change which has been tried and failed before;- so reply to the business point please which you've bypassed.

That of course is part of my argument, its not really about business because they dont care about business - so why are they saying it is?


Your point about people not being able to go to sleep at night is also not true. June 21st is the longest day of the year, the Sun rises at 4:43 and goes down at 21:21. If we add on an hour to this, the latest the Sun will ever go down in London in GMT+2 is 22:21, which really isn't that late for working adults. I don't think the economy will be suffering from tired workers :L

Why do you think it failed last time? these arguments are not stacking up, and I remember on summer days it being quite light at near 11 o'clock maximum - forwarded this is bad news for people trying to get to sleep on work days, especially weak sleepers who will be tempted to stay up longer.

Lets see, Portugal and Britain have tried three time and each time it failed? has the Earth suddenly changed rotation/tilt or has something changed drastically with the sun which would suggest that another attempt at changing the time zone would be a good idea now?

Failed three times, why try again when the circumstances have not changed?

EDIT; yes we are more or less above Portugal with the axis tilt of the Earth, look at a globe and keep your finger on a straight line down (from pole to pole) and you'll see we keep in fitting with Portugal roughly (its confusing, look on a globe).

[Jordy]

EDIT; yes we are above Portugal with the axis tilt of the Earth, look at a globe and keep your finger on a straight line down and you'll see we keep in fitting with Portugal (its confusing, look on a globe).
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2936/timezonemap2.png
Can we finally put that one to bed now I've proved I'm right?

It also did not fail in the UK last time, there was no outcome either way with the Pros & Cons and it was ended there with no conclusion. As for Portugal, it doesn't matter what they find. The country isn't aligned under us, nor is the country anywhere near as tall as the UK in length so it does not face the same issues as us, we are much further north. The daylight is simply not beneficial in the morning, in the evening it can be utilised so much better by playing sport perhaps and people/tourists can stay out longer for instance, therefore boosting the economy. And there was also the stock market argument you dismissed.

[Rixion]

it's a bad idea, they're basically tampering with time zones if they do this, it's fine as it is we've been living like as it is forever..

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2936/timezonemap2.png
Can we finally put that one to bed now I've proved I'm right?

And GMT is right inbetween, what would be the sense in jumping to the right (Berlin) when we are closer (and yes the UK is directly above) Portugal. If anybody should be changing it should be Spain. When you look at maps such as the one below which shows Central European Time (Berlin Time) it looks as though the UK is out of step and should also belong to CET;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Time_zones_of_Europe.svg/340px-Time_zones_of_Europe.svg.png

In reality (as the map you posted shows) the United Kingdom is above Portugal. (and yes, done the string along with the built-in ruler on globe)

http://www.iaza.com/work/110221C/iaza14727292824600.bmp

Both within same lines when you look at globe split based on curves.


It also did not fail in the UK last time, there was no outcome either way with the Pros & Cons and it was ended there with no conclusion. As for Portugal, it doesn't matter what they find. The country isn't aligned under us, nor is the country anywhere near as tall as the UK in length so it does not face the same issues as us, we are much further north.

It did fail because we reverted back, otherwise we wouldn't have reverted back. There are many comments you can find from people who remember that time who did not like it, with very dark mornings and very bright evenings well into the night - hence why we changed back. It is especially a nightmare for Scotland being up north which you yourself mention in how tall the United Kingdom is.


The daylight is simply not beneficial in the morning, in the evening it can be utilised so much better by playing sport perhaps and people/tourists can stay out longer for instance, therefore boosting the economy. And there was also the stock market argument you dismissed.

The stock market does not represent the real market, the stock market I assume jumped when Tony Blair was elected just as it was when David Cameron was elected despite the fact it only means more regulation and more taxation. The stock market just reflects good mood, so good mood that we are entering summer. It is not representative of the real market.

And I say again, this has nothing to do with the economy (along with the negatives which I posted earlier of lighter evenings and darker mornings because business in the morning for example will be losing more, meaning no difference in the status quo) - so from a government which hasn't helped business in the slightest and only made things worse for them, you expect me to believe this will boost the economy?

[Jordy]

And GMT is right inbetween, what would be the sense in jumping to the right (Berlin) when we are closer (and yes the UK is directly above) Portugal. If anybody should be changing it should be Spain. When you look at maps such as the one below which shows Central European Time (Berlin Time) it looks as though the UK is out of step and should also belong to CET;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Time_zones_of_Europe.svg/340px-Time_zones_of_Europe.svg.png

In reality (as the map you posted shows) the United Kingdom is above Portugal. (and yes, done the string along with the built-in ruler on globe)



It did fail because we reverted back, otherwise we wouldn't have reverted back. There are many comments you can find from people who remember that time who did not like it, with very dark mornings and very bright evenings well into the night - hence why we changed back. It is especially a nightmare for Scotland being up north which you yourself mention in how tall the United Kingdom is.



The stock market does not represent the real market, the stock market I assume jumped when Tony Blair was elected just as it was when David Cameron was elected despite the fact it only means more regulation and more taxation. The stock market just reflects good mood, so good mood that we are entering summer. It is not representative of the real market.

And I say again, this has nothing to do with the economy (along with the negatives which I posted earlier of lighter evenings and darker mornings because business in the morning for example will be losing more, meaning no difference in the status quo) - so from a government which hasn't helped business in the slightest and only made things worse for them, you expect me to believe this will boost the economy?I have continued to prove to the forum how we are not over Portugal but infact France and Spain. You don't have any legs to stand on, it is not up for debate as my maps show it. I would say prove me wrong but you simply cant :p

It did not revert back because it failed, it reverted back because it was an experiment with no conclusion either way. Other countries simply do not matter on the issue, there's no need to bang on about Berlin, merely what's best for the UK.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I have continued to prove to the forum how we are not over Portugal but infact France and Spain. You don't have any legs to stand on, it is not up for debate as my maps show it. I would say prove me wrong but you simply cant :p

No hang on, when you say 'we' are above France/Spain - I suspect now you are only including the mainland of England. I am talking about the United Kingdom, and Northern Ireland fits above Portugal (just). If anything, it is Spain which should match the times of Portugal and the United Kingdom not the other way around. But they do not - because they are fine with their given time, just as Portugal and the United Kingdom are fine with their times.


It did not revert back because it failed, it reverted back because it was an experiment with no conclusion either way. Other countries simply do not matter on the issue, there's no need to bang on about Berlin, merely what's best for the UK.

So again, nothing has changed in circumstances so why would changing the times make any difference now than it did when Portugal changed in the 1960s(?), we changed in the 1970s and they changed again in the 1990s - why would it work now but not back then?

This is not best for the UK as past trials have proven and as we know what will happen with Scotland which will be plunged into darkness, furthermore London is not in or near Berlin just as Berlin is not near Kiev or Moscow. We have WET because we are in the west of Europe, Berlin has CET because it is in the centre of Europe and Kiev has EET because it is to the east. Now unless these countries suddenly swap places geographically, where is the logic in changing times? (which has already been attempted before and failed).

[Moh]

The times are fine as they are. Everything to do with time in the UK revolves around GMT/BST. Not just every day life, but also armed defense etc..

Then you have technology that would have to recognise the timezone, such as using GPS etc..

So changing it, just so we can be the same as the EU would only cause problems, not resolve them - not that we even have any problems with the time?

[X...]

The times are fine as they are. Everything to do with time in the UK revolves around GMT/BST. Not just every day life, but also armed defense etc..

Then you have technology that would have to recognise the timezone, such as using GPS etc..

So changing it, just so we can be the same as the EU would only cause problems, not resolve them - not that we even have any problems with the time?

Changing timezones really would not have that much of an effect, the first point in your post is invalid. If this was the case then the entire world would end twice a year. People change their clocks and go to bed, they wake up the next day and continue their life to the same schedule as before. Exactly the same would happen if the UK was brought into line with CET, the actual switch would probably happen at 2 in the morning like with the BST/UTC (Its not actually called GMT).

As for the second part your post, again the world does not end when the clocks go backwards/forwards so most things would not be effected by this (Although software might have to be updated, like Windows was a few years back due to the US government changing the dates DST came into effect, although it would be less of an issue as things could just be set to CET as it is an already existing timezone). And as you mention GPS specifically, it would not be effected at all. GPS does not care about timezones (for position anyway), it just requires an accurate time source.




As for the distance thing brought up by someone else previously in this thread, 600 or so miles is not very wide for a timezone. China is a single timezone for example (it's timezone is actually the widest spanning timezone).
You have to remember that we are only 30 miles from the edge of the CET timezone, it really would not make much of a difference to anyone.


I honestly think that some people dislike this idea purely because its a change. I really doubt most people would notice it, it would be no different to putting clocks forward/backwards. You would change every clock and go to bed and wake up at what ever time you had planned to (So if you had woken up at 6 UTC on the day before the change you would wake up at 6 CET the next day) and go about your day. After a few days no one would notice.
A one hour time difference really is not that much of a difference and takes no time at all to adjust to.

[Arron]

I remember hearing something on the news about this and they mentioned that they're doing it to reduce crime? I can't provide a source or a link.

[Conservative,]

Hate dark mornings - if we were in line with Europe then in winter we'd have really late sunrises (eg; about 8/9am) which means I'd be going to school in the dark and I don't like that idea.

[Slowpoke]

I'd much rather it be dark until 8am than it going dark at 3pm which it does in mid-winter.

[craig1709]

Surely that's going to be confusing, moving us ahead of GMT.

GMT - Greenwich Mean Time, and Greenwich is in England, so we're not going the timezone that's based around an area in our country

[GommeInc]

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2936/timezonemap2.png
Can we finally put that one to bed now I've proved I'm right?
Not being fussy, but that is grossly out of proportion. Your lines are straight, not curved which they should be and the angle that has been taken looks as though it was photographed through a fish eye/convexed lens :/ Think of it like this, when one half of the planet is in complete darkness and the other isn't, you will never get a perfect straight line. Undertaker's image is more realistic. Take a look at the moon at night, it's the same principle :) It's all interesting to note that your picture suggests the sun comes from above or below the earth, never the sides :P

EDIT: Here are a few examples:

http://www.gearthblog.com/images/nightday.jpg
^ According to your diagram, the US should have a perfect line going down the middle, when in actual fact it's at an angle (the earth afterall doesn't "stand" on the south pole, with the north pole at the top, it's actually at a slight angle and the sun catches it at a slight angle, thus the space photographs).

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap030324.html
^ This is the link Undertaker got his photograph from, interesting it is Copyrighted to NASA, so I assume it's accurate :P

[Jordy]

Not being fussy, but that is grossly out of proportion. Your lines are straight, not curved which they should be and the angle that has been taken looks as though it was photographed through a fish eye/convexed lens :/ Think of it like this, when one half of the planet is in complete darkness and the other isn't, you will never get a perfect straight line. Undertaker's image is more realistic. Take a look at the moon at night, it's the same principle :) It's all interesting to note that your picture suggests the sun comes from above or below the earth, never the sides :P

EDIT: Here are a few examples:

http://www.gearthblog.com/images/nightday.jpg
^ According to your diagram, the US should have a perfect line going down the middle, when in actual fact it's at an angle (the earth afterall doesn't "stand" on the south pole, with the north pole at the top, it's actually at a slight angle and the sun catches it at a slight angle, thus the space photographs).

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap030324.html
^ This is the link Undertaker got his photograph from, interesting it is Copyrighted to NASA, so I assume it's accurate :PUse a globe, get a straight piece of string from pole to pole, one going through the most Easterly point of England and another through the most Easterly point of Portugal and you'll see once and for all, the UK is over France and Spain. Only a small part of Northern Ireland is over Portugal.

Completely ridiculous argument.

[GommeInc]

Use a globe, get a straight piece of string from pole to pole, one going through the most Easterly point of England and another through the most Easterly point of Portugal and you'll see once and for all, the UK is over France and Spain. Only a small part of Northern Ireland is over Portugal.

Completely ridiculous argument.
And where is the sun in your experiment? The main point of this debate is sunlight and time. It may be over Spain and France, but when the sun is setting you will notice that the sun doesn't form a perfect line split between the earth, it's angled slightly. It's an interesting light experience which you can be taught in schools, assuming you understand the Earth's axis :P

EDIT: This image is an idea of the earth axis and sunlight. I think I had one in my science lab at school:

http://www.dorlingkindersley-uk.co.uk/static/clipart/uk/dk/sci_earth/image_sci_earth002.jpg

[Jordy]

And where is the sun in your experiment? The main point of this debate is sunlight and time. It may be over Spain and France, but when the sun is setting you will notice that the sun doesn't form a perfect line split between the earth, it's angled slightly. It's an interesting light experience which you can be taught in schools, assuming you understand the Earth's axis :PThe picture Undertaker has found just furthers the point that we are more closely aligned to Spain and France, both geographically and when the sun rises.

[GommeInc]

The picture Undertaker has found just furthers the point that we are more closely aligned to Spain and France, both geographically and when the sun rises.
Not entirely. The interesting thing is, if you follow the curve, we're more aligned with Western Spain than the majority of France. It's neither Portugal nor France, it's Western Spain we fall under :P It is a petty argument, and does suggests that the Government needs to do more research.

[Catzsy]

I'd love to know how they came with those ideas :P Surely there would be more carbon emissions if it becomes easier to drive (thus the less accidents)? It can only be either/or, surely? :P

Well this Rospa report seems to sum it up pretty well.
http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/general/british-summertime-benefits.aspx



I don't see the argument about 'more daylight' - if you want more daylight then wake up earlier and so on? there's still the same amount of light regardless. Why don't the people who run this contry concentrate on more pressing issues rather than spend all this time (and most likely money) on a debate about time which in the end makes little difference, as you still have the same amount of light/dark as you did before.

This is a rather rediculous argument to maintain the status quo and I don't think it's a huge priority with those who run the country either. I hate the way my bodyclock has to adjust twice a year and I am sure that most of the population do as well. You may also see the benefits as mentioned above. Dan, much as you hate the EU you cannot pin this one on them. :P

[GommeInc]

Well this Rospa report seems to sum it up pretty well.
http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/general/british-summertime-benefits.aspx
The environmental bit confuses me, as I always thought more leisure time meant more people will be heading "out and about", which usually involves cars and other environmentally unfriendly forms of transportation and use. They could try the experiment, but I'm spectical it will make a difference. It'll also be one of those times when something like GMT will never mean the same thing again, but that doesn't mean too much.

[Catzsy]

The environmental bit confuses me, as I always thought more leisure time meant more people will be heading "out and about", which usually involves cars and other environmentally unfriendly forms of transportation and use. They could try the experiment, but I'm spectical it will make a difference. It'll also be one of those times when something like GMT will never mean the same thing again, but that doesn't mean too much.

We are only on GMT 6 months of the year anyway. When the clocks forward in March we will be on BST. If I have this right if we stay on GMT the whole year around then it will be lighter at night which is what the proposal is.

[Zuth]

you cant just mess with time, surely?

That's what I was thinking, it doesnt sound right.

[benjamin]

Indeed, and i've argued against all those points that the coalition government has put out as has Peter Hitchens in the article I linked earlier on - time afterall is geographical and not down to opinon. But I guess we'll agree to disagree - it looks many of us will be buying blackout curtains very shortly.

you've assumed pretty quickly that it's going to happen! in all fairness, even though i'm all for it - i don't see it happening.

[Moh]

Surely that's going to be confusing, moving us ahead of GMT.

GMT - Greenwich Mean Time, and Greenwich is in England, so we're not going the timezone that's based around an area in our country

GMT was also the first timezone, hence why all the other timezones are based around it. Such as GMT+1, GMT+5 etc.. and used to be the universal time (although UTC is pretty much the same as GMT?).

So like you said, GMT is based around this country.

[kuzkasate]

i love how this has turned into a debate lol.

anyway, i found some info on bbc news about how it would affect you or the place you live in:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51354000/gif/_51354741_double_summer_time.gif

A proposal to move the nation's clocks forward by one hour to so-called "double summertime" will be published this week. So what difference would it make to sunrise and sunset in towns and cities across the UK?

Prime Minister David Cameron has said any plans to give the UK brighter and longer evenings will only become a reality if it's clear that the country is behind it.

But support for the move, which would make mornings darker, may depend upon where people are.

If you live in London, then sunset would be at 2222 on 21 June, which is the longest day of the year. But in the winter solstice, on 21 December, it would not be fully light until sunrise at 0904.

It would be a very different experience if you lived in Thurso in the Scottish Highlands, where under "double summertime", the sun would not set until 2327 in mid-summer but it would not rise until 1003 in mid-winter, a long time after children had started school lessons.

So how would it affect you? Seven cities are mapped above, and below, there are 10 more cities around the UK with the new sunrise and sunset times on the longest and shortest days of the year.



http://i53.tinypic.com/991g0o.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12523164

[qaxzsw]

I'm all for this change! fingers crossed it happens :)

[Slowpoke]

Word of the proposal is spreading very quickly, seen it mentioned a lot on Facebook today and everyone was talking about this at work. Opinion seems extremely divided, however. I'm all for it personally.

[Jordy]

i love how this has turned into a debate lol.

anyway, i found some info on bbc news about how it would affect you or the place you live in:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51354000/gif/_51354741_double_summer_time.gif

A proposal to move the nation's clocks forward by one hour to so-called "double summertime" will be published this week. So what difference would it make to sunrise and sunset in towns and cities across the UK?

Prime Minister David Cameron has said any plans to give the UK brighter and longer evenings will only become a reality if it's clear that the country is behind it.

But support for the move, which would make mornings darker, may depend upon where people are.

If you live in London, then sunset would be at 2222 on 21 June, which is the longest day of the year. But in the winter solstice, on 21 December, it would not be fully light until sunrise at 0904.

It would be a very different experience if you lived in Thurso in the Scottish Highlands, where under "double summertime", the sun would not set until 2327 in mid-summer but it would not rise until 1003 in mid-winter, a long time after children had started school lessons.

So how would it affect you? Seven cities are mapped above, and below, there are 10 more cities around the UK with the new sunrise and sunset times on the longest and shortest days of the year.Very informative thank-you. To conclude in the very North of Scotland, it seems that the new timezones would indeed be impractical (Although the current ones are rather impractical too). However let's not forget the population of Highlands is 220,000
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/ScotlandHighlands.png
Map showing the Highlands

This is 0.4% of the population of the UK, I don't think the timezone should be dictated by these. And no offence to anyone living in the highlands but you're not exactly the economic backbone either. They could simply change the times they got into school if they were worried about being hit by cars, such as going in an hour later.

[Neversoft]

Urgh, sunrise before 6am. If they go ahead with this I am going to have to sleep under the floorboards.

[Jordy]

Urgh, sunrise before 6am. If they go ahead with this I am going to have to sleep under the floorboards.Well the sun will rise 1 hour later than it currently does. So it already rises before 5am ;)

[Neversoft]

Well the sun will rise 1 hour later than it currently does. So it already rises before 5am ;)

Oh yeah... that's why I hate summer mornings so much. I guess under the floorboards it is. :(

[Chippiewill]

Good luck in the winter when everyone will have darkness until 9AM because that's what would happen.

[alexxxxx]

Good luck in the winter when everyone will have darkness until 9AM because that's what would happen.

but stays lighter later which is a more productive part of the day.

[Moh]

but stays lighter later which is a more productive part of the day.
Not when the darkness in the morning makes you feel crap :P

[Suspective]

I support these plans and I think it would be much more practical and really align us with the rest of Europe.

[Chippiewill]

but stays lighter later which is a more productive part of the day.

I'm not going to have fun waiting to get stabbed whilst walking to school in pitch black.

[alexxxxx]

I'm not going to have fun waiting to get stabbed whilst walking to school in pitch black.

at least you wont get stabbed on the way home then

[himynameistom]

I'd love this! I get up for work at 4am so the mornings wouldn't affect me then I'd get an extra hour of light in the evening, bring it ;)

[Janet Snakehole]

Clock changes confuse me already. I really hope this doesn't happen!

[-:Undertaker:-]

Not entirely. The interesting thing is, if you follow the curve, we're more aligned with Western Spain than the majority of France. It's neither Portugal nor France, it's Western Spain we fall under :P It is a petty argument, and does suggests that the Government needs to do more research.

Posters in this thread seem to be purposely ignoring the curve aspect (which is exactly why sunrise comes in a curved shape, rather than a line) - shown by the dismissal of that picture of sunrise from NASA that I posted. Are we the only two people on this forum with a pair of working *aligned* eyes or what? :P

http://startswithabang.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/earth_from_space.jpg

As we can all see (am I right?) from this map, the curve of the sunlight first hits the UK just as its passing through sunrise, Berlin on the other hand (which is the time we are wanting to move to for some bizzare reason despite not being in line with Berlin at all) is still in darkness as is central Europe hence why they are on CET rather than WET like the United Kingdom and Portugal.


Well this Rospa report seems to sum it up pretty well.
http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/general/british-summertime-benefits.aspx

This is a rather rediculous argument to maintain the status quo and I don't think it's a huge priority with those who run the country either. I hate the way my bodyclock has to adjust twice a year and I am sure that most of the population do as well. You may also see the benefits as mentioned above. Dan, much as you hate the EU you cannot pin this one on them. :P

Oh Rosie if only you'd have read the thread and you'll see I made all those points about the supposed benefits along with linking to Peter Hitchens who explains the reasons why certain things like road deaths decreased in those years - so you may see the negatives (and the 'benefits' rubbished) if you look back when I was discussing this issue with Benji.

And as for the European Union, most of our laws come from that place now so I have quite good reason to suspect they have a hand in this/are pushing for it, or our government (who are pro-European Union) are simply implementing it for the apparent 'benefits' just as they implement costly business regulations which come from the European Union but all of a sudden, now i'm supposed to believe that the government is concerned with 'productivity' - it is a complete and utter whitewash and I don't believe a word they say, i've no reason to believe their line on anything.

I myself don't mind changing the clocks every year and i've never met anybody who has said anything of the sort.


but stays lighter later which is a more productive part of the day.

*rubs eyes* I have not once heard yourself complain about costly things to business (infact whenever I post ridiculous examples of EU legislation which cost business a lot of time and money, you are usually in full support of the legislative matters) nor do have I any reason to believe a government and its fellow 'opposition' parties when they tell me this will somehow help business - these three parties have done so much to damage business over the last few years that it is quite clear to see that, no, this is not about business at all.

This was tried and tested in the United Kingdom and it failed, why are we trying again?

[Chippiewill]

at least you wont get stabbed on the way home then
I do not currently get stabbed on the way home because it isn't dark then.

[Marbian]

I like it.. it'll make me feel like i got up early, and went bed early.. lol

[alexxxxx]

Posters in this thread seem to be purposely ignoring the curve aspect (which is exactly why sunrise comes in a curved shape, rather than a line) - shown by the dismissal of that picture of sunrise from NASA that I posted. Are we the only two people on this forum with a pair of working *aligned* eyes or what? :P

You have misunderstood, the curve is in the opposite direction in winter, where this will really have a great impact. On average over the course of the year, it's a straight line. and well done in getting an EU rant in! *clap clap*

and chippiewill, take a gun to school then no one will mess with you.[/SARCASM]

[Jordan]

tbh, I don't want to get into a rant, but the bit about being over portugal and not being over it well its true with the tilt... I went on paint and with all my skills i made a line over the picture undertaker gave us. Then I moved it until the line hit portugal. It shows that not even half of the UK is even hit sunset.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2qx3yc7.jpg

I wouldn't like to have this change tbh, there is no need of it.

And I might be being thick here but alex how does the curve change D:

[benjamin]

Good luck in the winter when everyone will have darkness until 9AM because that's what would happen.

thanks; now that you've wished us all luck i'm sure we'll be just fine.

because clearly luck is what we need to be able to function before 9am... or maybe just a decent nights sleep.

[GommeInc]

You have misunderstood, the curve is in the opposite direction in winter, where this will really have a great impact. On average over the course of the year, it's a straight line. and well done in getting an EU rant in! *clap clap*

and chippiewill, take a gun to school then no one will mess with you.[/SARCASM]
I personally do not have any issues with activity in Winter - it's miserable and dull to do anything remotely useful. An extra hour wouldn't help, especially when you'll be getting home just as darkness hits in (rather than leave work when it is pitch black), the extra hour won't help, or the extra 2 hours if the other idea that gets flung around is in effect too. Winter naturally is the most unhelpful season for a reason :P The change seems a bit unnecessary, particularly in Summer where we're sharing sunlight with Portugal, so the Olympics argument seems to not be a solid enough reason in my eyes.


And I might be being thick here but alex how does the curve change D:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/ks3bitesize/science/environment_earth_universe/astronomy_space/revise5.shtml

^ That pretty much explains it :)

[alexxxxx]

tbh, I don't want to get into a rant, but the bit about being over portugal and not being over it well its true with the tilt... I went on paint and with all my skills i made a line over the picture undertaker gave us. Then I moved it until the line hit portugal. It shows that not even half of the UK is even hit sunset.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2qx3yc7.jpg

I wouldn't like to have this change tbh, there is no need of it.

And I might be being thick here but alex how does the curve change D:

http://a1.phobos.apple.com/us/r1000/031/Purple/eb/58/20/mzl.cartgjar.320x480-75.jpg

this image (and the one above) shows the sunlight distribution when the northern hemisphere is in summer, hence why at the north pole it is constantly in sunlight in summer (as it is facing towards the sun).

http://a1.phobos.apple.com/us/r1000/031/Purple/91/85/72/mzl.oldjxhef.320x480-75.jpg

this image shows that the north pole is completely in darkness as it is winter in this picture.. although the picture is not of europe you can understand how the 'curve' changes. If you averaged out this curve over the course of a year, it would naturally average out as a straight line.

This is because the earth is tilted http://solar.steinbergs.us/images/jpgs/earth-rotate-R-sun.jpg. Without this tilt there would be no such thing as summer or winter.

thats the reason why time-zones are not allocated in a diagonal fashion, because over the course of the year, everything averages out. Each part of the world's surface gets equal amounts of sunlight over the whole year... around half which is why in the tropics, sunrise and sunset barely changes time over the whole year whilst in n europe in the summer, the sun might set late and rise very early and be the other way round in the winter. ;)