Wales says Yes in Referendum Vote

[Sarah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-12648649

Wales has said an emphatic Yes in the referendum on direct law-making powers for the assembly.

Almost all the 22 Welsh counties have declared, and all have backed change. Turnout is provisionally put at 35% across the nation.

A Yes vote will give the assembly direct law-making power in 20 devolved areas, such as health and education.

With only a couple of counties left to declare, the final result is now a formality.

Myself personally as a supporter of the welsh assembly government, I am happy with the outcome.
However the turnout is worrying!

[Conservative,]

Might as well just be an independent country now and learn to pay for yourselves instead of sponging off the British Government. And Scotland and Ireland can do that too and then the British Government can be the English Government and we'll all be happy.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I follow the line Enoch Powell took; if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are to have their own parliaments they may aswell be independent. I'm a unionist myself, but if the union is to break up then the union is to break up and it is time to make that choice. All of us at Westminister, or the end of the United Kingdom.

[Sarah]

Might as well just be an independent country now and learn to pay for yourselves instead of sponging off the British Government. And Scotland and Ireland can do that too and then the British Government can be the English Government and we'll all be happy.

It's not about independence, most people in Wales don't want independence. It's about streamlining what the Assembly can do and cutting costs waiting around for Westminster to give the "OK" on laws they want to pass. I personally do not want the break up of the United Kingdom.

[Conservative,]

I follow the line Enoch Powell took; if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are to have their own parliaments they may aswell be independent. I'm a unionist myself, but if the union is to break up then the union is to break up and it is time to make that choice. All of us at Westminister, or the end of the United Kingdom.

Agreed. It's completely pointless to have 3 Governments for separate countries sponging off 1 Government. All or nothing imo. I think it's ridiculous how the Scots, Welsh and Irish can vote for who runs England, but the English can't vote for who runs Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

Either we all vote for 1 central parliament (rather than these stupid, pointless extra parliaments wasting money) or we all vote for separate parliaments with separate laws, separate MPs etc.

---------- Post added 04-03-2011 at 02:44 PM ----------


It's not about independence, most people in Wales don't want independence. It's about streamlining what the Assembly can do and cutting costs waiting around for Westminster to give the "OK" on laws they want to pass. I personally do not want the break up of the United Kingdom.

But it's so pointless. The idea of evening having a Welsh Parliament is stupid imo. We can save money by only having 1 central parliament. As Dan said, all or nothing. We're all together in one central parliament, or separated into 4 separate parliaments.

[Sarah]

Agreed. It's completely pointless to have 3 Governments for separate countries sponging off 1 Government. All or nothing imo. I think it's ridiculous how the Scots, Welsh and Irish can vote for who runs England, but the English can't vote for who runs Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

Either we all vote for 1 central parliament (rather than these stupid, pointless extra parliaments wasting money) or we all vote for separate parliaments with separate laws, separate MPs etc.

I agree that its silly that Welsh/Scottish MPs can vote for issues that happen in England, but I feel without the Welsh Assembly wales would be overshadowed by the UK Parliament.

[Conservative,]

I agree that its silly that Welsh/Scottish MPs can vote for issues that happen in England, but I feel without the Welsh Assembly wales would be overshadowed by the UK Parliament.

By why is that a bad thing? It saves money, you still get your local MPs and votes and what not.

[Sarah]

By why is that a bad thing? It saves money, you still get your local MPs and votes and what not.

It's ok to be overshadowed? what.. Wales deserves as much as a voice as England - without the Welsh Assembly government I feel that wouldn't happen. Wales currently does not have powers to make laws on all matters, so it's not as if WestMinster aren't not involved in Wales?

[Conservative,]

It's ok to be overshadowed? what.. Wales deserves as much as a voice as England - without the Welsh Assembly government I feel that wouldn't happen. Wales currently does not have powers to make laws on all matters, so it's not as if WestMinster aren't not involved in Wales?

How do you not get a voice? All these extra assemblies are just another level of bureaucratic nonsense so failed politicians can get elected, paid too much and waste English money. Yes, English - because we're the only ones without an independent parliament. If we had one we could control our money.

The fact is Scotland, Wales and Ireland rely on the "British Parliament" for 1 reason - money. The "British" Government pays for the separate assemblies and therefore English people are spending taxes on something that doesn't have anything to do with them.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I can understand what Sarah means, the way in which Welsh MPs could be outvoted in Westminister - but thats part of being in the Union. I do think however that we should generally bring back localism (local referendums across the Kingdom) rather than basically undoing the union by giving each country its own parliament/assembly. That would mean the Kingdom would stay a United Kingdom, and local areas are more devolved.

In a way it is similar to the issue of the European Union, the fact we [UK] can be outvoted (on issues they allow the vote) is one reason I want out.

[Sarah]

How do you not get a voice? All these extra assemblies are just another level of bureaucratic nonsense so failed politicians can get elected, paid too much and waste English money. Yes, English - because we're the only ones without an independent parliament. If we had one we could control our money.

The fact is Scotland, Wales and Ireland rely on the "British Parliament" for 1 reason - money. The "British" Government pays for the separate assemblies and therefore English people are spending taxes on something that doesn't have anything to do with them.

Its widely known that English money is used to fund devolution government - Im not nor is anyone else going to deny that? Of course the Welsh assembly wants it to be funded by it's own people but it's not possible - I don't see you arguing against the London Assembly? Surely that is just a waste of money also then?


I can understand what Sarah means, the way in which Welsh MPs could be outvoted in Westminister - but thats part of being in the Union. I do think however that we should generally bring back localism (local referendums across the Kingdom) rather than basically undoing the union by giving each country its own parliament/assembly. That would mean the Kingdom would stay a United Kingdom, and local areas are more devolved.

In a way it is similar to the issue of the European Union, the fact we [UK] can be outvoted (on issues they allow the vote) is one reason I want out.

Thank you! Some sense! It's not that we don't want to be apart of the UK its just this the only successful way of getting our voices heard on our local issues in Wales. I agree with your Localism idea! It would probably be more effective and be more grass-rooted which people prefer.

[GommeInc]

I follow the line Enoch Powell took; if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are to have their own parliaments they may aswell be independent. I'm a unionist myself, but if the union is to break up then the union is to break up and it is time to make that choice. All of us at Westminister, or the end of the United Kingdom.
Agreed. There's no point having a Union other than as informality to show we're attached to each other. If they've got different Governments, then they're practically seperate countries with their own power. If it doesn't work out, they can direct power back to Westminster - if it does work out, then good for them.

[Conservative,]

Its widely known that English money is used to fund devolution government - Im not nor is anyone else going to deny that? Of course the Welsh assembly wants it to be funded by it's own people but it's not possible - I don't see you arguing against the London Assembly? Surely that is just a waste of money also then?



Thank you! Some sense! It's not that we don't want to be apart of the UK its just this the only successful way of getting our voices heard on our local issues in Wales. I agree with your Localism idea! It would probably be more effective and be more grass-rooted which people prefer.

The London assembly is also a waste of money and I don't see the point in it.

Just because you get outvoted doesn't mean you don't have a voice. That's like saying because you voted Labour and they didn't get into Government you don't have a voice.

I agree with Dan of having localism rather than these pointless assemblies for each country as well.

[Niall!]

How do you not get a voice? All these extra assemblies are just another level of bureaucratic nonsense so failed politicians can get elected, paid too much and waste English money. Yes, English - because we're the only ones without an independent parliament. If we had one we could control our money.

The fact is Scotland, Wales and Ireland rely on the "British Parliament" for 1 reason - money. The "British" Government pays for the separate assemblies and therefore English people are spending taxes on something that doesn't have anything to do with them.

Shouldn't have invaded us then, should you?

[Conservative,]

Shouldn't have invaded us then, should you?

Who is "us" exactly?

[Hecktix]

In my opinion, this will just separate the union until it falls part, with some indepdence claims from Scotland the union could easily be broken in the next ten years. The problem with individual parliaments within the union itself means that with different laws popping up in the different union countries, in my eyes it doesn't really fit the idea of a union. It makes much more sense to be together upon all things, I mean, as far as I can tell - whatever the individual parliaments are spending is coming from our taxes, if all our taxes are going into "one pot" then it's only right that that should be controlled by one parliament. It's like the Welsh Assembly offering to cover the increase in tuition fees for Welsh students - I can almost guaruntee this will eat up a huge part of the Welsh Budget, so are Wales then going to ask for money from English and Scottish taxpayers to fund the rest of the things they need? I'm with Dan (for once) on this, for the sake of the United Kingdom it should all be controlled through Westminster or we may as well split, be separate countries and have separate funds paid for by the taxpayer of the country, otherwise it's simply not fair to the other countries of the union.

[Catzsy]

Might as well just be an independent country now and learn to pay for yourselves instead of sponging off the British Government. And Scotland and Ireland can do that too and then the British Government can be the English Government and we'll all be happy.

Well tbh it would apply to all those who live outside London and the South East. Quite frankly you have a very uninformed view if you feel it is just the home nations who are subsidised and don't forget that Britain is paid for by all BRITISH taxpayers and there is no majority of the country for you to say 'we'll be happy' so get of your high horse please:P
The referendum passed for one reason and one reason only because the conservatives got into power and Wales is a labour heartland. There is no appetite to go any further down the road to
independence. I feel the union is safe and may well prosper at it now now catering for the diversity of its nations. Long live the UK as far as I am concerned. As far as Hecktix's point is concerned there is no tuition fees in Scotland either. They just spend the money differently - no-one is going to ask for further money. There is actually no change in the budget arrangements. It is still controlled at Westminster. Just to explain it further Wales already make laws but need the nod from Westminster until today. Nothing has been turned down so it will just mean less bureaucracy and the Welsh Ams will not be able to blame Westminster anymore which is a good thing as now they will become completely accountable.

[Jordy]

In my opinion, this will just separate the union until it falls part, with some indepdence claims from Scotland the union could easily be broken in the next ten years. The problem with individual parliaments within the union itself means that with different laws popping up in the different union countries, in my eyes it doesn't really fit the idea of a union. It makes much more sense to be together upon all things, I mean, as far as I can tell - whatever the individual parliaments are spending is coming from our taxes, if all our taxes are going into "one pot" then it's only right that that should be controlled by one parliament. It's like the Welsh Assembly offering to cover the increase in tuition fees for Welsh students - I can almost guaruntee this will eat up a huge part of the Welsh Budget, so are Wales then going to ask for money from English and Scottish taxpayers to fund the rest of the things they need? I'm with Dan (for once) on this, for the sake of the United Kingdom it should all be controlled through Westminster or we may as well split, be separate countries and have separate funds paid for by the taxpayer of the country, otherwise it's simply not fair to the other countries of the union.Well summarised there, I've been advocating this for quite a while.

It's deeply unfair how devolution is at the moment, English people don't even have a "national" parliament to air their views and then of course the devolved governments are taking out more money out the budget but paying the same taxes. People complain about the EU being unfair when it's just as bad on our own soil unfortunately, I consider it quite a big issue. Either we should go back to having one parliament (Westminster) for the whole union or we just scrap the whole thing, accelerate devolution until the UK becomes four separate issues, and some sort of a union for common ground (Defence and trade for instance). Unfortunately it's too late to go back to how it was, the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland will certainly not approve of going backwards so we'll probably continue with this unfair nonsense for a few decades, with little or no politicians daring to speak out about it due to fear of losing votes in the respective nations, and then eventually, and sadly, we'll become four individual nations :(

[Catzsy]

Well summarised there, I've been advocating this for quite a while.

It's deeply unfair how devolution is at the moment, English people don't even have a "national" parliament to air their views and then of course the devolved governments are taking out more money out the budget but paying the same taxes. People complain about the EU being unfair when it's just as bad on our own soil unfortunately, I consider it quite a big issue. Either we should go back to having one parliament (Westminster) for the whole union or we just scrap the whole thing, accelerate devolution until the UK becomes four separate issues, and some sort of a union for common ground (Defence and trade for instance). Unfortunately it's too late to go back to how it was, the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland will certainly not approve of going backwards so we'll probably continue with this unfair nonsense for a few decades, with little or no politicians daring to speak out about it due to fear of losing votes in the respective nations, and then eventually, and sadly, we'll become four individual nations :(

I agree about having an english parliament for issues that only effect england as this is what the nations have. Parliament would still be in charge of issues that effect the whole of the UK.

[Niall!]

Who is "us" exactly?

N. Ireland represent

[-:Undertaker:-]

N. Ireland represent

I'm assuming you are referring to British 'occupation' of Ireland and still view it as that? if so then..

What about the French who invaded England back in 1066? should everyone of French decent in England return to France?
What about the Ottomans who invaded the Byzantane Empire? should Turkey vacate itself of muslims?
What about the Spanish/Portugese colonised South America? should those hundreds of millions return back to the Iberian shoreline?
What about the entire world population, which is believed to have started in Africa? should we vacate it all?

I am afraid whether you like it or not Northern Ireland wishes to remain a part of the United Kingdom, despite the wishes of the ghastly IRA and its political mouthpiece, Sinn Fein. The referendum proved this and I think will continue to prove this, Northern Ireland remains very British for the foreseeable future. Ireland once owned that land yes, Britain now owns it proper as the people living there wish to be British and not Irish.

The same way if we were to return land to original owners, well we'd end up with everyone going back to Africa.


I agree about having an english parliament for issues that only effect england as this is what the nations have. Parliament would still be in charge of issues that effect the whole of the UK.

Or why not just have the sensible policy where Scottish MPs meet up weekly in Westminister to discuss solely Scottish matters and vice versa concerning Northern Ireland, England and Wales? saves the trouble of more layers of government along with having to suffer the building of places such as the Scottish parliament which has to be the most ugly structure ever built by man. :P


The UKIP Solution

The Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly will be retained but MSPs and Assembly Members for Wales and Northern Ireland will be scrapped.
An ‘English Parliament’ [a Grand Committee of UK MPs with English constituencies] will sit in the present House of Commons on ‘English Days’ to debate English affairs and English legislation.
Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Westminster MPs would sit as members of their respective national parliaments/assmblies (129 MSPs would therefore be reduced to 55 dual mandate Scottish MPs, the 60 Welsh Assembly members would be replaced by the 32 Welsh Westminster MPs and the 108 Members of the Northern Ireland Legislative Assembly will be replaced by 18 Westminster representatives).
For some time in every month, assuming 1 week, the national bodies of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would meet in plenary within their home nations, and conduct additional committee work during Westminster weeks or recesses, as necessary.
The unicameral nature of the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish national chambers would be addressed by the House of Commons when it meets as the UK Parliament (the dual mandate chambers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would be scrutinised by Westminster MPs).
England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will each have their own First Minister selected from among their Westminster MPs.
Devolved powers would be amended to prevent any UK citizen being disadvantaged in another nation within the UK (for example it would not be possible for Scottish universities to charge English students for services that they provide for free to Scottish students and students from other EU nations).
Dependent on function Whitehall will be reorganised into either UK-wide or English departments. For example, a UK Department of Health will specify common standards, frameworks and approaches for the NHS across the UK, but national bodies will hold the Northern Irish NHS, Scottish NHS, Welsh NHS and English NHS to account at the national level.
UKIP would seek a fair and balanced new alternative to the Barnett Formula based on rural, suburban and urban criteria, and on need, not arbitrary measures.

This is the correct way to deal with devolution in my eyes, in detail. There really is no point in the Union is it is to be seperated by national parliaments, as thats reverting back to de facto independence (and yes, if the people want independence then that is perfectly fine).

But in present form it is just turning into a cash cow, the cow being England.

[Niall!]

I'm assuming you are referring to British 'occupation' of Ireland and still view it as that? if so then..

What about the French who invaded England back in 1066? should everyone of French decent in England return to France?
What about the Ottomans who invaded the Byzantane Empire? should Turkey vacate itself of muslims?
What about the Spanish/Portugese colonised South America? should those hundreds of millions return back to the Iberian shoreline?
What about the entire world population, which is believed to have started in Africa? should we vacate it all?

I am afraid whether you like it or not Northern Ireland wishes to remain a part of the United Kingdom, despite the wishes of the ghastly IRA and its political mouthpiece, Sinn Fein. The referendum proved this and I think will continue to prove this, Northern Ireland remains very British for the foreseeable future. Ireland once owned that land yes, Britain now owns it proper as the people living there wish to be British and not Irish.

The same way if we were to return land to original owners, well we'd end up with everyone going back to Africa.



Or why not just have the sensible policy where Scottish MPs meet up weekly in Westminister to discuss solely Scottish matters and vice versa concerning Northern Ireland, England and Wales? saves the trouble of more layers of government along with having to suffer the building of places such as the Scottish parliament which has to be the most ugly structure ever built by man. :P


[/LIST]
This is the correct way to deal with devolution in my eyes, in detail. There really is no point in the Union is it is to be seperated by national parliaments, as thats reverting back to de facto independence (and yes, if the people want independence then that is perfectly fine).

But in present form it is just turning into a cash cow, the cow being England.

Huh? I don't mind NI being part of britain. I was replying to his complaining about how NI/scotland/wales are draining england dry.

[Sarah]

In my opinion, this will just separate the union until it falls part, with some indepdence claims from Scotland the union could easily be broken in the next ten years. The problem with individual parliaments within the union itself means that with different laws popping up in the different union countries, in my eyes it doesn't really fit the idea of a union. It makes much more sense to be together upon all things, I mean, as far as I can tell - whatever the individual parliaments are spending is coming from our taxes, if all our taxes are going into "one pot" then it's only right that that should be controlled by one parliament. It's like the Welsh Assembly offering to cover the increase in tuition fees for Welsh students - I can almost guaruntee this will eat up a huge part of the Welsh Budget, so are Wales then going to ask for money from English and Scottish taxpayers to fund the rest of the things they need? I'm with Dan (for once) on this, for the sake of the United Kingdom it should all be controlled through Westminster or we may as well split, be separate countries and have separate funds paid for by the taxpayer of the country, otherwise it's simply not fair to the other countries of the union.

The welsh assembly government doesn't dictate how much money it should get - its all up to westminster, also the budget for wales was decided before the tuition fees system was set up.



The UKIP Solution
The Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly will be retained but MSPs and Assembly Members for Wales and Northern Ireland will be scrapped.
An ‘English Parliament’ [a Grand Committee of UK MPs with English constituencies] will sit in the present House of Commons on ‘English Days’ to debate English affairs and English legislation.
Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Westminster MPs would sit as members of their respective national parliaments/assmblies (129 MSPs would therefore be reduced to 55 dual mandate Scottish MPs, the 60 Welsh Assembly members would be replaced by the 32 Welsh Westminster MPs and the 108 Members of the Northern Ireland Legislative Assembly will be replaced by 18 Westminster representatives).
For some time in every month, assuming 1 week, the national bodies of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would meet in plenary within their home nations, and conduct additional committee work during Westminster weeks or recesses, as necessary.
The unicameral nature of the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish national chambers would be addressed by the House of Commons when it meets as the UK Parliament (the dual mandate chambers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would be scrutinised by Westminster MPs).
England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will each have their own First Minister selected from among their Westminster MPs.
Devolved powers would be amended to prevent any UK citizen being disadvantaged in another nation within the UK (for example it would not be possible for Scottish universities to charge English students for services that they provide for free to Scottish students and students from other EU nations).
Dependent on function Whitehall will be reorganised into either UK-wide or English departments. For example, a UK Department of Health will specify common standards, frameworks and approaches for the NHS across the UK, but national bodies will hold the Northern Irish NHS, Scottish NHS, Welsh NHS and English NHS to account at the national level.
UKIP would seek a fair and balanced new alternative to the Barnett Formula based on rural, suburban and urban criteria, and on need, not arbitrary measures.


Correct me if I'm wrong haha - but is that saying have devolution within westminster? As in MPs from the different home nations can only decide issues from their different nations? If it is I like it and would probably save loads of money. The issue of unfairness in different nations (like university fees) is that how would they decide? It's clear that Scottish MSP don't want tuition fee's and the Welsh do but not so high. In a situation where the English MPs want to raise it (number: 533) and the welsh (40) and the Scotts (59) and N.Ireland (18) they would still be outnumbered? Unless the number of MPs from each nation was the same then surely it wouldn't be equal and one would always dominate the others.

[Chippiewill]

I follow the line Enoch Powell took; if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are to have their own parliaments they may aswell be independent. I'm a unionist myself, but if the union is to break up then the union is to break up and it is time to make that choice. All of us at Westminister, or the end of the United Kingdom.
This is so ironic that I fell off my chair.

[Conservative,]

The welsh assembly government doesn't dictate how much money it should get - its all up to westminster, also the budget for wales was decided before the tuition fees system was set up.




Correct me if I'm wrong haha - but is that saying have devolution within westminster? As in MPs from the different home nations can only decide issues from their different nations? If it is I like it and would probably save loads of money. The issue of unfairness in different nations (like university fees) is that how would they decide? It's clear that Scottish MSP don't want tuition fee's and the Welsh do but not so high. In a situation where the English MPs want to raise it (number: 533) and the welsh (40) and the Scotts (59) and N.Ireland (18) they would still be outnumbered? Unless the number of MPs from each nation was the same then surely it wouldn't be equal and one would always dominate the others.

It would have it so that tuition fees are decided by the national parliament/assembly but then it can't be unfair on other British nations (eg; Scots can't charge the English for going to Scottish Unis etc). And it IS fair with that amount of MPs for each country, because it's roughly the proportion of population and country. I think it's stupid to have 100 MPs representing 60 million people (England) and another 100 representing 3million people (wales). In fact, with that logic England should have 800 MPs but there we go.

[Catzsy]

It would have it so that tuition fees are decided by the national parliament/assembly but then it can't be unfair on other British nations (eg; Scots can't charge the English for going to Scottish Unis etc). And it IS fair with that amount of MPs for each country, because it's roughly the proportion of population and country. I think it's stupid to have 100 MPs representing 60 million people (England) and another 100 representing 3million people (wales). In fact, with that logic England should have 800 MPs but there we go.
Wales doesn't have 100 MPs it has 40. England has 533. This would suggest historically that what the MPs for England want it gets, surely. There is nothing wrong with diversity. If you feel that English students should not be paying so much you should lobby your MPs to get it changed. It is all to do with different priorities. Why the heck would we want to pay for 800 MPs' - it would cost millions.

[Sarah]

It would have it so that tuition fees are decided by the national parliament/assembly but then it can't be unfair on other British nations (eg; Scots can't charge the English for going to Scottish Unis etc). And it IS fair with that amount of MPs for each country, because it's roughly the proportion of population and country. I think it's stupid to have 100 MPs representing 60 million people (England) and another 100 representing 3million people (wales). In fact, with that logic England should have 800 MPs but there we go.

Which is highlighting my point earlier about overshadowed. If wales doesn't want something then it shouldn't have to put up with something because England want it. This (in my eyes) makes devolution more important.

Scotland, N.Ireland and Wales shouldn't have to have something that it potentially doesn't want because England does - Its not representing everyone just England.

[redtom]

Only read a couple of post but a few people strongly against it don't have a clue what there talking about, some of the reasons you've put are laughable. Do a bit of research before shouting your opinions.

Sorry if it sounds rude its not meant to be just cba writing it in a way which sounds all happy and nice :P