French Burka Ban comes into force

[Suspective]

France's ban on full face veils, a first in Europe, went into force today, exposing anyone who wears the Muslim niqab or burqa in public to fines of 150 euros ($216).

A Muslim property dealer, who is urging women to keep wearing the veil if they want to, has urged supporters to go to Notre Dame cathedral in central Paris for a silent prayer during the day, and is also offering to help people pay the fines.

France's five-million-strong Muslim minority is Western Europe's largest, but fewer than 2,000 women are believed actually to wear a full face veil.

What do you think about the ban? Is it to far? And would you support a similar ban in the United Kingdom?

[-Eyeless-]

Of course it is too far, I don't see why they have the right to enforce this ban, lets be honest its not like 2,000 people are even that much in the Muslim community in France, let alone the overall population.

[rnix]

We wont do this though, thats the thing. Seems we want to stay sweet to everyone and let them walk all over us. :)

[-Eyeless-]

Look at it this way, we don't stop Catholics having mass, when this is a Protestant country, and the majority of people living here aren't even religious, so why would we stop women wearing burkas? No need it is just a pointless exercise.

[Inseriousity.]

No I don't agree with it. I don't think it's right to force people what to wear, whether that's a Muslim man or the State. The problem however arises due to ignorance. It seems to be the Western idea that these women are oppressed, that they have no option and are forced to wear it by their husbands. While I'm not saying that this doesn't happen, I think it's ridiculous to assume that it's the case for every Muslim woman. There are a whole host of reasons why someone would wear the burqa and therefore it'd be wrong to ban it for just one of the many reasons.

[-Eyeless-]

No I don't agree with it. I don't think it's right to force people what to wear, whether that's a Muslim man or the State. The problem however arises due to ignorance. It seems to be the Western idea that these women are oppressed, that they have no option and are forced to wear it by their husbands. While I'm not saying that this doesn't happen, I think it's ridiculous to assume that it's the case for every Muslim woman. There are a whole host of reasons why someone would wear the burqa and therefore it'd be wrong to ban it for just one of the many reasons.

Agreed, a lot of Muslim Women wear the Burka out of choice and not out of being forced, though it does happen it isn't always the case.

[luce]

It's funny because Islam actually originated in Spian/France and spread through Europe into the middle east and now they're banning practically their own religious dress. However while you may compare it to being like Catholics taking mass it's not. Unfortunately people do misuse the burka there is no way of telling who is under it and the french obviously see that as too much of a security risk :)

[-Eyeless-]

That was a very open comparison, two religious things, not necessarily similar xD. And while I do understand the security risk its still not a reason to remove some basic human right to dress how you want to and practice your religion.

[AgnesIO]

I agree with it, since whether it is right or not, they do scare people.

The fact you can walk through shops with a burqa - but not wear a hoody is ludicrous.

---------- Post added 11-04-2011 at 02:23 PM ----------


That was a very open comparison, two religious things, not necessarily similar xD. And while I do understand the security risk its still not a reason to remove some basic human right to dress how you want to and practice your religion.

The thing is, there is nothing in the Qur'an saying women should wear them - it is just some weird ideology.

[Fez]

It's illegal to wear a balaclava in public, so naturally, anything that hides your identity is equally illegal.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Look at it this way, we don't stop Catholics having mass, when this is a Protestant country, and the majority of people living here aren't even religious, so why would we stop women wearing burkas? No need it is just a pointless exercise.

The burka is not a part of the Islamic faith, and even if it were to be a part of the the faith - that is still not a reason to allow this to go on whatever your view, unless you subscribe to the totally unworkable ideology of multi-culturalism of which we have seen the results of; ghettoisation.

Now I don't like the state telling people what they can and cannot wear as I think its very authoritarian just as the last government was and the present government is with their trashing of our ancient civil liberties which I think should be more strongly opposed rather than opposing a hypothetical ban which is unlikely to happen in this country anyway. But what I do support, and its part of the UKIP manifesto which floated this idea over a year ago in this country - is to allow shops/private business the option to ban the burka alongside helmets etc if they should wish to do so meaning that the people have the choice of what to do rather than the state arresting people for wearing a piece of cloth over their face.

That is a correct way to go about it in my opinion but on the other hand I can understand why many would want an outright ban due to the fact they have been flooded with immigration and now when they walk around their local town/village, a large part of the populace are wearing burkas - I wouldn't like to live amongst that and I doubt you would either. Of course, mass immigration is yet another issue which also needs to be resolved.


It's funny because Islam actually originated in Spian/France and spread through Europe into the middle east and now they're banning practically their own religious dress. However while you may compare it to being like Catholics taking mass it's not. Unfortunately people do misuse the burka there is no way of telling who is under it and the french obviously see that as too much of a security risk :)

As far as i'm aware, Islam did not originate in Europe but in the Middle East although yes Spain was once muslim - just as we were once Catholic.

[matt$]

As undertaker said the burka isn't part of the islam culture and if im not mistaken wasn't it worn in middle east due to hot weather etc or something but anyway, if we're not aloud to wear a hoody in most shops then why should they be able to cover their entire face. The entire world is just trying too hard to not offend anyone.

[Alkaz]

When you hear stories of women being ushered out of a super market by security because she wouldn't leave after a muslim wouldn't serve her because she was wearing a cross I think it's good to hear things like this. I know that we wouldn't dare enforce that here but I think it's good that some countries are taking a stand. If you went over to some of those far eastern countries and did what some people do here, you would be hung, drawn and quartered.

[Josh]

Taking a right away from one minority, to protect the right for the majority.

I agree with the ban. Sure, it infringes on people's rights, but by keeping them, people may feel unsafe.

[beth]

The burka is not a part of the Islamic faith, and even if it were to be a part of the the faith - that is still not a reason to allow this to go on whatever your view, unless you subscribe to the totally unworkable ideology of multi-culturalism of which we have seen the results of; ghettoisation.

Now I don't like the state telling people what they can and cannot wear as I think its very authoritarian just as the last government was and the present government is with their trashing of our ancient civil liberties which I think should be more strongly opposed rather than opposing a hypothetical ban which is unlikely to happen in this country anyway. But what I do support, and its part of the UKIP manifesto which floated this idea over a year ago in this country - is to allow shops/private business the option to ban the burka alongside helmets etc if they should wish to do so meaning that the people have the choice of what to do rather than the state arresting people for wearing a piece of cloth over their face.

That is a correct way to go about it in my opinion but on the other hand I can understand why many would want an outright ban due to the fact they have been flooded with immigration and now when they walk around their local town/village, a large part of the populace are wearing burkas - I wouldn't like to live amongst that and I doubt you would either. Of course, mass immigration is yet another issue which also needs to be resolved.



As far as i'm aware, Islam did not originate in Europe but in the Middle East although yes Spain was once muslim - just as we were once Catholic.

my lord, we agree for once. totally agree with this. don't like the principle of forcing people into doing something, but i do believe the burka does not "work" as such in a modern, western world.
and yeh, spain/portugal that area was once muslim, in shakespeare's work the spanish are refered to as arabs.

[Sian]

oh good, people who agree with me. It's not right, it's part of their religious practice and beliefs and it should be left alone. If people are scared of seeing people in burkhas they need to get over it - unless someone attacked them wearing one of course.

[beth]

oh good, people who agree with me. It's not right, it's part of their religious practice and beliefs and it should be left alone. If people are scared of seeing people in burkhas they need to get over it - unless someone attacked them wearing one of course.

it's not a case of being "scared", the burka hides identity and in a modern world, i don't believe someones identity should be withheld.

[Eoin247]

It's funny because Islam actually originated in Spian/France and spread through Europe into the middle east and now they're banning practically their own religious dress. However while you may compare it to being like Catholics taking mass it's not. Unfortunately people do misuse the burka there is no way of telling who is under it and the french obviously see that as too much of a security risk :)

Not true at all. It originated in the area of what was Arabia in the middle east. Don't know where you got this from lol.

I agree that covering up your entire facial features is a security risk and so it's rightfully banned.

The funny thing is that this also applies to beekeepers. Apparently theres now some big problem with them wearing them in some places lol.

[Sian]

I think it's a case of being scared if people can't hide their identity, of course it is seen as being linked to crime but I still think it's a bit ridiculous. Though i'd probably allow people to hide their faces anyway.

[Niall!]

If I was to go out in a balaclava I would be arrested most likely. No one should have to deal with faceless figures walking down the street wondering who is under there. One of them sat about 2 rows down from me on a plane journey last christmas and I was genuinely terrified, simply because I couldn't see their face.

I know she was HOPEFULLY screened and assessed beforehand, but it was really frightening.

[Suspective]

If I was to go out in a balaclava I would be arrested most likely. No one should have to deal with faceless figures walking down the street wondering who is under there. One of them sat about 2 rows down from me on a plane journey last christmas and I was genuinely terrified, simply because there was one passenger on the plane that could have been anybody.

I know she was HOPEFULLY screened and assessed beforehand, but it was really frightening.

I'm sure I would of been to. Its not the fact they are Muslim either, its just because you cannot see them and it gives you a peace of mind if you can see the person. They are only banning two forms of head garnets, which conceal the whole head. Muslims have more than one time of head gear/veil and I'm sure they can wear another type.

I don't see it as a big problem, its just allowing everyone in society to be able to see and interact with each other more easily.

[Mathew]

I do find this quite depressing when something like this is banned. The Burka, just like many other iconic items throughout the world, goes back centuries and it seems such a shame to ban something which has happened for so long; all in the name of the modern world and security.

However, I do support the ban and I do think it should be implemented in the UK. If people can't wear hoodies / balaclavas in public then I think it's silly that Muslim women should be allowed to wear the burka. Obviously though, the UK is far too liberal and try to please everyone. It's silly because we try so hard to avoid being racist to people.. that we just end up being racist to ourselves; and that is where the problem lies with many of the messed up laws and opinions in this country.

Yeah I agree. Ban the burka or lift the ban on other face items.

[Rozi]

I think people ignore a hugely important factor when they talk about the burka ban, and the possibility of it in this country. England is a country that fully embraces multi-culturalism and endorses it, but France takes the view that if you want to live in their country, you have to live like the majority of the culture there. This means they have no faith schools and no religious symbols are allowed in schools (including crosses, turbans etc).

I personally believe that a ban on the burka is wrong, repressing freedom of expression etc but does tie in with the kind of society France wants. The ban on the burka could not, and never would, happen here unless we have a complete policy U-turn.

I believe that in some situations the burka has no place, in banks and other such places where identification is required, but the right to wear it should never be revoked in our society.

[jackass]

I am all for this. I seriously hope it comes into action here in the UK. It could be anyone behind that veil!

[Fez]

I do find this quite depressing when something like this is banned. The Burka, just like many other iconic items throughout the world, goes back centuries and it seems such a shame to ban something which has happened for so long; all in the name of the modern world and security.

However, I do support the ban and I do think it should be implemented in the UK. If people can't wear hoodies / balaclavas in public then I think it's silly that Muslim women should be allowed to wear the burka. Obviously though, the UK is far too liberal and try to please everyone. It's silly because we try so hard to avoid being racist to people.. that we just end up being racist to ourselves; and that is where the problem lies with many of the messed up laws and opinions in this country.

Yeah I agree. Ban the burka or lift the ban on other face items.

Sorry but... you're depressed when something like this is banned in the name of security, but you happily support a ban in the name of security?

[The Don]

It's not actually part of the religion to wear them, it's just enforced by the men.

[Mathew]

Sorry but... you're depressed when something like this is banned in the name of security, but you happily support a ban in the name of security?
Hence why I've given two lines of thought to this matter.

It's quite upsetting to know that years of tradition is going down the drain thanks to the modern world. But then upon closer inspection, it really is for the best because of the current bans on balaclavas (and bee-keepers helmets apparently :P).

[-:Undertaker:-]

I think people ignore a hugely important factor when they talk about the burka ban, and the possibility of it in this country. England is a country that fully embraces multi-culturalism and endorses it, but France takes the view that if you want to live in their country, you have to live like the majority of the culture there. This means they have no faith schools and no religious symbols are allowed in schools (including crosses, turbans etc).

I personally believe that a ban on the burka is wrong, repressing freedom of expression etc but does tie in with the kind of society France wants. The ban on the burka could not, and never would, happen here unless we have a complete policy U-turn.

I believe that in some situations the burka has no place, in banks and other such places where identification is required, but the right to wear it should never be revoked in our society.

Who endorses multi-culturalism? the politicians? certainly not the people. Multi-culturalism is often confused with multi-racialism, for the definition and the topic explained very well by Douglas Murray see the video from 1:35 to 3:55;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn7EaTh1gL4

I certainly oppose multi-culturalism and I suspect a fairly large majority do, even those who are intially supporters of the policy (due to its pandering, inclusive-sounding name) I suspect would reconsider after hearing the true meaning and implications of multi-culturalism which Murray explains rather well in the video above.

[Rozi]

It's not actually part of the religion to wear them, it's just enforced by the men.

ahaha god this is SUCH a lie. Yes, maybe some Muslim women who don't want to wear the burka or a headscarf are forced to, but I've spoken to many Muslim girls my age about wearing a headscarf, and whether they'd want to wear a burka and every single response has been the same: that they do it because they WANT to and have considered wearing a burka out of choice. One of my close Muslim friends went to a predominantly Muslim college because she wanted to wear a burka somewhere where she felt others would understand her choice.

[-:Undertaker:-]

ahaha god this is SUCH a lie. Yes, maybe some Muslim women who don't want to wear the burka or a headscarf are forced to, but I've spoken to many Muslim girls my age about wearing a headscarf, and whether they'd want to wear a burka and every single response has been the same: that they do it because they WANT to and have considered wearing a burka out of choice. One of my close Muslim friends went to a predominantly Muslim college because she wanted to wear a burka somewhere where she felt others would understand her choice.

But would you or she be accepting of the choice of say a shop owner who did not want the burka worn on his premises?

[Rozi]

But would you or she be accepting of the choice of say a shop owner who did not want the burka worn on his premises?

If she was wearing a full face covering burqa, then yes, but not if she was just wearing a hijab and a Abaya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaya). I do believe the reqest to see a face, if asked politely, should be granted if your face is covered, and I'm pretty sure she does to.

[The Don]

ahaha god this is SUCH a lie. Yes, maybe some Muslim women who don't want to wear the burka or a headscarf are forced to, but I've spoken to many Muslim girls my age about wearing a headscarf, and whether they'd want to wear a burka and every single response has been the same: that they do it because they WANT to and have considered wearing a burka out of choice. One of my close Muslim friends went to a predominantly Muslim college because she wanted to wear a burka somewhere where she felt others would understand her choice.

But where in the religion does it say they have to? If they were forced to due to the religion, then maybe this decision is wrong. But to my understanding it isn't, so therefore they should follow the rules, it is unfortnunet though, I'm not denying that.

[Rozi]

But where in the religion does it say they have to? If they were forced to due to the religion, then maybe this decision is wrong. But to my understanding it isn't, so therefore they should follow the rules, it is unfortnunet though, I'm not denying that.

I'm not sure I understand your point, are you saying that because they're not FORCED to do something they shouldn't, despite the fact they want to? :S it's an issue that comes down to modesty, and to a certain sense, purity. If they want to be modest in the way they want to, then I really cannot see why this shouldn't be allowed except in situations where there is a need, or a request, to show your full face.

[The Don]

I'm not sure I understand your point, are you saying that because they're not FORCED to do something they shouldn't, despite the fact they want to? :S it's an issue that comes down to modesty, and to a certain sense, purity. If they want to be modest in the way they want to, then I really cannot see why this shouldn't be allowed except in situations where there is a need, or a request, to show your full face.

no i'm saying that if their religion forced them to wear them then the goverment wouldn't have a leg to stand on and shouldn't force them to not wear them.

[Ajthedragon]

Good for them. They should have to integrate into our culture, we seem to have to in places like Dubai otherwise we get arrested.

[ifuseekamy]

Big deal. The Qur'an only specifies that they should cover their chest and not wear short dresses. Everything else is cultural nonsense. In fact it is muslim men who shouldn't be staring at women, if they do then the sin is on them. Of course despite it being a massive sin to edit and reinterpret the holy books, it's been done since church was institutionalised.

[Eoin247]

Good for them. They should have to integrate into our culture, we seem to have to in places like Dubai otherwise we get arrested.

A good point I forgot to mention before actualy. A British couple got arrested in the UAE for publicaly kissing not too long ago I believe.

[Lamz]

I agree with this ban even though this ban will never be brang into enland. and it can't.

*Removed*
it ill start a riot
-we are already targets for terrorism
-its kind of hipocritical. nothing in england is english. Tea isn't english. Our "seuvenior's" are made in thalind & china. the queen is german etc...

(i think the last bit didn't make sense)

Edited by Catz (Forum Super Moderator): Please no make comments that could offend other members

[Catzsy]

It's illegal to wear a balaclava in public, so naturally, anything that hides your identity is equally illegal.

It is not illegal in the UK to wear a balaclava. Some places ask you to remove them though like motor cycle helmets.

This is quite interesting as there was a demonstration in Paris and a whole crowd turned up with their faces covered with Masks, balaclavas, motorcycle helmets etc and it was only the woman wearing the burka that got arrested. Only 2000 woman wear them - seems to just be Sarkozy(sic) trying to drum up votes but I think it will backfire badly on him. This is going to run and run.

[GommeInc]

We're both entirely different types of culture. France do not want it and voted for the ban, so it's up to them. I can see why they have banned it in some places, like identity and France are a bit picky with that even if you're wearing a hoody with the hood down (you get watched closely :P). It's not even a recognised religious garment, it just appeared and became heavily associated with the Islamic faith. It's more known as a culturual garment making women out to be possessions :/

[alexxxxx]

It is not illegal in the UK to wear a balaclava. Some places ask you to remove them though like motor cycle helmets.

This is quite interesting as there was a demonstration in Paris and a whole crowd turned up with their faces covered with Masks, balaclavas, motorcycle helmets etc and it was only the woman wearing the burka that got arrested. Only 2000 woman wear them - seems to just be Sarkozy(sic) trying to drum up votes but I think it will backfire badly on him. This is going to run and run.

Rising front nationale headed by le pen's daughter is basically making big grounds (much more active politically in france than the BNP) and he wants to make sure he doesn't lose any ground to them.

and to people saying 'oh and what happens if a shop owner wants people to take off their burkha' - AFAIK it isn't actually illegal to ask people to not wear one and shop owners are free to serve whoever (as long as they aren't being discriminating). If they have a rule saying faces must be shown (no balaclavas, no bike helmets) i can't see why they wouldn't be allowed as it could be argued it is reasonable. However - the woman in the burkha is equally entitled to go to the press and say that she thought the shop owner was being unfair etc etc, does a shop owner want their shop in a negative light?

[GommeInc]

Rising front nationale headed by le pen's daughter is basically making big grounds (much more active politically in france than the BNP) and he wants to make sure he doesn't lose any ground to them.

and to people saying 'oh and what happens if a shop owner wants people to take off their burkha' - AFAIK it isn't actually illegal to ask people to not wear one and shop owners are free to serve whoever (as long as they aren't being discriminating). If they have a rule saying faces must be shown (no balaclavas, no bike helmets) i can't see why they wouldn't be allowed as it could be argued it is reasonable. However - the woman in the burkha is equally entitled to go to the press and say that she thought the shop owner was being unfair etc etc, does a shop owner want their shop in a negative light?
Depends how you interpret the law really. The Equality Act 2010 might be used in some cases where a woman wearing a Burkha (or any other individual, man, woman or religion) is asked to remove the clothing or reveal her face. They could argue that they are being treated unfairly and their beliefs are being targetted, whether the shop owner is being polite or not. It was used a lot between the Christian couple who were brought to court by a gay couple, and the Christian couple lost because the business is a seperate individual to their own beliefs. So a shop owner could easily be attacked in the same way.

That said, many women who wear garments that cover their face happily remove them because they have some amount of common decency and do not want to cause any fuss. It's only irritable people who would dare do such a thing.