Coalition just the same as Labour? they prove it everyday, now with ID cards

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/8526946/Coalition-builds-new-national-identity-system.html
Coalition builds new national identity system

The Coalition has quietly begun work on a new national identity system, less than a year after it scrapped Labour’s derided ID cards.


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01790/id-card_1790880c.jpg
Labour's ID cards were killed off by a civil liberties outcry



A prototype of the new system is due to be in place as soon as October this year. It will aim to reliably identify users of government websites, as part of plans to deliver more public services via the web. George Osborne believes the shift online will cut Whitehall administration costs and so help soften the blow of spending cuts over the next few years. Several private companies that already hold personal data, including credit card providers, will be involved in the system.

Such firms have already verified their customers’ identities, so privacy campaigners hope government will not itself collect personal data, in contrast to the National Identity Register that was to be the basis of ID cards. Visa is known to be involved in the plans and is conducting trials that would allow its customers to log in to government websites using credit card details.

“Currently customers have to enter multiple login details and passwords to access different public services, sometimes on the same website,” said Francis Maude, the Cabinet Office minister responsible for the cross-government plan. “This involves significant duplication, is expensive to operate and is highly inconvenient for users.” He also claimed the new scheme, dubbed “identity assurance”, would also make it more difficult for fraudsters to dupe the benefits and tax systems. The government has informed privacy campaigners such as the pressure group NO2ID about the plans, in an attempt to avoid the civil liberties outcry that ultimately destroyed ID cards.

But Guy Herbert, NO2ID’s general secretary warned that “the devil will be in the details and especially the legal details” of the new scheme. He said the Cabinet Office had not yet offered details despite its tight schedule. “It’s not a bad thing in itself to check that the person you are talking to is the person you want to talk to,” Mr Herbert said. “But whatever the good intentions at the outset, the fear will always be that the bureaucratic imperative to collect and share more data about the public will take over."

Identity assurance will be implemented from August next year as part of major government initiatives such as forthcoming radical reforms to the benefits system and improvements to online tax assessments. It will then gradually be extended so users will be able to use the same login for all public services online.

Well here we go again, and yet everytime I compare just how the same they are on the economy, education, healthcare, military, foreign policy, the EU and so forth I simply get brushed aside as though what i'm saying is just simply inconvientent in the scheme of red vs blue vs yellow. But here we are again, faced with a government which is the same as the last government which even copies the last government on the very few things it *said* it disagreed on.

I could have said it earlier (as I did) in the fact that the Conservatives afterall were the ones who thought of ID cards in the first place, with Michael Howard producing the first government green paper on this sinister idea.

I can't sum it up better than this really,


@Nigel_Farage (http://twitter.com/#%21/Nigel_Farage) Nigel Farage
Coalition I'd cards plan shows Big Government never stops. Only the rosettes are a different colour; the people are just the same

Think the unliberal undemocratic Liberal Democrats will save your civil liberties? think again and wake up. I think maybe its certainly time the Labour Party, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats all merged into one coalition and then a real opposition, perhaps still unformed, could challenge them on this issue among many and say that "no actually, we shouldn't treat people guilty until proven innocent." - But that of course won't happen until you stop voting for them in droves.

Thoughts? are the parties different in any way to one another? should we be forced to carry ID cards?

[Conservative,]

I like the idea of ID cards because it stops, or helps prevent, illegal immigration. However I don't like it because I won't be able to get beer by claiming I'm 18 when I'm 16 with a car >_> (Blue Badge ftw).

But yeah I think in general it is a good idea, but if they thought it was a good idea they shouldn't have scrapped it because it just makes them look hypocritical now.

[Mathew]

I've always been a fan of ID Cards to be honest. It reminds me if when we go on a cruise and everyone is given their room key on a little card with their name, DOB, etc; you can also pay for stuff on it at the bars and shops which is brilliant. :P

I think ID Cards are a good way to know exactly who is who and I think it can only be beneficial. If this was done the right way, then they'd have a biometric chip on them which, upon swiping, it would give photographs of the pupil and fingerprint. It would make border control in countries such as the United States much easier because all you'd need to do is swipe your card. It's like carrying a mini-passport and I think it has potential.

Interesting to see that they've brought it back after shooting it down though. It appears to be arguing for the sake of arguing in Parliament lately. Oh you're a Labour MP so obviously your idea if ****e, and the likes....

[Technologic]

From what I understand from this highly informative article the government wants to bring in a standardised system by which everyone has a single log in for the various government websites to reduce costs? This is hardly a return to ID cards....

[GommeInc]

From what I understand from this highly informative article the government wants to bring in a standardised system by which everyone has a single log in for the various government websites to reduce costs? This is hardly a return to ID cards....
We log in to the Government websites? :S I've never done that :O

[dbgtz]

We log in to the Government websites? :S I've never done that :O

Setting up for the future? Digital elections? Maybe? I don't actually see why it hasn't been done already but lol.

Anyway I don't see the problem with ID cards.

[AgnesIO]

Setting up for the future? Digital elections? Maybe? I don't actually see why it hasn't been done already but lol.

Anyway I don't see the problem with ID cards.

Because Labour/Conservatives/LD suggested them, therefore they are a ridiculous idea.

--

Nothing against ID card, would be helpful imo

[GommeInc]

Is the ID card really that important? It could just work off the same, successful idea as the NHS card which just logs you in and contains a quick link to your NHS data, prescriptions etc. It holds no information and requires a password I believe. If its only use is to log you in then they may aswell take this option, it seems cheaper too.

Call it a Citizens ID card or something less scary and important.

EDIT: Are we the only country considering having these? I won't say I'd use it, I have a driving license and passport for a reason - the latter which has a chip and will be used the same way as the card (for going through the fast-track/speed lane).

[AgnesIO]

Is the ID card really that important? It could just work off the same, successful idea as the NHS card which just logs you in and contains a quick link to your NHS data, prescriptions etc. It holds no information and requires a password I believe. If its only use is to log you in then they may aswell take this option, it seems cheaper too.

Call it a Citizens ID card or something less scary and important.

EDIT: Are we the only country considering having these? I won't say I'd use it, I have a driving license and passport for a reason - the latter which has a chip and will be used the same way as the card (for going through the fast-track/speed lane).

I assume it will be less risky to carry these than a passport or something?

In Spain, you have to have your passport with you when driving, so perhaps this would take a similar role?

[Chippiewill]

From what I understand from this highly informative article the government wants to bring in a standardised system by which everyone has a single log in for the various government websites to reduce costs? This is hardly a return to ID cards....

This is what I was thinking, quite like Undertaker to take any opportunity to take something so trivial out of proportion. I hardly think that having the same login details for multiple websites is quite the same as carrying the key to identity theft in your pocket.

[AgnesIO]

This is what I was thinking, quite like Undertaker to take any oppertunity to take something so trivial out of proportion. I hardly think that having the same login details for multiple websites is quite the same as carrying the key to identity theft in your pocket.

I realise that the governments plan is not to help us, but they want all our identities to be stolen, and to wind up certain 100% anti-three main party people. They therefore devised this plan which would successfully annoy absolutely anyone who dislikes the three main parties in the first place.

However, I think this could be quite logical in shops etc, I know that isn't the idea, but if it had your name on it, you would have to swipe your identity card to make your purchase - would make catching criminals easier as police would be able to find out exactly where they had been.

[Hecktix]

I agree that this is by far the ID card system that labour proposed (and I supported, afterall for reasons that the likes of Mathew & Robbie have said in this thread, ID cards could work quite well if introduced correctly).

However as Technologic quite rightly pointed out, this is more of a single identity on the web, for instance at the moment you have to have a different account for student finance and other areas of direct.gov.uk. However, I can only see this single account nonsense as a security flaw.

[FlyingJesus]

Dan as others have said this is clearly not the same thing as having to carry around a chipped ID card in case a passing policeman wants to check if you're an illegal immigrant lol. My bank, along with many others, has a login system whereby you are required to use your card in a special reader to get the access codes and get into online banking, which is pretty much what this looks like tbh, rather than a way for the government to steal your private details and hold records of their political enemies

[GommeInc]

I assume it will be less risky to carry these than a passport or something?

In Spain, you have to have your passport with you when driving, so perhaps this would take a similar role?
I'd say it's more risky to be carrying around something like an ID card that allows you access to Government websites and services, than a passport which only makes up part of the ID card.

[Inseriousity.]

I agree that the 3 main parties are pretty much the same (although we both know they'll never create a coalition cos thats just not how powerhungry leaders work). Despite that, I don't have much of a problem with ID cards anyway. I studied french and one of the french exchange student was amazed that we didnt have them.

I think it's a bit of a conspiracy theory that governments will be very interested in your details. They want to know what you're doing, where you're going blah blah blah. Well I feel sorry for the poor bugger who has to keep track of my life. As you say, the majority of people are law-abiding citizens. So in a country with 60 million people, why do you think they're going to have any interest in you?

[Chippiewill]

I think it's a bit of a conspiracy theory that governments will be very interested in your details. They want to know what you're doing, where you're going blah blah blah. Well I feel sorry for the poor bugger who has to keep track of my life. As you say, the majority of people are law-abiding citizens. So in a country with 60 million people, why do you think they're going to have any interest in you?

It's not like they don't have loads of your information anyway, they can track your movements with new CCTV software and since on average per day you are caught on three hundred CCTV cameras they can get a lot of information about you, eating habits, clothing interests etc.

Thing is, they don't, because they don't actually have a use for that information. The people we should be fearing are the supercorporations who we give our information too and sites like this where someone could actually just take all our passwords by saving an unencrypted copy of it everytime we log in and steal paypal accounts and the like because they'd also have our emails. Worrying about a governent who knows that you have a peanut allergy is ridiculous when google knows about 90% of the sites you go on.

[alexxxxx]

I wouldn't even say the title of this is even correct. The government isn't even building a centralised system, it seems like a card company will certify that it is you when then the government website asks it.

And gommeinc, have you never applied for a student loan or applied for a provisional driver's licence?

back to the ID debate, i think that there are arguments for and against.

[GommeInc]

And gommeinc, have you never applied for a student loan or applied for a provisional driver's licence?
Never had a student loan or applied for one, and I cannot remember what I did for my provisional license :P I can't see how the card would be needed for this other than for an ID code which can be hammered in each time.

It depends if all of your accounts and access to the Government websites and schemes merged into one is safe, reliable and worth the cost. The card in my opinion is useless, but merging all the accounts and allowing a single way to access all of the services seems like a good idea though. I don't see the point in the card just for a picture and a chip, both of which exist in two forms (passport and driver's license).

All I know is that the idea is a little bit better than the Labour version which wanted everything attached to the card and just screamed "waste of tax payer's money". This is just borderline.

[alexxxxx]

Never had a student loan or applied for one, and I cannot remember what I did for my provisional license :P I can't see how the card would be needed for this other than for an ID code which can be hammered in each time.

It depends if all of your accounts and access to the Government websites and schemes merged into one is safe, reliable and worth the cost. The card in my opinion is useless, but merging all the accounts and allowing a single way to access all of the services seems like a good idea though. I don't see the point in the card just for a picture and a chip, both of which exist in two forms (passport and driver's license).

All I know is that the idea is a little bit better than the Labour version which wanted everything attached to the card and just screamed "waste of tax payer's money". This is just borderline.

No, read the article. It never says they want to start up dishing people out cards, it says that the card companies 'who have already verified the identities' can certify that they are who they say they are. So you could log into the government system with your NatWest account, for instance.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Dan as others have said this is clearly not the same thing as having to carry around a chipped ID card in case a passing policeman wants to check if you're an illegal immigrant lol. My bank, along with many others, has a login system whereby you are required to use your card in a special reader to get the access codes and get into online banking, which is pretty much what this looks like tbh, rather than a way for the government to steal your private details and hold records of their political enemies

The article states it is not the exact same thing, the worry is that they are introducing it via the backdoor as they always do with almost everything. The government preaches about civil liberties and how nasty Labour took them away from us (granted which it did, faced with a useless opposition) but the coalition is doing exactly the same behind closed doors. I'm just exposing them for their hypocrisy, and the idea that big government is on the way out is total nonsense and its time Conservatives and Liberal Democrats stop saying so.


I like the idea of ID cards because it stops, or helps prevent, illegal immigration. However I don't like it because I won't be able to get beer by claiming I'm 18 when I'm 16 with a car >_> (Blue Badge ftw).

But yeah I think in general it is a good idea, but if they thought it was a good idea they shouldn't have scrapped it because it just makes them look hypocritical now.

Does it? I thought good border controls stopped illegal immigration, and we fly with passports to prove who we are don't we? ..and there's nothing you can do about uncontrolled immigration anyway when you are part of the EU.

The next thing i'll be reading is that it stops terrorism.


I've always been a fan of ID Cards to be honest. It reminds me if when we go on a cruise and everyone is given their room key on a little card with their name, DOB, etc; you can also pay for stuff on it at the bars and shops which is brilliant. :P

I think ID Cards are a good way to know exactly who is who and I think it can only be beneficial.

Why do I need to prove who I am? and to who and for what reason? i'm an innocent subject, i'm not a criminal nor have I been convicted of any criminality and besides, I already have a passport, a birth certificate and a NI card therefore I can prove who I am to you any time I wish.

So wheres the benefit in the government having my fingerprints/eye scans?


If this was done the right way, then they'd have a biometric chip on them which, upon swiping, it would give photographs of the pupil and fingerprint. It would make border control in countries such as the United States much easier because all you'd need to do is swipe your card. It's like carrying a mini-passport and I think it has potential.

Why not chip new borns aswell? it'll make us all safe, surely?


Interesting to see that they've brought it back after shooting it down though. It appears to be arguing for the sake of arguing in Parliament lately. Oh you're a Labour MP so obviously your idea if ****e, and the likes....

Not surprising that they have really is it, sometimes I forget we even had an election back last May.


From what I understand from this highly informative article the government wants to bring in a standardised system by which everyone has a single log in for the various government websites to reduce costs? This is hardly a return to ID cards....

Not to the full system no, but then we never knew properly what the plans were even when Labour were considering them. Not trusting any of them (with good reason and evidence provided on request) I view this with suspicion.


This is what I was thinking, quite like Undertaker to take any opportunity to take something so trivial out of proportion. I hardly think that having the same login details for multiple websites is quite the same as carrying the key to identity theft in your pocket.

See above.


I realise that the governments plan is not to help us, but they want all our identities to be stolen, and to wind up certain 100% anti-three main party people. They therefore devised this plan which would successfully annoy absolutely anyone who dislikes the three main parties in the first place.

Well they don't really need someone to go out of their way and steal them when government loses them itself all of the time. It is interesting you bring up, although with sarcasm, why the government feels the need to make us carry around chips, take our fingerprints (thus destroying habeus corpus) and have our eye scans - because not one of you or the government seems to have made the case for it yet.

So, naturally, because I think I wonder why this is. Do you?


However, I think this could be quite logical in shops etc, I know that isn't the idea, but if it had your name on it, you would have to swipe your identity card to make your purchase - would make catching criminals easier as police would be able to find out exactly where they had been.

If we put CCTV everywhere (maybe even including indoors) crime would also be severely reduced by logic, support that aswell? or does that sound too sinister and something that a government upto no good would do to its people?


I'd say it's more risky to be carrying around something like an ID card that allows you access to Government websites and services, than a passport which only makes up part of the ID card.

The government has a habit of losing information of both subjects and its own information, why the people in this thread trust government handling any of their details let alone more is simply beyond me.


I agree that the 3 main parties are pretty much the same (although we both know they'll never create a coalition cos thats just not how powerhungry leaders work). Despite that, I don't have much of a problem with ID cards anyway. I studied french and one of the french exchange student was amazed that we didnt have them.

I think it's a bit of a conspiracy theory that governments will be very interested in your details. They want to know what you're doing, where you're going blah blah blah. Well I feel sorry for the poor bugger who has to keep track of my life. As you say, the majority of people are law-abiding citizens. So in a country with 60 million people, why do you think they're going to have any interest in you?

A free government and a free country doesn't need ID cards, as i've said before - I can already prove who I am using offical government documents as can the rest of us. I do not see why I should be treated like a criminal, have my civil liberties trashed when the case for bringing in ID cards is non-existent.


I wouldn't even say the title of this is even correct. The government isn't even building a centralised system, it seems like a card company will certify that it is you when then the government website asks it.

And gommeinc, have you never applied for a student loan or applied for a provisional driver's licence?

back to the ID debate, i think that there are arguments for and against.

.. is this alexxxxx the libertarian speaking?

[alexxxxx]

Not to the full system no, but then we never knew properly what the plans were even when Labour were considering them. Not trusting any of them (with good reason and evidence provided on request) I view this with suspicion.


wasn't the ID card actually launched? i thought one could buy a card for about £20 if you really wanted it as it could be used as a passport to EU countries.

I can see the benefits to an ID card system in regards to benefits and the like as you could implement a strict policy of no ID = no cash/no anything but it is a bit of a joke how much they are abused. In italy for example you need to show your ID to buy football tickets and I believe that policemen can ask for ID whenever. I'm a shade against them as the tendency would be that it'd be compulsory to carry them at all times.

[-:Undertaker:-]

wasn't the ID card actually launched? i thought one could buy a card for about £20 if you really wanted it as it could be used as a passport to EU countries.

I can see the benefits to an ID card system in regards to benefits and the like as you could implement a strict policy of no ID = no cash/no anything but it is a bit of a joke how much they are abused. In italy for example you need to show your ID to buy football tickets and I believe that policemen can ask for ID whenever. I'm a shade against them as the tendency would be that it'd be compulsory to carry them at all times.

I'm not sure, I heard something about them being voluntary - and they had a low uptake (not suprising) and now they've sort of fizzled out.. for now.

[Chippiewill]

Not to the full system no, but then we never knew properly what the plans were even when Labour were considering them. Not trusting any of them (with good reason and evidence provided on request) I view this with suspicion.
Sorry, I don't quite understand. You are now accusing a political party of doing something that there is no or extremely little evidence of because you slightly distrust them? That's like accusing UKIP of being racist because they're sort of like the BNP.

[GommeInc]

Sorry, I don't quite understand. You are now accusing a political party of doing something that there is no or extremely little evidence of because you slightly distrust them? That's like accusing UKIP of being racist because they're sort of like the BNP.
To be fair, the Government should refrain from doing anything that chucks the identities and forced-trust of any of their citizens into their hands. The expenses scandal was evidence the country doesn't trust Government anymore and I think there is still a lack of trust when the Government is mentioned, particularly with last minute policy changes evident in the Lib Dems and the Tories.

[Chippiewill]

To be fair, the Government should refrain from doing anything that chucks the identities and forced-trust of any of their citizens into their hands. The expenses scandal was evidence the country doesn't trust Government anymore and I think there is still a lack of trust when the Government is mentioned, particularly with last minute policy changes evident in the Lib Dems and the Tories.

But this doesn't involve trusting them any-more than we already do, all they're doing is tying all the internet accounts together.

[GommeInc]

But this doesn't involve trusting them any-more than we already do, all they're doing is tying all the internet accounts together.
Is it necessary? You could say that the ID card is a waste of resources when they could easily just give you a name, number and passcode. The card part is useless :P Security is another issue someone brought up.

[alexxxxx]

Is it necessary? You could say that the ID card is a waste of resources when they could easily just give you a name, number and passcode. The card part is useless :P Security is another issue someone brought up.

there is no plan for a 'card.' The card shown is the old, short-lived identity card to try and make you think that this is somehow related to that.

it'd be great if people actually read these stories before passing judgement.

[-:Undertaker:-]

there is no plan for a 'card.' The card shown is the old, short-lived identity card to try and make you think that this is somehow related to that.

it'd be great if people actually read these stories before passing judgement.

I don't believe anyone or the paper has said the actual type of ID card that Labour proposed (and earlier on Michael Howard of the Conservatives) is returning, simply that a new national ID card type system is being implemented by a government which one of the only differences it promised between itself and the previous government was over the issue of ID cards and the big state. The worry is, especially with their strange silence over the issue, that it [this prototype] will simply morph before long to cover the entire population - all three of them as i've pointed out have their fingers in this pie.

It would be wise to follow your own advice!

[Recursion]

Are they going to make us pay for them (obviously indirectly through tax but otherwise...)? Labour was going to force everyone to literally buy them.

[alexxxxx]

I don't believe anyone or the paper has said the actual type of ID card that Labour proposed (and earlier on Michael Howard of the Conservatives) is returning, simply that a new national ID card type system is being implemented by a government which one of the only differences it promised between itself and the previous government was over the issue of ID cards and the big state. The worry is, especially with their strange silence over the issue, that it [this prototype] will simply morph before long to cover the entire population - all three of them as i've pointed out have their fingers in this pie.

It would be wise to follow your own advice!

No, you read the article. It doesn't say the government will issue ID cards, has plans to issue ID cards or anything in the sort. It says there will be an 'identity assurance' given to the government websites by a 3rd party! It says VISA have conducted trials with people logging in with their credit cards - not exactly the same thing as an ID card.

The real questions with this story is that:

1) do you trust private companies to interact with the government without over-charging
2) is the data protected from the government so they can not have 'access'
3) will the data be secure
4) will the system be more or less fraud-resistant.
5) the scope of the project (how many 'government websites' will it spread to? HMRC/NHS/DirectGov/Student Finance?)

[Chippiewill]

I don't believe anyone or the paper has said the actual type of ID card that Labour proposed (and earlier on Michael Howard of the Conservatives) is returning, simply that a new national ID card type system is being implemented by a government which one of the only differences it promised between itself and the previous government was over the issue of ID cards and the big state. The worry is, especially with their strange silence over the issue, that it [this prototype] will simply morph before long to cover the entire population - all three of them as i've pointed out have their fingers in this pie.

It would be wise to follow your own advice!

Again, stop twisting what the article said. There has been no mention of ANY ID CARD, only that you'll be able to log onto government websites with your Visa card (Why you'd want to do that is beyond me) this is in no way anything like what Labour were doing ore anything like what you're implying. The reason why there's a silence over this issue is because this issue doesn't actually exist.


1) do you trust private companies to interact with the government without over-charging
2) is the data protected from the government so they can not have 'access'
3) will the data be secure
4) will the system be more or less fraud-resistant.
5) the scope of the project (how many 'government websites' will it spread to? HMRC/NHS/DirectGov/Student Finance?)

This is a man asking the right questions. Since VISA is backing this most likely this system will be airtight (Unlike Sony's...), and since the data contained will be so sensitive (Although just as sensitive as it was before, just in one place) I would expect they'd hire someone with half a brain and use some strong AES encryption on all he data.. Hopefully it'll be all the government websites, otherwise it's a bit like having a different login for all the different google services or similar.

[Recursion]

Again, stop twisting what the article said. There has been no mention of ANY ID CARD, only that you'll be able to log onto government websites with your Visa card (Why you'd want to do that is beyond me) this is in no way anything like what Labour were doing ore anything like what you're implying. The reason why there's a silence over this issue is because this issue doesn't actually exist.

This is a man asking the right questions. Since VISA is backing this most likely this system will be airtight (Unlike Sony's...), and since the data contained will be so sensitive (Although just as sensitive as it was before, just in one place) I would expect they'd hire someone with half a brain and use some strong AES encryption on all he data.. Hopefully it'll be all the government websites, otherwise it's a bit like having a different login for all the different google services or similar.

Any system is open to flaws somewhere, we're human, we cannot make a 'perfect' system. Banks constantly have issues with these things but they're so big they manage to keep them quiet and deal with them quickly and quietly.

[Chippiewill]

Any system is open to flaws somewhere, we're human, we cannot make a 'perfect' system. Banks constantly have issues with these things but they're so big they manage to keep them quiet and deal with them quickly and quietly.

I didn't say they weren't susceptible but unlike in a lot of systems security will be considered at every step.

[gangster4cool]

Its All Just WIERD......