Mass Tory rebellion erupts as MPs FINALLY stand up for the people, well, some of them

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2052356/This-isnt---X---sixth-form-debate-Chief-Whip-accused-bully-boy-bid-kill-EU-vote.html

'This isn't a #@!#X*!# sixth form debate: Chief Whip accused of 'bully boy' bid to kill off EU vote


http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/jul2011/8/0/david-cameron-ed-miliband-and-nick-clgg-pi-441421959.jpg
Three headed monster: Cameron, Miliband and Clegg have installed three-line party whips to deny the British people a say on our membership of the European Union. However, around 60+ Conservative MPs and some Labour MPs are going to rebel and serve the people before party.


Allegations of ‘bully-boy’ tactics were made against Tory Chief Whip Patrick McLoughlin yesterday as the Government fought to kill off a Commons bid to win a referendum on the EU. Amid reports that up to 100 rebel Conservative MPs may defy the Prime Minister, there were claims that some had been subjected to a number of threats by Mr McLoughlin to make them toe the line. According to one MP, ex-miner Mr McLoughlin was overheard shouting at a rebel MP: ‘This is not the f****** Oxford Union. This is not some f****** sixth-form debating society. This is the bloody House of Commons.’

Other threats allegedly included:

- Banning MPs having extra time off at Christmas.
- Giving their seat to a rival MP.
- A four-year veto on becoming a Minister.

The alleged threats were revealed as David Cameron faced his most serious Commons revolt since winning the Election. He is expected to win tomorrow’s Commons vote on whether to let the public decide on staying in the EU. But he may pay a heavy price. Tory MPs say that ‘heavy-handed’ tactics used by the Government to avoid a defeat have backfired. They claim Mr Cameron could have given them a free vote instead of imposing a severe three-line whip because the result is not binding.

According to one MP, Tory Whips threatened to cancel extra time off at Christmas for MPs who have booked holidays before the Commons breaks up on December 20. One backbencher said MPs whose seats are to be scrapped in a shake-up of Parliamentary boundaries have been told that they will get no Government support to find a new one if they vote for a referendum. Several would-be rebel Tories were summoned to see Mr McLoughlin in his Commons’ office last week. Others were called for meetings with Mr Cameron. One Tory said: ‘The Whips are hitting the phones over the weekend but the real arm-twisting comes tomorrow. They are using the classic tactic of picking off the weaker waverers or the ones angling to be bought off with some promise of a future job.’

Stewart Jackson, Parliamentary Private Secretary to Eurosceptic Ulster Secretary Owen Paterson, last night reaffirmed that he will put his principles above his career and vote for a referendum. Mr Jackson, who is ready to resign over the issue, said: ‘Keeping faith with your constituents and keeping their trust is more important than party preferment and jobs in government.’

Another PPS, who asked not to be named, hit out at ‘school prefect bully-boy tactics’ used by Whips.

Labour leader Ed Miliband faced growing troubles with his own backbenchers, when Derbyshire MP Natascha Engel said she would vote for a referendum. Last night Mr McLoughlin denied swearing at a rebel MP, adding: ‘I am not making threats to anyone.’



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghcXKeP4uLo

I was most impressed on the news tonight of Kate Hoey (Labour MP) and David Davis (Conservative MP) putting what the people who elect them want before what the party they belong to wants, even if it means throwing a potential career in senior government down the drain. This is what politics is supposed to be about, principles and standing up for what the people want - something that the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats (the majority) ignore.

Miliband and Cameron have installed three-line whips against a vote and the Liberal Democrats are against the referendum also, despite having pledged during the last election to support an in/out referendum. Interestingly enough, at the time Liberal Democrat supporters on here asked why I wasn't supporting the Liberal Democrats rather than UKIP as they were a bigger party and promised the same - I correctly said they would never give us a say, I stand correct.

The issue of the EU will never go away, it will only grow stronger - 'ever closer union' is the stated aim and it will continue to occur, its satisfying to know however that at least a small proportion of MPs in both Labour and Conservative still have some backbone.

Thoughts, should MPs give us a say on our membership of the EU?

[Chippiewill]

Under what logic shouldn't we have say on membership of the EU?

The real concern is that MPs are being punished for something so widely supported just because the party heads like those people in Brussels who keep beating us up and taking our money.

[Caution]

Even though the majority will vote against it, it'll be quite interesting to see what happens (if anything happens) to the MPs that vote for it, and if they do actually go through with voting for it or if it's all just talk. It's absolutely shocking that every single MP won't vote for the referendum that the majority of their constituents want and I don't understand how they don't feel that their postion as MP is being devalued when they vote against it and give even more powers to Brussels.

[Chippiewill]

It's absolutely shocking that every single MP won't vote for the referendum that the majority of their constituents want
Because otherwise it defeats the point of being in a party, no point being in labour if you support the conservatives all the time.

I'd rather abolish parties, stick all MPs on an equal field and have the prime minister elected separately. That way they can vote for what they believe is right.

[Caution]

Because otherwise it defeats the point of being in a party, no point being in labour if you support the conservatives all the time.The referendum issue isn't something that concerns only one party though, it's people from all parties that want a referendum. An MP should look at the polls, see that more than half are in favour of a referendum and use the power that the people have given them to vote for what the people want.

[-:Undertaker:-]

From the website of David Cameron "David Cameron's philosophy has always been making sure people are in control and that politicians are their servants, not their masters."

[Chippiewill]

From the website of David Cameron "David Cameron's philosophy has always been making sure people are in control and that politicians are their servants, not their masters."
One of his assistants must have gotten confused when typing that up then huh? Should be more like:

"David Cameron's philosophy has always been making sure people are under control and that politicians are their masters, not their servants."

[Hecktix]

MPs have voted against holding a referendum on EU membership, 483 votes to 111.

More than 70 of the rebels were Conservative, ignoring David Cameron's pleas to vote against this motion.

Thoughts?


Edited by Catzsy (Forum Super Moderator): Thread merged as same topic already posted

[Mathew]

Interesting. Open bets on the extent to which Undertaker continues complaining!!

[Chippiewill]

320% Increase, if it can actually increase.

Damn shame they don't think such a serious issue needs a referendum. We can vote on AV but not EU?

Seriously, wtf?

[Hayleigh]

i thought you'd left...forever?

Edited by Infectious (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not make off topic posts!

[Hecktix]

320% Increase, if it can actually increase.

Damn shame they don't think such a serious issue needs a referendum. We can vote on AV but not EU?

Seriously, wtf?

I know, my view is quite simple on this: All major parties offered at least a referendum on membership of the EU in their election campaigns or prior to the election in 2010. Therefore there should be a referendum. This country is supposed to be a democracy but how is it democratic if the elected members of parliament can't fulfil promises? I can only credit the 80 or so Conservative rebels.

Although on the matter of AV, let's remember that was just an easy way to keep the Lib Dems happy, and I ask anybody who plans to continue voting Lib Dem to consider doing so, after all they traded in their Education policies for a voting referendum that got them nowhere.

I don't personally care about the EU issue, I'm neutral on the matter nowadays.

[Inseriousity.]

Fine to get rid of dictators in one country but okay to have whips trying to force MPs into voting the way they want rather than what their constituents want! Glad some still have principle although it's nothing new really, there are rebel MPs everywhere (tuition fees increase, for example). We need a new party. Unfortunately I'm not right wing enough to vote UKIP :(

[Technologic]

Done and dusted, can we deal with some real issues please?

[AgnesIO]

Interesting. Open bets on the extent to which Undertaker continues complaining!!

What are the odds? 1/10000?

It didn't take a genius to see it was never going to be passed, when all three main parties don't want it..

[-:Undertaker:-]

A three-line whip from Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the 'eurosceptic' Tories - if this doesn't tell you something I don't know what will. The three main parties won't give you a vote because they think they know better than you, the silly little people who do not punish them for their continued lies. Not to mention the fact a great deal of them are vouching for EU jobs when they are finished in British politics.

A great well done though to the few Labour and Conservative MPs who did stick up for the electorate tonight.


Done and dusted, can we deal with some real issues please?

Like the economy, immigration, the bailouts, taxation, business regulation, general regulation, agriculture, industry, human rights, the courts system, foreign policy and more?......... we can't deal with any of them until we leave the European Union. Now what I want to ask you personally is, since i've shown this time and time again to you and many others with evidence;

*Removed*


Edited by Catzsy (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not be rude to others.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Great speech by Farage outside parliament to the protest;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEQooIx3Cjg&feature=player_embedded#!

[GommeInc]

It was never going to pass, we're not a democracy anymore :P MPs revealed they are forced to share just one view which is why the rebels existed in the first place. All three parties said they would argue over the EU and hold a referendum yet none of them did. It's completely unsurprising.

[Catzsy]

It was never going to pass, we're not a democracy anymore :P MPs revealed they are forced to share just one view which is why the rebels existed in the first place. All three parties said they would argue over the EU and hold a referendum yet none of them did. It's completely unsurprising.

Good for them though and the ones who resigned their PPS posts to do it. I agree it was never going to pass but the sheer number of them doing it with have some lasting effects I believe on the party itself. They seem to have found some teeth. The weird thing was that Cameron said he agreed with them but it was the wrong time. When is the right time? I do feel that a referendum is something that the people of this country do want and that they should be given that opportunity.

[AgnesIO]

It was never going to pass, we're not a democracy anymore :P MPs revealed they are forced to share just one view which is why the rebels existed in the first place. All three parties said they would argue over the EU and hold a referendum yet none of them did. It's completely unsurprising.

Would Direct Democracy REALLY make us that much more democratic?

After all, we do vote for the MP's to make the decisions for us..

[-:Undertaker:-]

Would Direct Democracy REALLY make us that much more democratic?

After all, we do vote for the MP's to make the decisions for us..

Yes it would, thats how Switzerland has managed to remain independent despite its political class wanting to join.

But the idea that we vote for MPs to make decisions for us, do we really? or do we vote on tribal lines?

[AgnesIO]

Yes it would, thats how Switzerland has managed to remain independent despite its political class wanting to join.

But the idea that we vote for MPs to make decisions for us, do we really? or do we vote on tribal lines?

As if an educated man like yourself has used the Swiss as an example when it comes to direct democracy. Are you aware of the crazy things they have been known to have your beloved referendums on?

---

You are arguing a different point here, Dan. We are supposed to vote for MP's that we want to make decisions and represent our opinions in parliament. Whether we vote for that reason or because we want to vote Labour, Cons, Lib Dem or any other party is a different argument. The idea is that you vote for the MP you think will do the best job at representing our opinions in parliament.

[Ajthedragon]

Don't blame the majority for voting against it really. Although I applaud those who did rebel.

However we're part of the EU problem as well, with our massive deficit and our involvement with Greece, reliance on other European countries for trade. That doesn't stop with ceased membership of the EU.

Frankly I'm all for EU being replaced with a trading bloc, however until such a deal is in place I would fail to support such a motion, I feel the EU is too important to UK exports and services.

Plus the Lib Dem's pretty much guaranteed that we were never going to get a referendum on the matter anyway.

And on the subject of direct democracy, it's just too expensive and long-winded, and frankly given the small-minded people of this country would fall flat on it's face.

[AgnesIO]

Don't blame the majority for voting against it really. Although I applaud those who did rebel.

However we're part of the EU problem as well, with our massive deficit and our involvement with Greece, reliance on other European countries for trade. That doesn't stop with ceased membership of the EU.

Frankly I'm all for EU being replaced with a trading bloc, however until such a deal is in place I would fail to support such a motion, I feel the EU is too important to UK exports and services.

Plus the Lib Dem's pretty much guaranteed that we were never going to get a referendum on the matter anyway.

And on the subject of direct democracy, it's just too expensive and long-winded, and frankly given the small-minded people of this country would fall flat on it's face.

And our civil rights go when membership with the EU goes..

[GommeInc]

Good for them though and the ones who resigned their PPS posts to do it. I agree it was never going to pass but the sheer number of them doing it with have some lasting effects I believe on the party itself. They seem to have found some teeth. The weird thing was that Cameron said he agreed with them but it was the wrong time. When is the right time? I do feel that a referendum is something that the people of this country do want and that they should be given that opportunity.
Indeed it was good of them to stand their ground, but it does make you question the underlying controversy of how many people felt they best be quiet and stay in line - were the number of yes/no/maybe votes accurate to the nubmer of people who felt the need vote to the people who were forced to follow? I think the right time passed long ago, possibly back in the 1980s or whenever the EU came into existence. What the country joined up to doesn't necessarily exist anymore (ECC?), and when things began to change would of been the best time so we can re-think the existence of such a Union.

I can see the arguments of why we shouldn't debate it as it's too late and could do more damage than good in such a globalised community where they are our closest allies and what affects them unfortunately affects us. But as you say, you feel the country should be given a referendum and I personally believe people are entitled to one - the changes do not need to be immediate, but if people do vote then the change should be done within a sensible time limit - but we know that isn't going to be possible.


Would Direct Democracy REALLY make us that much more democratic?

After all, we do vote for the MP's to make the decisions for us..
An interesting question :P In some ways it's unrealistic but a compromise should be made. At the moment the political class like to say no but give very little explanation as to why it was a no. MPs are not social scientists and are about as dumb, if not dumber than the people they're meant to serve. Their constituents can find the answers for themselves and if the reasons make no sense then they too should question their own opinions and ask themselves if their thoughts and beliefs really reflect those of the nation.

[-:Undertaker:-]

As if an educated man like yourself has used the Swiss as an example when it comes to direct democracy. Are you aware of the crazy things they have been known to have your beloved referendums on?

What, like we had one on the AV system which is more or less the same as FPTP? I think it was a stupid referendum and didn't mean anything so I didn't vote in it - but at the end of the day the Swiss people are outside of the EU and have immense power over their political class which we have not got.

We would no doubt have some 'crazy' referendums, but mostly sensible ones on our membership of the European Union, the death penalty, corporal punishment.. a whole range of issues from both sides where it wouldn't matter what party political tribe you belonged to/how many whips are deployed; the people would hold large swathes of power.


You are arguing a different point here, Dan. We are supposed to vote for MP's that we want to make decisions and represent our opinions in parliament. Whether we vote for that reason or because we want to vote Labour, Cons, Lib Dem or any other party is a different argument. The idea is that you vote for the MP you think will do the best job at representing our opinions in parliament.

Indeed, thats the idea.


Don't blame the majority for voting against it really. Although I applaud those who did rebel.

However we're part of the EU problem as well, with our massive deficit and our involvement with Greece, reliance on other European countries for trade. That doesn't stop with ceased membership of the EU.

Frankly I'm all for EU being replaced with a trading bloc, however until such a deal is in place I would fail to support such a motion, I feel the EU is too important to UK exports and services.

Plus the Lib Dem's pretty much guaranteed that we were never going to get a referendum on the matter anyway.

And on the subject of direct democracy, it's just too expensive and long-winded, and frankly given the small-minded people of this country would fall flat on it's face.

Can I just say on the trading issues, the EU needs us more than we need it in terms of trade (we run a trade deficit with the European Union so we are more important in terms of trade to them than we are to it) so this would not happen. The second reason that tariffs wouldn't be put up is that both the United Kingdom and the European Union would be/are members of the World Trade Organisation.

I would leave the WTO as I don't agree that free trade/trade blocs can be considered free trade, however that is how the matter stands. Therefore, the idea that leaving the EU means ending trade is complete rubbish.


And our civil rights go when membership with the EU goes..

Our civil rights come from old English law which the EU and European courts actually work against, see the EAW (European Arrest Warrant) which allows for you to be carted off to another part of Europe and not be charged for up to 18 months in some cases. If you wish to discuss this further then i'd be most glad to.

Our liberty comes from our constitution, not foreign courts.

[AgnesIO]

What, like we had one on the AV system which is more or less the same as FPTP? I think it was a stupid referendum and didn't mean anything so I didn't vote in it - but at the end of the day the Swiss people are outside of the EU and have immense power over their political class which we have not got.

We would no doubt have some 'crazy' referendums, but mostly sensible ones on our membership of the European Union, the death penalty, corporal punishment.. a whole range of issues from both sides where it wouldn't matter what party political tribe you belonged to/how many whips are deployed; the people would hold large swathes of power.



Indeed, thats the idea.



Can I just say on the trading issues, the EU needs us more than we need it in terms of trade (we run a trade deficit with the European Union so we are more important in terms of trade to them than we are to it) so this would not happen. The second reason that tariffs wouldn't be put up is that both the United Kingdom and the European Union would be/are members of the World Trade Organisation.

I would leave the WTO as I don't agree that free trade/trade blocs can be considered free trade, however that is how the matter stands. Therefore, the idea that leaving the EU means ending trade is complete rubbish.



Our civil rights come from old English law which the EU and European courts actually work against, see the EAW (European Arrest Warrant) which allows for you to be carted off to another part of Europe and not be charged for up to 18 months in some cases. If you wish to discuss this further then i'd be most glad to.

Our liberty comes from our constitution, not foreign courts.

We have a lack of many things outside the EU, due to all the written down stuff being part of the EU.

You rely far too much on the referendum system, Dan. The thing is, how can you justify allowing the people to decide on the death penalty, corporal punishment etc and then say it is not right for them to have a vote on something else? That is when you become like the Swiss.

[-:Undertaker:-]

We have a lack of many things outside the EU, due to all the written down stuff being part of the EU.

Our liberties do not come from the European Union, I say again - the EU does not gurantee personal freedoms at all, rather it threatens them. In the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth we have a unique system of common law called habeas corpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus). The European Union and the continent do not have this system, they have a system of corpus juris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Juris). A quick read of these and you will see the threat posed to us as individuals by the European Union and its imposition of corpus juris on this country. Our rights come from our consitution; the Magna Carta, habeas corpus, the Bill of Rights and the Act of Union - they do not come from the imposition of corpus juris and the EAW by foreign courts.

Now, is that now clear enough to see that the EU does not protect civil liberties, rather is endangers them?


You rely far too much on the referendum system, Dan. The thing is, how can you justify allowing the people to decide on the death penalty, corporal punishment etc and then say it is not right for them to have a vote on something else? That is when you become like the Swiss.

I'd like to reinstate all of these things straight away, however I know, that in order not to act like those who took these things away from us without our approval, that a referendum should be held. If a few silly referendums arise out of this, then so what? who cares? just vote against the proposed motion. It really is that simply, using your head and saying no or yes. You do not need government to tell you how to think.

If your reasoning behind this is that you mightn't like the outcomes of the referenda, why not just end elections at the same time?