Lets play them at their own game

[-:Undertaker:-]

Play them at their own Game

Following the three main parties, the Conservatives, the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats showing contempt for democracy and the will of the people (with the exceptions of the 111 fair and patriotic MPs of all three parties including those from Northern Ireland), maybe its time to try again until they [the political class] get the message.

A new petition has been started on the HM Government e-petitions website stating that, following the dismal response from parliament, they need to try again to respect the wishes of the people - just ask Ireland, France and the Netherlands! I'd urge all on here to sign so that we get the referendum on who runs this country.


If you can’t beat them then join them. Old Holborn suggests that the Europhiles should be played at their own game; keep asking them the same question until you get the answer that you want. Guido is inclined to agree:

http://orderorder.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/hmg.jpg?w=478&h=250 (https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20133)

This tactic, however fruitless when faced with a careerist political class, is what the European Union does when it doesn't get the 'right' answer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsVZ4VepQdg). The key difference being that this is what the people want, not what the politicians want. This will not rest.

Click to sign here (https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20133).

Thoughts?

[.Tom.]

I totally agree a referendum on our participation in the EU should be called, it is clearly what the people want

However, my only issue with this is that a large part of our population do not truly understand the changes that would take place if we did indeed remove ourselves from the EU

It effects so many different aspects of our lives, I think if we did pull out, there would be an uproar from the people who simply voted with the 'Britain is Best' mindset, when they truly realise that the EU has provided some great positives to our lives, as well as the negatives.

[Chippiewill]

Just signed this, a very important issues that should not have been dismissed with such ease. It is a farce that the government are not respecting the system that allows for a far more direct democracy.

[jam666]

Greece now gets a referendum, where the hell is ours?. They may be a select few but a big thank you to the 111 patriots who voted FOR a referendum.

[GommeInc]

Greece now gets a referendum, where the hell is ours?. They may be a select few but a big thank you to the 111 patriots who voted FOR a referendum.
Not every day you can say Greece is more of a democracy than the UK :P

[AgnesIO]

I totally agree a referendum on our participation in the EU should be called, it is clearly what the people want

However, my only issue with this is that a large part of our population do not truly understand the changes that would take place if we did indeed remove ourselves from the EU

It effects so many different aspects of our lives, I think if we did pull out, there would be an uproar from the people who simply voted with the 'Britain is Best' mindset, when they truly realise that the EU has provided some great positives to our lives, as well as the negatives.

The problem is the people don't understand the matter. There are many advantages to the EU, but some people refuse to look at those.

[AgnesIO]

Greece now gets a referendum, where the hell is ours?. They may be a select few but a big thank you to the 111 patriots who voted FOR a referendum.

And the Greek referendum is the most stupid decision made by a politician in a long time. If the Greeks vote against it, they could cause a global economic crisis. That would be a perfect example of a referendum that was a bad idea.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The problem is the people don't understand the matter. There are many advantages to the EU, but some people refuse to look at those.

What are these advantages, and secondly if you consider them advantages ask yourself whether or not these advantages could be made on a national level/treaty level in order to suit each individual sovereign state better than pan-legislation?

From studying the topic I have found no advantages to our membership which could not be implemented by our parliament/an agreement.


And the Greek referendum is the most stupid decision made by a politician in a long time. If the Greeks vote against it, they could cause a global economic crisis. That would be a perfect example of a referendum that was a bad idea.

Without the Euro this crisis would not have reached the levels it has done. These nations are broke, they are going to default no matter what the EU and national government say, and they will have to exit the Euro at some point.

Allow the people to decide, rather than unelected EU commissioners.

[AgnesIO]

What are these advantages, and secondly if you consider them advantages ask yourself whether or not these advantages could be made on a national level/treaty level in order to suit each individual sovereign state better than pan-legislation?

From studying the topic I have found no advantages to our membership which could not be implemented by our parliament/an agreement.



Without the Euro this crisis would not have reached the levels it has done. These nations are broke, they are going to default no matter what the EU and national government say, and they will have to exit the Euro at some point.

Allow the people to decide, rather than unelected EU commissioners.

That is so hypocritical! Don't allow the unelected EU commissioners decide, but let the unelected people (who will have far less knowledge than the unelected EU commissioners) decide. Yeah right.

And, obviously if you worked out agreements then we would be fine - but the fact is we wouldn't just be able to walk out, and then get every agreement we like, Dan - whatever that ****** of a man Nigel says, or what you say - sorry, but it is true.

Firstly, being part of the EU means the 27 countries inside it can come together in decisions, such as imports and exports which mean we are very powerful - which without the EU we would not be quite as powerful - it is common knowledge you will be heard more if there are more of you - or two is better than one.

Also, being part of the EU means we can easily trade with other countries inside it - and again, yeah an agreement would enable us to do this too. But it doesn't take a scientist to work out that countries are not just going to let leave their Union and get still get all the benefits. An example of a problem that could arise..; lets use chocolate. The UK has turned in to the biggest chocolate manufacturer in the world. However, the UK then decides to leave the EU - which the EU are obviously not happy about, as they have now lost money and an extra bit of power. So, the EU decides it will tax us on any Chocolate imported in to the EU from the UK - - and the tax is very, very high - so no one bothers to buy the chocolate in Europe anymore. BANG, the UK industry has just lost half a billion consumers in an instant - and half a billion of the most wealthy consumers in the world.

I have also studied the topic - and unlike some, I actually look at both advantages and disadvantages of it - rather than being completely against it or completely for it (heh, lets be honest, that is how parties such as the BNP come around..) Pretending the EU has no advantages whatsoever shows your lack of knowledge, not vast amounts of knowledge.

[-:Undertaker:-]

That is so hypocritical! Don't allow the unelected EU commissioners decide, but let the unelected people (who will have far less knowledge than the unelected EU commissioners) decide. Yeah right.

Then you need to find out what democracy means, the people decide how the country is run - not foreign unelected EU diplomats, not the IMF or the World Bank. As for knowledge, turns out the people have been CORRECT haven't they? along with 'that ****** of a man' Nigel Farage.

The game is up, everything you EU supporters have said has turned to mush and you still defend it as it collapses around our heads.


And, obviously if you worked out agreements then we would be fine - but the fact is we wouldn't just be able to walk out, and then get every agreement we like, Dan - whatever that ****** of a man Nigel says, or what you say - sorry, but it is true.

Yes we could, we simply repeal the 1973 EEC Act.

Parliament remains sovereign in theory, its as simple as that just as Iceland did the same when it left.


Firstly, being part of the EU means the 27 countries inside it can come together in decisions, such as imports and exports which mean we are very powerful - which without the EU we would not be quite as powerful - it is common knowledge you will be heard more if there are more of you - or two is better than one.

You have no idea of this project then, you are talking there about co-operation - I would be for such a body. The European Union works on the premise that nation states are overruled by the Commission. That is not working together, that is being told what to do.

Please read about the ECJ and the Commission which is the motor for implementing EU Law and then tell me its about 'working together'.


Also, being part of the EU means we can easily trade with other countries inside it - and again, yeah an agreement would enable us to do this too. But it doesn't take a scientist to work out that countries are not just going to let leave their Union and get still get all the benefits. An example of a problem that could arise..; lets use chocolate. The UK has turned in to the biggest chocolate manufacturer in the world. However, the UK then decides to leave the EU - which the EU are obviously not happy about, as they have now lost money and an extra bit of power. So, the EU decides it will tax us on any Chocolate imported in to the EU from the UK - - and the tax is very, very high - so no one bothers to buy the chocolate in Europe anymore. BANG, the UK industry has just lost half a billion consumers in an instant - and half a billion of the most wealthy consumers in the world.

Wrong, please read about the World Trade Organisation (WTO) which prohibits this.

As for simply leaving, yes we can - Norway, Mexico, Switzerland and around 40 other countries have signed trade agreements with the EU.


I have also studied the topic - and unlike some, I actually look at both advantages and disadvantages of it - rather than being completely against it or completely for it (heh, lets be honest, that is how parties such as the BNP come around..) Pretending the EU has no advantages whatsoever shows your lack of knowledge, not vast amounts of knowledge.

I look forward to your replies, because of the 'advantages' you have raised - they are simply hot air and/or are false.

[AgnesIO]

Then you need to find out what democracy means, the people decide how the country is run - not foreign unelected EU diplomats, not the IMF or the World Bank. As for knowledge, turns out the people have been CORRECT haven't they? along with 'that ****** of a man' Nigel Farage.

The game is up, everything you EU supporters have said has turned to mush.



Yes we could, we simply repeal the 1972 EEC Act.

Parliament remains sovereign in theory, its as simple as that.



You have no idea of this project then, you are talking there about co-operation - I would be for such a body. The European Union works on the premise that nation states are overruled by the Commission. That is not working together, that is being told what to do.

Please read about the ECJ and the Commission which is the motor for implementing EU Law and then tell me its about 'working together'.



Wrong, please read about the World Trade Organisation (WTO) which prohibits this.

As for simply leaving, yes we can - Norway, Mexico, Switzerland and around 40 other countries have signed trade agreements with the EU.



I look forward to your replies, because of the 'advantages' you have raised - they are simply hot air and/or are false.

I don't have time to reply in full yet, but will later..

But I will say that technically a democracy is where "the people choose who govern them". Are you also completely against the monarch? I am not a totally EU supporter, but as stated I actually look at both sides of the argument, Dan.

Oh and very nice edit, Dan. Don't try and make me out as a liar, yeah?

[-:Undertaker:-]

I don't have time to reply in full yet, but will later..

Looking forward to it.


But I will say that technically a democracy is where "the people choose who govern them". Are you also completely against the monarch? I am not a totally EU supporter, but as stated I actually look at both sides of the argument, Dan.

And the people should have the referendum on the EU, as they govern us without being elected or ever being consented to. As for the Monarchy, no because the Monarch does not create the bulk of our laws whereas the European Union does. I can and do support the Monarchy on that basis.

You mistake pro-independence arguments as wanting to pull the drawbridge down, thats wrong. We want to trade, we want to co-operate; nobody on my side of the argument or myself has ever suggested we stop talking to our neighbours or stop trading with them.


Oh and very nice edit, Dan. Don't try and make me out as a liar, yeah?

What edit? I just changed the ending of my response as I thought it sounded rather harsh.

[AgnesIO]

Looking forward to it.



And the people should have the referendum on the EU, as they govern us without being elected or ever being consented to. As for the Monarchy, no because the Monarch does not create the bulk of our laws whereas the European Union does. I can and do support the Monarchy on that basis.

You mistake pro-independence arguments as wanting to pull the drawbridge down, thats wrong. We want to trade, we want to co-operate; nobody on my side of the argument or myself has ever suggested we stop talking to our neighbours or stop trading with them.



What edit? I just changed the ending of my response as I thought it sounded rather harsh.

Yeah that edit, Dan. It sounded like you were questioning my legitimacy. Don't.

Also, that is stupid. The Monarchy is unelected, and in a position of power - how much power they realistically have now is not the point.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yeah that edit, Dan. It sounded like you were questioning my legitimacy. Don't.

Then you shouldn't raise points in a debate which, with a little bit of research, are to be found to be untrue.

But you can address these points in your reply later i'm sure.


Also, that is stupid. The Monarchy is unelected, and in a position of power - how much power they realistically have now is not the point.

It is the point because if that time ever arised then I would either vote for an abolition or a reversal to the status quo. Instead of picking on irrelevant points like the British Monarchy which exercises no power, comment on the immense power of the European Union and justify why we the people cannot have our say on whether we want to be part of this 'ever-closer union'.

Because I really would like a referendum where you can argue that we should be ruled by unelected mandarins from Brussels who intend to abolish this nation-state and create a European Superstate, whereas I can argue we should be independent and remain as a sovereign state.

I have the confidence in my arguments that I would like the public to decide, unlike the ruling classes, yourself and the EU.

[GommeInc]

And the Greek referendum is the most stupid decision made by a politician in a long time. If the Greeks vote against it, they could cause a global economic crisis. That would be a perfect example of a referendum that was a bad idea.
Not pulling out will delay the inevitable. Global economic problems will always exist, and the EU isn't helping the matter as it is a huge drain on resources. There are more disadvantages than there are good. Many of the countries that make up the EU have existed well so far without it, they can do it again without penalties and huge demands for money. The only benefits of the EU can be done with smaller, "free" commissions based on brain-storming groups that discuss and debate issues, rather than push them through causing a economic strain on resources, where change usually costs money - especially changes that are unnecessary.

[Wig44.]

That is so hypocritical! Don't allow the unelected EU commissioners decide, but let the unelected people (who will have far less knowledge than the unelected EU commissioners) decide. Yeah right.


*Removed* Do you know what a democracy is? I've no love for 99% of the stuff you post on here but I didn't think you would sink as low as to say something as stupid as this.

No, I can see where you're coming from - people voting for the wrong reasons, etc. I agree with this concern but at the end of the day, if the country doesn't belong to the people then it isn't a country at all.

As for the rest of your post, Dan seems to have done a good job.


Edited by Catzsy (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not be rude to others.

[AgnesIO]

*removed* Do you know what a democracy is? I've no love for 99% of the stuff you post on here but I didn't think you would sink as low as to say something as stupid as this.

No, I can see where you're coming from - people voting for the wrong reasons, etc. I agree with this concern but at the end of the day, if the country doesn't belong to the people then it isn't a country at all.

As for the rest of your post, Dan seems to have done a good job.

Thank for your kind words, if you feel I am a troll there is a report tool available on this forum.

Isn't it about time you lot actually realised there are some positives to the EU - yeah, maybe the negatives outeigh this, but this would be a pretty **** thread if everyone agreed - there would be nothing to reply to.

It is interesting that my views are similar to that of those who actually have authority etc - also, the Swiss use of referendums etc is wayy over the top.

[.Tom.]

Whilst I dont agree with all the points that Marketing has raised, he/she has raised a few legitimate pros for being in the EU - Especially about what will happen with Trade and number of other issues if we were to pull out.

I'll get more actual data later on today to support this, personally i'm no great fan of the EU - However, I am pragmatic, I accept there are some benefits of us being there.

[GommeInc]

Whilst I dont agree with all the points that Marketing has raised, he/she has raised a few legitimate pros for being in the EU - Especially about what will happen with Trade and number of other issues if we were to pull out.
Not a concern, and the fact that the EU scare mongers with the use of trade is enough of a reason to pull out. Free trade IS free trade, to create borders for countries not in the EU is not free trade and harmful for countries in and out of the EU trading system. Besides, Norway and Switzerland do a good job at surviving without the EU. Infact, a tiny amount of money saved by pulling out of the organisation could go towards setting up a trading agreement with these countries - not that it'll come to that because the more countries that pull out the less benefits for those countries in the EU as it will only be harming itself, as it has been doing since its creation by sticking its fingers up at foreign trade coming from Africa, America and Asia and being far too bureaucratic for its own good.

One benefit of the EU doesn't mean all of the EU and its systems are good. It's mostly negative in its current form. The EU would do better breaking up, getting rid of the Euro and only existing as a basic, not-for-profit organisation that exists purely for european countries to discuss trade, laws etc but only for discussion, not to push through laws and defeat the point of democracy.

Also, try not to et sources from the EU. You'll be doing the same as asking a murderer wearing their victims skin as a coat why they're innocent and good for society.


Isn't it about time you lot actually realised there are some positives to the EU - yeah, maybe the negatives outeigh this, but this would be a pretty **** thread if everyone agreed - there would be nothing to reply to.
You sort of summed up why people are taking one side and not the other with this very sentence :P

[Chippiewill]

Isn't it about time you lot actually realised there are some positives to the EU - yeah, maybe the negatives outeigh this, but this would be a pretty **** thread if everyone agreed - there would be nothing to reply to.
Sure there's purpose to debate but there's no point standing on the other side of an argument just so Undertaker has somebody to argue with.