Scotland Campaign for Independence Begins

[The Don]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/25/article-2149769-134AD72B000005DC-334_634x405.jpg



The formal campaign for Scottish independence was launched today at a celebrity-endorsed event.
Organisers of the Yes Scotland movement vowed to stage the 'biggest community-based campaign in Scotland’s history' in the run-up to the independence referendum which could take place in October 2014.
Borrowing from America's Declaration of Independence, Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond told the Edinburgh launch 'We unite behind a declaration of self-evident truth.'

The launch comes the same day results of a YouGov poll reveal just 58 per cent of his own Scottish Nationalist Party party back independence from the Union.


I really hope that they vote no, would be a bit ridiculous if they did become independent. What does everyone here think?

[dbgtz]

I think the funny thing here is the lack of confidence Salmond is showing with getting his dear independence. If he starts his campaign 2 years in advance he clearly doesn't have much faith in the people voting for independence, along with his push to allow 16 and 17 year olds to vote. While I'm all for allowing the choice, Salmond doesn't really seem to post any other points for his side apart from "FREEDOM!" and doesn't bother to even consider staying in the union apart from this Devolution max, whatever that may be. Overall, I think it would be a mistake for Scotland to go independent but it's their choice, I just wish they were properly educated rather than a fat man blabbing nonsense.

I also think it would be interesting to see the result if there was a question of giving their powers back to Westminster.

Also I just took a look at their manifesto and it says: "This postponed Scotland’s desire for devolution for two decades and condemned Scotland to spend 18 years under a Conservative Government for which it had never voted". Either this people are so blinded by their vision they fail to see why this statement is stupid or they manipulated the situation to suit themselves, sort of like what Salmond's doing now.

[Chippiewill]

I don't mind if scotland wants independence but would it really hurt to wait a couple of years for the economy to be in better shape first?

[Choco]

I'm from Scotland and i think its stupid, we wouldn't have any BBC programs except BBC Scotland and apparently we would have to have our own currency... its a lot of hassle for nothing... Alex Salmon shouldn't even started this, doesn't he live in London...

[-:Undertaker:-]

A few points really on what is a wide-ranging topic.

The referendum and devolution - To end this frankly simple issue, the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland ought to be offered a choice. To remain within the United Kingdom (a unitary state, not a federal state) they must abolish the regional parliaments and assemblies to conform with the constitutional structure of the United Kingdom. If not, they can retain their seperate parliaments and become independence nation states.

Devolution 'max' - If any attempt is made at 'devo max' I don't even think I can support what has become a useless Union anymore. If Scotland were to have maximum devolution - then what would be the point of the United Kingdom apart from being a conveyor belt of cash from England to Scotland/the other nation states? does anybody think this process would last very long, because I do not.

A second point on devolution 'max' and it's in the news at the moment; the Euro crisis. If Scotland were to become fiscally independent (set its own budget and monetary affairs but stay within the Sterling zone) then within a few years we would face the same problem as the Eurozone does now. For without political union you cannot have a monetary union - it just doesn't work.

The campaign itself - I don't quite like how both sides are centering their arguments around economic/world affairs. Surely if they feel British as I do, then they will vote on British identity such as the Battle of Waterloo, Empress Victoria and the British Empire as opposed to silly argument about using the Pound Sterling, north sea oil or Scotland 'going bankrupt'. If people in Scotland don't feel British and are simply staying for subsidies among other things, then I really urge them to go now as it is wasting both our time.

Who is to blame for this shambles - Labour introduced devolution in 1999, the Liberal Democrats support it and the Conservatives have done nothing to reverse or oppose it. The situation we are in now is a result of mindless constitutional tinkering by people who can only be described as idiots.

[jasey]

If you are interested in reading more about separatist movements like this, definitely have a read about the movement to pull Québec out of Canada. There are plenty of nation splits and separatist movements all over the world but they take a very different route in more modern, western nations. Many Québécois feel a certain independent, national identity from the rest of Canada since the province speaks French as its official language as opposed to English. In fact, they came a hair's width away from separating in one of their referendums in the '90s.

The movement lost a lot of steam after that but it is picking up again and I think this one is inevitable. Canada has had some interesting interactions with the province including granting Québec special 'nation' status inside of the bigger nation, Canada. When Canada repatriated our constitution from the United Kingdom in the early '80s, there was a big Québécois uproar again. Canada wanted full control over the constitution because, until then, Canada was still technically dependent on signatures and authorisations from the British government to pass certain things.

When the constitution was repatriated, the Prime Minister wanted to amend it a bit to suit modern civil rights a bit more and every province in the country agreed to the premise except for Québec — the province wanted more power and recognition. That is actually the event that led up to the most successful independence referendum that I spoke about. That referendum was in '95 and the 'NO' side only won by 0.6%. It's interesting.

Anyways, I realise this isn't talk on Scotland but I think that if you are looking to read about a similar movement that has been in the public eye and had more action involved in a similar nation then I would look to this issue. It could give you insight on how certain things with the Scotland campaign may pass in the future. Here are a couple of Wikipedia links to start with.

Québec Sovereignty Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_sovereignty_movement)
Meech Lake Accord (Québécois disagreement with the new constitution) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meech_Lake_Accord)

[Ajthedragon]

Clearly if his reasoning for the Scottish referendum is 18 years of Conservative rule it didn't vote for then East Anglia should also be made an independent country as we didn't vote for 13 years of Labour rule (throughout that time I think we had about. It's a pathetic excuse given England generally as a whole has favours Conservative government compared to a Labour and if Scotland were not part of the UK I'm sure the UK government would be very different to what it is today, and in the past 7 years.

It would be undemocratic to deny the Scottish a referendum if they really do want to leave the UK, but I simply do not believe they do. Alex Salmond clearly doesn't given how early he is starting his campaign.

[Red]

I really don't want the union to break up :( Im proud of my British identity and Scotland leaving will only push us closer to a united Ireland. urgh.

[Grig]

not going to happen, to cut on all the chit-chat here. British Parliament has the power to over-rule referendums and that is what they're gonna do if it ever comes to it.

[buttons]

Also I just took a look at their manifesto and it says: "This postponed Scotland’s desire for devolution for two decades and condemned Scotland to spend 18 years under a Conservative Government for which it had never voted". Either this people are so blinded by their vision they fail to see why this statement is stupid or they manipulated the situation to suit themselves, sort of like what Salmond's doing now.
why are people stupid for thinking that? :S

not going to happen, to cut on all the chit-chat here. British Parliament has the power to over-rule referendums and that is what they're gonna do if it ever comes to it.
yeah i know but westminister also has the power to demolish scottish parliament and get rid of devolution but its so far in that if they ever did there would be chaos. it's the scottish people's right to a refernendum...

ANYWAY i don't care either way. even if we crash and burn, i'd love to see it and i think it'd be interesting. just to see how much we all take for granted. i reckon we'd be fine the first few years but everything will go down the drain afterwards. i just wish people, especially MY generation, would vote based on what they think is best for the country - not because they hate england...

[Grig]

why are people stupid for thinking that? :S

yeah i know but westminister also has the power to demolish scottish parliament and get rid of devolution but its so far in that if they ever did there would be chaos. it's the scottish people's right to a refernendum...

ANYWAY i don't care either way. even if we crash and burn, i'd love to see it and i think it'd be interesting. just to see how much we all take for granted. i reckon we'd be fine the first few years but everything will go down the drain afterwards. i just wish people, especially MY generation, would vote based on what they think is best for the country - not because they hate england...

Despite that, it's the system and it is the scenario that I would expect would happen IF they do vote in favour of independence, no matter how it goes against the people's will. Why do you think independence in Ireland was so bloody :P.

[FlyingJesus]

why are people stupid for thinking that? :S

Because lots of people didn't vote for the government that presides over them, but that's how democracy works. In fact, no-one at all voted for our current government since you can't vote for a coalition to form


it's the scottish people's right to a refernendum...

Is it? I've never seen any legal document stating such a right, I could be wrong but it sounds like the same sort of "right" as the right to beat your children and preach racist dogma

[dbgtz]

why are people stupid for thinking that? :S

Because that's just like saying I didn't vote for Labour or whatever therefore I should be independent. And how about those who did not want devolution and did not vote SNP? Now they're under rule of a government they never voted and have powers they never wanted them to have. Everyone in the UK has a vote on government and the only thing making the system unfair at the moment is devolved powers everywhere but England.