Transgender woman wants to fight in women's MMA

[mrwoooooooo]

Should it be allowed? seeing as she's basically a man


"I don't believe a transgender fighter should have to disclose her personal medical history to other female fighters before they fight," she said. "It's simply for the reason the medical community and the scientific community have come to the consensus that post-operative transsexual fighters who have been on hormone-replacement therapy and testosterone suppression, when they're going from male to female, haven't been found to have any physiological advantages over other women.

"So why should we have to disclose our personal medical history?"

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/2024/0306fallonarticlecombo2.jpg

http://www.mmajunkie.com/news/2013/03/fallon-fox-transgender-mma-fighters-shouldnt-have-to-disclose-to-opponents

She's had two fights, both knock-outs with in 2 minutes

[FlyingJesus]

She is a woman and should be allowed to compete as one. Especially post-op it should be a no-brainer, but I guess having no brain is rampant in the ranks of hxf membership

[mrwoooooooo]

She is a woman and should be allowed to compete as one. Especially post-op it should be a no-brainer, but I guess having no brain is rampant in the ranks of hxf membership
But is it fair on the other opponents? Her body was developed as a male and is no doubt stronger than any female she will fight.

[Adam]

'She' is a man. No.

[FlyingJesus]

But is it fair on the other opponents? Her body was developed as a male and is no doubt stronger than any female she will fight.

If that's the way you want to call it then only people of the exact same size, weight, muscle proportion and distribution should be allowed to compete with one another. Also you're being totally ridiculous if you truly believe that all males are stronger than all females just for the way they're born


'She' is a man. No.

Wow good debate

[mrwoooooooo]

If that's the way you want to call it then only people of the exact same size, weight, muscle proportion and distribution should be allowed to compete with one another. Also you're being totally ridiculous if you truly believe that all males are stronger than all females just for the way they're born



Wow good debate
Males have a higher bone density than females.

[Kyle]

Since she's on HRT and has had her testosterone suppressed then I don't see what advantage she could possibly have over the other competitors. Bone density differs between race and diet too so that can't really be used against her.

[Adam]

There's no debate. She is a man.

[FlyingJesus]

There's no debate. She is a man.

Being a bigot and repeating yourself doesn't make you right. You haven't presented any argument at all other than a basic lie, since a trans person's past doesn't dictate who/what they are now

[Adam]

Being a bigot and repeating yourself doesn't make you right. You haven't presented any argument at all other than a basic lie, since a trans person's past doesn't dictate who/what they are now

So was Michael Jackson black or white?

[FlyingJesus]

So was Michael Jackson black or white?

Black with vitiligo, but race and gender aren't comparable anyway

[Adam]

Black with vitiligo, but race and gender aren't comparable anyway
Men, as a gender, are stronger/more powerful than woman and that's why IN THIS CASE she shouldn't be allowed to compete. It's quite simple. I can't be arsed getting into a debate because it'll end up not about this subject and more the overall view on transgender which isn't what this particular thread is about.

[FlyingJesus]

Generalisations have no place in debates - clearly not all men are stronger than all women, and if having certain masculine features is your issue then there are a hell of a lot of sportswomen who apparently have no place in female competitions

[Adam]

Generalisations have no place in debates - clearly not all men are stronger than all women, and if having certain masculine features is your issue then there are a hell of a lot of sportswomen who apparently have no place in female competitions

In general. Of course a woman can be stronger than a man, but genetics show us males are stronger than females. That's not sexism or anything, that's scientific fact. Therefore it's not fair on her women opponents.

Call me a bigot or whatver because insults will get you far but: born with a ****, you're a man. If certain psychological issues mean you think you're a woman, you can think it, doesn't change the fact you are a man.

</apparent bigotry>

[FlyingJesus]

I didn't call you a bigot to insult you I called you a bigot because you have bigoted views, ie: you'll firmly believe in certain things despite any argument or proof to the contrary, with no actual backing other than "because". You accepted that women are not by necessity weaker than men, and then totally ignored that point in favour of your original beliefs - that's bigotry. Either not all men are stronger than all women, or they are, you can't claim to agree with both but only support one side of it.

And if you want things to be fair in terms of strength then refer to my second post where I pointed out how absurd it is to shout about physical equality in a competitive field

[The Don]

I'm all for equality and fairness, but I strongly disagree with this. This video will explain why I disagree. EDIT: I don't agree with his opinion on the psychology behind it, simply on why there are physical advantages.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_SBRYUC1LE

[FlyingJesus]

Guy loses all credibility when he says that Fallon is likely to be using male hormones in her training - clearly knows nothing about how the transition from male to female works or how fragile that process can be, and no-one committed to such a procedure would be taking any sort of male hormone since the entire point is to get those levels lowered. That he then goes on to say that MTF trans people probably have resentment towards women (because obviously we all want to be what we hate...) is just hateful and completely goes against his claim that he's for equality. As you get further and further into the video he shows himself up as more and more of a disgusting person who knows nothing about what he's talking about on this issue.

Was wary from the very start considering that he took such pains to try to tell us how much he's for equal opportunities, people who make disclaimers like that tend to be far more damaging than those who blast outright hatred because they make it look like they're trying to help when really they're just as ignorant as anyone else who hasn't been properly involved with the topics they try talking about. He also seems to think that sex changes are done just for the hell of it or as a tool to win medals...

[The Don]

Whilst he does make some redundant points you can't dispute his argument about there being a genetic advantage to transgender athletes. Regardless of what hormones they take, they are still going to have a superior reach,greater bone density, bigger hands (all the parts which were mentioned in the video, which you also failed to address). Your argument against this in a different post (due to it being a competitive sport there are obviously going to be some natural advantages to some of the fighters) is unfair as those physical traits which differ between females isn't nearly as varied as the physical differences between males and females.

[Inseriousity.]

But there's no such thing as a level playing field in sports. Someone is going to be better than you. That's competition. This reminds me of when that female athlete wiped the floor with her opponents and instead of 'well done' it was all 'is she a man? is she taking drugs?' I'm pretty sure that was proven false (although correct me if I'm wrong as I didn't follow the story religiously). It's likely then that she was born with certain physical advantages and boosted by a lot of training meant she won. I see no difference between that story then and this one other than the fact she used to be a man.

[mrwoooooooo]

But there's no such thing as a level playing field in sports. Someone is going to be better than you. That's competition. This reminds me of when that female athlete wiped the floor with her opponents and instead of 'well done' it was all 'is she a man? is she taking drugs?' I'm pretty sure that was proven false (although correct me if I'm wrong as I didn't follow the story religiously). It's likely then that she was born with certain physical advantages and boosted by a lot of training meant she won. I see no difference between that story then and this one other than the fact she used to be a man.

Caster semenya, she was found to have a higher testosterone count than the average e female athlete (hence her masculine looks /build)

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[Inseriousity.]

I'm assuming it was natural and not drug-enhanced. If so, no-one would suggest that she should be banned from female sports and compete with the men. The same should apply in this situation too then.

[mrwoooooooo]

I'm assuming it was natural and not drug-enhanced. If so, no-one would suggest that she should be banned from female sports and compete with the men. The same should apply in this situation too then.

I disagree. The runner's was natural whereas I would class a sex change op to be unnatural, so she would have an unnatural advantage

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[Kyle]

I disagree. The runner's was natural whereas I would class a sex change op to be unnatural, so she would have an unnatural advantage

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
But the natural advantage she might have had has been suppressed/replaced :S

[Adam]

But the natural advantage she might have had has been suppressed/replaced :S

Has 'she' had muscle transplants?

[Kardan]

But the natural advantage she might have had has been suppressed/replaced :S

This is a very tricky subject, and I can't really decide. If she is legally female, then she should be able to take part in female competitions, and whilst I agree with you that her natural advantage has been suppressed/replaced, there will be things about her that will give her an advantage, as mentioned before, hand size. Whether or not that is significant enough for it to be deemed 'unfair' who knows. I would probably say let her compete, but I can see why people would be angry/upset.

---------- Post added 23-04-2013 at 02:42 PM ----------


Has 'she' had muscle transplants?

And you really need to stop with the whole quotation marks around she... She is legally a female.

[Adam]

This is a very tricky subject, and I can't really decide. If she is legally female, then she should be able to take part in female competitions, and whilst I agree with you that her natural advantage has been suppressed/replaced, there will be things about her that will give her an advantage, as mentioned before, hand size. Whether or not that is significant enough for it to be deemed 'unfair' who knows. I would probably say let her compete, but I can see why people would be angry/upset.

---------- Post added 23-04-2013 at 02:42 PM ----------



And you really need to stop with the whole quotation marks around she... She is legally a female.
If you're born with a penis you are a man. Simple concept.

[Aiden]

She should be allowed to fight, rights have changed, and if she can do somethings like a women, she should get full rights. Why shouldn't she? It's like saying a man who works out more shouldn't get to fight because he's stronger :L

[Adam]

BTW: giving out negative reputation in a debate thread? Way to go. I have my opinions like you have yours. That's why it's a debate. Just because you don't agree doesn't make that opinion wrong.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Somebody who undergoes a 'sex change' operation isn't different afterwards apart from some comestic changes - a man who 'changes' to a woman will always have male bone structure, male hands, a male brain, male strength (generally) and so on. I am so fed up of having to pretend that everything is 'right' just because it might upset some people if I say otherwise - somebody born as a male will always be a male, period.

I feel sorry for people with such a condition and question whether allowing them to fulfil their desires is actually the best method of solving a problem - either way, its not my decision .... but i'm not going to sit here and pretend that a man who has had his bits cut off is as female as my mother. Sorry, just can't do it - reality turned upside down.

So no, 'she' shouldn't be allowed to compete because 'she' isn't a female underneath. Period.


And you really need to stop with the whole quotation marks around she... She is legally a female.

A law doesn't make something true, just or right. The government could outlaw gravity tommorow or legislate that the sky is purple as opposed to blue.

Reality triumphs law in every case, just look to economics for that.

[Kardan]

If you're born with a penis you are a man. Simple concept.

In the eyes of the law I was born a minor, am I still a minor?

Same argument for people that say they weren't born gay but later became gay...

It's called change :P

---------- Post added 23-04-2013 at 03:24 PM ----------



A law doesn't make something true, just or right. The government could outlaw gravity tommorow or legislate that the sky is purple as opposed to blue.

Reality triumphs law in every case, just look to economics for that.

Yes, you're right, but in this case, why does the gender at birth override the current gender? Would you describe someone who was born with blonde hair, but naturally darkened to brown as they grew up, as a blonde?

Or would you say someone who lost both legs in a car accident as having both legs, since they were born with both legs?

[-:Undertaker:-]

In the eyes of the law I was born a minor, am I still a minor?

Same argument for people that say they weren't born gay but later became gay...

It's called change :P

A Laburnum sapling that grows up may not be a sapling anymore, but it's remained a Laburnum tree throughout its life because its DNA cannot be changed - even if I stuck or even grafted Cherry Tree branches onto the Laburnum, it'd still be a Laburnum.

The fact we even debate whether a man who has his penis taken off and a false vagina put on (whilst taking hormone injections throughout his life) is a woman or not shows how warped reality has become.


Yes, you're right, but in this case, why does the gender at birth override the current gender? Would you describe someone who was born with blonde hair, but naturally darkened to brown as they grew up, as a blonde?

Or would you say someone who lost both legs in a car accident as having both legs, since they were born with both legs?

As far as i'm aware, on forms it asks what sex you are - and your sex isn't something you can change through any amount of operations. What gender you 'identify' with doesn't matter in the slightest; if a contest is male-only then by any standard or sane definition that means males only due to the fact males are a different sex and are different to females in many ways.

As for the legs example, they should have legs but don't because of a tragic accident. The should being the important point. Just as somebody born as the sex classification of a male should have a penis but in some cases doesn't - doesn't mean they aren't still a male.

I could lose my penis and limbs in some horrific accident and then call myself a female - i'm still a male, as my DNA and bone structure proves.

[Adam]

In the eyes of the law I was born a minor, am I still a minor?

Same argument for people that say they weren't born gay but later became gay...

It's called change :P

Are you kidding me with this? So if I have plastic surgery to look like a dog, eat dog food and do dog stuff does that make me a dog?

[Kardan]

A Laburnum sapling that grows up may not be a sapling anymore, but it's remained a Laburnum tree throughout its life because its DNA cannot be changed - even if I stuck or even grafted Cherry Tree branches onto the Laburnum, it'd still be a Laburnum.

The fact we even debate whether a man who has his penis taken off and a false vagina put on (whilst taking hormone injections throughout his life) is a woman or not shows how warped reality has become.


As far as i'm aware, on forms it asks what sex you are - and your sex isn't something you can change through any amount of operations. What gender you 'identify' with doesn't matter in the slightest; if a contest is male-only then by any standard or sane definition that means males only due to the fact males are a different sex and are different to females in many ways.

As for the legs example, they should have legs but don't because of a tragic accident. The should being the important point. Just as somebody born as the sex classification of a male should have a penis but in some cases doesn't - doesn't mean they aren't still a male.

I could lose my penis and limbs in some horrific accident and then call myself a female - i'm still a male, as my DNA and bone structure proves.

So what about hermaphrodites? What gender are they? Do they get to enter male/female only competitions?

[JACKTARD]

Will her body not produce certain hormones to give her an advantage over other women? They wouldn't be able to take certain hormones to get an advantage so why should she be able to?

[-:Undertaker:-]

So what about hermaphrodites? What gender are they? Do they get to enter male/female only competitions?

I don't know enough about them to comment. I'm talking about the examples i've provided. The point being is, the sex you are (and whether you can take part in male or female competitions) depends on what your DNA/bone structure say - not whether or not you've had your penis removed and take hormones injections to maintain false breasts

When we find a decomposed body from a few months, years or hundreds of years ago - we don't identify whether they were female or male by the clothes, sexual organ, birth certificate, lawful documents or hairstyle they had... we take a DNA sample and examine the bone structure and come to a conclusion. In the end when we end up in the ground, any pretence concerning what sex we 'felt' we were will rot away and the only thing that will remain is the truth; male or female bones containing male or female DNA.

[Adam]

Answer my question Kardan

[Kardan]

Are you kidding me with this? So if I have plastic surgery to look like a dog, eat dog food and do dog stuff does that make me a dog?

I think cross species is a bit different to cross gender :P

---------- Post added 23-04-2013 at 03:44 PM ----------


I don't know enough about them to comment. I'm talking about the examples i've provided. The point being is, the sex you are (and whether you can take part in male or female competitions) depends on what your DNA/bone structure say - not whether or not you've had your penis removed and take hormones injections to maintain false breasts

When we find a decomposed body from a few months, years or hundreds of years ago - we don't identify whether they were female or male by the clothes, sexual organ, birth certificate, lawful documents or hairstyle they had... we take a DNA sample and examine the bone structure and come to a conclusion. In the end when we end up in the ground, any pretence concerning what sex we 'felt' we were will rot away and the only thing that will remain is the truth; male or female bones containing male or female DNA.

The points you make are pretty valid for the sex of a person, but I'm talking gender which is more fluid than sex :P I suppose at the end of the day it's up to the competition holders and whether they judge it on sex or gender.

[Cerys]

Don't know if this has been said, but I feel like contributing:

In the eyes of the law, if your birth certificate says man, you are a man. Even if you have a full sex change. If you were a man but now a woman, you can not marry a man because that's gay marriage. As much as I disagree with that < how is this any different? Your birth certificate says a man.

I think it'd be unfair.

[Adam]

I think cross species is a bit different to cross gender :P


That's discrimination.

[Kardan]

Don't know if this has been said, but I feel like contributing:

In the eyes of the law, if your birth certificate says man, you are a man. Even if you have a full sex change. If you were a man but now a woman, you can not marry a man because that's gay marriage. As much as I disagree with that < how is this any different? Your birth certificate says a man.

I think it'd be unfair.

My birth certificate has details on it that are not true now, so birth certificates aren't the judge of such things either :P I suppose DNA is probably the only thing that could truly identify a person's sex.

---------- Post added 23-04-2013 at 03:54 PM ----------


That's discrimination.

Everything can be discrimination if you really want it to be...

[Adam]

Everything can be discrimination if you really want it to be...
If I get a tail transplant then I am a dog, according to your analogies.

In the real world, I'm a man with a tail. Just like 'she' is a man without a tail.

[Kardan]

Don't know if this has been said, but I feel like contributing:

In the eyes of the law, if your birth certificate says man, you are a man. Even if you have a full sex change. If you were a man but now a woman, you can not marry a man because that's gay marriage. As much as I disagree with that < how is this any different? Your birth certificate says a man.

I think it'd be unfair.

Also, turns out that you can change the sex on your birth certificate, so people that do get their gender reassigned actually have their birth certificate saying the gender they want it too...

https://www.gov.uk/correct-birth-registration/what-corrections-can-be-made

[FlyingJesus]

BTW: giving out negative reputation in a debate thread? Way to go. I have my opinions like you have yours. That's why it's a debate. Just because you don't agree doesn't make that opinion wrong.

Stating falsities is not the same as having a difference in opinion, and if you can't understand that then you have no place whatsoever being in a debate


As for the legs example, they should have legs but don't because of a tragic accident. The should being the important point. Just as somebody born as the sex classification of a male should have a penis but in some cases doesn't - doesn't mean they aren't still a male.

A female SHOULD have increased breast tissue and a vagina, so going by your own argument someone who fully identifies as female but has a male body is merely a victim of a "tragic accident". If you want to refute this by talking about how one is born, then consider that a human being SHOULD have fully functioning organs and features, and that if you want to carry on with your ridiculously flawed argument then one assumes that you consider anyone with a birth defect to be a non-human


the sex you are (and whether you can take part in male or female competitions) depends on what your DNA/bone structure say

Structural generalities are not 100% natural law, and there are a great many thousand women with Y chromosomes and men with XX. You stated that you don't know enough about intersex people to comment on them, but considering they're 1% of the world's population that's a hell of a lot of people you're erasing - certainly worth looking into if this is the sort of discussion you want to be involved in


If I get a tail transplant then I am a dog, according to your analogies.

In the real world, I'm a man with a tail. Just like 'she' is a man without a tail.

*REMOVED* The difference between male and female is nothing like the difference between human and dog - and humans do have tails

Edited by Matts (Forum Super Moderator): Please respect other forum members!

[Adam]

*REMOVED* The difference between male and female is nothing like the difference between human and dog - and humans do have tails

I just wrote a long reply but it's not even worth it. Launching a personal attack on my intellect has no place in debates or in life. It's amazing how ludicrously egotistical you are.

[FlyingJesus]

Stating "opinions" without any basis has no place in debates or life. Also I don't deny that I'm egotistical but that's got nothing to do with my post since nothing I've said is about me being better than anyone, so nice one telling me off for a personal comment and then going right on to do the very same thing

[Adam]

Stating "opinions" without any basis has no place in debates or life. Also I don't deny that I'm egotistical but that's got nothing to do with my post since nothing I've said is about me being better than anyone, so nice one telling me off for a personal comment and then going right on to do the very same thing
Egotistical isn't an attack, you are and you've proved it. Attacking my intelligence is ridiculous. What? Because my opinion is different from yours it has no basis? Superb.

[FlyingJesus]

It has no basis because you're failing time and time again to provide one other than "because". All that you've done is repeat yourself and be obnoxiously transphobic - which certainly is an attack whether you mean it to be or not

[Ardemax]

I would agree with actual UK law: if you're born a man, you are forever a man, legally speaking.

[FlyingJesus]

I would agree with actual UK law: if you're born a man, you are forever a man, legally speaking.

Oh right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004)

[sex]

i didn't realize so many young people in this day and age where still so ******* idiotic when it comes to this stuff lol

she's not a man, she identifies as a women and wants to be seen as that so that's what she should be seen as

[mrwoooooooo]

Stating "opinions" without any basis has no place in debates or life. Also I don't deny that I'm egotistical but that's got nothing to do with my post since nothing I've said is about me being better than anyone, so nice one telling me off for a personal comment and then going right on to do the very same thing


She is a woman and should be allowed to compete as one. Especially post-op it should be a no-brainer, but I guess having no brain is rampant in the ranks of hxf membership

anyone who has an opinion that differs from yours has no brain? mmk

just sayin'

[FlyingJesus]

By all means continue not to actually address any of the points with credible arguments. AGAIN, opinions and provably false statements are not the same thing

[e5]

He/She will still have the strength of which a man holds so not exactly fair...

[GommeInc]

Hmm, interesting case. She should be allowed to fight in a women's tournament because she is a woman. However, the problem is the remnants of her past - was she incredibly fit as a man and has that carried onto her now-female form? There could be some advantage to becoming a woman and fighting as a woman if, and specifically IF, she hasn't changed that much physically if she was physically fit and capable to fight in a men's tournament, as I believe they have very different fighting weights (you have to have knowledge on MMA, of which I lack :P).

She had the op in 2006, so I'd hazard a guess that the hormone treatment should of worked and she would be fighting at a women's level. If there are problems the MMA could always investigate further to see if she is at an advantage, but this was over 6 years ago. A lot could change and she may just be a really good fighter as a woman.

[Zak]

I don't think it's fair on the other female fighters, in my eyes she will always be male.. If a friend of mine was a women but had a sex change to become a man, increased testosterone etc I'd still view them as female. I just think she will have an advantage over the other competitors no matter what anyone says on here.. that's my opinion

[Yawn]

its not fair on the other fighters a lesbian might make them feel uncomfortable

[GommeInc]

Have there been any tests on whether or not there is a physical and possibly biological advantage to her being a fighter in a women's match (and not on capability)? If there have been and they prove she is at advantage then yeah that's fair as there is some concrete evidence. It seems to deny her to fight purely because she has had a sex change without first investigating it.

Am I just being too fair? I'm not one to discriminate over petty things, and believe in fair chances :P

[Ardemax]

Oh right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004)

I'm like 99.99% certain if you're born a man you can only legally marry a woman.

[FlyingJesus]

If they're legally recognised as female then that's that, and they can in that case currently only marry a male, but that's set to change obv with new gay marriage laws being drawn up. Aside from that, they could get a civil partnership no matter what their legal status. Regardless of either case, UK law does not in any way suggest that "if you're born a man, you are forever a man", so if you want to side with the law as you said then that's fine since it's inclusive :P

[Ardemax]

If they're legally recognised as female then that's that, and they can in that case currently only marry a male, but that's set to change obv with new gay marriage laws being drawn up. Aside from that, they could get a civil partnership no matter what their legal status. Regardless of either case, UK law does not in any way suggest that "if you're born a man, you are forever a man", so if you want to side with the law as you said then that's fine since it's inclusive :P

The boundaries of if you're a man or woman are sketchy if you have the op though.

I think they just need a transgender group and then everything will be dandy.

[Empired]

Surely she isn't allowed to enter male-only contest either anymore? If she was also denied access to female-only contests, where does she go now?? Does this mean she's not allowed to play sport competitively just because of the choices she made to make herself happier?

Sounds like a perfect example of discrimination to me (if that's the case, that is).

[Kardan]

Surely she isn't allowed to enter male-only contest either anymore? If she was also denied access to female-only contests, where does she go now?? Does this mean she's not allowed to play sport competitively just because of the choices she made to make herself happier?

Sounds like a perfect example of discrimination to me (if that's the case, that is).

Very good point.

To all the people that say she has the strength of a male, would it be okay if she *did* play in a male tournament? Heck, women wouldn't have an advantage in a male tournament, should they be allowed to play as well? I think they key is that it is separated into male/female tournaments, not ability.

[Empired]

Very good point.

To all the people that say she has the strength of a male, would it be okay if she *did* play in a male tournament? Heck, women wouldn't have an advantage in a male tournament, should they be allowed to play as well? I think they key is that it is separated into male/female tournaments, not ability.
+Rep for that

I agree with this completely. I think there would be no controversy at all here if the competitions were split into level of ability rather than male and female groups. Plus this would mean if there was an outstanding woman boxer (for example), she could perhaps actually have a good battle for once? :P

[Gibs960]

If there is no physical advantages, let her fight. But if there are clear physical advantages, it's not fair.

Her past two fights have been knock outs within two minutes, even for MMA that's fairly quick, right?

[The Don]

Very good point.

To all the people that say she has the strength of a male, would it be okay if she *did* play in a male tournament? Heck, women wouldn't have an advantage in a male tournament, should they be allowed to play as well? I think they key is that it is separated into male/female tournaments, not ability.

No, Women would have a clear disadvantage in a male tournament which is different to 'not having an advantage', the same as women would have a disadvantage fighting against a transgender female who has the physical build of a male even if they look aesthetically the same as a woman.

[,Abbey]

I believe she still should be allowed to fight. After all surely that's discriminating men and women in a way? I think oestrogen gives a male more feminine features so would not make a difference to her opponents. I believe equality should be in society and we should all be given a chance, whether we're gay, bi, tranny, whatever!

NB: "She" looks really good, no lies. The surgeons did a good job :hmm:

[Kardan]

No, Women would have a clear disadvantage in a male tournament which is different to 'not having an advantage', the same as women would have a disadvantage fighting against a transgender female who has the physical build of a male even if they look aesthetically the same as a woman.

I'm not arguing such things, but if she played in a male tournament, is that fair on her or the men?

[mrwoooooooo]

I'm not arguing such things, but if she played in a male tournament, is that fair on her or the men?

she used to be a man, so yes its fair imo. look at her. she's more masculine than Comity;

[FlyingJesus]

So now we base the right to compete on how someone looks?

[GommeInc]

So now we base the right to compete on how someone looks?
Seems that way. The Williams sisters should probably be banned from women's tennis and certainly be banned from Wimbledon, going by this logic :P They're huge compared to other tennis players.

[mrwoooooooo]

So now we base the right to compete on how someone looks?

Yeah, if that's how you want to twist my words. let's ban Torres from men's football too

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[Sian]

now this is an interesting one, let me start by clarifying two things.

gender is the cultural and social structured male or female, sex is the biological male or female, that is a scientific fact.

So yes, your sex will always be what you were born as, because some biological features cannot be changed, however I do believe it is the gender that counts more, because your social, culture and personality are what defines you as a person etc.

Therefore with this debate I do believe this woman has a right to fight, there are plenty of other women who are most likely stronger than her, and yeh she'll knock out a few people but you go into fighting knowing there's a high risk you're going to get knocked out. It doesn't matter, the only thing that should matter is if she did anything illegally.

[Adam]

would it be okay if she *did* play in a male tournament?
Yes because 'she' is a man. There's a reason why women don't fight with the men and if you take your rose tinted specs off and see that men, as a general rule, are stronger than women, you'd see that. Put Ronda Rousey in the cage with Brock Lesnar and we'll prove our point.

[FlyingJesus]

Yeah, if that's how you want to twist my words. let's ban Torres from men's football too

How else can one take "look at her. she's more masculine than Comity"?


now this is an interesting one, let me start by clarifying two things.

gender is the cultural and social structured male or female, sex is the biological male or female, that is a scientific fact.

So yes, your sex will always be what you were born as, because some biological features cannot be changed, however I do believe it is the gender that counts more, because your social, culture and personality are what defines you as a person etc.

Therefore with this debate I do believe this woman has a right to fight, there are plenty of other women who are most likely stronger than her, and yeh she'll knock out a few people but you go into fighting knowing there's a high risk you're going to get knocked out. It doesn't matter, the only thing that should matter is if she did anything illegally.

Close but no cigar. You have the correct conclusion but sex (whilst being the biological side of it as you said) isn't a fixed thing - hence there being a difference between transgender and transsexual. A transsexual is someone who, like Fallon Fox, has been biologically transformed to a different sex. There are quite a large number of cases of it happening naturally in the animal world, quite interesting :P


Yes because 'she' is a man.

No, she isn't. Legally and hormonally she is now a female, and your ignorance doesn't change that fact. I was born bald and yellow, things change

[Adam]

Yeah it happens in nature but that is nature. Nature doesn't go to the doctor to have their penis removed. This is man made. 'She' is a man. My ignorance is my opinion.

[FlyingJesus]

Would you argue that "test tube babies" aren't real humans then

[Adam]

Would you argue that "test tube babies" aren't real humans then
If you take sperm from a man, egg from a woman and go through the same process as would normally happen then no. It's simulation of nature. Chopping a penis off is not simulation of nature.

If we're talking stem cell sperm/egg then yes, not a real human. Man made.

[Empired]

Yes because 'she' is a man. There's a reason why women don't fight with the men and if you take your rose tinted specs off and see that men, as a general rule, are stronger than women, you'd see that. Put Ronda Rousey in the cage with Brock Lesnar and we'll prove our point.
Seeing as she is consuming hormones to make her female, she will be not be nearly as male as the men competing in a Male-Only comp. Letting her compete in the male competition will put her at risk because she's simply not the same as them.

You seem to be only looking at this from one perspective (that she's not fully female) but she is definitely more female than male now.

If you don't want her to compete in female-only competitions and she would be at risk in male-only competitions, do you have another suggestion? Instead of only saying "she cannot compete in women only contests", please suggest another option instead of just telling us the same thing over and over.

[Adam]

People can be more affeminate, sure. They might believe they are female, sure. By some law, she might be female, sure. But she was born a man so she is a man. She should compete in male competition because she is a man.

[Empired]

People can be more affeminate, sure. They might believe they are female, sure. By some law, she might be female, sure. But she was born a man so she is a man. She should compete in male competition because she is a man.
Sorry, maybe I should repeat what I said:

Just saying "my opinion is right because I say so" is not a reasonable argument. I would be willing to come round and see your point of view if you give me a better reason than "BECAUSE", but you have failed to do that so far.

Can you come up with another way for her to compete in competitions without
A) Getting hurt in male-only competitions (because she would)?
B) Not partaking in female-only competitions?

If the answer is no, I don't know why you expect us to agree with you....

[Adam]

I never said my opinion is right, not once have I stated that my opinion is correct. An opinion cannot be correct.

Then she should form a transgender fighting championship league.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me. I'm just giving you my two cents. You see, the problem is I completely and utterly understand why she is now classed as a woman and I see why some people are taking the moral high ground (not a dig) and stating so but the fact is you cannot fully change genetics and genetics shows us that males are stronger (in general) than females. There's a reason there's no male vs female fights in the UFC because it would be a bloodbath. It's an unfair advantage for this transgender who, deep down, beneath the oestrogen injections and whatever, is still a man and still has male genetics that give her an advantage over her female counterparts. That's not saying that female cage fighters couldn't beat her up because I'm pretty sure Ronda Rousey would kill me, but that's down to training and conditioning.

All of this said, I think I covered this earlier on, if her female opponents have no problem with it then neither do I. Like I always said, if a female competitor is good enough and wants to compete with male counterparts than so be it.

I believe she is a man. This is an opinion. It is neither correct or incorrect in the eyes of everyone apart from myself. You can disagree or agree, still doesn't make it right or wrong.

Edit: I thank you for taking the mature approach to my counter-argument unlike a certain member here who was quick to pull his gun out of his holster and pull the trigger with his morale high ground approach.

[mrwoooooooo]

I never said my opinion is right, not once have I stated that my opinion is correct. An opinion cannot be correct.

Then she should form a transgender fighting championship league.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me. I'm just giving you my two cents. You see, the problem is I completely and utterly understand why she is now classed as a woman and I see why some people are taking the moral high ground (not a dig) and stating so but the fact is you cannot fully change genetics and genetics shows us that males are stronger (in general) than females. There's a reason there's no male vs female fights in the UFC because it would be a bloodbath. It's an unfair advantage for this transgender who, deep down, beneath the oestrogen injections and whatever, is still a man and still has male genetics that give her an advantage over her female counterparts. That's not saying that female cage fighters couldn't beat her up because I'm pretty sure Ronda Rousey would kill me, but that's down to training and conditioning.

All of this said, I think I covered this earlier on, if her female opponents have no problem with it then neither do I. Like I always said, if a female competitor is good enough and wants to compete with male counterparts than so be it.

I believe she is a man. This is an opinion. It is neither correct or incorrect in the eyes of everyone apart from myself. You can disagree or agree, still doesn't make it right or wrong.

Anyone who has an opinion different to tom is just wrong apparently

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[FlyingJesus]

If you take sperm from a man, egg from a woman and go through the same process as would normally happen then no. It's simulation of nature. Chopping a penis off is not simulation of nature.

If we're talking stem cell sperm/egg then yes, not a real human. Man made.

The "womb" and everything to do with feeding and growth in test-tube babies is mechanical. Sexual reassignment surgery uses the person's own body parts to mechanically engineer parts of their body. It's the exact same thing - in fact, sex change ops could quite easily be seen as less mechanical since it doesn't require machines to simulate body parts.


Anyone who has an opinion different to tom is just wrong apparently

As I've said countless times before, there is a huge difference between having an "opinion" and stating something that is incorrect. If you claim IT'S MY OPINION!!!! but can be proved wrong, it's no longer an opinion but a flawed dogma. This is not a difficult concept.

[Adam]

Anyone who has an opinion different to tom is just wrong apparently

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
Tom isn't wrong, he just has a differing opinion to my own. I believe him to be wrong, but that doesn't make it so.

It's amazing how one person can hold the ego of ten thousand.

[FlyingJesus]

I heartily apologise for basing my opinions on facts

[Empired]

I never said my opinion is right, not once have I stated that my opinion is correct. An opinion cannot be correct.

Then she should form a transgender fighting championship league.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me. I'm just giving you my two cents. You see, the problem is I completely and utterly understand why she is now classed as a woman and I see why some people are taking the moral high ground (not a dig) and stating so but the fact is you cannot fully change genetics and genetics shows us that males are stronger (in general) than females. There's a reason there's no male vs female fights in the UFC because it would be a bloodbath. It's an unfair advantage for this transgender who, deep down, beneath the oestrogen injections and whatever, is still a man and still has male genetics that give her an advantage over her female counterparts. That's not saying that female cage fighters couldn't beat her up because I'm pretty sure Ronda Rousey would kill me, but that's down to training and conditioning.

All of this said, I think I covered this earlier on, if her female opponents have no problem with it then neither do I. Like I always said, if a female competitor is good enough and wants to compete with male counterparts than so be it.

I believe she is a man. This is an opinion. It is neither correct or incorrect in the eyes of everyone apart from myself. You can disagree or agree, still doesn't make it right or wrong.

Edit: I thank you for taking the mature approach to my counter-argument unlike a certain member here who was quick to pull his gun out of his holster and pull the trigger with his morale high ground approach.
This answer is much more fitted to a debate hehe.

I must agree, actually. I think things like tests should be done on her to see just how different she is from the rest of the female competitors and, if there is little difference, she should be allowed to continue with no buts. However, if there is a larger difference, I agree that the competitors should have say in whether or not she participates.

It's all very well the health and safety advisers saying no, but it's not their fight so it should really by up to the competitors. And there should definitely be no arguing if they decide against her participation.

[mrwoooooooo]

I heartily apologise for basing my opinions on facts
sure you can base your opinion just off facts, but I prefer to take the morality of the situation in to account. If Arsenal were bored of not winning anythin,g and they decided to all get sex changes so that they could play in women's football, and win something would that be morally right? not in my opinion

[Adam]

sure you can base your opinion just off facts, but I prefer to take the morality of the situation in to account. If Arsenal were bored of not winning anythin,g and they decided to all get sex changes so that they could play in women's football, and win something would that be morally right? not in my opinion
WHY CAN'T YOU JUST ACCEPT THAT YOU ARE WRONG?!

[FlyingJesus]

This woman didn't change sex so that she could win a competition, obviously that would be utterly ridiculous. All you're doing is showing how little you know about transsexuals. As for morality, Fallon Fox is a woman; forcing her to fight in a men's competition would be massively immoral not to mention downright disrespectful

[Adam]

Nobody is forcing her to do anything. She just cannot compete in womens competition because she's not a woman.

[FlyingJesus]

Legally, hormonally, physically, and mentally, yes she is. The only thing male about her is her past, and if it's past selves that define us rather than who we are now then I'm apparently a communist Christian who thinks ICP are good rappers

[Adam]

Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying.

[.DnB]

NO WAY! She still has the strength of a man meaning it is not fair, in fact quite horrible of her to want to fight natural women, she'd have an unfair advantage, she still developed as a man, no amount of surgery can change that!