No Justice in the Habbox Value System

[HolyWar]

For anyone that has a minute or two to spare.

I've worked for Habbox on 2 seperate occasions in the rare value department and what I've seen is mismanagement, lack of creativity and absolutely no new implementations or even ideas to making the values more accurate. I don't know what credentials .:Oggy:. posesses in order to hold a title of Rare values manager other than the fact he was someones friend and they decided to give him a job. The rare values you end up seeing on the homepage are guessed and the final listed value isn't made on any mathematical conclusion. I've seen Head value reporters who consistenly go around scamming people in "Creds for rare deals". The manager of the RVR department has been an active member on Habbox forum for longer than myself and has a post count of 140, sure looks like he is putting 110% into the job.

After being informed that " I did not pass the RVR trial " I wanted to know why? I had worked previously in the RVR department and was commended for having accurate and fair values and this time that obviously would not appear to have been the case. RVR staff complain about not having enough reporters when they will remove your status as an RVR without a valid reason.

There are some staff in the Rare Value Department that do work hard such as Smiddy just to name one, although there are many that just simply don't work or provide any benefit to the users except for the fact of their "title / status".

You might as well not have a rare value department because you don't calculate the averages correctly and you are completely influencing and directing the values with "mere assumptions" after receiving a PM of what someone says they should display. The RVR department has been one of the areas that Habbox has been in need of revamping and a complete overhaul to make the system more accurate and respected. When a department is not functioning correctly after many attempts to make it better the first thing any organization or corporation does is change the executive staff before changing the small guys.

I'm sure .:Oggy:. was given his position based on friendship and not based on the fact he was good with rare values and good with understanding the market and tools that RVR's need. I don't care who I will offend with this, but it's not the small guys " The RVR's " that should constantly be replaced, it's the manager of the department first and then you should make your way down the list.

Edit by Urges - Thread closed - It is being abused, people are being rude and out of order. Sorry

[Smiddy]

When Steve330 resigned as Rare values manager earleir this year there could of only been 2 contenders for the new title as Rare values manager, Tht was myself and .:OGGY:. because we were the next in line of title ranks.

At this time though, i had the unfortunate accident of being permanent banned [ :( ] But, Oggy deserved the job because he put a hell of a lot of time into the department.

the reason why you didnt pass your trial i'll send via a PM if you wish

Just for the record, i dnt actually feel as though i do as much work as Oggy.

[8Freak8]

I have to admit I do think the Disco sign value was taken a bit too quickly.

Im not sure how you could have worked out that the values are guessed or the averages aren't worked out properly, so obviously there can be no comments on that.

[Carlos]

Great post Keith, i've always thought Habbox's values are sometimes stupid and the management couldn't care less.

[HolyWar]

I have to admit I do think the Disco sign value was taken a bit too quickly.

Im not sure how you could have worked out that the values are guessed or the averages aren't worked out properly, so obviously there can be no comments on that.


Well, like everything in life that has a value there are mathematical averages and Standard operating procedures that are in place in order for fairness. It's not like someone is actually sitting there with a calculator averaging the values based on multiple reports. Someone briefly scans through the reports and then decides if a value should be changed and gives a ballpark figure as opposed to actually calculating the value through a mathematic approach. This results in a biased single opinion and a difference of 1 hc in value to a rare trader could cause a catastrophic loss in worth if they posess multiple quantites of that item. The values are not taken seriously enough and they should rightfully so be taken more seriously considering you are actually playing with real money and are fortunate enough to be the one people turn to when looking for values.

Yes Tom, Please PM me the reason and I'm quite insulted that other people would know a reason when I wasnt' even provided with one myself. That is another unprofessional occurence considering other people are aware and I am not even aware myself.

[Smiddy]

Great post Keith, i've always thought Habbox's values are sometimes stupid and the management couldn't care less.
I am part of The RVR management ya know Carlos? ;)

And we're updating the values more frequently now, so expect the Disco signs value and the sports furni valuse to be upadted more frequently :)

[Carlos]

I am part of The RVR management ya know Carlos? ;)

And we're updating the values more frequently now, so expect the Disco signs value and the sports furni valuse to be upadted more frequently :)

I know you work hard Smiddy, I'm talking about others like Oggy and Mit.

[Smiddy]

as much as you guys may wish to say that Oggy isnt a good contributer towards the squad, you would be surprised.

And mit is a Head Rare Value Reporter who sends myself and Oggy at least 1 set of values a day, seemng as the other 2 HRVR's are currently Absent

[HolyWar]

And one of the HRVR's I watched scam people twice saying he would buy them credits and then didn't. He actually whispered to me after he scammed them admitting it to me, but I didn't want to feel like a rat so I never reported him even though the evidence was there and sorry but I personally don't like people who scam.

.:Oggy:. may be doing a good job but from what I have witnessed the Rare value department has been in need of a serious overhaul for quite some time and there is no one better than him to be the one who leads that change.

Like I said to you before why does someone have to pass a "trial" in order to give their opinion on a rare value? You should make it so that anyone who posts a value on the forum has their input included in deciding a rares value. There's a reason alot of people feel that Habbox rigs the prices and that's because not enough effort is put into making them accurate and too many things are overlooked. For months people have been saying "we are making them more accurate" and I don't doubt that people are trying but surely there is a lack of accomplishment because people still don't have faith in the Habbox value system.

The disco sign was rushed yesterday onto the values page, there wasn't even time allowed for the reporters to get a good feel of what most trades consisted of. It went on so quick that it influenced the price and that is not something that you guys should be doing, it should have been placed on the site later instead of trying to keep up with the value. As I've said before, Habbox should remove the value page for 1 week and let people decide what they truly feel the value of items are without the direct influence of Habbox values.

[8Freak8]

Smiddy if some of the RVRs are away maybe you could open applications for more?

[The Professor]

I absolutely totally agree with TU on this one. I could not see the maj or savomar, to name a few, rising at all, then they suddenly shot up by .5? And you claim its not rigged? The mocha even went up to .6 at a time, though it will ALWAYS be a .5 I DO beleive the values are rigged slightly, on the grounds that random rares suddenly shoot up/down.

[Smiddy]

Smiddy if some of the RVRs are away maybe you could open applications for more?
if people recieved the newsletter this week then they would know there is new places avaiable ;)

Keith, If you do tell me who this person who [ i have a slight suspicion who it may be ] then i shall deal with it accordingly.
I also think 1 week may be a hasty to give a value, because then we would recieve word that we're slacking again, i feel 1 day is long enough to decde a value.
And if we want only the best RVR's then we have to let them get into the swing of things with a trial, then if they have accomplished enough progress during this trial, we shall keep them on.

Alex, That particular value [ Mocha ] was a mistake apparently, but the Reporter was dealt with accordingly.

[GommeInc]

Some people don't bother reading the Newsletter, it would be more advisable to just put an annoucement in the Announcements Forum because people would read it then, but I have to admit, Rare Value Reporters are hard to find.

[Smiddy]

Some people don't bother reading the Newsletter, it would be more advisable to just put an annoucement in the Announcements Forum because people would read it then, but I have to admit, Rare Value Reporters are hard to find.
Yes i am aware you were / maybe still are Rare Valuse manager for GIhabbo ;)

And i've now provided a nice little Kick in my signature o.0

[GommeInc]

I gave up doing Rare Values and moved on to Rare Watch :P, mainly because it is more interesting to write about furni that how much it is actually worth.

[sierk]

I'm very happy with how the Rare Values pages are updated now. It's complete nonsense that we need to improve or anything like that, it's going very well, and that is why probably over 90% of people go by our values. All the values are very accurate.

Also there is no need to announce job openings I think, it clearly states on the Job Openings page that people who post good values are selected for a trial job. So applications are open all year long.

[Impactor]

I think the rare values are fine. Although, I hardly ever trade :p

[HolyWar]

I'm very happy with how the Rare Values pages are updated now. It's complete nonsense that we need to improve or anything like that, it's going very well, and that is why probably over 90% of people go by our values. All the values are very accurate.

Also there is no need to announce job openings I think, it clearly states on the Job Openings page that people who post good values are selected for a trial job. So applications are open all year long.

The reason that 90% of people use your values is based on the reputation that has been built over time. Habbox is a reference that most people are aware of and there is no disputing the fact that it's the most popular site for displaying rare values although it is not regarded as the most accurate.

Sierk, I don't mean to disrespect you as you're the owner of habbox but a statement of "It's complete nonsense that we need to improve anything" is hard to comprehend. There is always room for improvement and it's my opinion that it could be improved. I'm not directly suggesting that the values are rigged although I am suggesting that there is negligence, approximation and corruption in the rare values department. Yes, slowly the values have been getting better and that is only due to the RVR's input and has nothing to do with the upper management of Habbox.

Maybe someone would like to provide the full details of how they came to the conclusion of a rare values change in value when the next update takes place. Show the viewers of your site exactly how you came up with that value because I guarantee you that person is not doing it fairly and most likely see's 2 or 3 RVR's say that the Throne Sofa is now worth 4.2 and then it changes to 5 hcs. How are 2-3 peoples opinions changing the value of a rares prices? Why must you pass a "trial" in order for your input to be accepted? You must make a certain amount of posts in 1 week in order to maintain your status as an RVR when you should be happy to receive input from people for which they get nothing in return.

People can argue with me all they like saying " I don't know what I'm talking about " and that will be your opinion. When I was taking full advantage of the inconsistencies of Habbox values I was sometimes able to make 7-8 thrones in a day because your values were overpriced. I guess I knew nothing when I increased my worth from 12 thrones to around 200 thrones in a span of 2 months by fully utilizing the inconsistencies in the Habbox value listings.

All in all, what I'm really saying is that you need to implement math into your rare value calculations and you need to expand the circle of input you are receiving from people in order to make your values more accurate. When people do a test or a survery they ask 100-1,000,000 people for their opinon because they higher the number the more accurate the results are. Most updates on the Habbox rare page are based on the opinions of 2-3 people, how is that going to make a value accurate? Then Management disposes of users that they are in high demand of needing input from. I'm stating facts here and in order to argue with them you should fight me back with facts instead of opinions.

[Seacat]

Well you seem to have a lot to say, so why didn't you give all of your ideas to improve the Rare Value Department to Oggy or smiddy when you worked for them, I'm sure they would have been glad to hear them and it would have shown how much you are willing to contribute.

Instead you've decided to make a thread which criticizes people who put their trust in you to work for them and puts any other Manager off employing you in the future, I mean, what was to stop you becoming a RVR again in the future?

[HolyWar]

Well you seem to have a lot to say, so why didn't you give all of your ideas to improve the Rare Value Department to Oggy or smiddy when you worked for them, I'm sure they would have been glad to hear them and it would have shown how much you are willing to contribute.

Instead you've decided to make a thread which criticizes people who put their trust in you to work for them and puts any other Manager off employing you in the future, I mean, what was to stop you becoming a RVR again in the future?

Seacat, you make that statement as if you're hovering over my back watching what I am doing. How would you know wether or not I had made attempts to inform others of the inconsistencies in the values? This is something that I have been making known for quite some time and I was initially offered a position from Sierk based on my remarks regarding a "Broken stock market" type scenario.

I would no longer want to be an RVR in the future and believe me I am not bitter for being let go as there are many more complicated and trivial things in the world. I'm just voicing my opinion for anyone that wants to read it. If you play close attention to the statements I'm making you will see I am not criticizing individuals and I am only making remarks on how I feel the system is working.

[MazeWizard]

Whenever I post my Rare Values (although I'm not official staff), I always take averages and do the mathematical equasions :p (Yes, I use a calculator because I'm not that good with maths :p).

One of my standard Rare Value Reports would consist of The Furni in question, How much it changed, and then the most important part : The Proof.

The proof is the hardest part of the job if your just randomly posting rubbish values, but if you post values that are actually being used in Habbo it should be no problem.

For rare values proof, I usually take astleast 2-3 screenshots of trade rooms of habbos saying how much they are selling for etc, followed by a console message of how much people are buying this certain object for, etc.

Once I've collected some random samples and console screenshots, I usually then do an average and submit it in the Report Rare Values section :) I do my values as unbiased and accurate as possible :)

~MW

[HolyWar]

Whenever I post my Rare Values (although I'm not official staff), I always take averages and do the mathematical equasions :p (Yes, I use a calculator because I'm not that good with maths :p).

One of my standard Rare Value Reports would consist of The Furni in question, How much it changed, and then the most important part : The Proof.

The proof is the hardest part of the job if your just randomly posting rubbish values, but if you post values that are actually being used in Habbo it should be no problem.

For rare values proof, I usually take astleast 2-3 screenshots of trade rooms of habbos saying how much they are selling for etc, followed by a console message of how much people are buying this certain object for, etc.

Once I've collected some random samples and console screenshots, I usually then do an average and submit it in the Report Rare Values section :) I do my values as unbiased and accurate as possible :)

~MW


And that's the way you should be doing it. Then once all of those reports are submitted someone needs to sit down with a calculator the same way you have done and come up with the proper mathematical average. The values on the Habbox page are not calculated in that way. There is 1 person responsible for making the final change on the value page and that value is just a mere assumption of what the person feels is should be listed as based on skimming / briefly reading the reports of valuers, then coming up with their own average in their head based on the few reports they viewed.

Habbox is an unregulated stock market for Habbo Hotel. Sulake would probably never post official rare values because that could get them into trouble in the future considering the fact they like to claim that rares do not techincally have any value. If I am correct, I notice that official Habbo Fansites do not display values on their sites for what is probably a fairly complicated reason.

I personally think that people would be better off if there were no rare values to reference to. Common sense should control the market instead of Habbox.

[Evolution]

I'm very happy with how the Rare Values pages are updated now. It's complete nonsense that we need to improve or anything like that, it's going very well, and that is why probably over 90% of people go by our values. All the values are very accurate.

Also there is no need to announce job openings I think, it clearly states on the Job Openings page that people who post good values are selected for a trial job. So applications are open all year long.

Excuse me that's very stupid of you to say "It's complete nonsense that we need to improve or anything like that" ofcourse you need to improve, and with an attitude like that you're not going to get anywhere. 90%+ people use Habbox's rare values as not many others are even fully up, nor are they updated very often - however you cannot say Habbox doesn't influence the values at all.

I remember a while ago parasols took a very high increase like 1 purple parasol was a couple of thrones, everyone followed that, the next day Habbox lowered it again, it went down just like that.

Habbox rare values are most used but you can NEVER say there is nothing to improve, EVERYTHING on Habbox can be improved someway or another.

By the way, I agree with TheUnspoken.

[Carlos]

I dislike habbox and the way the do their values.

[Shadowrock!]

Why!!! we try very hard, im constantly doing over 40+ reports every week!!!!

DONT YOU DARE SAY WE DO OUR VALUES WRONG!

:| if you wanna do better than try, ull find out how hard it is!

[HolyWar]

There is too much influence on the market from Habbox. I guarantee you that if Habbox was not displaying values the Throne would not currently be trading for 20 hcs. When the general population of users see the throne go from 19 hcs to 19.1 they immediately start thinking that the rare is going up and will continue to offer more.

I am 100% sure that I myself was almost fully responsible for the throne beginning it's subsequent rise from 17 hcs to the 20 hcs that it climaxed at. The way I find that I was responsible for that I am not disclosing at this time although I will eventually tell people how I managed to do it.

Shadow, it's not very hard to make a post containing values and I know because I make alot of posts daily. The amount of posts people are making has no bearing on the values, firstly they need a higher amount of input to make calculations and the amount of input used to determine a rares value is currently very, very low.

If I am correct the Disco sign was placed on the rare values page within the first hour of it being released and that is definately not enough time to calculate what the value of it is. That one instance speaks for itself, everyone was going around trading them and the value was posted way to fast in order for it to have actually held an accurate value. The disco value was changed within minutes while I remember the DJ deck listed at 7 thrones for a few days and during those few days I was able to get them for 2-3 thrones so why was that one left at 7 thrones when the disco was changed quite rapidly. Should have been the other way around........

[Evolution]

Why!!! we try very hard, im constantly doing over 40+ reports every week!!!!

DONT YOU DARE SAY WE DO OUR VALUES WRONG!

:| if you wanna do better than try, ull find out how hard it is!

We can say whatever we want, thanks.

Some of the values are incorrect, some only just correct and some are way off.

FOR EXAMPLE:

http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?p=763702#post763702

Read the last few comments, decks arn't worth 2 T anymore.

[Shadowrock!]

omg

so just cuz a few ppl think our rares are wrong means we have to change it all?

the world doesent revolve around you!
we do have lives ourself. We have alot of work 2 do and we do it. We all reported that the dj deck was lower than 2T it wasnt changed.

We all report pretty much everything what you are all saying, but our values werent changed.

Show some respect to us for gods sake, We sit here doing jobs for YOU!

And all you ppl do is jobs that earn you money!

so dont go on about how lazy we are cuz we dont think your values are correct.

[HolyWar]

omg

so just cuz a few ppl think our rares are wrong means we have to change it all?

the world doesent revolve around you!
we do have lives ourself. We have alot of work 2 do and we do it. We all reported that the dj deck was lower than 2T it wasnt changed.

We all report pretty much everything what you are all saying, but our values werent changed.

Show some respect to us for gods sake, We sit here doing jobs for YOU!

And all you ppl do is jobs that earn you money!

so dont go on about how lazy we are cuz we dont think your values are correct.


Do you not understand that I have worked for the rare values department on 2 seperate occasions? Are you telling us to not voice our opinions? Who said anything about anyone being lazy? It's an issue of competence and respect and no one is personally blaming anyone for these events in this thread. Resolutions to problems are often made through debate and the pointing out of problems or inconsistencies. Why complain about what I or anyone else says when they are our opinions?

The department is not being managed to it's fullest capability. There are alot of unfair circumstances that affect other people where Habbox could've been more helpful by doing things in a different manner. If you ask me on my personal opinion, it would be that the whole rare value department of Habbox should be shut down for a certain amount of time to allow the values to be be determined by the general public instead of influenced by a fansite.

[Evolution]

omg

so just cuz a few ppl think our rares are wrong means we have to change it all?

the world doesent revolve around you!
we do have lives ourself. We have alot of work 2 do and we do it. We all reported that the dj deck was lower than 2T it wasnt changed.

Well then you obviously arn't listening to what people are saying - ITS HIGHER THAN 2 T, NOT LOWER. And if it wern't lowered (if it was going lower) even if you did report it to be, then that means SOMEONE isn't doing their job if it wasn't changed.



We all report pretty much everything what you are all saying, but our values werent changed.

Show some respect to us for gods sake, We sit here doing jobs for YOU!

And all you ppl do is jobs that earn you money!

so dont go on about how lazy we are cuz we dont think your values are correct.

Why should we respect you? What exactly do you do? Are you creating a cure for diseases? NO. You're sitting at a computer screen in trade rooms going
"OFFA ME 9.954873473757548483905005439.5 FOR MEH DUCKZ PLZ!111"

[Wizzdom]

to much to read :P

[GommeInc]

Actually the world would have to revolve around us, that's the whole point of the Trade Values to give "us" some information on how to trade and so on, if it didn't then why do the Trade Values exist? You have to be pretty bored to do that for fun (so to speak).

If you are not happy with your job then why do it? You don't seem very happy if you are complaining about us complaining, plus you have made no sense ShadowRock:


Show some respect to us for gods sake, We sit here doing jobs for YOU

we do have lives ourself. We have alot of work 2 do and we do it. We all reported that the dj deck was lower than 2T it wasnt changed.
So do you go outside and come back to report or do you work on the computer getting the values? That is what I am confused with in those two quotes, it seems you work alot but run your lives at the same time, I think you got a bit muddled.


And all you ppl do is jobs that earn you money!
I swear this was irrelevant.

[Kieeran]

I dont understand the .6789.1234 :s

[Shadowrock!]

We can say whatever we want, thanks.

Some of the values are incorrect, some only just correct and some are way off.

FOR EXAMPLE:

http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?p=763702#post763702

Read the last few comments, decks arn't worth 2 T anymore.



Thats pretty much saying that were lazy, and that we dont bother to update things.

And yes, ive worked in rare valueing for about 6-7 months now,

i dont want awards or furni or anything. its just the nice feeling i get when someone says, no its not. look on habbox.

and its like, omg yay i helped someone! =D

[Evolution]

Thats pretty much saying that were lazy, and that we dont bother to update things.

And yes, ive worked in rare valueing for about 6-7 months now,

i dont want awards or furni or anything. its just the nice feeling i get when someone says, no its not. look on habbox.

and its like, omg yay i helped someone! =D

Like omg yay, I went outside and saw real people!!!!!!! :O!!!!!

And why are YOU helping?

It's the Habbos that make the values, you just report on what WE SEE, WE TRADE AND WHAT WE DO - NOT YOU, YOU JUST REPORT ON IT.

[Shadowrock!]

Like omg yay, I went outside and saw real people!!!!!!! :O!!!!!


Completely off topic =\

[Shadowrock!]

Actually the world would have to revolve around us, that's the whole point of the Trade Values to give "us" some information on how to trade and so on, if it didn't then why do the Trade Values exist? You have to be pretty bored to do that for fun (so to speak).

If you are not happy with your job then why do it? You don't seem very happy if you are complaining about us complaining, plus you have made no sense ShadowRock:



So do you go outside and come back to report or do you work on the computer getting the values? That is what I am confused with in those two quotes, it seems you work alot but run your lives at the same time, I think you got a bit muddled.


I swear this was irrelevant.




i just think its unfair how some of you are sitting back And pretty much saying we do nothing... :( i know, some of our valuers are absent. The rest do try hard.

Its not our fault you disagree with the values, and we cant make everyone of you happy.



ps. double post - sorry, thought sum1 wud have replied

[HolyWar]

its just the nice feeling i get when someone says, no its not. look on habbox.

and its like, omg yay i helped someone! =D

Exactly my point and thanks for saying that Shadow because you are agreeing with us by making that statement above. Habbox is too much of an influence on the rare market. In the real world when comparing Habbox to a stock market * Which in essence it is a junior stock market for kids * sites like Habbox are closed down and fined for causing disruptions in the market.

Habbo would be better off with no rare values and I'm quite sure that Sulake would feel the same and doesn't like the fact that a site which they don't control has such a huge amount of control over THEIR RARE MARKET.

You don't even need to use a rare value page, it's there for those that simply lack the amount of common sense that some of us posess.

[GommeInc]

If I hinted you do nothing do excuse me, you do probably a hell of alot of work which need to reach the demands of the Habbo Public because Habbox is probably well known for its Forum and then secondly Trade Values.

All you need to do is find people who might want to work as a Trade Expert somehow...

[Carlos]

Its not our fault you disagree with the values, and we cant make everyone of you happy.

Read what this thread is even about for goodness sake.

[Shadowrock!]

and read some of the comments, not just on this thread but on the whole forum

everyone just moans about our rare values

on the post report values ive seen ppl saying that were bad values becuz the petal is worth 5hcs!

>.<


i cant be botherd argueing anymore

- not posting on this topic again -

[HolyWar]

I will credit Habbox for being a huge reason behind the "fortune" I managed to create because of their inflated rare values. When I used to make posts in the Rare value section I would even state when I managed to make 4-5 thrones that day from buying discos at 2 thrones because Habbox had them listed at that. I was buying them for 2 and selling to others for 4 thrones for around a week. Even after stating that in my reports the Disco never managed to reach a value of 4 thrones on the rare page and they remained at 2 thrones for over a week, so thanks to that I probably made around 20 thrones off buying discos for an incredily low price during that timespan.

[8Freak8]

I think it is obvious that Habbox affects the values in some way - that is bound to happen if so many people use it. In real life this happens to, which is why the economy and go out of control if the government don't try to control it with interest rates. I dont think anyone high up in Habbox would deny that.

Despite you saying we haven't made any improvments recently, we have actually changed the whole system. After the point of reporting values, most of the stuff has changed.

For example, we now have a PHP rare values system that I made. It allows people that sierk decides to update the values without having administration access to the whole site - like Cutenews does for reporters. Benifits include:

1). sierk no longer has to update the values, meaning that instead of them being updated maybe once every 3 days sometimes, they can be updated loads of times a day by Oggy.
2). Because it is done by PHP, a lot of the information can be updated automatically. For example, hovering your mouse over a specific rare shows when that individual rare was updated.
3). On the system we can select rares to show on the homepage if lots of people want one specific value. We figure that just as many people come to Habbox for its values, as it's news, so why not have both on the homepage?
4). Comments can be added on each rare to say things like the DJ Decks did like "This rare value has dropped a lot because there is a rumour it is coming out in the catalogue.
5). We can advertise good rare trade rooms.
6). Loads of other things that I just can't think of.

We were discussing the RV department the other day, and were saying that it makes a nice change the have rare trade rooms and furni shops advising people to use our values. There are also very few complaints at the moment, compared to what there used to be.

This is what sierk means by "it's nonsense blah blah". We have made loads of improvments recently, and people seem to be fine with everything at the moment.

[Smiddy]

I personally dnt have any Regrets over any actions i take in the Rare values departments, as i feel they have all been beneficial.

The majority of this thread has now turned into an outburst of anguish, and i'm fine with that, but when you consider That most of the official fansites [ if not all of them ] Dnt have a Rare Values Chart, it makes you wonder does it not?

Now, im not 1 to argue, and this will be no exception, because it has made me laugh.
I haven't seen 1 good point come out of it until 8freak8's last post. [ tht's including my own ]

If you want us to improve, you give us some ideas then, we're not super humans, we're average peopel like everyone else on this forum