Labour betrayed its most loyal working-class supporters. And it doesn't even care.

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/michaelheaver/100216882/labour-betrayed-its-most-loyal-working-class-supporters-and-it-doesnt-even-care/

Labour betrayed its most loyal working-class supporters. And it doesn't even care


http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2013/05/mandelson_2326115b.jpg


Lord Mandelson’s horrifying admission that the Labour Party “sent out search parties” to ensure a wave of migration came to Britain is surely one of the most devastating revelations in the history of that party.

After all, Labour was set up as a party for the ordinary British working man – the blue-collar grafter. Linked to trade unions, it was meant to fight for the very people who are now taking the brunt of the pain caused by mass open-door immigration.

It is a truly wretched legacy. Think about it. New Labour in government essentially embarked upon a policy of giving up on the prosperity and life chances of their own citizens in favour of an opportunistic project to change the make-up of Britain. The outcome is that in the first year of the Coalition, out of 181,000 extra people of working age who found work, only 14,000 were British nationals.

Frequently this has been defended as some sort of necessity. Cries of indignation go up when Nigel Farage talks of taking back control of our borders. Who would work the tough jobs that Eastern Europeans now do, they ask. The answer: those who did them 20 years ago. The British working class who depended on their own work ethic rather than government handouts. Labour itself became dependent on a cheap influx of foreign labour, neglecting the needs of its own supporters for proper apprenticeships, jobs and training.

Bizarrely, the trade unions followed the new Left-wing dogma. They agreed that to give British people a chance to get on the jobs ladder before we let in a controlled number of migrants was bad, mad and xenophobic. It was now heresy to want border controls of the sort operated to perfectly reasonable and functioning countries such as Australia.

The appalling part of all of this is that despite the platitudes, quiet apologies and unconvincing regret, the Labour Party hasn’t actually proposed anything to change this out-of-control system. Nor for that matter have the Conservatives: they remain in favour of open borders with the EU, including Romania and Bulgaria.

I remain unconvinced that the likes of Lord Mandelson even regret what they did. For wealthy men, open-door immigration means cheap hard-working labour at their beck and call in hotels and restaurants across the country. And what about those who voted Labour believing that the party would look out for them? Fortunately for Mandelson, perhaps, he's very unlikely to bump in to them in the course of his social whirl.

The damage and just what Labour did to this country over the past decade with uncontrolled immigration (which continues to this day under what was the 'opposition') I can never forgive. Luckily I don't have to live in an area which has foreign shops, everybody talking a different language but my own, covering themselves in head to toe with foreign clothing - but hundreds of thousands, even millions have to - that's why increasingly people are getting out (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2320002/How-rise-white-flight-areas-dominated-ethnic-minorities-creating-segregated-UK.html).

Does it make me a bad person, a waycist or a bigot to say that in my own country I want to feel i'm actually in Britain rather than Somalia, Nigeria, Poland or Arabia? what always amazes me is that the people who say that people like me (the vast majority of us) are racists, small minded or bigoted and should instead value 'diversity' (a word meaning every culture is essentially equal to your own when you know its not) - none of the people who say any of that are the people trapped in areas which have been completely ghettoised.

Too controversial? all I want is a sensible immigration policy which limits numbers to the 50,000 a year mark (and skilled labour only) which ensures people can integrate with the home culture rather than do the opposite and overwhelm it.

Now does anybody disagree with that? because to me thats just common sense.

Thoughts?

[FlyingJesus]

There's not a single town or city in Britain where being white British is the minority - Leicester is coming extremely close but even so if 50% of people around were white Brits and the rest spread throughout the various other ethnicities and nationalities then you're still not going to be in a place where "everybody" is talking a different language and god forbid not wearing a tweed suit. Even if that was ever the case, their private conversations are not your property and whatever any sensationalists suggest we aren't going to lose English as our national language; if anything it's fantastic that the language gets added to as it has done ever since its conception when the first line of the Lord's Prayer translates as "Fæder ūre þū þe eart on heofonum". We are not an unchanging country, we have never been an unchanging country, and we should never aspire to be an unchanging country.

And yes, if having 0.8% of the population presenting as "black African" makes you feel like you're in Somalia or Nigeria then you probably are a racist. You're also totally off track if you think that no white people living in "ghetto" areas are against racism.

Also your sig image should say "whose"

[-:Undertaker:-]

There's not a single town or city in Britain where being white British is the minority - Leicester is coming extremely close but even so if 50% of people around were white Brits and the rest spread throughout the various other ethnicities and nationalities then you're still not going to be in a place where "everybody" is talking a different language and god forbid not wearing a tweed suit. Even if that was ever the case, their private conversations are not your property and whatever any sensationalists suggest we aren't going to lose English as our national language; if anything it's fantastic that the language gets added to as it has done ever since its conception when the first line of the Lord's Prayer translates as "Fæder ūre þū þe eart on heofonum". We are not an unchanging country, we have never been an unchanging country, and we should never aspire to be an unchanging country.

And yes, if having 0.8% of the population presenting as "black African" makes you feel like you're in Somalia or Nigeria then you probably are a racist. You're also totally off track if you think that no white people living in "ghetto" areas are against racism.

Also your sig image should say "whose"

I never mentioned race and race isn't anything to do with it, which goes to show your way over your head here. Multiculturalism isn't multiracialism.

But for all of your love of 'diversity' ie, people speaking different languages around you and all the British shops closing and being replaced entirely by foreign ones - you live in the little town of Worthing, which is about as far removed from 'diversity' as you can get.

Strange that, eh isn't it? that the people who live among the growing cultural ghettos want to get out (well, those who can afford to can) whereas middle class liberals such as yourself (who also live in middle class areas unaffected badly by mass immigration) say that its just wonderful how our cities and towns are changing beyond recongnition.


We are not an unchanging country, we have never been an unchanging country, and we should never aspire to be an unchanging country.

I heard something along the lines that in 2010, more people came to the United Kingdom in that single year than came between 1066 and 1950 - that isn't change, thats being completely and utterly swamped just as past cultures in South and North America have been. Why is is that we strive to protect cultures in the Amazon and so on, but feel ashamed of our own and seemingly want it to be taken over or severely influenced by other cultures? it's like Powell said - watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre.

Mass immigration and integration are totally failing, yet you simply say bring more in - madness.

[FlyingJesus]

I never mentioned race and race isn't anything to do with it, which goes to show your way over your head here. Multiculturalism isn't multiracialism.

If you somehow believe that issues of immigration have nothing to do with race then you are the one in over your head. Race and culture clearly aren't the same thing but the two do largely go hand in hand, and regardless of that my entire point with the segment that you quoted is even more relevant if you only want to talk about culture since the disparity between people you think are normal and people you think are custom-hating defilers of morality and identity is even bigger than the gap between various races.


But for all of your love of 'diversity' ie, people speaking different languages around you and all the British shops closing and being replaced entirely by foreign ones - you live in the little town of Worthing, which is about as far removed from 'diversity' as you can get.

I love how you're saying that my opinion is invalid due to the circumstances of my birth, ad homs are great.


Strange that, eh isn't it? that the people who live among the growing cultural ghettos want to get out (well, those who can afford to can)

Yes, people in poor areas (which many ghettos are) tend to not want to be poor and move elsewhere if they get money. That is not the same thing as not wanting to live next to someone with *gasp* a different lifestyle which doesn't actively affect them at all.


whereas middle class liberals such as yourself (who also live in middle class areas unaffected badly by mass immigration) say that its just wonderful how our cities and towns are changing beyond recongnition.

How dare I have an opinion on something that doesn't hugely influence my own life gosh what a terrible person I must be. I notice you also stated that you don't live in such an area, so is your opinion magically invalid too or does that argument only work if someone doesn't agree with you?


I heard something along the lines that in 2010, more people came to the United Kingdom in that single year than came between 1066 and 1950 - that isn't change, thats being completely and utterly swamped just as past cultures in South and North America have been.

I'm pretty sure that is change


Why is is that we strive to protect cultures in the Amazon and so on, but feel ashamed of our own and seemingly want it to be taken over or severely influenced by other cultures? it's like Powell said - watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre.

Protecting people from actual extinction through unlawful invasion and exploitation is not the same as saying that you don't want people to have certain thoughts, words, and clothes just because it wasn't the case in the past. Feel free to come up with an actual point other than WE WON'T BE ENGLAND ANY MORE!!!!!! if you ever want to


Mass immigration and integration are totally failing, yet you simply say bring more in - madness.

No I'm saying that I don't think people are inherently less worthy of life just because they don't sing Christian hymns and drink Bombardier.

[-:Undertaker:-]

If you somehow believe that issues of immigration have nothing to do with race then you are the one in over your head. Race and culture clearly aren't the same thing but the two do largely go hand in hand, and regardless of that my entire point with the segment that you quoted is even more relevant if you only want to talk about culture since the disparity between people you think are normal and people you think are custom-hating defilers of morality and identity is even bigger than the gap between various races.

Of course they correlate, but you'd only be able to call me a racist if skin colour was my concern in regards to immigration. I don't care about skin colour - hence why I find the current immigration laws which allows any Europeans to move here freely (despite skill) unfair when compared with laws on Commonwealtnh countries of which are mostly black.

When I discuss immigration, debate me on multiculturalism which is my point rather than the straw man of multiracialism.

I mean, do you even understand how a nation comes into being and is defined? borders aren't relics of the past, they are cultural frontiers.


I love how you're saying that my opinion is invalid due to the circumstances of my birth, ad homs are great.

I think a lot of it is to do with being out of touch, yes. I mean for example, earlier on down in this passage or earlier you stated it didn't really matter whether people around me are wearing western styled clothes, talking the national language or the streets are lined with foreigns shops - being located in Worthing, you don't have to worry about any of that (despite how great you proclaim it to be) but let me tell you; a heck of a lot of people feel completely alienated in areas they and their families have called home for decades.

But you, like the isolated political class living in the likes of Windsor don't give a damn what people think do you?


Yes, people in poor areas (which many ghettos are) tend to not want to be poor and move elsewhere if they get money. That is not the same thing as not wanting to live next to someone with *gasp* a different lifestyle which doesn't actively affect them at all.

When people pick a place to live, they usually choose somewhere they can relate to - thats the reason why I wouldn't want to emigrate to say Spain because I prefer the lifestyle and culture of this country. I like our Victorian houses, I like the fact that I can talk with people in my own language (a sense of community) and I like the fact that women aren't hidden under Islamic dresses which I frankly find oppressive and rather scary looking. I like Britain as b being culturally British, with a broad monoculture that makes the whole thing work.

Thats what I like, as I would guess do the majority of people. Why should areas of London and parts of our cities become mini-Somalias, mini-Nigerias and mini-Polands? is it not better that they integrate with the home culture rather than stay seperate?


How dare I have an opinion on something that doesn't hugely influence my own life gosh what a terrible person I must be. I notice you also stated that you don't live in such an area, so is your opinion magically invalid too or does that argument only work if someone doesn't agree with you?

I'm not advocating your position dear.


I'm pretty sure that is change

And when was consent by the British people given for this extreme change? I don't recall being asked.


Protecting people from actual extinction through unlawful invasion and exploitation is not the same as saying that you don't want people to have certain thoughts, words, and clothes just because it wasn't the case in the past. Feel free to come up with an actual point other than WE WON'T BE ENGLAND ANY MORE!!!!!! if you ever want to

I could easily make a case against mass immigration based on infrastructure and unemployment costs, but I think the cultural side is much more important. If people do not integrate (and their not being given the chance due to the sheer numbers arriving year on year) then you end up with different sects of people not talking to others and entire communities split based on cultural and sometimes even ethnic lines - why is this a good thing Tom? I can't work out the logic.

Tell me Tom, do you think the borders should be totally opened up even more so than now? or ought there to be limits like I suggest?


No I'm saying that I don't think people are inherently less worthy of life just because they don't sing Christian hymns and drink Bombardier.

Oh dear, making the argument up as you go along again. I never said anyone was less worthy of life now, did I?

[AgnesIO]

covering themselves in head to toe with foreign clothing

Ok I get that you have strong views on immigration.. but foreign CLOTHING? I mean get real, half of the things we do are American not British - where is your tirade about the American's destroying our culture? I couldn't care if people were mad enough to wear a saree here for example (mind you, you'd have to be pretty stupid, given the thin fabrics), and to be honest, if somebody wants to wear a turban, let them. The only dress I disagree with is the burqa - firstly for security reasons (can't wear a hoody, but can wear a burqa), and also I feel the entire point in wearing them is for the men's benefit, not the women's.

ITALIAN food, CHINESE food, INDIAN food, NEPALI food, SPANISH food - they are evidently not British, yet I bet you enjoy at least one of those. Or do you stick to fish and chips (ironically, almost certainly Chinese owned)?

Sorry, but I really really really cannot see your logic this time. Normally I can at least see where you are coming from, but this is quite simply idiotic..

[-:Undertaker:-]

Ok I get that you have strong views on immigration.. but foreign CLOTHING? I mean get real, half of the things we do are American not British - where is your tirade about the American's destroying our culture? I couldn't care if people were mad enough to wear a saree here for example (mind you, you'd have to be pretty stupid, given the thin fabrics), and to be honest, if somebody wants to wear a turban, let them. The only dress I disagree with is the burqa - firstly for security reasons (can't wear a hoody, but can wear a burqa), and also I feel the entire point in wearing them is for the men's benefit, not the women's.

ITALIAN food, CHINESE food, INDIAN food, NEPALI food, SPANISH food - they are evidently not British, yet I bet you enjoy at least one of those. Or do you stick to fish and chips (ironically, almost certainly Chinese owned)?

Sorry, but I really really really cannot see your logic this time. Normally I can at least see where you are coming from, but this is quite simply idiotic..

And you also simply don't get it either. I'm not saying everything not British is bad - I love different restaurants, Indian and Chinese being my favourites. The point is, areas where you get ALL the women walking around in burkas, nobody speaking English and entire roads devoted to certain countries shops (segregation) - that's my problem.

I wouldn't like to live in an area that contains hardly any culturally British people where on the one hand you've got people walking around 99% in the south of the town in turbans, sweeping veils and all talking Indian - same as I wouldn't like the other half of the town crammed full of just Polish shops and people speaking Polish. If I had to live amongst that, it'd alienate me.

It isn't all just about me and what culturally British (usually the working class) people think anyway. It's also the immigrants themselves. The fact that we allow such numbers to come in means that they'll naturally form their own ghettos and areas where there's simply no need to integrate (learn the language, send the children to a British state school) and I think thats' rather sad - as well as the fact that it forms an identity crisis in many of the youngers ones heads where they're confused exactly what they are and feel completely alienated from the wider society and country that they live in.

I am the one on the side of people coming to this country - I want them to feel and be as British as I am. But the policy of totally uncontrolled mass immigration into this country makes that virtually impossible. Multiculturalism as a doctrine has failed, integration ought to be the new path to follow.

[Adam]

Can we not go back to the stone age? Things were much simpler back then.

[FlyingJesus]

Of course they correlate, but you'd only be able to call me a racist if skin colour was my concern in regards to immigration. I don't care about skin colour - hence why I find the current immigration laws which allows any Europeans to move here freely (despite skill) unfair when compared with laws on Commonwealtnh countries of which are mostly black.

When I discuss immigration, debate me on multiculturalism which is my point rather than the straw man of multiracialism.

I did mention cultural differences, in fact I very clearly stated that it's even more of a disparity if that's all you want to focus on. Try again


I mean, do you even understand how a nation comes into being and is defined? borders aren't relics of the past, they are cultural frontiers.

No I'm pretty sure they're geographical areas of law. I can't think of any time in all of history when everyone in a country has had identical views and actions, and even between households there are differences. Regardless, you're again missing the point that cultures do adopt and adapt from everywhere constantly.


I think a lot of it is to do with being out of touch, yes. I mean for example, earlier on down in this passage or earlier you stated it didn't really matter whether people around me are wearing western styled clothes, talking the national language or the streets are lined with foreigns shops - being located in Worthing, you don't have to worry about any of that (despite how great you proclaim it to be) but let me tell you; a heck of a lot of people feel completely alienated in areas they and their families have called home for decades.

But you, like the isolated political class living in the likes of Windsor don't give a damn what people think do you?

Yeah you're totally right I don't care at all what people think (I am not a people of course, thanks for that) and have totally never left Worthing. Not once. I've also never in my life spoken to anyone living in a multicultural area. Ever ever ever.


When people pick a place to live, they usually choose somewhere they can relate to - thats the reason why I wouldn't want to emigrate to say Spain because I prefer the lifestyle and culture of this country.

Or, if they're poor, they pick a place they can afford. For someone pretending to have knowledge of these areas you really don't seem to know anything at all about how they come about.


I like our Victorian houses, I like the fact that I can talk with people in my own language (a sense of community) and I like the fact that women aren't hidden under Islamic dresses which I frankly find oppressive and rather scary looking. I like Britain as b being culturally British, with a broad monoculture that makes the whole thing work.

My house is post-war, damn I must be a dirty foreigner. The language thing has already been covered as you don't have a right to anyone's private conversation and in no area of Britain is it difficult to find someone who speaks English if you absolutely must stop for a conversation with a stranger. The "oppressive" dress of Islamic women is anything but, as you might know if you'd ever actually looked into it rather than just thinking WOW WE DON'T DO THAT HERE IT MUST BE TERRIBLE, and ok I don't like the look of fat and ugly people or anyone with beards, let's deport them too as that's apparently a good argument. Britain has never been a monoculture, the entire country is made up of everything we've stolen or had forced upon us in our long history and to suggest otherwise is simply ignorant of what is frankly a rich and very interesting history which is still evolving to this day.


Thats what I like, as I would guess do the majority of people. Why should areas of London and parts of our cities become mini-Somalias, mini-Nigerias and mini-Polands? is it not better that they integrate with the home culture rather than stay seperate?

Yeah how dare people act as they like we should have laws saying that you have send your children to the workhouses and become cheap cannon-fodder in frontline military invasions since those are staple parts of that Victorian culture you love so much. Oh wait, we're not allowed to talk about the bad bits are we? Nice "guess" on what the majority wants too, the mark of a true politician there


I'm not advocating your position dear.

That doesn't even make sense so ok


And when was consent by the British people given for this extreme change? I don't recall being asked.

I don't recall Harold Godwinson saying that Duke Guillaume could come and take over as king. I don't recall a referendum on the spice import. I don't recall fashions being voted on by the public. Cultural change is not something that you as an individual choose - you can choose not to take part, but you can't tell other people that it's bad just because you don't like it


I could easily make a case against mass immigration based on infrastructure and unemployment costs, but I think the cultural side is much more important. If people do not integrate (and their not being given the chance due to the sheer numbers arriving year on year) then you end up with different sects of people not talking to others and entire communities split based on cultural and sometimes even ethnic lines - why is this a good thing Tom? I can't work out the logic.

Why is it a particularly bad thing? I'm not sure if you've noticed but the British public are pretty stand-offish as it is with no-on interacting with each other on the streets unless they have prior knowledge of each other or are trying to buy/sell something. It might also do you some good to look into subcultures and cliques, or even perhaps tribal natures, as the human species is not naturally metropolitan and splits itself up in several millions of ways that I don't see you complaining about


Tell me Tom, do you think the borders should be totally opened up even more so than now? or ought there to be limits like I suggest?

I have at no point said that borders should be opened up entirely, nor the opposite. It's your ridiculous premises that I'm arguing against rather than the conclusion. Before you ask it, yes that does matter

[QUOTE=-:Undertaker:-;7903639]Oh dear, making the argument up as you go along again. I never said anyone was less worthy of life now, did I?

No but you are saying that people shouldn't be allowed to live in certain ways (that don't contradict any laws) simply because of where settle, which amounts to near enough the same thing as you'd force people to either act against their will or be ejected from their homes. I don't really follow any traditional British customs other than language and standing in queues at shops, should I be deported too in case I corrupt those around me?

[-:Undertaker:-]

I did mention cultural differences, in fact I very clearly stated that it's even more of a disparity if that's all you want to focus on. Try again

So why are you mentioning race? I didn't feel the need to mention it, why did you? to smear, thats why.


No I'm pretty sure they're geographical areas of law. I can't think of any time in all of history when everyone in a country has had identical views and actions, and even between households there are differences. Regardless, you're again missing the point that cultures do adopt and adapt from everywhere constantly.

Oh dear, completely wrong. Borders are not simply 'geographical areas of law' - what is law shaped by Tom? it's shaped by a culture - the religion, its morality, its shared values and beliefs. If areas where simply areas of law and political authority, then they would have no problem merging into one another. Yet, if you are sensible you realise that Saudi Arabia and Britain cannot be under the same legal and political system because the cultures, beliefs, religion and shared values are so different to one another.


Yeah you're totally right I don't care at all what people think (I am not a people of course, thanks for that) and have totally never left Worthing. Not once. I've also never in my life spoken to anyone living in a multicultural area. Ever ever ever.

Some people may love it, sure. A lot don't like living in areas where women are wearing heavy veils, where men stare and where everybody is speaking in a different language other than your own. It alienates people. Do you 'get' that?


Or, if they're poor, they pick a place they can afford. For someone pretending to have knowledge of these areas you really don't seem to know anything at all about how they come about.

How about some concern for people who have lived in areas all their lives which have now changed beyond belief?


My house is post-war, damn I must be a dirty foreigner. The language thing has already been covered as you don't have a right to anyone's private conversation and in no area of Britain is it difficult to find someone who speaks English if you absolutely must stop for a conversation with a stranger. The "oppressive" dress of Islamic women is anything but, as you might know if you'd ever actually looked into it rather than just thinking WOW WE DON'T DO THAT HERE IT MUST BE TERRIBLE, and ok I don't like the look of fat and ugly people or anyone with beards, let's deport them too as that's apparently a good argument. Britain has never been a monoculture, the entire country is made up of everything we've stolen or had forced upon us in our long history and to suggest otherwise is simply ignorant of what is frankly a rich and very interesting history which is still evolving to this day.

The country did and does have a monoculture. Did we have large areas back in the pre-war era where people didn't speak English and kept mostly to themselves? did we have local government being so pandering that benefit and welfare forms are now printed in various languages? no, we didn't - because the mantra was you can come here but you have to become a part of the society.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QYCTDXq56w

Thats a normal person talking, somebody who is half Polish. She understands, why don't you?


Yeah how dare people act as they like we should have laws saying that you have send your children to the workhouses and become cheap cannon-fodder in frontline military invasions since those are staple parts of that Victorian culture you love so much. Oh wait, we're not allowed to talk about the bad bits are we? Nice "guess" on what the majority wants too, the mark of a true politician there

Yes I do know what the majority of people are thinking as I look at the polls dear, thats why immigration ranks as one of the top issues next to the economy as a concern for people - and thats why 'white flight' is taking place in many inner-city areas.

I don't know how to explain it more simple than this really - people like living amongst their own kind. When I say own kind, I don't mean race - I mean living amongst neighbours that you can chat over the garden fence to. Being able to talk to shop keepers in your own language, to people on the bus. That sort of thing, you know, a community.

It's this ignorant and out of touch attitude that you are displaying that is the reason why many turn to extreme parties (the BNP) in areas like this - because all of their concerns about being alienated and utterly swamped in their own home are simply dismissed by people like you and the political class as being 'bigoted' or 'in the past'. I happen to think community and a sense of nationhood isn't in the past.


I don't recall Harold Godwinson saying that Duke Guillaume could come and take over as king. I don't recall a referendum on the spice import. I don't recall fashions being voted on by the public. Cultural change is not something that you as an individual choose - you can choose not to take part, but you can't tell other people that it's bad just because you don't like it

Immigration however is something that ought to be decided by the public and as its something that affects cutural change, it ought to be taken into account. Today we are a functioning democracy and nation state that ought to require consent for people coming to settle here - the fact you are using invasions from 1066 to justify immigration speaks for itself.


Why is it a particularly bad thing? I'm not sure if you've noticed but the British public are pretty stand-offish as it is with no-on interacting with each other on the streets unless they have prior knowledge of each other or are trying to buy/sell something. It might also do you some good to look into subcultures and cliques, or even perhaps tribal natures, as the human species is not naturally metropolitan and splits itself up in several millions of ways that I don't see you complaining about

Then obviously you're not getting out more, I live within the city and i'll often chat with people or shopkeepers (in my own language, cos thats how ya like talk to people yeah?) or even smile as people walk past. I'll be posting an interesting account in this forum after i've replied to this detailing somebody who feels alienated where they live, it'd be interesting to see what you make of it.

Or maybe you'll just reply arrogantly, whilst sitting in multicultural Worthing, with a 'get over it, change happens'.


I have at no point said that borders should be opened up entirely, nor the opposite. It's your ridiculous premises that I'm arguing against rather than the conclusion. Before you ask it, yes that does matter

So immigration should be cut down or not? it's a simple question.


No but you are saying that people shouldn't be allowed to live in certain ways (that don't contradict any laws) simply because of where settle, which amounts to near enough the same thing as you'd force people to either act against their will or be ejected from their homes. I don't really follow any traditional British customs other than language and standing in queues at shops, should I be deported too in case I corrupt those around me?

I didn't say i'd impose laws to stop people living in certain ways, I make the case that immigration should be controlled in small numbers so what it encourages people indirectly to adopt and integrate with the home culture of Britain.

Now is that outlandish and too hard to understand? or is that what most nations around the world want and encourage?

[FlyingJesus]

So why are you mentioning race? I didn't feel the need to mention it, why did you? to smear, thats why.

Do you just choose not to read things that you don't like? It's been stated again and again that race and culture do correlate (which even you agreed on) and it's only still coming up because you decided that race has "nothing to do with it" when it very clearly does. It's nothing to do with smears, I'll leave that to you with your "white Worthing" nonsense


Oh dear, completely wrong. Borders are not simply 'geographical areas of law'

Yes they are


what is law shaped by Tom? it's shaped by a culture - the religion, its morality, its shared values and beliefs. If areas where simply areas of law and political authority, then they would have no problem merging into one another. Yet, if you are sensible you realise that Saudi Arabia and Britain cannot be under the same legal and political system because the cultures, beliefs, religion and shared values are so different to one another.

No-one's suggesting that they should be, and no-one's suggesting that we change any laws to accommodate for immigrants. If people wish to act in certain "different" ways that's fine, as long as they keep it within the law


Some people may love it, sure. A lot don't like living in areas where women are wearing heavy veils, where men stare and where everybody is speaking in a different language other than your own. It alienates people. Do you 'get' that?

A lot of people don't like cars, a lot of people don't like men, a lot of people don't like meat, a lot of people don't like going outside. I feel alienated if I see a group of muscular gentlemen in tight vests but I don't try telling them to change their life to suit me. Yes I get that some people are unaccepting of others, no I don't think that should be basis for law


How about some concern for people who have lived in areas all their lives which have now changed beyond belief?

BAN CHANGE. INNOVATION AND ADAPTATION ARE SINS. I think you should read Brave New World you'd like it; everyone is the same and new things aren't allowed in case they upset people


The country did and does have a monoculture. Did we have large areas back in the pre-war era where people didn't speak English and kept mostly to themselves?

Yes


did we have local government being so pandering that benefit and welfare forms are now printed in various languages? no, we didn't - because the mantra was you can come here but you have to become a part of the society.

No, because we didn't have socialist governments. I'm far from a fan of socialism but you can't compare two forms of governance and act surprised that things are different




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QYCTDXq56w

Thats a normal person talking, somebody who is half Polish. She understands, why don't you?

People illegally camping on her land I don't agree with, but that's an issue of law-breaking. The rest is baseless overexaggeration ("hardly any locals") or again not actually anything to do with immigration - hospitals being understaffed in a town that's grown by nearly 16% overall population in the last 10 years is funnily enough a problem of people not adapting to change ;)


Yes I do know what the majority of people are thinking as I look at the polls dear, thats why immigration ranks as one of the top issues next to the economy as a concern for people - and thats why 'white flight' is taking place in many inner-city areas.

These are polls that everyone in the entire country has entered into right? As opposed to tiny selections taken mostly by people who have strong opinions on the matters in the first place?


I don't know how to explain it more simple than this really - people like living amongst their own kind. When I say own kind, I don't mean race - I mean living amongst neighbours that you can chat over the garden fence to. Being able to talk to shop keepers in your own language, to people on the bus. That sort of thing, you know, a community.

Yeah that's especially noticeable with the millions of inner-city dwellers who don't even know their neighbours and don't care what they do as long as they keep the noise down


It's this ignorant and out of touch attitude that you are displaying that is the reason why many turn to extreme parties (the BNP) in areas like this - because all of their concerns about being alienated and utterly swamped in their own home are simply dismissed by people like you and the political class as being 'bigoted' or 'in the past'. I happen to think community and a sense of nationhood isn't in the past.

Then embrace the growing community and understand that our nationhood is built up of the everything we've taken from the world. I hardly think acceptance of peoples' lifestyles is an ignorant and out of touch attitude, whereas gung-ho "keep 'em out" attitudes certainly are


Immigration however is something that ought to be decided by the public and as its something that affects cutural change, it ought to be taken into account. Today we are a functioning democracy and nation state that ought to require consent for people coming to settle here - the fact you are using invasions from 1066 to justify immigration speaks for itself.

Yeah how dare I use history to talk about what kind of country we are, only you are allowed to do that I apologise


Then obviously you're not getting out more, I live within the city and i'll often chat with people or shopkeepers (in my own language, cos thats how ya like talk to people yeah?) or even smile as people walk past. I'll be posting an interesting account in this forum after i've replied to this detailing somebody who feels alienated where they live, it'd be interesting to see what you make of it.

"or are trying to buy/sell something". If you stop a random person on the street and try to strike up a conversation chances are they'll go home and tell their family about the weirdo pretending to be their friend


Or maybe you'll just reply arrogantly, whilst sitting in multicultural Worthing, with a 'get over it, change happens'.

Yeah maybe, or perhaps I'll instead respond with logic and reason as I have done all along rather than lie about the nation's past, suggest that not fitting in is a crime, and pretend I speak for the entire country on matters that are hugely divided


So immigration should be cut down or not? it's a simple question.

I believe there ought to be more stringent regulation on it, yes, but it's your method of coming to that conclusion that I find unjustified rather than the conclusion itself, as I said before. It's an extremely important distinction because doing something right for the wrong reasons allows for wrongdoing in the future in the name of those falsities


I didn't say i'd impose laws to stop people living in certain ways, I make the case that immigration should be controlled in small numbers so what it encourages people indirectly to adopt and integrate with the home culture of Britain.

Now is that outlandish and too hard to understand? or is that what most nations around the world want and encourage?

Actually I think most nations are probably too poor to care what you do in your spare time as long as you bring money in and don't break the law

[AgnesIO]

In response to Dan, no one is disputing whether immigration should be more controlled.

However I personally disagree it should be completely stopped...

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