Brits are now poorer than the French, Swiss, Belgians, Swedes, Austrians, Aussies...

[Ardemax]

... and Canadians. BUT AT LEAST WE'RE NOT IN A TRIPLE-DIP RECESSION WOO :cheers::cheers::cheers:

http://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/yanofsky_household-income-oecd_002.png?w=1024&h=807

Source (and more): http://qz.com/84658/uk-household-income/

Thoughts?

[Chippiewill]

Change in rankings is likely to occur a lot over such time periods, the study doesn't really help it self by drawing a graph with two data points and hoping to draw a correlation from it.

[dbgtz]

Doesn't show quality of life plus I'm sure other sources state otherwise, plus this graph is flat... I don't really think the figures are right lol.

[Kardan]

Three things:

We've fallen to 12th in the world, hardly anything to panic over.
Secondly, why is the end of the graph 2011? Have they only just released the data for 2011, or is this old?
Thirdly, according to that graph household income has gone up since 2005 (although I'd imagine if the graph didn't interpolate between the two points, we'd see a rise up till about 2008 and then a fall back down to now).

[Mark]

Did they not revise the figures and the infamous 'double-dip recession' didn't happen?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Not good enough to be 12th or 6th in the top economies ranking. Britain, a world power only as far back as our grandparents age (and still a Great power) ought to be aiming to be in the very top grouping - certainly ahead of France and Germany. In 2000 we were the fourth top economy in the world and now we've sunken to sixth/seventh.

A lot of things are to blame, EU membership for example restricting our ability as a financial world power to trade properly with Eastern nations is a part of it - but not everything because as you can see, other countries in the EU are ahead of us. It goes right back to education, work ethic & morality, welfarism - everything. The country is in dire need of a complete overhaul, especially with the rising East - because Britain teaching drama, photography, trave & tourism and art in its terrible state comprehensive schools isn't going to match up to Chinese students (who greatly outnumber us) who are learning the sciences, maths, history and economics.

Sink or swim, and boy are we sinking.

[Zak]

because Britain teaching drama, photography, trave & tourism and art in its terrible state comprehensive schools isn't going to match up to Chinese students (who greatly outnumber us) who are learning the sciences, maths, history and economics.

You read my frickin' mind! +rep

[Adam]

**** get me the adverts showing on Nigerian TV to give us money every month.

[Ardemax]

Not good enough to be 12th or 6th in the top economies ranking. Britain, a world power only as far back as our grandparents age (and still a Great power) ought to be aiming to be in the very top grouping - certainly ahead of France and Germany. In 2000 we were the fourth top economy in the world and now we've sunken to sixth/seventh.

A lot of things are to blame, EU membership for example restricting our ability as a financial world power to trade properly with Eastern nations is a part of it - but not everything because as you can see, other countries in the EU are ahead of us. It goes right back to education, work ethic & morality, welfarism - everything. The country is in dire need of a complete overhaul, especially with the rising East - because Britain teaching drama, photography, trave & tourism and art in its terrible state comprehensive schools isn't going to match up to Chinese students (who greatly outnumber us) who are learning the sciences, maths, history and economics.

Sink or swim, and boy are we sinking.

I completely agree with your point about our education system.

A lot of schools nowadays will gladly hand out pointless BTEC courses to students and consider them another success story. Only to find out in five years time that they *surprisingly* have been living on the dole... for the past five years.

Something's got to change.

[Kardan]

I completely agree with your point about our education system.

A lot of schools nowadays will gladly hand out pointless BTEC courses to students and consider them another success story. Only to find out in five years time that they *surprisingly* have been living on the dole... for the past five years.

Something's got to change.

I agree that BTEC courses etc are pretty much pointless, but I imagine that the majority of people who pick these courses wouldn't benefit much from learning how to do the things taught at A-Level Maths/Science etc.

[Ardemax]

I agree that BTEC courses etc are pretty much pointless, but I imagine that the majority of people who pick these courses wouldn't benefit much from learning how to do the things taught at A-Level Maths/Science etc.

Then let's set up a decent vocational system that is of some value to their lives. Maybe start people on courses that typically colleges would offer? :P

[GommeInc]

Wait, are those the subjects they're teaching in schools now? Drama, Photography etc should either be after school clubs or part of a wider subject. My English Lit GCSE involved a tiny bit of drama which merged Shakespear and a trip to see Romeo and Juliet together in one, there shouldn't be an entire course set out for it as it's not important - Drama should be something taught at A-Level at the earliest where children can choose to take it, rather than be forced to learn it when they really should be learning something useful and academic.

It's bad enough my school has a PE GCSE :/

[Aiden]

we are just pooey :(( some rich person give em a few bill plz?

[Reality]

we are just pooey :(( some rich person give em a few bill plz?

Looking American there 'give em a few bill'

[AgnesIO]

Not good enough to be 12th or 6th in the top economies ranking. Britain, a world power only as far back as our grandparents age (and still a Great power) ought to be aiming to be in the very top grouping - certainly ahead of France and Germany. In 2000 we were the fourth top economy in the world and now we've sunken to sixth/seventh.

A lot of things are to blame, EU membership for example restricting our ability as a financial world power to trade properly with Eastern nations is a part of it - but not everything because as you can see, other countries in the EU are ahead of us. It goes right back to education, work ethic & morality, welfarism - everything. The country is in dire need of a complete overhaul, especially with the rising East - because Britain teaching drama, photography, trave & tourism and art in its terrible state comprehensive schools isn't going to match up to Chinese students (who greatly outnumber us) who are learning the sciences, maths, history and economics.

Sink or swim, and boy are we sinking.

The UK has nothing to offer to be a world power. You can blame EU membership all you like, but we were nothing like as powerful as we once were even in 1950 - when we were not involved in the EU at all for obvious reasons. Glad you did look at the other side too though - that other states in the EU have prospered (although it would be difficult to count either Germany or France, baring in mind the EEC's original intentions!)

Totally and utterly agree with the school system, we seriously need to start teaching core subjects again, and show young people the VALUE of them, people need to stop thinking about "getting on with life", and need to start trying to be something special - and frankly, that isn't done without being good with maths and science (and obviously English). The school system here is shocking, although I know many would argue the "creative"/"hands on" subjects are essential (or whatever they are called).

-----

I must say when I saw the title I thought it said "Brits are now more popular than" - no surprise to find out it wasn't something that positive!

[-:Undertaker:-]

The UK has nothing to offer to be a world power. You can blame EU membership all you like, but we were nothing like as powerful as we once were even in 1950 - when we were not involved in the EU at all for obvious reasons.

I said I didn't blame the EU for it and pointed out that its a mainly home grown problem - something you clearly were dying to criticise me for, but even accept below that I stated it was a home grown problem and the EU was only a part of it.

As for being a world power, again I said exactly that - but I also pointed out that we are a great power, and that even under the piss poor management of our current politicians we're still projected to remain a Great power with global capabilities right past 2050 - so we have a lot to offer economically, especially considering we're the worlds number one financial city.


Glad you did look at the other side too though - that other states in the EU have prospered (although it would be difficult to count either Germany or France, baring in mind the EEC's original intentions!)

The EEC has always had the same intentions as it has today, eventual political union.

It's only really blindly faithful Tory members who like to deluded themselves otherwise.


Totally and utterly agree with the school system, we seriously need to start teaching core subjects again, and show young people the VALUE of them, people need to stop thinking about "getting on with life", and need to start trying to be something special - and frankly, that isn't done without being good with maths and science (and obviously English). The school system here is shocking, although I know many would argue the "creative"/"hands on" subjects are essential (or whatever they are called).

It is all related to the abolition of the grammar schools in this country (which the useless Tories won't reverse) which gave poorer but clever kids the chance to do as good as somebody from a weathly background - that's why social mobility back then was so good for state school pupils getting into top universities, and why it's falling today in the post-grammar school era.

Until grammar schools are returned, the economy improved and silly subjects dropped - it's going to get worse and worse.

[AgnesIO]

I said I didn't blame the EU for it and pointed out that its a mainly home grown problem - something you clearly were dying to criticise me for, but even accept below that I stated it was a home grown problem and the EU was only a part of it.

As for being a world power, again I said exactly that - but I also pointed out that we are a great power, and that even under the piss poor management of our current politicians we're still projected to remain a Great power with global capabilities right past 2050 - so we have a lot to offer economically, especially considering we're the worlds number one financial city.



The EEC has always had the same intentions as it has today, eventual political union.

It's only really blindly faithful Tory members who like to deluded themselves otherwise.



It is all related to the abolition of the grammar schools in this country (which the useless Tories won't reverse) which gave poorer but clever kids the chance to do as good as somebody from a weathly background - that's why social mobility back then was so good for state school pupils getting into top universities, and why it's falling today in the post-grammar school era.

Until grammar schools are returned, the economy improved and silly subjects dropped - it's going to get worse and worse.

Your are wrong. I said I was glad you looked at the other side too - evidently stating I recognise you are not totally blaming the EU. However you clearly did say you partially blame the EU - despite you now claiming you didn't ("A lot of things are to blame, EU membership for example") - sorry if I misread that...

The EEC original intentions = Franco-German project. My point was the French and Germans always intended it to benefit them, so the fact they are both rising is unsurprising. Do you know what? I would be more than happy for a political union, a United States of Europe. I want what will benefit the UK - not our global power, but our quality of life. If that was improved and our defence was improved as a result of it I would be happy for it. You don't seem to understand that, national sovereignty is not the biggest issue for me - I want what will benefit the UK. If it turned out a USE would do more harm than good, I would not be in favour of it. However, the issue has been looked at in extreme focus (ie. not just one side), I would decide whether I wanted it.

Labour had 13 years to reverse the grammar school issue and didn't either. The economy being improved is not really related to the grammar school issue, and any argument saying it is is fundamentally flawed. The economy was very strong not so long ago. I would not dispute in the long term educated people will benefit the economy, just not in the short term!

[-:Undertaker:-]

Your are wrong. I said I was glad you looked at the other side too - evidently stating I recognise you are not totally blaming the EU. However you clearly did say you partially blame the EU - despite you now claiming you didn't ("A lot of things are to blame, EU membership for example") - sorry if I misread that...


Yes, the EU is partially a problem - but many are home grown problems. It's as simple as my original statement which you didn't read properly.


The EEC original intentions = Franco-German project. My point was the French and Germans always intended it to benefit them, so the fact they are both rising is unsurprising. Do you know what? I would be more than happy for a political union, a United States of Europe. I want what will benefit the UK - not our global power, but our quality of life. If that was improved and our defence was improved as a result of it I would be happy for it. You don't seem to understand that, national sovereignty is not the biggest issue for me - I want what will benefit the UK. If it turned out a USE would do more harm than good, I would not be in favour of it. However, the issue has been looked at in extreme focus (ie. not just one side), I would decide whether I wanted it.

So in other words, you have no regard for national sovereignty, no concept of how a nation works and not a care for democracy (as Europe doesn't have a demos and thus can never be a functioning democracy even if it wanted to be). How sad that somebody can fall so easily into the typical idealistic youth trap whereby they think that grand utopian projects like the European one can result in any good coming from it - it can't, just look at all other falsely created nation states (Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union). All utopian projects tend to end in disaster, being a 'Conservative' I would have thought you'd understand that and be naturally sceptical of such ideas.

Before you 'consider' ideas like this, actually go back to basics and think about what a nation is. Is a nation simply random lines drawn on a map? or is a nation more than that? if you come to the second, more intelligent conclusion, you'll realise the concept of a workable United States of Europe is as realistic as a union between China and Japan. :P


Labour had 13 years to reverse the grammar school issue and didn't either. The economy being improved is not really related to the grammar school issue, and any argument saying it is is fundamentally flawed. The economy was very strong not so long ago. I would not dispute in the long term educated people will benefit the economy, just not in the short term!

Why would Labour bring back the grammar schools? Labour, being a party of the left, are naturally against education by selection and view education as a means of equality rather than of passing on knowledge. The so-called Conservative Party however is supposed to *be* conservative and do conservatives things, like supporting grammar school education - something it fails to do which is why it's membership is in collapse and its supporters are abandoning it in droves.

[AgnesIO]

Yes, the EU is partially a problem - but many are home grown problems. It's as simple as my original statement.



So in other words, you have no regard for national sovereignty, no concept of how a nation works and not a care for democracy (as Europe doesn't have a demos and thus can never be a functioning democracy even if it wanted to be). How sad that somebody can fall so easily into the typical idealistic youth trap whereby they think that grand utopian projects like the European one can result in any good coming from it - it can't, just look at all other falsely created nation states (Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union). All utopian projects tend to end in disaster, being a 'Conservative' I would have thought you'd understand that and be naturally sceptical of such ideas.

Before you 'consider' ideas like this, actually go back to basics and think about what a nation is. Is a nation simply random lines drawn on a map? or is a nation more than that? if you come to the second, more intelligent conclusion, you'll realise the concept of a workable United States of Europe is as realistic as a union between China and Japan. :P



Why would Labour bring back the grammar schools? Labour, being a party of the left, are naturally against education by selection and view education as a means of equality rather than of passing on knowledge. The so-called Conservative Party however is supposed to *be* conservative and do conservatives things, like supporting grammar school education - something it fails to do which is why it's membership is in collapse and its supporters are abandoning it in droves.

I respect national sovereignty, but I will always have an opinion based on what is best for Britain. I certainly won't ever support a USE if there is not a seriously strong argument on why it would be worthwhile - however if it would help Britain, I would support it. The reason I am against leaving Europe is because I do not accept that it would help Britain. If I genuinely believed it would, I would vote to leave straight away.

Not exactly sure why you have put quotation marks on consider. I know a USE would be a huge project, but it CAN work - I can see why the Europhile's want it to work as well. I think the only issue with a USE as it has expanded too far (although Thatcher is partially to blame for that one, isn't she!) The Conservatives, by your usual estimations, are in favour of school by selection - but on a monetary value, rather than intelligence value. However they are evidently making moves to benefit those who are poorer but intelligent (11+ reforms, no resits - ie. stopping those who are not genuinely smart) - all arguably attempts.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I respect national sovereignty, but I will always have an opinion based on what is best for Britain. I certainly won't ever support a USE if there is not a seriously strong argument on why it would be worthwhile - however if it would help Britain, I would support it. The reason I am against leaving Europe is because I do not accept that it would help Britain. If I genuinely believed it would, I would vote to leave straight away.

How can dissolving Britain into a federal state possibly help it? is national sovereignty not important to you? in any case, even if dissolving Britain into a federal state did help is it not better to be able to make your own laws and controlling your own destiny rather than sacrificing that key power for any monetary or soft/hard power gain on the world stage?

Is your sense of identity so weak that you can simply drop being British tommorow depending on economic circumstances? bizzare.


Not exactly sure why you have put quotation marks on consider. I know a USE would be a huge project, but it CAN work - I can see why the Europhile's want it to work as well. I think the only issue with a USE as it has expanded too far (although Thatcher is partially to blame for that one, isn't she!)

How can it work when there exists no European people only peoples (there exists no demos)? I cannot name one democratic political system that has survived or remained stable that does not have a single or large majority demos. Can you?


The Conservatives, by your usual estimations, are in favour of school by selection - but on a monetary value, rather than intelligence value. However they are evidently making moves to benefit those who are poorer but intelligent (11+ reforms, no resits - ie. stopping those who are not genuinely smart) - all arguably attempts.

Indeed, which is why they are so useless and richly deserve to fall apart after they lose for the fifth time in a row come 2015.

[AgnesIO]

How can dissolving Britain into a federal state possibly help it? is national sovereignty not important to you? in any case, even if dissolving Britain into a federal state did help is it not better to be able to make your own laws and controlling your own destiny rather than sacrificing that key power for any monetary or soft/hard power gain on the world stage?

Is your sense of identity so weak that you can simply drop being British tommorow depending on economic circumstances? bizzare.



How can it work when there exists no European people only peoples (there exists no demos)? I cannot name one democratic political system that has survived or remained stable that does not have a single or large majority demos. Can you?



Indeed, which is why they are so useless and richly deserve to fall apart after they lose for the fifth time in a row come 2015.

As I say, the economy is ultimately the most important factor to me. Business is what means so much to me in life, I have never hidden that fact - and that all ultimately lies on the economy. I would prefer a complete political union to the current mish-mash of having both national and intergovernmental (some would argue supranational) powers - all that has done is create double the red tape, and confusing laws. I think the Single Market is a fantastic creation, and the issue we have that other states that never joined Europe (ie. Switzerland do not have is that we accepted membership. The only way we can realistically be a part of a European Single Market is if the majority of states decide to leave (which would be a brilliant ending) - but I simply cannot see that happening.

The EU could have demos. I am never going to deny the lack of a unified culture - and the USE does at present look like it could not ever happen. But my god if I believed it would help the economy I would join it tomorrow.

[-:Undertaker:-]

As I say, the economy is ultimately the most important factor to me. Business is what means so much to me in life, I have never hidden that fact - and that all ultimately lies on the economy. I would prefer a complete political union to the current mish-mash of having both national and intergovernmental (some would argue supranational) powers - all that has done is create double the red tape, and confusing laws. I think the Single Market is a fantastic creation, and the issue we have that other states that never joined Europe (ie. Switzerland do not have is that we accepted membership. The only way we can realistically be a part of a European Single Market is if the majority of states decide to leave (which would be a brilliant ending) - but I simply cannot see that happening.

Create double the red tape? no no, you have it completely the wrong way around. The entire reason the European Union creates such a crazy amount of regulation is very simple - that it is hellbent on acquiring more power at the centre, the exact opposite of what a healthy economy needs.

As for the single market, personally I see little benefit at all. We are told that it makes sense for the rules to be standardised so that we can sell products - which it does. But little mention is made of the fact that all companies tailor their products to different markets anyway just as all exports to the United States from Britain have to be made in accordance with US production practices. So it's a moot point, a relic of post-war thinking when there was only the old European powers and the US who had any economic sway. The world is much bigger and complex now.


The EU could have demos. I am never going to deny the lack of a unified culture - and the USE does at present look like it could not ever happen.

It could have a demos in the same way that China and Saudi Arabia could have a demos in 2213 through some very bizzare and centuries-long encounters - just as it took England and Scotland 7 or 8 centuries to eventually come to a Union (and even that Union is fragmented) - yet you somehow think that a union of much more differing and fiercely independent (after WW2 and Soviet domination) states in Europe could come to a union in our lifetime.

It's not going to happen because its make-believe - yet, you are prepared to risk everything (peace, economcic stability and prosperity) on the vague notion that a federal Europe 'could' work when all other similar attempts have failed. How many more economies, cultures and wars do we have to experience in Europe to realise that creating nations out of nothing only leads to misery and destruction?

Kalmar Union, Yugoslavia, Czechslovakia, the Third Reich, the Soviet Union, Cyprus, Italian unification, Spain and its troubles.... endless examples of complete and utter failure at the behest of utopian and unworkable ideas dreamt up by 'intellectuals' looking at maps rather than peoples.


But my god if I believed it would help the economy I would join it tomorrow.

So in other words, sacrifice everything - a thousand years of sovereignty, independence, a legal system of common law, seperate culture, independent church, Royalty, unionism and everything else that makes Britain what it is - on the altar of vague & unproven economic benefits.

Ironically even if a USE was workable, it'd be one that damages the economy rather than helps it. You say business is what matters most to you - then you should know that continental Europe is totally different in its mindset to business than Britain and the Anglosphere countries are with Europe preferring high state control of industries via regulation and nationalisation.

For somebody who takes an interest in business, you appear to know little of the economic history of Europe since 1900.

[Chippiewill]

and not a care for democracy (as Europe doesn't have a demos and thus can never be a functioning democracy even if it wanted to be).

Not sure why anyone would, it doesn't work.