What people are underpaid/overpaid?

[Eoin247]

Title says it all. Who do you think are the people/jobs most overpaid or underpaid.

Started thinking about this when I heard news of Gareth Bale earning 300,000 a week now in Real Madrid :rolleyes:

[-:Undertaker:-]

Public sector workers who are high up in the public sector (not nurses, street cleaners etc before anybody jumps down my throat). You only had to look in the jobs section of the Guardian newspaper a few years ago to see the BBC offering ridiculous jobs out for ridiculous sums of money, along with Councils offering 'Global Warming Officer' for 100k a year of taxpayer money.

One of the first things if I got into office would be to have a big list of all jobs in the public sector management compiled and i'd go through the entire thing ticking off the majority of them which would be cut and no replacement found.

As for the private sector, i'm not fussed - while I can't understand the fad over football, it's market forces determining it at the end of the day.

[karter]

robert downey jr :S ??

he made like 75 million dollars last year wow whatever.. overrated


ANYWAY I think teachers are underpaid

[FlyingJesus]

He's paid exactly what his employer deems him worthy of, not over or under. Football is a private business paid for with private money (lots of which goes back into the economy through ridiculously high taxes) so there is no damage in it at all. By contrast, when people say CUT FOOTBALL WAYJ AND PAY IT TO A ARMY they aren't realising that the army isn't private and thus their wages come directly out of the country - if people want to raise £1.5m per captain per year in taxes to pay them the same as Bale gets then good luck getting the general public to fork out

[myles]

um isnt it against the law 2 be underpaid???? i dont no

[Yawn]

it annoy me when ppl r like nurses get paid this and footballers get paid this!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

like its completely different shut up :S

(not moaning at u eoin btw)

[MKR&*42]

Omg agreeing Wirh the Bit about teachers. Ik head teachers are paid a fair bit but I think those lower down the hierarchy deserve a lot more Than the current average.

[Cerys]

Umm

I agree with the footballers being paid too much but tbh.. if the club can afford it why not.

Honestly I think bin men are underpaid lmfao cos they do such an awful job which pretty much everyone takes for granted

[-:Undertaker:-]

Omg agreeing Wirh the Bit about teachers. Ik head teachers are paid a fair bit but I think those lower down the hierarchy deserve a lot more Than the current average.

A good idea for teachers would be for wages to remain on the same level but for added performance pay - meaning if the teacher improved the classes marks by x% on that year, they would recieve a certain bonus for the year.

[oli]

Umm

I agree with the footballers being paid too much but tbh.. if the club can afford it why not.

Honestly I think bin men are underpaid lmfao cos they do such an awful job which pretty much everyone takes for granted

Binmen get paid quite a lot for a job which requires no skill.. They earn just above average wage I believe in the UK.

But ofc I think all sportsmen get overpaid, being a teacher is actually a really fun job so them getting paid average wage is fine in my opinion as well, however I don't think nurses get paid enough, considering they do all the jobs in the hospital that the doctors don't want to do, they're our caretakers whilst in hospital and they should get paid more, also considering all the nurses I've encountered have been so friendly and helpful.

[FlyingJesus]

Waste collection jobs may not be highly skilled but they are highly dangerous - statistically several times more so than police work even. That's what the tiny pay increase is for

[mrwoooooooo]

A good idea for teachers would be for wages to remain on the same level but for added performance pay - meaning if the teacher improved the classes marks by x% on that year, they would recieve a certain bonus for the year.
teachers don't like performance reviews

[Eoin247]

A good idea for teachers would be for wages to remain on the same level but for added performance pay - meaning if the teacher improved the classes marks by x% on that year, they would recieve a certain bonus for the year.

Would love this to be the case. Because as it currently is you could be lucky and get a good teacher or unlucky and get a terrible one, but it makes no difference to the teachers if they are good or not. Unfortunately the teacher's unions would never let this happen.

[mrwoooooooo]

white people are overpaid

[Kardan]

A good idea for teachers would be for wages to remain on the same level but for added performance pay - meaning if the teacher improved the classes marks by x% on that year, they would recieve a certain bonus for the year.

I'm quite happy with teachers wages to remain how they are, I think a bonus for how well the children do however wouldn't go down so well, since it would primarily be down to the initial ability of the children, and last years children.

If one person has a class full of students getting A's, and gets them to stay at A's and they get a good bonus, they're screwed next year when they manage to get a full class of students getting F/G/U's and get them up to D's, despite doing a much better job.

[Cerys]

Binmen get paid quite a lot for a job which requires no skill.. They earn just above average wage I believe in the UK.

But ofc I think all sportsmen get overpaid, being a teacher is actually a really fun job so them getting paid average wage is fine in my opinion as well, however I don't think nurses get paid enough, considering they do all the jobs in the hospital that the doctors don't want to do, they're our caretakers whilst in hospital and they should get paid more, also considering all the nurses I've encountered have been so friendly and helpful.

It may require no skill, but would you really want to do that job? No.
I respect them for doing it.

[oli]

It may require no skill, but would you really want to do that job? No.
I respect them for doing it.

That's why they get paid so much, because it's a demeaning job to have. But without it where would we be?
If I was unemployed and my kids were counting on me, I would try my best to get any job which pays well, even being a binman.

[Cerys]

That's why they get paid so much, because it's a demeaning job to have. But without it where would we be?
.

Uhm, that's exactly what I'm saying?

fgs I can't tell if you're actually an idiot or very slow

[oli]

Uhm, that's exactly what I'm saying?

fgs I can't tell if you're actually an idiot or very slow

okay listen here ill write it in steps for u

1) Honestly I think bin men are underpaid lmfao cos they do such an awful job which pretty much everyone takes for granted

2) I say that they get paid more than over 50% of all people in the uk, hopefully you're following me

3) It may require no skill, but would you really want to do that job? No.

4) So then I reinstate the fact which I already said of which is why they get paid more than 50% of the uk because nobody wants that job.

Sorry hun it looks like you're the one who is quite slow?

hopefully u get that

[Cerys]

okay listen here ill write it in steps for u

1) Honestly I think bin men are underpaid lmfao cos they do such an awful job which pretty much everyone takes for granted

2) I say that they get paid more than over 50% of all people in the uk, hopefully you're following me

3) It may require no skill, but would you really want to do that job? No.

4) So then I reinstate the fact which I already said of which is why they get paid more than 50% of the uk because nobody wants that job.

Sorry hun it looks like you're the one who is quite slow?

hopefully u get that

I dont actually believe someone is this dumb.

I said the 'number 1' part, then you say
'Binmen get paid quite a lot for a job which requires no skill.. They earn just above average wage I believe in the UK.'

To which I replied to, yeah it requires no skill and would you really want to do that job no. WHICH MEANS IM AGREEING WITH YOU THAT THAT IS THE REASON THEY GET PAYED MORE

are you really this thick.

[FlyingJesus]

btw you're both wrong, already explained that the wage not matching the skill level required is because of the dangers involved not because it's demeaning

[oli]

I dont actually believe someone is this dumb.

I said the 'number 1' part, then you say
'Binmen get paid quite a lot for a job which requires no skill.. They earn just above average wage I believe in the UK.'

To which I replied to, yeah it requires no skill and would you really want to do that job no. WHICH MEANS IM AGREEING WITH YOU THAT THAT IS THE REASON THEY GET PAYED MORE

are you really this thick.

But then I go ahead and say I would take the job if it was under circumstances? .................................................. .................................................. .....

[Cerys]

I'm just gonna leave this here because I refuse to discuss this topic any further with someone who has an IQ lower than 30..

[Ardemax]

I'm just gonna leave this here because I refuse to discuss this topic any further with someone who has an IQ lower than 30..

Plan B in every argument: insult the person you are arguing with. Yes.

Also footballers get payed no where near other sportsmen (Tiger Woods being a billionare) and film stars, so cut them some slack.

Teachers are probably underpaid, especially good ones who have been in the job a long time. They offer so much to the community and it would be a shame to deter potentially great teachers from teaching due to the returns.

[oli]

btw you're both wrong, already explained that the wage not matching the skill level required is because of the dangers involved not because it's demeaning

Yeah I've learnt that now didn't think she needed to insult me though..


Plan B in every argument: insult the person you are arguing with. Yes.

Also footballers get payed no where near other sportsmen (Tiger Woods being a billionare) and film stars, so cut them some slack.

Teachers are probably underpaid, especially good ones who have been in the job a long time. They offer so much to the community and it would be a shame to deter potentially great teachers from teaching due to the returns.
Wow I had no idea Tiger Woods was so rich. When the teachers who have taught me say why they've become teachers they say it's because they want to give something back to the community, which I think is great that there are people like that, and some teachers can have really tough times with certain students and if they're only going to be earning 20k a year? Teaching is fairly specialised as well so I don't think it's at all fair to them.

[Ardemax]

Yeah I've learnt that now didn't think she needed to insult me though..


Wow I had no idea Tiger Woods was so rich. When the teachers who have taught me say why they've become teachers they say it's because they want to give something back to the community, which I think is great that there are people like that, and some teachers can have really tough times with certain students and if they're only going to be earning 20k a year? Teaching is fairly specialised as well so I don't think it's at all fair to them.

I totally agree. There's a great video somewhere about where a guy asks a teacher "how much he makes".

Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU

Very inspiring.

[buttons]

some ppl may disagree but i feel like those in army (idk what specifically) and the oil industry are stupidly overpaid, up here at least. our casinos are full of offshore workers and young army boys gambling all their money away and spending it on,coke. my dad is only a STEWARD off shore (cleaning rooms basically) but gets paid more than my mum who works most days/overtime etc whilst he works 2 weeks at a time n 2 weeks off. he gets a ridiculous amount of money considering what maids etc get paid lol

[oli]

some ppl may disagree but i feel like those in army (idk what specifically) and the oil industry are stupidly overpaid, up here at least. our casinos are full of offshore workers and young army boys gambling all their money away and spending it on,coke. my dad is only a STEWARD off shore (cleaning rooms basically) but gets paid more than my mum who works most days/overtime etc whilst he works 2 weeks at a time n 2 weeks off. he gets a ridiculous amount of money considering what maids etc get paid lol

£12,500/year I think is a private in the UK, I think they get underpaid, and on the point of binman before that they get paid so much because of the risks... I don't think it adds up when soldiers are involved. And that's in the UK, in the US it's even worse, but that is also partly because of the immense training they are put through, I've heard the chefs are put through more training than an average US soldier. But then again the chefs also go out on patrols.

[Matt]

footballers, actors and singers are all overpaid. Everyone else in underpaid.

[oli]

footballers, actors and singers are all overpaid. Everyone else in underpaid.

Lets also remember the fact that it is only a minority of these groups that actually get overpaid.

[Matt]

Fair point, What i should have said were Actors and Actresses from Hollywood, footballers that play for the top teams around the world and singers that are in the itunes charts.

[FlyingJesus]

Fair point, What i should have said were Actors and Actresses from Hollywood, footballers that play for the top teams around the world and singers that are in the itunes charts.

ie people whose paymasters are completely private moneyholders who are free to spend it as they wish ;)

On the note about army folk, they do tend to gamble and overspend a lot (especially the younger ones) simply because they earn a wage that isn't huge but that they simply don't need - if they're away training or in action for half the year then the times they come back are going to be times they want to celebrate still being alive, and they have the means to do so because they aren't paying huge living costs most of the time

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm quite happy with teachers wages to remain how they are, I think a bonus for how well the children do however wouldn't go down so well, since it would primarily be down to the initial ability of the children, and last years children.

If one person has a class full of students getting A's, and gets them to stay at A's and they get a good bonus, they're screwed next year when they manage to get a full class of students getting F/G/U's and get them up to D's, despite doing a much better job.

Not really, it would be done on how much that class has improved rather than what class you get. So a teacher would recieve the same bonus for improving set 1 by 10% just as they would with set 4.

[oli]

Not really, it would be done on how much that class has improved rather than what class you get. So a teacher would recieve the same bonus for improving set 1 by 10% just as they would with set 4.

But then you wouldn't want to be stuck with a group who get A*s in every exam.

[FlyingJesus]

Not really, it would be done on how much that class has improved rather than what class you get. So a teacher would recieve the same bonus for improving set 1 by 10% just as they would with set 4.

Much easier to make a class who can hardly write their name do 1000% better (ie: by actually answering a question) than it is to get a top set group to do even better :P performance based bonuses for teachers only helps weaker students and there are already a billion unnecessary programs for them

[Kardan]

Not really, it would be done on how much that class has improved rather than what class you get. So a teacher would recieve the same bonus for improving set 1 by 10% just as they would with set 4.

Then how do you judge how well a class improved? By tests? It's quite easy to give a hard paper to a class when they've had no revision, and then an easy class when they've been told to revise :P

What if you work in a private school and have a class full of A* students and there is no room for improvement?

[Eoin247]

Also footballers get payed no where near other sportsmen (Tiger Woods being a billionare) and film stars, so cut them some slack.

Well in the UK and Ireland, they are the highest paid sports people. David beckham is the richest sports star ever in the UK. Also Tiger woods has a fortune of around 500 million, and only got there from being the No.1 for many years, so not quite a billionaire and since golf isn't a team sport that's hardly surprising that he gets paid so much by sponsors .

"Footballers account for £1.3bn of the £3.2bn accrued by top earners" according to the Guardian.

---------- Post added 08-09-2013 at 06:14 PM ----------


Much easier to make a class who can hardly write their name do 1000% better (ie: by actually answering a question) than it is to get a top set group to do even better :P performance based bonuses for teachers only helps weaker students and there are already a billion unnecessary programs for them

They could have a logarithmic type scale for improvement. I'm there would be some more method in it than just x upgrades = y cash

[FlyingJesus]

Sounds like a lot of government regulation and bureaucracy which would end up costing more than just raising state teacher's wages tbh lol

[Kardan]

Well in the UK and Ireland, they are the highest paid sports people. David beckham is the richest sports star ever in the UK. Also Tiger woods has a fortune of around 500 million, and only got there from being the No.1 for many years, so not quite a billionaire and since golf isn't a team sport that's hardly surprising that he gets paid so much by sponsors .

"Footballers account for £1.3bn of the £3.2bn accrued by top earners" according to the Guardian.

---------- Post added 08-09-2013 at 06:14 PM ----------



They could have a logarithmic type scale for improvement. I'm there would be some more method in it than just x upgrades = y cash

A logarithmic scale does not solve a class that started and remained at A* level, since no improvement was made.

[Eoin247]

A logarithmic scale does not solve a class that started and remained at A* level, since no improvement was made.

i don't know about the UK, but I've never heard of any classes in Ireland where every single person in a class gets the top grade. Maybe it's because we have more grade varieties? We have A1,A2,B1,B2,B3,C1,C2,C3 etc.

[oli]

i don't know about the UK, but I've never heard of any classes in Ireland where every single person in a class gets the top grade. Maybe it's because we have more grade varieties? We have A1,A2,B1,B2,B3,C1,C2,C3 etc.

We have varieties like that below GCSE level, but how would you compare it to a student who is working @ 95% and they get to 100%, compared to a student who is working @ 30% and gets to 50%?

[Eoin247]

We have varieties like that below GCSE level, but how would you compare it to a student who is working @ 95% and they get to 100%, compared to a student who is working @ 30% and gets to 50%?

Some sort of variation of the log graph I mentioned. I'm no expert on the field but I imagine that a government can add a person who is an expert on this to their payroll and get a proper system devised.

[Kardan]

i don't know about the UK, but I've never heard of any classes in Ireland where every single person in a class gets the top grade. Maybe it's because we have more grade varieties? We have A1,A2,B1,B2,B3,C1,C2,C3 etc.

No, it would be very rare for usual public schools - but for private schools with small classes I'm sure it's been achieved many, many times.

Even at my school for Further Maths, there were 3 people in my class, myself included. We didn't all get top marks, but if we did, the situation would occur :P

The thing is, the whole system is flawed, if you got an expert on this subject to try and create a system, there wouldn't be a system that didn't have issues. It's better to leave teacher pay the way it is...

For example, trying to give doctors a pay bonus depending on how many patients live must suck if one person deals with broken arms, and the other deals with terminal cancer patients.

[Eoin247]

No, it would be very rare for usual public schools - but for private schools with small classes I'm sure it's been achieved many, many times.

Even at my school for Further Maths, there were 3 people in my class, myself included. We didn't all get top marks, but if we did, the situation would occur :P

The thing is, the whole system is flawed, if you got an expert on this subject to try and create a system, there wouldn't be a system that didn't have issues. It's better to leave teacher pay the way it is...

For example, trying to give doctors a pay bonus depending on how many patients live must suck if one person deals with broken arms, and the other deals with terminal cancer patients.

Obviously for small classes there would be exceptions and that's why it can't be a simple scale. Also for private schools that have small classes that wouldn't be fully funded by the government anyway. So it hardly matters.

A new system with a bit of thought put in is surely better than what there is currently. From experience and speaking to others, there are a lot of teachers around that are pretty bad/can't be bothered. There's no incentive for good work and bad teachers rarely get fired in the UK and Ireland.

Also that example that you gave wouldn't occur. Any expert on the matter would see that there are exceptions just as you and I can see. Mentally disabled kids obviously wouldn't be expected to perform as highly.

[Kardan]

Obviously for small classes there would be exceptions and that's why it can't be a simple scale. Also for private schools that have small classes that wouldn't be fully funded by the government anyway. So it hardly matters.

A new system with a bit of thought put in is surely better than what there is currently. From experience and speaking to others, there are a lot of teachers around that are pretty bad/can't be bothered. There's no incentive for good work and bad teachers rarely get fired in the UK and Ireland.

Also that example that you gave wouldn't occur. Any expert on the matter would see that there are exceptions just as you and I can see. Mentally disabled kids obviously wouldn't be expected to perform as highly.

So from your experience and speaking to others, how many teachers do you reckon are bad or can't be bothered? Because I highly doubt you could label many teachers as 'bad', I mean, between me and my friends we could probably come up with a list of 10-15 bad teachers we had over our whole education. If you can come up with a decent amount of bad teachers that accurately reflects the 438,000 teachers in England alone, be my guest :P

I honestly believe you wouldn't get an accurate enough system to give out fair pay bonuses in teaching.

[Eoin247]

So from your experience and speaking to others, how many teachers do you reckon are bad or can't be bothered? Because I highly doubt you could label many teachers as 'bad', I mean, between me and my friends we could probably come up with a list of 10-15 bad teachers we had over our whole education. If you can come up with a decent amount of bad teachers that accurately reflects the 438,000 teachers in England alone, be my guest :P

I honestly believe you wouldn't get an accurate enough system to give out fair pay bonuses in teaching.

Probably about 10-15 too. But that's too many. All it takes is one bad teacher when you're young.

Sure it won't be 100% fair, but nothing is in life. It would be a hell of a lot fairer than it currently is though.

Communist countries learnt the hard way that when you don't provide proper incentive people don't work as hard. ;)

[Kardan]

Probably about 10-15 too. But that's too many. All it takes is one bad teacher when you're young.

Sure it won't be 100% fair, but nothing is in life. It would be a hell of a lot fairer than it currently is though.

Communist countries learnt the hard way that when you don't provide proper incentive people don't work as hard. ;)

So 15 teachers is too many? I'm afraid you'll never get every single teacher in the UK up to the same standard, some will inevitably be better than others. Whilst I agree with you that one bad teacher can cause a lot of issues, offering performance related bonuses won't cure this.

And why is the current system not fair? And surely by your logic, every job should have performance related bonuses then?

[Eoin247]

So 15 teachers is too many? I'm afraid you'll never get every single teacher in the UK up to the same standard, some will inevitably be better than others. Whilst I agree with you that one bad teacher can cause a lot of issues, offering performance related bonuses won't cure this.

And why is the current system not fair? And surely by your logic, every job should have performance related bonuses then?

15 teachers for a group of friends is too many IMO.

Its not fair because bad teachers get the same pay as good teachers. All professions should have performance related bonuses. Most jobs you can get promoted for good work and get fired for not achieving good standards. As a teacher? You might become a principle but that is chosen on years worked rather than performance.

[Kardan]

15 teachers for a group of friends is too many IMO.

Its not fair because bad teachers get the same pay as good teachers. All professions should have performance related bonuses. Most jobs you can get promoted for good work and get fired for not achieving good standards. As a teacher? You might become a principle but that is chosen on years worked rather than performance.

I think you'll find they don't :P I would be highly surprised if you lined up a group of bad teachers and a group of good teachers and they all had the same salary :P

As a teacher there are options for promotion based on performance, and trust me, you definitely can get fired. I know at least 5 teachers that were fired.

As I stated before then, should a doctor that saves the lives of 100/100 people with broken arms be paid more than someone who saves 0/100 lives of people with terminal cancer, just because they performed better in their job role?

What about people in the army? The more people you kill, the more money you get? What about bus drivers? The more passengers, the more money? Same with pilots?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Sounds like a lot of government regulation and bureaucracy which would end up costing more than just raising state teacher's wages tbh lol

Devolve all pay matters to the schools themselves.

[Munex]

I like the idea of performance-determined pay. I've had many teachers that are solely in it for the money. I believe teaching should be driven by passion instead of an income.

Many people say soldiers should get paid more. I am for an against this. Most soldiers I know are really foul mannered and simply doing it as they have no qualifications. Again, this could be performance-related, with great, heroic, altruistic soldiers being paid a lot, lot, lot more. (But how do you determine this without life-threatening risk that could leave the person dead before they get paid)...

[Kardan]

I like the idea of performance-determined pay. I've had many teachers that are solely in it for the money. I believe teaching should be driven by passion instead of an income.

Many people say soldiers should get paid more. I am for an against this. Most soldiers I know are really foul mannered and simply doing it as they have no qualifications. Again, this could be performance-related, with great, heroic, altruistic soldiers being paid a lot, lot, lot more. (But how do you determine this without life-threatening risk that could leave the person dead before they get paid)...

Surely with performance related pay for teachers, teachers will want to do well because of income, and not because their passionate.

[Munex]

Surely with performance related pay for teachers, teachers will want to do well because of income, and not because their passionate.

That is true, but if they are deemed good teachers through assessment, then what difference does it make? Good teachers go the extra mile, not the bare minimum. Even if it is driven by money, as long as they are faking the passion well enough, it will still be as effective as someone who is truly passionate about their job.

[Kardan]

That is true, but if they are deemed good teachers through assessment, then what difference does it make? Good teachers go the extra mile, not the bare minimum. Even if it is driven by money, as long as they are faking the passion well enough, it will still be as effective as someone who is truly passionate about their job.

How do you judge a good teacher then in a fair and honest way? And I think every kid would rather have a good passionate teacher than a 'good' teacher driven by money.

[Munex]

How do you judge a good teacher then in a fair and honest way? And I think every kid would rather have a good passionate teacher than a 'good' teacher driven by money.

Teachers are already assessed by, I think, Ofsted (or maybe a different organisation). Someone goes in to review their lessons. And of course every student would rather a passionate teacher, but if one is passionate and one is driven by money (and both perform equally as well as each other), why should it matter if the one driven by money is paid the same as the passionate (but not any better) teacher?

[Eoin247]

I think you'll find they don't :P I would be highly surprised if you lined up a group of bad teachers and a group of good teachers and they all had the same salary :P

As a teacher there are options for promotion based on performance, and trust me, you definitely can get fired. I know at least 5 teachers that were fired.

As I stated before then, should a doctor that saves the lives of 100/100 people with broken arms be paid more than someone who saves 0/100 lives of people with terminal cancer, just because they performed better in their job role?

What about people in the army? The more people you kill, the more money you get? What about bus drivers? The more passengers, the more money? Same with pilots?

How do they have different salaries if they aren't getting paid for the quality of their work? The only teachers that get paid more are the older ones as far as i know. The only teacher i know who got fired was a guy who went to a strip club and got pissed while he was meant to be taking care of students on a tour. :L

You're providing the same example even though i said that there would be provisions for cases, like say, dyslexic or mentally disabled students. It wouldnt be a simple x improve= y pay.

Those other jobs you provide aren't comparable or you are thinking or the wrong way to compare them. In the army you are promoted/demoted for good work. Bus drivers and pilots bring people from a-b, you cannot improve that really. Clearly you can be a better teacher though, so i don't know what you meant with these examples?

[Kardan]

How do they have different salaries if they aren't getting paid for the quality of their work? The only teachers that get paid more are the older ones as far as i know. The only teacher i know who got fired was a guy who went to a strip club and got pissed while he was meant to be taking care of students on a tour. :L

You're providing the same example even though i said that there would be provisions for cases, like say, dyslexic or mentally disabled students. It wouldnt be a simple x improve= y pay.

Those other jobs you provide aren't comparable or you are thinking or the wrong way to compare them. In the army you are promoted/demoted for good work. Bus drivers and pilots bring people from a-b, you cannot improve that really. Clearly you can be a better teacher though, so i don't know what you meant with these examples?

Yup, as you said, the longer you've been teaching, the more you get paid, that's where different salaries come from. Also I imagine there's different salaries for different subjects due to demand.

I also think you're misintepreting how difficult it would be to launch this over the whole country. What happens for a teacher that teaches both ordinary students and students with mental disabilities? There's so many individual cases to think about.

And how can you *always* be a better teacher?

[Ardemax]

What would happen if soldiers were given footballer's wages?

http://supportersnotcustomers.com/2013/09/08/soldiers-should-get-footballers-wages/

[Eoin247]

What happens for a teacher that teaches both ordinary students and students with mental disabilities? There's so many individual cases to think about.

And how can you *always* be a better teacher?

Sorry but i've mentioned twice already that there would be exceptions for students with mental disabilities and others. It doesn't have to be rocket science, obviously not as much would be expected from these students.

If you cannot become a good teacher then you picked the wrong job. There's thousands of other jobs to choose from. You shouldn't stay a bad teacher and hinder education just because you think that you cannot change.

[Kardan]

Sorry but i've mentioned twice already that there would be exceptions for students with mental disabilities and others. It doesn't have to be rocket science, obviously not as much would be expected from these students.

If you cannot become a good teacher then you picked the wrong job. There's thousands of other jobs to choose from. You shouldn't stay a bad teacher and hinder education just because you think that you cannot change.

This is my point, by making an exception for students with mental disabilities, not only will you have to come up with the many thousands of different scenarios needed for each individual case, you'll probably push teachers more towards teaching classes that have more exceptions so they can get better pay.

Maybe I'll reword my different question then... How would you decide who a crap teacher was then?

[Eoin247]

This is my point, by making an exception for students with mental disabilities, not only will you have to come up with the many thousands of different scenarios needed for each individual case, you'll probably push teachers more towards teaching classes that have more exceptions so they can get better pay.

Maybe I'll reword my different question then... How would you decide who a crap teacher was then?

Student with mental disabilities can improve. Just not to the same extent as other students, so with a different scale teachers wouldn't be pushed to these classes. There wouldn't be thousands of different scenarios that require individual attention. All students with mental disabilities of any type go through tests anyway. These test results (which are already availible) can be used to judge what can be expected from them more or less.

It wouldn't be based on just one class anyway i'd imagine. Repeated success/failure during the year and years would judge how good of a teacher they are.

[FlyingJesus]

Just gonna mention that grades are not the only mark of a good teacher - in my eyes, not even the most important. A good teacher, especially at high school level, should be not just giving you the facts needed to pass a test but coaching you on how to learn things by yourself and be passionate about your own education. Students don't have to be all Oh Captain My Captain about them certainly in my experience what has made the best teachers is students having respect for them and wanting to do well themselves, not someone who forces droll working conditions for the sake of an end paper

[Kardan]

Student with mental disabilities can improve. Just not to the same extent as other students, so with a different scale teachers wouldn't be pushed to these classes. There wouldn't be thousands of different scenarios that require individual attention. All students with mental disabilities of any type go through tests anyway. These test results (which are already availible) can be used to judge what can be expected from them more or less.

It wouldn't be based on just one class anyway i'd imagine. Repeated success/failure during the year and years would judge how good of a teacher they are.

So you reckon that all classes that have students with disabilities should have a single 'disability' scale, and non-disabled students would have a 'non disabled' scale... So you'd have 2?

It's pretty clear that you can't group every child with a disability under the same scale, hence why I say there are many many possibilities.

Would a teacher teaching a class of 13 dyslexic children be treated the same as a teacher teaching 3 blind children? Or what about someone teaching a single behaviourally disabled child? Each case is different, and there's too many for any fair system to be developed.

And as stated many times, grades aren't the only thing to determining a good/bad teacher, so it's very possible for a good teacher to get a poor set of results and a bad teacher to fluke into a set of good results.

[Eoin247]

So you reckon that all classes that have students with disabilities should have a single 'disability' scale, and non-disabled students would have a 'non disabled' scale... So you'd have 2?

It's pretty clear that you can't group every child with a disability under the same scale, hence why I say there are many many possibilities.

Would a teacher teaching a class of 13 dyslexic children be treated the same as a teacher teaching 3 blind children? Or what about someone teaching a single behaviourally disabled child? Each case is different, and there's too many for any fair system to be developed.



No, and I answered this point in my last post: ''All students with mental disabilities of any type go through tests anyway. These test results (which are already availible) can be used to judge what can be expected from them more or less.''

Of course each case is different as is every single thing in life, but you don't need to have a thousand different situations individually inspected. If that were the case then it would be impossible to tax people (which is many multiple times more complicated).

I tried to avoid doing this. But I'll give a very basic idea of what the system would be like off the top of my head.

-A log type graph would be made for normal classes and students based off national statistics (readily available).

-Students with mental disabilities are already tested (again readily available numbers)to determine the severity of their problem. Lets say for example there's a scale of 1-100 with regards to the problem's severity (1 being perhaps slightly dyslexic with 100 being the worst). You would not expect as much off a person with a disability at a level of 50 as you would with a level 25.

- These numbers are added up in a class (i.e one 20 level and two 40 levels makes the total for the class 100). Overall class expectations are made based on those figures.





And as stated many times, grades aren't the only thing to determining a good/bad teacher, so it's very possible for a good teacher to get a poor set of results and a bad teacher to fluke into a set of good results.

Again i answered this in my last post :S ''It wouldn't be based on just one class anyway i'd imagine. Repeated success/failure during the year and years would judge how good of a teacher they are.''

[FlyingJesus]

So you'd need tests to test which tests to test them for

[BreakfastBacon]

underpaid

firemen/police/army soldiers they save people every day and guess who gets tonnes more money?

OVERPAID

Basketball players/ football or soccer players

wut? you get paid more to kick or push a ball around and in the case of soccer players scream on the floor if your toe gets slightly brushed against by a sponge.

this really doesn't make sense for me at all.

[Kardan]

No, and I answered this point in my last post: ''All students with mental disabilities of any type go through tests anyway. These test results (which are already availible) can be used to judge what can be expected from them more or less.''

Of course each case is different as is every single thing in life, but you don't need to have a thousand different situations individually inspected. If that were the case then it would be impossible to tax people (which is many multiple times more complicated).

I tried to avoid doing this. But I'll give a very basic idea of what the system would be like off the top of my head.

-A log type graph would be made for normal classes and students based off national statistics (readily available).

-Students with mental disabilities are already tested (again readily available numbers)to determine the severity of their problem. Lets say for example there's a scale of 1-100 with regards to the problem's severity (1 being perhaps slightly dyslexic with 100 being the worst). You would not expect as much off a person with a disability at a level of 50 as you would with a level 25.

- These numbers are added up in a class (i.e one 20 level and two 40 levels makes the total for the class 100). Overall class expectations are made based on those figures.




Again i answered this in my last post :S ''It wouldn't be based on just one class anyway i'd imagine. Repeated success/failure during the year and years would judge how good of a teacher they are.''

Then how do you judge how much to give a teacher that takes a dyslexic class of a score of 700 from a F to a E, or a teacher that takes blind children of 225 from a U to a F. Where do you pull in the numbers for how much to give teachers?

Can't you see how immensely complicated this is?

First you need to judge the disability of an entire class, then you need to consider how badly the disability will impact on performance and improvement, then you need to actually observe how much improvement there was, then you need to come up with a scale to give bonus pay based on how much improvement there is, and then you need to take into account bad streaks and good streaks before you actually give out bonus pay.

Then cue all the teachers going on strike because the government messed up somewhere along the lines.

[oli]

underpaid

firemen/police/army soldiers they save people every day and guess who gets tonnes more money?

OVERPAID

Basketball players/ football or soccer players

wut? you get paid more to kick or push a ball around and in the case of soccer players scream on the floor if your toe gets slightly brushed against by a sponge.

this really doesn't make sense for me at all.

The difference between the private sector and the public sector.

[Eoin247]

So you'd need tests to test which tests to test them for

Care to explain?


Then how do you judge how much to give a teacher that takes a dyslexic class of a score of 700 from a F to a E, or a teacher that takes blind children of 225 from a U to a F. Where do you pull in the numbers for how much to give teachers?

Can't you see how immensely complicated this is?

I hope i don't sound rude when i say this but I honestly cannot see how you find that complicated? I've done mathematical modeling projects for real life situations that were far more complicated than this and i did them successfully back when i was only 17 and hadn't even finished secondary school yet.



First you need to judge the disability of an entire class, then you need to consider how badly the disability will impact on performance and improvement, then you need to actually observe how much improvement there was, then you need to come up with a scale to give bonus pay based on how much improvement there is, and then you need to take into account bad streaks and good streaks before you actually give out bonus pay.

The first bit sounds fine and simple enough to implement. Not too sure what you mean by the bit in bold though.


Then cue all the teachers going on strike because the government messed up somewhere along the lines.

That's why i said in my first post that the unions wont condone it. Reason? A hell of a lot of teachers now have to try harder.

[FlyingJesus]

Care to explain?

Children - scratch that, PEOPLE - are different not only in ability but also learning style, attention to detail, willingness to co-operate, desire to learn, respect for authority, personal issues, and a whole range of everything else that affects ones learning. To properly gauge a teacher's influence on a class you'd need to know everything about every student as well as having close monitoring of the classroom at all times, which is clearly absurd. Otherwise it's a system of estimates and misinformation which through clerical error or simply pupil disobedience could mean the difference between a teacher being able to support their family or not. It's a highly unnecessary idea with no real bonuses to it since it would cost astronomical amounts more to properly implement it than to continue as things are (or even give teachers a raise nationally) as well as making the teaching profession an extremely risky career that relies on the clientele (ie pupils) rather than the actual abilities of the teacher.

In short, it's ******* stupid.

[Kardan]

Care to explain?



I hope i don't sound rude when i say this but I honestly cannot see how you find that complicated? I've done mathematical modeling projects for real life situations that were far more complicated than this and i did them successfully back when i was only 17 and hadn't even finished secondary school yet.




The first bit sounds fine and simple enough to implement. Not too sure what you mean by the bit in bold though.



That's why i said in my first post that the unions wont condone it. Reason? A hell of a lot of teachers now have to try harder.

The problem is with mathematical modelling is that there are many assumptions made about the situation to make the calculations much easier. In real life, you can't ignore these since they have so much impact on individual situations.

And by the part in bold, what if you have two teachers that are new to teaching, each have taught for just a year. One is a good teacher, but got given a string of bottom set classes and all performed badly with a hard foundation paper, whereas the other is a crap teacher, didn't teach very well but all his classes fluked the exam with an easy higher paper.

That's just two teachers for one year, as you said, it should be looked at over many years, but given that there are 438,000 teachers in England alone, there will be some people that have this happen to them year after year through no fault on their own.

Also with this system, what happens to teachers that go on maternity leave for an extended amount of time? Will they get a bonus for somebody elses work? What about substitute teachers, do they not get a bonus? And what about classes that have multiple teachers? Do they divide their bonus by the number of classes they've taught between them?

As I've said before, there's so many individual situations that no system can fully cover, and even if there was, the grounds of judgement (test performance) isn't even that strong. You can't truly test a teachers ability for high grade performance without top, top students. Just like you can't expect an F1 driver to set quick lap times in a Ford Escort, or somebody in the army to take down multiple enemies with a handgun.

[Mikey]

Footballers and celebrities definitely overpaid.

Nurses, teachers, military etc are underpaid.

[Kardan]

Footballers and celebrities definitely overpaid.

Nurses, teachers, military etc are underpaid.

Why do you think teachers are underpaid?

[Mikey]

Why do you think teachers are underpaid?

I just feel that they work a good amount of hours at school and also have to do work when home aswell including planning classes for the whole week and doing marking for god knows how many classes. They also have to put up with cheeky and horrible children practically every single day. :)

I think teachers do alot for the pupils and actually take their time to explain things. Quite a few of the teachers at my school let you come before school a good hour before school and what time you want after school to help you do work and other stuff like applications and CVs if needed. If there wasn't teachers to support me and push me through school life then I wouldn't be where I am today tbh.

(well the teachers when I was at school)

[Kardan]

I just feel that they work a good amount of hours at school and also have to do work when home aswell including planning classes for the whole week and doing marking for god knows how many classes. They also have to put up with cheeky and horrible children practically every single day. :)

I think teachers do alot for the pupils and actually take their time to explain things. Quite a few of the teachers at my school let you come before school a good hour before school and what time you want after school to help you do work and other stuff like applications and CVs if needed. If there wasn't teachers to support me and push me through school life then I wouldn't be where I am today tbh.

(well the teachers when I was at school)

I agree with you that teachers do a lot of hard work then most don't think of, but... isn't that what they get paid for anyway? Where would the government find the money to give a pay rise to every teacher? :P

[Lewis]

doctors, surgeons and so forth are all underpaid compared to footballers...

[Eoin247]

Children - scratch that, PEOPLE - are different not only in ability but also learning style, attention to detail, willingness to co-operate, desire to learn, respect for authority, personal issues, and a whole range of everything else that affects ones learning. To properly gauge a teacher's influence on a class you'd need to know everything about every student as well as having close monitoring of the classroom at all times, which is clearly absurd. Otherwise it's a system of estimates and misinformation which through clerical error or simply pupil disobedience could mean the difference between a teacher being able to support their family or not. It's a highly unnecessary idea with no real bonuses to it since it would cost astronomical amounts more to properly implement it than to continue as things are (or even give teachers a raise nationally) as well as making the teaching profession an extremely risky career that relies on the clientele (ie pupils) rather than the actual abilities of the teacher.

In short, it's ******* stupid

I've pretty much replied to the point already. Adding in (a ton) of emphasizing words and throwing in '******* stupid' does not make it a new argument. Fact is a good teacher can improve any class to at least some extent, while a bad teacher will do the opposite.


The problem is with mathematical modelling is that there are many assumptions made about the situation to make the calculations much easier. In real life, you can't ignore these since they have so much impact on individual situations.

And by the part in bold, what if you have two teachers that are new to teaching, each have taught for just a year. One is a good teacher, but got given a string of bottom set classes and all performed badly with a hard foundation paper, whereas the other is a crap teacher, didn't teach very well but all his classes fluked the exam with an easy higher paper.

That's just two teachers for one year, as you said, it should be looked at over many years, but given that there are 438,000 teachers in England alone, there will be some people that have this happen to them year after year through no fault on their own.

Also with this system, what happens to teachers that go on maternity leave for an extended amount of time? Will they get a bonus for somebody elses work? What about substitute teachers, do they not get a bonus? And what about classes that have multiple teachers? Do they divide their bonus by the number of classes they've taught between them?

As I've said before, there's so many individual situations that no system can fully cover, and even if there was, the grounds of judgement (test performance) isn't even that strong. You can't truly test a teachers ability for high grade performance without top, top students. Just like you can't expect an F1 driver to set quick lap times in a Ford Escort, or somebody in the army to take down multiple enemies with a handgun.

I've said all i could to your points at this stage and we are just going back and forth rewording the same stuff now.

I'll conclude by saying this. I believe that you are making it sound far more complicated than it would actualy be. Sure it will be complicated to some degree, but the most rewarding things in life tend to be the most complicated to achieve. Just think about the complicated technology that allows you to create your next post!

[FlyingJesus]

You haven't covered that point at all, you've been saying that paychecks that rely on generalisations based on wide groupings are a good idea and it's been clearly shown that they aren't. If you'd care to actually respond to what I've said rather than lying that would be fabulous.

[Eoin247]

You haven't covered that point at all, you've been saying that paychecks that rely on generalisations based on wide groupings are a good idea and it's been clearly shown that they aren't. If you'd care to actually respond to what I've said rather than lying that would be fabulous.

I wasn't going to post again. But your attempt to start making this personal by calling me a lier made me reconsider. Im not going to throw insults, but i will give an answer one last time .

Firstly i repeatedly said there are exceptions in extreme cases.

Secondly i said earlier 'Of course each case is different as is every single thing in life, but you don't need to have a thousand different situations individually inspected. If that were the case then it would be impossible to tax people (which is many multiple times more complicated)' - Which answers your point about people being different so this idea wont work.

So i wasnt lying. I know your not going to apologize but it suppose it doesn't matter.

" generalisations based on wide groupings " - That phrase :L

( im on my tablet and some of the font colours look wierd, apologies if its hard to read where i pasted my post)

Anyway, ill leave it at that. If you bring up something new i might reply, but i'm not repeating my argument over and over again.

[FlyingJesus]

You don't need to repeat your argument again and again - it's flat. You absolutely would need individual cases to be thoroughly dealt with because "better" learning is not quantifiable whereas tax brackets quite clearly are, and without it being so over-regulated that it renders itself pointless it would be highly discriminatory and make the job far too risky for most to consider. That, by the way, is not you covering the point at all; it's just you using a false equivalence and ignoring the entire notion of humanity, so yep lying. Quite right, I shan't apologise.

"That phrase" isn't really that laughable, it's making a distinction between close variables (like grouping together wines from certain regions) and wide variables (like grouping together every single child in the country based on whether or not they're disabled)

[dbgtz]

MPs and ministers are overpaid.