Majority of voters support nationalising the energy companies & railways

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/11/04/nationalise-energy-and-rail-companies-say-public/

Majority of voters (including majority of every major party) support nationalisation of the energy and railway companies


The majority of the British public – including the majority of Conservative voters – support nationalising the energy and rail companies

Labour’s plan to freeze energy prices for 20 months has re-ignited the debate over the role of the government in markets, with Conservatives arguing intervention is a ‘con’ while Labour claim the state should ‘reset’ the market. Shadow transport secretary Mary Creagh has even suggested Labour are open to re-nationalising train services.

However, YouGov research for the Centre for Labour and Social Studies finds voters of all politics united in their support for nationalisation of energy and rail.

68% of the public say the energy companies should be run in the public sector, while only 21% say they should remain in private hands. 66% support nationalising the railway companies while 23% think they should be run privately. The British people also tend strongly to prefer a publicly-run National Health Service (as it is now) and a publicly-run Royal Mail (as it was until this year).


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Supporters of nationalising the energy companies include 52% of Conservative voters, and 74% of UKIP voters. And again, 52% of Conservatives are pro-nationalisation of the rail companies, as are 72% of UKIP supporters.


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Though recent Labour and Conservative governments have opened some NHS services to privatisation, 84% of the public say the health service should be run in the public sector. Only 13% of Conservative voters say the NHS should be run privately.

More divisive is the recently privatised Royal Mail, however. While the public support it being run publically by 67%-22%, Conservatives divide almost evenly – by 48%-43%.

Views are also less clear on whether the government should have the power to control prices of more traditionally private markets. The public split 45%-43% in favour of government having the power to control private sector rents, and are opposed to government having the power to control food prices by 55%-35%.


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Rail prices have been rising above inflation at an increasing rate since 2004, and the TUC claim average fares have risen nearly three times faster than average incomes since 2008. Labour nationalised the railways in 1948, and they were returned to the private sector by John Major in 1993. Tony Blair dropped plans to re-nationalise in 1997, but Labour will be launching a review of railway policy within a year.

Utterly depressing findings for people like me who know what nationalisation leads to - such is the tide of public opinion behind nationalisation that Tory, Labour, UKIP and Liberal Democrat supporters all support it by quite a large margin. It's sad that nobody out there is really making a strong case for the free market, and instead the debate is focused solely on 'how/what can government do to make everything better?' when in a lot of cases it's the involvement of the state that is at fault.

With Boris Johnson now advocating a 'living wage' too, the economic future of this country just becomes bleaker and bleaker. You can't legislate prosperity.

Thoughts?

[Ardemax]

I believe the essentials, like gas, electricity and water should be under government control. The "free" market clearly hasn't worked and is literally killing people.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I believe the essentials, like gas, electricity and water should be under government control. The "free" market clearly hasn't worked and is literally killing people.

Isn't that what government-run, filthy NHS hospitals do? I've always said that if the NHS was a private company and behaved as it does, it'd be forced to close - whether it's killing people intentionally and harvesting organs (Liverpool Care Pathway, Alder Hay scandal) or just death by neglect and unclean hospitals.

Added to all that though, couldn't you class food/fuel as an essential too? Do we really want price controls on bread and petrol again? problem with this debate now is that people are forgetting what state-run 'essentials' were like along with the events that led to the Winter of Discontent.


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Says it all. :P

[scottish]

Isn't that what government-run, filthy NHS hospitals do? I've always said that if the NHS was a private company and behaved as it does, it'd be forced to close - whether it's killing people intentionally and harvesting organs (Liverpool Care Pathway, Alder Hay scandal) or just death by neglect and unclean hospitals.

Added to all that though, couldn't you class food/fuel as an essential too? Do we really want price controls on bread and petrol again? problem with this debate now is that people are forgetting what state-run 'essentials' were like along with the events that led to the Winter of Discontent.

Fuel isn't essential, you can make a living fine without a car with public transport.

Food is essential but can't really compare it to gas/electricity as theres countless substitutes, i'd imagine thus uproar is caused by the 9% increase in gas/electricity prices even though their costs have dropped? (not 9% but you get the point, average)..

[-:Undertaker:-]

Fuel isn't essential, you can make a living fine without a car with public transport.

If you cannot travel to work and earn money then how do you pay for everything else?


Food is essential but can't really compare it to gas/electricity as theres countless substitutes, i'd imagine thus uproar is caused by the 9% increase in gas/electricity prices even though their costs have dropped? (not 9% but you get the point, average)..

Without food you cannot live, food prices for example have been skyrocketing (as with everything else) because real inflation (which the official figures do not count food, fuel, gas, water prices etc) is spiralling out of control as the Bank of England is printing money Weimar Republic-style.

That's mostly what people are missing the point on: it's the money supply that is at fault and causing runaway inflation which is sending living costs so high. Plus, there's also the rumour that the prices have gone up because Miliband has been talking about capping prices.

Either way though, often it's more than simply 'the rich are out to be greedy' - I would explain water prices being so high due to government interference rather than water companies being greedy but I don't wanna turn this into a huge essay. :P

[Ardemax]

Isn't that what government-run, filthy NHS hospitals do? I've always said that if the NHS was a private company and behaved as it does, it'd be forced to close - whether it's killing people intentionally and harvesting organs (Liverpool Care Pathway, Alder Hay scandal) or just death by neglect and unclean hospitals.

Added to all that though, couldn't you class food/fuel as an essential too? Do we really want price controls on bread and petrol again? problem with this debate now is that people are forgetting what state-run 'essentials' were like along with the events that led to the Winter of Discontent.


http://www.ezimba.com/work/131106C/ezimba16796338403300.png

Says it all. :P

Like scottish has said, I wouldn't count those as essentials.

You can hardly tell me that these private firms (the 'big' six) are showing a good example of a free market; what with all this price fixing. The government needs to look out for its people and quite frankly by allowing these companies to get away with daylight robbery is just absurd.

I appreciate you hate the NHS, but myself and the majority of Britons (and quite a lot of overseas bystanders) think it would be horrific for it to be privatised. No ridiculous charges (£100+) for a quick checkup, please. I mean everything would be a lot easier if it was privatised... it would kill off the poor in huge numbers which in turn would save us heaps of money.

[scottish]

If you cannot travel to work and earn money then how do you pay for everything else?



Without food you cannot live, food prices for example have been skyrocketing (as with everything else) because real inflation (which the official figures do not count food, fuel, gas, water prices etc) is spiralling out of control as the Bank of England is printing money Weimar Republic-style.

That's mostly what people are missing the point on: it's the money supply that is at fault and causing runaway inflation which is sending living costs so high. Plus, there's also the rumour that the prices have gone up because Miliband has been talking about capping prices.

Either way though, often it's more than simply 'the rich are out to be greedy' - I would explain water prices being so high due to government interference rather than water companies being greedy but I don't wanna turn this into a huge essay. :P

By doing what a lot of people in the world do, use public transport.

Having your own car isn't the only way to commute.

I didn't say food isn't essential, I said theres many substitutes to food (you don't need to buy this item you can buy that), where as you need gas/electricity.

But yeah i'm not having a say in the original discussion as I cba with a long boring argument with you, i'm just saying you can't compare fuel/food to gas/electricity atm.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Like scottish has said, I wouldn't count those as essentials.

You can hardly tell me that these private firms (the 'big' six) are showing a good example of a free market; what with all this price fixing. The government needs to look out for its people and quite frankly by allowing these companies to get away with daylight robbery is just absurd.

I don't at all, just as the water companies aren't showing a good example nor are the bus companies - because in reality they haven't been properly privatised. Take bus companies for example, it's a monopoly backed by the state - a real free market would be your Dad being allowed to buy an old bus and run a school time route for half the price of Arriva, meaning Arriva would have competition on that route and would be forced to bring down the price.


I appreciate you hate the NHS, but myself and the majority of Britons (and quite a lot of overseas bystanders) think it would be horrific for it to be privatised. No ridiculous charges (£100+) for a quick checkup, please.

No real argument here, just the usual drivel that we'd all be dead if it wasn't for our wonderful government providing us with 'free' filthy healthcare which isn't free at all and which you pay a lot more for poor quality care in taxation than you would directly for private healthcare which is miles better.

Even my hardcore socialist history teacher stopped believing in this myth when she had to undergo (what we guessed) was cancer treatment on the NHS.


I mean everything would be a lot easier if it was privatised... it would kill off the poor in huge numbers which in turn would save us heaps of money.

That never happened before the NHS came into being so why would it happen in 2013?


By doing what a lot of people in the world do, use public transport.

I'd love to know, for my Dad and his job, what bus services you can find that run from Liverpool to Staffordshire. The modern world isn't Coronation Street where everybody works in the same street as they live.


I didn't say food isn't essential, I said theres many substitutes to food (you don't need to buy this item you can buy that), where as you need gas/electricity.

Confused at what you mean here.


But yeah i'm not having a say in the original discussion as I cba with a long boring argument with you, i'm just saying you can't compare fuel/food to gas/electricity atm.

Out of those, which is most important? Food.

So as food prices are rising, surely your solution should be that the government nationalise ASDA, Tescos et el.

[Ardemax]

I don't at all, just as the water companies aren't showing a good example nor are the bus companies - because in reality they haven't been properly privatised. Take bus companies for example, it's a monopoly backed by the state - a real free market would be your Dad being allowed to buy an old bus and run a school time route for half the price of Arriva, meaning Arriva would have competition on that route and would be forced to bring down the price.

How is there a monopoly on gas/electricity companies if there are six 'big' companies?


No real argument here, just the usual drivel that we'd all be dead if it wasn't for our wonderful government providing us with 'free' filthy healthcare which isn't free at all and which you pay a lot more for poor quality care in taxation than you would directly for private healthcare which is miles better.

Even my hardcore socialist history teacher stopped believing in this myth when she had to undergo (what we guessed) was cancer treatment on the NHS.

I know it's not strictly 'free', but it is a hell of a lot cheaper than paying for everything individually. Let's ask out friends from across the pond...


That never happened before the NHS came into being so why would it happen in 2013?

Look at America. People are dying because they can't afford the healthcare they need. If you mentality is that it's every man for himself, then so be it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

How is there a monopoly on gas/electricity companies if there are six 'big' companies?

Because it's state backed.

I just clicked from my economics last year, it's an oligopoly. :P


I know it's not strictly 'free', but it is a hell of a lot cheaper than paying for everything individually. Let's ask out friends from across the pond...

It isn't cheaper, check healthcare plans and the markets. I have read the past few days that there are student/young people healthcare cover for sums such as $100 a year - which, since Obamacare was introduced this month, many have been dropped from their insurance plans because as I explain below, the companies now know they can make shedloads more money by accepting government money over individuals money.

It's the reason for example why the NHS pays £20 for a box of rubber gloves that should only cost £1. Because companies know that they can rip off the state whereas they can't rip off a private company. Result? prices rise and you pay more.


Look at America. People are dying because they can't afford the healthcare they need. If you mentality is that it's every man for himself, then so be it.

Actually that's complete garbage, the US healthcare system, although it has major faults, is still one of the best in the world hence why people fly there from all over the world to have treatment.

The US healthcare system only started turning into a failing system when the government started getting involved in the 1960s - Ron Paul, former Doctor himself, has talked about this has length in his books and videos on YouTube. Once government started getting involved the prices started rising (result of price controls and regulations put on hospitals) and as a result people started falling through the cracks.

One example was Medicare/Medicade. Beforehand, poorer people were offered very low rates (and still are today if you check prices online rather than assuming you know it) and those who could not afford any treatment at all were offered treatment for free as an act of charity by the hospital companies. Then the state stepped in and started offering to pay for the care of the poor. What happened? Hospitals then started raising prices for everybody as they knew that by doing so, they could milk more money out of the government.

The result? prices went up a lot for the poor and middle classes, meaning many could no longer afford healthcare insurance as the healthcare companies much preferred taking a few hundred dollars from the US government rather than a few pounds from a poor individual with a cheap healthcare plan/

[Kardan]

Just to but in, why can't someone's Dad buy an old bus and ferry people around for a cheaper price?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Just to but in, why can't someone's Dad buy an old bus and ferry people around for a cheaper price?

Need a license to do so and only the local council can issue licences and only issues them to one or two bus companies aka corporations to do a particular route. The simple solution is - take the government out of bus routes and let the free market (ie your Dad with an old bus) take care of it.

[Kardan]

Need a license to do so and only the local council can issue licences and only issues them to one or two bus companies aka corporations to do a particular route. The simple solution is - take the government out of bus routes and let the free market (ie your Dad with an old bus) take care of it.

I must be missing something. So what's the difference between 'bus competition' and just simple car sharing for children?