Fmr Labour Home Secretary, David Blunkett, warns Roma immigration 'could cause riots'

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10442352/Roma-migrants-could-cause-riots-in-cities-warns-Blunkett.html

Roma migrants could cause riots in cities, warns Blunkett

British cities could face race riots as an influx of Roma migrants creates “frictions” with local people, David Blunkett warns


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02730/Roma-in-France_2730984b.jpg
A Roma camp in Triel-sur-Seine, near Paris. David Blunkett says Roma people should be discouraged from throwing rubbish and living in over-crowded houses.


British cities could face race riots as an influx of Roma migrants creates “frictions” with local people, David Blunkett, a former home secretary has warned.

Anti-social behaviour by Roma people in his Sheffield constituency has resulted in “understandable tensions” among the indigenous community that must be addressed to avert disorder, Mr Blunkett said.

Roma migrants from Slovakia must “change their culture” and send their children to school, stop dumping rubbish and loitering in the streets in order to soothe tensions, Mr Blunkett said.

Otherwise, the community could “explode” in the same way northern towns were rocked by disorder between Asian and white neighbourhoods in the summer of 2001, Mr Blunkett said.


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Politics/Pix/pictures/2008/07/04/Blunkettlarge.jpg
Concerned: Former Labour Home Secretary David Blunkett warns of civil disrest.


Britain is now home to 200,000 Roma migrants, one of the largest populations in Western Europe, a recent study shows. Most have come from eastern Europe since 2004 and the numbers are growing rapidly. Several hundred families live in the Page Hall district of Sheffield. Locals have set up “street patrols” in response to anti-social behaviour by migrants.

"If everything exploded, if things went wrong, the community would obviously be devastated,” Mr Blunkett said. “We saw this is Bradford, Burnley and Oldham all those years ago when I first became Home Secretary. If things implode it’s not outside here that cops it, it’s the community.”

In 2001, the northern towns of Bradford, Oldham and Burnley saw serious rioting, following tensions between the growing Asian community and far-right groups such as the National Front and the British National Party. Shops were torched, hundreds of police officers injured and more than 200 people jailed.

The cultural gulf between the Roma and the settled community is 50 per cent greater than that between white Britons and Pakistani immigrants who came to Britain a generation ago, Mr Blunkett told BBC Radio.

“The Roma youngsters have come from a background even more different culturally, because they were living in the edge of woods, not going to school, not used to the norms of everyday life. We’ve got to change that,” he said.

Local police must persuade Roma people “not to spend all their time in the street” and discourage them from throwing rubbish and living in over-crowded houses.

Indigenous locals are entitled to “grumble” about the influx of migrants, Mr Blunkett said but must not “stir up hate”.

“I wouldn’t want other people to put up with things I wouldn’t put up with myself,” he said. “This is nothing to do with criticising people about being racist. By all means grumble, but don’t stir up hate. If you set a fire alight, you came from Bradford, you saw it – nobody gained from that.”

He added: “There’s always a danger that you are right on the edge of the understandable tensions. It’s a cry for help from very, many people: ‘please, for goodness sake, put us back to the semblance we had before’,” he said.

In 2011 official estimates suggested “relatively few Roma citizens” lived in the UK.

The Government has is “head in the sand” over the true numbers and is failing to take advantage of European Union funding to help cope with migration, Mr Blunkett said.

Asked about his own policies for handling migrants while Home Secretary, Mr Blunkett said: “They weren’t as brilliant as I would have liked, but they were there.”

Local charities have done a “phenomenal job” in bringing the communities together, he added.

Hmm that's funny, imagine if Nigel Farage had said something like this even though it's 100% true - he'd be labelled a racist, scaremongering, 'stirring up tension' etc.

So there we have it. From January 2014 the borders will open up to Romania and Bulgaria - countries containing 29m very poor people. Now you could ask, well why aren't the government doing anything about this? Well, because we're in the EU and this is a result of EU open borders.

So what do you think? Is Blunkett right to warn and should the borders be opened or not?

[AgnesIO]

Of coursrimmigration should be controlled but is no one else fed up of this constant scaremongering, i mean for goodness sake, Britain is not the only country in the EU for these people to go if they so choose to; and hasn't it already been suggested than the Romanians have other interests than Britain?

More to the point, should we really be accepting something from a former Labour Home Secretary; someone who is obviously going to take every opportunity he possibly can to attack the current coalition?

Sent from my HTC One X

[-:Undertaker:-]

Of coursrimmigration should be controlled but is no one else fed up of this constant scaremongering, i mean for goodness sake, Britain is not the only country in the EU for these people to go if they so choose to; and hasn't it already been suggested than the Romanians have other interests than Britain?

So you think very poor Roma will go to say, bankrupt Portugal or Spain?

Britain isn't known as treasure island for nothing you know.


More to the point, should we really be accepting something from a former Labour Home Secretary; someone who is obviously going to take every opportunity he possibly can to attack the current coalition?

That would usually be true, however you have to bare in mind that Blunkett was Home Office Secretary when the gates to Poland and Eastern Europe were opened up - back then the Government, including Blunkett, dismissed MigrationWatch, Nigel Farage etc and said that only 13,000 Poles a year would come. Guess how many came over a period of about 5 years? 800,000. It seems to me that Blunkett isn't scaremongering, he's finally telling the truth.

At the end of the day our dilemma is very simple. We do not know how many people are going to come, the Government refuses to release estimates because they will probably be horrifically wrong again - so what do you do? do you take the risk and open the borders or refuse to open the borders in the first place?

The last time I checked youth unemployment in this country was 1m+. We do not NEED anymore low skilled workers.

[Chippiewill]

So you think very poor Roma will go to say, bankrupt Portugal or Spain?
No. Probably France, Germany, the rest of eastern europe.


Britain isn't known as treasure island for nothing you know.
..it's not known as Treasure island at all. Also you said yourself there are already too many low skilled workers..


The last time I checked youth unemployment in this country was 1m+. We do not NEED anymore low skilled workers.

Why go somewhere with no jobs?

[-:Undertaker:-]

No. Probably France, Germany, the rest of eastern europe.

So is that why there are camps in France in the port of Calais waiting to come over here?

Simple reason: our welfare state is the most generous.


..it's not known as Treasure island at all. Also you said yourself there are already too many low skilled workers..

From what i've read it is.

I see you've ticked the borders should open though so i'm interested to know how many you expect to come to Britain next year - I mean your all for opening the borders right, so you must have a summary of the numbers and thus the impact on social services, infrastructure, crime etc otherwise you wouldn't blindly want the borders open would you?

This isn't sarcasm btw, you must genuinely know the estimated figures so i'm really interested to know them.


Why go somewhere with no jobs?

Because many of the companies purposely bypass British unemployed and only advertise in an Eastern European language in Eastern Europe.

[Chippiewill]

So is that why there are camps in France in the port of Calais waiting to come over here?
There'll still be a few wanting to come over here, doesn't mean the rest will.


From what i've read it is.
If you read a bunch of articles and books describing immigration as impending doom then I imagine they'd all say that. However as someone who doesn't go out of their way to read articles focussed on portraying immigration as the devils spawn, no I don't think I or most of the population have heard it described as such.


I see you've ticked the borders should open though so i'm interested to know how many you expect to come to Britain next year - I mean your all for opening the borders right, so you must have a summary of the numbers and thus the impact on social services, infrastructure, crime etc otherwise you wouldn't blindly want the borders open would you?

This isn't sarcasm btw, you must genuinely know the estimated figures so i'm really interested to know them.
100,000 give or take.



Because many of the companies purposely bypass British unemployed and only advertise in an Eastern European language in Eastern Europe.Then maybe eastern european workers are better. It's a free market after all. You're not against free markets.. are you?

[FlyingJesus]

Extremely misleading article which seems to be purposefully conflating "Roma" with "Romanian" despite the former actually being a culture of mostly Indian descent with more Romani people living in Spain (whoops yep looks like they would go there after all) than Romania or Bulgaria.

http://i44.tinypic.com/b62ds3.png
http://i41.tinypic.com/o902ki.png

As for "treasure island" the only evidence I can find of Britain ever being named as such is to do with car dealerships making a lot of money on imports... also Shakespeare very often alluded to England as a place full of madmen and murderous kings in his plays, guess we all better do a runner before we get executed huh

[Kardan]

So when all the people from Romania and Bulgaria come over, which countries will we moan about next?

[PinkSocks]

Nothing against Romanian and Bulgarian people I just know there will be a lot of immigration and there isnt enough room :o

[AgnesIO]

Nothing against Romanian and Bulgarian people I just know there will be a lot of immigration and there isnt enough room :o

"I just know"...

.. been reading the Daily Mail or actually looked into research on the subject?

[-:Undertaker:-]

There'll still be a few wanting to come over here, doesn't mean the rest will.

As they said in 2004.


If you read a bunch of articles and books describing immigration as impending doom then I imagine they'd all say that. However as someone who doesn't go out of their way to read articles focussed on portraying immigration as the devils spawn, no I don't think I or most of the population have heard it described as such.

Much of the population wants immigration limited hence why it ranks as one of the top voter concerns in the polling carried out. You wanting open borders with Romania and Bulgaria? your the one in the minority mate, not me.


100,000 give or take.

So where did you get those figures from and what makes you confident these figures are correct this time given that last time 13,000 were predicted and 800,000 came? What is the timeframe for these figures? What are the crime statistics for the estimated number of people to come in?

Did you know that the former head of the Met Police plastic and cheque crime department for example has stated that 92% of ATM crimes in London are committed by Romanian nationals? Also as Fact Check says here (http://fullfact.org/factchecks/romanians_cash_machine_crime-29254), there have been 20,000 arrests of Romanian nationals.


Then maybe eastern european workers are better. It's a free market after all. You're not against free markets.. are you?

...


"You cannot simultaneously have a welfare state and free immigration." - Free market advocate and economist, Milton Friedman

But you know, you've just suggested Romanian nationals may be better. Maybe that's true. But how can they know that a foreign national is better for the job when they haven't given given British people the chance to apply and go for an interview?

It really is no wonder that people turn to extreme groups like the EDL and BNP with this awful attitude you and the three main parties display which you portray British workers as all lazy and not wanting to work. It simply isn't the case.


Extremely misleading article which seems to be purposefully conflating "Roma" with "Romanian" despite the former actually being a culture of mostly Indian descent with more Romani people living in Spain (whoops yep looks like they would go there after all) than Romania or Bulgaria.

As for "treasure island" the only evidence I can find of Britain ever being named as such is to do with car dealerships making a lot of money on imports... also Shakespeare very often alluded to England as a place full of madmen and murderous kings in his plays, guess we all better do a runner before we get executed huh

Roma to my knowledge have Romanian citizenship dear, thus are included in the estimates. The question is of those who are in Romania and face poor treatment - are they going to come here?

Do you not agree with me that the borders should at least not be opened to avoid the same scenario that we had in 2004 when the government predicted 13,000 a year and it ended up around the 800,000 mark over a period of 5 or six years?


So when all the people from Romania and Bulgaria come over, which countries will we moan about next?

Well our stupid politicians next think it'll be a good idea to open the borders to 80m Turks.

[PinkSocks]

"I just know"...

.. been reading the Daily Mail or actually looked into research on the subject?

Lets face it do you know many people who want to emmigrate from England to Romania and Bulgaria, when the Borders opened to Eastern Europeans (Poland etc.) we saw an influx of 800,000 economic migrants, 500,000 of which from Poland all looking for work in a country with high unemployment. I dont think we can endure another mass migration.

[AgnesIO]

Lets face it do you know many people who want to emmigrate from England to Romania and Bulgaria, when the Borders opened to Eastern Europeans (Poland etc.) we seen an influx of 800,000 economic migrants, 500,000 of which from Poland all looking for work in a country with high unemployment. I dont think we can endure another mass migration.

Tell you what, the people who do leave from England to Bulgaria etc will make an absolute fortune if they are smart. I think it is about time the British stopped complaining and asking WHY British firms are employing Eastern Europeans. It isn't simply to do with pay; I've talked to farmers who say they WANT to employ British people, but they then question why on earth would they British people MORE money who will then put in very little effort. I got a job after an 8 month search; but now coming to the end of this job I've been told if I EVER want to go back I will have a job, if I EVER need a reference I can contact the manager directly; this is down to my work ethic - something too many British people lack, whilst they continually moan about the "bloody Eastern Europeans".

----

I think your signature may be too big too.

[PinkSocks]

Its not all down to jobs, I would like to recommend a documentary to you that aired on bbc two (it was called here come the poles). It shows the other problems that new languages have caused in schools, we spend extra money hiring translators in schools, doctors practices, alongside police officers, in the documentary you see a school where only one child speaks English as their first language. Its a fact that the Romania and Bulgaria will see more of the benefits than we will, im sorry to tell you.

[AgnesIO]

Its not all down to jobs, I would like to recommend a documentary to you that aired on bbc two (it was called here come the poles). It shows the other problems that new languages have caused in schools, we spend extra money hiring translators in schools, doctors practices, alongside police officers, in the documentary you see a school where only one child speaks English as their first language. Its a fact that the Romania and Bulgaria will see more of the benefits than we will, im sorry to tell you.

I replied to your post about jobs, now you're saying it isn't all about jobs... in all seriousness, there is NOTHING that states we have to have school signs in Polish or Arabic etc - it is ridiculous that we do this, and I totally agree it should be stopped.

Do you want me to tell you another fact? Eastern European immigrants have paid MORE into our tax system than they have ever taken out, and it is about time people started recognising the benefits they bring AS WELL as the negatives.

[PinkSocks]

Tell you what, the people who do leave from England to Bulgaria etc will make an absolute fortune if they are smart. I think it is about time the British stopped complaining and asking WHY British firms are employing Eastern Europeans. It isn't simply to do with pay; I've talked to farmers who say they WANT to employ British people, but they then question why on earth would they British people MORE money who will then put in very little effort. I got a job after an 8 month search; but now coming to the end of this job I've been told if I EVER want to go back I will have a job, if I EVER need a reference I can contact the manager directly; this is down to my work ethic - something too many British people lack, whilst they continually moan about the "bloody Eastern Europeans".

----

I think your signature may be too big too.

Its not all down to jobs, I would like to recommend a documentary to you that aired on bbc two (it was called here come the poles). It shows the other problems that new languages have caused in schools, we spend extra money hiring translators in schools, doctors practices, alongside police officers, in the documentary you see a school where only one child speaks English as their first language. Its a fact that the Romania and Bulgaria will see more of the benefits than we will, im sorry to tell you.

- - - Updated - - -


So when all the people from Romania and Bulgaria come over, which countries will we moan about next?

Which ever country is next to join the EU i guess :-P

[AgnesIO]

Its not all down to jobs, I would like to recommend a documentary to you that aired on bbc two (it was called here come the poles). It shows the other problems that new languages have caused in schools, we spend extra money hiring translators in schools, doctors practices, alongside police officers, in the documentary you see a school where only one child speaks English as their first language. Its a fact that the Romania and Bulgaria will see more of the benefits than we will, im sorry to tell you.

Check my post above this one - you accidentally posted twice :)

[FlyingJesus]

Roma to my knowledge have Romanian citizenship dear, thus are included in the estimates

Then your knowledge is, as often, well off the mark. Why on earth would you assume that the Romani all have Romanian citizenship? Those who live in Romania may well do just like they may have citizenship of whichever country they live in and gain legal rights in, but this article is explicitly stating "Roma" instead of Romanian, and the two are not the same. This is a move to open up Romania and Bulgaria and whatever your views on that it is misleading to say that this is a Romani issue, especially since the two countries have on average a 4% Romani population - it's like saying if Brits are allowed to emigrate to Korea the country will suddenly be full of black people

[PinkSocks]

I replied to your post about jobs, now you're saying it isn't all about jobs... in all seriousness, there is NOTHING that states we have to have school signs in Polish or Arabic etc - it is ridiculous that we do this, and I totally agree it should be stopped.

Do you want me to tell you another fact? Eastern European immigrants have paid MORE into our tax system than they have ever taken out, and it is about time people started recognising the benefits they bring AS WELL as the negatives.

I understand what you're saying, I think it would be a big mistake to open our borders to yet more countries where the people wanting to come to the UK is higher than those who want to leave, i hope you agree that the system is practically one way. It seems ridiculous when we're already FULL, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVP0RRvl2WE) (watch from 1:26) Although our birth rate is under control, nearly 500,000 immigrants arrived in the UK last year, according the world Atlas (http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/populations/ctydensityh.htm) we have a higher population density than CHINA. This is going to increase competition for jobs, regarding your point that Eastern Europeans have a better work ethic, its one thing to have healthy competition but its another to be completely stripped of work in your own country.

[AgnesIO]

I understand what you're saying, I think it would be a big mistake to open our borders to yet more countries where the people wanting to come to the UK is higher than those who want to leave, i hope you agree that the system is practically one way. It seems ridiculous when we're already FULL, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVP0RRvl2WE) (watch from 1:26) Although our birth rate is under control, nearly 500,000 immigrants arrived in the UK last year, according the world Atlas (http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/populations/ctydensityh.htm) we have a higher population density than CHINA. This is going to increase competition for jobs, regarding your point that Eastern Europeans have a better work ethic, its one thing to have healthy competition but its another to be completely stripped of work in your own country.

We're not technically full; Japan for example has a population TWICE the size of ours, and yet it is only about 50% larger in area. I am certainly not saying we could do with more people, but we certainly are not full. Also, your comparison of China is not really fair; they have a gigantic population but have you not seen the size of their area?

If I run a business and I can hire a Polish person who will work twice as hard as a British worker, I can tell you now who I will be employing.

[PinkSocks]

We're not technically full; Japan for example has a population TWICE the size of ours, and yet it is only about 50% larger in area. I am certainly not saying we could do with more people, but we certainly are not full. Also, your comparison of China is not really fair; they have a gigantic population but have you not seen the size of their area?

If I run a business and I can hire a Polish person who will work twice as hard as a British worker, I can tell you now who I will be employing.

Yes fine, but you cannot generalise to everybody because some British people could be the hardest workers you know and the Polish workers could be the slackers. It must frustrate you to some degree, knowing that you cant find work in your own country. British people have no connections in Poland, its hard for us the move and find work, however the Polish people have connections back in Poland and they are able to work in their own country.

[Mark]

What would actually happen if we refused them entering the country, or is that not possible? This topic really frustrates me, why do we bother allowing these countries into the EU and why has our country not done something about our immigration laws as well as our membership in the EU

[-:Undertaker:-]

Tell you what, the people who do leave from England to Bulgaria etc will make an absolute fortune if they are smart. I think it is about time the British stopped complaining and asking WHY British firms are employing Eastern Europeans. It isn't simply to do with pay; I've talked to farmers who say they WANT to employ British people, but they then question why on earth would they British people MORE money who will then put in very little effort. I got a job after an 8 month search; but now coming to the end of this job I've been told if I EVER want to go back I will have a job, if I EVER need a reference I can contact the manager directly; this is down to my work ethic - something too many British people lack, whilst they continually moan about the "bloody Eastern Europeans".

So before we opened the door to Poland in 2004, did the cabbages on the field rot because there was nobody picking them? Don't talk such utter rubbish. I would love you to stand in a job centre and start calling the British unemployed all lazy and ****less and we'd see what the reaction is - as the politicians think the same as you, maybe they ought to declare on national television just what they really think of British workers and youngsters.

Are you saying that the 1m unemployed British youngsters are all lazy? But you know, let's say they are all lazy - why import workers? the correct thing to do would be to tighten the benefits system and thereby FORCE British workers out into those jobs 'that nobody wants to do' - but as I said before, I don't think it's the case that nobody wants to do the work and it's more the fact that employers prefer employing foreign nationals because they know they can get foreign nationals to work off the books (avoid tax) and pay them far less.


Then your knowledge is, as often, well off the mark. Why on earth would you assume that the Romani all have Romanian citizenship? Those who live in Romania may well do just like they may have citizenship of whichever country they live in and gain legal rights in, but this article is explicitly stating "Roma" instead of Romanian, and the two are not the same. This is a move to open up Romania and Bulgaria and whatever your views on that it is misleading to say that this is a Romani issue, especially since the two countries have on average a 4% Romani population - it's like saying if Brits are allowed to emigrate to Korea the country will suddenly be full of black people

Did I say all Roma had Romanian citizenship? I made the point that when we talk of people in Romania and Bulgaria, the Roma make up a part of the Romanian population and are therefore classed as Romanian.

It's pretty simple stuff.


What would actually happen if we refused them entering the country, or is that not possible? This topic really frustrates me, why do we bother allowing these countries into the EU and why has our country not done something about our immigration laws as well as our membership in the EU

Because the politicians aren't effected by mass uncontrolled immigration. It isn't the areas they live in where you don't hear your own language being spoken anymore. It isn't the areas they live in that are flooded with criminals from abroad. It isn't the areas they live in where they have to wait twice as long for a council house behind people who came here yesterday. It isn't the areas which they live in where young Britons can't get jobs. They're totally totally out of touch and sheltered from what everybody else experiences - all they experience from mass immigration are cheap nannies and cheap waiters when they are in the capital and they couldn't give a damn about the effects on anybody else.

[Chippiewill]

As they said in 2004.
The future does not resemble the past.


Much of the population wants immigration limited hence why it ranks as one of the top voter concerns in the polling carried out. You wanting open borders with Romania and Bulgaria? your the one in the minority mate, not me.
I wasn't saying I was a majority in my opinion, just most people don't sit around in the ******** on immigration echo chamber all day.


So where did you get those figures from and what makes you confident these figures are correct this time given that last time 13,000 were predicted and 800,000 came? What is the timeframe for these figures? What are the crime statistics for the estimated number of people to come in?
I made them up.


Did you know that the former head of the Met Police plastic and cheque crime department for example has stated that 92% of ATM crimes in London are committed by Romanian nationals? Also as Fact Check says here (http://fullfact.org/factchecks/romanians_cash_machine_crime-29254), there have been 20,000 arrests of Romanian nationals.
Pretty discriminatory of you to pass judgement on all Romanians for the actions of a few.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The future does not resemble the past.

When it comes to our politicians, i'll judge them on their record rather than more of their promises thank you very much. The fact the government is refusing to release or give estimates says it all on how many they think will arrive from January 2014 onwards.


I wasn't saying I was a majority in my opinion, just most people don't sit around in the ******** on immigration echo chamber all day.

That's why the discussion is now being forced into the news because we're going to discuss whether or not it's a sensible idea to put our social services, police force, social cohesion and employment figures under more pressure and strain. The political class don't want to talk about it but the issue isn't going to go away.

The politicians are there to serve us, not ignore us.


I made them up.

So you don't have figures, the government doesn't have figures (or refuses to release them) yet here we are about to open the borders up to a total of 29 million very poor people?

Madness, utter madness.


Pretty discriminatory of you to pass judgement on all Romanians for the actions of a few.

Like every other country in the world? If you have a criminal record and you try to enter the United States then you will be denied entry, cry discrimination all you want - American citizens and their safety come first as should those of Britons.

[Kardan]

Yes fine, but you cannot generalise to everybody because some British people could be the hardest workers you know and the Polish workers could be the slackers. It must frustrate you to some degree, knowing that you cant find work in your own country. British people have no connections in Poland, its hard for us the move and find work, however the Polish people have connections back in Poland and they are able to work in their own country.

If so many British teenagers actually got qualifications then we wouldn't need to employ so many people with qualifications from other countries. The first method to deal with unemployment in my mind, is the education system.

You people might say "Oh, the Polish are taking all our jobs!", well, if people got qualifications, then maybe they'd stand a better chance. Employers will pick who is the best candidate, not because someone is British.

[-:Undertaker:-]

If so many British teenagers actually got qualifications then we wouldn't need to employ so many people with qualifications from other countries. The first method to deal with unemployment in my mind, is the education system.

You people might say "Oh, the Polish are taking all our jobs!", well, if people got qualifications, then maybe they'd stand a better chance. Employers will pick who is the best candidate, not because someone is British.

How are they doing that if they are only advertising the jobs in a foreign language in a foreign country?

[Kardan]

the Roma make up a part of the Romanian population and are therefore classed as Romanian.



So, am I right in saying then, that chavs are classed as British, mass murdering school shooters are classed as American and grumpy tennis players are Scottish?

I think that's the point being made. Romania and Romani people aren't equivalent.

- - - Updated - - -


How are they doing that if they are only advertising the jobs in a foreign language in a foreign country?

...Well, couldn't I say the same about places that advertise in English and only in the UK? Anyway, the vast majority of companies in the UK will advertise in English and advertise in the UK, assuming of course that the job description asks for that. If you are looking for a translator, or a chef specialising in Polish cuisine, then clearly things are likely to be different.

I must say, I haven't heard of any companies offering their jobs only for another country in a foreign language, so I would like to see some examples so I can read up on it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

So, am I right in saying then, that chavs are classed as British, mass murdering school shooters are classed as American and grumpy tennis players are Scottish?

I think that's the point being made. Romania and Romani people aren't equivalent.

Wow that's a pretty discriminatory remark towards the Roma people isn't it? Nevertheless, they both hold the same citizienship therefore when we're talking of the door opening to Romania we are talking about the door opening to Roma and the run-of-the-mill Romanians. Is that simple enough for everyone to understand?

But moving on from that diversion and I notice you haven't addressed my point. You claim it's a level playing field with uneducated or lazy British youngsters simply losing out to foreign workers, yet fail to understand that many of the companies are totally bypassing British youngster and are employing foreign workers directly because foreign workers are willing to work off the books for below the minimum wage and thus avoids tax.

Is this fair to British workers? it's not and you know it so don't pretend the playing field is level.


...Well, couldn't I say the same about places that advertise in English and only in the UK? Anyway, the vast majority of companies in the UK will advertise in English and advertise in the UK, assuming of course that the job description asks for that. If you are looking for a translator, or a chef specialising in Polish cuisine, then clearly things are likely to be different.

I must say, I haven't heard of any companies offering their jobs only for another country in a foreign language, so I would like to see some examples so I can read up on it.

You could say it but you'd look a fool as you seemingly don't understand that one of the prime aims of a country should be to get unemployment down (especially youth unemployment) so that in future we have a skilled home-grown workforce that is capable of running an economy and creating wealth. Importing workers is a sticking plaster over a wound.

But again, this whole debate is flawed to begin with - it's claimed that British youngsters don't want to do the jobs yet were the fruit and veg rotting in the fields of southern England pre-2004? no they were not. British people were working on those farms and picking the fruit and veg.

If Britons picked it back then, Britons (especially with a lack of jobs in 2013) are perfectly capable of doing so again.

[Chippiewill]

When it comes to our politicians, i'll judge them on their record rather than more of their promises thank you very much. The fact the government is refusing to release or give estimates says it all on how many they think will arrive from January 2014 onwards.So if you're not going to trust estimates why should they bother publishing them.


So you don't have figures, the government doesn't have figures (or refuses to release them) yet here we are about to open the borders up to a total of 29 million very poor people?
29 million people, the vast majority of which have better places to go. If a 100,000 romanians want to come to the UK then it's fine by me, it's a long way to come though so I doubt it.


Like every other country in the world? If you have a criminal record and you try to enter the United States then you will be denied entry, cry discrimination all you want - American citizens and their safety come first as should those of Britons.Not a fair analogy. A fair analogy would be that I can have a criminal record and still move from California to Nevada no problem.

[Kardan]

Wow that's a pretty discriminatory remark towards the Roma people isn't it? Nevertheless, they both hold the same citizienship therefore when we're talking of the door opening to Romania we are talking about the door opening to Roma and the run-of-the-mill Romanians. Is that simple enough for everyone to understand?

But moving on from that diversion and I notice you haven't addressed my point. You claim it's a level playing field with uneducated or lazy British youngsters simply losing out to foreign workers, yet fail to understand that many of the companies are totally bypassing British youngster and are employing foreign workers directly because foreign workers are willing to work off the books for below the minimum wage and thus avoids tax.

Is this fair to British workers? it's not and you know it so don't pretend the playing field is level.

Why are you focusing on Romani people then? Just because a small group of Romani people live in Romania, we are also opening doors to the chavvy Romanians, the rich Romanians, the Christian Romanians, the Muslim Romanians, the gay Romanians etc. etc.

4% of Romanians are Romani, and not all Romani people live in Romania. So quite clearly Romani =/= Romania.

[-:Undertaker:-]

So if you're not going to trust estimates why should they bother publishing them.

I don't trust them, but the fact they haven't published an official estimate tells you everything you need to know. The truth is that the government either won't release the information because the numbers expected are already high, or, the numbers have been made to look soft and the government refuses to release them incase what happened back in 2004 is repeated and the government look like liars again.

If there's nothing to worry about then why won't the government release any figures?


29 million people, the vast majority of which have better places to go. If a 100,000 romanians want to come to the UK then it's fine by me, it's a long way to come though so I doubt it.

It's fine by you that 100,000 people (a quarter the size of Liverpool) can suddenly arrive in our country and claim from the welfare, benefits system and be treated on the NHS? it's fine by you that 100,000 people can come in despite the fact we may not be in need of 95% of their skills? it's fine by you that areas of our country will be completely changed and that people will feel alienated in their own areas? it's fine by you that 100,000 people may come into this country of which a vast majority could be criminals?

Sure it's fine by you - just as with the politicians, aslong as it doesn't effect you.


Not a fair analogy. A fair analogy would be that I can have a criminal record and still move from California to Nevada no problem.

The United States is a sovereign state. The United Kingdom is not Romania. See, this is how demented you are on this - i'm arguing that it's unwise to allow potential criminals into our country as we already have enough of our own, and you - incredibly - are actually arguing against that.


Why are you focusing on Romani people then? Just because a small group of Romani people live in Romania, we are also opening doors to the chavvy Romanians, the rich Romanians, the Christian Romanians, the Muslim Romanians, the gay Romanians etc. etc.

4% of Romanians are Romani, and not all Romani people live in Romania. So quite clearly Romani =/= Romania.

Have I wrote once in this thread that I believe Romania (minus the Roma) and Bulgaria should have open borders with this country? No, I have not. I have stated quite clearly that the borders with Romania (including the Roma) and Bulgaria should not be opened. Now, is that simple enough to understand or what?

Let's make it simple.

Romanian citizens (which includes Roma) + Bulgarian citizens = I would not allow open orders with either.

Get it? and again - no response concerning British workers. Your quick to throw insults at the British unemployed and our youngsters yet when challenged you have nothing to say in response.

[Kardan]

Wow that's a pretty discriminatory remark towards the Roma people isn't it? Nevertheless, they both hold the same citizienship therefore when we're talking of the door opening to Romania we are talking about the door opening to Roma and the run-of-the-mill Romanians. Is that simple enough for everyone to understand?

But moving on from that diversion and I notice you haven't addressed my point. You claim it's a level playing field with uneducated or lazy British youngsters simply losing out to foreign workers, yet fail to understand that many of the companies are totally bypassing British youngster and are employing foreign workers directly because foreign workers are willing to work off the books for below the minimum wage and thus avoids tax.

Is this fair to British workers? it's not and you know it so don't pretend the playing field is level.



You could say it but you'd look a fool as you seemingly don't understand that one of the prime aims of a country should be to get unemployment down (especially youth unemployment) so that in future we have a skilled home-grown workforce that is capable of running an economy and creating wealth. Importing workers is a sticking plaster over a wound.

But again, this whole debate is flawed to begin with - it's claimed that British youngsters don't want to do the jobs yet were the fruit and veg rotting in the fields of southern England pre-2004? no they were not. British people were working on those farms and picking the fruit and veg.

If Britons picked it back then, Britons (especially with a lack of jobs in 2013) are perfectly capable of doing so again.

So to tackle youth unemployment we need to get qualifications and work skills improved, because I'm pretty sure the fruit and veg aren't rotting in southern England. Those jobs are already taken.

- - - Updated - - -


it's fine by you that 100,000 people may come into this country of which a vast majority could be criminals?

Umm... What? So basically you're saying: "You're foreign, you're a criminal"

Surely that's as bad as me saying: "You're black, you're a criminal"

[AgnesIO]

-:Undertaker:-, can you provide a link to an article that actually names these British firms offering jobs ONLY in a foreign language? Can you also link to the news articles? And no, I don't want a link (like I found myself) of Nigel Farage telling me this is happening.

Sent from my HTC One X

[AgnesIO]

-:Undertaker:-, can you provide a link to an article that actually names these British firms offering jobs ONLY in a foreign language? Can you also link to the news articles? And no, I don't want a link (like I found myself) of Nigel Farage telling me this is happening.

Sent from my HTC One X



Sent from my HTC One X

[Kardan]

Blah blah blah

So you say that many companies employ foreign workers because they will work for below minimum wage. Can you give me examples of these many, many, many companies? I mean there must be thousands if that is the main reason that the British youth are unemployed, and not because further education rates are some of the poorest in developed countries.

[-:Undertaker:-]

So to tackle youth unemployment we need to get qualifications and work skills improved

Well done for dodging the question, let's try again. You claim that British workers and mainly youngsters are either lazy and uneducated and therefore the companies in southern England have no choice but to hire better skilled workers from abroad.

Now my argument is that this is a false argument as many of the companies will only advertise in a foreign language and in a foreign country meaning that although the British workers may be just as right for the job, they don't stand a chance because the job is only being advertised to foreign workers due to the fact that many will work off the books and for under the minimam wage.

So that's not a level playing field, is it?


I'm pretty sure the fruit and veg aren't rotting in southern England. Those jobs are already taken.

And did they rot pre-2004? yes or no.


Umm... What? So basically you're saying: "You're foreign, you're a criminal"

Surely that's as bad as me saying: "You're black, you're a criminal"

http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/Node_Page/images/1314029819767.png

Based on the crime figures from the Met Police, a large proportion of the Romanians who are here are criminal yes. See the FactCheck link I posted earlier.

But whether a large majority are or a small minority are isn't the point - the point is that it is stupid and foolish to allow an open border policy where we are allowing people in who could very well be criminals yet we cannot stop them due to the EU open border policy.

Would a sensible policy not be to have a controlled immigration policy whereby we only allow those in who we need in terms of skills and who do not have a criminal record?


So you say that many companies employ foreign workers because they will work for below minimum wage. Can you give me examples of these many, many, many companies? I mean there must be thousands if that is the main reason that the British youth are unemployed, and not because further education rates are some of the poorest in developed countries.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2483807/Queue-work-Britain-NHS-fast-food-firms-hotel-chains-recruit-cheap-labour-Romania.html

There's some figures in that, i'll dig deeper for others tommorow if you would like.

And you keep bringing up education yet I agree with you - but that is not an excuse for throwing all of the people who have been failed by our crap comprehensive education system onto the scrapheap. If those Britons out of work are capable of picking veg and fruit on the fields or packing in a factory then they should be the ones who are getting the jobs and not Eastern Europeans.

In the words of Gordon Brown - British jobs for British workers.

[FlyingJesus]

Dan you seem to be missing the point entirely on my post - I wasn't commenting on whether or not "the doors" to this country should be opened, I was expressing disbelief at the fact that less than 4% of the population of a country are being targeted in this article and that it's entirely wrong to to call this a Roma immigration when the Romani can and do already immigrate regardless of what happens in Romania. When you attempted to be clever by saying "Roma to my knowledge have Romanian citizenship dear, thus are included in the estimates" it was in direct response (at least that's what I thought the quote feature was for) to me saying that Romani and Romanian aren't the same thing, and if it doesn't show that you thought them to be one and the same then it was just you completely disregarding the point to state an obvious and unnecessary fact that actually had nothing to do with my point.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Dan you seem to be missing the point entirely on my post - I wasn't commenting on whether or not "the doors" to this country should be opened, I was expressing disbelief at the fact that less than 4% of the population of a country are being targeted in this article and that it's entirely wrong to to call this a Roma immigration when the Romani can and do already immigrate regardless of what happens in Romania. When you attempted to be clever by saying "Roma to my knowledge have Romanian citizenship dear, thus are included in the estimates" it was in direct response (at least that's what I thought the quote feature was for) to me saying that Romani and Romanian aren't the same thing, and if it doesn't show that you thought them to be one and the same then it was just you completely disregarding the point to state an obvious and unnecessary fact that actually had nothing to do with my point.

But the point is that the wave of immigrants to come to this country are, in my opinion, more likely to be Roma for the simple fact that they are the poorest in Romanian society and are essentially treated like dirt. Not only that, but they also have a long history of travelling about and moving.

I'm not bothered whether they're Bulgarian, Roma, Romanian, Greek or Polish - the borders should not be left wide open for anybody and everybody to simply come right in: not when we have creeking social services, a stretched Police force, high youth unemployment and community tensions.

If any of the above want to come in then fine - they should have to apply and be judged on whether we need them, whether our social security can cope, social cohesion concerns and criminal records. If they pass all of those then sure, they can come in - regardless of whether they are Greek or Roma.

[Kardan]

Well done for dodging the question, let's try again. You claim that British workers and mainly youngsters are either lazy and uneducated and therefore the companies in southern England have no choice but to hire better skilled workers from abroad.

Now my argument is that this is a false argument as many of the companies will only advertise in a foreign language and in a foreign country meaning that although the British workers may be just as right for the job, they don't stand a chance because the job is only being advertised to foreign workers due to the fact that many will work off the books and for under the minimam wage.

So that's not a level playing field, is it?



And did they rot pre-2004? yes or no.



http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/Node_Page/images/1314029819767.png

Based on the crime figures from the Met Police, a large proportion of the Romanians who are here are criminal yes. See the FactCheck link I posted earlier.

But whether a large majority are or a small minority are isn't the point - the point is that it is stupid and foolish to allow an open border policy where we are allowing people in who could very well be criminals yet we cannot stop them due to the EU open border policy.

Would a sensible policy not be to have a controlled immigration policy whereby we only allow those in who we need in terms of skills and who do not have a criminal record?

Once again, please provide me with these many, many companies that are full of foreign workers.

As for the 'Most Romanians are criminals' - there was 27,725 arrests of Romanians over 5 years. It's worth noting that Polish nationals were arrested more over that time (And of course Brits).

These arrests are simply for anything. If you are arrested, the number goes up. Out of those 27,725 arrests, 22,332 were not 'Murder, rape, other sexual offences, burglary, robbery and other violent offences'. So we only have just under a fifth of all arrests as serious crimes. Once again, these are the number of ARRESTS, that means you've been suspected of the crime, not charged. So the number of serious crimes *could* be a lot less than 5,393.

In 2009 (Now 4 years ago), 58,000 Romanians lived in the UK. So, if we assume that that number has risen (which I'm sure you'll agree with), and that the number of Romanians arrested (not charged) for serious crimes is at maximum 5,393 - I think we can say that is *NOT* a large majority of Romanians.

Le end.

- - - Updated - - -

Other notes, if you have spent any time in prison, which you would suspect at least some of these 'Romanian criminals' to have done, your application into the UK is refused until a significant number of years has passed. It's not as if anyone can stroll right in.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Once again, please provide me with these many, many companies that are full of foreign workers.

There isn't a list of companies that I can grab off the internet, although it's well known that in the south of England the fields and packing factories are stacked full of Poles doing - as people as yourself constantly repeat - a good job.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7uyX0J38HI

Even the Government admit it (which takes a lot).


As for the 'Most Romanians are criminals' - there was 27,725 arrests of Romanians over 5 years. It's worth noting that Polish nationals were arrested more over that time (And of course Brits).

Where did I say that 'Most Romanians are criminals' - you appear to have quoted or are trying to portray that those are my exact words, can you tell me where I said that exact phrase please? Or did you just make it up as I suspect?


These arrests are simply for anything. If you are arrested, the number goes up. Out of those 27,725 arrests, 22,332 were not 'Murder, rape, other sexual offences, burglary, robbery and other violent offences'. So we only have just under a fifth of all arrests as serious crimes. Once again, these are the number of ARRESTS, that means you've been suspected of the crime, not charged. So the number of serious crimes *could* be a lot less than 5,393.

In 2009 (Now 4 years ago), 58,000 Romanians lived in the UK. So, if we assume that that number has rised (which I'm sure you'll agree with), and that the number of Romanians arrested (not charged) for serious crimes is at maximum 5,393 - I think we can say that is *NOT* a large majority of Romanians.

Le end.

So you think that 27,332 arrests out of 58,000 people over a 5 year period is not something to by concerned about? As for 'oh well its not serious crime' - whether it's murder or theft we still do not need it or want it in our country. Do you understand that concern?


Other notes, if you have spent any time in prison, which you would suspect at least some of these 'Romanian criminals' to have done, your application into the UK is refused until a significant number of years has passed. It's not as if anyone can stroll right in.

That's because, as I understand it, the open borders have not yet come into effect. As I understand, when the borders are opened to Romania and Bulgaria then any EU citizen from those two countries will have as much right to come into this country as you and I do.

And that's one of the reasons why i'm arguing here against opening the borders.

[FlyingJesus]

The Roma move about regardless of the law :P those who don't stay put because they have it good wherever they've found themselves, and the poorest people in Romania are actually remote farmers in small villages. 1/5 of the population live below the poverty line, so it's literally impossible for Roma people to be any sort of majority in that sense since even if every single one of them were totally impoverished they'd make up less than 1/5 of the total number struggling to feed. I'm not going to argue your ideas on immigration control and such because I know where you stand on that already, I just don't like seeing opinions swayed by bad reporting :P

[Kardan]

There isn't a list of companies that I can grab off the internet, although it's well known that in the south of England the fields and packing factories are stacked full of Poles doing - as people as yourself constantly repeat - a good job.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7uyX0J38HI

Even the Government admit it (which takes a lot).



Where did I say that 'Most Romanians are criminals' - you appear to have quoted or are trying to portray that those are my exact words, can you tell me where I said that exact phrase please? Or did you just make it up as I suspect?



So you think that 27,332 arrests out of 58,000 people over a 5 year period is not something to by concerned about? As for 'oh well its not serious crime' - whether it's murder or theft we still do not need it or want it in our country. Do you understand that concern?



That's because, as I understand it, the open borders have not yet come into effect. As I understand, when the borders are opened to Romania and Bulgaria then any EU citizen from those two countries will have as much right to come into this country as you and I do.

And that's one of the reasons why i'm arguing here against opening the borders.

You said 'A large majority' and I'm sure you know what majority means.

Secondly, I managed to get myself some 2011 Census data, which is a better picture (but still not perfect) representation of data from 2008-2012. The number of Romanians is actually 102,000. Once again, it's worth noting that these are the number of arrests, not the number of individual people arrested. One person can be arrested multiple times. And yes, I understand that concern, but heck, I'm sure there's a lot more Brits getting arrested? You make it sound like Romanians are the only people to be arrested. It's not as if their numbers are crazily higher than any other nationality.

[FlyingJesus]

It's ok when British people get arrested because they do it while saluting the Queen

[-:Undertaker:-]

You said 'A large majority' and I'm sure you know what majority means.

So I didn't say that most Romanians are criminals, you just made that up like a liar.

Find the exact (and full quote) you are talking about and show me where it is.


Secondly, I managed to get myself some 2011 Census data, which is a better picture (but still not perfect) representation of data from 2008-2012. The number of Romanians is actually 102,000. Once again, it's worth noting that these are the number of arrests, not the number of individual people arrested. One person can be arrested multiple times. And yes, I understand that concern, but heck, I'm sure there's a lot more Brits getting arrested? You make it sound like Romanians are the only people to be arrested. It's not as if their numbers are crazily higher than any other nationality.

Oh here we go, I knew you'd link it back to the British people. Well firstly - even if British people were being arrested on that same scale and proportion (of which they are not) I would still make the common sense argument that we do not need even more criminals from Romania to add to the problem.

Now is that a sane and logical position or do you have a problem with it?


It's ok when British people get arrested because they do it while saluting the Queen

Then the same question you Tom as I put to Kardan - given that we have criminal problems of our own, do we need to be having run-ins with Romanian criminals on top of our home grown criminal class?

Yes or no.

[Kardan]

So I didn't say that most Romanians are criminals, you just made that up like a liar.

Find the exact (and full quote) you are talking about and show me where it is.



Oh here we go, I knew you'd link it back to the British people. Well firstly - even if British people were being arrested on that same scale and proportion (of which they are not) I would still make the common sense argument that we do not need even more criminals from Romania to add to the problem.

Now is that a sane and logical position or do you have a problem with it?



Then the same question you Tom as I put to Kardan - given that we have criminal problems of our own, do we need to be having run-ins with Romanian criminals on top of our home grown criminal class?

Yes or no.

No, you said 'A vast majority [of Romanians] could be criminals' (http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=790399&p=8042878#post8042878). As I said, we both know the meaning of majority, so what you said is wrong.

And quite clearly we don't need more criminals... But could you not say that about every single country on this planet?

Anyways, I'm off to bed now. I'll let you keep losing sleep over the changes coming in the new year.

[-:Undertaker:-]

No, you said 'A vast majority [of Romanians] could be criminals' (http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=790399&p=8042878#post8042878). As I said, we both know the meaning of majority, so what you said is wrong.

Could. It's a hypothetical dear.

Although on the ATM figures it's already a vast majority at 92% Romanian.


And quite clearly we don't need more criminals... But could you not say that about every single country on this planet?

Yes so don't let them in if they have a criminal record.

Duh? :P


Anyways, I'm off to bed now. I'll let you keep losing sleep over the changes coming in the new year.

If that's your attitude then I really hope you get a taste of what other people in this country are going to have to go through because of your pure arrogance. And i'm talking about crime.

If it's good enough for other people in this country to experience it then it's good enough for you. Maybe being held up at the ATM or having your details stolen will straighten out that head of yours.

[AgnesIO]

How are they doing that if they are only advertising the jobs in a foreign language in a foreign country?

Can you please not avoid my query, in providing some sort of concrete evidence that firms are ONLY advertising jobs abroad in a foreign language? I am expecting an employer offering thousands of jobs, I mean if we are to believe this statement you make it must surely be rather significant?


It's fine by you that 100,000 people (a quarter the size of Liverpool) can suddenly arrive in our country and claim from the welfare, benefits system and be treated on the NHS? it's fine by you that 100,000 people can come in despite the fact we may not be in need of 95% of their skills? it's fine by you that areas of our country will be completely changed and that people will feel alienated in their own areas? it's fine by you that 100,000 people may come into this country of which a vast majority could be criminals?


Oh, of course, 100,000 COULD be criminals. In the same way that if I invite 80,000 British people to Wembley in London using a totally random sample, I'm sure potentially every single person selected COULD be a criminal. Where are your statistics that suggest the vast majority of Romanians coming to Britain are criminals?

Furthermore, how many times do I need to state that Eastern European immigrants pay more into the British economy than they take out. Is this really a difficult concept to grasp?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Can you please not avoid my query, in providing some sort of concrete evidence that firms are ONLY advertising jobs abroad in a foreign language? I am expecting an employer offering thousands of jobs, I mean if we are to believe this statement you make it must surely be rather significant?

Since when could I read Polish?


Oh, of course, 100,000 COULD be criminals. In the same way that if I invite 80,000 British people to Wembley in London using a totally random sample, I'm sure potentially every single person selected COULD be a criminal. Where are your statistics that suggest the vast majority of Romanians coming to Britain are criminals?

Saying 'vast majority' there was wrong of me even though it was a hypothetical, probably thought I was still talking about ATM statistics. I added later on however that whether it's a vast majority, half-half, or even a small minority the borders should still be controlled to stop ANY criminals gaining entry.

Do you agree with that, yes or no?


Furthermore, how many times do I need to state that Eastern European immigrants pay more into the British economy than they take out. Is this really a difficult concept to grasp?

Sorry, where have I denied this? Quote me saying otherwise.

My main concern with uncontrolled immigation is actually social cohesion if you must know.

[FlyingJesus]

I don't believe I ever said we should import criminals, there are measures against doing that already

[-:Undertaker:-]

I don't believe I ever said we should import criminals, there are measures against doing that already

I don't recall saying you did say that, I asked a question.

Under EU rules however with open borders from the impression I have, somebody with a criminal record can enter the United Kingdom freely. So whilst these measures may be in place - although enforced poorly given Romanian crime stats - we'll lose even those thin protections this coming January.

[AgnesIO]

Since when could I read Polish?

I never said you could, although I'm sure there will be simply dozens of news articles referring to the news that jobs are ONLY being advertised in Polish. And if there aren't? I highly doubt the legitimacy of your grand claims. I think you may have confused yourself with jobs being advertised abroad AND in Britain, rather than what you have claimed in this very thread that jobs are ONLY being advertised abroad.


Saying 'vast majority' there was wrong of me even though it was a hypothetical, probably thought I was still talking about ATM statistics. I added later on however that whether it's a vast majority, half-half, or even a small minority the borders should still be controlled to stop ANY criminals gaining entry.

Do you agree with that, yes or no?

Of course I don't want criminals to gain entry, but if you are saying we shouldn't do anything in case of a tiny minority then I'd suggest you are rather loopy. Of course, I don't think you believe that at all.


Sorry, where have I denied this? Quote me saying otherwise.

My main concern with uncontrolled immigation is actually social cohesion if you must know.

"It's fine by you that 100,000 people (a quarter the size of Liverpool) can suddenly arrive in our country and claim from the welfare, benefits system and be treated on the NHS? "

As long as they are paying in more than they are taking out, I fail to see what the issue with immigrants claiming benefits is? I don't understand what could possibly be wrong here - I mean if someone said to me "Can you give me £10, but in the end I'll give you £12 back", I would accept that offer. Yet the way you have written it (scaremongering again, are we?), it would suggest that they are taking taking and taking, yet giving nothing back?

[-:Undertaker:-]

I never said you could, although I'm sure there will be simply dozens of news articles referring to the news that jobs are ONLY being advertised in Polish. And if there aren't? I highly doubt the legitimacy of your grand claims. I think you may have confused yourself with jobs being advertised abroad AND in Britain, rather than what you have claimed in this very thread that jobs are ONLY being advertised abroad.

No dear, no no no you have it completely wrong. I cannot provide links because I cannot read Poland, however I can provide links (as I did earlier with the video for example) where Government ministers and managers of those companies themselves are telling you that companies are asking for the jobs to be advertised only in Eastern Europe.

Not only were companies doing it, the Department for Work and Pensions was also at it -

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/06/jobs-advertised-in-polish-government-_n_2630397.html


The Department of Work and Pensions has taken down a number of job vacancies on the government website after it emerged they were written entirely in Polish.

The labouring roles which were advertised in London list duties which translate as "working on roofs, scraping and demolition of buildings."

At the end of one of the adverts it says: "If you do not talk in Polish, please send an email, do not call," although as the advert is in Polish it is unclear how a non-Polish speaker would be able to do this.

The DWP told the Huffington Post UK jobs are only supposed to be posted in English or Welsh, and this is why the Polish adverts had been taken down.

That was on a bloody GOVERNMENT website. Wake up, now there's a good chap.


Of course I don't want criminals to gain entry, but if you are saying we shouldn't do anything in case of a tiny minority then I'd suggest you are rather loopy. Of course, I don't think you believe that at all.

So then you'll agree with me that having open borders with Romania and Bulgaria next year is stupid, irresponsible and wrong. Yes?


As long as they are paying in more than they are taking out, I fail to see what the issue with immigrants claiming benefits is? I don't understand what could possibly be wrong here - I mean if someone said to me "Can you give me £10, but in the end I'll give you £12 back", I would accept that offer. Yet the way you have written it (scaremongering again, are we?), it would suggest that they are taking taking and taking, yet giving nothing back?

Because the issue isn't solely economics, the issue is mainly the sheer numbers coming in and literally swamping entire areas - it alienates people when they don't hear English being spoken around them, crime is shooting up in their area and that's when you have people turning to extreme groups like the BNP and EDL because their concerns are being totally ignored by people like you who only care about contributing to the national GDP.

As for the claims that it's all so good for the economy, i'm highly sceptical - I would like to know if these figures are compiled by including the costs of schools having to teach in multiple languages, the costs of crime, NSH bills and so on. And besides, of course more people = more GDP. What you should be looking at is GDP Per Capita rather than GDP as a whole.

China has a higher population than us and thus has a higher GDP overall, yet the people of China are relatively very poor compared to the people here. If you add more and more people of course your GDP will increase (which translates as 'an extra £6bn' or whatever) but that doesn't mean we are all getting wealthier, indeed it can mean the opposite.

[Grig]

Will comment more extensively later. But, the interesting point here is why hasn't the government learned from past immigration disasters with other Eastern European countries. Attract foreign talent, sure, and that's a positive for any country. But what seems to keep happening is the complete antonym of talent with the government not learning from history. This is going to be an issue that generations later will regret and some community are already feeling the full brunt of these policies already. There is little sane justification for this policy to go through and it will just reflect on the government being a lame duck, not caring for its nationals.

In terms of China and GDP, the country will eventually have a collapse and then it'll be reeling the effects of its wealth. Many backroom dealings going on in that country, which essentially has a housing bubble growing worse than the US' in the 2008 collapse. GDP also correlates to economic growth in the country. Quality of life is of course much better in Britain, and if this continues, it will always be a strong marker for the long term.

[Kardan]

Could. It's a hypothetical dear.

Although on the ATM figures it's already a vast majority at 92% Romanian.



Yes so don't let them in if they have a criminal record.

Duh? :P



If that's your attitude then I really hope you get a taste of what other people in this country are going to have to go through because of your pure arrogance. And i'm talking about crime.

If it's good enough for other people in this country to experience it then it's good enough for you. Maybe being held up at the ATM or having your details stolen will straighten out that head of yours.

The vast point is, no matter what I think of immigration (It's worth noting that I haven't said I'm for, or happy with the changes that will be happening in the new year, I'm just opposing certain points you keep insisting on using :P), that it will stay the same. If I express a massive hatred, these people will still get let in - so really, there's nothing I can do, and there's not much point losing sleep over it.

And if we're talking hypotheticals, I guess it's not wrong for me to say that:

A vast majority of gay people could have HIV. A vast majority of Christian bishops could be paedophiles. A vast majority of Habbox Forum management could be billionaires. Etc. Etc. Do hypotheticals really have a place in debates? I'd leave them out, it just leads to confusion really :)

[-:Undertaker:-]

The vast point is, no matter what I think of immigration (It's worth noting that I haven't said I'm for, or happy with the changes that will be happening in the new year, I'm just opposing certain points you keep insisting on using :P), that it will stay the same. If I express a massive hatred, these people will still get let in - so really, there's nothing I can do, and there's not much point losing sleep over it.

And if we're talking hypotheticals, I guess it's not wrong for me to say that:

A vast majority of gay people could have HIV. A vast majority of Christian bishops could be paedophiles. A vast majority of Habbox Forum management could be billionaires. Etc. Etc. Do hypotheticals really have a place in debates? I'd leave them out, it just leads to confusion really :)

But this it the problem with this debate. Whenever this debate gets brought up people like yourself confuse a dislike of mass uncontrolled immigration with a dislike or hatred of immigrants.

I have not once blamed the immigrants for wanting to come here - the only people I blame and will continue to blame are the politicians for allowing it to happen in the first place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxMtT-5svsk - that's the success story I want more of.

[Kardan]

But this it the problem with this debate. Whenever this debate gets brought up people like yourself confuse a dislike of mass uncontrolled immigration with a dislike or hatred of immigrants.

I have not once blamed the immigrants for wanting to come here - the only people I blame and will continue to blame are the politicians for allowing it to happen in the first place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxMtT-5svsk - that's the success story I want more of.

I did mean a hatred of the system in general rather than the immigrants. I looked up whether you can enter the country with a criminal record, and sadly, you're right. If you're in a country outside the EU, you will be refused if you've gone to prison. If you're in the EU, you can have anything on your criminal record and walk right in. That's just plain wrong. The system has its flaws.

[AgnesIO]

No dear, no no no you have it completely wrong. I cannot provide links because I cannot read Poland, however I can provide links (as I did earlier with the video for example) where Government ministers and managers of those companies themselves are telling you that companies are asking for the jobs to be advertised only in Eastern Europe.

Not only were companies doing it, the Department for Work and Pensions was also at it -

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/06/jobs-advertised-in-polish-government-_n_2630397.html



That was on a bloody GOVERNMENT website. Wake up, now there's a good chap.


Please stop referring to people as "dear", it is horribly patronising. That article does NOT state the DWP are advertising for their jobs in only Polish. It states that the Direct Gov website (essentially this section is a job search tool) contained advertisements in Polish for labourers. Whilst they shouldn't have been advertised in the first place, all I got from that article is that jobs were put up in Polish, and then removed when they are found out.

Apple allowed HMV to have an app selling music on their App Store (against their own terms) - they then removed the app when they found out. Exactly what has happened here.


So then you'll agree with me that having open borders with Romania and Bulgaria next year is stupid, irresponsible and wrong. Yes?

We can have measures preventing criminals, if you have a criminal record and try to go to the USA they will not let you in. Don't tell me the EU will get angry, they might fine you the odd million - but this is absolutely irrelevant. Other countries break EU rules all the time.


Because the issue isn't solely economics, the issue is mainly the sheer numbers coming in and literally swamping entire areas - it alienates people when they don't hear English being spoken around them, crime is shooting up in their area and that's when you have people turning to extreme groups like the BNP and EDL because their concerns are being totally ignored by people like you who only care about contributing to the national GDP.

As for the claims that it's all so good for the economy, i'm highly sceptical - I would like to know if these figures are compiled by including the costs of schools having to teach in multiple languages, the costs of crime, NSH bills and so on. And besides, of course more people = more GDP. What you should be looking at is GDP Per Capita rather than GDP as a whole.

Yeah, people could also turn to parties that have lunatics like Nigel Farage, and - until recently - Godfrey Bloom :rolleyes:

This is a really recent article, although this one does sadly does not split it up into parts of Europe; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24813467

However, from memory the last study was also UCL.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Please stop referring to people as "dear", it is horribly patronising. That article does NOT state the DWP are advertising for their jobs in only Polish. It states that the Direct Gov website (essentially this section is a job search tool) contained advertisements in Polish for labourers. Whilst they shouldn't have been advertised in the first place, all I got from that article is that jobs were put up in Polish, and then removed when they are found out.

Head in the sand, I've just provided evidence from a government website of all things and the headline clearly states that the jobs were only being advertised in Polish - so you didn't get much from the article as you clearly weren't paying any attention to what it says.


We can have measures preventing criminals, if you have a criminal record and try to go to the USA they will not let you in. Don't tell me the EU will get angry, they might fine you the odd million - but this is absolutely irrelevant. Other countries break EU rules all the time.

Kardan has just conceded my point above that when the borders open with Romania and Bulgaria, under EU rules we will not have the power any longer to stop those with criminal records entering this country.

So with that fact now established, do you or do you not agree with me that it is foolish and a betrayal of the British people to open the borders up to Romania and Bulgaria in January 2014?


Yeah, people could also turn to parties that have lunatics like Nigel Farage, and - until recently - Godfrey Bloom :rolleyes:

Those 'lunatics' were the same lunatics who stood alone for most of the past decade warning that Britain shouldn't join the Euro (at a time when Richard Branson and Co were saying our economy would suffer if we did not) and that it would end in tears. Those 'lunatics' were the only ones who warned in 2004 that opening the doors to Poland would result in a flood of immigrants into this country. Those 'lunatics' were the same people who warned that the European Commission would use the Euro crisis as a catalyst to take control of the City of London/financial services and national governments (which was proven right with Greece, Italy and Belgium). Those 'lunatics' were the same two who warned that the European Union would ignore the results of national referendums and would continue on with their project regardless of what the public thought (as proven with the French, Dutch and Irish referendums).

If Farage is a lunatic, then what does that make everybody else who said the complete opposite? For a loon, he certainly has a good track record of being right.


This is a really recent article, although this one does sadly does not split it up into parts of Europe; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24813467

However, from memory the last study was also UCL.

I explained the point about GDP earlier - of course with more people GDP is higher than having less people in your country. I have also said in this debate that the economics of it aren't actually my main concern, my main concern over mass immigration is multiculturalism and the rise of cultural ghettos across this country.