Labour: White boys underachievement linked to mass migration

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10539925/Labour-White-boys-underachievement-linked-to-mass-migration.html

Labour: White boys' underachievement linked to mass migration

Tristram Hunt links underachievement by white boys to Eastern European immigration


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01632/tristram-hunt15_1632480b.jpg
The last Labour government failed to provide vocational education because it believed in a “myth” that Britain was a “post-industrial nation”, Mr Hunt said.


The failure of white boys to succeed at school is linked to uncontrolled immigration from Eastern Europe, Labour’s shadow education secretary has suggested.

Tristram Hunt, the former television historian, said the low attainment of white British boys, particularly those living on England’s east coast, was linked to high levels of migration from the EU.

More must be done to train indigenous Britons for skilled jobs, Mr Hunt said, admitting the last Labour Government got its immigration forecasts “badly wrong”. The children of Pakistani immigrants are now alarmed at the rate of migration from Eastern Europe.

His comments come days before people from Romania and Bulgaria are granted the right to work in Britain without restrictions, following the lifting of transitional controls on January 1.

“I’m influenced by my time as MP for Stoke-on-Trent. I remember talking to a young, second-generation Pakistani British lad who was concerned about the speed of change in the community as a result of the failure to introduce controlled migration from the EU accession states last time,” Mr Hunt said in an interview for Fabian Review.

“I think the answer is partly on the supply side. We’ve got to make sure that we’re training our young people for jobs [in which they will] succeed [but] the real fear is that we got the numbers wrong last time, the statistics were poorly produced and policy flowed from that.”

“What we can do in the education sphere is to [show] that there is a growing issue of white British boys not getting the education they want,” Mr Hunt said, highlighting low attainment in schools in Lincolnshire, Norfolk, Suffolk and on the Kent coast which have seen high levels of EU migration.

Asked whether he thinks the two issues are linked, he said: “Exactly. And that comes back to the supply side. We have to get in there.”

His analysis mirrors that of David Cameron, who has described curbing immigration, raising standards in schools and reducing welfare dependency as a “three-sided coin” to the problem of improving Britain's economic fortunes

The last Labour government failed to provide vocational education because it believed in a “myth” that Britain was a “post-industrial nation”, Mr Hunt said.

“In 1997 the focus was on standards and expansion of the higher education sector. We all thought the knowledge economy was the answer and that financial services would keep going forever.”

He said he was “shocked” to be promoted to the shadow cabinet by Ed Miliband and admitted that Labour had been dominated in the education debate by Michael Gove. The education secretary is a “zealot” with a “highly aggressive, investment banker model of schooling,” he said. He added: “There is a lot of Michael. If we’ve lost any ground it is disturbing.”

Wow imagine if another party like say..... UKIP had said this? Just a few years back if you warned of mass immigration or said even the slightest thing negative about it then you were shouted down as a racist, xenophobe etc by Labour and the other two main parties. How times change, and I wonder why that is? And just a few months before the elections too.. Mhmmmm.

Either way, of course he's got a point - although i'm unsure what skin colour has to do with it (although there is a link in terms of performance rates from stats i've read in the past). The point is though that British youngsters of all colours are being driven out of the job market by flooding the country with workers, mainly from Eastern Europe, and this surely can't be healthy. Not to mention wage rates being depressed by allowing cheap workers in from foreign countries. It's a slap in the face to the working/lower middle classes.

As the former Labour Foreign and Home Secretaries warned a few months ago, we face the possibility of riots in this country if this open door policy continues. Because when you leave hundreds of thousands of angry youths on the unemployment heap whilst you hand out jobs to foreigners, of course they're going to get very pissed off.

Thoughts?

[Kardan]

I wouldn't say that the lower grades of White British boys is caused by immigration, and it would have been nice to have seen some sort of proof, but the guy simply says that 'Look, A is low here, and B is high here, so that means A and B must be related'. It's pretty obvious that you can't base on an argument solely on that - and there doesn't seem to be any more proof for his statement.

But if they are getting lower grades, then that clearly opens the doors for more immigrants to achieve employment in this country... And if there's more opportunity for employment, then that will entice more people over here, so in a way, I agree with the reverse of his statement - that poor education in the UK will result in more immigration.

I do think education needs to be tackled sooner rather than later, and I'd agree that Michael Gove really isn't the man for the job.

[buttons]

hahah are u sure they don't have poor grades because of their broken family homes, gay dads or having unprotected sex?? maybe white boys r just thick

[Kardan]

That's a point, he says A causes B - but what's to say it's not B causes A?

[-:Undertaker:-]

It isn't me saying this - although I do agree with him.

It's the Labour Party you all vote for saying this. Not only is it Tristram Hunt MP (the man who will replace Michael Gove as Education Secretary) but it's also former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw MP, former Home Secretary David Blunkett MP and even the Labour leader Ed Miliband - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10326285/Ed-Miliband-Labour-will-cut-immigration-if-we-win-next-election.html


maybe white boys r just thick

That's an appallingly racist statement to make.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/41ef409b9fe0e8491faa7eff2cddd7b7/tumblr_mtfsrpP8gF1s0hk6jo1_400.gif

In all seriousness, i'd like to know what the moderators and commentators on here would say if you'd have said black boys.


That's a point, he says A causes B - but what's to say it's not B causes A?

Isn't it pretty obvious? The fact that resources which would normally have gone to children who aren't that academic are now being stretched for the offspring of Polish immigrants, hence why even the second-generation Pakistani Britons are now becoming cheesed off and want controls. Couple all this with the fact that because of mass migration, when they get off the education ladder and try to get a job - they're all being pushed out of the job market leaving them with no hope of a job or a future.

Immigration is an issue that now affects people of all colours, and we've had enough.

[buttons]

Anyway the articles a bit of a mess. white boys aren't getting educational achievement because of european immigrants who are also white? I'm bit confused

hilarious u just called me racist for saying white people are thick when you've just said this article isn't racist even though it's practically just said white european immigrants are the reason for white boys (still confused) not achieving education

[-:Undertaker:-]

hilarious u just called me racist for saying white people are thick when you've just said this article isn't racist even though it's practically just said white european immigrants are the reason for white boys (still confused) not achieving education

How can that be racist when it's white v white. :rolleyes: Nationality isn't race you know.

Either way I haven't said it, the shadow Labour Education Secretary did. I have elaborated on what he meant by his statement on this topic, which you can find i've posted above in response to the Labour supporter & voter Kardan.

[Kardan]

Isn't it pretty obvious? The fact that resources which would normally have gone to children who aren't that academic are now being stretched for the offspring of Polish immigrants, hence why even the second-generation Pakistani Britons are now becoming cheesed off and want controls. Couple all this with the fact that because of mass migration, when they get off the education ladder and try to get a job - they're all being pushed out of the job market leaving them with no hope of a job or a future.

Immigration is an issue that now affects people of all colours, and we've had enough.

But couldn't you equally say that the Polish immigrants are bringing their children over here because the British children are already doing crap at school, meaning there's more places open in further education/employment because the British kids aren't skilled enough for it in the first place.

There's not really anything that says it's either yours (and the guy in the articles) way around, or may way around. But either way, both of them rely on the British education system being crap (You say that resources are stretched, and I'm saying it's not good enough in the first place) - so surely if we improve the education system, that will go some way to tackling immigration?

And Jen, I think the only reason it mentions White (I think it means White British, since most of the European immigrants are White) is that it provides some sort of correlation that Immigration increase <=> Lower achievement

I imagine if they just mentioned kids overall, the evidence wouldn't really be there.

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How can that be racist when it's white v white. :rolleyes: Nationality isn't race you know.

Either way I haven't said it, the shadow Labour Education Secretary did. I have elaborated on what he meant by his statement on this topic, which you can find i've posted above in response to the Labour supporter & voter Kardan.

Am I a Labour voter if I haven't really voted Labour yet? :P

The only thing I got to vote in was the local elections a while back, and I voted Lib Dem and Labour :P So by that logic, I'm equally as much of a Lib Dem as I am a Labour voter :P

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Oh, and I also voted in the AV Referendum and voted the opposite of what Labour should vote :P

[-:Undertaker:-]

But couldn't you equally say that the Polish immigrants are bringing their children over here because the British children are already doing crap at school, meaning there's more places open in further education/employment because the British kids aren't skilled enough for it in the first place.

There's not really anything that says it's either yours (and the guy in the articles) way around, or may way around. But either way, both of them rely on the British education system being crap (You say that resources are stretched, and I'm saying it's not good enough in the first place) - so surely if we improve the education system, that will go some way to tackling immigration?

The British education system is crap, I agree - that's why I constantly argue for the return to selective education which was destroyed with the abolition of the grammar schools. So sure, the education system has huge gaping holes in it and there are many problems with it... but it's not helped and indeed, it's compacted with mass immigration - especially when it comes to post-education job prospects. It's refreshing to see that some in Labour are waking up to this and exactly what they have done.

As for your second part, spoken like a true politician. The last government threw buckets of money at schools and education yet they're still absolutely dreadful, so creating shiny new schools clearly isn't what is at fault. What's at fault is the comprehensive system itself, which being left wing I assume you support... but that's an argument for another day.


I imagine if they just mentioned kids overall, the evidence wouldn't really be there.

This is most important and i'd be interested to hear your response to this, I should have said this earlier but here..

You can bend it all you want, but the fact is that even if British kids were better educated or at the same level as Poles it still wouldn't matter for the fact that you don't need to have the best brains to be a plumber or somebody who picks crops in a field. When the employers look for the people to do these jobs, they will pick those who will work for the lowest wage (often under the minimum wage - which you lot support) and who are unlikely to have children as they then avoid all the maternity leave regulations, ie young single Polish men.

You can educate every Briton to the level of an Einstein yet that still won't solve the chronic problem of jobs being taken by migrant workers in the manual labor market.

[buttons]

The article is talking about how white British boys are getting low education achievement IN SCHOOL. it's not about them not getting jobs, it's about them not getting any good grades. don't see how that's Europeans fault. myb should stop trying to place blame on others.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The article is talking about how white British boys are getting low education achievement IN SCHOOL. it's not about them not getting jobs, it's about them not getting any good grades. don't see how that's Europeans fault. myb should stop trying to place blame on others.

Nobody blames the immigrants for all these problems, it's not their fault - they're just doing what is sensible and rational for them and their families who often come from very poor countries and who are looking to better themselves. No, the people to blame are the politicians and the EU for ignoring British voters and opening the borders in the first place hence why even second-generation immigrants have even had enough.

I blame the politicians 100%, the immigrants 0%.

[Kardan]

The British education system is crap, I agree - that's why I constantly argue for the return to selective education which was destroyed with the abolition of the grammar schools. So sure, the education system has huge gaping holes in it and there are many problems with it... but it's not helped and indeed, it's compacted with mass immigration - especially when it comes to post-education job prospects. It's refreshing to see that some in Labour are waking up to this and exactly what they have done.

As for your second part, spoken like a true politician. The last government threw buckets of money at schools and education yet they're still absolutely dreadful, so creating shiny new schools clearly isn't what is at fault. What's at fault is the comprehensive system itself, which being left wing I assume you support... but that's an argument for another day.



This is most important and i'd be interested to hear your response to this, I should have said this earlier but here..

You can bend it all you want, but the fact is that even if British kids were better educated or at the same level as Poles it still wouldn't matter for the fact that you don't need to have the best brains to be a plumber or somebody who picks crops in a field. When the employers look for the people to do these jobs, they will pick those who will work for the lowest wage (often under the minimum wage - which you lot support) and who are unlikely to have children as they then avoid all the maternity leave regulations, ie young single Polish men.

You can educate every Briton to the level of an Einstein yet that still won't solve the chronic problem of jobs being taken by migrant workers in the manual labor market.

Of course, it depends on what level you look at...

If more British kids are having a crap education, you'd expect them to take these more basic jobs, but as we both know immigrants working for a lower wage than minimum wage is what causes the problem here, as you've said, that is another argument and we've gone over that before.

If we look at kids going through further education from GCSEs, then I can see why immigrants might want to put their children into the education system. I mean, if less British kids are entering, there's clearly more spaces open - if there's more spaces, grades are likely to be lowered in an effort to fill spaces, meaning a greater chance of getting in.

I mean, just look at all the foreign students in British Universities - they must be somewhat decent if people come all over the world for them. And as a parent, if you had to decide between letting your child grow up in Poland and getting the money together to send them over to Britain when they're 18 for Uni, or immigrating to Britain in the first place whilst claiming benefits as they grow up and eventually getting student finance to send your child to Uni when they're 18 - I know what sounds the easiest option.

I'm probably going off at a tangent, and it's probably unlikely for many immigrants to go through that sort of thinking, but at the end of the day, if we improve the education system so more British people are able to fill these jobs, then it will reduce immigration slightly. As I said before though, the jobs that require no qualifications are a different matter, since improving the education system won't have much impact on those areas of employment.

[FlyingJesus]

http://images.bwbx.io/cms/2011-11-30/etc_correlation50__01__960.jpg

Correlation does not imply causation

[-:Undertaker:-]

Correlation does not imply causation

The Shadow Education Minister certainly disagrees' smarty pants.


I'm probably going off at a tangent, and it's probably unlikely for many immigrants to go through that sort of thinking, but at the end of the day, if we improve the education system so more British people are able to fill these jobs, then it will reduce immigration slightly. As I said before though, the jobs that require no qualifications are a different matter, since improving the education system won't have much impact on those areas of employment.

Agreed.

[Chippiewill]

highlighting low attainment in schools in Lincolnshire, Norfolk, Suffolk and on the Kent coast which have seen high levels of EU migration.

What a massive crock of ****, I very rarely see immigrants in Norfolk.

[-:Undertaker:-]

What a massive crock of ****, I very rarely see immigrants in Norfolk.

That's like saying because you haven't experienced people in your area using food banks that they don't use/or need food banks in your area. I personally, and luckily, aren't affected by mass immigration due to the fact that I live in Liverpool (which is hardly affected at all) and more to the point - i'm lucky enough to live in an area of Liverpool which hasn't been taken over and ghettoised. I do know of certain areas though.

So as blessed as I am in that regard, it still doesn't mean other areas of the country aren't massively struggling.

[Kardan]

http://images.bwbx.io/cms/2011-11-30/etc_correlation50__01__960.jpg

Correlation does not imply causation

This made me chuckle :P But it's essentially what the guy in the article has done, so there's not much proof for his statements.

[Chippiewill]

That's like saying because you haven't experienced people in your area using food banks that they don't use/or need food banks in your area.
Sorry, I don't think those are comparable situations. I think if Norfolk had high immigrant levels I would notice by virtue of more people I see being immigrants. If somehow it doesn't affect what I see then **** immigration controls, let them all in, since there's no difference apparently.

Clearly this is a case of someone MASSIVELY ************.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Sorry, I don't think those are comparable situations. I think if Norfolk had high immigrant levels I would notice by virtue of more people I see being immigrants. If somehow it doesn't affect what I see then **** immigration controls, let them all in, since there's no difference apparently.

Clearly this is a case of someone MASSIVELY ************.

That depends where you live in Norfolk.

Most of Lincolnshire will be British but if you live in Boston and Skegness it's a different story. Same as in Liverpool if you happen to live in Maghull or Aintree, venture into Toxteth or say Kensington then it'll be a different matter. Or London - Westminster vs Tower Hamlets.

[FlyingJesus]

The Shadow Education Minister certainly disagrees' smarty pants.

Then he's either a fool or purposely making use of fallacy to lie to the people since it's quite simply FACT that correlation does not imply causation, and nothing in the article shows an actual link

[karter]

That's an appallingly racist statement to make.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/41ef409b9fe0e8491faa7eff2cddd7b7/tumblr_mtfsrpP8gF1s0hk6jo1_400.gif

In all seriousness, i'd like to know what the moderators and commentators on here would say if you'd have said black boys.

.


let me knock a few gems of your white crown and tell you why racism against "white people" does not exist. do not break open this post while replying, if you wanna reply read the whole thing first.


“oppression can only be seen by the eye of the oppressed and not the oppressor.”

first of all memorise this statement, and before you say the white boy statement offended you, educate yourself. You have the long end of the stick in the social hierarchy you should not be looking for reasons to demean yourself, stop trying to BE the victim when you know you clearly are not. Rather check your privilege, because you belittle real oppression people face by trying to equally balance your white feelings getting hurt.

By now you've probably googled 'racism' or something, let me save you the trouble

Racism = racial prejudice + systemic and institutional power

Now there's more to racism than getting your feelings hurt, and of course coloured people can be prejudiced against white people. But they do not have the power to oppress them, not in the first world anyway (nor in any other country that I know of). Coloured people can only carry out personal racial prejudice, not racism. Now this 'WHITE POWER!!!!' attitude you have is probably a result of shock, you people have had the historical access and advantage but now the time comes to share the power, you get offended.

Then comes the question why aren't the same things applicable on coloured people too? If I speak against them why is it considered racism? Because these statements trivializes the pain and reality of racism they continue to face no matter how much you deny. It's the truth and you know it.


RACISM“Any attitude, action or institutional structure which subordinates a person or group because of their color … Racism is not just a matter of attitudes; actions and institutional structures can also be a form of racism.”

—from RACISM IN AMERICA AND HOW TO COMBAT IT, U.S. commission on Civil Rights


Are you sticking up for the definition of racism which is only convenient for you????? Which ignores the harsh pain and reality of millions of people being victims of racism? are you so afraid to be labelled as racist that you twist the definition and refuse to acknowledge the actual effects of racism??

DO NOT. diminish the experiences of coloured people and telling the story of your hardship. Your cloud of denial is not letting you get educated about the truth, you keep minimizing their experience in order to make yours comparable and we both know what the intensity of each situation is.

Before you start denying your white privilege, let me tell you that you still benefit from the system which gives you 0 right to tell what's oppressive and what isn't. If you refuse to acknowledge your privilege, it will further alienate you from your obvious racist behaviour. You never get called out on your deeds and your privilege and when you finally are, you think it's 'racism'. People educate you on the reality of the situation, but nope, that's racist according to you.

Finally after all this, if you say "How can a guy sitting in India teach me about racism? India itself is a very racist state". Let me tell you that I have lived in NJ for three years, my mother has spent more than half of her life in USA and I could narrate you my share of experience of being a victim of racism. YET I still know what racism is and you don't. Sure, a lot of Indians are racist but are you really going to satisfy yourself and your racist ways by that rhetoric? Well, good luck to you and your 'you're all whiny idiots and have nothing on me, the enlightened one' attitude.

[FlyingJesus]

Oh dear this thread was all going so well and then you pulled out the tumblr nonsense that is the "power + prejudice" argument - the definition not accepted by any genuine body or dictionary which makes it possible to say "I'm oppressed and if you tell me I'm not it's because you're privileged", and claims that beating a white person to death for being white isn't as bad as beating a black person to death for being black because despite being dead that white person was still somehow in a position of privilege over absolutely every non-white person in the entire universe. I agree that Dan has no idea what racism is but apparently neither do you if that's the definition you like to use

[karter]

Oh dear this thread was all going so well and then you pulled out the tumblr nonsense that is the "power + prejudice" argument - the definition not accepted by any genuine body or dictionary which makes it possible to say "I'm oppressed and if you tell me I'm not it's because you're privileged", and claims that beating a white person to death for being white isn't as bad as beating a black person to death for being black because despite being dead that white person was still somehow in a position of privilege over absolutely every non-white person in the entire universe. I agree that Dan has no idea what racism is but apparently neither do you if that's the definition you like to use

I was trying to show him that he is sticking up for the definition of racism and I am sticking up for mine

Also get educated on 'racism' and 'racial hatred' and know how your white guy beaten to death statement is very wrong. Goodbye

[FlyingJesus]

Wow ok you literally just told me that the life of any random white person means less than the life of any random non-white person. You're an idiot who needs to log off tumblr and try using logic rather than just telling people to "get educated" while you ignore reality

[karter]

Wow ok you literally just told me that the life of any random white person means less than the life of any random non-white person.
Where did that come from?

You need to stop trying to equalize both parties here by a hypothetical example of a white guy beaten to death by a black guy. Tell me when you have a valid argument otherwise you can shut up too

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If you really need me to specifically add this so obvious comment:

"Racial hatred does exist against white people in fact it can exist for anyone" *crowd cheering*

They still cannot be victims of racism. *crowd boos*

[Kardan]

karter; would you say that discrimination by religion is racism or not?

[karter]

and claims that beating a white person to death for being white isn't as bad as beating a black person to death for being black because despite being dead that white person was still somehow in a position of privilege over absolutely every non-white person in the entire universe.

Really? Which definition claims racial crimes are Okay as long as the oppressors are the target? will you quote it for me?

This ain't a claim, it's an assumption (pretty crap one too) and you felt the need to say it because you couldn't figure out the meaning of racism either.

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@karter (http://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=58762); would you say that discrimination by religion is racism or not?

It's along the same line, if one religious group is oppressing another

However I do see that a certain race can have different religions, the oppression works in the same way though, not sure if you can term that as 'racism' there or not.

[Kardan]

Really? Which definition claims racial crimes are Okay as long as the oppressors are the target? will you quote it for me?

This ain't a claim, it's an assumption (pretty crap one too) and you felt the need to say it because you couldn't figure out the meaning of racism either.

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It's along the same line, if one religious group is oppressing another

However I do see that a certain race can have different religions, the oppression works in the same way though, not sure if you can term that as 'racism' there or not.

So where are your thoughts on the Jews being slaughtered during the Holocaust?

[karter]

So where are your thoughts on the Jews being slaughtered during the Holocaust?

Jews are a religious group with a different ethnic background, so yes it was racism

Not to mention Hitler's 'Aryan' Race theory - fair skinned, blonde haired, blue eyed being pure and others being impure

[FlyingJesus]

Where did that come from?

You need to stop trying to equalize both parties here by a hypothetical example of a white guy beaten to death by a black guy. Tell me when you have a valid argument otherwise you can shut up too

It came from you saying that my statement was wrong when I was saying that both are racism. Fairly basic stuff, this.


If you really need me to specifically add this so obvious comment:

"Racial hatred does exist against white people in fact it can exist for anyone" *crowd cheering*

They still cannot be victims of racism. *crowd boos*

Racial hatred IS racism you absolute dong. You cannot just make up definitions for things that already exist. If I say that my personal definition of a horse is a racist victim-blamer who erases the suffering of millions of people simply because of how they were born that doesn't make you an actual horse, it just means my definition is wrong


Really? Which definition claims racial crimes are Okay as long as the oppressors are the target? will you quote it for me?

This ain't a claim, it's an assumption (pretty crap one too) and you felt the need to say it because you couldn't figure out the meaning of racism either.

Your one - or rather the one you parroted from some fired-up social inactivist from the web. You outright state that white people cannot experience racism (because every single one of them has much more power than any non-white person to have ever existed obv) and since racist acts are illegal your definition allows for actions against white folks to be perfectly legal when they wouldn't be for non-whites. It's really quite simple

[karter]

Actually the definition comes from this guy (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathleen-wells/racism-white-supremacy_b_2474052.html). (Each and everything does not come from a fired up internet activist)

Because you think a black guy beating a white guy is motivated by race when it's actually motivated by continuous discrimination and oppression. Black guy beating a hispanic, asian etc man would be racism. I think you're more troubled by the fact that coloured people are less likely to be labelled as racists than white people.

[-:Undertaker:-]

let me knock a few gems of your white crown and tell you why racism against "white people" does not exist.

I love it when people claim that racism doesn't exist when it's directed at white people because of history - they've clearly forgotton about the Ottoman Empire which used to capture white Europeans and use them as slaves... as well as the way lighter skinned Indians treat darker skinned Indians, or the way Africans of one tribe used to capture and sell members of another tribe to slave traders of both European and Arab ethnic background. Just look at South Sudan today, a conflict going on based on ethnic grounds.... yet only white people can be racist. Mmm k.

I agree with Tom in what he's said, I can't even really respond to karter because there's nothing to respond to other than accusations that i'm a racist when I haven't ever once uttered a word claiming that people of a different skin colour are inferior to me because i'm white. If I really was a nasty racist, then I wouldn't be living with a second generation Indian Briton at university, would I? Dimwitted fool.

[karter]

If I really was a nasty racist, then I wouldn't be living with a second generation Indian Briton at university, would I? Dimwitted fool.

Lovely. Concluding you're not racist while using a racist statement.

Wait...no....I mean....THIS GUY. he's associating with a real Indian origin person? Damn he's a character..maybe his association with a person other than his race will free this guy from his prejudiced self! Amazing. We need more people like this guy

[-:Undertaker:-]

Lovely. Concluding you're not racist while using a racist statement.

Wait...no....I mean....THIS GUY. he's associating with a real Indian origin person? Damn he's a character..maybe his association with a person other than his race will free this guy from his prejudiced self! Amazing. We need more people like this guy

LOL what? what's racist about that? Me and my mate actually couldn't give a hoot about racism/skin colour hence why we always bash eachother over the head with racism as a running joke. Y'know, banter just as my entire sixth form had with my other mate who's from Kenya and was very black - him and another guy were known as Lenny and Carl from the Simpsons. :P But you know, for all the times you've called me a racist you haven't once be able to point out where i've said somebody/a race is better or worse because of their skin colour. Why? because I don't believe that. Culture is what makes a people better or worse, not a skin colour or tone.

*waits for a post in response to tell me how that exposes my deep flaws as a perfect human being like yourself and im a nasty racist*

[karter]

The part where you needed to tell me that you're friends with a person other than your own race actually sums it up?

Also "I don't see skin colour" is a nice excuse to avoid talking about racism. However ignoring that you're deviating from the fact that the person had a different life experience, society sees them differently..

Colout consciousness is not racism

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I think I have covered the parts where your obvious racist opinions ooze out(you know..the previous threads)

I'm just a bit surprised that you still are in denial, I'm not going to make another post but I do hope you work on your internal prejudice and race superiority complex. Goodbye

[-:Undertaker:-]

The part where you needed to tell me that you're friends with a person other than your own race actually sums it up?

Uhhh well because it goes without question that if I really was a racist, then I wouldn't be living with somebody with a 'lesser' skin tone than me would I? ..and I certainly wouldn't be friends with them.


Also "I don't see skin colour" is a nice excuse to avoid talking about racism. However ignoring that you're deviating from the fact that the person had a different life experience, society sees them differently..

Colout consciousness is not racism

I'll talk about racism anytime, when it's genuine racism - I will not on the other hand have complete and utter bullcrap fed to me that white people cannot experience racism (just ask the white Rhodesians or white South Africans) nor will I standby while statements about white people are made that would result in a telling off at the very least if they were made about black/chinese/other coloured people.


I think I have covered the parts where your obvious racist opinions ooze out(you know..the previous threads)

I'm just a bit surprised that you still are in denial, I'm not going to make another post but I do hope you work on your internal prejudice and race superiority complex.

Yeah except you haven't been able to ever quote me being racist so you lose. Again.

[Ardemax]

Well if it's the Daily Mail we're talking about... I'll just leave this here.

http://i.imgur.com/Vn3tF4d.jpg

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well if it's the Daily Mail we're talking about... I'll just leave this here.

We're not talking about the Daily Mail nor has it been posted or quoted in this thread.

Had too much to drink tonight?

[FlyingJesus]

Actually the definition comes from this guy (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathleen-wells/racism-white-supremacy_b_2474052.html). (Each and everything does not come from a fired up internet activist)

Privilege + power definitions have been around a lot longer than since January. Furthermore, someone repeating a lie doesn't make it less of one


Because you think a black guy beating a white guy is motivated by race when it's actually motivated by continuous discrimination and oppression. Black guy beating a hispanic, asian etc man would be racism. I think you're more troubled by the fact that coloured people are less likely to be labelled as racists than white people.

Where are you getting this nonsense? I said someone being beaten for being white - nothing about a black attacker, nothing about what the white person may or may not have done, just simply someone taking time out of their day to attack someone for the pure reason that they are white. The person they are attacking has not oppressed them just by existing, and you're being hideously racist by suggesting that all white people are oppressors. You're probably of the opinion that a few white people making laws means that all white people are at fault for them, but you've used the apex fallacy before (when you claimed that women are an oppressed group in a society that raises them above everyone and caters to their every need, which was also hilariously wrong) and it still remains a fallacy.

Also a black guy attacking an Asian would not by necessity be racism. You are all over the place here and you seem to have no real grasp of what you're talking about. No need to tell me what I think either, especially when you're wrong about that too. Ad homs aren't required.

[karter]

I was specifically talking about first world countries - both Zimbabwe and South Africa are not first world countries

- - - Updated - - -


Also a black guy attacking an Asian would not by necessity be racism.


Woops yeah should've been more clear on that one. If a black guy attacks an asian guy solely on racial reasons, that's racism.

Black guy attacking white guy - a result of institutional racism

White guy attacking black guy - you fill in the reason here

We're talking about hate crimes only here before you flip out.

And don't think that I am sympathizing with the black guy beating a white guy, a crime is a crime he should be tried equally but the first one still ain't racism. I stand by this statement whether you like it or not.

[Ardemax]

We're not talking about the Daily Mail nor has it been posted or quoted in this thread.

Had too much to drink tonight?

I have but I really like that photo

[Kardan]

Well if it's the Daily Mail we're talking about... I'll just leave this here.

http://i.imgur.com/Vn3tF4d.jpg

And they don't know the difference between 1st and 3rd either, as seen on the 'England is densely populated' thread :P

[karter]

Yeah except you haven't been able to ever quote me being racist so you lose. Again.

I have actually, repeatedly, but you're delusional and that's your problem not mine

[GommeInc]

let me knock a few gems of your white crown and tell you why racism against "white people" does not exist.
Did I read that wrong or did you really just say white people cannot be the subject of racial abuse? :S

[karter]

Did I read that wrong or did you really just say white people cannot be the subject of racial abuse? :S

You read what was writtten

If you term all hate crimes as 'racism' then sure whatever suits your dictionary terms

[Inseriousity.]

Disagree entirely on this. I've actually wrote an essay on this for university!

The article seems to heavily suggest that we aren't training white British boys for the workplace and that the influx of immigrants from eastern europe and other countries are taking the jobs they would usually occupy. There's a possible argument here - the theory of anti-school subcultures relies heavily on working class finding working class employment. That doesn't explain underachievement at school of this group though, that would just suggest that post-education, this group is most likely to be NEETs. I would say that the causes are more domestically based: anti-school subculture and how academia is seen as uncool, the lack of patience in a system that is more about long-term rewards than short-term gains, the delboys/alan sugars/richard branson who all "left school with no qualifications but are now super rich" so it doesn't matter if I fail now cos that'll be me in 30 years.

[GommeInc]

You read what was writtten

If you term all hate crimes as 'racism' then sure whatever suits your dictionary terms
Never said that and it's not just dictionary but common sense and logic defining it too. You're discriminating against individuals in society who are white by saying they cannot be victims of race crimes. Do you know what people are labelled when they discriminate against others? Usually racist. So you've sat yourself into a comfy, deep hole with this strange and clearly ignorant belief.

Racism, depending on the jurisdiction, is a type of hate crime, not vice versa. Race can be, but is not limited to: colour and nationality. Other hate crimes include but, again, not limited to: religion, sexuality and even the mundane such as hair colour (e.g. ginger hair) because it is targeting an individual for a difference or a specific thing in their characteristics (I say specific because you can get self-loathing people who hate their own kind for the "good" of other kinds).

In the UK, white (Caucasian) individuals who are targeted by individuals of the same or different colour of skin are victims of racial abuse if the victim is being targeted for being white, British etc etc. In India, if a man or woman who is white is attacked for being white or "British" they are the victim of a racially motivated hate crime. Ergo, white people can be the subjects of racial abuse. This whole white supremacist argument you have that white people cannot be the victims of racial abuse because they 'invented' racism is, in some ways, racist. You are saying white victims cannot be victims of racial abuse because of the colour of their skin, when clearly they are if they are physically, verbally or psychologically harmed for the colour of their skin or nationality.

[FlyingJesus]

Yes but Ryan you are dealing with someone who doesn't believe in the dictionary or the law because they were written by white men, and instead chooses to adopt definitions from angry illiterates who are devoid of logic or reasoning past BUT YOUR GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER MIGHT HAVE TOUCHED MINE IN A BAD WAY IF HE WAS POSSIBLY PART OF THE 1% BACK THEN

[Vodafone]

let me knock a few gems of your white crown and tell you why racism against "white people" does not exist. do not break open this post while replying, if you wanna reply read the whole thing first.

Excuse me? Wow I didn't know you were such a bigot.