Told you so: Number of Romanian and Bulgarian workers surges to record high

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10648646/Number-of-Romanian-and-Bulgarian-migrant-workers-reaches-record-high.html

Number of Romanian and Bulgarian migrant workers reaches record high

Official data shows a 42 per cent surge in numbers from the two former Communist states during 2013, ahead of rule changes at start of January


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02520/ukba_jpg_2520313b.jpg
Until the start of this year Romanians and Bulgarians could only come to work in Britain under a specific set of circumstances


Romanians and Bulgarians have taken one in 10 new jobs in the past year as the number working in Britain has risen by 40 per cent.

In the final three months of last year, shortly before immigration restrictions were lifted, 144,000 people born in the two countries were working in Britain — and they took 41,670 of the 424,503 jobs which were created last year.

The Office for National Statistics figures also show that the number of unemployed fell by 125,000 to 2.3 million, although the pace is slowing. Wages rose by 1 per cent between October and December, but this was still significantly lower than the level of inflation. Restrictions on Romanian and Bulgarian migrants were lifted on Jan 1, giving them the ability to move to Britain, work here and claim benefits.

David Cameron faced criticism last month after claiming that a “reasonable” number of Romanian and Bulgarian migrants have arrived since then, but was later forced to admit that he had not seen official figures to support his claim.

Sir Andrew Green, the chairman of MigrationWatch UK, which campaigns for tougher immigration laws, said: “These latest figures show a steady increase in the number, just of workers from Romania and Bulgaria, in the UK even before restrictions were lifted in January – an increase of 30 to 40,000.”

In an attempt to quell public anxiety, the Government has announced that EU migrants will have to wait for at least three months before they can claim out-of-work benefits. However, Iain Duncan Smith, the Work and Pensions Secretary, pointed to figures suggesting that nearly nine in 10 jobs go to British workers — although these figures account for nationality rather than country of birth.

A Home Office report, also published on Wednesday, found that in 2012 more British workers took low-skilled jobs than foreign workers for the first time in a decade. However, the trend reversed last year as the economic crisis in the eurozone saw a rise in lower-skilled employment among citizens from Spain, Italy and Portugal of more than 40 per cent.

A source close to Mr Duncan-Smith said: “Our plan has involved taking decisive steps on welfare and immigration to prevent abuse of free movement and protect … the UK benefits system.”

Until the start of this year Romanians and Bulgarians could come to work in Britain only if an employer had backed a visa, if they were self-employed or on a temporary basis to fill fruit-picking jobs or other agricultural work.

The ONS figures also showed that the number of migrant workers from eastern Europe reached 728,000 at the end of last year. The total number of EU workers was 1,712,000, up 8 per cent year-on-year.

Quelle surprise.


cargill55 - a day ago

Farage and UKIP were right, then, not a surprise.


GreatBrithole - a day ago

'James Brokenshire, the immigration minister, said: “These figures show we are building an immigration system that works in the national interest. '

Which figures show this?

All that the coalition have done is to continue where Labour left off in engineering the complete destruction of everything that used to be good about this country. Their rhetoric does not match their actions at all and it's quite clear that they are at war with the indigenous British people, financially, politically, psychologically and genocidally.


thecccuuttsman - a day ago

No wonder it takes three weeks to get a doctors appointment..

I told you so. Now just wait until the 2014 figures... and the morons in Labour, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats want the 80m and very poor Republic of Turkey to join the EU which will mean open borders with a country that borders Iraq.

Isn't it time we gained control of our own borders like Australia? Thoughts?

[The Don]

Of course the numbers are gonna rise when you remove restrictions, isn't that common sense?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Of course the numbers are gonna rise when you remove restrictions, isn't that common sense?

But as I understand it, the numbers here went up before the restrictions were even lifted.

Yet that didn't stop the Government, Guardian and others after January 1st 2014 saying how Farage, Daily Mail/Express and others had 'scaremongered' over the threat of a flood of Romanian and Bulgarians when it turns out that the flood has been taking place even prior to the restrictions being lifted.

[The Don]

But as I understand it, the numbers here went up before the restrictions were even lifted.

Yet that didn't stop the Government, Guardian and others after January 1st 2014 saying how Farage, Ukip and others had 'scaremongered' over the threat of a flood of Romanian and Bulgarians when it turns out that the flood has been taking place even prior to the restrictions being lifted.

Because the restrictions were about to be removed?

They were scaremongering, it's hardly the end of the world that a few Romanians and Bulgarians are coming over.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Because the restrictions were about to be removed?

What's that got to do with it? Common sense would predict that if anything we are going to experience an even worse surge in migrants coming over here in 2014 - something that the Government, EU, Guardian and others all said was 'scaremongering rubbish'.

Just like in 2004 when they said exactly the same and were dead wrong. Predicted 14,000 a year and ended up with hundreds of thousands.


They were scaremongering

So even when the official figures (which are usually bs anyway, it usually turns out to be much worse than the Government say) prove that fears over mass immigration were correct, you still call it scaremongering. I think that sums up your argument: irrational.


it's hardly the end of the world that a few Romanians and Bulgarians are coming over.

You mean tens of thousands - which could go into the hundreds of thousands. It's very easy to sit there as our politicians do and say that, but if you are somebody on a lower wage having their wage depressed because of mass immigration, or your child can't get into the best school because you're being driven out by the children of newcomers, or the waiting list in your local hospital or doctors is crammed full, or if nobody speaks the language in your area anymore and you feel alienated (as you would)...... then it's a different story.

But I think your attitude sums up perfectly what the rich, insulated people running this country think of the issue which is that open borders are utterly fantastic if you live in Chipping Norton or Islington and that anybody who opposes such an idea must be a racist, insane or scaremongering.

I just wish our politicians would be more honest like you and say that they fully support open borders and all that it comes with it and that it isn't the end of the world if you suffer all of those problems in your area that I mentioned. Essentially, let them eat cake.

[myles]

GET EM OUT GET EM OUT

[The Don]

So even when the official figures (which are usually bs anyway, it usually turns out to be much worse than the Government say) prove that fears over mass immigration were correct, you still call it scaremongering. I think that sums up your argument: irrational.

Nice try, shame I was referring to them scaremongering over the damage caused by Romanians and Bulgarians coming over, not anything to do with the numbers. Try reading the full sentence in the proper context next time rather than splitting it up to make it look as if they were two different points when clearly I went on to explain what I was referring to with the scaremongering comment.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Nice try, shame I was referring to them scaremongering over the damage caused by Romanians and Bulgarians coming over, not anything to do with the numbers. Try reading the full sentence in the proper context next time rather than splitting it up to make it look as if they were two different points when clearly I went on to explain what I was referring to with the scaremongering comment.

Tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of people coming over (especially in an unpredictable manner) does cause a lot of damage in terms of school places, hospitals, jobs, wage rates, social cohesion, social tensions, crime and housing. It's like stating that pigs don't fly.

You can twist this anyway you want. The people's of Europe are turning against open border madness.

[The Don]

Tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of people coming over (especially in an unpredictable manner) does cause a lot of damage in terms of school places, hospitals, jobs, wage rates, social cohesion, social tensions, crime and housing. It's like stating that pigs don't fly.

You can twist this anyway you want. The people's of Europe are turning against open border madness.

We've had these debates before and if I recall correctly you simply stopped replying? I think you are greatly exaggerating simply because you hate the EU and want some more ammo.

[Kardan]

So, let's have a look at ALL the data...

By country of birth, number of employed people in the UK between Oct and Dec 2013:

Total: 30,241,000
UK: 25,768,000
Non-UK: 4,457,000
Non-EU: 2,745,000
EU: 1,712,000
Rest of the World: 1,026,000
Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and Sweden: 810,000
Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovak Republic and Slovenia: 728,000
Africa excluding South Africa: 583,000
India: 427,000
Pakistan and Bangladesh: 325,000
South Africa: 153,000
Romania and Bulgaria: 144,000
USA: 101,000

So, you guys might be worrying about all the 144,000 Romanians and Bulgarians and talking about the EU whilst just ignoring the 2.7million non-Europeans working in the country.

So, before you moan that they are talking all our jobs, please also mention the Africans, South Africans, Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and frankly, almost the rest of the world.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, this "surges to a record high" - yes, it did reach a new high. It reached a new high of 144,000 from it's previous high of 141,000.

- - - Updated - - -


Tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of people coming over (especially in an unpredictable manner) does cause a lot of damage in terms of school places, hospitals, jobs, wage rates, social cohesion, social tensions, crime and housing. It's like stating that pigs don't fly.

You can twist this anyway you want. The people's of Europe are turning against open border madness.

The data says absolutely NOTHING about Romanians and Bulgarians migrating to the UK.

[Stephen]

lets go bulgy bashing

[FlyingJesus]

Ahhhhhhhhh noooooooo people working make it stop ahhhhhhhh

[Ardemax]

There's absolutely nothing worse than people coming to this country to work

[Stephen]

There's absolutely nothing worse than people coming to this country to work

having your nails ripped off with pliers

or someone doing a smelly fart while you're eating your dinner

[-:Undertaker:-]

We've had these debates before and if I recall correctly you simply stopped replying? I think you are greatly exaggerating simply because you hate the EU and want some more ammo.

No, that was you like when you tried to make the silly comparison between the EU and Monarchy/House of Lords and Ryan and I put you in your place on how it was a crackers comparison.. yet it still didn't stop you bringing it up everytime we bring up the lack of democracy in the EU.

And what? I'm not exaggerating at all - hence why you've not replied to a word I wrote just then. As I said earlier, the attitudes of you and those in power is simply: let them eat cake.


So, let's have a look at ALL the data...

By country of birth, number of employed people in the UK between Oct and Dec 2013:

Total: 30,241,000
UK: 25,768,000
Non-UK: 4,457,000
Non-EU: 2,745,000
EU: 1,712,000
Rest of the World: 1,026,000
Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and Sweden: 810,000
Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovak Republic and Slovenia: 728,000
Africa excluding South Africa: 583,000
India: 427,000
Pakistan and Bangladesh: 325,000
South Africa: 153,000
Romania and Bulgaria: 144,000
USA: 101,000

So, you guys might be worrying about all the 144,000 Romanians and Bulgarians and talking about the EU whilst just ignoring the 2.7million non-Europeans working in the country.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, this "surges to a record high" - yes, it did reach a new high. It reached a new high of 144,000 from it's previous high of 141,000.

The data says absolutely NOTHING about Romanians and Bulgarians migrating to the UK.

I'm just as critical of that immigration too.

If you want I can start posting statistics about unemployment rates among Somalians and other nationalities if you would like me too, but you'll have to promise not to call me a racist/xenophobic/Islamophobic.

This thread however is about Romanian and Bulgarian immigration and how I and others who warned about a large influx were right, and how the Government and the Romanian and Bulgarian Governments were wrong. The start of getting control of our borders back - from both our pathetic government and the EU - is criticsing the present policy failures of which this is one.


So, before you moan that they are talking all our jobs, please also mention the Africans, South Africans, Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and frankly, almost the rest of the world.

But wouldn't that be waycist?

For example whenever i've made the point before on Islamic mass immigration and the cultural threats Islam poses, all I get from you lot is the retort that I should stop being mean to the Religion of Peace and that Islam and Islamic customs are no different to Christian or Jewish ones. How can one even reason with such insanity?


There's absolutely nothing worse than people coming to this country to work

When it's uncontrolled and we have unemployment problems our own it is.

Why does this always go back to 'well they work innit' anyway? The social strain, the tension, the dissolution of our culture, the lack of school places, the need for housing, the wage suppression, the unemployment of Britons... is none of this important to any of you? Do you simply not care as Don has made clear?

[The Don]

You're either too stubborn or stupid to understand that I was comparing you vilifying one thing for being unelected/undemocratic whilst simultaneously praising another for the very same thing. Not that hard to understand, is it? Ryan didn't read the thread title which was why he thought I was comparing the two, what's your excuse? Using terms like "waycist" isn't clever and doesn't solidify your argument or make your views less xenophobic. Fortunately UKIP are a minority.


No, that was you like when you tried to make the silly comparison between the EU and Monarchy/House of Lords and Ryan and I put you in your place on how it was a crackers comparison.. yet it still didn't stop you bringing it up everytime we bring up the lack of democracy in the EU.

And what? I'm not exaggerating at all - hence why you've not replied to a word I wrote just then. As I said earlier, the attitudes of you and those in power is simply: let them eat cake.



I'm just as critical of that immigration too.

If you want I can start posting statistics about unemployment rates among Somalians and other nationalities if you would like me too, but you'll have to promise not to call me a racist/xenophobic/Islamophobic.

This thread however is about Romanian and Bulgarian immigration and how I and others who warned about a large influx were right, and how the Government and the Romanian and Bulgarian Governments were wrong.



But wouldn't that be waycist?

For example whenever i've made the point before on Islamic mass immigration and the cultural threats Islam poses, all I get from you lot is the retort that I should stop being mean to the Religion of Peace and that Islam and Islamic customs are no different to Christian or Jewish ones. How can one even reason with such insanity?



When it's uncontrolled and we have unemployment problems our own it is.

Now are you lot capable of any reply other than a smart alec one?

[-:Undertaker:-]

You're either too stubborn or stupid to understand that I was comparing you vilifying one thing for being unelected/undemocratic whilst simultaneously praising another for the very same thing. Not that hard to understand, is it?

And you still don't get it.


Ryan didn't read the thread title which was why he thought I was comparing the two, what's your excuse? Using terms like "waycist" isn't clever and doesn't solidify your argument or make your views less xenophobic. Fortunately UKIP are a minority.

See? You just prove my point. Whenever somebody in this country questions the influx of hundreds of thousands of people - going into the millions - and presents the concerns that come with it over hospitals, schools, housing, social tensions .... all you can do is resort to calling your opponents names from racist to xenophobic to bigoted just like Gordon Brown.

Wanting a controlled immigration policy isn't xenophobic or racist and we're going to keep pushing this issue whether you lot like it or not. The Swiss are fighting back as are the Norwegians so GET USED TO IT.

[FlyingJesus]

Umm an increase of 3000 isn't a giant influx

[-:Undertaker:-]

Umm an increase of 3000 isn't a giant influx

I'm not talking about the increase, i'm talking about the numbers over all. We've been in the midst of a surge for years now when it comes to immigration and yet the PM and others were laughing saying how there's been no such thing when we're in the bloody midst of one.

The fact that it was still rising when the borders were supposed to be 'controlled' suggests to me that we're in for a very big shock come the end of this year when we find out the post-open borders numbers.

[FlyingJesus]

Yes you are this whole thread is about the supposed new influx... and ok but what's actually happened is a 2% increase in migration from those areas as opposed to the 40% that's being thrown around in the article - that number is how many more people from those countries are working in the UK which should surely be a reason to celebrate since it means that there's a huge decrease in the benefits they're claiming, which seems to be your worry

[e5]

Heard on the radio loads about this this morning.

How they'll work for so little and brits are losing out on work because bosses can employ polish people to work for minimum wage!

[God]

@Undertaker (http://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=11293); to lazy to actually look back and forth to get each and every silly symbol from his name.

Honestly are you one of them politicians? Tbh I thought this was another idiot Amurican politics b word complaining about how Immigrants are taking over his country.

NOPE

Its you once again with your mind so narrow not even a drop of water can slip through.


Anyways may I clear something up with you, considering your complaining about people from another country, the fact of the matter is, you have no problem to worry at all. A few Common things people like YOU are afraid of when it comes to immigrants is the following, which can easily be disproven;

1. That they're taking all the jobs.

Thing is, with more people coming into the country wherever they displace to will have an increase in population, meaning more jobs will be made, due to the increased demand for materials, homes, food, and such. It is a proven fact, yet I'll leave it for you to go find it for yourself.


2. They Depress Wages.


Unless they are without a High School diploma, which in the uk most do, then they're isn't a depression in wages, which would still be low. Immigrates are mostly Low Skilled, or Highly Skilled with few in the middle. Most "Born and Raised" people that are from the country are mostly in the middle, with few at the bottom and the top. Look at the Graph below. in the link.

http://prntscr.com/2u8x7v


3. They are a drag on the economy.

People for immigration agree that they arn't a drag on the economy, and even Most of those who dont want immigration agree with this too.



Anyways undertaker, if you can't even accept yourself (cough, cough, your preference in a sexual partner) then that shows, how narrow minded you truly are, clearly youre a bigot.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The first and last paragraphs are directed at your previous threads that uve posted

[Yawn]

wow thats u told then

[Kardan]

This thread however is about Romanian and Bulgarian immigration

No, this thread is about Romanian and Bulgarian employment.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yes you are this whole thread is about the supposed new influx... and ok but what's actually happened is a 2% increase in migration from those areas as opposed to the 40% that's being thrown around in the article - that number is how many more people from those countries are working in the UK which should surely be a reason to celebrate since it means that there's a huge decrease in the benefits they're claiming, which seems to be your worry

I barely ever complain about the benefits being used, my primary concern with immigration isn't mostly economic either - my prime concern about immigration is the social and cultural aspect.


Heard on the radio loads about this this morning.

How they'll work for so little and brits are losing out on work because bosses can employ polish people to work for minimum wage!

Indeed, sometimes for even less as immigrants will often live 12 to a small crowded house which means that the average British worker just hasn't a chance of any work.

I don't blame the immigrants either - it's entirely the fault of the politicians for the open borders.


@Undertaker (http://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=11293); to lazy to actually look back and forth to get each and every silly symbol from his name.

Honestly are you one of them politicians? Tbh I thought this was another idiot Amurican politics b word complaining about how Immigrants are taking over his country.

NOPE

Its you once again with your mind so narrow not even a drop of water can slip through.

Oooh i'm narrow minded am I? The majority of the British public must be narrow minded then considering how immigration now ranks jointly with the economy as the top political issue in the polling and how a majority of Britons want immigration curbed hence why the political class at every election promises a clampdown on mass immigration.

You are the narrow minded one and you're in a minority on this.


Anyways may I clear something up with you, considering your complaining about people from another country, the fact of the matter is, you have no problem to worry at all. A few Common things people like YOU are afraid of when it comes to immigrants is the following, which can easily be disproven;

1. That they're taking all the jobs.

Thing is, with more people coming into the country wherever they displace to will have an increase in population, meaning more jobs will be made, due to the increased demand for materials, homes, food, and such. It is a proven fact, yet I'll leave it for you to go find it for yourself.

That is total rubbish. Even if this were true, the fact is that the economy hasn't been in great shape for a while coupled with the fact that many immigrants - especially Eastern European immigrants which the thread is about - either a) send most if not all of their money earnt back home & b) are on such low wages that they are a net burden on the state rather than a net benefit.


2. They Depress Wages.


Unless they are without a High School diploma, which in the uk most do, then they're isn't a depression in wages, which would still be low. Immigrates are mostly Low Skilled, or Highly Skilled with few in the middle. Most "Born and Raised" people that are from the country are mostly in the middle, with few at the bottom and the top. Look at the Graph below. in the link.

http://prntscr.com/2u8x7v

This is rubbish and has been dismissed by many men working in the trade industries such as brickies, plumbers and electricians. If you allow a lot of people in with a skill, as what happened during the boom of the last decade, you will force that sectors wages downwards or have them stagnate in comparison to the wages of the rest of the country thus meaning that the people working in those sectors will suffer with inflation even if their wages don't go downwards.

If a plumber was earning £30,000 a year in 2001 and was earning the same amount in 2011 because of mass immigration, then he's lost out when inflation is taken into consideration.


3. They are a drag on the economy.

People for immigration agree that they arn't a drag on the economy, and even Most of those who dont want immigration agree with this too.

Mass immigration by it's nature adds to the GDP because more people = more GDP. India for example has a GDP close behind the United Kingdom, yet you misunderstand one thing and it's this: GDP per capita. We could hypothetically important 500m Africans tommorow and i'm sure our GDP would jump to the third highest in the world........ yet GDP per capita would mean that most of the population would be living in third world conditions.

So immigration = good for economy is a false argument. Controlled immigration on the other hand - which is what I am making the case for - is good for the economy.


Anyways undertaker, if you can't even accept yourself (cough, cough, your preference in a sexual partner) then that shows, how narrow minded you truly are, clearly youre a bigot.

I am confused as to what this has to do with anything that's been discussed. Nevertheless, does that surely not show that I use my head rather than heart when looking at issues? That although I may want something to be true, I cannot convince myself out of choice for it to be correct, right or true? That would make me very open minded, as opposed to narrow minded which is what you claimed I was at the start of the thread.

Abortion is another issue for example where by I hated changing my opinion on it but couldn't resist the logic.


No, this thread is about Romanian and Bulgarian employment.

Oh come off it, don't mince the subject. Romanian and Bulgarians coming here (which is another member state of the European Union) to work is what immigration is.

[Kardan]

Oh come off it, don't mince the subject. Romanian and Bulgarians coming here (which is another member state of the European Union) to work is what immigration is.

The ONS has this as a disclaimer on the bottom of their data that we are discussing in this thread:


The estimates shown in this table relate to the number of people in employment and should not be used as a proxy for flows of foreign migrants into the UK.

So if you want to use data that backs up your views on IMMIGRATION do not use data which is solely based on EMPLOYMENT.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The ONS has this as a disclaimer on the bottom of their data that we are discussing in this thread:

So if you want to use data that backs up your views on IMMIGRATION do not use data which is solely based on EMPLOYMENT.

You are trying to make it out as though foreign workers coming into the United Kingdom to work is completely different and unrelated to the subject of mass (and EU) immigration. Can I have some of whatever you are smoking?

[Kardan]

You are trying to make it out as though foreign workers coming into the United Kingdom to work is completely different and unrelated to the subject of mass (and EU) immigration. Can I have some of whatever you are smoking?

This is where you are wrong.

Nowhere in the data does it say 'Number of foreign-born people immigrating to the UK and now employed' it says 'Number of foreign-born people employed in the UK'. Let's say you have a big influx of immigration in 2005, but all of the people stay unemployed, this data would show 0 new workers. But let's say all those people stay unemployed until 2013 - now there will be a big influx in employment - all this data is saying is that more Romanians and Bulgarians are employed, NOT that they have moved into the UK.

It's two totally different things, it's pretty easy to grasp that they are not equal. There might be correlation between the two, but that does not make the data equal.

[FlyingJesus]

That's what I was saying before and he deflected it by saying that he cares about social and cultural things more... before going back to talking about the economy

[-:Undertaker:-]

This is where you are wrong.

Nowhere in the data does it say 'Number of foreign-born people immigrating to the UK and now employed' it says 'Number of foreign-born people employed in the UK'. Let's say you have a big influx of immigration in 2005, but all of the people stay unemployed, this data would show 0 new workers. But let's say all those people stay unemployed until 2013 - now there will be a big influx in employment - all this data is saying is that more Romanians and Bulgarians are employed, NOT that they have moved into the UK.

It's two totally different things, it's pretty easy to grasp that they are not equal. There might be correlation between the two, but that does not make the data equal.

I'm sorry but that isn't even what i'm arguing, your trying to point score over something that's entirely irrelevent. The point being made by the article and myself is that open borders with Romania and Bulgaria over the past decade (along with other countries) is out of control and that in such bad economic times, it's unacceptable to continue allowing such numbers to both remain and come into the United Kingdom.

It's as simple as that really. I agree with controlled borders and you don't. Why not just come out in the open and say such a thing instead of mashing up the topic into what it isn't? Again, if you have issues with how the Telegraph as presented the article then I suggest you take it up with them and not with me as i'm wanting to have a general discussion over immigration.


That's what I was saying before and he deflected it by saying that he cares about social and cultural things more... before going back to talking about the economy

Well that's because I do, yet all you lot seem to be able to reply in response is 'well their working arent they' so obviously i'm going to have to respond to the economic points to such arguments, as I just did with Dragga. Nevertheless whilst the social and cultural issue is my biggest concern, that's not to say the economic issues resulting from uncontrolled immigration don't bother me or concern me because they do.

[Kardan]

I'm sorry but that isn't even what i'm arguing, your trying to point score over something that's entirely irrelevent. The point being made by the article and myself is that open borders with Romania and Bulgaria over the past decade (along with other countries) is out of control and that in such bad economic times, it's unacceptable to continue allowing such numbers to both remain and come into the United Kingdom.

It's as simple as that really. I agree with controlled borders and you don't. Why not just come out in the open and say such a thing instead of mashing up the topic into what it isn't? Again, if you have issues with how the Telegraph as presented the article then I suggest you take it up with them and not with me as i'm wanting to have a general discussion over immigration.



Well that's because I do, yet all you lot seem to be able to reply in response is 'well their working arent they' so obviously i'm going to have to respond to the economic points to such arguments, as I just did with Dragga. Nevertheless whilst the social and cultural issue is my biggest concern, that's not to say the economic issues resulting from uncontrolled immigration don't bother me or concern me because they do.

Then the article and yourself shouldn't back up your points with data that is unsuitable, you need to use immigration data, not employment data.

[FlyingJesus]

The article's about workers, unemployment, and benefits. Why on earth would anyone assume that you want to talk about the social aspects of immigration from that

[The Don]

Err what? I work for minimum wage. If some British people refuse to work due to the pay being minimum wage that's not a problem with foreigners stealing jobs, that's a problem with the attitude of those people, those who would rather claim benefits than work.


Heard on the radio loads about this this morning.

How they'll work for so little and brits are losing out on work because bosses can employ polish people to work for minimum wage!

[e5]

Err what? I work for minimum wage. If some British people refuse to work due to the pay being minimum wage that's not a problem with foreigners stealing jobs, that's a problem with the attitude of those people, those who would rather claim benefits than work.

You're not alone. I don't earn much above minimum and that wasn't my point. This what a labouring job which requires some skill, training etc and on return you receive a good wage from it. You wouldn't expect minimum wage doing that job - but these polish workers would and employers sacked the other workers to make way. They'd also work ridiculous hours too.

This is not my views but what I heard on radio 2 today

[Firehorse]

I'm fine with people coming here to work, but I disagree with them coming here to claim benefits. I can't even afford to live where I do, and I'd put that down to overpopulation.

[God]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1960068_620101258060090_2038652577_n.jpg

@NativeAmericans

Basically your mad about these immigrants.

The Native Americans had to deal with "your" people

[-:Undertaker:-]

The article's about workers, unemployment, and benefits. Why on earth would anyone assume that you want to talk about the social aspects of immigration from that

Because mass immigration impacts low wage jobs. That's why.




@NativeAmericans

Basically your mad about these immigrants.

The Native Americans had to deal with "your" people

Indeed, so why would we want to repeat the mistakes of the past and destroy our own culture via mass immigration?

[FlyingJesus]

Jobs are now social rather than economic ok

[Kardan]

-:Undertaker:-;

As I said earlier in the thread, these statistics DO NOT mean anything to do with immigration, and today ONS have released data that prove this.

This thread gave the data: 42,000 MORE Romanians and Bulgarians have been employed in the last year.

Today's data: 24,000 MORE Romanians and Bulgarians have immigrated to the UK in the last year.

As I said, more employment does not equal more immigration.

[-:Undertaker:-]

-:Undertaker:-;

As I said earlier in the thread, these statistics DO NOT mean anything to do with immigration, and today ONS have released data that prove this.

This thread gave the data: 42,000 MORE Romanians and Bulgarians have been employed in the last year.

Today's data: 24,000 MORE Romanians and Bulgarians have immigrated to the UK in the last year.

As I said, more employment does not equal more immigration.

It is linked as naturally Romanians and Bulgarians being here employed is de facto immigration/migration.

What jobs they are doing I would like to see a breakdown, but if they are in lower wage end jobs then I see no reason why - and this is if we had a work permit scheme rather than open borders - their permits should be expired as we simply do not need foreign workers to fill in the unemployment gap in the lower wage end of the market. It's pretty simple.

[FlyingJesus]

It is linked as naturally Romanians and Bulgarians being here employed is de facto immigration/migration.

Not necessarily, it's more a case of the previously unemployed ones getting employment which is a good thing.

ps Britons move around Europe doing the same thing while still claiming British benefits too in similar numbers (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5cd640f6-9025-11e3-a776-00144feab7de.html#axzz2uYVebnql)