The French shall eat as one, says Marine Le Pen

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10746273/Frances-Le-Pen-ban-non-pork-meals-in-schools.html

France's Le Pen: ban non-pork meals in schools

Leader of France's surging party says schools should not pander to Jewish and Muslim children by offering non-Pork alternatives for lunch


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02711/Marine-Le-Pen_2711095b.jpg
Marine Le Pen, leader of the Front National


School canteens will no longer offer non-pork meal options in towns where France's pro-controlled immigration, Front National (FN) party won local elections, its leader Marine Le Pen has said.

Mrs Le Pen reignited debate on a sensitive issue about the substitution meals for Muslim and Jewish pupils for whom pork is taboo.

"We will accept no religious requirements in the school lunch menus," Mrs Le Pen told RTL radio. "There is no reason for religion to enter into the public sphere."

She defended the decision saying it was necessary to "save secularism".

The FN, which has been polling equally with the main two parties, won control of 11 towns and more than 1,400 municipal seats nationwide in recent local elections, easily its best ever performance at the grassroots level of French government.

This has caused great unease among a section of the population.

Many Muslims view France, which is officially a secular republic despite being overwhelmingly Catholic, as imposing its values on them and other religious minorities.

France has one of the biggest Muslim populations in Europe.

The issue of halal meat is also a controversial topic in France and has been used as a political football.

Mrs Le Pen had launched a fierce row before the last presidential polls in 2012 by claiming that all meat distributed in the Paris region was halal, or slaughtered according to Islamic law, and that non-Muslim consumers were being misled.

There has been controversy in the past over whether schools and holiday camps should be required to provide halal food for Muslim children, as well as higher-profile disputes over the wearing of veils in France.

Any form of clothing linked to religious observance is banned from French state schools and since 2011 the wearing of full-face veils in public has been outlawed.

I have to say that I agree with her 100%.

When minorities come to this country or any other European country, they should be under nothing else than the impression that while they are welcome to contribute and become a part of us: that integration is a one way street. You move to France? You adopt or at least abide by French customs and traditions and thereby become French in time. You come to Britain? Fine, but you adopt and abide by British customs and traditions and thereby become British in time. The majority should not be forced to pander to a minority.

One comment on another article on this had it exactly right, they recall going to school a few decades ago here in Britain and some Jewish kids went to the school. On the days that pork was on the menu, the Jewish kids simply brought in a packed lunch. And that is the way it should be done - the menu for the majority shouldn't be changed for a minority and the minority should accomodate itself to the majority.

Also the article headline and title twist what she means - she doesn't mean ban EVERYTHING that isn't pork and have everyone eating pork 24/7 for the sake of it, what she means is that say the school is serving pork on the thursday then the school shouldn't have to go out of it's way to pander to other students of other religions. It seems pretty fair to me.

Thoughts?

[karter]

When minorities come to this country or any other European country

so this doesn't apply to any other non-european country why

[-:Undertaker:-]

so this doesn't apply to any other non-european country why

Oh every other country too, absolutely. I mention European countries mainly though as that's the political context I am talking about, as well as the fact that it seems to be European nations that are the ones which have to bend over backwards to please minorities.

[The Don]

the menu for the majority shouldn't be changed for a minority and the minority should accomodate itself to the majority.

Like smoking in public places, right?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Like smoking in public places, right?

Smoking in public places is on private property, not state property like a school.

And secondly, the taxpayer isn't paying to have people smoke. The state in this case however is paying for alternative meals to be provided.

Non sequitur my friend.

[Chippiewill]

And secondly, the taxpayer isn't paying to have people smoke.

They are paying to treat.

[-:Undertaker:-]

They are paying to treat.

Smokers pay in more than they take out of the NHS, nice try though.

Do we have any more stupid comparisons with smoking that I have to debunk?

Or should I explain property rights again?

[GommeInc]

They could just offer two menus, although back when common sense existed if you liked something you just made your own.

[Chippiewill]

Smokers pay in more than they take out of the NHS, nice try though.
Muslims taxpayers pay in more than enough to cover the cost of a non-pork meal.

[-:Undertaker:-]

They could just offer two menus, although back when common sense existed if you liked something you just made your own.

That costs money though, which I think is the main reason the Front National have done this.

I would have quite liked curry & curly chips everyday at school, but hey I had to make do. As you say - don't like the menu? Bring your own stuff.


Muslims taxpayers pay in more than enough to cover the cost of a non-pork meal.

That's a non-comparison again, you've gone so far off topic that I can see Pluto from here. If we worked on that premise, then we'd simply remove subsidies from school meals (something I would actually support) and make everyone pay seperate... but that still wouldn't gurantee that everybody got the meal of their choice because of the simple fact that schools have to buy things in bulk and cook it in bulk.

If the school is going out of it's way to provide portions specifically for a minority of children then it's therefore costing more per child than everybody else because it's not being bought in bulk quantities or cooked together, meaning higher costs for a smaller % of kids.

The idea that the taxpayer should be paying so that a few Jewish or Muslim kids in the school can have it their way is ridiculous and French voters agree with me. The question is this: do the majority of the French pander and change their customs (or pay more) for a minority?

[Chippiewill]

The idea that the taxpayer should be paying so that a few Jewish or Muslim kids in the school can have it their way is ridiculous and French voters agree with me. The question is this: do the majority of the French pander and change their customs (or pay more) for a minority?

10% is hardly insignificant.

[-:Undertaker:-]

10% is hardly insignificant.

90% should now pay more for the 10%? Or change our menus for the 10%? To hell with that.

When immigrants come into a country, the rules should be very clear. That the customs and laws of that country will not be changed for the new arrivals and that they are expected to integrate with the French or find an alternative themselves. Is that waycist? Or just common sense?

[Chippiewill]

90% should now pay more for the 10%? Or change our menus for the 10%? To hell with that.

Do you not understand how taxes work? NOTHING IS FAIR. Taxes are in NO WAY a get what you give system. Young people pour in way more money than they take out, and old people take out more money than they ever even put in.

Take MOT for instance. Lorries deal fourty THOUSAND times the amount of damage that a car does to the roads, they don't pay a proportional amount of MOT though.

It's not a matter of fairness, nor a matter of cost. It's a matter of reasonable ethics. And yes, in fact, it does make you a bad person to think otherwise.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Do you not understand how taxes work? NOTHING IS FAIR. Taxes are in NO WAY a get what you give system. Young people pour in way more money than they take out, and old people take out more money than they ever even put in.

Take MOT for instance. Lorries deal fourty THOUSAND times the amount of damage that a car does to the roads, they don't pay a proportional amount of MOT though.

Yes I know how taxes work, indeed I just explained that in my edit regarding how it costs more per head of Muslim/Jewish kids by simple economics as schools buy food in bulk and if they're having to buy seperate food for a minority of kids then it's costing them more per head for those select few pupils. That ain't a fair system, but obviously you disagree!


It's not a matter of fairness, nor a matter of cost. It's a matter of reasonable ethics. And yes, in fact, it does make you a bad person to think otherwise.

Oh it's ethics is it? aka pandering.

Okay so, are the University of East London wrong to ban the Islamic conference (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100268072/university-of-east-london-bans-segregated-muslim-event-from-its-premises/) on the basis that the meeting was to be seperated along religious lines with men and women sitting seperately? Would it be acceptable in your eyes for a Muslim majority school to ban gay relationships on state property? See, I don't think any of that should be pandered to and that they should be told - no, you integrate WITH US and not the other way around and we will not ever ever accept the changing of our customs and values to please the vocal minority. But evidently you think differently and they we should be 'compassionate' and 'understanding' and bend over backwards. Just like Islamic countries bend over backwards for other minorities, ey. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but i've had enough of this self-loathing garbage. Screw your made-up ethics, in France you do it the French way or it's the highway.

[GommeInc]

That costs money though, which I think is the main reason the Front National have done this.

I would have quite liked curry & curly chips everyday at school, but hey I had to make do. As you say - don't like the menu? Bring your own stuff.
Indeed, and in this day in age with allergies or special dietary requirements, it's usually common sense to make your own anyway. If you have no allergies or special dietary requirements, and are happy to eat literally anything you shouldn't have a problem, especially when school menus are simple for children anyway.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Indeed, and in this day in age with allergies or special dietary requirements, it's usually common sense to make your own anyway. If you have no allergies or special dietary requirements, and are happy to eat literally anything you shouldn't have a problem, especially when school menus are simple for children anyway.

Exactly, and to be honest I don't actually think most moderate Muslims or Jews would have a problem with it. Just as I wouldn't be shocked if I moved to India and had curry on the school menu for my kids, or moved to Spain and had paella on the menu. I wouldn't demand the menu be changed to accomodate my British cuisine tastes, nor would I expect them to change it for me.

It's like the comment I read and wrote out earlier where somebody recalled having Jewish kids in the school, and on pork days they just brought their own stuff in: being culturally sensitive and respectful to what is a Christian country.

Much of the pandering and concern/worry for 'offending' comes from white liberals. :P

[GommeInc]

Exactly, and to be honest I don't actually think most moderate Muslims or Jews would have a problem with it. Just as I wouldn't be shocked if I moved to India and had curry on the school menu for my kids, or moved to Spain and had paella on the menu. I wouldn't demand the menu be changed to accomodate my British cuisine tastes, nor would I expect them to change it for me.

Much of the pandering and concern/worry for 'offending' comes from white liberals. :P
Well to be fair paella or curry tend to not alter the meat or do anything outrageous to it, although if you don't care this is irrelevant and you could scoff yourself on curry and paella until your heart's content :P

It wouldn't surprise me if it is white liberals. The Christmas stamp controversy was made by an OTT liberal think-group, that seeing Jesus, the Manger and Santa was offensive. When Muslims went on television they praised the Christian event because it teaches something Islam doesn't and can easily be transferred to being neutral and not necessarily religious (good will, peace, happiness and friendship etc.) Also, what are the children having which contains pork? They could just not eat the pork - vegetarians would be told the same thing. That said, France isn't exactly a hotbed for vegetarians :P

[Zak]

You come to Britain? Fine, but you adopt and abide by British customs and traditions and thereby become British in time. The majority should not be forced to pander to a minority.


I couldn't agree with you more!

[Kyle]

good heavens above

the French really really hate anything religious in schools, don't they?

[GommeInc]

good heavens above

the French really really hate anything religious in schools, don't they?
Given the free movement of people, if anyone is against the French way of life you could just go to Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain or Germany :P

[God]

Well considering they believe in a fairy tale about pork being cursed or w.e there is no PROPER reason to offer them an alternative meal. What I believe if they want to believe in pork is bad (which it isn't and I cant live without bacon) then **** them. Eat off the Vegan/Vegetarian Meals if possible. If not, bring your own food.

Honestly amazes me what indoctrination can do to someone. This meat bad, lets big man **** little girl.

[GommeInc]

Well considering they believe in a fairy tale about pork being cursed or w.e there is no PROPER reason to offer them an alternative meal. What I believe if they want to believe in pork is bad (which it isn't and I cant live without bacon) then **** them. Eat off the Vegan/Vegetarian Meals if possible. If not, bring your own food.

Honestly amazes me what indoctrination can do to someone. This meat bad, lets big man **** little girl.
France isn't known for being vegan/vegetarian friendly :P They would literally have to bring their own food and ignore the fine French cuisine!

[God]

France isn't known for being vegan/vegetarian friendly :P They would literally have to bring their own food and ignore the fine French cuisine!

Well there is lots of very good french food, but some people are just crazy :l

[GommeInc]

Well there is lots of very good french food, but some people are just crazy :l
I wouldn't say crazy, but if you have specific dietary needs you should probably just make your own food. Treat it similarly to allergies except without hiding them away in separate rooms when someone opens up a packet of nuts :P

[The Don]

Well considering they believe in a fairy tale about pork being cursed or w.e there is no PROPER reason to offer them an alternative meal. What I believe if they want to believe in pork is bad (which it isn't and I cant live without bacon) then **** them. Eat off the Vegan/Vegetarian Meals if possible. If not, bring your own food.

Honestly amazes me what indoctrination can do to someone. This meat bad, lets big man **** little girl.

You're clueless. I'm not religious at all but brushing their beliefs off as fairy tales is incredibly disrespectful. Arrogance and self righteousness is not a good look. If I'm paying taxes which goes towards funding schools and in turn school meals I expect an alternative if I can't eat meat for whatever dietary reason.

[Inseriousity.]

Well in a French context it makes sense. Officially, religion is a big no. Unofficially, I'd be curious to see what this was like 'on the ground.' I honestly do not understand the integration argument, to me, it goes against basic human nature. Abide by the laws, yep, I can go with that but to imply that someone eating different food is somehow incompatible with British culture and tradition seems a stretch. Full integration is impossible because you can't just throw away your experiences.

If you are a law-abiding citizen who just wants to put their head down and get on with a normal day-to-day life - which is true for the vast majority of people regardless of where they are born - then you are compatible with British culture.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well in a French context it makes sense. Officially, religion is a big no. Unofficially, I'd be curious to see what this was like 'on the ground.' I honestly do not understand the integration argument, to me, it goes against basic human nature.

But laws are the product of a nation, and a nation is the product of a group of people being similar enough to one another to live together. For a democracy to exist, you need a group of culturally similar enough people to agree to live under the same political + legal system.

Nobody suggests that we all have to eat pie and chips everyday, sing God Save the Queen before we go to bed and wear compulsory tweed flatcaps. But it is practical and rational to suggest that migrants who move here will be expected to integrate (and will naturally as history has proven) as time moves by... you can see this with many Asians who adopt British names after a few generations here, as they've become a full part of this country. The same goes for Jews who fled mainland Europe in the 1800's and early 1900's.... they're completely integrated with the home culture.

Integration is a good thing - but it's when the home culture starts pandering to minorities that integration begins to falter. The French for example, so I have read in the past, refuse to print things like council letters/application forms in any language other than French.


good heavens above

the French really really hate anything religious in schools, don't they?

Yup, it stems from the French Revolution of course. Much like the American Revolution.

[Inseriousity.]

How does integration falter though? How does providing halal meat for Muslims, non pork for Jews affect your life in any way? How does it create a seismic shift in a national culture? It's just so ridiculous to assume the collapse of society, norms and traditions will suddenly occur over a part of culture that you've just said is not hugely important in the bigger picture ("nobody suggests we also eat pie and chips everyday" btw its fish and chips you non-brit!). You also said they're a minority so a minority will never have enough status or power to change the majority norm. That's sort of how norms work.

[karter]

Just like Islamic countries bend over backwards for other minorities, ey. :rolleyes:

Yes they do - UAE and Qatar often do not impose Islamic laws on non-muslim minorities

Brunei does not impose tough Sharia laws on non-muslims, there are obviously many other examples but these are what I know of

[-:Undertaker:-]

How does integration falter though? How does providing halal meat for Muslims, non pork for Jews affect your life in any way? How does it create a seismic shift in a national culture? It's just so ridiculous to assume the collapse of society, norms and traditions will suddenly occur over a part of culture that you've just said is not hugely important in the bigger picture ("nobody suggests we also eat pie and chips everyday" btw its fish and chips you non-brit!).

Because if you start treating different parts of the population is a seperate manner then it creates the feeling of being seperate both for the minority population and the population at large. If, for example, you start printing council letters and applications in every language known to man as well as providing translators in hospitals - where is the pressure on newly arrived immigrants to conform and learn the language of the host country? There is none. And especially regarding language, without knowing the language of most of your countrymen then how can you even begin to become a part of that country other than simply holding a passport? You can't.

In regards to the food point, it's not as important as other issues of integration but it is a simple matter of principle in that the customs and traditions of this country or those of the French Republic are not up for renegotiation. Once you start giving ground to minorities in aspects like this, then the demands will only grow and you'll again halt integration. We have seen this with Halal meat in this country where restaurants have now started selling ONLY halal meat just to cater to the demands of a small minority. There you have a big shift in cuisine, caused by a small and vocal group.


You also said they're a minority so a minority will never have enough status or power to change the majority norm. That's sort of how norms work.

For now.

But again, a minority doesn't have to have a simple majority to affect the culture of politics of a nation. I ask this for example: if a vote on gay rights were being debated in parliament and you had 30% of the population of this country as Muslim - most of whom had not integrated with the host country - do you not think that the MPs would then be thinking about that 30% of the vote when it comes to policy? Of course they would be.

The same for foreign policy. If 40% of this country were Islamic of both Shia and Sunni, do you not think that foreign policy in regards to Syria or Iraq for example would then bring Britain closer to involvement in that sort of religious war than it otherwise would have done? The Syria issue is a HUGE issue in the Islamic world - why? Because many of them are similar enough (and Islam affects politics) so that it crosses borders. And that's not something I want for Britain, I do not want our politics to start mirroring the religious divides of a religion that has no historical basis in this country's culture or history.


Put simply, if you come into my house then you respect and obey my customs. Don't like? Then don't enter my house.

Yes they do - UAE and Qatar often do not impose Islamic laws on non-muslim minorities

Brunei does not impose tough Sharia laws on non-muslims, there are obviously many other examples but these are what I know of

Er what? Yes they do.

Qatar -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Qatar


Local laws reflect the fact that Qatar is an Islamic country. You should respect local traditions, customs, laws and religions at all times and be aware of your actions to ensure that they do not offend other cultures or religious beliefs, especially during the holy month of Ramadan or if you intend to visit religious areas.

The holy month of Ramadan is scheduled to fall between 28 June and 27 July 2014. See Travelling during Ramadan.

Importing drugs, alcohol, pornography, pork products and religious books and material into Qatar is illegal. All luggage is scanned at Doha Airport Arrivals Hall. DVDs and videos may be examined and censored. Penalties for drug offences are severe, often resulting in prison sentences.

It is an offence to drink alcohol or be drunk in public. Alcohol is available at licensed hotel restaurants and bars, and expatriates living in Qatar can obtain alcohol on a permit system. Don’t carry alcohol around with you (except to take it on the day of collection from the warehouse to your home).

You should dress modestly when in public, including while driving. Women should cover their shoulders and avoid wearing short skirts. Any intimacy in public between men and women (including between teenagers) can lead to arrest. Homosexual behaviour is illegal in Qatar.

UAE -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/united-arab-emirates/local-laws-and-customs - UAE travel advice.

Brunei -

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/brunei/local-laws-and-customs


Local laws reflect the fact that Brunei is an Islamic country. You should dress modestly and respect local traditions, customs, laws and religions at all times, especially during the holy month of Ramadan, or if you intend to visit religious areas. Under the new sharia criminal code it’s an offence for any person who consumes any food, drink or tobacco in public during the fasting hours of Ramadan. You could be fined up to B$4,000 and/or imprisoned for up to 1 year.

His Majesty The Sultan and other members of the Bruneian Royal Family are highly revered and public criticism of them would cause great offence.

On 22 October 2013 a new Sharia criminal code was enacted, which will be implemented in phases from 22 April 2014. The new code sets out severe corporal penalties and punishments, including death, for a variety of offences and in some cases will apply to non-Muslims.

Adultery (involving a Muslim) and close proximity between the sexes is deemed an offence under Bruneian Law and may attract a fine, imprisonment or both. In some circumstances, it may also attract corporal punishment. Under the new Sharia criminal code it is also an offence for any person who consumes any food, drink or tobacco in public during the fasting hours of Ramadan. You could be fined up to B$4,000 and/or imprisoned for up to 1 year.

Possession of pornographic material is illegal. Homosexual activity is illegal. There are severe penalties for all drug offences in Brunei including, in some cases, the death penalty. Other crimes may attract caning and lengthy prison sentences.

The sale of alcohol in Brunei is prohibited. Non-Muslims over 17 years of age may import duty free two bottles of wine or spirits and twelve cans of beer on entry into Brunei, but must declare them to the customs authorities on arrival. There must be at least a 48-hour gap between each import. Keep the customs slip in case of inspection. A list of other prohibited and restricted items is available on the Royal Customs and Excise Department’s website.

And i'm not saying they're wrong to have these rules either. It's entirely their right to maintain their own culture, as it is ours.

[Inseriousity.]

Language is different, this thread is specifically about food (I actually agree about the language, it is in their best interest to learn the language). If restaurants have started selling ONLY halal meat, according to your previous arguments, that their's private business and their right to do so. If you don't like that then don't go! It shouldn't 'other' people if schools serve non-pork because they are still obeying the laws, they are still just getting on with their life.

As for politicians, we've recently had a budget that is specifically targeted at older people because older people vote more so no I do not think they would pander to a minority vote when they need the support of the majority to get elected in the first place.

[karter]

Hence I said "often do not impose"


and "tough Sharia laws" (meaning you can still be sentenced for offences such as blasphemy, rape, murder along with petty offences and if you search up a bit there is a proposal for abolishing death sentences for nonmuslims)


Importing drugs, alcohol, pornography, pork products and religious books and material into Qatar is illegal.


So it should be legal to import drugs? Is this what you call bending backs for minorities? which minority is demanding this


It is an offence to drink alcohol or be drunk in public. Alcohol is available at licensed hotel restaurants and bars, and expatriates living in Qatar can obtain alcohol on a permit system. Don’t carry alcohol around with you (except to take it on the day of collection from the warehouse to your home)

Again, not a big deal. Consuming alcohol in public is illegal in many countries which are non-Islamic and similarly sale of alcohols at licensed restaurants isn't exactly a tough law


The sale of alcohol in Brunei is prohibited. Non-Muslims over 17 years of age may import duty free two bottles of wine or spirits and twelve cans of beer on entry into Brunei, but must declare them to the customs authorities on arrival.



and in some cases will apply to non-Muslims.


Literally proved my point.


Homosexual behaviour is illegal in Qatar.

Wrong. Same sex activity in case of females is legal, source is the link you gave me.

- - - Updated - - -

Also

Wearing a bikini, swimming suit or swimming trunks are only permitted on beaches, and it is illegal to go topless or wear a thong


Emiratis have been known for their religious tolerance, and churches, Hindu temples, Sikh Gurdwara can be found alongside mosques.

[Eric]

Also, Malaysia doesn't impose Shariah laws on non-muslims (chinese, indians)

And all National schools here sell pork-free/halal meals although some schools do offer various Chinese and Indian foods only if they're certified Halal or they know that they're pork free (nuts) but that's very rare and they mostly sell typical Malaysian foods which is fine for us. If you're a Muslim student studying at independent Chinese and Tamil schools then you'd have to bring your own food if you don't like what they're serving, however, there are Malays who sell foods at independent schools but again, that's rare