State schools isolate non-Muslims

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10775755/State-schools-isolate-non-Muslims.html

State schools isolate non-Muslims

Schools in Birmingham discrimate against non-Muslim students and restrict GCSE teaching to fit in with Islamic beliefs, according to official report


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02860/park-view_2860578b.jpg
Park View school in Birmingham, one of the 25 schools under investigation for alleged infiltration by extremism


Schools in Birmingham are illegally segregating pupils, discriminating against non-Muslim students and restricting the GCSE syllabus to “comply with conservative Islamic teaching”, an official report leaked to The Telegraph discloses.

Department for Education inspectors said that girls in a school at the centre of the so-called “Trojan Horse” plot were forced to sit at the back of the class, some Christian pupils were left to “teach themselves” and an extremist preacher was invited to speak to children.

The report, into three schools in the city, follows weeks of controversy over the alleged plot to “Islamise” secular schools in Birmingham and will lead to calls for intervention. The report focuses on Park View School and its sister schools, Golden Hillock and Nansen, the only primary of the three. Inspectors found that Park View practised forced and discriminatory sex segregation and has “restricted” GCSE subjects “to comply with conservative Islamic teaching”.

Core elements of the GCSE syllabus were missed out as “un-Islamic” and an extremist preacher with known al-Qaeda sympathies and anti-Semitic views was invited to speak with children. At Golden Hillock, there was discrimination against non-Muslims, the report found. Its handful of Christian students “have to teach themselves” in one GCSE subject after the teacher “concentrated on the students who were doing the Islamic course”.

At Nansen, Year 6 children, aged 10 and 11, received no teaching at all in the arts, humanities or music.

The document, classified “official-sensitive”, describes the results of inspections of the schools last month by officials from the DfE. All three are supposedly non-faith schools run by the Park View Educational Trust.

Allegations that radical Muslims were seeking to “Islamise” secular schools in Birmingham first emerged publicly last month in a leaked letter, describing an operation purportedly named “Trojan Horse”.

The letter supposedly described how activists could stir up Muslim parents to oust secular headteachers. Park View and its chairman of governors, Tahir Alam, were named in the letter as being at the centre of the plot. Mr Alam and the school have furiously denied the claims as “fictitious”, “Islamophobic” and a “witch-hunt”.

However, the leaked report substantiates many of the claims made against the school. It accuses Park View of 20 separate breaches of the law, the schools’ funding agreement with the DfE, and the Academy Schools Handbook.

The inspectors found that, contrary to its denials, Park View did practise forced and discriminatory gender segregation, with “boys sitting towards the front of the class and girls at the back or around the sides”.

The school has always claimed that any separation of the sexes was voluntary. However, the report says: “Students told us they were required to sit in the places which they were given by teachers.” This constituted “non-compliance with the Equality Act” and potentially “less favourable treatment for girls”. There was entirely separated teaching, in separate rooms, for some subjects, the report says.

The small number of Christian or non-Muslim pupils also suffered discrimination, the report says.

At Golden Hillock, five Christian students in Year 11 “have to teach themselves” in one GCSE subject, religious education, because the teacher gave all his or her time “to the students who are doing the Islamic course”.

Sheikh Shady al-Suleiman, an extremist preacher who “is known to extol... the stoning of homosexuals, anti-Semitic views [and is] sympathetic to al-Qaeda”, was invited to address students at Park View, the inspectors found.

The core curriculum at the two secondary schools had been Islamised, with GCSE subjects “restricted to comply with conservative Islamic teaching”.

Children told the inspectors that in biology the teacher “briefly delivered the theory of evolution to comply with the syllabus”, but told students that “this is not what we believe”.

In biology, the inspectors also found that “topics such as body structure and the menstrual cycle were not covered in class, though pupils needed them for the GCSE exam . . . students told us that as Muslims they were not allowed to study matters such as reproduction with the opposite sex”. At Park View, a “madrassah curriculum” was followed in personal, health and social education, the report said.

Though all the schools are supposed to be secular, the inspectors said they were not sufficiently welcoming to those of other faiths or no faith, with students at Park View encouraged to “begin and end each lesson with a prayer” and loudspeakers used to “broadcast the call for prayer across the school”.

The report added that the respected non-Muslim headteacher was marginalised, and female staff at one of the schools were treated in a “rude and dismissive” way.

Teaching standards and children’s safety were placed at risk after the schools’ management recruited close relatives, without adequate teaching experience or proper background checks, to key leadership posts.

At Golden Hillock, any discussion of sexual orientation or intimacy was banned, affecting “the broad and balanced teaching of many subjects, including art and English literature”, the inspectors found.

At Nansen, there were “no lessons in the humanities, arts or music” for one entire year, Year 6, and only “limited” teaching in Year 5. Arabic, however, was compulsory for all students — almost unheard of at a primary school.

Female staff at the schools were discriminated against, the report says. “One of the senior leaders [at Nansen] interviewed reported that she had never met a governor or been invited to a governing body meeting, although the male senior leader with similar responsibilities was invited to every meeting”.

At Golden Hillock, three members of staff told inspectors that governors were “rude to women and dismissive of their input” and that some governors “will not shake the hands of female senior leaders”.

The report makes clear that Park View’s most senior female leader, the non-Muslim executive headteacher, Lindsey Clark, had been reduced to a figurehead, marginalised to the extent that she “was unaware of the names of some of the more recent appointments to the senior leadership team” at her own school. Last week, Mrs Clark retired.

All three schools were in reality run by Mr Alam, who had an “inappropriate day-to-day role in the running of the schools” and who received undeclared four-figure payments from them as a “consultant”, the report states.

At Nansen the deputy headteacher, Razwan Faraz, “was appointed deputy only three years after [achieving] qualified teacher status”, the report says. No references from outside the schools were taken up for him.

As The Telegraph revealed last month, Mr Faraz, the brother of a convicted terrorist, is the administrator of a group of teachers, governors and school consultants called Educational Activists which pursues what he calls an “Islamising agenda” in Birmingham schools.

Mr Alam, a leading activist in the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), has a number of hardline views. In evidence for the MCB to the UN’s high commissioner for human rights in 2008, he said he would “caution against advocating that desegregation [in schools] should be actively pursued” and stressed the “obligatory nature” of the hijab for Muslim women and girls.

The disclosures came as Tristram Hunt, the shadow education secretary, prepared to make a strong attack on “divisive” attempts to impose religious values on secular schools.

Speaking at the NASUWT union conference in Birmingham, he was due to say: “We cannot have narrow, religious motives which seek to divide and isolate dictating state schooling. We cannot have headteachers forced out, teachers undermined, curricula rewritten and cultural or gender-based segregation.

“Indeed, it is more important than ever in a modern, multi-cultural city like this one that schooling serves to unite, not fracture communities.”

A spokesman for Park View Educational Trust said: “This is a confidential draft report which the trust is entitled to respond to within a given timescale and it should not have been made public. We are extremely disappointed that our entitlement to confidentiality has been breached and we will not comment any further.”

All so entirely predictable, unless you are a moron (like our politicians). This is why integration should be FORCED.

But you know, there's only so much you can do - with numbers like those that are coming in, including the high birthrate amongst certain groups as well as ghettos having sprung up everywhere - it's only a matter of time before it gets worse and worse and worse. The French are experiencing the same thing, as are the Dutch and the Swedish. The crime, the foreign languages, the discrimination, the 12th century attitudes.

Bring in large numbers of people with third world behaviour and 15th century views and what do you get? Exactly that.

Thoughts? Do you feel 'enriched' by this wonderful diversity? Would you like your kids to be a part of this multicultural paradise?

[The Don]

"Schools in Birmingham are illegally segregating pupils"

This is why religion should be kept out of state schools except taught in R.E

[-:Undertaker:-]

"Schools in Birmingham are illegally segregating pupils"

Hmmm, and? We can all read m'dear.

Apparently 25 schools are now under investigation - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-27020970

I'm so shocked by all this. Not.


This is why religion should be kept out of state schools except taught in R.E

Tell that to the socially conservative adherants of Islam (not just any 'religion') and see what they think of it.

Well why bother? They've already told you what they think of your laws by totally ignoring them. So what now?

[The Don]

Hmmm, and? We can all read m'dear.

Apparently 25 schools are now under investigation - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-27020970

I'm so shocked by all this. Not.

The actions of the few doesn't mean we should force people to renounce their religions to enter Britain. The people responsible for this in those schools should definitely face responsibility for their actions. It's terrible that the school system would allow for this to happen, although saying things such as 'third world behaviour' is downright racism 'or waycism' as you like to call it. This is a minority, not every muslim is trying to push their agendas, and the vast majority are innocent.

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Tell that to the socially conservative adherants of Islam (not just any 'religion') and see what they think of it.

Well why bother? They've already told you what they think of your laws by totally ignoring them. So what now?

Why would I tell them? they aren't the ones responsible for how state schools are run, the state is...

[FlyingJesus]

"So what now" is that they get investigated for illegal activities and are punished as such. I thought that much would be obvious. There is literally nothing to suggest that anyone in government or with legal authority is happy with this

[-:Undertaker:-]

The actions of the few doesn't mean we should force people to renounce their religions to enter Britain.

Did I say that?


The people responsible for this in those schools should definitely face responsibility for their actions. It's terrible that the school system would allow for this to happen, although saying things such as 'third world behaviour' is downright racism 'or waycism' as you like to call it.

Unbelievable. You call me a waycist for pointing out that this is third world, 15th century behaviour.

You want me to be nice to hardline Islamists who would like to see my country transformed? When hell freezes over my friend.


This is a minority, not every muslim is trying to push their agendas, and the vast majority are innocent.

Many muslims in western countries, especially where they aren't integrated, agree with these kinds of views as various studies on social attitudes have shown. This is because of a) the sheer numbers coming in & b) lack of integration.

So what now?


Why would I tell them? they aren't the ones responsible for how state schools are run, the state is...

Because you seem to have a lot to say but little on the solutions to stop this happening. The same for the state.


"So what now" is that they get investigated for illegal activities and are punished as such. I thought that much would be obvious. There is literally nothing to suggest that anyone in government or with legal authority is happy with this

Ooooooooh yes, that's really going to teach them.

You really think this thing isn't going to carry on? Of course it is. You will not, with any goodwill in the world, get to the point where these schools and neighbourhoods resemble anything like a normal British school. The area is completely taken over and the Jewish/Christian/other kids have now become the minority as opposed to the other way around.

And thus, integration ceases and you get this sort of thing happening.

[FlyingJesus]

"Normal British school" because all non-Muslim schools are the exact same and are closely bonded with love and peace and Great British righteousness. And if it does continue then more people will get punished for it because it's still illegal. Just about every crime happens at a greater rate of occurrence than this, including isolation happening the other way with non-Christians being set back by their educators, but of course that's fine and dandy while anything other than FOR KING AND COUNTRY is 3rd world scum.

[The Don]

Did I say that?

"This is why integration should be FORCED" kinda implies that son.


Unbelievable. You call me a waycist for pointing out that this is third world, 15th century behaviour.

Read what you wrote, you never said this behaviour is third world behaviour, you said "Bring in large numbers of people with third world behaviour and 15th century views and what do you get?" which implies majority of muslims migrating to Britain behave in a third world manner.


You want me to be nice to hardline Islamists who would like to see my country transformed? When hell freezes over my friend. Again, classic rhetoric and nothing more, which part of my post asked you to be 'be nice' to those extremists?


Many muslims in western countries, especially where they aren't integrated, agree with these kinds of views as various studies on social attitudes have shown. This is because of a) the sheer numbers coming in & b) lack of integration.

Could you provide links to these 'studies'? I could make claim 'Many UKIP followers have links to extremist, racist organisations which various studies have shown' would you then take my word for that without seeing these studies? No, you wouldn't. Anyone can claim whatever they want, how about you show me the evidence for these claims.


Because you seem to have a lot to say but little on the solutions to stop this happening. The same for the state.

The state is investigating those schools and will punish those held responsible. That seems like a good response.

[-:Undertaker:-]

"Normal British school" because all non-Muslim schools are the exact same and are closely bonded with love and peace and Great British righteousness.

Yeah, a normal British school. You know, the kind of place whereby they all speak the English language, most are native or at least born here. If I took you to a school in India where all the pupils in the class were Chinese and born overseas and who mainly spoke Chinese/Vietnamese - would you call that a 'normal Indian school'? No, you would not - because it wouldn't be.

Why is there this strange feeling among some Britons that their culture doesn't exist/isn't worth protecting? Self-loathing.


And if it does continue then more people will get punished for it because it's still illegal. Just about every crime happens at a greater rate of occurrence than this, including isolation happening the other way with non-Christians being set back by their educators, but of course that's fine and dandy while anything other than FOR KING AND COUNTRY is 3rd world scum.

Yeah, you believe that. The fact that this has gone on in twenty-five schools (and we only know about this because it's been leaked) goes to show to me that there's been a massive cover up involving a lot of people who either agree with this sort of thing OR are too afraid to say anything that appears to go against the 'Religion of Peace'. Can you blame them though? We've seen what happens when people speak out against or question one particular religion.

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"This is why integration should be FORCED" kinda implies that son.

No it doesn't.

I have made it very clear in the past that integration can only take place provided that immigration from different groups is vastly limited to the low 10,000's. That way, you do not get cultural ghettos springing up where by large numbers of people have no need to interact with the native population. Secondly, the state does not cater for recently arrived immigrants. How? Simple - all forms are provided in English and no other language, all school lessons are taught in English and English only - NO translators are provided at all, and NO forms will be printed in anything other than English. You want a translator? You pay for it.

In such a scenario, the newly arrived have no option but to integrate as they'd find life very difficult if they did not.


Read what you wrote, you never said this behaviour is third world behaviour, you said "Bring in large numbers of people with third world behaviour and 15th century views and what do you get?" which implies majority of muslims migrating to Britain behave in a third world manner.

Who said anything about a majority? I never. Huge numbers of people with extreme views have been brought into Britain though, we know this from the rise of Female Genital Mutiliation, arranged marriages, numbers of young men (into the hundreds) going to fight for al-Qaeda in Syria, mosques that have been caught teaching radical hatred as well as radical preachers gaining a large audience and followers.

The evidence is there. And that's without mentioning all muslims - although the vast majority of muslims are very socially conservative.


Again, classic rhetoric and nothing more, which part of my post asked you to be 'be nice' to those extremists?


You called me racist for saying they're preaching third world behaviour, which they are.

Why should I call it anything else? To appeal to the sensitivities of radical Islamists who hate my culture? No thanks.


Could you provide links to these 'studies'? I could make claim 'Many UKIP followers have links to extremist, racist organisations which various studies have shown' would you then take my word for that without seeing these studies? No, you wouldn't. Anyone can claim whatever they want, how about you show me the evidence for these claims.

I have done time and time again, yet it still didn't stop you lot telling me how Islam had just the same problems as other religions. But here..

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm


Civitas: 1 in 3 Muslims in the UK strongly agree that a wife should be forced to obey her husband's bidding
http://www.imaginate.uk.com/MCC01_SURVEY/Site%20Download.pdf
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf


BBC Poll: 1 in 10 British Muslims support killing a family member over "dishonor".
http://www.expressandstar.com/blogs/peter-rhodes/2011/12/28/honour-killing-%E2%80%93-a-stain-on-our-nation/


Policy Exchange: 51% of British Muslims believe a woman cannot marry a non-Muslim
Only 51% believe a Muslim woman may marry without a guardian's consent
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf


Policy Exchange: Up to 52% of British Muslims believe a Muslim man is entitled to up to four wives
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf


Policy Exchange: 61% of British Muslims want homosexuality punished
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf


NOP Research: 62% of British Muslims do not believe in the protection of free speech;
Only 3% adopt a "consistently pro-freedom of speech line"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY


ICM Poll: 58% of British Muslims believe insulting Islam should result in criminal prosecution
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Poll%20Nov%2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Nov04.asp
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

I was going to post seperate links, but that page seems to list various polls (including British muslims attitudes) on various topics, some of which I have posted - although there's tonnes to look through from various social study groups/pollsters. Enjoy.


The state is investigating those schools and will punish those held responsible. That seems like a good response.

lmao okay then.

[FlyingJesus]

Pretty sure British culture is and always has been an amalgamation of everything that we've experienced either as neighbours or invaders. You're absolutely delusional if you think that culture is a constant, and it's not self-loathing to not particularly care about things that I'm told by racists are "good British customs"

[-:Undertaker:-]

Pretty sure British culture is and always has been an amalgamation of everything that we've experienced either as neighbours or invaders. You're absolutely delusional if you think that culture is a constant, and it's not self-loathing to not particularly care about things that I'm told by racists are "good British customs"

That is a repeated lie and you should stop repeating it. We've NEVER had immigration or cultural change on this scale. Ever.

First 3 minutes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDGejzIi8ts

Britain, like Japan, is a insulated nation compared with others on the continent. We are not a 'nation of immigrants'.

[FlyingJesus]

Ok but I never said that. I said we amalgamate customs and cultures from all over, which is absolutely true otherwise we'd still believe that raping someone means you're married, killing someone is fine as long as you give their dad some money, children are just expendable slaves and/or commodities, being inbred makes you a better person, horrific abuses on other people is fine if you have a receipt, and all sorts of other "customs" which we no longer hold true. Of course changes happen quicker as movement of information becomes quicker, but that doesn't make it a bad thing

[The Don]

Providing no options for people to integrate will do nothing but further segregate them. Referring large numbers of muslims migrating to Britain as third worlders with 15th century beliefs is absolutely racist.

In regards to those 'sources' you've provide, i'll respond to you with your own quote (http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=799729&p=8148846#post8148846).


Oh ha ha ha, quoting newspaper polls on the internet in (I presume) left wing rags isn't representative of the Australian public. If you want real opinion polling on the matter, then look at the scientific polls carried out by pollsters which finds a close race but one in which the Monarchy enjoys majority support in Australia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicanism_in_Australia#Public_opinion After all, the Monarchists also won the 1999 referendum.


Funny how you dismiss newspaper polls in one situation and then use them when they suit you. Such a hypocrite it's unreal.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Ok but I never said that. I said we amalgamate customs and cultures from all over, which is absolutely true otherwise we'd still believe that raping someone means you're married, killing someone is fine as long as you give their dad some money, children are just expendable slaves and/or commodities, being inbred makes you a better person, horrific abuses on other people is fine if you have a receipt, and all sorts of other "customs" which we no longer hold true. Of course changes happen quicker as movement of information becomes quicker, but that doesn't make it a bad thing

Yes, and I do not deny that or have a problem with it.

What I have a problem with is the scale of the change and which direction the culture will go in if we continue to allow people with the kinds of views you listed into this country. So to turn around and tell me to get on with it 'becuz its always happened' is not addressing the issue and is indeed confusing the issue. Newly arrived immigrants into this country should integrate with our culture. Period, end of story.

So can we please stop with this lie that British culture is in some way worthless and we should just throw it away 'because times change'. Or that our culture has always been influenced by other cultures to the extent which it has in recent years because it is simply not true.

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Providing no options for people to integrate will do nothing but further segregate them. Referring large numbers of muslims migrating to Britain as third worlders with 15th century beliefs is absolutely racist.

The option is there to integrate - being that to get along you have to integrate. What else would you have us do?


Funny how you dismiss newspaper polls in one situation and then use them when they suit you. Such a hypocrite it's unreal.

The polls I provided are not newspaper polls.

Do I again have to explain polling to you as though we're in primary school? A newspaper/social study group will commission a poll to a polling organisation (like ICM/YouGov/Survation etc) which will then carry the poll out. The poll will then be presented as a 'The Sun/YouGov Poll SAYS' but which is not exclusive to Sun newspaper readers. The polls provided on that page are to my knowledge (and prove me wrong if you can) scientific polls.

Now I ask you to kindly withdraw your charge of calling me a hypocrite and admitting you were wrong because you don't understand polling.

[FlyingJesus]

Yeah who cares what people like we should force them all to sing hymns to St George and wear Union Flags at all times while quaffing beer and complaining about the poofs down the street before shaving their heads and getting into a fight because someone flipped a coin and it didn't land on heads which is disrespectful to the Queen. I'm not sure what you think "British culture" is but it's certainly not jolly gentlemen and proper conduct

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yeah who cares what people like we should force them all to sing hymns to St George and wear Union Flags at all times while quaffing beer and complaining about the poofs down the street before shaving their heads and getting into a fight because someone flipped a coin and it didn't land on heads which is disrespectful to the Queen. I'm not sure what you think "British culture" is but it's certainly not jolly gentlemen and proper conduct

Again, can't engage in proper debate and instead acts as court jester.

That would be like me in discussion on Indian culture making the charge that all Indian culture is is eating curry and throwing paint. Infantile.

[FlyingJesus]

Or like calling all Muslim culture "third world Medieval"

[-:Undertaker:-]

Or like calling all Muslim culture "third world Medieval"

Did I?

But much of the Middle East and northern Africa (where Islam is the dominant force) is medieval compared with the western world, yeah.

I would also apply the same to southern Africa which is mainly Christian.

[The Don]

Yes, and I do not deny that or have a problem with it.

What I have a problem with is the scale of the change and which direction the culture will go in if we continue to allow people with the kinds of views you listed into this country. So to turn around and tell me to get on with it 'becuz its always happened' is not addressing the issue and is indeed confusing the issue. Newly arrived immigrants into this country should integrate with our culture. Period, end of story.

So can we please stop with this lie that British culture is in some way worthless and we should just throw it away 'because times change'. Or that our culture has always been influenced by other cultures to the extent which it has in recent years because it is simply not true.

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The option is there to integrate - being that to get along you have to integrate. What else would you have us do?



The polls I provided are not newspaper polls.

Do I again have to explain polling to you as though we're in primary school? A newspaper/social study group will commission a poll to a polling organisation (like ICM/YouGov/Survation etc) which will then carry the poll out. The poll will then be presented as a 'The Sun/YouGov Poll SAYS' but which is not exclusive to Sun newspaper readers. The polls provided on that page are to my knowledge (and prove me wrong if you can) scientific polls.

Now I ask you to kindly withdraw your charge of calling me a hypocrite and admitting you were wrong because you don't understand polling.

I was indeed wrong about the newspaper poll comparison and calling you a hypocrite, I misread one of the articles. However, half of those 'sources' are dead links and about 5 of them all link to the same pdf. I also can't find the original source that all those articles are quoting so as far as i'm concerned they are not eligible sources.

Anyway, we're going off topic. This incident is not representative of british muslims, and contrary to what you believe, they are not mostly 'third worlders' with '15th century views'.

[FlyingJesus]

Maybe you just need a history lesson then since there have been huge changes in those places since medieval times, just like there has been here - oops, I forgot that I'm not allowed to suggest that culture changes ever

Have you ever been to these places? I have and while it's obviously rather different to Worthing they aren't stoning people in the streets or riding people down for looking a bit poor. I'd be interested to know exactly what you think British culture is anyway, since you never really manage to define it beyond Victorian beliefs.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I was indeed wrong about the newspaper poll comparison and calling you a hypocrite, I misread one of the articles. However, half of those 'sources' are dead links and about 5 of them all link to the same pdf. I also can't find the original source that all those articles are quoting so as far as i'm concerned they are not eligible sources.

Then look at the other polls by ICM and others provided via the link.

And apology accepted.


Anyway, we're going off topic. This incident is not representative of british muslims, and contrary to what you believe, are not mostly 'third worlders' with '15th century views'.

The scientific polling on British muslims social attitudes is representative of British muslims.

Not liking poll results or findings doesn't make them not true.


Maybe you just need a history lesson then since there have been huge changes in those places since medieval times, just like there has been here - oops, I forgot that I'm not allowed to suggest that culture changes ever

Yes, but that's mainly with the introduction of western technology which has often made things even worse than they were. You only have to look at the massacres that still take place in Africa of different tribes, the treatment of women, the rise of powerful strongmen who used to call themselves the King of Chief but who now pose as Presidents. It's still the same medieval mindset.


Have you ever been to these places? I have and while it's obviously rather different to Worthing they aren't stoning people in the streets or riding people down for looking a bit poor. I'd be interested to know exactly what you think British culture is anyway, since you never really manage to define it beyond Victorian beliefs.

Monachy. Christianity (protestantism). Common law. English law. Parliamentary democracy. Conservatism and a healthy distrust in political radicalism. Free trade and invention. British Economics. English language. English poetry. British cuisine. British architecture. British music or 'Brit pop'.

Like any other country really, but with our own twist and our own common and shared beliefs.

[FlyingJesus]

People who are moderates or who don't particularly want to be defined by their religion will not take part in polls about these things, and those who are more successful and busy won't have time to either since they go on for ages and ages with hundreds of irrelevant questions of which 3 get published in order to promote fear of a minority within a minority. Polls are a terrible way to find out what an entire group of people think, especially with such low numbers and especially when they choose their own targets for questioning from a list of people they've already marked as being likely to have certain views.

[The Don]

Then look at the other polls by ICM and others provided via the link.

And apology accepted.



The scientific polling on British muslims social attitudes is representative of British muslims.

Not liking poll results or findings doesn't make them not true.

Here's the polling by icm (http://www.icmresearch.com/pdfs/2009_jun_bbc_muslims_poll.pdf)

http://i.imgur.com/ieQFpoY.jpg

So, going by that data, majority of them do not have '15th century' beliefs. Care to admit you're wrong?

[-:Undertaker:-]

People who are moderates or who don't particularly want to be defined by their religion will not take part in polls about these things, and those who are more successful and busy won't have time to either since they go on for ages and ages with hundreds of irrelevant questions of which 3 get published in order to promote fear of a minority within a minority. Polls are a terrible way to find out what an entire group of people think, especially with such low numbers and especially when they choose their own targets for questioning from a list of people they've already marked as being likely to have certain views.

That is again, what people who don't like poll findings say.

Read on how polling is really done before you make the same charge that members of political parties say when they do not like or approve of certain poll results. Scientific polling is incredibly accurate and includes weightings to take account of the demographic.

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Here's the polling by icm (http://www.icmresearch.com/pdfs/2009_jun_bbc_muslims_poll.pdf)

http://i.imgur.com/ieQFpoY.jpg

So, going by that data, majority of them do not have '15th century' beliefs. Care to admit you're wrong?

I didn't say the majority of them [British muslims] in Britain had 15th century beliefs.

I did however post polling, which you have posted too, stating how large numbers of them have rather extreme or worrying views. If you look a the poll table you posted, you are simply repeating statistics which I have already posted - many of which worry me.

[The Don]

That is again, what people who don't like poll findings say.

Read on how polling is really done before you make the same charge that members of political parties say when they do not like or approve of certain poll results. Scientific polling is incredibly accurate and includes weightings to take account of the demographic.

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I didn't say the majority of them in Britain had 15th century beliefs.

I did however post polling, which you have posted too, stating how large numbers of them have rather extreme or worrying views.

As you can see though, the overwhelming large majority do not have extreme views. Unless you were referencing a different ICM study? If so, could you please link it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

As you can see though, the overwhelming large majority do not have extreme views. Unless you were referencing a different ICM study? If so, could you please link it.

By those polling results you posted, the following is true -

75% have loyalty to Britain, 12% disagree.

61% agree that English should be spoken in public, 28% disagree.

18% agree that Muslims should speak English at home, 65% disagree.

88% agree that women should dress how they wish, 8% disagree.

95% agree with the right of women to go out and work, 4% disagree.

82% agree with the right of a woman to divorce, 12% disagree.

29% agree with the right of gay people to have relationships, 56% disagree.

66% approve of the state fighting against al-Qaeda, 16% disagree.

80% would inform the Police of a suspected terrorist, 9% would not.


Now some of those figures are rather good, but others are very worrying. Would you not agree?

[FlyingJesus]

Monachy. Christianity (protestantism). Common law. English law. Parliamentary democracy. Conservatism and a healthy distrust in political radicalism. Free trade and invention. British Economics. English language. English poetry. British cuisine. British architecture. British music or 'Brit pop'.

Like any other country really, but with our own twist and our own common and shared beliefs.

Literally all of these things have undergone huge changes through time, and literally none of them (unless you want enforced Christianity which is indeed very medieval) are under threat by a handful of extremists who have always existed in some form or other as must be the case in any free country


That is again, what people who don't like poll findings say.

Read on how polling is really done before you make the same charge that members of political parties say when they do not like or approve of certain poll results. Scientific polling is incredibly accurate and includes weightings to take account of the demographic.

I admit that I don't like polls - any "study" that claims to make conclusive fact out of asking a tiny number of people a large number of completely closed questions is ridiculous. It's useful as a business tool to discern where a market may or may not lie, but it has no place as a method of attempting to come up with statistical truths about an entire population unless it asks the entire population. If I ask a hundred people if they're willing to take part in a lengthy questionnaire about the state of cycle paths, you can bet that the huge majority of those who are willing to do so will have a personal vested interest in it, and that skews the results right from the start before the questions even begin.

[The Don]

By those polling results you posted, the following is true -

75% have loyalty to Britain, 12% disagree.

61% agree that English should be spoken in public, 28% disagree.

18% agree that Muslims should speak English at home, 65% disagree.

88% agree that women should dress how they wish, 8% disagree.

95% agree with the right of women to go out and work, 4% disagree.

82% agree with the right of a woman to divorce, 12% disagree.

29% agree with the right of gay people to have relationships, 56% disagree.

66% approve of the state fighting against al-Qaeda, 16% disagree.

80% would inform the Police of a suspected terrorist, 9% would not.


Now some of those figures are rather good, but others are very worrying. Would you not agree?

The only one with a large majority agreeing with an extreme opinion is the gay one, which is not surprising considering many people in western society still have a problem with it, homophobia is not a '15th century' opinion and is certainly not limited to muslims. You yourself would be one of those which answered no for this question too, since you were opposed to gay marriage being legalised when it came up in this forum a while back, pretty amusing that you share the only extreme belief with a majority on that poll. Which other ones have a 'large number' of people agreeing with it, which entitles you to class them as having 15th century beliefs? (that is ignoring the fact that you can't take polls as 100% for the reasons mentioned previously by tom)

[FlyingJesus]

And of course those "results" do not ever add up to 100%, meaning large numbers of respondents are being completely ignored because they aren't giving an answer that the poll wants to hear, coupled with the way people come up with conclusions such as having a 1-5 scale for a question like "do you think women should have the right to divorce her husband" and anyone not voting with "strongly agree" will be marked as an opponent

[-:Undertaker:-]

Literally all of these things have undergone huge changes through time, and literally none of them (unless you want enforced Christianity which is indeed very medieval) are under threat by a handful of extremists who have always existed in some form or other as must be the case in any free country

They have. But over a timescale of hundreds of years by British people. Not via millions of immigrants from overseas.


I admit that I don't like polls - any "study" that claims to make conclusive fact out of asking a tiny number of people a large number of completely closed questions is ridiculous. It's useful as a business tool to discern where a market may or may not lie, but it has no place as a method of attempting to come up with statistical truths about an entire population unless it asks the entire population. If I ask a hundred people if they're willing to take part in a lengthy questionnaire about the state of cycle paths, you can bet that the huge majority of those who are willing to do so will have a personal vested interest in it, and that skews the results right from the start before the questions even begin.

That's just wrong, polls do have a use and can measure the average opinion of a group of people. If polls had no use of all, then political parties would not commission secret opinion polls in target seat areas nor would they bother to study the demographic of the area - the data of which they add together to target certain groups of voters. The same for newspapers commissioning polls, thinktanks, companies and millionaire donors.


The only one with a large majority agreeing with an extreme opinion is the gay one, which is not surprising considering many people in western society still have a problem with it, homophobia is not a '15th century' opinion and is certainly not limited to muslims. You yourself would be one of those which answered no for this question too, since you were opposed to gay marriage being legalised when it came up in this forum a while back, pretty amusing that you share the only extreme belief with a majority on that poll. Which other ones have a 'large number' of people agreeing with it, which entitles you to class them as having 15th century beliefs? (that is ignoring the fact that you can't take polls as 100% for the reasons mentioned previously by tom)

The fact that 61% (leaving out a huge 39%) believe that English should be spoken in public.

The fact that nearly 10% disagree that women should be allowed to wear what they wish. That's 1 in 10.

The fact that 56% disagree with the right of gay people simply to have a relationship.

The fact that 66% agree with the state fighting al-Qaeda, leaving out a huge 34%.

The fact that nearly 10% wouldn't inform the Police of a suspected Islamic terrorist. That's 1 in 10.


Clearly there are problems there. Big problems. You do moderate muslims no favours either by pretending there are no problems.

There is also the question of how truthful people are being to the pollsters as people sometimes tend to shy away from radical answers when it comes to questions. But that's simply me guessing.......


In the early 80's I arrested a Muslim Cleric for stealing
from and intimidating his non Muslim tenants. Over the course of many
interviews he lied and lied. When I finally cornered him and had no choice but
to confess I said that I had studied comparative religions in a former
profession and that it is a sin for a Muslim to lie.

He replied that yes I was correct but a Muslim can tell as many lies as he
wishes to defeat an infidel. He said, 'You are an infidel, a non believer you
are of no account I can say anything I like to you.' It is even sanctioned by
the Taqiyya.

As for the gay marriage thing, again you confuse issues. I have said before actually that I probably have many shared beliefs with Islam in that I tend to be more socially conservative myself - hence why as i've said before, I do not regard gay marriage as anything near to real marriage. But would I deny gay people the right to have relationships? Never, no more than I would use the state to interfere in the bedroom or in the pubs in regards to smoking.

Also, to clarify - i'm not against gay marriage being de facto legalised, I was just against this type of legalisation in 2014 because a) I don't believe in the state having a role in marriage & b) I worry for religious groups/the Churches and the ECHR.


And of course those "results" do not ever add up to 100%, meaning large numbers of respondents are being completely ignored because they aren't giving an answer that the poll wants to hear, coupled with the way people come up with conclusions such as having a 1-5 scale for a question like "do you think women should have the right to divorce her husband" and anyone not voting with "strongly agree" will be marked as an opponent

That is total rubbish. Polls do not dismiss people because they "don't want to hear an answer"

Neutral, Agree and Strongly Agree polls are among the best model for social attitudes surveys.

As for the 100% point, well of course. Polls can be wrong. But polls are more than often right, unless there's a huge fluke in the figures as was the case in the 1992 General Election which predicted a Labour government but resulted in a parliamentary majority for John Major. Since then, weighting in polling has become much more accurate - but yes, there's still debate over weighting techniques (Survation, YouGov and Populus are all currently using different weights to measure Ukip support and we shall only know who has been correct at election time).

[The Don]

Cbb to reply in full because I'm on mobile on the way to my friends house but you're so wrong. The question wasn't whether English should be spoke in public it's whether they speak it. You disagree with the state fighting al Qaeda since you're against intervention, unless you agree with Obama drone striking in Afghanistan. 10% on the women one is not a large majority. You're so deluded and if anyone has bigoted views it's you for calling majority of Muslims third worlders with 15th century beliefs.

[FlyingJesus]

They quite clearly do dismiss the answers they don't want as shown by the fact that they aren't reported, as well as them literally giving double credence to anyone who claims to have a strong belief one way or the other (+1, +2 on the weighting of answers as shown in the graphic). It weeds out moderates as unimportant people whose indifference and overall tolerance doesn't matter, despite realistically (if you really got an answer out of everyone and not just those who have enough time or conviction to say yes to an interview) most people having a sort of "meh" attitude to a lot of these issues, which doesn't infringe on anyone. But of course that's not interesting enough to publish.

[God]

I thought this was segregation in schools but owell. I think religion has no right to be with any gov't or public service, places or anything. Religion should be kept inside their in-doctrine compounds (Churches, sinogogses, and all them other terrible places).

I know in Canada we have French Schools that are near places that have a good population of francophones. Yet Its probs because French is one of our National Languages.

[God]

THE MUSILIMS ARE TAKNG OVA!!!!! HIDE YOUR KIDS, HIDE YOUR WIFE, AND YOUR HUSBAND TOO. THEY COMMING TO GET YOU!lOL


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmqrFK4-OfQ

[iBlueBox]

Never had any of this nonsense in my catholic school.

[God]

Never had any of this nonsense in my catholic school.


Yep just the casual indoctrination. No biggy.

[FlyingJesus]

Dragga I have a feeling you know as little about how Catholic schools work as you do about everything else

[iBlueBox]

Yep just the casual indoctrination. No biggy.

Not really, no one forced me to go a catholic high school. It was my choice.

[Kardan]

Never had any of this nonsense in my catholic school.

I imagine it would be pretty difficult to separate the muslims and non-muslims if you didn't have any in the first place.