Working classes are abandoning Labour for Ukip, top Labour guru warns

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2614762/Labour-middle-class-Ed-Milibands-policy-guru-says-partys-working-class-support-DIED-boost-Ukip.html

Labour is too middle class: Ed Miliband's policy guru says party's working class support has DIED in boost to Ukip

- Lord Glasman warns Ukip is now eating into Labour's heartlands
- Working class support has been in free fall since 2001, he says
- Poll puts Ukip in the lead ahead of European Parliament elections


http://efp.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/lordglasman.jpg
Labour's Lord Glasman issues the warning to Ed Miliband ahead of the European and Local Elections this May.


Labour risks losing support to Ukip because it has become too ‘middle class’, Ed Miliband’s policy guru has warned.

Lord Glasman, a policy adviser ennobled by the Labour leader, warned the support of the working classes had ‘died’ in 2010 and the rise of Nigel Farage's party was eating into his party’s ‘heartlands’.

The blunt message to Mr Miliband came as a poll showed Ukip is on course to win the European elections on May 22, which Mr Farage has claimed will trigger a ‘political earthquake’ in Britain.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/28/article-0-079E047600000514-485_306x423.jpghttp://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/28/article-0-1D1FB91100000578-412_306x423.jpg
Labour leader Ed Miliband is warned his party's support amongst the working classes is being eaten away by Ukip leader Nigel Farage (right)


For several years the rise of Ukip was thought to have come at the expense of the Tories, with Eurosceptic traditionalists wooed by Mr Farage’s blunt-speaking.

But in recent months attempts to eat into the Conservative vote has stalled, with the biggest gains made in Labour's working class heartlands in the north of England.

Recent studies show Ukip supporters earn the least of all the major parties, and are more likely to be working class.

Lord Glasman said voters' concerns about immigration and welfare needed to be addressed to stop them abandoning Labour permanently.

‘That is the dilemma at the heart of the party's strategy - is it possible to address these economic, political and cultural concerns when the party is becoming in many ways very middle class?’ he told The Times.

‘What I mean by that is liberal and progressive in its sensibility. Ed (Miliband) is trying to address it.

'This is a long-term trend since 2001, in terms of the working class vote just declining quite dramatically.

‘The Labour middle class vote held up (in 2010). It was the working class vote that died. These are often people who are earning, who have jobs, but they don't see Labour as representing their interests.’

The comments emerged after a YouGov poll for the Sunday Times gave Ukip an outright advantage in the European election contest for the first time, with 31 per cent support compared with 28 per cent for Labour, and the Tories languishing in third on 19 per cent.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/28/article-0-1D6A468C00000578-969_634x375.jpg
A Populus survey last month showed how Ukip supporters earn the least of any of the main parties

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/28/article-0-1D6A467600000578-724_634x379.jpg
Ukip has more supporters from the working class C2DE social class groups

He's right. The Labour Party of today is a disgrace to the likes of Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Michael Foot and Barbara Castle. I haven't time for left wing politics at all as i'm not left wing in my views, but I have enormous respect for that kind of Labour Party that died away in the late 1960s in that at least it was patriotic and to the most extent was genuine. The Labour Party of today is about as far removed from the original Labour movement of the 1900s as you could possibly get.

An interesting book i'm halfway through at the moment that was just released is called 'Revolt on the Right' by academics Matthew Goodwin of Nottingham University and Rob Ford of Manchester University - it looks at this issue and how much of a threat the purples pose to the reds, especially in northern deprived areas. Key reading for those interested in the upcoming elections and the dynamics at play along with the potentials.

As somebody who lives in one of the strongest Labour seats in the country in an area that is classed as deprived and is surrounded by some of the most deprived areas in Britain, I can confirm what Lord Glasman is saying in terms of lifelong Labour voters abandoning the Labour Party and moving to Ukip. A friend's Grandad has voted Labour all his life: he's now voting Ukip as is his wife who was a lifelong Conservative voter.

Thoughts?

[RyRy]

"Don't vote UKIP they're racists!"

"Labour advisor admits UKIP are taking Labour voters"

Does this mean Labour voters are becoming racist too? :o

I don't believe in the whole class thing personally, it's simply a case of Labour being uninspiring and not provoking any debate, still too hung up on losing the last GE to Conservatives. :S

[FlyingJesus]

Do UKIP even agree with letting peasants vote

[Kardan]

So all the conservatives are going over to UKIP, and now all the people that voted Labour are going to UKIP - at this rate, UKIP are going to thrash the general election next year :P

[Kyle]

The notion that UKIP are less middle class than Labour is quite laughable.

[FlyingJesus]

Yeah it's not a class issue at all it's one of people being annoyed that some of their neighbours look a bit foreign (read: CRIMINALS!!!!) and so want to support nationalist extremists. We learn nothing from history apparently

[-:Undertaker:-]

The notion that UKIP are less middle class than Labour is quite laughable.

No it's not, silly comments like that are laughable though.

If you're seriously interested in this topic and dispute it, then read the academic study just published (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Revolt-Right-Explaining-Extremism-Democracy/dp/0415661501/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1398801126&sr=1-1&keywords=revolt+on+the+right) on it. Even Labour MPs have been buying it [the book]. Why do you think Lord Glasman is saying this? For the fun of it? Labour have even set up a special unit to look into Ukip support (http://reigate.ukip.org/newsroom/news/1148-labour-accused-of-running-scared-of-ukip-as-it-sets-up-special-unit-to-try-and-slow-flood-of-voters-to-nigel-farage-s-party).

If you've been following by-election polling over the last year, you'd notice exactly the same. Strong results in strong Labour areas.


Yeah it's not a class issue at all it's one of people being annoyed that some of their neighbours look a bit foreign (read: CRIMINALS!!!!) and so want to support nationalist extremists. We learn nothing from history apparently

Wanting to control our borders like every other country on the planet and restore parliamentary democracy by leaving the EU is extreme nationalist? :S

Congratulations for evoking both Godwin's Law and Waycism: the two sure signs that your opponents have lost the debate.

[FlyingJesus]

No, focusing on "being British" rather than the actual welfare of individuals is.

Nazism isn't the only nationalist extremist regime to get into power in history as you seem to be implying so zero points there, and calling racists racist is not a losing argument

[-:Undertaker:-]

No, focusing on "being British" rather than the actual welfare of individuals is.

And what's wrong with that? Many second, third and even many first generation immigrants absolutely love this country and would die for it. They've integrated well and become a part of us. All we're arguing for is some quality and quantity control over immigration which has now soared out of control over the past 10 years. The vast majority of Britons agree, and as do many Britons who are from second and third generation immigrants (http://www.amjadbashir.co.uk/).

There's nothing wrong with patriotism. I love my country as do millions of other British subjects.


Nazism isn't the only nationalist extremist regime to get into power in history as you seem to be implying so zero points there

So any other party which dares challenge the three main established parties and who happen to also advocate controlled immigration like Australia and want to leave the EU (like Switzerland and Norway) are nationalist extremists who seek to install Farage as Furher?

Do you realise how ridiculous you sound?


and calling racists racist is not a losing argument

The party who want to mainly place controls on WHITE immigrants from Europe are racist? :S

[FlyingJesus]

I'm ridiculous because you saw a comment about racist VOTERS and decided to go on the attack about your beloved do-no-wrong party, righto.
Hilariously enough I can literally just repeat my last reply in answer to your question about whether I think UKIP's immigration policy is what makes them (and apparently everyone else not in the main 3 parties... not sure how you got to that) nationalist extremist:

No, focusing on "being British" rather than the actual welfare of individuals is.

It's really very easy when you just make things up rather than respond to my words.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm ridiculous because you saw a comment about racist VOTERS and decided to go on the attack about your beloved do-no-wrong party, righto.

It's a thread about Ukip and Labour, unless you mean the Labour Party? :rolleyes:


Hilariously enough I can literally just repeat my last reply in answer to your question about whether I think UKIP's immigration policy is what makes them (and apparently everyone else not in the main 3 parties... not sure how you got to that) nationalist extremist:

No, focusing on "being British" rather than the actual welfare of individuals is.

But again, how is the immigration party nationalist or extremist?

You are full of soundbytes and insults, like the three rotten establishment parties, but you don't actually DEBATE anything - all you do is throw insults at the vast majority of Britons who want to see some form of immigration controls put back on movement from Europe to the UK.

It's not nationalist, extremist or racist to want immigration controlled and for immigrants to integrate. It's common sense the world over.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3QzfrnsQkE

From 3:40

[FlyingJesus]

That's wonderful but as I've literally just said, that isn't what I was on about. You just replied to "no, immigration policies aren't what makes them nationalist extremists, their obsession with Britishness is" with "HOW IS IMMIGRATION POLICY NATIONALIST". If I'm full of soundbytes and insults it's certainly better than what you're full of

[-:Undertaker:-]

That's wonderful but as I've literally just said, that isn't what I was on about. You just replied to "no, immigration policies aren't what makes them nationalist extremists, their obsession with Britishness is" with "HOW IS IMMIGRATION POLICY NATIONALIST". If I'm full of soundbytes and insults it's certainly better than what you're full of

What's this 'obsession' with Britishness? You mean the notion that immigrants who come here should integrate and become a part of us?

THAT'S SO WAYCIST/NATIONALIST/XENOPHOBIC/WHATEVER OTHER INSULT YOU CAN THINK OF.... not. :rolleyes:

[FlyingJesus]

"Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation."

Yes

Furthermore
 
na·tion·al·ism
[nash-uh-nl-iz-uhm, nash-nuh-liz-]
noun
1.spirit or aspirations common to the whole of a nation.
2.devotion and loyalty to one's own country; patriotism.
3.excessive patriotism; chauvinism.
4.the desire for national advancement or political independence.
5.the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.

[-:Undertaker:-]

"Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation."

Yes

No.


"Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality." - George Orwell, Notes on Nationalism

I'm a patriot thank you very much, as are Ukip.

And proud of it and proud of this country. Why on earth shouldn't we be?

[FlyingJesus]

lol seeing you quoting a staunch democratic socialist as your argument amuses me, nonetheless:
"By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people"
Clearly that definition (and as he says, definitions are liable to be challenged) doesn't fit for UKIP's/your beliefs since you do wish to force it on others despite claiming to be a libertarian who wouldn't do such a thing but whatev.

[Inseriousity.]

I'd say it was a class issue. That sort of 'these foreigners taking our jobs' rhetoric (even in areas like the north east where it's like 96% white british) is prevalent in working class circles and judging by their recent poster campaign I'd say UKIP know that. Of course these are the same people that 'never vote, no point is there' so whether that'll result in success at the election will depend. I don't know a single person who votes in the EU elections anyway.

[-:Undertaker:-]

lol seeing you quoting a staunch democratic socialist as your argument amuses me

Did I not just open this thread by expressing my respect and admiration for democratic socialists like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Michael Foot and Barbara Castle? I've also expressed admiration for traditional left-wingers like Tony Benn and Kate Hoey in the past.

So why does that 'amuse' you when it shouldn't come as a shock at all.

http://www.csdixon.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/wake-up.jpg


nonetheless:
"By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people"
Clearly that definition (and as he says, definitions are liable to be challenged) doesn't fit for UKIP's/your beliefs since you do wish to force it on others despite claiming to be a libertarian who wouldn't do such a thing but whatev.

Are immigrants forced to come to this country? No, they are not. They come here voluntarily. If I invite you into my house, I expect you - and you would expect me to - want you to abide by my rules and my customs in my house. If people come to this country, then I expect them to abide by our rules and our customs. If Britain was kidnapping foreigners and bringing them in and THEN expecting them to conform to British values, then you might have a point. But as it happens, Britain isn't doing that and you don't have a point.

So again, an abject failure by yourself to even understand the quote.


I'd say it was a class issue. That sort of 'these foreigners taking our jobs' rhetoric (even in areas like the north east where it's like 96% white british) is prevalent in working class circles and judging by their recent poster campaign I'd say UKIP know that. Of course these are the same people that 'never vote, no point is there' so whether that'll result in success at the election will depend. I don't know a single person who votes in the EU elections anyway.

But those concerns aren't to be sneered at. Mass immigration does hit the poorest and deprived areas hard.

That's why Jack Straw, David Blunkett, Jacqui Smith and other Labour figures are all now apologising for mass migration between '97 and '10.

[Inseriousity.]

Naturally but as I already pointed out, the North East of England is not as affected by mass immigration as other parts of the country where those fears would at least have some valid basis. Instead it feels more like jumping on a bandwagon. The North East of England's economic decline is more to do with the London-centric governments and the lack of any real challenge or threat for the Labour party, which just results in complacency. I disagree with UKIP on a lot of things but if it's true that they are aiming (and be successful) at gaining more votes in the North and that causes the parties to raise their game then I'm all for it.

[FlyingJesus]

So forcing people to live a certain way is ok in your faux-libertarian brain as long as it's done in a certain place... I've not misunderstood anything (unlike yourself attacking points that hadn't even been made for a good while), it's a simple concept whereby forcing someone to do what you want them to do for the sake of Britishness despite their actions harming nobody and being perfectly legal is nationalism. Your house is your property, the country you live in is not

[-:Undertaker:-]

So forcing people to live a certain way is ok in your faux-libertarian brain as long as it's done in a certain place... I've not misunderstood anything (unlike yourself attacking points that hadn't even been made for a good while), it's a simple concept whereby forcing someone to do what you want them to do for the sake of Britishness despite their actions harming nobody and being perfectly legal is nationalism.

I haven't proposed any domestic laws which would force anybody to become British at all. I simply favour, as Ukip do, controlling immigration so that only those with the skills we need (ie English language) and the correct quantities of people come in. Simply with a numbers-only game and by limiting immigration do you automatically create the environment for integration to occur because those arriving to these islands then have no other choice but to get to know their British neighbours and to learn to get along. Contrast that with the current immigration policy and trend which has unlimited numbers of people coming in, many without any skills, who then congregate together in multicultural ghettos and live totally seperate lives to the rest of their country. Added on to that, the state has even started catering to them by printing forms in dozens of languages.

Being British shouldn't and isn't just holding a British passport. It is and should be more than that.


Your house is your property, the country you live in is not

Yes it is. It's my country, my homeland and where my people live.

[FlyingJesus]

You believe that England is your property?

[Kardan]

Maybe he's playing Monopoly: World Edition

[FlyingJesus]

Don't be a FOOL you buy cities on that not countries

[Kardan]

My bad.

Maybe he was playing this one instead...

https://www.boardgameworld.com/FrEurope1.jpg

[FlyingJesus]

Templates are fun

http://i.imgur.com/ctPmI9p.png

[Inseriousity.]

i always pass go and land on that income tax so I approve this board already.