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FlyingJesus
16-05-2014, 02:41 PM
Skip the first couple of minutes because it's just radio ads idk why it does that but yeah Farage sits down with some chap on LBC to discuss the issue of racism... and then changes the subject at every turn. Some of my favourite bits are him not knowing who his own councillors are, claiming that bilingual children are ruining the country (which would include his own daughters), and being chums with Anders Breivik fans.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pyYoL9ngtE

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The Don
16-05-2014, 03:03 PM
Great to watch Farage stutter and backtrack for once since he is usually the more dominant one in his debates. Brilliant that he pointed out that Farage's own children are bilingual and would fall into the same category that he's labelling all those east end children in.

FlyingJesus
16-05-2014, 03:36 PM
Farage didn't seem to even be aware that the statistic wasn't what he'd claimed it was tbh

The Don
16-05-2014, 03:43 PM
Farage didn't seem to even be aware that the statistic wasn't what he'd claimed it was tbh

Here's another James O'Brien snippet where he destroys a UKIP member.

https://audioboo.fm/boos/1938900-james-o-brien-took-on-ukip-member-and-dismantled-his-argument-in-two-minutes?

-:Undertaker:-
16-05-2014, 03:55 PM
Farage didn't do well because he wasn't aggressive enough to this interviewer. Personally had that been me, I would simply repeat the crimes of Labour and Conservatives politicians when everytime I was asked about what somebody in Ukip had said or done.

The interviewer could have done his job and asked some real hard hitting questions that I would like to see Farage challenged on, ie What timescale would a Ukip Government give for the process of renegotiation, what qualifications and what skills would a Ukip border policy require, how many in terms of overall incoming immigration figures would a Ukip Government allow in, how would Ukip go about restoring the grammar school system in the south when taking into account the lack of land and that former grammars had been merged into large comprehensives, how would a Ukip Government work within a NATO framework if it opposes interventionalist wars in the Middle East..... and so on and so forth. Had he asked questions like this, and interrogated Farage on them, then there's a chance Farage could be exposed as being very thin on detail.

But instead, all we got was the usual 'CANDIDATE X IN UKIP HAS SAID Y, DO YOU AGREE WITH Y? ARE YOU ALL WAYCIST?' or... 'UKIP MEPS CLAIM ALLOWANCES EXPENSES, DOESNT THIS MAKE YOU LIKE THE LIBLABCON DESPITE THE TWO BEING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT?'. I don't know about everyone else, but I find it very boring - I haven't yet heard an interview conducted during this campaign with Farage or any member of Ukip which actually discussed EU membership which is what the European Elections are supposed to be about.

O'Brian is a terrible interview conductor and the comments on LBC speak for themselves: http://www.lbc.co.uk/watch-nigel-farage-v-james-obrien-live-from-1130-90532


Strewth, I thought you were going to interview Nigel, didn't realise the voice we were actually going to hear was yours, what an absolutely appalling interview, you are so naive James hence Nick and Ian enjoy the lions share of interviews.

You keep saying you don't understand James, your right, you don't, listening to you is a sad and freighting thing, sad because you are aggressively naive and freighting because you think your right to treat a party leader who voices the fears many people have with such distain, immigration is THE topic James and you simply dismiss any individual who disagrees with your school boy idealistic view.

Until this point, you cast your views as idealistic and a bit 'university' as a way of diluting what you really think. the look in your eye whilst interviewing Nigel speaks volumes....you represent a typical armchair politician, completely rigid in view and unable to even engage with any alternative, your inflexibility is the reason were in political lockdown, at heart James, your a communist, just admit it on air so we can all relax knowing who you really are....at least we could respect you..!!


Go on James let's stay with the parties that has destroyed our pensions,wrecked our nation,taken us into wars. Yet Nigel has said we need to take back our borders.
You have made me want to join ukip. James you have shown us how arrogant you are


Will James O'Brien hold the same character assassination debates with Ed Miliband and David Cameron? Don't hold your breath folks!

The media can keep calling us racist for a few bonkers members, but if I am racist for wanting control of our borders back from the European Union to stop huge areas of our country becoming literally foreign where no English is spoken then I am guilty as charged.


Farage didn't seem to even be aware that the statistic wasn't what he'd claimed it was tbh

So you often go into areas around this country and hear only French or German being spoken amongst the population, do you?

The Don
16-05-2014, 04:06 PM
People aren't calling ukip racist for wanting to control borders, they're calling them racist for making certain minorities the centre of a hate campaign and stigmatising large groups of people.


So you often go into areas around this country and hear only French or German being spoken amongst the population, do you?

Why does it matter that people are bilingual and speak other languages besides English in public? Weren't you criticising Ukraine for removing other languages besides Ukrainian from their official languages?

-:Undertaker:-
16-05-2014, 04:12 PM
People aren't calling ukip racist for wanting to control borders, they're calling them racist for making certain minorities the centre of a hate campaign and are stigmatising large groups of people.

AGAIN with the slurs.

What minorities have they targeted? They've said they want to control our borders with the EU which includes Germans, French, Spanish, Portugeese, Greeks, Romanians, Lithuanians, Italians, Dutch, Danish, Belgians, Swedes and COUNTLESS other European nations.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUIdYj2_s9g

I am SICK of people like you trying to shut down the debate on immigration by claiming that wanting controlled borders = racism. Go and do one.


Why does it matter that people are bilingual and speak other languages besides English in public?

Because if you live in an area where nobody speaks your own language, you'll feel very isolated. Lanaguage is the foundation of a nation.

If people like you arrogantly continue to ignore legit concerns such as this and dismiss them as small minded when they're actually very important for community relations and integration, then you are storing up huge tensions that will spill over on the streets. Be warned.


Weren't you criticising Ukraine for removing other languages besides Ukrainian from their official languages?

I have said all along that as a multicultural country, Ukraine needs to seperate.

If the central Ukranian autorities want the Russian part to remain, then they'll have to allow Russian. But that is upto Kiev.

FlyingJesus
16-05-2014, 04:16 PM
Farage didn't do well because he wasn't aggressive enough to this interviewer. Personally had that been me, I would simply repeat the crimes of Labour and Conservatives politicians when everytime I was asked about what somebody in Ukip had said or done.

That is all Farage did - avoid the questions


The interviewer could have done his job and asked some real hard hitting questions that I would like to see Farage challenged on, ie What timescale would a Ukip Government give for the process of renegotiation, what qualifications and what skills would a Ukip border policy require, how many in terms of overall incoming immigration figures would a Ukip Government allow in, how would Ukip go about restoring the grammar school system in the south when taking into account the lack of land and that former grammars had been merged into large comprehensives, how would a Ukip Government work within a NATO framework if it opposes interventionalist wars in the Middle East..... and so on and so forth. Had he asked questions like this, and interrogated Farage on them, then there's a chance Farage could be exposed as being very thin on detail.

He could have done, yes, but he quite clearly states that the interview is in response to racism claims and that's what the interview was about


O'Brian is a terrible interview conductor and the comments on LBC speak for themselves: http://www.lbc.co.uk/watch-nigel-farage-v-james-obrien-live-from-1130-90532

What a shock, UKIP supporters and illiterates support GIVE BACK OUR BORDERS!!!! nonsense even when Farage himself can't talk about it properly when asked


So you often go into areas around this country and hear only French or German being spoken amongst the population, do you?

No and I didn't say anything of the sort; what you've quoted me saying is that Farage didn't seem to realise that "English as a second language" is not the same as "don't speak English" as was his claim

-:Undertaker:-
16-05-2014, 04:22 PM
That is all Farage did - avoid the questions

Because there's only so many times you can be asked 'ARE YOU ALL RACISTS' and reply no without it getting boring. Basically, O'Brian kept reading out silly comments made by some Ukip members.... what else did he want Farage to say other than they would be suspended/have been suspended and that the party rejects those comments? This racism ******** has been done to death.


He could have done, yes, but he quite clearly states that the interview is in response to racism claims and that's what the interview was about

Exactly, so why are the other three party leaders not being given the same ride by racist assaults/comments made by THEIR candidates/councillors?


What a shock, UKIP supporters and illiterates support GIVE BACK OUR BORDERS!!!! nonsense even when Farage himself can't talk about it properly when asked

Oooh so you think we're small minded and stupid for wanting to control Britain's borders like any other country does?

I really hope you and the media keep this arrogant attitude up. You're totally out of touch with the majority.


No and I didn't say anything of the sort; what you've quoted me saying is that Farage didn't seem to realise that "English as a second language" is not the same as "don't speak English" as was his claim

But you've said in the past have you not that you think it's absolutely fine that areas of this country don't speak English?

So our positions are clear: you think thats fine (because you don't live among it) and I think that's a bad thing for integration.

As for Farage's claim, it wouldn't surprise me if he is correct. At the very best, you'll probably only get broken English in these ghettos.

FlyingJesus
16-05-2014, 04:23 PM
That was by far the best live radio interview!! James just made my weekend brighter. We now know more than we did know about Farage and his dealing with far right European clubs. Well done James


Well done James. Just wish more political interviews were likewise as thorough and unforgiving as this. Political leaders are far too often treated with kid gloves and reverence, and this certainly made a refreshing change! :)


He asked questions. Farage answered them. Farage came off badly because his views are stupid.


The best bits are when Farage talks; he contradicts, mis-represents, splutters and fails. Laughed my a*s off.


thanks to J.O.B for this proper scrutiny,he goes round talking about foreigners but is married to one,he has a zimbawean calling Ed Milliband an illegal immigrant in our country,only lazy brits who want to find excuses for failure follow this nonsense


Wooooooo I can scour responses for top comments too

-:Undertaker:-
16-05-2014, 04:25 PM
Wooooooo I can scour responses for top comments too

Those aren't top rated comments, you have to go quite a bit down to find them. You lie.

The Don
16-05-2014, 04:27 PM
AGAIN with the slurs.

What part of my post was incorrect?


What minorities have they targeted? They've said they want to control our borders with the EU which includes Germans, French, Spanish, Portugeese, Greeks, Romanians, Lithuanians, Italians, Dutch, Danish, Belgians, Swedes and COUNTLESS other European nations.

http://politicalscrapbook.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ukip-bulgaria-romania-leaflet.jpg


I am SICK of people like you trying to shut down the debate on immigration by claiming that wanting controlled borders = racism. Go and do one.

And that's not what i've said if you would care to read my post properly without getting angry and resorting to playing a helpless victim. Wanting to control borders is not racist, the campaign and the way Ukip is demonising particular minorities is racist.


Because if you live in an area where nobody speaks your own language, you'll feel very isolated. Lanaguage is the foundation of a nation.

There's a difference between being Bilingual and not being able to speak English.


If people like you arrogantly continue to ignore legit concerns such as this and dismiss them as small minded when they're actually very important for community relations and integration, then you are storing up huge tensions that will spill over on the streets. Be warned.

The only arrogant one here is you telling people to "go do one" because you don't like receiving due criticism.

FlyingJesus
16-05-2014, 04:27 PM
Because there's only so many times you can be asked 'ARE YOU ALL RACISTS' and reply no without it getting boring. Basically, O'Brian kept reading out silly comments made by some Ukip members.... what else did he want Farage to say other than they would be suspended/have been suspended and that the party rejects those comments? This racism ******** has been done to death.

That was what the interview was about, that's what Farage accepted to go on air about. Nonetheless, quite a lot of other questions arose if you listen to the interview


Exactly, so why are the other three party leaders not being given the same ride by racist assaults/comments made by THEIR candidates/councillors?

He did say in the interview that he was going to grill them too. Nul points.


Oooh so you think we're small minded and stupid for wanting to control Britain's borders like any other country does?

I really hope you and the media keep this arrogant attitude up. You're totally out of touch with the majority.

Nope but well done on making up phrases for me, that's a good debate tactic. However if the majority of people are racists who can't read immigration figures properly I'm glad to not be a part of them


But you've said in the past have you not that you think it's absolutely fine that areas of this country don't speak English?

So our positions are clear: you think thats fine (because you don't live among it) and I think that's a bad thing for integration.

As for Farage's claim, it wouldn't surprise me if he is correct. At the very best, you'll probably only get broken English in these ghettos.

Ahhhh yes, make up my mind for me (about which you are wrong) and then go on to claim that DEM FORINUZ can't possibly speak true English as opposed to the wonderful uses of it that we see all around by pure-bred white Brits. You are literally making claims out of your arse


Those aren't top rated comments, you have to go quite a bit down to find them. You lie.

That's funny I thought top rated comments were the ones with lots of likes, not just the ones that had last been posted

-:Undertaker:-
16-05-2014, 04:31 PM
What part of my post was incorrect?

http://politicalscrapbook.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ukip-bulgaria-romania-leaflet.jpg

That is a factual statement, 29m Romanians and Bulgarians now have the same right to come to Britain as you or I.

So what's your problem with it? It's targeting a minority (of 29m!) to point out the facts?


And that's not what i've said if you would care to read my post properly without getting angry and resorting to playing a helpless victim. Wanting to control borders is not racist, the campaign and the way Ukip is demonising particular minorities is racist.

What race is the campaign targeting?


There's a difference between being Bilingual and not being able to speak English.

And there's a difference between huge areas only speaking their native languages to one another and two English girls who can speak German.


The only arrogant one here is you telling people to "go do one" because you don't like receiving due criticism.

Because I have had enough of the racism jibe.

If I am racist for wanting to end open border immigration from the EU then I stand as guilty as charged.

- - - Updated - - -


That was what the interview was about, that's what Farage accepted to go on air about. Nonetheless, quite a lot of other questions arose if you listen to the interview

In which part is that stated?


He did say in the interview that he was going to grill them too. Nul points.

HAHAHA oh yeah. Rightttttt. Well considering this has been going on for over a year now, we're still to see them subjected to this questioning.


Nope but well done on making up phrases for me, that's a good debate tactic. However if the majority of people are racists who can't read immigration figures properly I'm glad to not be a part of them

You mean like the extra 29,000 Romanians and Bulgarians who have arrived in the last year and the fact that Net migration is UP?

Those ONS statistics?


Ahhhh yes, make up my mind for me (about which you are wrong) and then go on to claim that DEM FORINUZ can't possibly speak true English as opposed to the wonderful uses of it that we see all around by pure-bred white Brits. You are literally making claims out of your arse

And again you bring race into it when it has nothing to do with race.


http://peruvidan.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/racist-if-youre-losing-the-argument-shout.jpeg

You can't debate things like immigration & integration without giggling like a little baby, i'm done with you on it.


That's funny I thought top rated comments were the ones with lots of likes, not just the ones that had last been posted

Yup, the top rated ones with most likes, and to see the ones you posted you have to scroll down a fair bit to see any anti-Farage comments.

The Don
16-05-2014, 04:44 PM
That is a factual statement, 29m Romanians and Bulgarians now have the same right to come to Britain as you or I.

So what's your problem with it? It's targeting a minority (of 29m!) to point out the facts?

I'm not questioning the validity of the statement on it, I'm pointing out that demonising a minority group and stirring up hate is absolutely racist. It's making them the enemy, they're taking our jobs.


What race is the campaign targeting?

That particular leaflet/campaign is targeting Romanians and Bulgarians.


And there's a difference between huge areas only speaking their native languages to one another and two English girls who can speak German.

How is there a difference if both groups are speaking a different language but are capable of speaking English?


Because I have had enough of the racism jibe.

What else should I call a party that spreads hate and fear about specific minorities?


If I am racist for wanting to end open border immigration from the EU then I stand as guilty as charged.

Ah, putting words into my mouth. I haven't called you racist, unless you are Ukip?

alexxxxx
16-05-2014, 04:48 PM
not been on here for a while (a year or so?). thought i'd see what was being said after I saw this posted on HP.

UKIP have had a pretty good ride with the media, pretty much popping up everywhere. There's probably been more discussion of UKIP than Lib-Dem.

UKIP are under the spotlight because theyre now being seen as a major threat to the traditional 3 parties and probably are under a bit of an unofficial controlled campaign against them. These questions are interesting because Farage has performed very poorly in this interview as being a competent leader.

The reason why the questions about racism are valid is that the opinion polls suggest people do believe that UKIP are racist (rightly or wrongly). People are uncomfortable with racists (and more so when they're in power) and so therefore it is a particularly valid thing to talk about. UKIP are very good at putting out implicit xenephobic messages, but as theyre not explicit they can always backtrack - such as in this interview.

jesus i signed up to this forum getting on 10 years a go - does habbo hotel still even work.

-:Undertaker:-
16-05-2014, 04:50 PM
I'm not questioning the validity of the statement on it, I'm pointing out that demonising a minority group and stirring up hate is absolutely racist.

So how can we discuss the issue if we do not state the facts that freedom of movement HAS been extended to Romania and Bulgaria?

And again, what race does it target? Even if you believe the posters target a group, that does not make it racist lmao.


It's making them the enemy, they're taking our jobs.

The politicians are the enemy for allowing this to happen.


That particular leaflet/campaign is targeting Romanians and Bulgarians.

It's not targeting anybody, it's pointing out that FOM has been extended to both countries - which is a fact.

You are so desperate to shut down the debate and your so desperate to want to believe Ukip are racist that your twisting reality.


How is there a difference if both groups are speaking a different language but are capable of speaking English?


Are huge areas of this country now dominated by people who only speak German and French in public? yes or no.


What else should I call a party that spreads hate and fear about specific minorities?

That is rhetoric straight out of the Hope Not Hate handbook and i'm not having it. Either engage with the facts rather than emotion, or dont.


Ah, putting words into my mouth. I haven't called you racist, unless you are Ukip?

I subscribe to their beliefs that our borders should be controlled and that immigrants should integrate, am I therefore a racist?


The reason why the questions about racism are valid is that the opinion polls suggest people do believe that UKIP are racist (rightly or wrongly). People are uncomfortable with racists (and more so when they're in power) and so therefore it is a particularly valid thing to talk about.

Welcome back.

And the poll you refer to actually only had 20-something % saying they believed Ukip are racist, leaving 80% odd saying they're not.

I could commission a poll asking 'Do the Tories hate the rich?' and get similar numbers in the polling, yet Dave isn't challenged 24/7 on it.

The Don
16-05-2014, 05:06 PM
So how can we discuss the issue if we do not state the facts that freedom of movement HAS been extended to Romania and Bulgaria?

And again, what race does it target? Even if you believe the posters target a group, that does not make it racist lmao.

By targeting the EU as the fault for open borders, not the Romanian or Bulgarian immigrants who have done nothing wrong. Rather than making the EU the enemy, those adverts are making the immigrants the enemy and are spreading fear about them. I think that’s racist and apparently a large portion of the voting population do as well.


The politicians are the enemy for allowing this to happen.

That’s not what those adverts are showing, they’re making the immigrants the enemy.


It's not targeting anybody, it's pointing out that FOM has been extended to both countries - which is a fact.

It’s not targeting anybody yet it explicitly names Romania and Bulgaria? Even the ones that don’t name specific countries are targeting immigrants.

http://www.standard.co.uk/incoming/article9273210.ece/alternates/w620/Ukip-2.jpg

Nice bit of propaganda there, making the immigrants the enemy. They're after my job. You may not call spreading fear and hate about specific minorities racist, but I do.


Are huge areas of this country now dominated by people who only speak German and French in public? yes or no.

Are any huge parts of this country dominated by people that can't speak English?


That is rhetoric straight out of the Hope Not Hate handbook and i'm not having it. Either engage with the facts rather than emotion, or dont.

I have quite clearly backed up why this is true. The Ukip campaigns are making immigrants the enemy and are spreading hate and fear about them. Telling the British public they are coming here to take 'our' jobs is definitely not portraying them in a positive light, or giving them a good reputation to the masses.


I subscribe to their beliefs that our borders should be controlled and that immigrants should integrate, am I therefore a racist?

No, but if you go around putting up huge billboards and posters spreading hate about specific immigrants then you are.

GommeInc
16-05-2014, 05:15 PM
In all fairness none of the other major party leaders know who their councillors are so it's good to see he's somewhat normal in that area.

-:Undertaker:-
16-05-2014, 05:20 PM
By targeting the EU as the fault for open borders, not the Romanian or Bulgarian immigrants who have done nothing wrong. Rather than making the EU the enemy, those adverts are making the immigrants the enemy and are spreading fear about them. I think that’s racist and apparently a large portion of the voting population do as well.

But you have to point out why open borders are bad and why it is such a big deal, and, it's because we're opening our borders up to two very poor Eastern European countries with high crime levels and which are stricken with poverty. There is a difference between French and Bulgarian immigration just as there's a difference between Brazillian and Pakistani - it is not waycist to point this out.

As for your claim concerning a large portion, a large portion maybe but not the majority. Ultimately with any political party half of the populatiom is going to disagree with you one way or another as politics by it's nature is polarising. Here are the polling results regarding the Ukip campaign which you are talking about...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/472197/Majority-of-voters-DON-T-think-Ukip-posters-are-racist


However, a new poll from YouGov reveals most British voters don't share the criticism of the posters.

When asked whether they thought the advertising campaign was "racist", 59 per cent disagreed, compared to 34 per cent who agreed.

Among those who are planning to vote Conservative at the next general election, 69 per cent disagreed that the posters were "racist", compared to 27 per cent who agreed.

Similarly, 53 per cent disagreed with a description of the posters as "offensive and ignorant", compared to 39 per cent who agreed.

By contrast, more than half (57 per cent) of those asked agreed the advertising is "a hard-hitting reflection of reality".

A lot of people, excluding the hand wringers, believe the posters are fine.


That’s not what those adverts are showing, they’re making the immigrants the enemy.

If you are a builder who has had his wages compressed by mass immigration from Eastern Europe over the past decade, then you are going to look at the people coming into the country as the problem as they are the ones who are taking away your trade. That's a natural human reaction. The purpose of Ukip is to funnel those frustrations and concerns - which are legit - at the ballot box targeting the people who are really to blame which are the establishment politicians of the cartel.

If you and others continue to try and constrict this debate, then you are storing up violence.


It’s not targeting anybody yet it explicitly names Romania and Bulgaria? Even the ones that don’t name specific countries are targeting immigrants.

Because Romania and Bulgaria are the two countries which have just opened up their borders, duh. We were having the same discussion a few years back on Polish immigration - was that TARGETING the Polish? No, it was a sensible debate.


Nice bit of propaganda there, making the immigrants the enemy. They're after my job. You may not call spreading fear and hate about specific minorities racist, but I do.

Well then you are going to lose (you've lost the actual debate already) because that bullcrap doesn't work anymore.


Are any huge parts of this country dominated by people that can't speak English?

Huge parts of the country are dominated by areas in which people only speak in public in their native languages, yes.


I have quite clearly backed up why this is true. The Ukip campaigns are making immigrants the enemy and are spreading hate and fear about them. Telling the British public they are coming here to take 'our' jobs is definitely not portraying them in a positive light, or giving them a good reputation to the masses.

But they are coming here to take British jobs.

Ukip are not to blame for pointing that out, your anger should be directed at the politicians who allowed this to happen.


No, but if you go around putting up huge billboards and posters spreading hate about specific immigrants then you are.

HATE WAAAAAA WAYCISM WAAAAAA BIGOTED WAAAAA HOW DARE ANYBODY DISAGREE WITH ME OR DARE VOICE A CONTROVERSIAL OPINION. Boring boring boring boring boring BORING. Empty pansy rhetoric. You are again twisting reality into what you want to see. The majority of Britons disagree with you, as shown by the poll I posted above.

Debate the issue of mass immigration with us properly, or continue to slur and lose public support as you have done.

The Don
16-05-2014, 05:51 PM
Debate the issue of mass immigration with us properly, or continue to slur and lose public support as you have done.

I’m not quite sure which thread you’ve been reading, but in this one we have been discussing whether Ukip is racist or not, not mass immigration.


But you have to point out why open borders are bad and why it is such a big deal, and, it's because we're opening our borders up to two very poor Eastern European countries with high crime levels and which are stricken with poverty. There is a difference between French and Bulgarian immigration just as there's a difference between Brazillian and Pakistani - it is not waycist to point this out.

You don’t have to do anything. If Ukip are happy to choose to use those tactics to secure votes then that speaks more for the morals of those running the campaign than anything else.


As for your claim concerning a large portion, a large portion maybe but not the majority.

Good job I didn’t say majority then!


If you are a builder who has had his wages compressed by mass immigration from Eastern Europe over the past decade, then you are going to look at the people coming into the country as the problem as they are the ones who are taking away your trade. That's a natural human reaction. The purpose of Ukip is to funnel those frustrations and concerns - which are legit - at the ballot box targeting the people who are really to blame which are the establishment politicians of the cartel.

‘Funnel those frustrations’ is a fancy way of saying spread hate. You’ve literally just said it yourself, Ukip is manipulating the public and harnessing their frustrations at immigrants and minorities to receive votes.


Because Romania and Bulgaria are the two countries which have just opened up their borders, duh. We were having the same discussion a few years back on Polish immigration - was that TARGETING the Polish? No, it was a sensible debate.

Are you seriously saying that it isn’t targeting Romania and Bulgaria on a leaflet explicitly naming the two countries as coming to the UK as a problem?


Well then you are going to lose (you've lost the actual debate already) because that bullcrap doesn't work anymore.

Calling it bullcrap doesn’t make it any less true. I’d say you’re losing the debate since you’re resulting to blindly calling things ‘bullcrap’ rather than providing a constructive argument to that point.


Huge parts of the country are dominated by areas in which people only speak in public in their native languages, yes.

[CITATION NEEDED]


But they are coming here to take British jobs.
Are you seriously saying those jobs are ‘our jobs’? Those jobs are there for whomever the employer chooses to hire. They are not explicitly for British people only. I don’t see you blaming those hiring the immigrants though.


HATE WAAAAAA WAYCISM WAAAAAA BIGOTED WAAAAA HOW DARE ANYBODY DISAGREE WITH ME OR DARE VOICE A CONTROVERSIAL OPINION.


Ah, such an eloquent response. Again, where have I called them racist for having a different opinion? What would you call spreading propaganda about immigrants to channel hate into votes?


You are again twisting reality into what you want to see. The majority of Britons disagree with you, as shown by the poll I posted above.

Being in the majority doesn’t make you right, and one little poll is hardly anything to be proud of. Let’s look at the facts about Ukips campaigning rather than what other people think.

Pretty funny watching you lose all composure and resorting to name calling when proven wrong.

FlyingJesus
16-05-2014, 06:05 PM
In which part is that stated?

It's how the entire discussion begins, and it's clearly something that is a problem since one of the prime offenders (the councillor that Farage didn't even know existed apparently) hasn't been dealt with since his offences in February and that another of his top chaps has been employing illegal immigrants. Furthermore Farage stated "I'm perfectly happy for us to have a debate about our idiots and our people who are offensive" which doesn't suggest that he has anything against such discussion - until questions arise that he can't answer


HAHAHA oh yeah. Rightttttt. Well considering this has been going on for over a year now, we're still to see them subjected to this questioning.

I'll use one of your favourite tactics for seeing the future: LET'S SEE HOW LONG THAT LASTS!!!!!


You mean like the extra 29,000 Romanians and Bulgarians who have arrived in the last year and the fact that Net migration is UP?

Yes like those. It's one thing to show that migration is up (which no-one disputes anywhere) but entirely another to claim that it's a terrible thing in spite of it being economically beneficial


And again you bring race into it when it has nothing to do with race.


[hilarious pic here]

You can't debate things like immigration & integration without giggling like a little baby, i'm done with you on it.

Talking about ghettos and claiming that anyone with a second language can only speak in broken English is nothing to do with race? You also decided with no basis whatsoever that Farage's claim (which was proven false) is probably true: believing things that have been proven false is the very definition of bigotry and yet you claim I'm the one who can't debate. Also not sure where I've been giggling, do feel free to point that out along with any other genuine points you might one day choose to make on the matter


Yup, the top rated ones with most likes, and to see the ones you posted you have to scroll down a fair bit to see any anti-Farage comments.

Ratings of replies aren't taken into account, the chap in the first quote I used (which is a response to the top comment, not really scrolling far down there) has more "likes" than all but the very top commenter - not that top ratings on the internet actually mean someone is right anyway

-:Undertaker:-
16-05-2014, 09:01 PM
I’m not quite sure which thread you’ve been reading, but in this one we have been discussing whether Ukip is racist or not, not mass immigration.

And it's because Ukip want to discuss mass immigration that you in the media and the cartel call us racist.

It doesn't work anymore, don't you get it? For once, you're all going to have to confront open borders - and it terrifies you.


You don’t have to do anything. If Ukip are happy to choose to use those tactics to secure votes then that speaks more for the morals of those running the campaign than anything else.

But again you see, you think you are in the majority on this as do commentators on the Independent and the Guardian but you are in the minority. The vast majority of the public do not agree with open borders, do not want mass immigration and do not consider the Ukip posters racist. So whilst you hand wringers are all claiming offence, charges of waycism and all the rest of it: you are talking to yourselves within the metropolitan bubble.

Why do you think Ukip is taking swathes of the working class Labour vote now? Because Labour are totally out of touch. The cartel parties inhabit a world that resembles something in the Guardian/BBC Land - it's just not the real world.


Good job I didn’t say majority then!

Yup.


‘Funnel those frustrations’ is a fancy way of saying spread hate. You’ve literally just said it yourself, Ukip is manipulating the public and harnessing their frustrations at immigrants and minorities to receive votes.

But again, any hatred is being directed at the political elite and not immigrants. Huge swathes of this country are fed up to their back teeth with low paid jobs going to immigrants from Eastern Europe, they're sick of the crime that mass immigration brings and they simply do not want to live in an area that doesn't feel anything like England anymore. Melanie Phillips sums it up perfectly, from 3:20 onwards:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3QzfrnsQkE

You can dress it up all you want but those are legitimate concerns. And Ukip are the only party listening to us.


Are you seriously saying that it isn’t targeting Romania and Bulgaria on a leaflet explicitly naming the two countries as coming to the UK as a problem?

Hang on, why shouldn't these two be pointed out?

It is not German and French beggars on the streets of out capital. It is not Belgian and Dutch who are selling big issues. It is not the Danes and Swedes who are coming into this country in the hundreds and thousands and depressing wages for the working class.


Calling it bullcrap doesn’t make it any less true. I’d say you’re losing the debate since you’re resulting to blindly calling things ‘bullcrap’ rather than providing a constructive argument to that point.

No, that's you with your racism bullcrap.


Are you seriously saying those jobs are ‘our jobs’? Those jobs are there for whomever the employer chooses to hire. They are not explicitly for British people only. I don’t see you blaming those hiring the immigrants though.

That is true. But it is also true that the job of the British Government is to look after its subjects, something that allowing hundreds and thousands of cheap workers from Eastern Europeans does not do for the poorest in our society struggling to get work or keep their heads above inflation: the only people that mass immigration benefits are large corporations who love the cheap labour and the politicians and Islington elite who benefits from the cheap nannies, cheap waiters and cheap restaurants.

The problem is, that the rest of us outnumber them.


Ah, such an eloquent response. Again, where have I called them racist for having a different opinion? What would you call spreading propaganda about immigrants to channel hate into votes?

Again you keep arguing with emotional rhetoric throwing words like 'hate' or 'racism' about. As I stated above, those tactics don't work anymore my son. You are going to have to do better than that: Ukip has brought the debate about immigration and open borders to the elite after decades of them not wanting to talk about it. Well now it is time to talk about it whether you like it or not.

But look at you all. You can't talk about it, you think we should shut up about it. No way, learn to deal with it.


Being in the majority doesn’t make you right, and one little poll is hardly anything to be proud of. Let’s look at the facts about Ukips campaigning rather than what other people think.

In a national election I really could care less what the minority in the BBC, Guardian, Independent or the Tory press think - there's no way you are going to vote Ukip under any circumstances. My concern is to appeal to those left behind by the cartal parties and persuade them to abandon their rotten two-faced parties who couldn't give a shiny ****e about them.

And it's working.


Pretty funny watching you lose all composure and resorting to name calling when proven wrong.

Says the one who keeps calling a party of 37,000+ members racist lmfao.


It's how the entire discussion begins, and it's clearly something that is a problem since one of the prime offenders (the councillor that Farage didn't even know existed apparently) hasn't been dealt with since his offences in February and that another of his top chaps has been employing illegal immigrants. Furthermore Farage stated "I'm perfectly happy for us to have a debate about our idiots and our people who are offensive" which doesn't suggest that he has anything against such discussion - until questions arise that he can't answer

Because if he continues to point out how the other leaders aren't subjected to the same scrutiny then the media jump on his back and accuse him of being a whinger. Ukip has loons within it, but so do the other main parties: the media's attempts to portray loons as an exclusive Ukip problem isn't working as proven by the polls, the British public know a smear campaign when they see one.


I'll use one of your favourite tactics for seeing the future: LET'S SEE HOW LONG THAT LASTS!!!!!

Oh absolutely, it's been over a year now and I haven't seen any kind of the same scruting applied to Cameron, Miliband or Clegg.

I live in hope, but considering the media are in the pockets of the three cartel parties there's not much a chance of it happening.


Yes like those. It's one thing to show that migration is up (which no-one disputes anywhere) but entirely another to claim that it's a terrible thing in spite of it being economically beneficial

Mass immigration being economically beneficial is debatable, especially considering most immigrants work for very low wages which are under the amount when somebody actually becomes a net positive in terms of taxation to the state.

It certainly isn't good for those on lower wages.
It certainly isn't good for community cohesion and tensions.
It certainly isn't good in terms of crime figures.


Talking about ghettos and claiming that anyone with a second language can only speak in broken English is nothing to do with race? You also decided with no basis whatsoever that Farage's claim (which was proven false) is probably true: believing things that have been proven false is the very definition of bigotry and yet you claim I'm the one who can't debate. Also not sure where I've been giggling, do feel free to point that out along with any other genuine points you might one day choose to make on the matter

No, it has nothing to do with race - culture and language can be seperated from race. I don't know if you are aware of this or not - or if you are purposely ignoring it as it doesn't fit into your world view - but we've actually mainly been focusing on mass immigration from Eastern Europe, most of the people of which are white just like me, you and Nigel Farage.

So unless you're accusing Ukip of being Asian/African nationalists with a dislike of white Europeans, you can take a running jump.


Ratings of replies aren't taken into account, the chap in the first quote I used (which is a response to the top comment, not really scrolling far down there) has more "likes" than all but the very top commenter - not that top ratings on the internet actually mean someone is right anyway

Comments on LBC, the Daily Mail, the Express and the Telegraph are all overwhelmingly on Farage's side.

I suspect it won't be long now until the pro-Tory Daily Mail fix the comment ratings, as they have been doing for weeks now on every single Ukip story.

FlyingJesus
16-05-2014, 09:33 PM
Because if he continues to point out how the other leaders aren't subjected to the same scrutiny then the media jump on his back and accuse him of being a whinger. Ukip has loons within it, but so do the other main parties: the media's attempts to portray loons as an exclusive Ukip problem isn't working as proven by the polls, the British public know a smear campaign when they see one.

No they accuse him of being hypocritical when he claims that UKIP are different and that UKIP are the same as the rest in the same statements :P also the loons in the other parties don't seem to be the ones making policy


Oh absolutely, it's been over a year now and I haven't seen any kind of the same scruting applied to Cameron, Miliband or Clegg.

And it's been many decades since mass immigration but we're yet to have collapsed into a pit of violence and despair


Mass immigration being economically beneficial is debatable, especially considering most immigrants work for very low wages which are under the amount when somebody actually becomes a net positive in terms of taxation to the state.

It certainly isn't good for those on lower wages.
It certainly isn't good for community cohesion and tensions.
It certainly isn't good in terms of crime figures.

Why is it not good for those on lower wages? Presumably because "their" jobs are being "taken" from them ie: capitalism working perfectly and rewarding those who are willing to do the work. What's bad for community cohesion and tensions is political leaders telling the population that anyone from a certain area of the world is something to be feared and suspicious of


No, it has nothing to do with race - culture and language can be seperated from race. I don't know if you are aware of this or not - or if you are purposely ignoring it as it doesn't fit into your world view - but we've actually mainly been focusing on mass immigration from Eastern Europe, most of the people of which are white just like me, you and Nigel Farage.

So unless you're accusing Ukip of being Asian/African nationalists with a dislike of white Europeans, you can take a running jump.

It's clear that you don't know what race is and believe it just to be a matter of skin colour - to see it as white vs non-white is itself extremely racist and erasive of cultures such as ... bombombom ... the Romani.


Comments on LBC, the Daily Mail, the Express and the Telegraph are all overwhelmingly on Farage's side.

I suspect it won't be long now until the pro-Tory Daily Mail fix the comment ratings, as they have been doing for weeks now on every single Ukip story.

Again you're only looking at the starter comments and not the replies to them, which are overwhelmingly against Farage. It's like claiming Habbox is a UKIP support site because you start a load of the threads in current affairs and are pro-UKIP, so let's not look at the rest of the content



The story (and part of the interview) was just on the news again, wonderful excerpt showing just how racist he totally isn't -

O'Brien: 'What about the line about not wanting to live next door to Romanians.'
Farage: 'I didn't say that. I was asked, if a group of Romanian men moved in next door to you, would you be concerned.'
O'Brien: 'What about if a group of German children did? What's the difference?'
Farage: 'You know what the difference is … We want an immigration system based on controlling not only quantity but quality as well.'

The Don
16-05-2014, 09:40 PM
And it's because Ukip want to discuss mass immigration that you in the media and the cartel call us racist.

How many times do I have to repeat to you that it’s not because Ukip want capped immigration that they’re racist? Explain to me how advertising that Romanians are coming to steal your jobs and making them the center of a hate campaign is anything but racist?


It doesn't work anymore, don't you get it? For once, you're all going to have to confront open borders - and it terrifies you.

Why would that terrify me? This isn’t a thread about open borders, take that to another thread if you’re itching to discuss it.


But again you see, you think you are in the majority on this

No, I don’t and I don’t particular care either.


as do commentators on the Independent and the Guardian but you are in the minority. The vast majority of the public do not agree with open borders, do not want mass immigration

I’m not debating mass immigration here, stop trying to go off subject…


and do not consider the Ukip posters racist.

Due to that one poll? 40% of the population or whatever number it was thinking a political party is racist is pretty poor. OH BUT IT”S NOT A MAJORITY lmao.


So whilst you hand wringers are all claiming offence, charges of waycism and all the rest of it: you are talking to yourselves within the metropolitan bubble.

Not really considering a large portion of voters do actually agree with me. It’s obviously not a case of a few people being too sensitive.


Why do you think Ukip is taking swathes of the working class Labour vote now? Because Labour are totally out of touch. The cartel parties inhabit a world that resembles something in the Guardian/BBC Land - it's just not the real world.

That’s really irrelevant to the discussion and doesn’t respond to my point. If a party wants to target a specific group of people to gain popularity then that’s a party I want no part of.


But again, any hatred is being directed at the political elite and not immigrants.

It clearly isn’t unless I’ve completely misinterpreted the poster I posted. It’s the immigrants that are being demonized by Ukip.


Huge swathes of this country are fed up to their back teeth with low paid jobs going to immigrants from Eastern Europe, they're sick of the crime that mass immigration brings and they simply do not want to live in an area that doesn't feel anything like England anymore. Melanie Phillips sums it up perfectly, from 3:20 onwards:


Are you trying to justify Ukips racist campaign?


Hang on, why shouldn't these two be pointed out?

It is not German and French beggars on the streets of out capital. It is not Belgian and Dutch who are selling big issues. It is not the Danes and Swedes who are coming into this country in the hundreds and thousands and depressing wages for the working class.

Yes, let’s target those bloody Romanians and Bulgarians for even daring to sell the big issue on our streets, that should be reserved for the British only!!!



No, that's you with your racism bullcrap.

‘I know you are but what am I’


That is true. But it is also true that the job of the British Government is to look after its subjects, something that allowing hundreds and thousands of cheap workers from Eastern Europeans does not do for the poorest in our society struggling to get work or keep their heads above inflation: the only people that mass immigration benefits are large corporations who love the cheap labour and the politicians and Islington elite who benefits from the cheap nannies, cheap waiters and cheap restaurants.

The problem is, that the rest of us outnumber them.

The 2 Million British Citizens living in the rest of Europe also benefit from open borders but again, I really don’t want to discuss that in this thread, it’s completely off topic.


Again you keep arguing with emotional rhetoric throwing words like 'hate' or 'racism' about.

It’s kind of hard not to use the word racist in a discussion on whether or not Ukips racist…


Says the one who keeps calling a party of 37,000+ members racist lmfao.

Is having 37,000 members meant to somehow prove it’s not a racist party? Didn’t the Nazi party in Germany have way more than that? Ridiculous logic.


FlyingJesus;

Have you seen the other disastrous interview Farage had this week?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YClaK3RDMLc

The actual interview starts at about 4:05

-:Undertaker:-
16-05-2014, 11:14 PM
No they accuse him of being hypocritical when he claims that UKIP are different and that UKIP are the same as the rest in the same statements :P also the loons in the other parties don't seem to be the ones making policy

I do not think I, Nigel Farage or anybody in Ukip has ever claimed that Ukip is absolutely amazingly perfect. What is clear though is that Ukip is being slurred by the establishment media who support the three cartel parties because they're terrified that for the first time in 100 years, one of their lot isn't going to win a national election.

Even Guardian commentators in the comments state that although they don't support Ukip, the establishment slur media campaign has been so obvious. And indeed, that is why every single time Ukip is slurred rather than debated with properly (fruitcakes, gadflys, loons, clowns, racists) they continue to rise in the polls. The establishment media campaign has failed.



And it's been many decades since mass immigration but we're yet to have collapsed into a pit of violence and despair

Actually it's been a decade since numbers went to such numbers, and we're seeing increasing social tensions. But don't take it from me or even Ukip, take it from the grade-A morons who opened the floodgates in the first place under the last Labour Government....

Former Home Secretary Jack Straw: http://news.sky.com/story/1167859/straw-admits-spectacular-immigration-mistake

Former Home Secretary David Blunkett: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24909979 warning over potential riots because of mass immigration.

Ed Miliband admits Labour got mass immigration wrong: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18539472

Now despite these warnings and apologies, the fact remains that whilst within the European Union our elected government is forbidden from doing anything to respond to public opinion on this. There's a clear public consensus now in favour of controlled immigration yet we're being denied it. Claiming that fears over mass immigration have sprung up all of a sudden is complete and utter nonsense. It's been a fear since the late 1960s - as proven in the Enoch Powell Rivers of Blood speech - and since 1997 it has got wildly out of control.

There is a difference between now and before though, you are right in that - the difference is that any fears over immigration raised by members of the public or politicians can no longer be dismissed and silenced by cries of racism by the establishment, as proven in Ukips high polling figures as well as Immigration overtaking the Economy as the number one concern for the public.


Why is it not good for those on lower wages? Presumably because "their" jobs are being "taken" from them ie: capitalism working perfectly and rewarding those who are willing to do the work.

So you advocate, in true libertarian style, complete open borders with the world? Yes or no?

You are aware that even Milton Friedman, leading free market economist, dismissed open borders as an idea saying that it is impossible to have whilst having a centralised, welfare state?

And besides, culture & social cohesion>large multinationals making a lot of money.


What's bad for community cohesion and tensions is political leaders telling the population that anyone from a certain area of the world is something to be feared and suspicious of

Sorry, but people do have things to fear from certain groups coming into the country. A great number of migrant groups have higher crime rates, higher unemployment rates and certain sub groups hold very extreme groups (especially among non-EU migrants) which I have posted polling evidence for in the past but which none of you seemed willing to accept, even if leading politicians now speak openly about the threat of radicalisation amongst migrant groups.

But you keep telling yourself that it isnt a problem in your middle class town.


It's clear that you don't know what race is and believe it just to be a matter of skin colour - to see it as white vs non-white is itself extremely racist and erasive of cultures such as ... bombombom ... the Romani.

The Romani constitute 3.3% of the Romanian population, we are not talking exclusively about them we are talking about holders of Romanian and Bulgarian national passports who are white and belong roughly to the same ethnic group as you and I.

Again, trying to make something into race when it has jack all to do with race.


Again you're only looking at the starter comments and not the replies to them, which are overwhelmingly against Farage. It's like claiming Habbox is a UKIP support site because you start a load of the threads in current affairs and are pro-UKIP, so let's not look at the rest of the content

I'm looking at the top rated comments, not the starter comments.

Try again.


The story (and part of the interview) was just on the news again, wonderful excerpt showing just how racist he totally isn't -

O'Brien: 'What about the line about not wanting to live next door to Romanians.'
Farage: 'I didn't say that. I was asked, if a group of Romanian men moved in next door to you, would you be concerned.'
O'Brien: 'What about if a group of German children did? What's the difference?'
Farage: 'You know what the difference is … We want an immigration system based on controlling not only quantity but quality as well.'

And he's absolutely right seeing as how there has been a Romanian crime wave in London: https://fullfact.org/factchecks/romanian_criminals_UK_Britain-28799 and how Romanians are among the nationality groups most likely to be in prison: https://fullfact.org/factchecks/foreign_prisoners_jails_nationalities_Chris_Grayli ng-28196

And again, Romanian nationals are not a race - they are a nationality.


How many times do I have to repeat to you that it’s not because Ukip want capped immigration that they’re racist? Explain to me how advertising that Romanians are coming to steal your jobs and making them the center of a hate campaign is anything but racist?

It's a fact that they're coming here and taking jobs. Whether the fact is comfortable for you and other hand wringers is not a concern of Ukip, I or the general public: what the general public see is people like you who advocated that we open up the borders to Poland in 2004 saying that only 13,000 a year would come and we ended up with hundreds of thousands. I am afraid that your side has no credibility on this issue what-so-ever, so to turn around and dismiss our valid concerns as waycism or a campaign of hatred is simply all you have to fall back on.

And again, you haven't named the race which the posters target. Spit it out.


Why would that terrify me? This isn’t a thread about open borders, take that to another thread if you’re itching to discuss it.

Because just like you fear a referendum on the EU, you and the political classes simply do not want to discuss these issues. For years now they've been kept silenced by smears and name calling from your side, as you yourself are engaging in rather than debating open borders and our EU membership.

It's all just proven by Farage on Question Time the other night regarding Astra Zeneca, the three other establishment parties were lying to our faces and pretending that the British Government still had democratic control over these decisions when they do not. Only Farage was the one pointing this out, yet all the other panellists could do was jeer and take the piss.

You lot have stolen our democracy and you've stolen our borders. And yet you won't debate it.


No, I don’t and I don’t particular care either.

Ah well excellent, at least you are rooted in some form of reality on this then.


I’m not debating mass immigration here, stop trying to go off subject…

Exactly, because you do not want to debate it. As I keep saying, here are a series of billboards telling the British people as it is - and they agree with them - that our borders are completely open and are now open to Romania and Bulgaria.... and what are the millions of unemployed in Europe looking for right now thanks to your lovely EU's fantastic Euro project? Jobs. Where will they find them? In Britain.

Ukip keep getting proved right just as they were proved right on the Euro currency. Just as they were proved right on the opening of the borders to Poland. Immigration continues to surge.


Due to that one poll? 40% of the population or whatever number it was thinking a political party is racist is pretty poor. OH BUT IT”S NOT A MAJORITY lmao.

It was 20-something % from my recollection, the 40% figure was something like the percentage who believed that Ukip may attract racists - a totally different thing from saying the party is racist. Had similar polls been conducted on other parties like the Tories, similar results would have been found.


Not really considering a large portion of voters do actually agree with me. It’s obviously not a case of a few people being too sensitive.

And we're not after their votes.


That’s really irrelevant to the discussion and doesn’t respond to my point. If a party wants to target a specific group of people to gain popularity then that’s a party I want no part of.

Well i'm sorry if you feel so strongly in defence about Labour and Conservative politicians but personally I am glad that Ukip is targeting those appalling political parties. It's about time that we had some real debate and that those politicians were made to answer for their lies and deceit against the British people.


It clearly isn’t unless I’ve completely misinterpreted the poster I posted. It’s the immigrants that are being demonized by Ukip.

No, it's our insane mass immigration policy that is rightly being demonized by Ukip.

Ukip didn't bring about this situation, you lot did. And now you're going to have to answer for it.


Are you trying to justify Ukips racist campaign?

I have asked like three times now what race the campaign targets, and you haven't yet replied.

Repeating racism like a lobotomised parrot doesn't cut the mustard.


Yes, let’s target those bloody Romanians and Bulgarians for even daring to sell the big issue on our streets, that should be reserved for the British only!!!

Correct, they should not be here. They're a drain on our country and our society.

If they have the skills we need for a job and if they do not have a criminal record, then fine they should be granted work visas. But if they do not have a job and wish to live off the state or sell big issues and live on our streets (which means society has to look after them) then I do not want them here. Ooooooooooooooooh how bigoted of me, but hey that's how the rest of the world does it. I do not want the conditions of the Third World (and the crime that comes with it) brought onto British streets.


The 2 Million British Citizens living in the rest of Europe also benefit from open borders but again, I really don’t want to discuss that in this thread, it’s completely off topic.

Ah this silly comparison again, you do realise that Great Britain is a country of about 60-something million people and the EU is something like 450m people?

So that 2m EU nationals living here and 2m Britons living in the EU really doesn't equate. That'd be like trying to say that 10m Britons moving to China was the same as 10m Chinese moving to Britain despite there only being 60m Britons and 1.3bn Chinese.


It’s kind of hard not to use the word racist in a discussion on whether or not Ukips racist…

Name the race that Ukip is targeting. Do it do it do it do it do it.


Is having 37,000 members meant to somehow prove it’s not a racist party? Didn’t the Nazi party in Germany have way more than that? Ridiculous logic.

Congratulations for invoking Godwin's Law.

That's how absurd your argument is.

Chippiewill
16-05-2014, 11:21 PM
Congratulations for invoking Godwin's Law.

That's how absurd your argument is.

Hyperbolic analogies don't make them invalid.

The Don
16-05-2014, 11:44 PM
It's a fact that they're coming here and taking jobs. Whether the fact is comfortable for you and other hand wringers is not a concern of Ukip, I or the general public: what the general public see is people like you who advocated that we open up the borders to Poland in 2004 saying that only 13,000 a year would come and we ended up with hundreds of thousands. I am afraid that your side has no credibility on this issue what-so-ever, so to turn around and dismiss our valid concerns as waycism or a campaign of hatred is simply all you have to fall back on.

AGAIN, this is all irrelevant to the actual discussion. You keep writing huge diatribes in the hope that I get caught up in a completely different discussion with you and forget about the original point of this conversation. Could you please stop changing the topic. This hasn’t been a debate about open borders or anything else, it’s all from a comment about Ukip being racist and you asking me to prove it.


And again, you haven't named the race which the posters target. Spit it out.

You seem to have this idea that racism is solely about skin colour, which is simply not true and is an outdated idea. When Nigel Farage went to Scotland and was abused by the SNP, he referred to them as being racist to the English. This completely contradicts this idea that a white European can’t be racist against another white European. To answer your question, the example I used was racist towards Romanians. Here’s a source for the snp comment http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22566183


It was 20-something % from my recollection, the 40% figure was something like the percentage who believed that Ukip may attract racists - a totally different thing from saying the party is racist. Had similar polls been conducted on other parties like the Tories, similar results would have been found.

I very much doubt it.


Well i'm sorry if you feel so strongly in defence about Labour and Conservative politicians but personally I am glad that Ukip is targeting those appalling political parties. It's about time that we had some real debate and that those politicians were made to answer for their lies and deceit against the British people.

I was referring to the immigrants that Ukip has been demonizing, not politicians.


No, it's our insane mass immigration policy that is rightly being demonized by Ukip.

No, it’s the Romanian immigrants that are targeted. “They’re after your jobs” literally pins the blame on them, not the system. Do not try and deny this.



I have asked like three times now what race the campaign targets, and you haven't yet replied.

Romanians, and other immigrants from the poorer EU countries.


Ah this silly comparison again, you do realise that Great Britain is a country of about 60-something million people and the EU is something like 450m people?

So that 2m EU nationals living here and 2m Britons living in the EU really doesn't equate. That'd be like trying to say that 10m Britons moving to China was the same as 10m Chinese moving to Britain despite there only being 60m Britons and 1.3bn Chinese.

Are those 2 Million Brits not benefiting from open borders? I didn’t say anything else. Are they benefiting from open borders, yes or no?


Name the race that Ukip is targeting. Do it do it do it do it do it.
Answered above.


Congratulations for invoking Godwin's Law.

That's how absurd your argument is.

It’s still a valid comment and proves how bizarre your 37,000 member comment was.

FlyingJesus
16-05-2014, 11:56 PM
I do not think I, Nigel Farage or anybody in Ukip has ever claimed that Ukip is absolutely amazingly perfect. What is clear though is that Ukip is being slurred by the establishment media who support the three cartel parties because they're terrified that for the first time in 100 years, one of their lot isn't going to win a national election.

Even Guardian commentators in the comments state that although they don't support Ukip, the establishment slur media campaign has been so obvious. And indeed, that is why every single time Ukip is slurred rather than debated with properly (fruitcakes, gadflys, loons, clowns, racists) they continue to rise in the polls. The establishment media campaign has failed.

That's lovely but has nothing to do with what I actually said. You'd do well in UKIP, you're good at changing the subject


Actually it's been a decade since numbers went to such numbers, and we're seeing increasing social tensions. But don't take it from me or even Ukip, take it from the grade-A morons who opened the floodgates in the first place under the last Labour Government....

Former Home Secretary Jack Straw: http://news.sky.com/story/1167859/straw-admits-spectacular-immigration-mistake

Former Home Secretary David Blunkett: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24909979 warning over potential riots because of mass immigration.

Ed Miliband admits Labour got mass immigration wrong: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18539472

Now despite these warnings and apologies, the fact remains that whilst within the European Union our elected government is forbidden from doing anything to respond to public opinion on this. There's a clear public consensus now in favour of controlled immigration yet we're being denied it. Claiming that fears over mass immigration have sprung up all of a sudden is complete and utter nonsense. It's been a fear since the late 1960s - as proven in the Enoch Powell Rivers of Blood speech - and since 1997 it has got wildly out of control.

There is a difference between now and before though, you are right in that - the difference is that any fears over immigration raised by members of the public or politicians can no longer be dismissed and silenced by cries of racism by the establishment, as proven in Ukips high polling figures as well as Immigration overtaking the Economy as the number one concern for the public.

And nothing else has happened in that decade to change the way that people live and act at all, it's all to do with immigration. Hmmmm. Straw and Milliband say they were wrong about the numbers, not the impact, and Blunkett is very much talking about the Roma only - oops race rears its head again. You're also equating fear with actuality, and promoting majority view as though it were a magically perfect thesis


So you advocate, in true libertarian style, complete open borders with the world? Yes or no?

You are aware that even Milton Friedman, leading free market economist, dismissed open borders as an idea saying that it is impossible to have whilst having a centralised, welfare state?

And besides, culture & social cohesion>large multinationals making a lot of money.

Nope that is not what I said, try responding to my post


Sorry, but people do have things to fear from certain groups coming into the country. A great number of migrant groups have higher crime rates, higher unemployment rates and certain sub groups hold very extreme groups (especially among non-EU migrants) which I have posted polling evidence for in the past but which none of you seemed willing to accept, even if leading politicians now speak openly about the threat of radicalisation amongst migrant groups.

But you keep telling yourself that it isnt a problem in your middle class town.

Yeah we wouldn't want extremist views in our country would we... and ahhh yes you've previously posted about how a "certain group" called the Roma are going to come over in their droves and cause gang violence. But what's this you say about the Roma?? -


The Romani constitute 3.3% of the Romanian population, we are not talking exclusively about them we are talking about holders of Romanian and Bulgarian national passports who are white and belong roughly to the same ethnic group as you and I.

Again, trying to make something into race when it has jack all to do with race.

Whoops.


I'm looking at the top rated comments, not the starter comments.

Try again.

You don't seem to understand that a reply to a comment with large support still will not make it go higher; only the starter comments get rated in that way, so you are only looking at the starter comments if you look at the top bit. Never mind, obviously too much for you


And he's absolutely right seeing as how there has been a Romanian crime wave in London: https://fullfact.org/factchecks/romanian_criminals_UK_Britain-28799 and how Romanians are among the nationality groups most likely to be in prison: https://fullfact.org/factchecks/foreign_prisoners_jails_nationalities_Chris_Grayli ng-28196

And again, Romanian nationals are not a race - they are a nationality.

From your own link:
http://fullfact.org/sites/fullfact.org/files/styles/large/public/Foreign_prisoners_UK_jails_v2.JPG?itok=AqKTSatg
Absolutely minuscule change in the percentage of foreigners as prisoners in the UK, so while the numbers of foreign prisoners is up the number of British criminals has risen even higher. As for Romanians on their own, 0.5% of the prison population in those stats are Romanian, hardly cause to condemn the country and be fearful of all its inhabitants

Ardemax
17-05-2014, 11:28 AM
The Sun calling Farage racist (lol)

http://i.imgur.com/cZkgPoC.jpg

Tables are turning so it seems

GommeInc
17-05-2014, 12:05 PM
The Sun calling Farage racist (lol)

http://i.imgur.com/cZkgPoC.jpg

Tables are turning so it seems
Fear of Romanians moving in next door isn't racism. It's xenophobia. It's nice to see The Sun being as useful and knowledgeable as ever by mixing up words :P

Yawn
17-05-2014, 01:33 PM
that was tragic

so bad when he said "well u know the difference..." wat the actual ****??

FlyingJesus
17-05-2014, 01:46 PM
Romanians are a lower quality type of human and will all murder you

Chippiewill
17-05-2014, 07:17 PM
Romanians are criminals in the same way that Muslims are terrorists.

-:Undertaker:-
18-05-2014, 02:08 AM
AGAIN, this is all irrelevant to the actual discussion. You keep writing huge diatribes in the hope that I get caught up in a completely different discussion with you and forget about the original point of this conversation. Could you please stop changing the topic. This hasn’t been a debate about open borders or anything else, it’s all from a comment about Ukip being racist and you asking me to prove it.

But no it isn't. You are saying that by pointing out that the borders have opened to Romania and Bulgaria that it is somehow waycist - but that is a fact, and within the context of a discussion on mass immigration we should and we WILL talk about it whether you like it or not. Your side last time used the racist card and scaremongering card to suppress discussion on the borders opening to Poland yet you got it completely wrong. We don't get fooled again.

You lot simply do not want to talk about it. You'd rather we shut up about it.


You seem to have this idea that racism is solely about skin colour, which is simply not true and is an outdated idea. When Nigel Farage went to Scotland and was abused by the SNP, he referred to them as being racist to the English. This completely contradicts this idea that a white European can’t be racist against another white European. To answer your question, the example I used was racist towards Romanians. Here’s a source for the snp comment http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22566183

Exactly, racism to you now means "I disagree with what you are saying"

Meanwhile, i'll stick to the definition of judging another by their skin colour. Cheers.


I very much doubt it.

I'd like to see what polling the party that drove 'Go Home' posters around the streets scored.


I was referring to the immigrants that Ukip has been demonizing, not politicians.

I know you were. And I am telling you that the people we're really demonizing are the politicians.


No, it’s the Romanian immigrants that are targeted. “They’re after your jobs” literally pins the blame on them, not the system. Do not try and deny this.

Are you referring to this poster? http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/74360000/jpg/_74360089_021986343-1.jpg

Because that poster doesn't even refer or mention Romania or Romanians.

You are seeing things again that you want to see.


Romanians, and other immigrants from the poorer EU countries.

Well why would we be talking about Germany, France, the Netherlands and Sweden in the context of mass unemployed within the EU considering those countries don't have the chronic unemployment or wage problems that Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Romania, Poland and Bulgaria have?

Think about it before you type this rubbish.


Are those 2 Million Brits not benefiting from open borders? I didn’t say anything else. Are they benefiting from open borders, yes or no?

Yes, but only because open borders are there in place of a system that I would have. Whether under open borders or controlled borders, Britons would be able to work and live within EU countries just as millions of Britons live and work in Australia, Canada, America, Vietnam, Hong Kong, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Shanghai and so on. Is that true or false?

The problem with open borders is that we don't have any control over who comes.


It’s still a valid comment and proves how bizarre your 37,000 member comment was.

If you want to use Nazi slurs against those who want to control our own borders then go ahead.


That's lovely but has nothing to do with what I actually said. You'd do well in UKIP, you're good at changing the subject

ZzzzzzZZZZZZzzzzzzzz.


And nothing else has happened in that decade to change the way that people live and act at all, it's all to do with immigration. Hmmmm. Straw and Milliband say they were wrong about the numbers, not the impact

No no, nothing at all... except the fact that large numbers have come in that we have never seen on such a scale this large before. Nope.

And as for what they say, actually if you have any sort of comprehension of why numbers are an issue it is because if you allow such numbers to come in then they do not integrate and cause community tensions as cultural ghettos are formed. It's happened in one of the northern cities of one of those ministers (I forget which one) where there has been tension between Pakistani migrants and Polish migrants.

Very distinct groups living next to one another who don't integrate = trouble ahead.


and Blunkett is very much talking about the Roma only - oops race rears its head again. You're also equating fear with actuality, and promoting majority view as though it were a magically perfect thesis

So Blunket and thus Labour are racists then?


Nope that is not what I said, try responding to my post

Actually it is. You've said time and time again that integration doesn't actually matter and that if people want to speak in their own languages - and as many people want to come - then you have no problem with that. Wy not answer some questions....

Do numbers effect how easily migrants integrate into a country? yes/no
Does language have a huge place in a community and a nation in terms of culture? yes/no
Should immigrants who come to this country be expected to integrate with this country? yes/no
Should the British government have the ability to control the borders to Europe? yes/no


Yeah we wouldn't want extremist views in our country would we... and ahhh yes you've previously posted about how a "certain group" called the Roma are going to come over in their droves and cause gang violence. But what's this you say about the Roma?? -

If the Roma are causing high crime rates then they should be pointed out too. Call them Roma, Romanian nationals or a race - I don't give a damn. We have a right to protect our borders from groups which have high crime rates because it's the people in this country who will suffer at your stupidity for letting absolutely everybody in.


You don't seem to understand that a reply to a comment with large support still will not make it go higher; only the starter comments get rated in that way, so you are only looking at the starter comments if you look at the top bit. Never mind, obviously too much for you

Wrong, the favourited tab lists in order of popularity as does the DM and Telegraph.

But whatever, point being - majority who have watched judging by comments back Farage.


From your own link:
http://fullfact.org/sites/fullfact.org/files/styles/large/public/Foreign_prisoners_UK_jails_v2.JPG?itok=AqKTSatg
Absolutely minuscule change in the percentage of foreigners as prisoners in the UK, so while the numbers of foreign prisoners is up the number of British criminals has risen even higher. As for Romanians on their own, 0.5% of the prison population in those stats are Romanian, hardly cause to condemn the country and be fearful of all its inhabitants

When they're hugely an overepresentation of a smallish population in comparison to the population of the UK as a whole then we should worry yes. Indeed, those who live in areas where these groups congregate have a huge reason to worry - but not you in your middle class, beachside town.


The Sun calling Farage racist (lol)

http://i.imgur.com/cZkgPoC.jpg

Tables are turning so it seems

What tables have turned?

Ukip and Farage have just been under attack from the biggest smear campaign ever conducted by the media in history - even Neil Kinnock as Labour leader didn't face this, he had least had the Daily Mirror and the Guardian on his side during the belting he took in the 1980s.

Worried Tory paper attacks Ukip..... shocker! :P

-:Undertaker:-
18-05-2014, 06:55 AM
The Sun calling Farage racist (lol)

Just seen this in response to The Sun's Farage jibe, and this is genuine haha....


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bn1XIMZCUAAXeh2.jpg

Such a transparent and hypocritical media campaign.

The Don
18-05-2014, 02:04 PM
Can't be bothered to argue with your off topic discussion but you're a moron if you don't think starting a campaign against Romanians and Bulgarians, referring to an entire race as criminals, saying you wouldn't want to live next door to them because "you know why" and countless other things is racist.

-:Undertaker:-
18-05-2014, 02:07 PM
Can't be bothered to argue with your off topic discussion but you're a moron if you don't think starting a campaign against Romanians and Bulgarians, referring to an entire race as criminals, saying you wouldn't want to live next door to them because "you know why" and countless other things is racist.

Among Romanians nationals and Bulgarian nationals there are much higher crime rates, as Farage said for example this is down to the fact that these two countries suffer poverty and all the ills that that brings. In terms of travellers or Roma, they have high rates too - I know a shop near mine where they set up camp on a field had to hire security yards as large groups of Roma would come in and attempt to rob the shop. Gypsies, both Irish and Roma, generally have no respect for the law hence why they illegally set up camp on private land and make the area a living hellhole for residents.

Sorry but it is true. And the truth will no longer be silenced.

And PS - Romanians and Bulgarians aren't a race of people no matter how much you'd like them to be.

akeel$
18-05-2014, 02:07 PM
I don't even .. whatever.

The Don
18-05-2014, 02:11 PM
Among Romanians nationals and Bulgarian nationals there are much higher crime rates, as Farage said for example this is down to the fact that these two countries suffer poverty and all the ills that that brings. In terms of travellers or Roma, they have high rates too - I know a shop near mine where they set up camp on a field had to hire security yards as large groups of Roma would come in and attempt to rob the shop. Gypsies, both Irish and Roma, generally have no respect for the law hence why they illegally set up camp on private land and make the area a living hellhole for residents.

Sorry but it is true. And the truth will no longer be silenced.

And PS - Romanians and Bulgarians aren't a race of people.

Doesn't make it acceptable to target an entire group of people.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmahnTsIQAAJzQx.jpg:large

Have a go at Ukip or Fascist Dan lmao.

http://www.remarkably.com/ukip-fascist/

-:Undertaker:-
18-05-2014, 02:14 PM
Doesn't make it acceptable to target an entire group of people.

So we shouldn't talk about high crime rates among Romanian nationals in London then as it is 'targeting' a group of people?

And we shouldn't talk about mass immigration which depresses wages as it is 'targeting' a group of people?

And we shouldn't talk about EU freedom of movement which is causing a housing crisis as it is 'targeting'?

In other words, what you and the politicians really want is for the great unwashed to shut up.

FlyingJesus
18-05-2014, 05:56 PM
ZzzzzzZZZZZZzzzzzzzz.

Sorry, does logical argument bore you?


No no, nothing at all... except the fact that large numbers have come in that we have never seen on such a scale this large before. Nope.

And as for what they say, actually if you have any sort of comprehension of why numbers are an issue it is because if you allow such numbers to come in then they do not integrate and cause community tensions as cultural ghettos are formed. It's happened in one of the northern cities of one of those ministers (I forget which one) where there has been tension between Pakistani migrants and Polish migrants.

Very distinct groups living next to one another who don't integrate = trouble ahead.

Are you seriously suggesting that in a decade all that's changed socially in the UK is the number of immigrants? And no, you don't get to make up what you think they're saying when they aren't saying it. You try this a lot, and it's just fiction


So Blunket and thus Labour are racists then?

Blunkett's statement that the Roma will cause trouble is racist, yes. You seem to believe that I can only think one person is racist at a time for some reason


Actually it is. You've said time and time again that integration doesn't actually matter and that if people want to speak in their own languages - and as many people want to come - then you have no problem with that. Wy not answer some questions....

This is actually hilarious. You make a false claim about my views (because obviously you know me better than I know me) and then when I correct you you dismiss it and make up even more nonsense. You've responded to me saying that capitalism works fine by talking about a centralised welfare state, to which I quite rightly stated that that's nothing to do with what I'd written, and your response is "actually it is" followed by yet another completely different topic. Ridiculous, and you do it all the time just like Farage did in this interview because you don't have proper responses to the actual conversation that's happening. You've literally rid the thread of its original intention through talking utter bollocks about other subjects that were never raised


Do numbers effect how easily migrants integrate into a country? yes/no
Does language have a huge place in a community and a nation in terms of culture? yes/no
Should immigrants who come to this country be expected to integrate with this country? yes/no
Should the British government have the ability to control the borders to Europe? yes/no

No, numbers are an abstract feature of calculation and shouting SEVEN will not affect immigration
Yes
With the laws, of course. Forcing "culture", no
Not if it contravenes the laws put in place by the collective that they chose to be a part of


If the Roma are causing high crime rates then they should be pointed out too. Call them Roma, Romanian nationals or a race - I don't give a damn. We have a right to protect our borders from groups which have high crime rates because it's the people in this country who will suffer at your stupidity for letting absolutely everybody in.

Again not the point that was being made. You simultaneously claim that it's the Roma that cause problems, that they're a tiny minority of the whole Romanian population (and obviously an even smaller minority of immigrants to the UK therefore), and that Romanian immigration is causing huge swathes of crime. You're not making any sense whatsoever and then you have the audacity to call others stupid


Wrong, the favourited tab lists in order of popularity as does the DM and Telegraph.

But whatever, point being - majority who have watched judging by comments back Farage.

Oh my god this is not difficult - if a comment is posted and gets 30 likes, it will feature higher than one with 2 likes even if there's a response to the latter that has 60 likes, because only the likes on the main comment get rated. Quality not quantity anyway


When they're hugely an overepresentation of a smallish population in comparison to the population of the UK as a whole then we should worry yes. Indeed, those who live in areas where these groups congregate have a huge reason to worry - but not you in your middle class, beachside town.

Cool, I'm not allowed to discuss certain things because of where I live. For someone who claims to hate big government you sure do like placing restrictions on people based on area

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