Do you believe in 'god'?

[Biseinen]

Well do you, I mean, theres tons to argue over if there or isn't there...



I want to believe in God. I really do. And an afterlife.

It would be so great -- so reassuring, so comforting, so peaceful -- to know that there's Someone out there who's in control of a world that seems so out of control. That, despite all appearances, all things really do work together for good to them that love God. That an Eternal Reward awaits all of us (or at least, me) in a future life to compensate for all of the **** we have to put up with (some more than others) in this one. That in the end, I can look back on my existence and rejoice that all the balances are added up and everything has worked out to be just and fair.

This is just what religion (just about any religion) promises.

Except that it all sounds *way* too good to be true.

And if there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Of course, it might not be. Let's consider the possibilities.

Ah, but that's where things get really hairy. There are so many possibilities, and God has done a really miserable job of making Himself(1) clear about which ones are the right ones. Each possibility has its share of adherents, all of whom are convinced (by the spirit, or by some analogous means) that their beliefs are the "right" ones.

(Footnote 1: In this essay, I will chauvinistically use male pronouns to refer to Deity, because it makes the narrative flow more smoothly than saying He/She/It/They all the time. Apologies in advance.)

So, searching them out by the spirit doesn't tell us anything, since the spirit is demonstrably telling one thing to one person and another thing to another person. How about logic and reason? Well, logic and reason are no help, because each one of these belief systems is demonstrably self-contradictory in one way or another. And what's more, the adherents of those belief systems don't see those things as contradictory at all -- they have found ways to explain these things away so that they don't seem like contradictions after all ... not to the believers, anyway. One example: two books of the New Testament say that Mary saw one angel at Jesus's tomb, and two more say that there were two angels at Jesus's tomb. Clearly, there *were* two there, but Mary only *saw* one of them. It all makes sense ... if you believe.

Ah, and that's really the bottom line, isn't it. Logic and sound reasoning are "misleading", and even spiritual witnesses aren't reliable -- but that leap of faith, that will answer all your doubts. Just believe. As I've been told so often, "Seeing isn't believing; believing is seeing." ... which is a clever way of saying that "we who are believers, we don't let troublesome contradictions get in our way; we've made that 'leap of faith', which renders doubts and contradictions irrelevant. God will make everything clear, in His Own good time. Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to sit quietly and wait for the Second Coming (or some analogous occurrence), at which time, all these things will be made clear."

Sorry, but I just can't buy that. If there is a God, He wouldn't have discontinuities that would need explaining, or at least, He wouldn't wait forever to make them understandable to the average mortal mind. If there is a God, He wouldn't *want* me to suspend reason and doubt and critical analysis for the sake of a "just believe, and that will make everything all right" mentality -- on the contrary, He would welcome questions and doubts and fears, and would explain them clearly and understandably. He loves me, after all, presumably, right? He wants me to know the truth. So why all the (apparently deliberate) secrecy? He's my Parent, after all, in at least some metaphorical sense, right? Why then does He act so much like an absent father?

If God could create the universe, God could speak to me and help me understand Him. God wouldn't need a spokesperson, and wouldn't need a book, and wouldn't need a Holy Spirit. If God wants me to know Him, He knows where to find me.

Until then -- to be truthful -- I'm really better off trusting in the good old arm of flesh. The arm of flesh doesn't let me down. I pray to God, asking for guidance, and what happens? Nothing. I trust in the arm of flesh -- work hard, keep my nose clean -- and I get ahead in the world. I pay tithing, hoping that God will open the windows of heaven, and what happens? Nothing. But if I put that 10% into my savings now I've got a retirement to look forward to. I believe that God created the world in 6 days, 6000 years ago, and how does that help me understand the observable universe? Not at all. On the contrary, it forces me to come up with clever theories about how the light from stars tens of thousands of light years away is already arriving here on earth, and how dinosaur fossils can be millions of years old, and on and on. But if I believe that the universe is billions of years old, that it evolved into what it is now -- then the observable evidence fits neatly into place and makes all kinds of sense, thank you.

In the end, I've been unable to discover any system of belief -- Christian or otherwise -- in which God can exist without colliding with observable evidence in significant ways.

And so, after looking for God using logic and reason, using blind faith, using spiritual witnesses, using written scriptures -- in short, using any and all means available to us -- God simply fails to emerge as a viable concept, much less a living, breathing, existing being. I really want to believe that there's Someone out there who will make everything all right. I suspect that we all do. I suspect that it's built into us, a holdover from our childhoods. But eventually we have to grow up, and face facts. There is no one out there who has all the answers. We're on our own for that. I have come to the conclusion that the sooner we get ahold of that and hang onto it, the happier we will all be.

So that leads to what I think, what about you?

[Adam$]

I do like to think that there is a God, and an afterlife. I do not go to church, but I believe there is something, or someone, that is watching over us.

[0verRide]

i do. it cant be a coinsidence that we were all born and i believe god was the answer to life

[EletricMornings]

Ok basically no.wHAT I BELIVE IN IS GHOSTS
eek caps.
basically your spirti comes to earth if you were good or died a death tht was cruel
and if ur bad well it disapears

[Biseinen]

Can you guys back up what you believe in?

[Adam$]

I don't get you..

[0verRide]

me either if u mean by wot religion then im catholic

[Garycia]

I do, but only pray if I want something.. I've just relised how nasty I am to him :/.

[Tommy]

Def no, i cant believe some people actual believe in some dude that has powers to make a world. To me it sounds stupid. Its just something someone made up ages ago, by an old man with a long beard.

[Biseinen]

I do like to think that there is a God, and an afterlife. I do not go to church, but I believe there is something, or someone, that is watching over us.


I meant, can you back up what you're saying?

[Mentor]

Im currantly to lazy to read all that but im an aithist, god doesnt make sence, and theres is as much proof for him existniong as there is for frank the invisable blue dinosaw "/

I personaly woulnt like a god, im far happyer having free will and making my own choises, wich as far as my perseptions allow me to know i am, therefor contradicting one of the bibles many millions of contradictions.

Id rather just die than have an after life, eternitys to long, ud get board no matter how great some magic place is supposed to be anyway.

[Tommy]

True if youre dead it doesnt really matter if there is an afterlife, i think you come back as someone else.
I mean some people who believe in religion, think there being really good.
But youre letting a book boss you about, thats not exactly great.

[Eamonn]

How could you not beleive in God :@ be a sin not to

[Biseinen]

Says who? God?

[Mentor]

True if youre dead it doesnt really matter if there is an afterlife, i think you come back as someone else.
I mean some people who believe in religion, think there being really good.
But youre letting a book boss you about, thats not exactly great.
Naa reincarning is hevily flawed, dispite not being able to account for popualtion increace it would be pointless, as u would not be the same person reincanted, since diffent genitics and diffent upbrings would creat an entirely new charicter, with no relation to the previos one anyway, meaning if there was reincarnition its no diffent to being dead and a new person coming along anyway "/



How could you not beleive in God :@ be a sin not to
But as i dont belive there is a god, no one can actaly inforce the bs anyway

[Garycia]

I only believe in god because of football, Liverpool losing 3-0 prayed to God - we win on penalties, 1-0 down and only 8 minutes to go, prayed to God and we win 3-1 :).

[Eamonn]

I only believe in god because of football, Liverpool losing 3-0 prayed to God - we win on penalties, 1-0 down and only 8 minutes to go, prayed to God and we win 3-1 :).
Well thats just pathetic.. you only beleive in God because a football team won?

[Jinxxed]

God's cool :8

[Michael.]

I only believe in god because of football, Liverpool losing 3-0 prayed to God - we win on penalties, 1-0 down and only 8 minutes to go, prayed to God and we win 3-1 :).
But dont you think that's morally wrong? Using God when you need him?

[Mentor]

I only believe in god because of football, Liverpool losing 3-0 prayed to God - we win on penalties, 1-0 down and only 8 minutes to go, prayed to God and we win 3-1 :).
the thats contradicted, as id bet at least one person supprting the other side, prayed the for there team to win and were then dissapointed "/ so its just a 50% chance non infulced

[Jamlew]

I believe in god and jesus, the bible could have been made up, but why would soo many people say they saw jesus, if it was only one person writing it then maybe, but life had to start some where didnt it.

[Biseinen]

Haha, thats so ironically bad to do. :p

[Garycia]

Dudes, didn't I say how awful I was to him so don't tell me what I already know.

[Mentor]

I believe in god and jesus, the bible could have been made up, but why would soo many people say they saw jesus, if it was only one person writing it then maybe, but life had to start some where didnt it.
lmao? say theyve seen jesus, how many people do u know who have hit the 2005 year mark and where around back then =.= The bible is the only proof and that has been proven to be orgnal phiophy, converted to propergrander, and been rewriten multiple times, by people complty unralted to the orgnal events that are discribled, plus anything the rewrites dont like got sc****d, aka women haveing equal righst, that tesiment went, even thogh looking at old hidden text is shown jesus also had femail desiples.

so even if the story were true (wich im as sure as i can possibly be its not) the bible is not even a slighlty correct reprisntaluon of it "/

[Forest-Law]

I love theology and the theory that God exists is one I believe in. Every action has a cause. Anyone, who disproves this is ... well ... an idiot. Hence, in terms of creation of the universe, our planet, human beings, every child conceived - a blueprint for an adult being - there must be a cause. Catholics call this God. Creator.

- paranormal expieriences, eg people expieriencing near death. White light etc

- of course - the bible (although i don't believe in some of it. - too long to explain)

- what and who created the first human being on this planet. What created the animals and the plants etc. Must be a creator.

ETC...

these are interesting sites you should check out....

Several Reasons Why God Exists (http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html)

Interview With God (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com)

Intelligence of this planet will baffle human life, especially in my lifetime and the many after it. Maybe one day, scientific space exploration will disprove God and the Cataholic faith.

_____

I prefer to think up different theories beyond religion. Especially the meaning of life, that interests me.


The Meaning of Life is philosophy, and if it isn't, at least it gives some meaning to it.

[Biseinen]

the bible (although i don't believe in some of it. - too long to explain.

In my eyes, the bible only exists for those afraid to die.

[Mentor]

I love theology and the theory that God exists is one I believe in. Every action has a cause. Anyone, who disproves this is ... well ... an idiot. Hence, in terms of creation of the universe, our planet, human beings, every child conceived - a blueprint for an adult being - there must be a cause. Catholics call this God. Creator.


But that logic contrdicts it self, since if everything needs a cause so does god, so he coulnt be a cause in himself "/



- paranormal expieriences, eg people expieriencing near death. White light etc

- of course - the bible (although i don't believe in some of it. - too long to explain)

- what and who created the first human being on this planet. What created the animals and the plants etc. Must be a creator.

the white light is a result of chemicals reliced in the brain due to servear lack of oxigen aka when somes dieing

bible? anyone can write a bible

That one dosnt even make sence, evilotion is proven, as much as some fanatics like to disagree.



these are interesting sites you should check out....

Several Reasons Why God Exists (http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html)

Interview With God (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com)

due to lazyness ill look at the links later



Intelligence of this planet will baffle human life, especially in my lifetime and the many after it. Maybe one day, scientific space exploration will disprove God and the Cataholic faith.

i dont get the refcnes to cataholic faith, since its not realy a faith in its own right to start with, its a brach of cristanity? plus there are plenty of other religions and faiths as well.

Also if u look, sciance can already show exsectly how we came around, life eveolved, uninvece evolved and everything, its only fault currantly is, it has not yet the abilty to prove many of this so much is still theartical "/



I prefer to think up different theories beyond religion. Especially the meaning of life, that interests me.


[COLOR=Red]The Meaning of Life is philosophy, and if it isn't, at least it gives some meaning to it.

I dont realy belive in a deep meaing of life, im not here for a purpos, im here becuse i was born. what i do with my life, and what effects it has on others, is my own choise.

nice quote btw

[Eamonn]

That is so not true the bible is exists for carrying on the religion and beliefs

[Biseinen]

Proof, eamons?

[Mentor]

That is so not true the bible is exists for carrying on the religion and beliefs
wich post are u refering to?

anyway, the orgnal intetions of the bible can be seen via a histocal study, aka when working with proof and fact, the bible itself relise on belife, as some people seem pretty happy with ignorace, wich theefor allows it to be eblive how ever much of it is disproved

[Biseinen]

And besides, the bible was written by man, inperfectuous beings which is not the work of something that is perfect. Ie in what you believe in, god.

[.FunkyChicken.]

I have to say that i am an atheist (which means i am not sure) because I really have no idea if there is someone up there, it would be nice if there was, but as i say, im not sure :(

[Mentor]

I have to say that i am an atheist (which means i am not sure) because I really have no idea if there is someone up there, it would be nice if there was, but as i say, im not sure :(
urmm that would be agnostic, if u aint shure.

Athist means u DO not belive in a god "/

[Biseinen]

People get mixed up easily when saying if they do/do not/maybe believe in god.

[popppy3000]

i am a chathlic but i dont go to church

[Biseinen]

Am I wrong or isn't that a sin to have an actual religion and not go to church? I swear I heard that somewhere...

(That I'm 50/50 on so I know I'm probably wrong) xP

[Forest-Law]

But that logic contrdicts it self, since if everything needs a cause so does god, so he coulnt be a cause in himself

Not necessarily, because God's existence is not rooted firstly in the material universe. He existed outside of it in another realm before the Physical Universe existed. The laws of that realm we have no knowledge about and we cannot impose the rules of our natural realm on that other realm.


..basically God existed outside the universe. We know nothing about this "realm" .... maybe nothing has a cause there . . . we will never know

[NekkLe]

I believe that there is a God up there. However, I don't go to church, only for special occasions.
I think that when people get obsessed that they have to do certain things in life in order to give or to worship God, I think they can get a little to happy about it, if you know what I mean.
You don't want to end up like a Ned Flanders ;)

[Mentor]

Not necessarily, because God's existence is not rooted firstly in the material universe. He existed outside of it in another realm before the Physical Universe existed. The laws of that realm we have no knowledge about and we cannot impose the rules of our natural realm on that other realm.


So, if god cant exsist within the rules, people can just clame the dont apply to him.
So why exsactly does the univece itself have to apply to rules, if the univece needs creating, god needs creating, if god can just be, then the univce must also be able to just be.





..basically God existed outside the universe. We know nothing about this "realm" .... maybe nothing has a cause there . . . we will never know
this relm would also of needed a cause, by that theary, along with the univce were that needs a cuase would also need a cause.

[Rachi]

I dno
coz there are loadsa gods all ova the world and we jus happened 2 have one called god?

[NekkLe]

I dno
coz there are loadsa gods all ova the world and we jus happened 2 have one called god?

Different Religions have different gods. Christianity has one and thats who were talking about (I believe).

[Forest-Law]

So, if god cant exsist within the rules, people can just clame the dont apply to him.
So why exsactly does the univece itself have to apply to rules, if the univece needs creating, god needs creating, if god can just be, then the univce must also be able to just be.


this relm would also of needed a cause, by that theary, along with the univce were that needs a cuase would also need a cause.

but maybe this universe, which is yet to be explored so is not hardly known, is completely different to the other 'realm'. As a catholic, I believe this to be heaven btw.

and...

simplest of human senses - right and wrong - does there really exist "right" and "wrong"? Is there anything wrong with ****, murder, child abuse? If so, why? Where do these objective moral laws come from, if not from God? How can there be a moral law without a moral lawgiver?

[Rachi]

Different Religions have different gods. Christianity has one and thats who were talking about (I believe).

LOL but ours jus happens 2 be called God

[NekkLe]

LOL but ours jus happens 2 be called God

Yep :p

[Mentor]

I dno
coz there are loadsa gods all ova the world and we jus happened 2 have one called god?
Actaly the cistian god has a name, its just most dont know it, its jehva or somthing like that if i rember rightly "/


but maybe this universe, which is yet to be explored so is not hardly known, is completely different to the other 'realm'. As a catholic, I believe this to be heaven btw.


There cannot be another relm thogh, since for there to be relms at all they must be crated on the logic u said, for them to come about without creation, means they came without cause, wich means the univece itself could have been created without cause from the same effect, so same logic, justs simpler and more likly.



simplest of human senses - right and wrong - does there really exist "right" and "wrong"?

right and wrong a relative, waht you think is wrong others may view as right and vice versa, its not a univecal conspet.


Is there anything wrong with ****, murder, child abuse? If so, why? Where do these objective moral laws come from, if not from God? How can there be a moral law without a moral lawgiver?
Morality is simply the output of socal influnce, due to computy build up, the moratly struture is then built up.
Some even think murder is morally the right thing to do, 9/11 for exsamples terroist were acting in the interests of ther god (god being there own creation IMO, so it would follow what they thoght it followed)
to them it was justfied, and was morraly right wereas not doing it would have been moraly wrong. Yet it is still murder.

There has been law an moralty millions of years before cristanty came around keep in mind also "/

[Eamonn]

wich post are u refering to?

anyway, the orgnal intetions of the bible can be seen via a histocal study, aka when working with proof and fact, the bible itself relise on belife, as some people seem pretty happy with ignorace, wich theefor allows it to be eblive how ever much of it is disproved
the post which says it excists for people afraid to die

[Forest-Law]

God - Old Testament
Jesus - New Testament
Holy Spirit - With us today....

^the trinity

they are all different forms of 'god' in christianity.... In fact, we could never know God's name unless the Creator himself told us. And he has done that in his own Book, the Holy Bible.

i'm guessing here becuase i've not looked into it but;

we call him god becuase this means almighty. since 'God' and the bible is written in hebrew, pronounciation and spelling of God's name will never be the same all over the world...

..i think...

and i know that there are lots of 'gods' (especially in greek mythology) but this means almighty...eg father. God the father, God the son, God the Holy spirit.

i'm a bit confused lol.

_____________________________________

CHRISTIANITY IS THIS....

what is behind the existence of our personalities, and our consciousness? If the answer is: 'Nothing but time, chance, matter and energy' then our personalities, our feelings, our thoughts and desires have no real ultimate value. (having no religion - atheism)

Theists - (those who believe in God) - believe that our personality and consciousness is derived from God's. We can think, feel, and choose because our creater designed us with those capacities. This means that people have value to life.

Christianity brings belief and hope to people's lives. They die knoing they are going to a better place. This gives some meaning to life.

[Eamonn]

Am I wrong or isn't that a sin to have an actual religion and not go to church? I swear I heard that somewhere...

(That I'm 50/50 on so I know I'm probably wrong) xP
This is not a sin if you still carry on to pray elsewhere

[EletricMornings]

i pray if i want something.I think gods angry with me at the mo.

[Mentor]

God - Old Testament
Jesus - New Testament
Holy Spirit - With us today....

^the trinity

they are all different forms of 'god' in christianity.... In fact, we could never know God's name unless the Creator himself told us. And he has done that in his own Book, the Holy Bible.

i'm guessing here becuase i've not looked into it but;

we call him god becuase this means almighty. since 'God' and the bible is written in hebrew, pronounciation and spelling of God's name will never be the same all over the world...


God is a word, not a person. for exsample someone may be emperor of somwhere, and be refered to as emperor, but there name is not empor, it is simply how the status is refered to. God in the cristan is what they call jehova or somthing like that as a mark of respect not his name, then again, ive met very few religios people who have any idea of even the most ovios parts of there own relisgions for some reason, as to say u are the first to sound as if they know what there talking about, anyway.



and i know that there are lots of 'gods' (especially in greek mythology) but this means almighty...eg father. God the father, God the son, God the Holy spirit.

i'm a bit confused lol.
Greeks had a polythistic religiosn, aka many gods for diffent aspects of existance, cristnaty follows a monothestic god, aka just one, athogh this is contradicted in teh bible where jesus is also god, yet hes a seperte entity as well. so its been changed, nothing to do with the bible, but on the record to refering to the fascits that make up god, jehoiva (god), jesus and the holy spirt etc, even thogh thers no mention of this in the bible "/


This is not a sin if you still carry on to pray elsewhere
if u look in to some of the removed testiments its actaly a sin to go in a church, have popes, prets and all that since where all equal under god, and no one should have a status above anyone else in connection to him, and gods house is everywhere not in a building, etc etc etc.

[Biseinen]

i pray if i want something.I think gods angry with me at the mo.

LOL!

[Forest-Law]

the debate between religions is useless in the end....

but all faiths bring stability to peoples lives. If the strongest of evidence was produced to show God does not exist, I would still believe becuase i would happily die knowing i'm going to a better place ~(or, which i believe - birth, life, death and rebirth).

[Mentor]

the debate between religions is useless in the end....

but all faiths bring stability to peoples lives. If the strongest of evidence was produced to show God does not exist, I would still believe becuase i would happily die knowing i'm going to a better place ~(or, which i believe - birth, life, death and rebirth).
I would kinda dissagree with that when u consider more wars have been forgt over the cristan religion alown than any other cause ever. thats that just one of millions of religions that have been around "/

[Biseinen]

What the... Stability?! You're kidding right? Wars, all olden times, sacrifices, torching, Punishment, etc...

Believing in something that has yet to be proven real, or to be there, is stability?

[ilovejordan]

Its something we'll never know.. Maybe if there is a god ( i hope there is ) He wnats it to remain a mystery?

[Forest-Law]

What the... Stability?! You're kidding right? Wars, all olden times, sacrifices, torching, Punishment, etc...

Believing in something that has yet to be proven real, or to be there, is stability?

only because people with strong strong beliefs are willing to fight for what they believe. i'll argue it but i'm not going to start fights and wars for what people choose to believe in.

stability in the sense that the catholic church provides;

- maritial stability
- family stabilty - catholic schools etc..promotes a happy family life
- social stabiltiy - promotes peace. (i don't believe in using physical force to actaulyl make someone belive in ur faith)
- emotional stabilty - in bad times millions of peopl always have someone to talk to - God. They are never alone. In christianity, u r never alone becuase God is always with u (metaphorical - u believe in him)

Not world stabilty. Just becuase some people are willing to fight for what they belive is right. Extremists such as Hitler have no real place in the world.

[Biseinen]

A queen from 1760 or something killed people that were of a different religion to what she wanted people to believe in, how can that be classed as stable? In my opinion, you're better off to have no religion because it only get's in the way of your life and how you should live it.

Sure, if 'god' came down and ya know, proved his existance then I would believe, maybe even pray. ;) but the fact to me is, he hasn't been proven, never. But, he hasn't not been proven.

[Mentor]

only because people with strong strong beliefs are willing to fight for what they believe. i'll argue it but i'm not going to start fights and wars for what people choose to believe in.

stability in the sense that the catholic church provides;

- maritial stability

I dont realy belive in the consept that much, but how does teh religion realy effect stablty in this instaution "/


- family stabilty - catholic schools etc..promotes a happy family life
- social stabiltiy - promotes peace. (i don't believe in using physical force to actaulyl make someone belive in ur faith)
- emotional stabilty - in bad times millions of peopl always have someone to talk to - God. They are never alone. In christianity, u r never alone becuase God is always with u (metaphorical - u believe in him)

- plenty of aithists also have perfactly happy family lifes, good education, etc etc etc, myself included, all chaflic school does diffently is wasit a bit more time on pointless activtys from an logical point of view

- many aithsts are also passafist, speackings statisticaly, more aithsts lean towars passthism than those following a religion, so itys the oppseit ther

- staticaly again, those follwoing religions, are actaly more lightly to suffer from emotanl problems such as depression, so that one holds no water ether "/



Not world stabilty. Just becuase some people are willing to fight for what they belive is right. Extremists such as Hitler have no real place in the world.
yes but my previos point was that right and wrong do not exists due to being relative "/

[Forest-Law]

okay, final post of the night for me . . .

Whether or not we take much heed to God and what He has to say separates you from an atheist and a thesist.. Hand in hand with theism (the belief that there is a God) is the FACT that there is a God, and this isn't based on our interpretation of data either. God exists independently of any interpretation or misinterpretation.

By no means I am a good catholic. I rarely go to church, I've sinned against christianity many times and I disagree with a lot of what is taught to me in my CATHOLIC school.

I don't agree how religion has been misinterpreted over time. Such as contraception is bad (which i disagree with) and adoption is wrong (i also disagree with).

I believe in the fundamentals of the catholic faith. I have a creater and when I die, I am not simply gone, something is going to happen to me. Hence, I believe something is going to happen to you.

[SkaKid77]

No. Religion has caused many problems in the world, in the middle east there have been wars raging for 50 years or so, in Ireland there is the same problem, and it is all about religion...also in the middle ages religion slowed down scientific research.

In my opinion Religion is all a way of making people (who choose to believe) to believe in a higher good, some reassurance, which is good, people should believe in something if it makes them feel better, but not force their view upon others.

Believe if you want (or if its because of your culture) but dont force others, like those Jehovah's Witnesses.

[-Soph-]

nope I dont believe it :D

im an atheist or however you spell it xD

[Mentor]

okay, final post of the night for me . . .

Whether or not we take much heed to God and what He has to say separates you from an atheist and a thesist.. Hand in hand with theism (the belief that there is a God) is the FACT that there is a God, and this isn't based on our interpretation of data either. God exists independently of any interpretation or misinterpretation.

By no means I am a good catholic. I rarely go to church, I've sinned against christianity many times and I disagree with a lot of what is taught to me in my CATHOLIC school.

I don't agree how religion has been misinterpreted over time. Such as contraception is bad (which i disagree with) and adoption is wrong (i also disagree with).

I believe in the fundamentals of the catholic faith. I have a creater and when I die, I am not simply gone, something is going to happen to me. Hence, I believe something is going to happen to you.

Ok, but i cannot accept your horrific misinteripation of the word "fact" for somthink to be fact, it must be proveable, beoned doubt, it must be knolage, nothing in any realigion is knolage, it is belife, wich is about as far from fact as u can get.
The Fact here is that it is imposible to prove or disporve aboulty the existance of a god at the currant time, but due to the nature of it, nothing in religon can be interpited as facts, scinace, is a conculsion based on fact, religion is belife based on a conculison.
So your use of the word fact in with the word got is complty propstrus and a gross misuse of the word.

You can belive what you like, but u cant know it.

[Steph]

Yeah, I believe in God. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Someone designed the world, everything is just so complex, human beings and the human mind is just the start. I think its amazing how the human body works, and I think in order for such a creation, someone must have created it.

[Mentor]

Yeah, I believe in God. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Someone designed the world, everything is just so complex, human beings and the human mind is just the start. I think its amazing how the human body works, and I think in order for such a creation, someone must have created it.
yes, but if we are to complex to have come by by chance, how did god, if hes stupposeoly vastly better than us??

Anyway it can be shown scintifcaly from start to finish how it all happened already, its only downful is much is still theartical due to us not yet being able to test all of that, its pretty ovios and simple how it happened, and much of it is proven complexity is simple, as shown by the "life" game, programmed to demostarte how complexty could come from simplicty with ease, google it up, if u wish.

[Steph]

yes, but if we are to complex to have come by by chance, how did god, if hes stupposeoly vastly better than us??

Anyway it can be shown scintifcaly from start to finish how it all happened already, its only downful is much is still theartical due to us not yet being able to test all of that, its pretty ovios and simple how it happened, and much of it is proven complexity is simple, as shown by the "life" game, programmed to demostarte how complexty could come from simplicty with ease, google it up, if u wish.
Yeah...cause I can answer that? Thats the question nobody can answer.

Anyways I don't need to know the details, I believe in God no matter what, until somebody proves me wrong with evidence. I believe "he" is some kind of spirit, who lives in everyone. Ok I sound like a sunday school teacher but heh.

[Mentor]

Yeah...cause I can answer that? Thats the question nobody can answer.

Anyways I don't need to know the details, I believe in God no matter what, until somebody proves me wrong with evidence. I believe "he" is some kind of spirit, who lives in everyone. Ok I sound like a sunday school teacher but heh.
What would u class as proof? wich particalar aspect would u want disproveing, i can prove the bibles thearys of eveoltin wrong, aka the world aint flat, and the sky aint water? and if as a few belive god wrote it, he cant be as onsiante as the clames lol, but then again, logic, has caused most of the churchs follwing to use the brains slightly and aknolage it was writen by man, and insted just follow the meanings rather than the litral teachings "/

Anyway theres quite a few bits we can prove, earth goes around the sun, not other wat around, we aint the center of the univce, or anything speacal, where an averge planet in the outwards spiral of a averge spiral galexy "/

[Steph]

What would u class as proof? wich particalar aspect would u want disproveing, i can prove the bibles thearys of eveoltin wrong, aka the world aint flat, and the sky aint water? and if as a few belive god wrote it, he cant be as onsiante as the clames lol, but then again, logic, has caused most of the churchs follwing to use the brains slightly and aknolage it was writen by man, and insted just follow the meanings rather than the litral teachings "/

Anyway theres quite a few bits we can prove, earth goes around the sun, not other wat around, we aint the center of the univce, or anything speacal, where an averge planet in the outwards spiral of a averge spiral galexy "/
ok I didnt understand half of that but if you mean the biblie isnt true, well most of the bible isnt mean to be true anyway I don't think.
I mean for e.g. we were only created on day 6, so how would anyone know what was created before day 6?

[Forest-Law]

Ok, but i cannot accept your horrific misinteripation of the word "fact" for somthink to be fact, it must be proveable, beoned doubt, it must be knolage, nothing in any realigion is knolage, it is belife, wich is about as far from fact as u can get.
The Fact here is that it is imposible to prove or disporve aboulty the existance of a god at the currant time, but due to the nature of it, nothing in religon can be interpited as facts, scinace, is a conculsion based on fact, religion is belife based on a conculison.
So your use of the word fact in with the word got is complty propstrus and a gross misuse of the word.

You can belive what you like, but u cant know it.

u seem to have misunderstood....

"hand in hand with thesism (believing in a God) is the FACT there is a God"


ie: all thesists believe that there is a God, no matter how time has changed and altered divine law.

it is an illogical conclusion to decide that the universe and every living thing in it was created by chance. There must be a creator, and in catholic belief, this creator is God. Religion is just one answer to the creation of the universe, one of which I happen to believe in, and many others, including yourself, do not. I am sure you have your own theory in how the universe began and what will happen to you, or your infinite self, when you die. Because as Albert once said:

All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom.


ok I didnt understand half of that but if you mean the biblie isnt true, well most of the bible isnt mean to be true anyway I don't think.
I mean for e.g. we were only created on day 6, so how would anyone know what was created before day 6?

i agree. i don't believe in most of the bible. most christians i know also share this view...even my RE teacher. I believe the bible to be moral lessons and set out moral examples to mankind.

eg:

Adam is granted freedom in the garden of eden but cannot eat a single apple. After eating this, Adam, being the first of human life, has engraved original sin (or potential sin) into every human being that ever lives there on.

Its is mostly moral lessons...but the bible is source of greater belief for many. so, if their happy :P :P

[Mentor]

ok I didnt understand half of that but if you mean the biblie isnt true, well most of the bible isnt mean to be true anyway I don't think.
I mean for e.g. we were only created on day 6, so how would anyone know what was created before day 6?

Due to carbon dateing, u can tell how old stuff is, due to its nuclar half lifes, for exsample, we can date stuff back Billions of years, hell theres even massive ruins of thriving sociteys way before god created the univece supposely, i mean the romans were even in full swing before when the bibled predicts life came around "/


"hand in hand with thesism (believing in a God) is the FACT there is a God"

ie: all thesists believe that there is a God, no matter how time has changed and altered divine law.

it is an illogical conclusion to decide that the universe and every living thing in it was created by chance. There must be a creator, and in catholic belief, this creator is God. Religion is just one answer to the creation of the universe, one of which I happen to believe in, and many others, including yourself, do not. I am sure you have your own theory in how the universe began and what will happen to you, or your infinite self, when you die. Because as Albert once said:
I dont understnad how u dont see the contradiction in that, look at it logicaly.

The unoivcer needs creation, becuse theres no way it cant.
there for god must have created.

Then u miss that if the univce Must have been created, so the same must apply to god, GOD must have been created. if god has always been of can skip this law, then the univcer could also, actaly more liklyly do the same??

there is no infite self, i am a incredibly complexted patten of eltrucal charges, in this planets most complexts system, the human brain. when it dies, i die.

Man is the only life form, that has the knolage that they have knolage, that is the essents of conioness


All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom.
I would dissagree, religion, art science server very diffent purpos, religion, is primary a way for quick answers and a easy way to power, wich can be seen throught history, due to its power to inforce ignorace and halt any real groth so a few stucjk up rich people can be richer in many cases.

sciance, is just understanding, humans by nature wich to undertsnad what, how and who we are, and strive for these answers, scinace, takes the eveidcance avible and draws possible conculsins for this, then tests to see if they hold true, and is therfore an ever evolving method, unlike religion wich is static, and unchaging, aka why religions all evenatly die, due to becomeing so out of touch.

art, is a form of exspression, and u can exspress anything u like in it, its entertainment, and is purly phisical "/

[Forest-Law]

I would dissagree, religion, art science server very diffent purpos, religion, is primary a way for quick answers and a easy way to power, wich can be seen throught history, due to its power to inforce ignorace and halt any real groth so a few stucjk up rich people can be richer in many cases.

sciance, is just understanding, humans by nature wich to undertsnad what, how and who we are, and strive for these answers, scinace, takes the eveidcance avible and draws possible conculsins for this, then tests to see if they hold true, and is therfore an ever evolving method, unlike religion wich is static, and unchaging, aka why religions all evenatly die, due to becomeing so out of touch.

art, is a form of exspression, and u can exspress anything u like in it, its entertainment, and is purly phisical "/

the quote u r disproving - All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom.

...is taken from the words of albert einstein. It is a fairly obvious conclusion put into context. Why evolve, when evolution is going to destroy us. Going by this planets timeline we are the smallest of fragments. In millions of years, our species will be gone and a new one begin. One day, mankind is going to create an exact replica of a human brain. Transferred into computers can and will create robot replicas of ourselves. And when this technology eventually displaces human inteligence, we would have destroyed ourselves. This is just one theory btw. Why does human life fly into space if not looking for explanations...to be all knowing....hence, FREEDOM.


I dont understnad how u dont see the contradiction in that, look at it logicaly.

we know nothing about the place where God comes from. It exceeds the human mind, so nothing is impossible there, becuase all this, in this universe makes no relevence, in a greater "world".

[Owen]

It sounds abit complex ;\
I always think that when you die thats it, your lifes just blank and you no longer excist...
But im christian cause thats just the way i was brought up ;\

[Forest-Law]

it really is complex.....(for those of you who are bored and want to read about timelessness (infinity))



Most people assume that the big bang theory indicates that the existence of the universe has a beginning, but as the renowned physicist Stephen Hawking recognizes, what we call time exists within a greater timelessness. Our universe is part of a permanent and unchanging landscape. To the surprise of many, all the greatest physicists such as Hawking, Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman, and David Bohm, all firmly concluded from their science work that the universe exists timelessly. Everything that we know in time is a product of timelessness. So then what exactly is the timeless universe like?

In timelessness each moment we experience is solidly real, static and unchanging. Each is like a pattern and each has existed forever. Surprisingly the whole of all patterns has a shape that can be modeled and understood. The shape of timelessness explains why time has a beginning and reveals that time has an end.

The original state of the big bang is often called Alpha, and in science we now know the universe is expanding directly toward the extreme state of absolute zero, which I call Omega. In timelessness, Alpha and Omega are ultimate boundaries beyond which no other possibilities exist. So they allow us to frame and see the structure of timelessness. All other patterns and possibilities exist trapped between Alpha and Omega, and the whole body can be visualized in a very simple way.

Today we model the set of all possible patterns with what is called the second law of thermodynamics. Presently we view possibilities with a model where there is generally an ever fewer measure of ordered states in the past, and an ever increasing measure of disordered states toward the future. Consequently, most scientists believe the universe is becoming increasingly disordered with time. This has long been the most disappointing lesson of science because it suggests the evolution of time has no purpose or meaning.

However, in 1998 we discovered the expansion of the universe is presently accelerating, and we are now slowly coming to terms with the fact that the universe is moving directly toward absolute zero. Here I explain that the absolute zero in our future is not disorder, it is a radical state of balance common to everything that exists, even the greater infinity of worlds. Zero is the great attractor for all time and change.

There is a trend, an organized flow to the evolving universe, but the second law is not correct in how it describes that pattern evolution. Patterns are transforming in a very specific way. Entropy, the unusable energy in the universe is ever increasing. But this is only because the universe is evolving away from one type of order toward a completely different type of order.

What we haven't realized in science yet is that there are two kinds of order in nature, one kind of order exists in our past, while another exists in our future, and the seeming trend toward disorder is more fully a trend toward the balance and wholeness of a cosmic equilibrium state.

Discovering that there are two kinds of order is perhaps the grandest step we can make toward understanding how nature works, revealing the governing dynamics of both the physical and the human universes. It even explains how our finite universe fits together with the big picture.

If the forms of this world die, which is more real,the me that dies or the me that's infinite? Can I trust my habitual mind or do I need to learn to look beneath those things?

everything is infinite.


THE SWEET IS NEVER AS SWEET, WITHOUT THE SOUR.

[Owen]

I still don't get how God was made...
Not like he was an ape like we were supposely and he flew away to heaven ;\

[Rebecca]

GOD I HATE GOD!!!!!!

[Forest-Law]

my friend believes this below. this will confuse u.

In a world beyond our intelligence (so here nothing is like it is on earth....no matter what i can think of, everything exceeds the depths of my imagination) someone or something is controlling everything we do. They are controlling our brains, SO, they make our decisions. They made me take the decision to write this message, someone to make this forum, discover the internet, power, ETC. SOOooo does it realy matter to exist or question our existence, if everything we think is already planned out -Already been made so we never actaully live. There is no point in existence or death becuase its all planned.

it took me a while to grasp this concept :rolleyes:

a guy i met on t'internet believes the matrix is based on real life

another believes we are a game (like The Sims) being played by a little child in a mirrored universe of this one

finally, and the strangest, was a guy who believed we are God's breakfast. When we look up we see a yolk (the sun) and if its cloudy...the egg. He explained someother stuff but it was faaaaaaaaar fetched beyond anything.


^^ so ... NO-ONE EVER AGREES. RELIGION IS A THEORY LIKE THE ONE ABOVE. SOME HAVE EVIDENCE WHICH PEOPLE BELIEVE, SOME ARE FABRICATIONS OF THE MODERN WORLD. LIFE MAKES NO SENSE AND NEVER WILL. THE END.

[Mentor]

the quote u r disproving - All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom.

...is taken from the words of albert einstein. It is a fairly obvious conclusion put into context. Why evolve, when evolution is going to destroy us. Going by this planets timeline we are the smallest of fragments. In millions of years, our species will be gone and a new one begin.

i dont think youve quite g****d how evioltion works, dipite some strange human obession we cannot stop the prossess, but anyway more persifcaly, Our rase will not be replaced. but it will change, we will evolve, but we will still be us, in many millions of use the human rase may not even resemble what it is today, yet it will still be the human race, and no one will have noticed the chanegs since there so gradual, onlky via comparson of large time scales would the evoltuonry changes be noticed, Its very unlikly humans will ever die out until our planet itself is swallowed by the sun, but we will change in ways our currant minds probaly cannot yet even contemplate "/ Athogh at technolgical rate, we will prbaly have assened our planet, or possibly even our currant form by the time the sun does **** earth up.




One day, mankind is going to create an exact replica of a human brain. Transferred into computers can and will create robot replicas of ourselves.

And when this technology eventually displaces human inteligence, we would have destroyed ourselves.
I dissagree, humans are machinces biolgical machines, a robot contsrution can never come close to our level of sufficticaion, we are limiting the exsppances of the currant storgae techolgys already, it is the biological computers that will come next, wich will living orgnaims used to prossess data. to be like the human, brain, by that time it may as well be a human brain. Biolgical computer systems are already under devolopment as well if your intereted.
Nature is slow but effective, us humans, are far slower, but also far more prone to massive error, so if we can ever beat nature, wich created us, and create something better, is still questonable, and keep in mind, nature is still working, we are still evoilving, the bugs are being worked out, via natral selection, even if we have limited its effects and slowed our own eveoltion down "/




This is just one theory btw. Why does human life fly into space if not looking for explanations...to be all knowing....hence, FREEDOM.


Where already in space, earth is in space? everything is in space, hence how the word works, space. Space is still a phisical exisnave anyway if thats what yoiur getting at and why may a human fly in to space, in enogh time, it could possible be such a simple thing as survival, athogh for the mean time exsplortion is the main reason. All your doing is makeing up reasons why god could exist. But you dont seem to get, there is no univce, or no other univcer, there was NOTHING, so no rules at all to start with, no other univce no this univce, so god would need to be created , or the other univer in wich "god" lives would have to be created, but anyone with sence can see its far easyer and simpler and therefor more likly to it just to be this univce to be created, and skip all the god ****.



we know nothing about the place where God comes from. It exceeds the human mind, so nothing is impossible there, becuase all this, in this universe makes no relevence, in a greater "world".
We know Nothing, about god, full stop. Theres nothing suggesting a greater world, at all, all it is stupid complications to a relativly simple univce when it comes down to it.
There is no "truth" to the bible (i use truth in the phiophical term) or even to religion in its own right "/


my friend believes this below. this will confuse u.

In a world beyond our intelligence (so here nothing is like it is on earth....no matter what i can think of, everything exceeds the depths of my imagination) someone or something is controlling everything we do. They are controlling our brains, SO, they make our decisions. They made me take the decision to write this message, someone to make this forum, discover the internet, power, ETC. SOOooo does it realy matter to exist or question our existence, if everything we think is already planned out -Already been made so we never actaully live. There is no point in existence or death becuase its all planned.
Thats self contrdicaty, since answers no questions, just trys to perswade people to be ignorat. if we were created by another world, who created the world who created us, if this world didnt need creating, how come ours did?

[Victimized]

Nope, load of ****!

[Forest-Law]

seriously, i've proven my point, people have proven theirs. i don't agree with theirs and they don't agree with mine. they think i'm wrong, and i think they're wrong. no-one wins.

^^ so ... NO-ONE EVER AGREES. RELIGION IS A THEORY LIKE THE ONE ABOVE. SOME HAVE EVIDENCE WHICH PEOPLE BELIEVE, SOME ARE FABRICATIONS OF THE MODERN WORLD. LIFE MAKES NO SENSE AND NEVER WILL. THE END.

(and some of u won't agree with this sooooo like the universe this thread is infinite)

[Biseinen]

You're one of the only person that backs up what you say. <3

+ rep

[Mentor]

seriously, i've proven my point, people have proven theirs. i don't agree with theirs and they don't agree with mine. they think i'm wrong, and i think they're wrong. no-one wins.

^^ so ... NO-ONE EVER AGREES. RELIGION IS A THEORY LIKE THE ONE ABOVE. SOME HAVE EVIDENCE WHICH PEOPLE BELIEVE, SOME ARE FABRICATIONS OF THE MODERN WORLD. LIFE MAKES NO SENSE AND NEVER WILL. THE END.

(and some of u won't agree with this sooooo like the universe this thread is infinite)
Religion is a theary, and so is sciences views, it is currantly immpoible to prove ether, yet sciancve has proved some of it, religion has only been disproved over time.

Scinace is conculsons based on the facts, while religion, is a conclusion on wich facts are based on.

[Biseinen]

And you. x) +rep

A quick conclusion; God has not been proven to exist or not exist, there for, there is no answer.

We only have signs that sway to either side... Like 'signs' that say he is real and 'with' us... And things like "Why do bad things happen to good people" If god protects us, means that he isn't there.

Can be argued for hours. >_<

[Mentor]

i enjoy debating so am quite happy to carry on for hour's :D

[Forest-Law]

yea, loved discussing this with u guys. it has made me think but not question


i dont think youve quite g****d how evioltion works, dipite some strange human obession we cannot stop the prossess, but anyway more persifcaly, Our rase will not be replaced. but it will change, we will evolve, but we will still be us, in many millions of use the human rase may not even resemble what it is today, yet it will still be the human race, and no one will have noticed the chanegs since there so gradual, onlky via comparson of large time scales would the evoltuonry changes be noticed, Its very unlikly humans will ever die out until our planet itself is swallowed by the sun, but we will change in ways our currant minds probaly cannot yet even contemplate "/ Athogh at technolgical rate, we will prbaly have assened our planet, or possibly even our currant form by the time the sun does **** earth up.

I dissagree, humans are machinces biolgical machines, a robot contsrution can never come close to our level of sufficticaion, we are limiting the exsppances of the currant storgae techolgys already, it is the biological computers that will come next, wich will living orgnaims used to prossess data. to be like the human, brain, by that time it may as well be a human brain. Biolgical computer systems are already under devolopment as well if your intereted.
Nature is slow but effective, us humans, are far slower, but also far more prone to massive error, so if we can ever beat nature, wich created us, and create something better, is still questonable, and keep in mind, nature is still working, we are still evoilving, the bugs are being worked out, via natral selection, even if we have limited its effects and slowed our own eveoltion down "/


Where already in space, earth is in space? everything is in space, hence how the word works, space. Space is still a phisical exisnave anyway if thats what yoiur getting at and why may a human fly in to space, in enogh time, it could possible be such a simple thing as survival, athogh for the mean time exsplortion is the main reason. All your doing is makeing up reasons why god could exist. But you dont seem to get, there is no univce, or no other univcer, there was NOTHING, so no rules at all to start with, no other univce no this univce, so god would need to be created , or the other univer in wich "god" lives would have to be created, but anyone with sence can see its far easyer and simpler and therefor more likly to it just to be this univce to be created, and skip all the god ****.


We know Nothing, about god, full stop. Theres nothing suggesting a greater world, at all, all it is stupid complications to a relativly simple univce when it comes down to it.
There is no "truth" to the bible (i use truth in the phiophical term) or even to religion in its own right "/


Thats self contrdicaty, since answers no questions, just trys to perswade people to be ignorat. if we were created by another world, who created the world who created us, if this world didnt need creating, how come ours did?

this will forever continue.

- the human race will eventually end. If something does not happen to the planet and nothing interfers with us. OUR interference and evolution will destroy us. The smae with any species.

- u are putting everything down to chance if "NOTHING was here". Its not logical. Something, whatever it was, i believe it was god, started it all. Infinity does not begin by itslef it either. In our 'universe we have absoloutly no idea and never will.

- how can nature create us. If everything was an accident everything i do is and shall be an accident. the belief in something that has created me is logical because it proves my existence. the catholic faith promotes it.

- in the case of the friends theory, hich i don't believe, it doesn't matter what u and i think for what he said. by saying this, no-one can disprove because he can return with "something planned u to say that". so he can wholefully believe that,

[Mentor]

this will forever continue.

- the human race will eventually end. If something does not happen to the planet and nothing interfers with us. OUR interference and evolution will destroy us. The smae with any species.

Interetsing use of the word will, how exsactly do u back that up thogh, theres no proof to that, hell theres not even inferance of that, yet there is for the oppersit, very few speacis have ever died out, take the ovios dinosaws, you know a turkey or chicken today, guess what they evolved from, there still the same speacise, they have just changed, yet if they had a conspet of themselve, they would still think the same of themselve.



- u are putting everything down to chance if "NOTHING was here". Its not logical. Something, whatever it was, i believe it was god, started it all. Infinity does not begin by itslef it either. In our 'univecr' we have absoloutly no idea and never will.

Infinty, does not beign =.= infinty is infinate, aka always has been alwsys, real, if god is infite, theres no consuse proth that the univce isnt, you cannot prove the univerce has not always been here forever "/

nothing is nothing, im gussing u cant accept it due to the fact u cannot contemplate it, since nothing is somthing the human brain cannot handle, we never exspenace nothing, even if we see nothing, we actaly done, our brain fills the space with the colour well techilcay shade, black, we just cannot conetmaplte it, yet Nothing does exist, no time, no any direction abosult nothing.
If god can do somthing theres just as much chance the universe itself could do it to



- how can nature create us. If everything was an accident everything i do is and shall be an accident. the belief in something that has created me is logical because it proves my existence. the catholic faith promotes it.

Nature is somthing and it did creat you, this is somthing wich is Known, abosulty proven, beoned doubt, if u dont know evoltion u must have faild alot of sciance classes.



- in the case of the friends theory, hich i don't believe, it doesn't matter what u and i think for what he said. by saying this, no-one can disprove because he can return with "something planned u to say that". so he can wholefully believe that,
No one can prove it ether, its a belife, and however stupid our belifes may be, people belive them, i prefer only to a blive and infer from the plausbale to make my predictions on my common life style, and the higher things such as our very exsiatnce.
And We cant disprove it Yet, but in future this may be able to, i would kinda feel sorry for the guy, i mean the theary does sound like a refeldction of servear dpresson, aka not aknolageing free will or any true choise making abilty, if u belived that, why do anything, since whatever u do what will happen will happnen anyway "/

[Axlilxbitxflirt]

I believe there is a God, because have you noticed?? I mean if anyone read the bible (this is not fake) In It it says there will be a major terrorist killing many, or somewhat like that. My mom's boss is very religious, and on 9/11 He pointed this out. I believe God knows our future, and everything that will be happining. As far as I'm concerned, When someone dies, Someone is born. I think that when I die, I will come back as something else. AND here's a little story about it. It might be a cowinidence (sp.) or it could be true.

My grandfather died last year, before Thanksgiving, 1 day before to be spacific. And my grandma and my aunt (who lived with my grandma and her little 1 year old boy, Aiden) had moved just a little down the street. There was a cat, a sweet little cat, that always hung around that house, he wouldn't leave and usually stayed outside. My grandma noticed it and let it in once and awhile at night to eat and drink water. Patti, my... uh.... I dunno?, had heard about this and thought that that was my grandpa, Jimmy. Because, He always hung around the house, and My little cousin Aiden, had been in his "mean" stage, throwing thing around and grabbing, and had hit that cat and pulled his fur trying to pet him (he's just a baby though). But, the cat never left, scratched at him, hissed, bit, or anything at Anyone! Then, the cat had babies. 6. She would let us pick up the cats, and everything. Never protective. If a cat meowed, she would just make sure it wasn't being hurt and everythiing. If she wanted one back, she wouldn't scratch you, she would just put her paw on your arm. But, because her baabies were being held so much, she took them and ran away.

Kida wierd ending, but I believed that that was my grandpa, and some of my family does too, even if it was a girl.

[ReInfected]

Only way to find out is to die and not suicide. I belive in God, Jesus and the Bible. But it just seems odd that Jesus was talking to god but how come we cant talk to god?

[Axlilxbitxflirt]

You Mean How come God can't talk to us? [I] Because we can talk to god.

[Biseinen]

I can talk to my igmaginary friend herbert, doesn't mean he exists.

[Mentor]

I believe there is a God, because have you noticed?? I mean if anyone read the bible (this is not fake) In It it says there will be a major terrorist killing many, or somewhat like that.

No it doesnt :rolleyes:

My mom's boss is very religious, and on 9/11 He pointed this out.

No it didnt, unless u mean the bible codes wich are BS, as its just chance based anomilysm u could find in any book with complexed enogh pattems, to prove this, i forget the name showed he could get the same level of predictions, sometiems btter of mobi ****.



I believe God knows our future, and everything that will be happining. As far as I'm concerned, When someone dies, Someone is born. I think that when I die, I will come back as something else.
Thats not what the christan faith belives, plus i can dirpove that easly, we have population increase and a varing population of the world, its not a constant one as that tehary would predict.



My grandfather died last year, before Thanksgiving, 1 day before to be spacific. And my grandma and my aunt (who lived with my grandma and her little 1 year old boy, Aiden) had moved just a little down the street. There was a cat, a sweet little cat, that always hung around that house, he wouldn't leave and usually stayed outside. My grandma noticed it and let it in once and awhile at night to eat and drink water. Patti, my... uh.... I dunno?, had heard about this and thought that that was my grandpa, Jimmy. Because, He always hung around the house, and My little cousin Aiden, had been in his "mean" stage, throwing thing around and grabbing, and had hit that cat and pulled his fur trying to pet him (he's just a baby though). But, the cat never left, scratched at him, hissed, bit, or anything at Anyone! Then, the cat had babies. 6. She would let us pick up the cats, and everything. Never protective. If a cat meowed, she would just make sure it wasn't being hurt and everythiing. If she wanted one back, she wouldn't scratch you, she would just put her paw on your arm. But, because her baabies were being held so much, she took them and ran away.

Thats coninsidence, do u have any idea how many stray cats there are around? Plus have you never seen a cat with children before, cats are quite friendly animals, i know plenty of cats whove been around childern, and never hissed, scratec or done anything to them, even if they may have had them being a bit rough with em, my old cat sid, for exsample was exsactly like that, and that wasnt some dead person who knew me :rolleyes:


Kida wierd ending, but I believed that that was my grandpa, and some of my family does too, even if it was a girl.
You take a random stray cat as proof of rencarntion =.= "/

[Forest-Law]

Interetsing use of the word will, how exsactly do u back that up thogh, theres no proof to that, hell theres not even inferance of that, yet there is for the oppersit, very few speacis have ever died out, take the ovios dinosaws, you know a turkey or chicken today, guess what they evolved from, there still the same speacise, they have just changed, yet if they had a conspet of themselve, they would still think the same of themselve.

and what has our planet done to the animals that once lived here. used them to evolve. what is next in this planets evolution??? this species cannot live foever (your take on the word will has been taken way out of context - i meant this thread....because everybody has different opinions which they believe)



Infinty, does not beign =.= infinty is infinate, aka always has been alwsys, real, if god is infite, theres no consuse proth that the univce isnt, you cannot prove the univerce has not always been here forever "/

nothing is nothing, im gussing u cant accept it due to the fact u cannot contemplate it, since nothing is somthing the human brain cannot handle, we never exspenace nothing, even if we see nothing, we actaly done, our brain fills the space with the colour well techilcay shade, black, we just cannot conetmaplte it, yet Nothing does exist, no time, no any direction abosult nothing.
If god can do somthing theres just as much chance the universe itself could do it to

if infinity has been around forver and always, thsi contradicts u saying evrything needs a creator. if infinty does not need a creator why does God? (and infinity does need a creator because something must have started it all, something must have triggered the universe to expand)



Nature is somthing and it did creat you, this is somthing wich is Known, abosulty proven, beoned doubt, if u dont know evoltion u must have faild alot of sciance classes.

so nature just one day creates a male and female human being and we're all one family? I understand the basics of evolution and much besides that. but why are we here and who put us here? To put it briefly, the structure of the solar system was specially designed for mankind to live. BY WHO OR WHAT??



No one can prove it ether, its a belife, and however stupid our belifes may be, people belive them, i prefer only to a blive and infer from the plausbale to make my predictions on my common life style, and the higher things such as our very exsiatnce.
And We cant disprove it Yet, but in future this may be able to, i would kinda feel sorry for the guy, i mean the theary does sound like a refeldction of servear dpresson, aka not aknolageing free will or any true choise making abilty, if u belived that, why do anything, since whatever u do what will happen will happnen anyway "/

yea, ur right, he is a bit mental but he no longer needs answers because he can answer everything. he is really weird. it is similar to christianity becuase it gives some meaning to peoples lives.

PEOPLE - BRIEFLY, HOW, IN YOUR THEOLOGICAL AND PHILOSOPHICAL OPINION, DID THE UNIVERSE BEGIN??

[Forest-Law]

sorry if this is double post :(

these are the 3 main belief systems;

Creation science: God created the universe. All of the various species of plants and animals that currently exist (and that once existed) on earth are descendants of the original life forms that God created during the single week of creation. This is the most popular belief system.
Theistic evolution view: The universe is about 14 billion years old. The earth's crust developed about 4.5 billion years ago. God created the first cell, and then used evolution as a tool to guide the development of each new species. The process culminated in human beings.
Scientific view: Beliefs are identical to the theistic view, except that God is assumed to have played no part in the processes. Scientists assume evolution was driven by blind, purely natural forces.

[Mentor]

and what has our planet done to the animals that once lived here. used them to evolve. what is next in this planets evolution??? this species cannot live foever (your take on the word will has been taken way out of context - i meant this thread....because everybody has different opinions which they believe)
Evioltion, does not destory and make a new speacise, teh changes are indectable over short preriods, everything will continue to eveolve and change for verraly forever, the only way to whipe out a speacise, such as humans, would be complet simatinuls desctrution, aka blowing up the entire planet, in to small little rocks maybe, short of that where to wide spread to get rid of compolty, if climet changes, we Will eveolve to sute, as will ever other animal, strains of them will die, but more steps in the speacses will still be soon to follow, for its survaval to take place.



if infinity has been around forver and always, thsi contradicts u saying evrything needs a creator. if infinty does not need a creator why does God? (and infinity does need a creator because something must have started it all, something must have triggered the universe to expand)

No i didnt say evething needs a creator, you actaly said that as a reason for god.
If god is needed to create the univce that means everything would need a creator for that to work. But as i dont eblive in god, and belive the univce can come from nothing itself, then the whole ivtaly part isnt even needed.

The univces size is said to be infite, this is true, yet not true thogh, the univer is growing, so it could not be infite, But it is, since its exsplkaning at the maximum speed it is possible to travel at, so nothing being able to exseed it, its therefor infitly big due to hwoever fast you move the end wil always be out of reach etc.





so nature just one day creates a male and female human being and we're all one family? I understand the basics of evolution and much besides that. but why are we here and who put us here?


:rolleyes: nature didnt just randomly creat us, its a few billiuon years of eveoltion here, with enogh time and enogh matter, evently the right cheimcals will mix and there will be life, life will the spread, starung of with millions of indpenet cells, wich evenatly take on simbitic presnts to survive, and eventaly form larger single organims, repcodition at this stage is asexual, aka no male of femail. This comes around as another way of fast adpation and better surval chances, so this chance connection thrived and spread, becomeing ever more complexted, eveolving to survive what ever the obsical maybe, until us. Im going to hope u at least get natraol selctoiopn on this one


To put it briefly, the structure of the solar system was specially designed for mankind to live. BY WHO OR WHAT??

No it wasnt, it was just one of trillions and trillons of other planets on other stars, this place was capable of suproing life so life evolved, if it hadent been, it wouldnt and we woulnt be here, but somewhere else where it had, would probly be asking this same question anyway, but it did happen here, hence this question is asked here.
No plan, no considnce erher, we evolved where we could, logical realy.

[Forest-Law]

Evioltion, does not destory and make a new speacise, teh changes are indectable over short preriods, everything will continue to eveolve and change for verraly forever, the only way to whipe out a speacise, such as humans, would be complet simatinuls desctrution, aka blowing up the entire planet, in to small little rocks maybe, short of that where to wide spread to get rid of compolty, if climet changes, we Will eveolve to sute, as will ever other animal, strains of them will die, but more steps in the speacses will still be soon to follow, for its survaval to take place.


No i didnt say evething needs a creator, you actaly said that as a reason for god.
If god is needed to create the univce that means everything would need a creator for that to work. But as i dont eblive in god, and belive the univce can come from nothing itself, then the whole ivtaly part isnt even needed.

The univces size is said to be infite, this is true, yet not true thogh, the univer is growing, so it could not be infite, But it is, since its exsplkaning at the maximum speed it is possible to travel at, so nothing being able to exseed it, its therefor infitly big due to hwoever fast you move the end wil always be out of reach etc.




:rolleyes: nature didnt just randomly creat us, its a few billiuon years of eveoltion here, with enogh time and enogh matter, evently the right cheimcals will mix and there will be life, life will the spread, starung of with millions of indpenet cells, wich evenatly take on simbitic presnts to survive, and eventaly form larger single organims, repcodition at this stage is asexual, aka no male of femail. This comes around as another way of fast adpation and better surval chances, so this chance connection thrived and spread, becomeing ever more complexted, eveolving to survive what ever the obsical maybe, until us. Im going to hope u at least get natraol selctoiopn on this one

No it wasnt, it was just one of trillions and trillons of other planets on other stars, this place was capable of suproing life so life evolved, if it hadent been, it wouldnt and we woulnt be here, but somewhere else where it had, would probly be asking this same question anyway, but it did happen here, hence this question is asked here.
No plan, no considnce erher, we evolved where we could, logical realy.

so, in reply to your belief of how life began...

The chemicals and whatnot create living things over billions of years. Therefore, life was a) EITHER INTENDED OR b) AN ACCIDENT:

a) if it was intended...who intended it? It makes no sense for every living thing to be put down to accidents. Something must have intended human life to be born and evolutionise.

b) If it was an accident, human life has no real purpose in the universe. There is no meaning to life and everyhting people are doing and where and how we are living - even doen to the point of destroying the planet (global warming etc) - ITS ALL ACCIDENT! It's illogical.

and in reply to your belief in EVOLUTION:

I tink in 100 or 200 years, we wil be messing with our own genome to prodce desired effects such as heightend intelligence and slowed ageing. (Though I shudder to think of the misuse the same technlogy will be put to).
In 10000 years, we would not even recognize us, we will be so advanced compared to what we have today. It would be like a caveman stumbling into modern chicago (worse actually, due to the exponential nature of growth and development). Natural genetic shifting will be the least of the sources of change, barely noticeable above intentonal genetic change and technology.

Human Life will eventually end...perhaps in a billion years or more or less...

*btw, i'm watching Cannibal:The Musical on the HorrorChannel at 11pm. Forgive my failure to reply if that comes to that.

[Mentor]

so, in reply to your belief of how life began...

The chemicals and whatnot create living things over billions of years. Therefore, life was a) EITHER INTENDED OR b) AN ACCIDENT:

a) if it was intended...who intended it? It makes no sense for every living thing to be put down to accidents. Something must have intended human life to be born and evolutionise.

b) If it was an accident, human life has no real purpose in the universe. There is no meaning to life and everyhting people are doing and where and how we are living - even doen to the point of destroying the planet (global warming etc) - ITS ALL ACCIDENT! It's illogical.

There is no meaing of life, or speacal purpos, thats just for people who are to big headed to accept in teh big skeam of things where pretty insignifant. But there is meaing to life, as in meaning is what we asign to it, its not like where living agaist our wishes, being foced to live, for a reason, i like many people quite like being alive and enjoy it "/

Accidnt is just your way of diffeing the ovios chance, chance played a big role, but it wasnt realy chance, it was stastical, with a univce of "infinte" size its immposble for there not to be a planet just right for life to evenolce, chances are there are many planets far better suted to life even than ours.

Intention would require a persons want, if god is supposedly imprsonal, as u suaggest by meantion the other exsiatnce stuff, that would mean he coulnt not intend anything, nothing needs to be inteneded, for somthing to happen, the majorty of cause and effect arnt intended, people dont intend to trip over, yet every so often they do dont they.



and in reply to your belief in EVOLUTION:

I tink in 100 or 200 years, we wil be messing with our own genome to prodce desired effects such as heightend intelligence and slowed ageing. (Though I shudder to think of the misuse the same technlogy will be put to).
In 10000 years, we would not even recognize us, we will be so advanced compared to what we have today. It would be like a caveman stumbling into modern chicago (worse actually, due to the exponential nature of growth and development). Natural genetic shifting will be the least of the sources of change, barely noticeable above intentonal genetic change and technology.

Human Life will eventually end...perhaps in a billion years or more or less...

We can already mess with are genome if we wanted, its realy just conquring the "morals" of certain parts of the population, wich have stoped it, wich then again is equaly moraly wrong, people suffer debiting illnesses, and die, when it woiuld be in realty incedibly easy to save them if they were alownd, in china it is and works succefuly, such as regreowng spinal tissue to cure parlised people, clone organs, so that people would not need to shorten there own lifes as donaters to save some elses, would mean the problems with organ regetion would be none exsitant, would be cheep and easy, with organs genticaly matching in abundace.
Yet we still do not, then again, progress is being made with the alloal of stem cell reaserch.

Also a cave man child, would be equaly as integent as you if it had teh same education as you, meandefiles even could equal todays mental capasitys "/ Are brain power hasnt realy changed in quite some time due to it being at more aless the pincal of effectivness, if it were any bigger it would be to slow, any smaller wount be able to giuve same cognative powers, meaing are brains would need to eveolve more aless a complty new proccessing system in order to function much beoned ours, wich would be more aless creating an enteirly diffent level of perseption "/

so im doubtful change would be that huge, the amount of knolage and undertsaning would be greatly incresed due to deveolpments in sciance, and other arias, plus due to the fact we will most likly have blown ourslef up a few times, we should probaly be phiscaly more resistant, and ahev a diffent scocal climent, as well as qavoding any realy major setbacks have started conqiquing the solar system.

im aslo doubtful of any large scale huamn infuced genrit modifcaions, as im doubtful it would be wanted, since it would take the fun out of things like sprots if people were genitcaly made to be able to run faster, and would most likly be treated like performace inhencaing drugs, the genitic modifation techolagys would be far more likly be used for desise screaning and immunty implants in childern, aka whiping out all desigs wihc sounds pretty good to me "/

[RedStratocas]

It isnt that I dont believe, its that I dont know. There is no solid proof either way that there is a god or not. No one can say they know, because they dont. It will always remain a mystery.

Although, if I had to guess, I would say no. Because if there is a god, why would he let bad things happen? If he doesnt want people to kill each other, why doesnt he stop them himself? He is all powerful, why cant he? And on that, why would he care? Why would we care if one person didnt go to a certain place on sunday to praise him?

Anyway, a few things I have noticed about religion:

"Religion is a source of comfort and strength in a world torn apart by religion"- John Stewart. It was ment in a humorous way, but that quote, it does make you think.

How come when we talk to god, it is called praying, but if god talks to us, its insanity? It makes no sence. If it isnt unbelievable that there is an all powerful being no one has ever seen before, why isnt it unbelievable that person talked to someone?

Why are religious people, a lot of catholics, so concerned about gay marrage? It says NOWHERE in the bible that gay marrage is wrong. All the time they use saying that, could be used for helping the poor, which is mentioned a million times in the bible.

Some religions believe that only a certain number of people can fit in, or go to heaven. If this is true, why would they want people to convert? Wouldnt they want a better chance for themselves to go to heaven?

[JoeyK.]

I personally do, because i cannot see how life could exist without a god... I mean, life had to be created somehow...

[Moose]

No, I don't.

[Flunky-Sunset!]

Title of the thread caught my eye. (By the way, I'm not sure putting God in quotes worked very effectively... we all know what you're talking about, without the quotes.)

Anyway, I just had a few points to pick:


simplest of human senses - right and wrong - does there really exist "right" and "wrong"? Is there anything wrong with ****, murder, child abuse? If so, why? Where do these objective moral laws come from, if not from God? How can there be a moral law without a moral lawgiver?

These objective moral laws come from society. I.e., it wasn't right for women to wear dresses until later on during the 20th century:
"A century ago, prescribed sartorial propriety for women meant torsos had to be trussed up in corsets and bare flesh kept to an absolute minimum.
The undeniable biological fact that women had legs, and were able to do anything other than keep them firmly together, had to be kept secret at all costs. Even horse riding was carried out sideways-on, legs together and heavily swathed.
Times have moved on, and the sight of a woman in jeans or shorts is no longer motivation for panic and rioting on your average city street."

"Times have moved on." If you get what I'm saying, as time goes on, more things become acceptable, more things become unacceptable. People have developed a perception of right and wrong, based on society as well as their own judgement. They don't need a God to tell them whether it's right or not to murder a baby. If God told them what was right and wrong, I don't think we'd've gone to war quite so many times, or there wouldn't be so much murder. It's because people's perceptions of right and wrong differ on matters, that we have war, murder, and argumentation (not unlike this thread). I just believe you're contradicting yourself here, saying God provided the morals of right and wrong, whereas people commit murder. Surely he would've made some pretty fatal mistakes, don't you think?


Yeah, I believe in God. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Someone designed the world, everything is just so complex, human beings and the human mind is just the start. I think its amazing how the human body works, and I think in order for such a creation, someone must have created it.

The human body has had million of years to develop. Give it some credit. xD


it is an illogical conclusion to decide that the universe and every living thing in it was created by chance. There must be a creator, and in catholic belief, this creator is God. Religion is just one answer to the creation of the universe, one of which I happen to believe in, and many others, including yourself, do not. I am sure you have your own theory in how the universe began and what will happen to you, or your infinite self, when you die.

Illogical? I'm not quite sure I can agree with you. Is it entirely logical that a God created this world in less than a week?


In a world beyond our intelligence (so here nothing is like it is on earth....no matter what i can think of, everything exceeds the depths of my imagination) someone or something is controlling everything we do. They are controlling our brains, SO, they make our decisions. They made me take the decision to write this message, someone to make this forum, discover the internet, power, ETC. SOOooo does it realy matter to exist or question our existence, if everything we think is already planned out -Already been made so we never actaully live. There is no point in existence or death becuase its all planned.

I think this is what people refer to as fate? xD


We know Nothing, about god, full stop. Theres nothing suggesting a greater world, at all, all it is stupid complications to a relativly simple univce when it comes down to it.
There is no "truth" to the bible (i use truth in the phiophical term) or even to religion in its own right

Well, we must know something about God, because we have the Bible. Whether it is correct, or incorrect, it's still telling us about God, right? (And accounting for the belief of there being no God, at least we know something about the theory of God.)
Prove there's no truth. Prove there's no religion. This is why this argument doesn't get resolved, you can't prove there's a God, and you can't prove there is no God. (Sure, maybe because of all the people adamant there is one. If it was merely another theory that a scientist came up with, it would get dismissed pretty quickly on the account of having no proof. But it's not.)
But while God is worshipped by so many, you actually have to prove there's no proof, or no existence of God.


b) If it was an accident, human life has no real purpose in the universe. There is no meaning to life and everyhting people are doing and where and how we are living - even doen to the point of destroying the planet (global warming etc) - ITS ALL ACCIDENT! It's illogical

If it was an accident, it was a damn lucky one.


There is no meaing of life, or speacal purpos, thats just for people who are to big headed to accept in teh big skeam of things where pretty insignifant. But there is meaing to life, as in meaning is what we asign to it, its not like where living agaist our wishes, being foced to live, for a reason, i like many people quite like being alive and enjoy it "/

Well said. ^_^;

I think that's all I had to say...

[Forest-Law]

Title of the thread caught my eye. (By the way, I'm not sure putting God in quotes worked very effectively... we all know what you're talking about, without the quotes.)

Anyway, I just had a few points to pick:



These objective moral laws come from society. I.e., it wasn't right for women to wear dresses until later on during the 20th century:
"A century ago, prescribed sartorial propriety for women meant torsos had to be trussed up in corsets and bare flesh kept to an absolute minimum.
The undeniable biological fact that women had legs, and were able to do anything other than keep them firmly together, had to be kept secret at all costs. Even horse riding was carried out sideways-on, legs together and heavily swathed.
Times have moved on, and the sight of a woman in jeans or shorts is no longer motivation for panic and rioting on your average city street."

"Times have moved on." If you get what I'm saying, as time goes on, more things become acceptable, more things become unacceptable. People have developed a perception of right and wrong, based on society as well as their own judgement. They don't need a God to tell them whether it's right or not to murder a baby. If God told them what was right and wrong, I don't think we'd've gone to war quite so many times, or there wouldn't be so much murder. It's because people's perceptions of right and wrong differ on matters, that we have war, murder, and argumentation (not unlike this thread). I just believe you're contradicting yourself here, saying God provided the morals of right and wrong, whereas people commit murder. Surely he would've made some pretty fatal mistakes, don't you think?

I disagree. God wants us to love Him, but without free will, we could not sincerly love Him. We canot be forced to love someone. If God creted us without free wil, we would be living machines and not made in his image and likenes. God permits moral evil to the extent that he gives us free will. Thanks to us, the moral evil in the world is the result of our choice.

and as for moral laws; you, as an atheist, believe that laws have been created has' times move on '. That society is continually changing and is able to make decisions as to what is acceptable and unacceptable. AS A CATHOLIC, I believe that these are HUMAN LAWS, so divine and moral laws must have come from GOD. The basis of which is The Ten Commandments.



Illogical? I'm not quite sure I can agree with you. Is it entirely logical that a God created this world in less than a week?

As I've said in this thread many times I think the Holy Bible is not intended for literal interpretation. I believe that God created or at least intended for the creation of this world.




I think this is what people refer to as fate? xD

:D thats what i told him.....lets forget him now :8 Everybody has their own theory to everything. One of which, Christianity, is w.i.d.e.l.y accepted.




If it was an accident, it was a damn lucky one.

exactly....

this is my favourite quote about this topic:


"If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e., of Materialism and Astronomy - are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It's like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset."

-- C.S. Lewis



Well said. ^_^; (towards meaning of life, there is no purpose etc)

this proves my point. if you believe that human life was created by partly chance, or fully chance.....or anything in which you don't believe that there is a greater power...there is no greater meaning to life other than live it.


There is no meaing of life, or speacal purpos, thats just for people who are to big headed to accept in teh big skeam of things where pretty insignifant. But there is meaing to life, as in meaning is what we asign to it, its not like where living agaist our wishes, being foced to live, for a reason, i like many people quite like being alive and enjoy it "/

o i enjoy life and like being alive and arguably it is an effective evolutionary strategy to believe there is a meaning for life - just as it is an equally effective strategy to believe in life after death. there are many 'meanings of life' in christianity (eg live this life good, and you'll live the next one better) others, atheists included, beleieve the meaning of life is this; to make a constructive contrbution to the evolution of humanity, in order to maximize our longterm chancs of survival (immortality). In essence, the 'meaning of life' is to incraese evolutionary fitnes.



I think that's all I had to say...

[Steph]

It isnt that I dont believe, its that I dont know. There is no solid proof either way that there is a god or not. No one can say they know, because they dont. It will always remain a mystery.

Although, if I had to guess, I would say no. Because if there is a god, why would he let bad things happen? If he doesnt want people to kill each other, why doesnt he stop them himself? He is all powerful, why cant he? And on that, why would he care? Why would we care if one person didnt go to a certain place on sunday to praise him?

Anyway, a few things I have noticed about religion:

"Religion is a source of comfort and strength in a world torn apart by religion"- John Stewart. It was ment in a humorous way, but that quote, it does make you think.

How come when we talk to god, it is called praying, but if god talks to us, its insanity? It makes no sence. If it isnt unbelievable that there is an all powerful being no one has ever seen before, why isnt it unbelievable that person talked to someone?

Why are religious people, a lot of catholics, so concerned about gay marrage? It says NOWHERE in the bible that gay marrage is wrong. All the time they use saying that, could be used for helping the poor, which is mentioned a million times in the bible.

Some religions believe that only a certain number of people can fit in, or go to heaven. If this is true, why would they want people to convert? Wouldnt they want a better chance for themselves to go to heaven?

But would you not think God would want it to be that way? For instance, take the Adam & Eve story, say its true, they made the wrong choice by taking the apple, they wanted knowledge like God, it was curiosity and jealousy that made them take it. And people nowadays make the wrong choices, like murder, they get punished for it, just like Adam & Eve got punished.

But I know what your saying is on a whole different level, but if its true God doesn't want to help us. We gotta help ourselves.

[Not-Thrilled]

...by forgetting about religion. It'll never happen, as only intelligent people can see that religion was created long ago to contain people and keep them obedient.
E.g. "If you steal, you'll go to hell and be burnt alive."
Unfortunately, it's still believed today as it's an easy thing to believe in and is seen as a refuge for some people. It offers easy answers to very difficult questions, perfect for simpletons.
Person A: How did the earth come abouts?
Person B: God did it duh.
Person A: How did we come abouts?
Person B: God made us duh.
Person A: How does God look after all the other billions and billions planets in the universe then?
Person B: Ugh...umm...hmm...shutup before I get God on you.

It gets pretty laborious these sorts of theads to be honest. You get people who think they know everything saying "god iz gay", you get silly religious people going on about some god and you get the reasonably intelligent people going on about how it's impossible. Just one never ending circle of conflicting ideas. Does it ever get anywhere? No. Do you ever change someone's opinion on religion? No. Is it pointless? Yes.

[Mentor]

Ok this is gona be one hell of a big reply.


It isnt that I dont believe, its that I dont know. There is no solid proof either way that there is a god or not. No one can say they know, because they dont. It will always remain a mystery.

Although, if I had to guess, I would say no. Because if there is a god, why would he let bad things happen? If he doesnt want people to kill each other, why doesnt he stop them himself? He is all powerful, why cant he? And on that, why would he care? Why would we care if one person didnt go to a certain place on sunday to praise him?

Anyway, a few things I have noticed about religion:

"Religion is a source of comfort and strength in a world torn apart by religion"- John Stewart. It was ment in a humorous way, but that quote, it does make you think.

How come when we talk to god, it is called praying, but if god talks to us, its insanity? It makes no sence. If it isnt unbelievable that there is an all powerful being no one has ever seen before, why isnt it unbelievable that person talked to someone?

Why are religious people, a lot of catholics, so concerned about gay marrage? It says NOWHERE in the bible that gay marrage is wrong. All the time they use saying that, could be used for helping the poor, which is mentioned a million times in the bible.

Some religions believe that only a certain number of people can fit in, or go to heaven. If this is true, why would they want people to convert? Wouldnt they want a better chance for themselves to go to heaven?
There is truth in what you say, in the older less edited version of the bible jesus actaly hung around with gay people, as theres were at the time scoitys outcasts just like the leppers and all that. Then again many cristsans dont even take the main messages of the bible and deniy what it even says.
Aka Jesus Was a ******* aka was born out of wedlock, wich is half the point of the story, as by the curant standards that was wrong (changed to be wrong in the editings in the new load aslo) as well as the point jesus was supposed to be a practising jewish etc etc "/



I personally do, because i cannot see how life could exist without a god... I mean, life had to be created somehow...
Well its quite easy if u do you reaserch, enogh time, enogh matter to work with within the laws of phiscics, its statsicaly immppoessible life didnt come around evenetaly, and hey presto herer we are after a few billion years of evoiltion from bactreaia to us.



These objective moral laws come from society. I.e., it wasn't right for women to wear dresses until later on during the 20th century:
"A century ago, prescribed sartorial propriety for women meant torsos had to be trussed up in corsets and bare flesh kept to an absolute minimum.
The undeniable biological fact that women had legs, and were able to do anything other than keep them firmly together, had to be kept secret at all costs. Even horse riding was carried out sideways-on, legs together and heavily swathed.
Times have moved on, and the sight of a woman in jeans or shorts is no longer motivation for panic and rioting on your average city street."

"Times have moved on." If you get what I'm saying, as time goes on, more things become acceptable, more things become unacceptable. People have developed a perception of right and wrong, based on society as well as their own judgement. They don't need a God to tell them whether it's right or not to murder a baby. If God told them what was right and wrong, I don't think we'd've gone to war quite so many times, or there wouldn't be so much murder. It's because people's perceptions of right and wrong differ on matters, that we have war, murder, and argumentation (not unlike this thread). I just believe you're contradicting yourself here, saying God provided the morals of right and wrong, whereas people commit murder. Surely he would've made some pretty fatal mistakes, don't you think?

I agree with that, morality is based on teh scocal climet, and not just over time preidos, over location as well, even traveling around erupoe you would notice some major diffences in the socal outlooks, wich in tern shape morality, some of these points used to ad humar to the hsbc adverts for exsample.



The human body has had million of years to develop. Give it some credit. xD

Humans had millions, think of the billions of years it took to get from the bacteria to the humans, that all went in to the making also, and then the billions of the statical chnaces of the bactrea coming around, and multiply that my the near infinate amount of places this would be happening, and its hard to image how life / humans could not have eveolved.



Illogical? I'm not quite sure I can agree with you. Is it entirely logical that a God created this world in less than a week?

good point since, if u have a conspet of god at all as all powerful, the time preriods would make no diffence to how long it should take somthing all powerful to achive this. even if the evidance shows to a massive degree it oviosly didnt.



Well, we must know something about God, because we have the Bible. Whether it is correct, or incorrect, it's still telling us about God, right?

Very incorrect, To Know somthing would mean it had to be true, wether empircal, ratonal or otherwize, as it is immposble to exsperince any effects of this, or run teh conspet mentaly as proof, It is there for absoulty immpsobe to Know. We know there is a bible, but we do not know if what it says is compleat Bs or true. so therefor we do not KNOW.


(And accounting for the belief of there being no God, at least we know something about the theory of God.)
Prove there's no truth. Prove there's no religion. This is why this argument doesn't get resolved, you can't prove there's a God, and you can't prove there is no God. (Sure, maybe because of all the people adamant there is one. If it was merely another theory that a scientist came up with, it would get dismissed pretty quickly on the account of having no proof. But it's not.)
But while God is worshipped by so many, you actually have to prove there's no proof, or no existence of God.

Proveing theres no proof is quite easy, since the bible is in no way shape of form proofs, unless you take from another thread pokmon as proveing jiggle puffed is real?



If it was an accident, it was a damn lucky one.

AN accdincent it isnt real, its probalty, theres so much time, so much space, so much matter, so much movement, that its more aless immposble for it not to have happened, and an accidnt is a mistake, there was nothing to make a mistake, so it was chance, and probalty that braogh us around.



I disagree. God wants us to love Him, but without free will, we could not sincerly love Him. We canot be forced to love someone. If God creted us without free wil, we would be living machines and not made in his image and likenes. God permits moral evil to the extent that he gives us free will. Thanks to us, the moral evil in the world is the result of our choice.
If its our choise, why does he send people for hell for doing it, when hes the one being more evil, casuing all the erthequakes and sunamis? or would it be simpler to conclude there just isnt a god.



and as for moral laws; you, as an atheist, believe that laws have been created has' times move on '. That society is continually changing and is able to make decisions as to what is acceptable and unacceptable. AS A CATHOLIC, I believe that these are HUMAN LAWS, so divine and moral laws must have come from GOD. The basis of which is The Ten Commandments.

So how come somethings that are unacceptablke in the 10 commandments are perfectaly acceptable moraly to the majorty of people today, and in many cultures thrwoight history its been diffent also, murder for exsample, isnt that what happened in the roman coluseums? that was perfectly moraly acceptable to them enevr there less "/
Murder, as in burning witches by Cristaians, way to follow your own teachings, God must have messed up inseting them in to his followers brains.



As I've said in this thread many times I think the Holy Bible is not intended for literal interpretation. I believe that God created or at least intended for the creation of this world.
Theres nothing to stop u belive that yet, as theres nothing to stop anyone else belive otherwize, we are still a long way of knowing before, but the evidenace strongly favors the no god when u look, so im sticking with that.




:D thats what i told him.....lets forget him now :8 Everybody has their own theory to everything. One of which, Christianity, is w.i.d.e.l.y accepted.

Most views are also widely accepted, by diffent groups of people, and if u check teh figures, aithism is souring up there in erupoe, and cristanty is plumeting down.





this is my favourite quote about this topic:

"If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e., of Materialism and Astronomy - are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It's like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset."


-- C.S. Lewis


Thats i kind od inpertion, as There was no inetinion, so no mistake. Probalyty and chance played the roll. roll a dice you get someone from 1 to 6, your not going to randomly get a 7. Why becuse of the way the dice is formed. The unoiverce is also formed to conform to a base set of laws, eleteromagntism garvety etc etc.
Within this fraim the chance came abouit, trhe chnace of getting rolling a 6 with a dice, with a 100 billion trys, is nearly deffinty your going to get a 6, so getting life, wich is a far higher level of chance, but an equalty higher level of chances to get it in.



this proves my point. if you believe that human life was created by partly chance, or fully chance.....or anything in which you don't believe that there is a greater power...there is no greater meaning to life other than live it.

We asign our own meaing, the human speacis main meanings of life are simply to gain knolage, and to survive, wich si what sepertaes us, as we being the only speacies on our plente to have the knolage we have knolage, is the reason we seek the knolage to start with.



o i enjoy life and like being alive and arguably it is an effective evolutionary strategy to believe there is a meaning for life - just as it is an equally effective strategy to believe in life after death. there are many 'meanings of life' in christianity (eg live this life good, and you'll live the next one better) others, atheists included, beleieve the meaning of life is this; to make a constructive contrbution to the evolution of humanity, in order to maximize our longterm chancs of survival (immortality). In essence, the 'meaning of life' is to incraese evolutionary fitnes.
How would that be a everilty stratergy, evoltion is not a consiose event? we dont make choises in it, its happening indepentantly, due to the varitaion within the speacise. How does there ether beinge life after death? or just dieing, have any effect on our lifes? if we belive in life after death, wasit our lifes praying and no doing any real good? thats a waste of a life to me, if we belive in no life after death, so make the best of this one, and help others to have better ones in term, then u have doen somthing with your life, and its less of a waster, wich ever it could be life after death or just the death?



But would you not think God would want it to be that way? For instance, take the Adam & Eve story, say its true, they made the wrong choice by taking the apple, they wanted knowledge like God, it was curiosity and jealousy that made them take it. And people nowadays make the wrong choices, like murder, they get punished for it, just like Adam & Eve got punished.
Gods supposed to be ominsiant, meaing he already knew what we would do before we did it, so why did he need to test us to start with? Plus he made us that way, knowing the way he made us ment we would, why is he punishing us, for whats oviosly his mistake?


But I know what your saying is on a whole different level, but if its true God doesn't want to help us. We gotta help ourselves.
If hes on a whole diffent level, he would not have sent jesus down, he would not cair if u loved him or not, he would not cair if u prayed or not, etc etc, wich goes complty agaist the personal god who talks to indevicuals descipbled in the bible?


...by forgetting about religion. It'll never happen, as only intelligent people can see that religion was created long ago to contain people and keep them obedient.
E.g. "If you steal, you'll go to hell and be burnt alive."
Unfortunately, it's still believed today as it's an easy thing to believe in and is seen as a refuge for some people. It offers easy answers to very difficult questions, perfect for simpletons.
Person A: How did the earth come abouts?
Person B: God did it duh.
Person A: How did we come abouts?
Person B: God made us duh.
Person A: How does God look after all the other billions and billions planets in the universe then?
Person B: Ugh...umm...hmm...shutup before I get God on you.

It gets pretty laborious these sorts of theads to be honest. You get people who think they know everything saying "god iz gay", you get silly religious people going on about some god and you get the reasonably intelligent people going on about how it's impossible. Just one never ending circle of conflicting ideas. Does it ever get anywhere? No. Do you ever change someone's opinion on religion? No. Is it pointless? Yes.
I strongly dissagre with the last bit, since scinace is based on the evidance, if the evindance suddley shows there is a god after all, anyone who actaly belives in sciance, would follow whats shown by the evidcance, if not there would be no point to the science to strat with, scinece moves, and changes so it is correct, it eveolves. only religion stays static and unchanging, and therefore evenatly dies?

[Not-Thrilled]

I strongly dissagre with the last bit, since scinace is based on the evidance, if the evindance suddley shows there is a god after all, anyone who actaly belives in sciance, would follow whats shown by the evidcance, if not there would be no point to the science to strat with, scinece moves, and changes so it is correct, it eveolves. only religion stays static and unchanging, and therefore evenatly dies?

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that debating god/religion never changes anyone's view on it. People usually have very strong views on religion and it would take something quite big to change them. Like evidence, as you said. It will never be proved though, either way, whether god exists or doesn't.
I disagree with your last points. Religion doesn't necessarily "stay static" especially recently as we've seen with September 11th. Not that views are changing or anything, just their beliefs are evolving and being adapted to the modern world. Also, religion will never die unfortunately, as I said. It's too big.
(Good post btw, nice to see.)

[RedStratocas]

Im not arguing either way, but really, no one can know for sure. I dont THINK that there is, but if there is, okay, Ill believe it, but for now, I have no idea.

But I hate the religions that say that other religions are wrong. I think buhdism is great, because they respect other religions and beliefs, and I think thats because they are smart enough to say, they dont know if there is one that is right, or one that is wrong ect.

Anyway, yeh mentor, bible has been revised. It used to say a bunch of things it doesnt today. Its because as time passed, there was a scientific explenation for things that jesus or god did, so they took it out, so it didnt look like a lie. I think as time goes on, there will be more and more evidence proven against that there is a god, because in the past 2000 years, there hasent been any evidence for there being a god, only against. "Miracles" dont count.

[Mentor]

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that debating god/religion never changes anyone's view on it. People usually have very strong views on religion and it would take something quite big to change them. Like evidence, as you said. It will never be proved though, either way, whether god exists or doesn't.
I disagree with your last points. Religion doesn't necessarily "stay static" especially recently as we've seen with September 11th. Not that views are changing or anything, just their beliefs are evolving and being adapted to the modern world. Also, religion will never die unfortunately, as I said. It's too big.
(Good post btw, nice to see.)
oh ok. But i dont get your last part about religion changes? ive witness no changes in any belife systems, nore am aware of them, other than certain realigos bodys punlicly condeming terrisum, every one of the religions already supposedly condemed that and vilence before that, "/

Also i dissgaree that religion will never die, since a only a few 100 years ago, and aithist would have been just as rediculus to many, there was no over option, but the amount of non belives are at stedy increce. So on the premis there is no major desatsers wich will set back our cultural and technilgical ideals by a huge amount, the ever growing scinetific knaolge will evnatly wipe out any and all forms of religios belifes, athogh i agree it would take a lage exsapnce of time for such a cultaral change to come about complty


Im not arguing either way, but really, no one can know for sure. I dont THINK that there is, but if there is, okay, Ill believe it, but for now, I have no idea.

But I hate the religions that say that other religions are wrong. I think buhdism is great, because they respect other religions and beliefs, and I think thats because they are smart enough to say, they dont know if there is one that is right, or one that is wrong ect.

Anyway, yeh mentor, bible has been revised. It used to say a bunch of things it doesnt today. Its because as time passed, there was a scientific explenation for things that jesus or god did, so they took it out, so it didnt look like a lie. I think as time goes on, there will be more and more evidence proven against that there is a god, because in the past 2000 years, there hasent been any evidence for there being a god, only against. "Miracles" dont count.
As you said no one can know, but i still think thats a yet, i do think evenatly it will be solave able once and for all.
I also agree with buddism, its the only religion that has quotes that i quite like and agree with in it, along with its attaituds and outlooks, athogh in considertion buddism, Doesnt nessarly have a God to it, it is actaly a aithist religion in terms, as that budda has never been seen as a god, but more as a teacher, or great exsample etc.

Also the last bit is true, the bible was upated regualy to make up for any major incsostnacys when say somthing was proven to be complty propstrus, alot of the reason they exsicused many of the orgnal people who tranlated it in to english, as that was avible to everyone meaning they could not cover up any major changes made in it. Wich is why the religion has stoped be edited now and has started lossing its point and become alot of bs in many arias "/

[zak-x]

WOW great debating carry on =]

[Forest-Law]

I'll end my posting in this thread, (for a while at least), with this;

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.

[Flunky-Sunset!]

Very incorrect, To Know somthing would mean it had to be true, wether empircal, ratonal or otherwize, as it is immposble to exsperince any effects of this, or run teh conspet mentaly as proof, It is there for absoulty immpsobe to Know. We know there is a bible, but we do not know if what it says is compleat Bs or true. so therefor we do not KNOW.

Ahh, I think you missed my point. That, if God did happen to exist (bear with me, here), and the Bible happened to be true, then you would've known. (A long shot, but still one possibilty, right?) But, however, we know about the theory of God. If it's all a story, then we know much about this "story" from the Bible. I'm not sure if I can explain it in another way, actually.


Proveing theres no proof is quite easy, since the bible is in no way shape of form proofs, unless you take from another thread pokmon as proveing jiggle puffed is real?

I meant that, though there's no proof that God himself exists, so many people are believers that you can't convince them all. The atheist would, therefore, have to present clear proof that God did not exist, to sway opinions. Having no proof that God exists just isn't enough for most people. ;P


But I hate the religions that say that other religions are wrong.
Same. It's just hypocrisy when religions start using retorts of "Your religion is wrong!"
"No, yours is!"
Etc.


...by forgetting about religion. It'll never happen, as only intelligent people can see that religion was created long ago to contain people and keep them obedient.
E.g. "If you steal, you'll go to hell and be burnt alive."
Unfortunately, it's still believed today as it's an easy thing to believe in and is seen as a refuge for some people. It offers easy answers to very difficult questions, perfect for simpletons.
Person A: How did the earth come abouts?
Person B: God did it duh.
Person A: How did we come abouts?
Person B: God made us duh.
Person A: How does God look after all the other billions and billions planets in the universe then?
Person B: Ugh...umm...hmm...shutup before I get God on you.

It gets pretty laborious these sorts of theads to be honest. You get people who think they know everything saying "god iz gay", you get silly religious people going on about some god and you get the reasonably intelligent people going on about how it's impossible. Just one never ending circle of conflicting ideas. Does it ever get anywhere? No. Do you ever change someone's opinion on religion? No. Is it pointless? Yes.

I see you have a very fixed opinion already. By the way; "you get silly religious people going on about some god and you get the reasonably intelligent people going on about how it's impossible. Just one never ending circle of conflicting ideas."
Most arguments are "one never ending circle of conflicting ideas." So if someone has a belief, they're not intelligent? (I think you may have the wrong word anyway. Intelligence, in a simple definition, is the potential to acquire knowledge. Maybe "reasonably knowledgeable" would have been better wording. But I'm getting off track... o.o).

"It gets pretty laborious these sorts of theads to be honest. You get people who think they know everything saying "god iz gay""
Not once did I see someone say "god iz gay". o_o; Whether it's a generalisation or not... it's pretty faulty, huh? Anyway, if the threads are too laborious for you, don't read them. I know it's a simple answer, "don't read it." etc. But, honestly, I hate it when people complain when they have the ability to, oh yes, not click on the link. Maybe you were curious? If you were, why did you only post to tell us that religious people are "silly" and that the only intelligent ones are the ones saying God doesn't exist? I see a narrow minded person before me. However, I'm not one to judge.
Maybe I misunderstood your post? It came across as a very (as I've said already) fixed opinion.

Does it ever get anywhere? Well, there's quite a few pages. I'd say it's gotten somewhere. It's made you post, hasn't it?
Do you ever change someone's opinion on religion? Who cares if you don't? The point is to explain to people why you believe/don't believe in something.
Is it pointless? Not if someone learns something.

"by forgetting about religion. It'll never happen, as only intelligent people can see that religion was created long ago to contain people and keep them obedient. "

I agree that it may have been created to retain obedience. (Though there's the intelligence thing again...)

[-sFusion-]

Woah, your first post was so long I didnt actually read it, and there are so many posts, I didnt read any of them either, so forgive me if I repeat someone's point.

Anywayz, Yea i believe in "God" just because I know I've asked for stuff to him and I in someone get a response of either yea, no, or later. Weird I know.

And, I just think someone created the universe, cuz its so perfectly position so we can live here.

And I'm not a firm believer in luck, so without a God, we're super lucky that we are on the perfect planet and alive.

Plus, if there isn't a God, there isnt an "afterlife" and that means once we die, we're dead, so what's the point of life? To live 70 years and die? I'd rather we live 70 years and then go to heaven or something.

Just my thoughts on the issue..

[Forest-Law]

Woah, your first post was so long I didnt actually read it, and there are so many posts, I didnt read any of them either, so forgive me if I repeat someone's point.

Anywayz, Yea i believe in "God" just because I know I've asked for stuff to him and I in someone get a response of either yea, no, or later. Weird I know.

And, I just think someone created the universe, cuz its so perfectly position so we can live here.

And I'm not a firm believer in luck, so without a God, we're super lucky that we are on the perfect planet and alive.

Plus, if there isn't a God, there isnt an "afterlife" and that means once we die, we're dead, so what's the point of life? To live 70 years and die? I'd rather we live 70 years and then go to heaven or something.

Just my thoughts on the issue..

those pages u didn't read is basically me and a few others defending what u just sed. If your interested, I suggest you read through them. There are has been some great input from everyone.

[Ellis.]

Well call me naive but personally, I do believe in God. Think about it; if we humans really evolved from bacteria billions of years ago, who exactly made that small bacteria? Nothing can just appear from nowhere, something had to create it. Really though, no one has a proof that there is or isn't a God. We all have to believe in something, whether if it's believe in God, believing in Angels, believing in Ghosts, Hell, Satan, etc. etc. Not only that, but if you die, is there an afterlife? Is it a place where you walk on clouds and everything is made out of Gold? Or do you just see pitch black for all eternity? Or do you believe in re-incarnation and that you are born into another animal/human/object? Everyone has a certain belief, everyone needs to believe in something. If none of us believed in anything? What would really be the point of life? Would we just sit there? Do everything that we do every single day until we die and see eternal darkness? I might not be looking at this properly, but if you come to think about it, all signs point out that there is some sort of God out there. Like I said before, if we did evolve? Who created the first stage of evolution?

[Mentor]

Ahh, I think you missed my point. That, if God did happen to exist (bear with me, here), and the Bible happened to be true, then you would've known. (A long shot, but still one possibilty, right?) But, however, we know about the theory of God. If it's all a story, then we know much about this "story" from the Bible. I'm not sure if I can explain it in another way, actually.

True, but its currantly immpsoble to know if what they think is known is true, so therefore they cannot know ?



I meant that, though there's no proof that God himself exists, so many people are believers that you can't convince them all. The atheist would, therefore, have to present clear proof that God did not exist, to sway opinions. Having no proof that God exists just isn't enough for most people. ;P

Im talking over a long time period, over wich religion would have died out, as in you say u cant stop everyone, but entire religions have come and gone in the past, it woulnt be so much a case of convinsing people, becuse by the time it comes around those who u may need to of convinced would be long gone "/



And, I just think someone created the universe, cuz its so perfectly position so we can live here.

And I'm not a firm believer in luck, so without a God, we're super lucky that we are on the perfect planet and alive.

Luck had nothing to do with it? and its not in a perfect position at all? Its a perfect position for us? but thats becuse us being in that position already, just evolved to survive in it. like life would anywhere else if possible eveolve to sute its own enviment.
The amount of planets, and time mean its more aless immposibel for life not to evolve somwherte, this galexy came toeghter like this, so we eveolved here, we could just have easly eveolved else where "/ and called that earth and the mikly way etc.



Plus, if there isn't a God, there isnt an "afterlife" and that means once we die, we're dead, so what's the point of life? To live 70 years and die? I'd rather we live 70 years and then go to heaven or something.
So u think the point of life is just to die and go to hevern? so whats the point of the asfter life, to sit around and do nothing in that for all eternity? why do u so much think we need meaing? where the only specise around with a conspet of meaing to start, the base meaning for life is just survive and reporduce in realty "/


Well call me naive but personally, I do believe in God. Think about it; if we humans really evolved from bacteria billions of years ago, who exactly made that small bacteria? Nothing can just appear from nowhere, something had to create it.

another exsmple of pure contradiction.

plus bactira resulted from statsical probablty of haveing billions of cehemicas mixing on a rock hertling threw space we call earth.

Anyway if everything needs somthing to creat it, and nothing can come from no where, god also needed createing, and that creater also needed creationg etc etc. wich means it would just be simpler for the univce itself to have just come from no where anyhow, and skip all the god part.


Really though, no one has a proof that there is or isn't a God. We all have to believe in something, whether if it's believe in God, believing in Angels, believing in Ghosts, Hell, Satan, etc. etc. Not only that, but if you die, is there an afterlife? Is it a place where you walk on clouds and everything is made out of Gold? Or do you just see pitch black for all eternity? Or do you believe in re-incarnation and that you areborn into another animal/human/object?

see black for eternity? what an od conspet? do u sleep and see blank for 10 hours?
i at least dont, same as when u die, youd be dead, not seeing anything, not aware, just dead.


Everyone has a certain belief, everyone needs to believe in something. If none of us believed in anything?
some have belifes made on facts, some have belifes based on a 2000 year old book that make little sence, wich one sounds more valid?


What would really be the point of life? Would we just sit there? Do everything that we do every single day until we die and see eternal darkness? I might not be looking at this properly, but if you come to think about it, all signs point out that there is some sort of God out there. Like I said before, if we did evolve? Who created the first stage of evolution?
I dont think therte is a speacal point to life, other than what we personaly assign, i enjoy life so live for that personaly "/ and i dont get the darkeness for ever thing, threw the conspet i mentioned in last rambling bit "/

The first step of evoltion started with a startical chance "/.

[Flunky-Sunset!]

Or do you just see pitch black for all eternity?

When you die your eyes die with you.

(Plus, just a note... why is everyone fixated on the fact that only we evolved? We have an ozone layer. (Preventing us from being poisoned, burnt, etc.))

[Steven]

I AGREE WITH THAT FUNKY SUNSET PERSON SHE IS REALLY INTELLIGENT.

[Flunky-Sunset!]

I AGREE WITH THAT FUNKY SUNSET PERSON SHE IS REALLY INTELLIGENT.

Ew, spelt my name wrong. xDD And, aha, i'm not.

[Ellis.]

When you die your eyes die with you.

(Plus, just a note... why is everyone fixated on the fact that only we evolved? We have an ozone layer. (Preventing us from being poisoned, burnt, etc.))

For the eyes part, Gah this is hard to explain, umm okay. Say you have no eyes, like literally no eyes. You dont see anything right? But if you get someone else's eyes through deceased donors and you are able to see again. It's like that. Like you're seeing through your conscience. Back to the part when you literally have no eyes, all you see is pitch black (I think). Will you see that (pitch black) for all eternity?

[Steven]

Ew, spelt my name wrong. xDD And, aha, i'm not.
Oh I'm sorry dear. I meant "Flunky-Sunset!" btw what does your name mean m'dear?

[SkaKid77]

Nothing can just appear from nowhere, something had to create it.

Except God?

The main reason i dont believe in God is because according to religion everything ends at god, but then they argue that the universe cant have an end, something has to be beyond that..

But if that is true, then something has to be beyond God?


if we humans really evolved from bacteria billions of years ago, who exactly made that small bacteria?


No-one has to make something else, reactions happen all the time, but we dont see it. The bacteria could have formed from particles in space and reacted with something else eventually evolving into a single cell, then onto multiple celled organisms.

I dont believe in god, but i think once we die our spirits go somewhere, possibly into an after life that lasts an eternity, different people believe different things

And also if God created the universe and there are millions of solar systems and other planets, if God created Earth to have life in 7 days, then what about all of the other planets?

Also i believe in the bible it says God created the sun and moon for light and dark...but not that he made the Earth orbit the sun or the other planets or the stars.

If you think logically about the Bible you will find that the "stories" in there are either extremely vague or terribly flawed.

[Ellis.]

Except God?

The main reason i dont believe in God is because according to religion everything ends at god, but then they argue that the universe cant have an end, something has to be beyond that..

But if that is true, then something has to be beyond God?

Okay, I have to admit, you did get me there. I was just thinking back to my post and you posted what I was thinking =P Overall though, I have to say that no one really knows for sure, whether there is a God or not. No one can find enough, if any proof on whether some sort of God exists.

[Mentor]

For the eyes part, Gah this is hard to explain, umm okay. Say you have no eyes, like literally no eyes. You dont see anything right? But if you get someone else's eyes through deceased donors and you are able to see again. It's like that. Like you're seeing through your conscience. Back to the part when you literally have no eyes, all you see is pitch black (I think). Will you see that (pitch black) for all eternity?
U woulnt see anything thogh, no seeing would be envolved at all "/ Did u read my last anoghy, when u go to sleep. do see see balck for 10 hours? no your uncoise, u see nothing as your not seeing, as your brains not proccesing inputs. like when u are dead 4 exsmaple

[Flunky-Sunset!]

For the eyes part, Gah this is hard to explain, umm okay. Say you have no eyes, like literally no eyes. You dont see anything right? But if you get someone else's eyes through deceased donors and you are able to see again. It's like that. Like you're seeing through your conscience. Back to the part when you literally have no eyes, all you see is pitch black (I think). Will you see that (pitch black) for all eternity?

I get what you mean about the sight. Surely God is meant to release your soul, so you wouldn't be there for all eternity? For if your body is dead, and your soul is dead, what's left?

(Unless you mean some kind of sight attached to your soul? For without your mind, consciousness would not exist. However, if true, your soul may.)

("Surely God is meant to release your soul, so you wouldn't be there for all eternity? For if your body is dead, and your soul is dead, what's left?" I'm not sure I made sense there. I meant, the only way you would (supposedly) "see", after death, would be through your last mental resource; your soul. So, if God is meant to release your soul, you would have the "pitch black". But if the soul does not exist, then you are dead. And you do not see. You are simply gone.)

[Mentor]

i personly dont belive in haveing a sole and all that, im just a load of eletrical impinces and chemical patternst in my brain wich have resulted in my conisness awarness "/ when my body dies, my consiose self dies as well

[Ellis.]

Surely God is meant to release your soul, so you wouldn't be there for all eternity? For if your body is dead, and your soul is dead, what's left?

Coming back to whether a God exists or not. When people think of afterlife, some (mostly Christians) think of it as Heaven where God, angels, etc. resides. But if there were no God, there would be no heaven right? But some people do believe in an afterlife but no God so yea . . :s

[Mentor]

Coming back to whether a God exists or not. When people think of afterlife, some (mostly Christians) think of it as Heaven where God, angels, etc. resides. But if there were no God, there would be no heaven right? But some people do believe in an afterlife but no God so yea . . :s
some may belive in rencarnation, some may belive in life as a higher form etc "/ athogh then again i still belive we just die personaly

[Flunky-Sunset!]

Coming back to whether a God exists or not. When people think of afterlife, some (mostly Christians) think of it as Heaven where God, angels, etc. resides. But if there were no God, there would be no heaven right? But some people do believe in an afterlife but no God so yea . . :s

Yeah, they think of it as heaven. But my idea of it, is that if God doesn't exist, nor does your soul. I'm just saying, without your soul, you're dead. With it... then it's pretty sketchy. ;] (The people who believe in an afterlife but no God may be referring to a different religion?)


i personly dont belive in haveing a sole and all that, im just a load of eletrical impinces and chemical patternst in my brain wich have resulted in my conisness awarness "/ when my body dies, my consiose self dies as well

I agree. Haha...

[Steven]

Coming back to whether a God exists or not. When people think of afterlife, some (mostly Christians) think of it as Heaven where God, angels, etc. resides. But if there were no God, there would be no heaven right? But some people do believe in an afterlife but no God so yea . . :s
People have different views on Heaven.
Afterall you dont have to believe in God to believe in Heaven.
Every person sees Heaven differently

[Ellis.]

People have different views on Heaven.
Afterall you dont have to believe in God to believe in Heaven.
Every person sees Heaven differently

Yea, that's what I meant on my last sentence even though I kinda trailed off . . =P

[Flunky-Sunset!]

People have different views on Heaven.
Afterall you dont have to believe in God to believe in Heaven.
Every person sees Heaven differently

Some don't see it at all. ^_^

[Pilgrim-Soul]

I do like to think that there is a God, and an afterlife. I do not go to church, but I believe there is something, or someone, that is watching over us.
I Aggre With That. But i dont believe in all the stupid made up storys in the bible.

[Flunky-Sunset!]

I Aggre With That. But i dont believe in all the stupid made up storys in the bible.

I think one (among others) of the "stupid made up storys" is about God existing? ;P

[dannyboymed]

I don't believe in anything.. we live, we die. There's no meaning of life and no God.

It's like believing in monsters, or ghosts.

[Flunky-Sunset!]

I don't believe in anything.. we live, we die. There's no meaning of life and no God.

It's like believing in monsters, or ghosts.

Ohh, I don't know, I think there's a meaning of life. Not God related, no. But there's definitely one. Everyone has their own, really. (Not to sound corny...)

[Mentor]

Ohh, I don't know, I think there's a meaning of life. Not God related, no. But there's definitely one. Everyone has their own, really. (Not to sound corny...)
I kinda of agree with that, we asign our own meaing to are lifes :D

[dannyboymed]

That was a weird speech, but maybe there is a meaning of life. Nothing to do with 'God' or anything.

[Flunky-Sunset!]

That was a weird speech, but maybe there is a meaning of life. Nothing to do with 'God' or anything.

Well, it may've been weird, but good you understood, anyhow. xD
And, yeah, Mentor, you said it better than me. ;P

[RedStratocas]

Woah, your first post was so long I didnt actually read it, and there are so many posts, I didnt read any of them either, so forgive me if I repeat someone's point.

Anywayz, Yea i believe in "God" just because I know I've asked for stuff to him and I in someone get a response of either yea, no, or later. Weird I know.

And, I just think someone created the universe, cuz its so perfectly position so we can live here.

And I'm not a firm believer in luck, so without a God, we're super lucky that we are on the perfect planet and alive.

Plus, if there isn't a God, there isnt an "afterlife" and that means once we die, we're dead, so what's the point of life? To live 70 years and die? I'd rather we live 70 years and then go to heaven or something.

Just my thoughts on the issue..

I respect your belief in god, but there are a few things that I would like to say to that:

There is life on the planet, because of the fact it is perfectly positioned. There are millions of planets, one is bound to have good enough resorces for life. We might not be "luckey" the other planets might be "unluckey"

And this isnt the perfect planet. If there was water on other planets, we would be able to live there. Like mars, if there was water, it wouldnt be that cold, there would be trees, there would be atmosphere ect. There is water here, because of how the earth was made. During the big bang, the earth was one of the fastest moving planets, and farther from the other two fast moving planets (venus and mercury). The speed of it cooled the planet, the CO2 and atmosphere was able to create snow, which eventually turned into water, once the earth heated up. Life was made from there which is hard to explain.

And the meaning of life is always debated, but if there is no god, there is none. We are here because what other possible option is there? We were made, now what? So we live...

And with heaven, I dont really understand. Why make heaven an afterlife? Why not make life heaven? Why does there have to be a before thing to heaven? Why cant we go straight there?

[Forest-Law]

Some Christians believe;
That you spend your life on Earth preparing yourself (as best you can) for death. They don't see death as a scary, negative experience, but birth into a bliss filled eternal life with God. They believe that this is something you have to consciously choose or not during your life on earth.

[Mentor]

Some Christians believe;
That you spend your life on Earth preparing yourself (as best you can) for death. They don't see death as a scary, negative experience, but birth into a bliss filled eternal life with God. They believe that this is something you have to consciously choose or not during your life on earth.
i dont see death as a negative or scary exspiernce? just an end. Plus gods onsianet he should already know the outcome? so why should he need 2 test u "/

[GommeInc]

For all we know there is an after life, not connected with God in anyway nor a Heaven or Hell but a Dream in which we are connected with other lost souls...

[Oli4444]

I Think there is an afterlife but i dont think there is a god 2 reasons

1. Its a myth
2. I Dont know i just needed to make 2 reasons
anyway i do think there was a jesus or w/e his name was :d

[Forest-Law]

i dont see death as a negative or scary exspiernce? just an end. Plus gods onsianet he should already know the outcome? so why should he need 2 test u "/

if u see it just as an end then that is negative compared to what the catholic belief provides

[Flunky-Sunset!]

if u see it just as an end then that is negative compared to what the catholic belief provides

It's not negative unless it has a negative effect upon the person saying it. I think this is your opinion of whether it's negative or not...

[Forest-Law]

I Think there is an afterlife but i dont think there is a god 2 reasons

1. Its a myth
2. I Dont know i just needed to make 2 reasons
anyway i do think there was a jesus or w/e his name was :d

how can u believe in Jesus and not God??


It's not negative unless it has a negative effect upon the person saying it. I think this is your opinion of whether it's negative or not...


negative in contrast to what the catholic belief provides. not my opinion.

[Flunky-Sunset!]

negative in contrast to what the catholic belief provides. not my opinion.

Ahh, but it's your opinion that the Catholic belief is more negative. It would be far more depressing, for me, to live eternally, and forever.

[Mentor]

Ahh, but it's your opinion that the Catholic belief is more negative. It would be far more depressing, for me, to live eternally, and forever.
I agree, plus i dont get how the possibly of roting in hell for all enternty as well is not negative "/

[Forest-Law]

Ahh, but it's your opinion that the Catholic belief is more negative. It would be far more depressing, for me, to live eternally, and forever.

okay then. although i 100% disagree with that - i would much rather believe in a heaven, an afterlife or, in my opinion, rebirth - than live knowing that when i die, that is the end of me. i would no longer exist in the universe and if I have not done anything towards mankinds evolution, there was not much point of me being here.

[Flunky-Sunset!]

okay then. although i 100% disagree with that - i would much rather believe in a heaven, an afterlife or, in my opinion, rebirth - than live knowing that when i die, that is the end of me. i would no longer exist in the universe and if I have not done anything towards mankinds evolution, there was not much point of me being here.

Now we're just back to the point of the meaning of life. And if there's no meaning of life - to you - unless you do something to help mankind's evolution, do it, and then maybe you can reconsider why you're living? I don't see anything wrong with ceasing to exist, myself. You wouldn't even be aware. I mean, you would be dead...

[Forest-Law]

Now we're just back to the point of the meaning of life. And if there's no meaning of life - to you - unless you do something to help mankind's evolution, do it, and then maybe you can reconsider why you're living? I don't see anything wrong with ceasing to exist, myself. You wouldn't even be aware. I mean, you would be dead...

exactly. someone meantioned it was a neverending cirlce of conflicting ideas. i agree with them. and of course i believe in a meaning of life.

anyway, avoiding this argument about evolution and meaning, lets go back to the start. Creation. Catholics believe that the craetor is God. How do you percieve the universe began if not believing in a greater power?

[:BlueTails]

God Is Real.

[Pilgrim-Soul]

God Is Real.
How do you know? Have you met him/her?

[Forest-Law]

God Is Real.

yes. it could be argued forever (metaphorically speaking). But, I'm reaching the point where I'm thinking, whats the point of arguing if not to convert.

Ironically, now I'm going to watch Hellraiser. Good Night.

[Flunky-Sunset!]

exactly. someone meantioned it was a neverending cirlce of conflicting ideas. i agree with them. and of course i believe in a meaning of life.

anyway, avoiding this argument about evolution and meaning, lets go back to the start. Creation. Catholics believe that the craetor is God. How do you percieve the universe began if not believing in a greater power?

The universe? Well, that all began with the Big Bang. But I'm sure you're familiar with that, and the process that followed. I simply can't believe that a greater power had anything to do with it. Why, if God created the world in under a week, is there evidence of creation/existence millions of years ago, before humans came to be? Surely, if he made humans in that same week he created the world, there shouldn't have been living creatures beforehand? If God exists, can you explain this?

[Forest-Law]

The universe? Well, that all began with the Big Bang. But I'm sure you're familiar with that, and the process that followed. I simply can't believe that a greater power had anything to do with it. Why, if God created the world in under a week, is there evidence of creation/existence millions of years ago, before humans came to be? Surely, if he made humans in that same week he created the world, there shouldn't have been living creatures beforehand? If God exists, can you explain this?


I don't believe the bible to be the literal word of God, so someone else who feels differently may feel free to answer this.

Any discussion of the Big Bang theory would be incomplete without asking the question, what about God? This is because cosmogony (the study of the origin of the universe) is an area where science and theology meet. Creation was a supernatural event. That is, it took place outside of the natural realm. This fact begs the question: is there anything else which exists outside of the natural realm? Specifically, is there a master Architect out there? We know that this universe had a beginning. Was God the "First Cause"?

[Mentor]

I don't believe the bible to be the literal word of God, so someone else who feels differently may feel free to answer this.

Any discussion of the Big Bang theory would be incomplete without asking the question, what about God? This is because cosmogony (the study of the origin of the universe) is an area where science and theology meet. Creation was a supernatural event. That is, it took place outside of the natural realm. This fact begs the question: is there anything else which exists outside of the natural realm? Specifically, is there a master Architect out there? We know that this universe had a beginning. Was God the "First Cause"?
this is again hypoctoitcal, if the univce need first cause for the big bang to happen. Then god would have need creaton, or first cause for him to come around for him to be able to do it?

[Forest-Law]

this is again hypoctoitcal, if the univce need first cause for the big bang to happen. Then god would have need creaton, or first cause for him to come around for him to be able to do it?

God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so does not need a cause. (bear with me) In addition, Einstein’s general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linkd to matter and space. So time itslf would have begun along wiht matter and space at the beginning of the universe. Since god, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therfore He is not limited by the time dimension He creatd, so he has no begining in time. Therefore he does not have, or need to have, a cause.

In contrast, there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning. I'll explain one, which goes as following;

- The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.

If the total amount of mass-energy is limited, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever.

it is selfevident that things tht begin have a cause—no one really denies it in their heart. All science, history and law enforcment would collapse if this law of cause and effect were denied. Also, the universe cannot be selfcaused —nohting can create itself, because it would need to exist before it came into existence, a logical absurdity.

Which ever way you look at it — the evidence from the Bible, the incredibly complex, organized information in living things, or the origin of the universe — the conclusion in an all-powerful, all-knowing creator god, is completely viable.

[Mentor]

God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so does not need a cause. (bear with me) In addition, Einstein’s general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linkd to matter and space. So time itslf would have begun along wiht matter and space at the beginning of the universe. Since god, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therfore He is not limited by the time dimension He creatd, so he has no begining in time. Therefore he does not have, or need to have, a cause.If u still think einstaines theary of realtivy is the scintific argument of today no wonder u dont get it? his thearys anchent and been revinced and discreted 1000s of times, where now in the relms of string theary, and m theary etc etc.






In contrast, there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning. I'll explain one, which goes as following;

- The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.

If the total amount of mass-energy is limited, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever.

it is selfevident that things tht begin have a cause—no one really denies it in their heart. All science, history and law enforcment would collapse if this law of cause and effect were denied. Also, the universe cannot be selfcaused —nohting can create itself, because it would need to exist before it came into existence, a logical absurdity.

Thers proof that the univcer had a beinging, but no proof god had anything to do with it, and modern scinace is not based on cause an effect, quantom theary more aless dicredits that, and says thats stuff can happen without effect on a cosntant basis, its all startcical, there is a possibly i could walk threw a wall, but the statical chance is so low, i never will, but on a quantom level the scale is so small, this sort of thing would happen cosntantly "/


Which ever way you look at it — the evidence from the Bible, the incredibly complex, organized information in living things, or the origin of the universe — the conclusion in an all-powerful, all-knowing creator god, is completely viable.Or just natral evelotion over a long enog period of time, wich was demostated by the "Life" game, wich u can google and download and view for yoruself. Before exsiance, no time no nothjingt, there were no rules to abside by, so somthing could very easly creat itself, since theres nothing stoping it from dosing so, if thats not true, then god could also not be able to exist ouside of everything, and anyway that would mean a impersonal god, not like the one descirbed in the bible or any other text realkted to the cristan religion

[Drake]

I freaking hate you for making this :P Death is my worst fear. Heights nah Spiders nah. Death yes what happens after we die. I am Christian and believe in god but sometiems I doubt the religon. I just try to shake it off

[ssricky]

dont make god angry or else
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/ssricky/godsniper.gif

[Dentafrice1]

My Opinion- I think hes real im a christian i go to church every sunday , morning and night and wed. nights! So i believe in god

[kaut]

To an extent.

I find religions a waste of time though as they're created by man and man is fallible.

But you have to believe in something otherwise you live a pretty useless life. I don't care what you believe in, it could just be that you believe that a giant shoe created the earth and that if you were good then you'll get to lace it for all eternity. As long as it's something. And you can't really back up beliefs... it's called faith. It can't be proven, it can't be disproven. We'll just find out when we get there, but until then enjoy your life and hope that there's something after it.

[Addie]

I dont,I mean how could one guy create all dis, But monkeys turned into men and Adam and Eve were the 1st ppl on earth BUTT NAKED!

[Flunky-Sunset!]

To an extent.

I find religions a waste of time though as they're created by man and man is fallible.

But you have to believe in something otherwise you live a pretty useless life. I don't care what you believe in, it could just be that you believe that a giant shoe created the earth and that if you were good then you'll get to lace it for all eternity. As long as it's something. And you can't really back up beliefs... it's called faith. It can't be proven, it can't be disproven. We'll just find out when we get there, but until then enjoy your life and hope that there's something after it.

You can disprove faith. If I went off in a rocket, found a giant shoe - yet found it was a sculpture made out of licorice, unable of movement, or even, creation... I've disproved that faith. Whether people would deny it or not, that's up to them... (also, you could prove it exists if you take this giant supernatural shoe back to Earth, where it would promptly be put in a cage. Though being an allmighty being, maybe this shoe wouldn't consider the idea of going to Earth. You might be able to convince it to settle for being filmed, though. Am I going off topic?)


Which ever way you look at it — the evidence from the Bible, the incredibly complex, organized information in living things, or the origin of the universe — the conclusion in an all-powerful, all-knowing creator god, is completely viable.

As I've said before, living things have had millions of years to develop, adapt and evolve. As for the origin of the universe, I don't think anyone's going to agree on this. xD I can't see that the universe had any help beginning. But when the Sun exlodes, I guess this argument can die out with the human race...

Why is it essential that someone created the universe for us? Is it because we're the only planet, that we know of, that has life?

People used to explain away the unknown with witchcraft. They used to explain it with theories that have now been proven wrong. Why is God an exception to these examples in our history?


My Opinion- I think hes real im a christian i go to church every sunday , morning and night and wed. nights! So i believe in god

But you didn't say why you believe in God.

[Emicat]

Well, i do NOT beleive in god but there is a point here...

[Biseinen]

Well, i do NOT beleive in god but there is a point here...

Right, what point would that be exactly? o_O

[RedStratocas]

Okay, a few more things I noticed about religion:

I hate it when people's houses burn down, and they thank god they are alright... GOD JUST BURNED YOUR HOUSE DOWN, I WOULDNT BE THANKING HIM!

And when people ask why god lets bad things happen, and people answer "God works in mysterious ways". That didnt answer the question at all. We already know god (if he exists) works in mysterious ways, but why? That was the question

[Largo]

To me there is always a guardian as in God (in a respectful way). He/She is always looking over us and seeing what we are doing. So yes i do believe in God. Someone people might think that is funny but to me its not. Its soemthnig i believe in. If you don't back off. :)
Well do you, I mean, theres tons to argue over if there or isn't there...



I want to believe in God. I really do. And an afterlife.

It would be so great -- so reassuring, so comforting, so peaceful -- to know that there's Someone out there who's in control of a world that seems so out of control. That, despite all appearances, all things really do work together for good to them that love God. That an Eternal Reward awaits all of us (or at least, me) in a future life to compensate for all of the **** we have to put up with (some more than others) in this one. That in the end, I can look back on my existence and rejoice that all the balances are added up and everything has worked out to be just and fair.

This is just what religion (just about any religion) promises.

Except that it all sounds *way* too good to be true.

And if there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Of course, it might not be. Let's consider the possibilities.

Ah, but that's where things get really hairy. There are so many possibilities, and God has done a really miserable job of making Himself(1) clear about which ones are the right ones. Each possibility has its share of adherents, all of whom are convinced (by the spirit, or by some analogous means) that their beliefs are the "right" ones.

(Footnote 1: In this essay, I will chauvinistically use male pronouns to refer to Deity, because it makes the narrative flow more smoothly than saying He/She/It/They all the time. Apologies in advance.)

So, searching them out by the spirit doesn't tell us anything, since the spirit is demonstrably telling one thing to one person and another thing to another person. How about logic and reason? Well, logic and reason are no help, because each one of these belief systems is demonstrably self-contradictory in one way or another. And what's more, the adherents of those belief systems don't see those things as contradictory at all -- they have found ways to explain these things away so that they don't seem like contradictions after all ... not to the believers, anyway. One example: two books of the New Testament say that Mary saw one angel at Jesus's tomb, and two more say that there were two angels at Jesus's tomb. Clearly, there *were* two there, but Mary only *saw* one of them. It all makes sense ... if you believe.

Ah, and that's really the bottom line, isn't it. Logic and sound reasoning are "misleading", and even spiritual witnesses aren't reliable -- but that leap of faith, that will answer all your doubts. Just believe. As I've been told so often, "Seeing isn't believing; believing is seeing." ... which is a clever way of saying that "we who are believers, we don't let troublesome contradictions get in our way; we've made that 'leap of faith', which renders doubts and contradictions irrelevant. God will make everything clear, in His Own good time. Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to sit quietly and wait for the Second Coming (or some analogous occurrence), at which time, all these things will be made clear."

Sorry, but I just can't buy that. If there is a God, He wouldn't have discontinuities that would need explaining, or at least, He wouldn't wait forever to make them understandable to the average mortal mind. If there is a God, He wouldn't *want* me to suspend reason and doubt and critical analysis for the sake of a "just believe, and that will make everything all right" mentality -- on the contrary, He would welcome questions and doubts and fears, and would explain them clearly and understandably. He loves me, after all, presumably, right? He wants me to know the truth. So why all the (apparently deliberate) secrecy? He's my Parent, after all, in at least some metaphorical sense, right? Why then does He act so much like an absent father?

If God could create the universe, God could speak to me and help me understand Him. God wouldn't need a spokesperson, and wouldn't need a book, and wouldn't need a Holy Spirit. If God wants me to know Him, He knows where to find me.

Until then -- to be truthful -- I'm really better off trusting in the good old arm of flesh. The arm of flesh doesn't let me down. I pray to God, asking for guidance, and what happens? Nothing. I trust in the arm of flesh -- work hard, keep my nose clean -- and I get ahead in the world. I pay tithing, hoping that God will open the windows of heaven, and what happens? Nothing. But if I put that 10% into my savings now I've got a retirement to look forward to. I believe that God created the world in 6 days, 6000 years ago, and how does that help me understand the observable universe? Not at all. On the contrary, it forces me to come up with clever theories about how the light from stars tens of thousands of light years away is already arriving here on earth, and how dinosaur fossils can be millions of years old, and on and on. But if I believe that the universe is billions of years old, that it evolved into what it is now -- then the observable evidence fits neatly into place and makes all kinds of sense, thank you.

In the end, I've been unable to discover any system of belief -- Christian or otherwise -- in which God can exist without colliding with observable evidence in significant ways.

And so, after looking for God using logic and reason, using blind faith, using spiritual witnesses, using written scriptures -- in short, using any and all means available to us -- God simply fails to emerge as a viable concept, much less a living, breathing, existing being. I really want to believe that there's Someone out there who will make everything all right. I suspect that we all do. I suspect that it's built into us, a holdover from our childhoods. But eventually we have to grow up, and face facts. There is no one out there who has all the answers. We're on our own for that. I have come to the conclusion that the sooner we get ahold of that and hang onto it, the happier we will all be.

So that leads to what I think, what about you?

[jgosden]

I do think there is a God and a God that I can have a personal relationship with.

When you look at the world can you really think, this all happened by chance, see I can't i know that there was a creator and this was not just a big bang. You see the world is so complex and so is the human body everything is so perfectly formed.

You could argue that scientifically there may have been a big bang many christians believe such a thing but the key to christiananity comes at somewhere something has to have happened something had to be there in order to create the world. And some people argue the whole 7 days as "periods of time" but thats not really important.

Another important thing is there is SIN in the world, otherwords all the stuff we have done wrong which means that there is suffering many people will argue that if there was a God then wouldn't he take away suffering but this is because of the wrong doing of the world and in some ways its the price that is paid. I won't go into much more detail because you will tell me to shut up

Finally we all have free will we can choose whether we do or not believe because the world would not work if we were all robots , God gave us a choice


If God could create the universe, God could speak to me and help me understand Him. God wouldn't need a spokesperson, and wouldn't need a book, and wouldn't need a Holy Spirit. If God wants me to know Him, He knows where to find me.

Good Point and some many people struggle with. The thing is though God does speak to people but probably not in the way you would expect. If your a christian then you believe the book is Gods Word and so God can speak to you through it. Also God commonly speaks through other people and what they say which is important. And its often in the quiet times where you can here God its not always easy and he is mysterious and hard to understand!

We will never all understand the christian faith or God in general because there people will always have arguements but sometimes you can just "feel" God and sense his presense and it is in those times you just know deep down that there is a God. Now i have been a christian for a long time so will have different views to you guys i accept that. During the summer i went on a Youth Christian confrence with 11,000 others and it was awesome seeing God at work

Hey slate me as much as you like and ask questions if you like because it is something i have strong views on. But everyone is entiled to there opinion just as much as you are to yours! If you want to ask me anything send us a PM and i promise to get back to you!!

Thanks
Jon!

[Steph]

Gods supposed to be ominsiant, meaing he already knew what we would do before we did it, so why did he need to test us to start with? Plus he made us that way, knowing the way he made us ment we would, why is he punishing us, for whats oviosly his mistake?
Ok so you have a point there, but lets say "he" gave them the choice. He knew they were gonna take the apple, but he warned them anyways, to see if they hopefully listened and knew they had done wrong, and maybe changed their actions. If that kinda makes any sense...oh well I know what I'm on about.

[jgosden]

It all comes down to Free Will you see if your a christian you believe that God gave us freewill for us to choose because otherwise we would be like robots.

And so God knew this would happen all the time but he didn't want it to. However the important part of the story comes later on when God sent his son because of what we had all done wrong as a choice of free will we all mess up but God was saying let Jesus talk what you have done on him so you can be pure in my eyes and go to heaven

:) Keep asking questions!

[Mentor]

Ok so you have a point there, but lets say "he" gave them the choice. He knew they were gonna take the apple, but he warned them anyways, to see if they hopefully listened and knew they had done wrong, and maybe changed their actions. If that kinda makes any sense...oh well I know what I'm on about.
but the way he had made us think, ment that we would do it anyway, he new that already, so even thogh he warned us he still new what we would do, so why do the test to start with ?

[jgosden]

Its not a test, its a choice, technically and this is where it gets confusing. God knew what would happen but that is because he is all knowing. However we are not programmed to all follow what we are told and do Gods way and we all ***** up.. However much he had the plan formed and knew what he was doing he was still dissapointed because they were still disobediant. It is like you ask someone to do something and they have the choice yet you know what they will do but you would still be dissapointed.

To be honest it does get confusing no human can have all the answers and fully understand something so much greater than we are!

[Biseinen]

It's not greater than we are and you can't prove that because no one can, like you said, no human. (That involves every religious person that believes in god) on this planet can prove this.

Without proof of anything, like you said (No human can prove he exists) 'God' will remain a fictional character which will 'cause war and suffering.

God is there for thos who are afraid to die, man created the bible and man lies.

[Flunky-Sunset!]

Man created the Dictionary. Does that mean, considering man "lies", that the dictionary is full of lies? Am I lying right now? If man lies, are you lying in what you just wrote? I reckon "man has the ability to lie" would be less... accusing? Less of a statement? Whatever, I'm going off topic again. Even if the Bible is a lie, it is one that brings a great source of comfort to those who believe in God. (Even if I'm not one of those.)

Who would have the heart to tell all those who worship God, that he's fake, if evidence was ever uncovered that he didn't exist?

[Steven]

Man created the Dictionary. Does that mean, considering man "lies", that the dictionary is full of lies? Am I lying right now? If man lies, are you lying in what you just wrote? I reckon "man has the ability to lie" would be less... accusing? Less of a statement? Whatever, I'm going off topic again. Even if the Bible is a lie, it is one that brings a great source of comfort to those who believe in God. (Even if I'm not one of those.)

Who would have the heart to tell all those who worship God, that he's fake, if evidence was ever uncovered that he didn't exist?

thats was very badly said -lies- :(

haha well said " :eusa_danc "

[Flunky-Sunset!]

what is that smiley meant to mean? o.o
it's all um... confusing. =[

[Steven]

it's um... "Wayhey , it's almost the weekend!"

[Flunky-Sunset!]

Lmao... o_O;

[Biseinen]

What I meant was man has the ability to lie.

[Flunky-Sunset!]

I thought so... overlooking that made it sound so much more accusing. ^_^;

[Biseinen]

;) I always do miss type the important parts. :p


What makes me think is that lots of peopel follow the bible, word for word. (Jehova Witnesses come to mind...) And if it said something like... "You must hop on your right foot 3 days a week for 6 hours then do kartwheels for an hour" Would they do it?

I asked a Jehova witness the other day and he said "Don't be stupid, god would never put that!" How would he know?

[Pulchritudinous]

I do not believe in God, I think people needed reassurance many years ago, and they didn't have the technology we have to explain the world to them.

So whats the easy answer for them?..
To believe a man exists who is more superior than themselves, who is ultimately there for them every minute of the day, someone to go to when in need, someone to advise you on how to live your life, basically complete reasurrance.


Religion is fading, and it's most probably because people think 'God, yeah right..', we don't need something to blame or understand the changes around us anymore.

(I'm really sorry, that essay probably took you ages, but I didn't read it all nor have I read any previous posts).

[Mentor]

Its not a test, its a choice, technically and this is where it gets confusing. God knew what would happen but that is because he is all knowing. However we are not programmed to all follow what we are told and do Gods way and we all ***** up.. However much he had the plan formed and knew what he was doing he was still dissapointed because they were still disobediant. It is like you ask someone to do something and they have the choice yet you know what they will do but you would still be dissapointed.

To be honest it does get confusing no human can have all the answers and fully understand something so much greater than we are!
personaly i belive the oppersit, we are far greater than god, since we "humans" created him, and the bible as a way to explaine what was once unexsplainble, and that was then perveced in to the properganda, filled **** pile the bible is today. Athogh since most the stuff the bible tryed to explaine has now been exsplained corractly and actaly makes sence, there no any real need for it in the modern day, wich is why i agree with those who say religion is dieng out

[Forest-Law]

personaly i belive the oppersit, we are far greater than god, since we "humans" created him, and the bible as a way to explaine what was once unexsplainble, and that was then perveced in to the properganda, filled **** pile the bible is today. Athogh since most the stuff the bible tryed to explaine has now been exsplained corractly and actaly makes sence, there no any real need for it in the modern day, wich is why i agree with those who say religion is dieng out

i believe the Bible to be God's inspired word.

The Bible didn't just fall from heaven with a table of contents on page one. The chruch was alive and well for decades before the New Testament was even written - and for centuries before the canon was "canonized" by bishops or whatever in the fourth century. The books that make up the Bible as we have it today were shared, assembled, and approved over time by the christian community to enhance the belief in God. But the physical and evidential proof of God still exists in my mind. I wouldn't say I'm agnostic for this because I have followed the catholic faith and still believe in it today. I don't agree with parts but I believe in God. And for that I think I'll be forgiven.

[Mentor]

i believe the Bible to be God's inspired word.

The Bible didn't just fall from heaven with a table of contents on page one. The chruch was alive and well for decades before the New Testament was even written - and for centuries before the canon was "canonized" by bishops or whatever in the fourth century. The books that make up the Bible as we have it today were shared, assembled, and approved over time by the christian community to enhance the belief in God. But the physical and evidential proof of God still exists in my mind. I wouldn't say I'm agnostic for this because I have followed the catholic faith and still believe in it today. I don't agree with parts but I believe in God. And for that I think I'll be forgiven.
The church was alive millions of years in that sence, as of religion, but what your refering to is judaism, wich is a diffent religion from the cristan one, and the god decribed is very diffent from the new tesiment one, if u read it, just lazy bugger paul, who wrote the new testiment just nicked it.
(yes the WHOLE new testiment was writen by a single man named paul, who had no conection to any of the stories in the bible at all, writen mainly in the form of letters, as he started the chruch and was mainly giving guid lines to all the arias of wich the chruched served "/)

[jgosden]

The church was alive millions of years in that sence, as of religion, but what your refering to is judaism, wich is a diffent religion from the cristan one, and the god decribed is very diffent from the new tesiment one, if u read it, just lazy bugger paul, who wrote the new testiment just nicked it.
(yes the WHOLE new testiment was writen by a single man named paul, who had no conection to any of the stories in the bible at all, writen mainly in the form of letters, as he started the chruch and was mainly giving guid lines to all the arias of wich the chruched served "/)

Actually Mentor your wrong there it is very clear throughout the Bible if you study it how this is THE SAMEn GOD!!. You see throughout the old testament it all points to jesus all the way through and in the new we see all these prophecys come true as God said which would say this is the same God.

it is true that a fair bit of the new testament is written by Paul there are many other such as Luke, John , Matthew, Mark etc.. Luke wrote books such as Acts and John wrote Revelation possibly the most confusing book ever!

[Mentor]

Actually Mentor your wrong there it is very clear throughout the Bible if you study it how this is THE SAMEn GOD!!. You see throughout the old testament it all points to jesus all the way through and in the new we see all these prophecys come true as God said which would say this is the same God.

it is true that a fair bit of the new testament is written by Paul there are many other such as Luke, John , Matthew, Mark etc.. Luke wrote books such as Acts and John wrote Revelation possibly the most confusing book ever!
Ok.

Old testimnet god.
If you dont belive in me ill kill all your oldest sons, murder women and childern, and plage anyone who oppose me.

new testimnet god.
Turn the other cheek.

That just dont quite match up to me "/

[Flunky-Sunset!]

Ok.

Old testimnet god.
If you dont belive in me ill kill all your oldest sons, murder women and childern, and plage anyone who oppose me.

new testimnet god.
Turn the other cheek.

That just dont quite match up to me "/

Damn, that made me laugh. He's right, you know.

[Biseinen]

[Nods]

Religion is pants because of these 'things'.

[ReInfected]

i just hope a heaven exsists

[JT-Fan]

I belive in more than one god but yes I belive in god.

[lust]

i just hope a heaven exsists
huge bump...

[helenishot]

gee this thread is exactly a year old :l